BS: Are we anti-Irish?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:48 AM

sorry, have to say, but demanding a link to Guets's story about a couple arrested in 1974 is a bit silly, really. Where would you find such a link for a personal story like that?

So if I was to say, for instance, that I know a man who saw Nickhere steal all the Azaleas from his front garden everyone should just take that at face value? Apart from the fact that no one demanded anything I think it is pretty fair for someone to ask for confirmation of things posted as 'facts'. Otherwise what is the point? We could all make things up. Mind you, many probably do! I am still waiting for any sort of confirmation that a woman in Manchester was arrested for being Scottish!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:08 AM

Sorry....who wants what confirmed?

I got lost in all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:29 AM

DtG

If you get any kind of polite answer, come & find me yeah?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Bobby Sands
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:34 AM

I won the "Irish slimmer of the year" award in 1981 you know.
Begad,Begorrah and behave yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Gus
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:39 AM

The Muslim community are rapidly replacing the Irish as Britain's suspect community. The present terrorist legislation is being used by the police and security services to disrupt Muslim local communities in a similar way to that in which the Prevention of Terrorism Act was used against the Irish for decades.


Many Muslim leaders now believe disruption is beginning to alienate communities from the police. This approach is similar to that adopted toward the Irish community using the Prevention of Terrorism Act. A crime correspondent on a national newspaper who previously worked in Northern Ireland draws the parallel. "They are trying to strike a balance between rattling some in the community while keeping the community as a whole onside. In Northern Ireland we have seen how such an approach can drive people onto the terrorists side. The police need to try to get it right.

The Muslims are being seen as the new Irish in that they are viewed as the suspect community. When the Prevention of Terrorism Act (PTA) was brought in following the Birmingham and Guildford pub bombings in 1974 the Irish became a suspect community. Many were stopped at ports and airports. Houses were raided and people detained for anything from a few hours to seven days. Most were then released without charge, but I see this is enough to consider some of them guilty as seen on this site.

Little has changed. 7,052 were detained under the PTA between November 29, 1974 and December 31, 1991.

The miscarriages of justice involving the Birmingham Six, Judith Ward, the Guildford Four and the Maguires proved the racism of the policing and intelligence operations. The police, intelligence services and their bosses in government were quite happy to see innocent Irish people remain in prison for long periods of time. The racism at the time of the pub bombings extended to racist attacks on Irish people in Birmingham not being followed up by police in that area.

The effect of the operation of the PTA and the miscarriages of justice was to make Irish recall what they were doing and where they were at the time of a bombing. In Liverpool many Irish went absent from work the day after a bombing atrocity for fear of reprisals.

The PTA and miscarriages of justice had a salutary effect on the Irish resulting in it effectively retreating into the community. The Irish clubs developed as a network of havens where people could go and mix with their own. On the political front the Irish largely retreated from the scene. Despite being the largest ethnic minority in Britain, the community certainly didn't pull its weight on the political scene. It has only been with the advent of the Northern Ireland peace process and an end to the bombing that the Irish have been able to emerge and start to assert themselves fully both in a political and cultural sense in Britain.

From the point of view of safety from terrorism, the withdrawal of a community back in on itself is unhealthy. For the few terrorists around who may be plotting bomb attacks there is likely to be far more opportunity to hide. The feeling of a community under threat from the rest of the society will also foster sympathy for such individuals.We must also remember, bombings on mainland Britain was a reaction to British soldiers murdering men,women and children on the streets of Ulster.

In attempting to counter terrorism there is every danger that the British devided Communities that have lived side by side and contributed to British society for years then they suddenly began to feel like outcasts. Perhaps not surprisingly with the war in Ireland over, the Irish have now very much assimilated with British society. They have moved a step up the multiracial ladder. The people at bottom, getting kicked around now are the Muslims - the Irish should empathise with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Alison M
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:46 AM

All I did is reply to Guest Nick, because of his interesting story about visiting England. I don't have any prove about my friend in Manchester being arrested for having an Scottish accent that sounded like an northern Irish accent, as it was a long time ago now. The last I heard from her she had moved back to Scotland. It was her neighbours who called the police, because her parents came to deliver late evening, which was in the dark because they have been travelling all day from Scotland, some of her personal items, which were DVDs, Videos, and Children's books as she had a young daughter. I guess her suspious neighbours thought it was explosives etc. I was just sharing an interest with Nick about this story my friend told me during that time, because I asked her where she had been as I had not seen her for over a week. There is nothing to argue here and my friend does not have a reason to lie to me either. She only told me because I asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:15 AM

Of course you don't have to prove it Alison. Any more than I have to prove it if I say that I know someone who was arrested for wearing odd socks. It does make it a pretty pointless discussion if anyone can wave any unsubstatiated accusation about as if it were fact. If we can say what we like in a debate without being able to back up the statement we may as well pack it in now.

