BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers

Subject: BS: IRAQ ISSUES WARRANT OF BRITISH SOLDIERS
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 04:39 AM

I see a judge in Iraq has issued an arrest warrant for two British soldiers who shot dead an Iraqi civilian and wounded others. The MOD has said British soldiers are immune from proecution in Iraqi civilian courts. How does this not surprise us.

Subject: RE: BS: IRAQ ISSUES WARRANT OF BRITISH SOLDIERS
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 05:13 AM

A political as well as a military quagmire.

The Shia clerics will want to retain UK military presence until their power has been guaranteed by adoption of the new constitution.
Then the real trouble will start.

As I said long ago the Iraqi elections have much more to do with factional power than democracy.

There seems to be no end to the short sightedness of the people who started this conflict. Other posters have remarked on the short term nature of Western political thought, and in Iraq they have been proved correct time and again.

Subject: RE: BS: IRAQ ISSUES WARRANT OF BRITISH SOLDIERS
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 08:11 AM

Johnny Howard (Deputy Sheriff of The World!) recently sent some Australian Federal Police to New Guinea to assist them in fighting corruption, etc. The New Guinea Supreme Court ruled as constitutionally invalid (and that the PNG Govt had no authority to make such an agreement) the agreement between the two countries that the Aussies were exempt from any prosecutions. Little Johnny pulled them all out immediately. they have sent a few back in, but they will now have no contact with the public, only serving in an advisory role training other police.

One wonders why a country would not want its citizens to be subject to the normal civilian laws of other countries under International Law unless there is a 'conspiracy' to destroy International Law, or something... too much 'Southern Hospitality' (Mint Juleps?) with Bush?

Subject: RE: BS: IRAQ ISSUES WARRANT OF BRITISH SOLDIERS
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 10:05 AM

International law would make war criminals of virtually all the members of the Bush Administration unilateral war lords as well as the Bilderbergs for conspiracy to murder.

I remember 2 years ago when a judge at the Hague went out on a limb and claimed that Rumsfeld and Bush could face charges in the International Court. It took less than 8 days for that judge to recant and virtually apologize.

I always wondered what kind of intimidation the judge and his country was under. Probably would make a great novel.

Subject: RE: BS: IRAQ ISSUES WARRANT OF BRITISH SOLDIERS
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 02:11 PM

I wonder if the same judge will insist on the arrest of the "rioters" responsible for setting a warrior personell carrier on fire? I think that few soldiers in that instance would have reacted in the way the Brits did (not shooting the crowd down). This showed that the soldiers in question were acting with great restraint as they could easily have caused many casualties in the crowd and not been reprimanded for it. I also wonder what plans (if any) are in place for the removal of troops........ sorry, crossing of fingers does not count. Could this be the new Northern Ireland for us?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 02:56 PM

You can't subject occupying troops to local laws. Occupying troops are the local laws. The Iraqi judge is simply playing politics and trying to show where the real power is.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 06:33 PM

Two foreigners dressed in civilian clothes are stopped, and it is found that their car is loaded with weapons. There is a gunfight in which a policeman is shot dead and others wounded. The two men are arrested. Subsequently armed colleagues of the arrested men attack the local jail. In spite of attempts by locals, using makeshift weapons, to prevent them, they break open the jail, and release 150 prisoners, including the two men under arrest.

I think that in most countries this would be likely to lead to some arrest warrants being issued. Just try getting away with that kind of stuff in London or New York...
..............................

There has to be a suspicion about what the two arrested men were up to. Perhaps they were not engaged in some kind of dirty tricks operation, such as have frequently taken place in other conflict situations, but the fact that they were apparently members of the British Army is not sufficient in itself to eliminate such suspicions, and some kind of independent investigation would be appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 07:27 PM

Great post McGrath of Harlow. Great answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 07:39 PM

But we all know just how corrupt the Iraqi Police are - the US media keeps telling us all the time... those soldiers were just really being very inconspicuous trying to spy on the suspects - hey look! it's bad enough that they didn't look physically right, but all that hardware was necessary to give 'local colour' and allow them to blend in - and you know they may just have been attacked by a heavily armed armoured bicycle.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 10:56 AM

With regard to McGrath's post:

The two civilians did identify themselves as British Forces personnel.

The standing agreement is that British Forces personnel arrested by civilian authorities are to be transferred into the custody of the British Military Authorities. In this case that was not done, even on specific instructions from the Iraqi Interior Minister, instead the two soldiers were handed over to a Shia Militia Group.

No prisoners were released, or allowed to escaped from the police station. Mainly due to the fact that the two soldiers were no longer there.

Yes Guest - "Great post McGrath of Harlow. Great answer."

Apart of course, from the fact that it was based on incorrect information.

By the bye - you don't have to have an independent investigation to determine what they were up to - it is blatantly obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 12:58 PM

Problem is ..Who's version of the "truth" do we believe.

I know our side are beyond reproach in that respect, but there's always a little niggling doubt....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 02:32 PM

I didn't say police station, I said jail.

"Aquil Jabbar, an Iraqi television cameraman who lives across the street from the Basra jail, said about 150 Iraqi prisoners fled as British commandos stormed inside and rescued their comrades."

From the report of an AP writer published on 20th Sept.

Soldiers in plain clothes who shoot policeman have to expect to be arrested. If there's some special agreement that says that it's OK for them to do stuff like that, it's the duty of the courts to decide if that is legal. Similarly if there is som3 agreement that they should be handed over for trial by the British military courts.

"Don't worry officer - I'm a British Soldier, you don't have to concern yourself about your colleague I have just killed."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:08 PM

A word to the wise McGrath.

