BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq

Subject: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 06:29 PM

News coming out today of torture rooms within govt buildings in Iraq.
179 prisoners were found by American and Iraqi troops, some starved others had been tortured, several having had areas of skin removed from their bodies.

The invaders have created in Iraq a lawless nightmare... Worse than the Saddam regime, controlled by militias who's spokesmen are in fact the "democratic" candidates in the elections praised by our Mudcat "warriors"

Do you still think things are going just fine Teribus?.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 06:45 PM

Very well-written article; very powerful.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 07:17 PM

Thanks for that link Bruce, excellent article.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: Beer
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 07:34 PM

Wow!! Powerful article.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 10:07 PM

Here's one paper's account of these new revelations Raid on torture dungeon exposes Iraq's secret war:

Brigadier General Karl Horst of the US 3rd Infantry Division, who was involved in the operation, said the prisoners were "in need of medical care".

The Iraqi police were more forthcoming. "These men were in a very bad way. They have obviously been tortured, some had been there a long time and they were very frightened," said an officer calling himself Yasin. He would not give any other name: "I don't want to end up in one of these rooms myself."

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 10:38 PM

CIA invovement and US funding? Perhaps it was of little wonder the word on the streets of Baghdad, when the US first invaded was quoted as, "Out goes the apprentice, in comes the master."

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 12:11 AM

From the Council on Foreign Relations,

"In the past, the U.S. government has said it opposes the use of unsanctioned militias. But on June 8, Sean McCormack, a State Department spokesman, told reporters that the Iraqi government's growing use of militias "is an Iraqi issue that they will decide and that they will deal with." Last year, the U.S. military fought alongside the Wolf Brigade and other commando units in counterinsurgency operations in Mosul and Samarra. Some experts credit the U.S. military with giving assistance to commando units in the form of money, training, and equipment. "Our policy [in Iraq] is to equip those who are the most effective fighters," says Thomas X. Hammes, a former Marine officer and counterinsurgency expert. "[These commando units] may be a marriage of convenience and ultimately may be absorbed into the army or disbanded."

Your U.S. tax dollars at work.

So much for justice in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:04 AM

On the news I watched the White House spokesman stumble over the words "We do not torture people"


Hahahhahahahahahaha!

Please stop!
Ohhhhh my aching sides!


Well at least it LOOKS like Uncle Sam is not directly responsible for this lot of torture (either) and they didn't even have to fly them to Egypt this time!

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: Stu
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:24 AM

All this and white phosporous used as munitions - this'll win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Congrats USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:28 AM

LOL. I am curious as to what this means to those who have posted here? Are you happy that they found these people? Does this indicate that we should not have gone to Iraq? Why?

I guess none of you are being clear as to why you think this is significant if it is at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:57 AM

it is painful for THIS American, who once was proud of his country's basic stance against abuse and torture of prisoners, to read of the changes and rationalizations being made by this administration.

There have always been individual instances of poor treatment ....by ANY country involved in emotional conflicts, but this upper-level condoning of general mistreatment and collusion with other governments to hide the suspect practices is beyond anything I ever expected...even from 'conservatives'. Perhaps I was gullible to think THAT could never happen here.

The vicious terrorism of 9/11 requires a response, and requires extraordinary efforts to deal with it, and for awhile, it seemed that was all we were doing, and we had much sympathy in the world for our cause...but this goes beyond patriotism and beyond reason. And besides, torture and abuse seldom accomplishes anywhere near the purported objectives it aims for.

I am not alone in my anger & frustration at this stupidity being perpetrated in the name of 'defense'....there are members of Congress, news reporters and angry citizens asking "why?" and saying "stop", and I hope that elections next year, and in 2008 will send a message about the INTEGRITY we need to expect from out government while fighting for our freedoms.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 10:02 AM

(I am aware that there are questions about the 'direct' complicity of the US in the operation of this prison, but it is hard to believe that it could operate without some latitude and access to whatever 'intelligence' was supposedly gained.)

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 10:47 AM

I don't see where the facts bear out your disgruntlement. There were abuses and there were trials for the individuals responsible. The administration has come out directly and said they do not condone torture.

In regards to this latest instance of purported torture, I find it hard to believe that you would blame the administration with what has been reported. It appears from early reports that the abuse was at the hands of what is in essence an Iraqi militia (whether sponsored by the government or not is not clear to me). Does it give you any heart that it was the US forces and teh Iraqi government forces that 'liberated' the victims?