I am also pretty confused by your last statement. She only told me because I asked. Do you often start convesations by asking people if they have ever been arrested on suspicion of terrorism? I am sure you are making a valid point in there somewhere but between the heresay and confusing terminology I am afraid I cannot for the life of me think what it can be.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: weerover
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:38 AM

Dave, I personally find it more convincing if someone relates a direct experience than (say) points to a newspaper story – I know the papers don't always tell the whole truth!
You may choose not to believe what someone says, for whatever reason. You may even say, "I find that very hard to believe", which is a (barely) polite way of saying "You lie". I do not know Alison, but at the moment I have no reason to doubt what she says. I can certainly believe someone being under suspicion for having a particular accent: I have first-hand experience of seeing someone arrested (and charged, but found not guilty) for less. I will not elaborate further as I have no documentary evidence.

wr

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:04 AM

Agreed, wr, direct experience is good. Alison has never said she had direct experience. She did not see, hear or experience the arrest. It was what someone told her. In other words just heresay. It adds nothing to the debate. As to why the debate was opened up again after 10 months you would have to ask Alison - It was her that resurected it. I have my suspicions but rather than voice them with no evidence I would rather keep quiet:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Alison M
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:00 PM

"She only told me because I asked. Do you often start convesations by asking people if they have ever been arrested on suspicion of terrorism?"

Dave, at that time my friend and I were at Collage. We had arranged to meet up first thing on that Monday morning to do some studying before lessons, but she never showed, which was unusual for her not to show up. A week went by and I asked her where she had been then she told me. She told me it was a frightening and awful experience for her, as I guess I just remembered it and also I was sharing this story with Nick. I don't expect anyone to believe me, but if Nick was a member I would have pm the story to him instead. Kind Regards.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:24 PM

Part one. my friend had just moved house to live in Manchester and she was arrested because her new neighbours were suspicious of her accent that sounded a bit like an northern Irish person. It turned out that she was actually from West Scotland and never have been to visit Ireland in her life and none of her family came from Ireland either

Part two The last I heard from her she had moved back to Scotland. It was her neighbours who called the police, because her parents came to deliver late evening, which was in the dark because they have been travelling all day from Scotland, some of her personal items, which were DVDs, Videos, and Children's books as she had a young daughter

Part three Dave, at that time my friend and I were at Collage. We had arranged to meet up first thing on that Monday morning to do some studying before lessons, but she never showed, which was unusual for her not to show

So, Alison, this good friend of yours had just moved to Manchester where, presumably, you were both at college. It was just after one of the Manchester bombings which were December 1992 and June 1996. Neither of which seem to be the date to start college. Regardless of that she had been driving all night from Scotland with her young daughter and her parents had arrived late with DVDs, Videos and books. While she was about all this she had arranged to meet you on Monday morning. OK. Still possible. Her 'crime' was having a Scottish accent. Presumamably she could prove that she was from Scotland. That the DVDs (Lucky them - Having a DVD player as a poor student 10 - 14 years ago!), Videos and childrens books were not explosive I would guess is quite apparant.

All this time the little girl is either left on her own or the aging parents have to take her back to Scotland for a week while your good friend proves she is not Irish. Then, after you being so worried about her she moved back to Scotland which was, in your own words, the last you ever heard of this good friend.

Can I offer some advice, Alison. You are at liberty to ignore it. Look at what you have said previously before you post your next comment. If you are consistant and believable more people will atke notice. Can I also ask a question. Why, when this thread has been dormant for 10 months, did you decide to resurrect it?

Looking forward to your next installment.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:00 PM

Greetings Dave,
The disc played fine on my player thanks.
Not one of his best though. Not surprised it is not widely screened.

nice work with Alison.
What is she/he trying to achieve do you think?