You really must stop using such forceful epithets, you may upset your fellow posters...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 04:33 PM

With all of the reports of people being "arrested" by imposters dressed in police uniforms and then turning up dead, I think I'd be a little hesitant in allowing myself to be arrested, especially if I had been told that the local police weren't allowed to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 05 - 10:58 AM

It's murky out there. I don't blame anyone for resisting arrest in that sort of situaiton. And nor do I blame anyone for thinking these guys were decidely suspicious characters.

Of course since these guys were carrying arms they were prepared to use, and were in civilian clothes, strictly speaking they'd have been what Bush calls "illegal combatants". There are people banged up in Guantanamo Bay who have done far less than they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 03:26 AM

MGOH'S link is of course to the Guardian.

It refers to British Tanks breaking down the walls of the prison/jail/police station, whatever (BBC reports and most other media outlets reported it as being a police station). In fact only one vehicle went through the perimeter wall. This was done only after it had become clear that those inside the police station were refusing to follow instructions to release the men

The troops used were not British Commandos.

There were no shots fired - in the face of extreme provocation the troops involved showed remarkable restraint.

Both British and Iraqi Authorities have been very clear that no prisoners escaped from the police station.

Having entered the police station and found that the two soldiers were not there, police officers present were questioned as to the whereabouts of the soldiers. They were directed to a private residence in the hands of a Shia Militia Group - this building was stormed and the men released, the house was then flattened.

In the past soldiers serving with the SAS and SBS were normally subject to summary execution if captured.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 03:41 AM

Thank you for that Teribus. It's nice to see that 'trial by mudcat lefties' can sometimes be balanced out by the odd fact here and there!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:19 AM

Did I miss something"

Seems to me McGrath backed his statements with a source.

Teribus on the other hand...

doesn't seem to have a source.

Where did you get your facts?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:27 AM

Sources - BBC World News (both from their own reporters on location and from interviews held with the Iraqi Interior Minister and Prime Minister); CNN (Same as for BBC); UK News Papers other than the Guardian which is well known for not letting facts get in the way of a good story.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 12:53 PM

This guy believes all of the Britsh Army reports, there is one born every day, do not be taken in by these liars, lying about such events is part of the war machine.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 01:25 PM

If the SAS men had really been held by people close to the insurgency, does any one really believe that they would have been recovered alive?

McGrath's version of events was widely reported in all the "quality" papers before the UK govts' spin machine got into gear.

Excellent articlehere

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 02:43 PM

The Dissident Voice eh? No fear of biased reporting from them.

The author John Pilger discounts reports of those on the scene and writes authoritively from afar and that must be believed - maybe by the looney left but not by me. The BBC showed the police station they showed the house that was stormed, they interviewed the troops present, they showed the warrior personnel carrier being attacked. Although not a great fan of the BBC in this instance I am prepared to belive them.

Pilger asks a question regarding whether or not expolsives and a timing device were found in the car being used by the two soldiers, then carries on working on the premise that there was - total supposition on his part - not mentioned anywhere else - so Pilger must be correct - how bloody pathetic.

Ake, two points regarding the operation mounted to free the men.

Point 1 - why were they handed over to a militia group? Could it possibly have anything to do with the arrest the day before of the leader of one of the militia groups the day before. The soldiers were handed over to provide that group with some leverage, the soldiers would be no good to them dead.

Point 2 - the timescale of the arrest by police through to the mounting of the raid on the house was fairly swift and totally unexpected (It has not been done before).

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 02:51 PM

The Dissident Voice eh? No fear of biased reporting from them.

The author John Pilger discounts reports of those on the scene and writes authoritively from afar and that must be believed - maybe by the looney left but not by me. The BBC showed the police station they showed the house that was stormed, they interviewed the troops present, they showed the warrior personnel carrier being attacked. Although not a great fan of the BBC in this instance I am prepared to belive them.

Pilger asks a question regarding whether or not expolsives and a timing device were found in the car being used by the two soldiers, then carries on working on the premise that there was - total supposition on his part - not mentioned anywhere else - so Pilger must be correct - how bloody pathetic.

Ake, two points regarding the operation mounted to free the men.

Point 1 - why were they handed over to a militia group? Could it possibly have anything to do with the arrest the day before of the leader of one of the militia groups the day before. The soldiers were handed over to provide that group with some leverage, the soldiers would be no good to them dead.

Point 2 - the timescale of the arrest by police through to the mounting of the raid on the house was fairly swift and totally unexpected (It has not been done before).

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 03:11 PM

Great thing supposition.....but surely a new departure for Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 03:14 PM

ake,

try discussing the facts presented, rather than attacking the presenter...

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 03:33 PM

That wasn't an attack Bruce, that was a compliment.

I'll let you know when I'm making an attack...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 08:55 PM

My link was to a story by an AP reporter which was carried by the Guardian - which has a more convenient and accessible website than many other papers. Essentially similar stories were carried by a wide range of papers and broadcast media.

The only thing that is clear is that the facts of what actually happened were very unclear, with a range of often contradictory press statements, and statements by people who were on the spot in different capacities, being reported.

That essentially was my point. Just because the people on "our side" say something, that doesn't mean it should automatically be given greater credence than different versions by people on "the other side" - regardless of which side is "ours" and which is "the other".

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 09:06 PM

Sort of simalar to credence you gave to Piers Morgans pictures of UK abuse of Iraqi prisoners that proved to be completely false - eh Mcgrath?

As to similar stories being carried by many other papers - that all depends on timeline and emergence of fact - if what you and others contributing to this topic contended was true it would be front page news - its not guess why, my reading and understanding of events is 100% correct.

MGOH you essentially do not make points you merely stir in an extremely genteel fashion - that comes from your daliance with socialist journalism within the confines of the British Isles.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 11:00 PM

Well it looks like Iraq has re-issued arrest warrants for the two British soldiers who are accused of homicide. They reportedly shot two Iraqi policeman who were trying to arrest them.

As far as photos of torture of Iraqi prisoners, looks like you will get to see the real thing sometime soon, Teribus.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5311219,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 11:53 PM

Oh - it's two policemen now - I do wish these TWATS would make up their minds.

As far as the photos of torture of Iraqi prisoners goes Dianavan they are all old news - absolutely nothing new - what's your point?

My views with regard to the Guardian are fairly well known - I wouldn't even wipe my arse with it, so please do not quote it as the fount of all truth and reason - because it damn well isn't, and has been proved as such many times in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 11:15 AM

You're clutching at straws Teribus, the situation in Iraq has got much worse during your absence.
Your stance was always dodgy but now looks precarious....better to find firmer ground.

As I'm sure you know Pilger is very experienced and one of the top investigative journalists.   The article was printed in the New Statesman.

I suppose you believe that the British Army don't have a "dirty tricks" dept.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 11:40 AM

Has anyone else seen or heard this in the American media? I hardly bother to read or listen to the news anymore. Is it me who's just missed this issue (soldiers & policemen) or has this been out there for the American public to hear about? Maybe I should follow more closely again. I feel as if I get so much false or tilted shit that it turns my stomack though. I think I'm looking for a reality check. Thanks

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 06:44 PM

No Akenaton, the situation in Iraq was much worse under Saddam Hussein. Admittedly it's not all sweetness and light there at the moment and will in all probability get a bit worse before it gets a one hell of a lot better. That is based on things running their normal course (The insurrection in Malaya took just over fifteen years, Greece in the aftermath of the second world war took four years) The problems in Iraq were never going to be solved overnight and any who ever thought that was being terribly naive.

John Pilger is a well known journalist, trouble with investigative journalism is that it pays to invent something to investigate - if there is no news get out there and invent some - journalists do not rate very highly in my opinion, I know that I would never talk to one.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the New Statesman to the Guardian what the Spectator is to the Daily Telegraph?

On the contrary Akenaton, the British Army have got one of the best "dirty tricks" departments in the business - their old Soviet counterparts used to rate them very highly.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 07:38 PM

I'm glad to see you back, Teribus - but there really isn't any need to go lashing out in that petulant way.

"...the British Army have got one of the best "dirty tricks" departments in the business." True. So it's better not to take all that is said on its part or on its behalf at face value. That's a pretty good rule generally. Press officers spin stories, papers spin stories, witnesses get all subjective in what they recall and say...

There's a story in the papers today about a gorilla using a walking stick while wading through a swamp, to avoid falling down a hole. I think that shows the right attitude. (And the fact I take that link from the Houston Chronicle doesn't mean that I necessarily see the Houstion Chronicle as my media source of choice, Teribus, just that it's a convenient source here.)

...............................................

"The problems in Iraq were never going to be solved overnight and any who ever thought that was being terribly naive." The interesting question is how many of the public figures who claimed that it could all be sorted out rapidly, and that the invading forces would be welcomed were being naive, and how many were lying. I'd say that, on balance, there was more of them lying than naive.

The conventional way for politicians to try to claim the escape route of naivety is to start talking about "the luxury of exercising hindsight", when the actual point at issue is whether they actually exercised foresight, which isn't a luxury, but a duty.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 08:32 PM

Nice to be back McGrath,

Only thing is you and quite a number of people posting here don't take anything that is said on its part or on its behalf at face value.

I would be interested in hearing the names and reading the statements of the public figures who claimed that it could all be sorted out rapidly - I certainly don't recall any.

The MNF troops were initially welcomed with open arms by the Iraqi population. By and large that good will still exists between the population in and around Basra and the British Forces. Just to put it into perspective the UK has more troops in Northern Ireland in aid to civil power for a population of around 500,000, than in Basra population around 2,500,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 09:09 PM

"The conventional way for politicians to try to claim the escape route of naivety is to start talking about "the luxury of exercising hindsight", when the actual point at issue is whether they actually exercised foresight, which isn't a luxury, but a duty"

Brilliant McGrath!!....An epithet among epithets

Problem is Teribus, our method of "sorting things out" in Iraq is certain to make a bad situation much worse.
A bloody civil war seems inevitable,leading to an Iranian backed Islamic Rep in the south and an autonomous kurdish area in the north, continually under siege.

From our standpoint, the war in Iraq has definitely made the world a more dangerous place

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:00 AM

I certainly don't recall any.

Sometimes our recall button goes off-line...

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:17 AM

Teribus: I think you're probably right in deciding not to wipe your arse on the Guardian. The new style paper that they have just changed to, being shinier thsn the old kind, is already attracting criticism for being less good for lighting fires; it is similarly of substantially less use as an aid to anal hygeine.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 12:18 PM

I certainly wouldn't want to wipe my arse with the Telegraph.
Pretty pointless exercise....

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 12:25 PM

I'm with you on that, greg. Looks horrible, feels horrible. Naming that format after a sausage flatters it unduly. And to add insult to injury, it is smug to buggery about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 06:13 PM

No names or examples to offer then McGrath - Though not

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:45 PM

"I believe demolishing Hussein's military power and liberating Iraq would be a cakewalk. By Ken Adelman (assistant to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld from 1975 to 1977, and arms control director under President Ronald Reagan) in the Washington Post Wednesday, February 13, 2002.
.....................