Thanks again,
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:28 PM

Cheers Keith - Glad you enjoyed it:-)

I'm not sure what Alison is up to. Maybe you can explain yourself, Alison? You don't have to of course but I think your Mudcat posting career may be better received if you could. Perhaps that isn't important? Ah well...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:39 PM

You're getting there slowly but surely. Now all you need to realise is that you have been hook, lined and sinkered by the biggest kidder on here and still don't realise that yet. Ah well takes time eh? He's a good friend is he?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:43 PM

Don't understand that, Guest, sorry. I started the thread. Are you suggesting that I am the biggest kidder on here? Or are you suggesting it is Alison because she resurected the thread? You reference to 'he's a good fried' seems to suggest you are refering to a male so is that me? Would you please explain.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:55 PM

Sorry for being so vague. This kind of thread breeds it. No you are the kidded not the kidder. You'll have to work the rest out yourself. You won't believe it unless you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Alison M
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:59 PM

Dave, it must have been after the June 1996 then, as it was all hyped up in the media for sometime after the Manchester bombing period. I cannot remember the full details and I am not up to anything, I was just replying to Nick that's all. I am not lying about this story, as I don't see the point in lying. Who cares really.      

About this thread, so far as I can remember my first ever message was on this thread as I was new on here and I just wanted to say that I was not anti Irish. I guess I just wanted to reply to Nick here below too, which is on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:56 PM

I will go elsewhere to another thread, Kind Regards.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:16 PM

Why would people be arrested on suspicion when there is no terrorist activity then, Alison. There hasn't been any in Manchester since 1996. Can you let us know when it was at least so we can try to determine why your good friend who you haven't seen since was arrested.

I am honestly trying to help. Maybe it wasn't as you remember. Maybe your friend didn't tell you the whole truth? If you were indeed students perhaps your lodgings were in Hulme or Moss Side. Maybe the neighbours saw packages being delivered in the early hours and thought they were drugs?

If your first post really was on this thread how did you find it? It was certainly not on the either the music or BS sections and hadn't been for 10 months. Come on, I'm trying to throw you a life-line here. Let us know you are not talking complete bollocks.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Alison M
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:10 PM

Dave, I meant she got arrested some weeks after the bombings took place, but which one I don't know except it was in Manchester. The problem is I cannot remember which year it actually was except it was on the 90s. We attended College part time in Cheltenham not in Manchester, I was living at home and she was staying with another friend of hers, which was not far from the College. I attended this College in 1993 to 1997 part time and she attened between one or two of those years. In that time she had moved to South of Manchester then two weeks after that she got arrested in the early hours of that Monday morning. Before that her parents travelled down from Scotland with some of her personal items and arrived late evening deliver them to her house. I was only friends with her for about a year, as after that ordeal she left College and went back to live in Scotland at her parents house. I never saw her again. I just found her story was interesting to tell Nick.

About the thread, I was trying out the filter button to search subjects to do with the word "Irish" and found it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Oakville
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:44 PM

The interrogation of this young lady is nothing short of ridiculous and cannot be allowed to continue.

It's been said it on many occasions until I'm almost sick hearing of it, you seem to want an exclusive little group of your own.

Pray tell me, what TRUTH is emerging? Are you referring to the TRUTH that Alison's friend lied? Get your facts right before making wild, unsubstantiated allegations against members, Alison in particular. Why do you keep bleating on about it, you have a lot to answer for Keith A of Hertford.

Stop badgering her, at every opportunity with all this stupid innuendo and speculation. It's nothing less than a 'witchhunt'. Grow up and get to grips with the REAL world, not the fantasy land some of you prefer to be a part of.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:01 PM

The only fantasy here is being spun by 'alison'. There are kangaroos at the bottom of the hole 'she' is digging.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Oakville
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:21 PM

That is obnoxious to rouse moral indignation.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:48 PM

*sigh*

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Epona
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 11:26 PM

Welcome, Nickhere! Beware the sneaky pms.....

I was shocked to see this thread again! I thought for sure Keith had more stunning insight for us. Alas, my hopes and dreams were crushed.

:)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 11:51 PM

yes to think this thread had had more interest than my one about Errol Flynns willy.

I'm flabbergasted.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 03:46 AM

Guest, Oakville. What are you on? Keith is not 'bleating on' about anything. It is me asking Alison questions to which she doesn't seem to have sensible answers.

Epona - Your posts are usualy good. How come you are also accusing Keith of something he is not guilty of? Alison resurected the thread . Keith has made a couple of replies since. Why did you assume it's resurgence had something to do with him?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 04:47 AM

This thread is the greatest evidence of a people in decline perhaps ever seen. Maybe its surpassed by the "Proud to be a British" site. Its a close thing.But Wow! this is a cultural anthropologists dream to see a micro-culture and its myths and beliefs implode in real time. Quite extraordinary. And to see their opponents tease and laugh at them is really quite amazing. Sad too, but then again what goes around, comes around. Students will study this in years to come. Agreed Epona.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 04:53 AM

My god you're right, we've done something of cultural significance at last

I'm so proud!