"I can't tell you if the use of force in Iraq today will last five days, five weeks or five months, but it won't last any longer than that." Donald Rumsfeld, Sect. of Defense, Nov. 14, 2002.
....................

"Saddam is much weaker than we think he is. He's weaker militarily. We know he's got about a third of what he had in 1991."

"But it's a house of cards. He rules by fear because he knows there is no underlying support. Support for Saddam, including within his military organization, will collapse at the first whiff of gunpowder.        Richard Perle, recently resigned chairman of the Defense Policy Board, in a PBS interview July 11, 2002
...................
"This will be no war -- there will be a fairly brief and ruthless military intervention.

"The president will give an order. [The attack] will be rapid, accurate and dazzling ... It will be greeted by the majority of the Iraqi people as an emancipation. And I say, bring it on. Christopher Hitchens, Vanity Fair writer, in a debate Jan. 28, 2003:

I could chase around and find more. Of course, so far as the actual initial victory goes, they are accurate enough (which is hardly surprising given the disparate of military resources of the two sides - though that kind of confidence does seem to indicate that those fampous "Weapons of Mass Desruction" were not always seen as constituting a real threat, by those in the know). But the clear implication of those quotes was that this blitzkrieg victory would mean a rapid the end of the war and transition to peace.

And when Bush went to Iraq on that visit where he drssed up as a pilot and declared victory back in May 2003 there was the same clear assumption that things were pretty well sorted out. Whereas in a real sense they were only starting.

I don't think there were too many advocates of the war who said before it started that they thought it would last for many long years, and mean thousands of dead among the occupying armies. (Let alone the far higher numbers of Iraqi dead.)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 04:01 AM

The minimum timeline Kevin was 2 years from the end of hostilities in relation to the Iraqi armed forces under the command of the Ba'athist regime. Since 1-May-2003, the political and military leaders have steadfastly stated that they will remain in Iraq and in Afghanistan for as long as the governments of those countries want us to remain, not a day longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 04:37 AM

Some political leaders and military leaders have stated that they will remain in Iraq and in Afghanistan as long as the puppet governments want them to remain.

Of course! They know that as soon as the big guns leave, they will quickly be thrown out of power.

You must admit, terribus, it wasn't as quick and easy as they thought it would be and it certainly has cost alot more than anyone ever expected - except for those of us who knew all along that Bush had no idea what he was getting into.

You make the invasion of Iraq sound like some kind of noble cause. You're joking, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 05:49 AM

Dianavan,

I think the first part of it went quicker and easier than everybody though it would. The second part was always going to take time and be much harder. The political advancement has, by and large, kept on track with regard to timetable - by the end of the year the first democratically elected Government of Iraq will be in place.

You on the other hand would have preferred to see Saddam Hussein still in power - You're joking, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 02:14 PM

Teribus ...You've only just returned, dont start squirming already.

By the end of the year we either have civil war,(maybe we have it now) or a "democratically" elected Islamist govt...Its no joke..

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 03:34 PM

"Minimum timeline"?

"I can't tell you if the use of force in Iraq today will last five days, five weeks or five months, but it won't last any longer than that." Donald Rumsfeld, Sect. of Defense, Nov. 14, 2002.

Seems pretty unambiguous to me. There is absolutely no qualification about this merely meaning "the end of hostilities in relation to the Iraqi armed forces under the command of the Ba'athist regime."

The point is, they went in in a tearing hurry, on a timetable based on internal political considerations, and with no worked out strategy for what to do, and how to extricate themselves. For example the decision to disband the entire Iraqi armed forces in the way that it was done has been pretty well universally seen as a disastrous blunder, and one which did an enormous amount to foster the insurgency.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 03:41 PM

Teribus - If you call civil war, "political advancement", I think you are delusional. I do not think Saddam is or ever was (even when the U.S. supported him) a good guy. I do think that democracy cannot be imposed.

If, "by the end of the year the first democratically elected Government of Iraq will be in place" we will have to wait and see how long it will be in place and/or how democratic it actually turns out to be. Islamic governments are not well known for their civil liberties.

I think you would have to ask the people of Iraq if intervention by the U.S. and Britain has improved the quality of their lives. Its a bit smug to assume that, from the perspective of an outsider, that the people of Iraq have more freedom now.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 08:24 PM

Political freedom isn't the only freedom. For women in much of Iraq, their freedom to do all kinds of things appears to be significantly less than it was. Even aside from the increased likelihood of being blown up or shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 10:18 PM

"good will still exists between the population in and around Basra and the British Forces"

Oooops! Not any more!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:53 AM

Two quotes from MGOH;

""I can't tell you if the use of force in Iraq today will last five days, five weeks or five months, but it won't last any longer than that." Donald Rumsfeld, Sect. of Defense, Nov. 14, 2002."


"Of course, so far as the actual initial victory goes, they are accurate enough ..."

No qualification - seems so to me.

There is no civil war in Iraq at present, no matter how much those of you posting here would wish to see it. Apart from which I have yet to read one post of yours (Dianavan) comdemning any Islamic Government for human rights abuses. At least the people of Afghanistan and Iraq have been given the opportunity - most seem to appreciate it - even when threatened by those you seem to whole heartedly support. Please answer a direct question would you have preferred it if Saddam Hussein were still in power?

Foolestroupe - the grounds for your rather inane statement is? In May 2003 British troop levels in Iraq were over 30,000, they are now slightly less than 8,500 - in Northern Ireland they are at around 15,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 01:48 AM

teribus, you said, "Apart from which I have yet to read one post of yours (Dianavan) comdemning any Islamic Government for human rights abuses."

Then I guess you can't read, teribus because I said, "Islamic governments are not well known for their civil liberties."

Would I have preferred it if Saddam Hussein were still in power?

Thats not the point. The point is that the U.S. should not have invaded but should have continued to negotiate through the U.N. I doubt if Saddam would have killed any more people than the U.S. has killed in the same space of time.

Maybe we should tally the number of deaths that can be attributed to the U.S. and compare it to the number of deaths that can attributed to Saddam minus the help he got from the U.S. We know that we cannot attain these facts but we all know that the U.S. is responsible for one hell of alot of death and destruction. At least Saddam did not destroy the country and its infrastructure.

Britain is no better. They have a very long history of invasion of other countries that pre-dates World War II. Would you like to compare the number of deaths caused by British invasions to the number of deaths attributed to Saddam?

Saddam is a monster but the combined forces of the U.S. and Britain are even worse and the tally of innocent deaths is much higher.

Get off your high horse and realize that the U.S. and Britain should start minding their own business on their own turf and stop meddling in the affairs of other nations unless they have the support of the U.N. Without international support, the U.S. and Britain are merely war mongers in pursuit of economic gain.

If they were interested in democracy, they would be doing a better job of it at home. In other words, they would be listening to the people. There is more to a mandate than a crooked election.

Since you obviously didn't read my previous post and attempted to put words in my mouth, I will, like other Mudcatters, refuse to enter into any further dialogue with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 09:55 AM

"Islamic governments are not well known for their civil liberties."

Sounds more like an observation - hardly condemnation - that you seem to reserve for the current US Government.

"Would I have preferred it if Saddam Hussein were still in power?

Thats not the point." That is entirely the point, you were asked a simple question, which you answer rather obliquely - in short you would prefer it if Saddam Hussein were still in power.

Oh and as for - "Britain is no better. They have a very long history of invasion of other countries that pre-dates World War II." In actual fact they don't, but that's a popular misconception of many living on your side of the Atlantic.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 09:56 AM

Change the record here too Bill

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 10:00 AM

"Use of force" doesn't mean the same as "initial victory". It means something much wider and more difficult to achieve, and which would have involvesd intelligent planning in advance and preparation. The failure to do that kind of work has meant thousands of dead among the occupying forces, and God knows how many dead Iraqis. And it is reducing to vanishing point the hope that out of all this will come an Iraq that is any better to live in then it was under Saddam.

There are all kinds of regimes around the world I'd love to see the back of. But I am sure that if the USA were to give them the same kind of treatment they have given to Iraq, the end result would probably be even worse than the present situation in country after country.

Maybe it's sometimes necessary to crack eggs to make an omelette - but you don't do it with a sledgehammer.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 11:16 AM

dianavan,

"Saddam is a monster but the combined forces of the U.S. and Britain are even worse and the tally of innocent deaths is much higher."

Care to give any indication where you made these numbers up?

Or are the hundreds of thousands found in mass graves, the deaths in the Kuwait and Iran wars, and the civilians killed by bombs all to be presumed guilty?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 11:49 AM

I rather assume that "much higher" refers to the number of innocent deaths in the two years since Saddam was overthrown, compared with the number during the two years before the invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 02:19 AM

"By the bye - you don't have to have an independent investigation to determine what they were up to - it is blatantly obvious."

Considering the type of weapons that were in their possession and
that they were dressed in civilian clothing makes it obvious to me that they were fomenting civil war in Iraq and trying to blame it on "insurgents".

Reminds me of Belfast.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 03:28 PM

McGrath-

Numbers, please, if you want to use those dates. And keep away from Bobert- he has a real problem with numbers...

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 03:54 PM

Not so much that I "want to use those dates", but that I think they are the relevant ones.

The question isn't whether or not Saddam was a murderous bastard, because pretty evidently he was, but whether the net effect of the invasion has been such as to justify it, in terms of the change effected from the situation which was in place in the period preceding the invasion.

From that point of view, assembling those figures, if it could be done, and if someone wants to attempt to do it, or can dig up some existing reliable figures, would be a neutral operation. "Reliable" - there's likely to be the rub...

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 05:20 PM

In chronological order:

GUEST 03 Oct 05 - 09:56 AM - Somebody trampin' on your corns pal or do you own the site. This happens to be an open forum, please explain to me exactly what right you have to tell anybody what they can or cannot say. One question - How come it's only the socialist left-wing tosser's on this forum who are continually telling people to shut up, and then bleat on about repression - slight hint pal, "Awa and bile yer heid".

dianavan - 04 Oct 05 - 02:19 AM

The weapons in their possession were? Fact please not what Mr Pilger, in the process of creating a story supposed.

"Reminds me of Belfast." Oddly enough Dianavan same for me apart from the following difference, the crews in the cars then consisted of four men:
- A driver
- An Observer
- A Cameraman
- A gunner whose choice of weapon was entirely his own

What they were doing Dianavan was intelligence gathering, nothing more, nothing less. If you doubt that please explain why the Central Government in Baghdad, Central Command or the British Army would:
a) Decrease troop levels by more than 67%.
b) Then foment a civil war in their sector.

No doubt you will come up with a reason, but I don't think I'll swallow it.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 05:40 PM

How come it's only the socialist left-wing tosser's on this forum who are continually telling people to shut up

It isn't. As Paul Simon sang "A man sees what he wants to see, and disregards the rest" Or rather, we often see what we expect to see, whether we like it or not.