You delude yourself guest - its not that easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:05 AM

I'm glad you understood it WLD - Baffled the hell out of me!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:22 AM

I don't think there has been a decent thread about Ireland for some time. I tend to come in on the defensive. This thread was good, but it has went off the rails a bit,probably best to allow it die naturally. I don't know if it's just me, but I can't make head nor tail of some of the posts recently. Would it not be best to just ignore the silly crap guest posts ? answering them seems to send it all over the place, maybe the purpose of the poster. There are a lot of subjects we could talk about, and agree to ignore the arsehole guests.
Topics such as,

Attitudes in Ireland since the peace deal.

Dissidents

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:23 AM

F. it, I hit the button before I finished it, await part two please.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Alison M
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:26 AM

Guest Oakville, I am not going to reply anymore to this story about my friend, as I would only be just repeating meself over and over. I cannot prove whether my friend during that time was lying to me or not, but this is the end of this story. Kind Regards.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:31 AM

Dissident Republicans and Loyalists fight on.
Short weekend breaks in Ireland.
The troubles, a tour guide.
A new generation, post troubles.
Reconciliation, a process of restoring relationships.
Were both sides wrong ? Or was it only Republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:46 AM

A voice of reason at last. Aye - Give it up please. Alison resurected it and probably now regrets doing so. I started it and thought it had reached a sucessful conclusion last October. Let it fall of the end again.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: weerover
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 07:13 AM

Dave, again I have to say I see no reason to disbelieve Alison. I know absolutely nothing about her except that she is probably female. If she had concocted this story for whatever reason I reckon she would have made sure the details were watertight: the apparent vagueness and/or inconsistency is just what I would expect of a story from my own first-hand experience of events ten years ago. I believe things happened pretty much as Alison relates until someone offers evidence to the contrary. If you choose not to believe her, fine.

wr

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Epona
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 11:22 AM

Oh Dave. I don't assume the resurgence had anything to do with him - but writing it made me laugh, as it's doing now...If humor is lost on this thread, I shall go try another!

:)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Nickhere
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 07:27 PM

Hi Keith! Sorry about the long, long delay, but I only got back from holidays recently (in Bosnia of all places, but that's another story) and lots of other stuff happening, so I didn't really have time to log in.
Yes, I do like folk music, quite a lot in fact. I've been playing the guitar for the last 15 or 16 years, lots of different styles. I especially like old time American stuff, mountain music or whatever people call it, stuff like that. But I also go in for stuff like Buffy Saint-Marie (though to be honest, while I can strum the chords, there's no way I could sing like her even if I tried, so I have to adapt it a bit!). Blues is another firm favourite - Mississipi John Hurt, Son House, Bukka White etc., again, the 20s and 30s my favourite period, the style had changed quite a bit by the 40s. Myabe some wouldn't regard it as strictly folk, but I reckon a lot of blues and folk intertwine and it's hard to define it as one or the other. Then there's Irish folk music of course, since I come from Ireland, and heard a lot of it growing up and still do. That's one of the things I like best about Ireland - almost anywhere you go in the country you'll find live music being played in pubs etc., by very talented (and, ok, sometimes not so talented, but passable anyway) musicians. I travel a lot to Italy, and that tradition is almost non-existent now. You won't get much more than a CD of Afro-celt in any Irish pub in Rome or Florence. I gather they have more of a musical tradition further south, tarantellas, arias and so on, though I don't often go further south than Rome. I like the Neapolitan tradition of singing: Santa Lucia, O Sole Mio - hard to beat those tunes. I regard Naples as the Wales of Italy in that regard.
I occasionally play in pubs and stuff, just for my own and friends' amusement really, I am no wizard on the guitar. I also bring it to the woods when we have one of our all nighter BBQ / picnics during the summer (one for the solstice around June 21st has been a long-standing tradition with my friends and I) - it's hard to beat a few songs round a campfire, and being the musical country that it is, there's always several people who can play or have a song, so the guitar gets shared round. I use it at work too - I teach English to foreigners, and teaching them a song is a great way for them to learn English and have a little fun. So that's me, more or less. Good to be a signed up member instead of always logging in as Guest!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 07:58 PM

Oh dear Nickhere, did he question why you arrived here too ? sorry about that.