Similarly what is "blatently obvious" will differ according to what kind of expectations we are geared up to accept. Very few things in conflict situations are in fact "blatently obvious", if that means obvious to everyone. Very few things in life are really.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 06:29 AM

Dianavan applauds McGrath providing a link to the story and I agree with her. With a link it is always easier to see the spin posters here give to a story.

Teribus for instance writes disparagingly about the Guardian as a source for the initial version of the story when in fact the link shows that AP was the source.

McGrath for instance writes 'they break open the jail, and release 150 prisoners' where AP reported about one lone voice telling them that about 150 had 'fled' in the course of the action. 'Fled', 'freed' who cares about such details when a good story waits to be told.

Akenaton's spin: McGrath's version of events was widely reported in all the "quality" papers . No, it wasn't. McGrath's version you did praise so much was his own idiosyncratic version published in no quality paper.

Just BTW, of course for decades until quite recently, foreign soldiers in Germany (both sides of the wall) were not to be arrested by German police and not to be tried by German courts. This is quite normal for forces of occupation and even not unheard of for (officially) nonoccupying forces. No Russian (soldier in uniform or secret service without) in the countries behind the Iron curtain could be arrested by the local authorities.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 06:34 PM

Maybe I should have made it clearer that what I was doing was demonstrate how the same story could be presented in a completely different way from the way that the media in my country have done.

As I commented in a later post, I don't think we have enough information to be able to come to any clear certainty as to what actually did happen, and why. And I don't think the media have either.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:14 AM

McGrath,

Lack of valid information has never been a reason, on any topic, not to to pass judgement here on Mudcat. By all parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: GUEST,Johnnie Ralph
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:59 AM

British soldiers don't behave badly while on duty ? Can anyone give me an example ?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 12:01 AM

McGrath said, "There has to be a suspicion about what the two arrested men were up to. Perhaps they were not engaged in some kind of dirty tricks operation, such as have frequently taken place in other conflict situations, but the fact that they were apparently members of the British Army is not sufficient in itself to eliminate such suspicions, and some kind of independent investigation would be appropriate."

The man in charge of that investigation was found dead, apparent suicide although he was due to go home in a couple of weeks.

"The pressures in Basra reached a new intensity in the last weeks of Captain Masters' life, when British forces found themselves increasingly engaged in action against Shia militias. Just a few weeks ago, troops faced local police heavily infiltrated by the militia and a violent crowd which, according to the British military, was also orchestrated by the militia."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 08:24 PM

"Oooops! Not any more!"

Well throwing molotov cocktails at a tank is now a friendly act, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 12:43 PM

Hey up, Foolestroupe - 18 Oct 05 - 08:24 PM

Glad you mentioned that bit about the Molotov cocktails being thrown at the Warrior APC outside that police station where our gallant lads were being supposed to have been held, but weren't, because the police/militiamen-posing-as-policemen had turned them over to their militia buddies.

Now, the Iraqi's are claiming that seven Iraqi's were killed during this operation, and you may have provided an explanation. You see not a single shot was fired by the British Troops present. Now harking back to the beautifully filmed scenes of the rather sparse crowd who were throwing stones (Palestinian Intafada Traditionalist Protesters Section of rent-a-crowd)), steel rods (Casual Opportunist section of same organisation) and Molotov Cocktails (Professional section) at that vehicle. One thing struck me - they weren't throwing all that accurately (well I suppose every team has to have a bad day) some missiles were falling short, others simply sailing straight over the target. Unfortunately the reporters said that the 'Tank' was surrounded so unless the typical rent-a-hysterical-mob crowd had eyes in the backs of their heads, or were keeping a very good look-out, there is a chance that some of those stones, steel bars and Molotov cocktails landed on some of their own side - 'friendly fire' sort of thing. We know it happens so it may not be outwith the bounds of possibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 01:42 PM

possinle but not probable.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 01:42 PM

possible but not probable.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 05:16 AM

My God Teribus!!...Changed days indeed when the "King of facts" is reduced to constructing scenarios based on dubious or non-existent evidence...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 10:39 AM

Just joining the club Ake, after all you've never based a single post on anything that could construed as anything other than, how did you put it? Oh yes - dubious or non-existent evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 09:47 AM

Yesterday 3 British soldiers charged with offences against Iraquis were acquited.
The witnesses admitted lying.
They had been on 100 dollars a day expences and stood to gain a fortune in compensation.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 06:24 PM

Missed that one. There was the case of seven paratroopers charged with killing an 18 year old boy which was thrown out by the judge - "Before directing the panel to clear the soldiers, Judge Blackett said he considered the investigation into the case had been "inadequate". (Apparently blood matching the dead man's DNA was found in a screw recess on one of the soldiers rifles.)

Here's a Times roundup of other trials in the pipeline.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 12:36 AM

From the link above: "So far the Royal Military Police have investigated 184 alleged offences in Iraq, 160 of which were completed without any further action being taken."

We may have given them democracy but we never promised justice!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 03:28 AM

Thankfully for the accused Dianavan, in the UK, even under military codes of justice there still exists the presumption of innocence until PROVEN guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. It would appear under your preferred scheme of things just to be accused is enough. Dianavan you would do better under the code of justice I support, than anyone else would under the code you seem to advocate.

The Court Martial of the seven men referred to in MGOH's post cost the British Taxpayer £10m, and many of those involved from the outset were of the opinion that there never was any case for these men to answer. Having followed the case at a distance I must admit I have never seen any reference to the blood sample taken from one of the screw recesses on one of the rifles. Witnesses were paid to lie, witnesses who were proven to have been nowhere near the place of the incident appeared to give evidence, witnesses admitted that the only reason they were there was because they were being paid to attend (£100 per day plus food and accommodation), none of these witnesses could identify ANY of the men charged.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 04:27 AM

According to first reports, the young Iraqi was taken into the custody of the British soldiers. Subsequently he was found battered to death.
Traces of the mans DNA were found on weapons used by the soldiers as McGrath has pointed out.

Saw the soldiers on a TV report and my impression was that they had "got away with murder".

Army life brutalises young men. I saw this during the period of "National Service" in Britain.
Young men were taken from their home environment, and taught the killing skills,bigotry and hate.
Most returned home unfeeling morons, taking years to adjust back into normal society...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 04:50 AM

Most returned home merely fit, strong, self confident and cheerful, according to my Grandfather, a gentle man who was one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:25 AM

Well then Ake,

As almost every male from the age of eighteen was required to complete a two year period of National Service, are you trying to tell us that the majority of males in Britain were/are prior to 1959, hate filled, bigotted, unfeeling, morons with the honed killing skills of accomplished Ninja's (all this with only two years of training).

As usual your posts are ill informed, alarmist, hogwash.

I note that you 'saw this during the period of "National Service" in Britain" So did you actually complete your National Service and are your observations on the overall effects based on personal experience. If so how long, in terms of years (nearest decade will do, if the memories are too painful) did it take you to adjust back into normal society? If indeed you have managed to do that.

From previous posts of yours, I note that you think of people in terms of left-wing, populist stereotypes. Having done that your mind remains made up and you are simply not prepared to have any of your misconceptions challenged, irrespective of the facts or evidence presented to you.

By the way any reputable reference for the DNA claim, it should not be difficult to find if it was presented as forensic evidence at the Court Martial

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:30 AM

DNA might be difficult.
There is no body or grave or even proof that anyone died.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:44 AM

Yesterday 3 British soldiers charged with offences against Iraquis were acquited.
The witnesses admitted lying.
They had been on 100 dollars a day expences and stood to gain a fortune in compensation.

Yes, the investigation which rightly took place was completely bungled.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 02:11 PM

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:30 AM

"DNA might be difficult.
There is no body or grave or even proof that anyone died."

Oddly enough Keith those are the FACTS that utterly amazed me. The British Government in their haste to prove that all was being done above board engage in an investigation into the alleged murder of an Iraqi teenager - AND THERE ISN'T EVEN A BODY OR A POST MORTEM

This cost the British taxpayer somewhere in the region of between £8m and £10m.

Even the Judge Advocate stated that the charges should never have been brought.

To all those who might disagree with what I have said above, I will ask you one question. How many of you would be prepared to stand trial as the accused in a murder trial where there is:
1. No body
2. No postmortem to establish cause of death
3. A wide range of witnesses who are only there to testify against you because they are personally profiting from the exercise.
4. Where none of the witnesses appearing for the prosecution can identify YOU as the perpetrator of the crime.
5. Where this wide range of witnesses openly admit that they lied.

Now come on dianavan, I want to hear that you'd be prepared to put yourself in the dock and accept the judgement handed down under such circumstances - I don't think for one second that you would.

Damn sure I wouldn't - Thankfully, neither did a British Court Martial trying British Soldiers - Good for them - Now ACCEPT tyhe ruling of a legally constituted court - or are willing to demonstrate to all on this forum that you support kangaroo, drumhead courts where the outcome is set before the trial ever takes place.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 02:33 PM

Teribus - My comment, "We may have given them democracy but we never promised justice!", referred to, "So far the Royal Military Police have investigated 184 alleged offences in Iraq, 160 of which were completed without any further action being taken."

I was not referring to a specific trial, especially since the posts on this thread seem to have veered from the case referred to in the original post.

If we are discussing a specific case with specific circumstances (the one you are talking about) I would agree that, without a body or a post mortem, it should never have gone to trial.

My comment regarding justice for the Iraqis still stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 02:52 PM

dianavan - 05 Nov 05 - 02:33 PM

So dianavan what you stand by is as follows:

"the Royal Military Police have INVESTIGATED 184 alleged offences in Iraq, 160 of (THOSE INVESTIGATIONS) were completed without any further action being taken."

OK then dianavan how many of those cases should have resulted in prosecutions, remembering, of course, that you are sitting fat, dumb and happy over there in BC at some remove from where those incidents are taking place, let us also remember that you are not exactly impartial, or objective in your judgements. OK dianavan how many? Please tell us.

Believe me dianavan, post March 2003 Iraqis have more access to justice than they have had for at least damn near fifty years.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 03:14 PM

teribus - The figures, 160 out of 184 speak for themselves.

Its enough to make any thinking person, wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 03:28 PM

"The figures, 160 out of 184 speak for themselves."

Damn right they do dianavan, they tell me that out of 184 cases investigated only 24 are being pursued. Those 24 cases MAY go before military Courts Martial, where believe me things are slightly more stringent than in a civilian court of law.

Any of our transatlantic friends who may believe that a Court Martial is what is depicted in JAG - don't you believe it for one minute:
- No Jury
- A board of five senior officers

They take a bit of convincing, certainly more so than a jury, with regard to 'reasonable doubt'

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 04:29 PM

Teribus.. Thankfully I just missed "National service", but many of my friends and workmates served.
I had known these people from childhood and their personalities were much changed for years after serving in Cyprus.
Two good friends who still live locally, never got over the experience.

I do feel fortunate in having "missed the cut", had I been called up to have my brain scrambled, I would doubtless be supporting yourself , Doug, Hubby, Keith ....my god its too horrible to contemplate....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 04:34 PM

Well then Ake,

Very pleased to hear that you are not a hate filled, bigotted, unfeeling, moron with the honed killing skills of an accomplished Ninja.

Guess what after having done my time in Her Majesty's armed forces neither am I.

So that's alright then all's well that ends well.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 05:07 PM

Good to see that you can occasionally be civil Teribus, but your attempt at psycho-analysis is a bit off the mark!!

I'm no great supporter of "left wing" politics, as you would have gathered if you had indeed read my posts.
I just feel they are a slightly better option than the credo that you follow.

In the course of my work I encounter quite a number of retired military types, all seem to carry around a great burden of mis-placed anger.
This anger tends to obscure reality and leads in many cases to arrogance, bullying and verbal abuse.
Needless to say the "types" are usually quite unaware of this condition....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 05:58 PM

From a report by the German news agency Deutsche Presse-Agentur reproduced here :

The court also heard that blood matching the dead man's DNA was found in a screw recess in one of the soldiers' rifles.

Of course in order to justify a conviction against a soldier on the basis of this it would have been necessary to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a particular soldier had wielded the rifle, and inflicted injuries that killed the boy. The judge reasonably enough decided that this was not possible.

But the fact that it is impossible to determine who murdered the boy does not mean that he was not murdered.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 06:38 PM

MGOH

"The court also heard that blood matching the dead man's DNA was found in a screw recess in one of the soldiers' rifles."

There isn't even a body, Kevin

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 06:57 PM

You know, teribus, that it is not likely the death was thoroughly investigated or taken to the appropriate court. At this point, it doesn't matter much except to say that these men will have to live with their conscience regardless of the outcry by Amnesty International.

I wish they were identified so that unsuspecting women would not marry them and/or bear their children. Such brutality is not left in the field. These men will return civilian life and continue their reign of terror.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:14 PM

There isn't even a body, Kevin

There was. The body of a boy called Nadhem Abdullah, aged 18. Buried after he died in hospital, following the assault. There wasn't a post mortem, but that's another matter.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that he wasn't killed and that he sholdn't have been killed. But that is a long way sort of being able to pin the blame on particular individuals. Botched investigations produce that kind of result.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 11:17 PM

...and may the ghost of Nadhem Abdullah haunt teribus for the rest of his life.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 02:33 AM

dianavan - 05 Nov 05 - 11:17 PM

"...and may the ghost of Nadhem Abdullah haunt teribus for the rest of his life."


Ooooooooooooooooooooooooh (slight pause) Ooooooooooooooooooh

There feel better.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Troll
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 10:51 PM

Kevin,

It was Crosby, Stills, and Nash, not Paul Simon.

(Unless Simon wrote the song)

Dianavan, I know men who did much worse in WWII, and Viet Nam who came home, married, raised families, led productive lives and never abused or harmed anyone. If your experiences with returning soldiers has been different, than I am sorry for your bad luck.

That you should wish for Nadhem Abdullah's ghost to haunt Terebus simply for commenting favorably on the verdict exonerating those accused of his death indicates to me that you feel that if a soldier is accused, he must be guilty.

I,personally, would not comment on the justicification of the verdict unless I had read the transcript of the trial myself. I tend to be mistrustful of the media these days.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:02 AM

Personally, I wouldn't wish such a fate on any ghost...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:18 AM

99 is the new 100

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:27 AM

100 - twice in one week.

Woo-hoo!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:42 AM

Hey stigweard, what's 'my' ghost doing in your post, dianavan allocated him to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 08:22 AM

I've reported Dianavan to the RSPCG....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: GUEST,Oakville
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:34 AM

According to news today it's not only the courts in Iraq that is interested in British soldiers.

Probation staff union Napo said its figures show that one in ten of prisoners currently held in British jails used to be in the armed forces.

Plaid Cymru MP Elfyn Llwyd confirmed that over 8,500 former soldiers, sailors and air force are currently serving sentences. He said it is an unacceptably high number for a body who once prided itself on discipline. He has called on the Ministry of Defence and charities to do more to help.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:29 AM

Ex servicemen are also over represented among homeless vagrants.
Oakville does a service to them in highlighting the shameful lack of support given to them here, certainly in comparison to the help and support US vets receive.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: GUEST,Oakville
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:38 PM

Always glad to highlight "lost causes" Keith, especially if they happen to be British soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:00 PM

Not only is there a shameful lack of support given to former soldiers in the UK but the support given to ex-prisoners is inadequate, so some are getting a double dose!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:21 PM

The help and support given to US soldiers may be better than that available for UK soldiers - but it appears to be pretty inadequate as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:14 AM

Ever since the Viet Nam war, soldiers have come back & been dumped on the streets, many suffing from PTS syndrome (my singing mate was just diagnosed 2 yrs ago, about 38 yrs to late & my brother has been seen plenty of times over the past 40 yrs but never been treated, he believes he has been exposed to 'agent orange', has PTS & I know he has 'survivor's guilt' from the loss of the Scorpion). Many of these soldiers treat themselves & self medicate (which makes them a criminal if it's drugs) since they can't get any one else to treat them. Many are also unable to hold down a job, which leaves them very few choices when it comes to survival (my brother was a seal & an expert in underwater demolition, he hasn't had a steady since he's come home, my singing mate was a nurse but could only work nights). I think with Iraq, because much of the wounds are to the head that we'll see an uncanny rise in "homeless" & "imprisoned" vets. Obama is taking issue with our failures to address health care for the vets, something that Bush has been cutting back on.

Barry

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:17 PM

I was horrified to read this.