On a broader scale, I have yet to see from any poster on this site how the isolated instances of abuse has undermined the strategic objectives. Nor have I seen anyone post how they would have dealt with the problems that faced this administration after 911.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 11:48 AM

For Fuck sake!!
Do you not realise that the regime we are putting in place will be in no way democratic.

WE have created an Iraq ruled by militias and Islamic fundamentalists who are practicing the very abuses that we are about to execute Saddam for.
The politicians who have been elected are mouthpieces in the struggle for POWER! not democracy.

Of course we shouldn't have gone to Iraq.

The reasons have all been used up....There are no reasons left!!

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 12:05 PM

" Do you not realise that the regime we are putting in place will be in no way democratic"

How do you mean? Do people vote for their representatives or don't they?

"WE have created an Iraq ruled by militias and Islamic fundamentalists who are practicing the very abuses that we are about to execute Saddam for.
The politicians who have been elected are mouthpieces in the struggle for POWER! not democracy."

And this is somehow different than the US in what way? American service personnel were found guilty of mishandling prisoners and were tried. If you think that the leeches on capitol hill are not in the 'struggle for power' then you need to review the reasons why our founding fathers created checks and balances by having three branches of the government.


" Of course we shouldn't have gone to Iraq.

The reasons have all been used up....There are no reasons left!!"

Once again I will repeat:

On a broader scale, I have yet to see from any poster on this site how the isolated instances of abuse has undermined the strategic objectives. Nor have I seen anyone post how they would have dealt with the problems that faced this administration after 911.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: GUEST,A
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 12:11 PM

........and you won't, rarelamb. At least not in a non-contrived manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 01:16 PM

Worse than the Saddam regime

Rubbish.
It is a crime; the USA and allies should not have gone there; the present government of Iraq could be much better; but: such a sentence can only be written and meant seriously by someone who has never read any human rights watch report or Amnesty International report about Iraq before the invasion.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 01:39 PM

What about the people who are being rounded up daily by the militias , shot through the head and their bodies dumped?

What about the Iraqi women who are now afraid to speak freely wear what they want to and risk death for minor misdemeanors?

What about the torture?

What about the thousands of dead civilians?

What about DEMOCRACY?

And the important part ...Its going to get worse not better...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 02:26 PM

What you are describing has been committed mostly by those who want to stop the transition to an independent democratic Iraq, not by those who are trying to affect a change to democracy. And most of the points you were making are isolated cases or are dwarfed in relation to the forgone alternative (the US not invading).

"What about the people who are being rounded up daily by the militias , shot through the head and their bodies dumped?"

"What about the torture?

What about the thousands of dead civilians?"

These have been isolated cases and have been primarily the acts of the terrorists in Iraq not the Iraqi government. It has not been Iraqi military/police nor the US that have been using suicide bombers and improvised explosive devices, it has beent the Al Queda and former Baathasist.



"What about the Iraqi women who are now afraid to speak freely wear what they want to and risk death for minor misdemeanors?"

?? Can you support this and provide evidence of it being a wide spread problem caused by the Iraqi interim government? Or the US?

It sounds an aweful like you are accusing the Iraqi government and the US forces of doing ALL of the killing and violence when in reality it is they who are courageously trying to end the horror and establish a functional democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 03:02 PM

Are you blind?
The torture...this is only the tip of the iceberg... is taking place in Iraqi govt buildings!!.

Do you really think the people who wield the power WANT an independent democratic Iraq??

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 03:12 PM

"Are you blind?
The torture...this is only the tip of the iceberg... is taking place in Iraqi govt buildings!!.

Do you really think the people who wield the power WANT an independent democratic Iraq??"

Ahhhh, we finally get to the heart of the matter. It's a......Conspiracy!!!!   Personally, i'de like to see more fact than speculation.

I don't know if the Iraqi govt is complicit in this instance of torture and it is obvious that you do not either. As I mentioned before, Iraqi forces did help to free them, so if one part of the government committed an IRAQI crime, it does not mean that the government as a whole was complicit. It will be up to the Iraqis to investigate, have a trial and determine what punishment for this Iraqi crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 04:24 PM

"On a broader scale, I have yet to see from any poster on this site how the isolated instances of abuse has undermined the strategic objectives".


One report of torture is enough to give this government the image of hypocrisy through out the world. I'd stay that world opinion would effect us strategically not that the world really matters to us anymore. In war there is no such thing as an isolated case. There's a saying "if you see one roach there another hundred hidden". What do you think happens when you see 50? Practices of tourture prevail when a hierarchy turns a blind eye or worst condons it & the hierarchy should be held more responsible than an uneducated grunt who's following orders & knows no law or boundry when it comes to what's acceptable & what's not. Dogs in the presence of where a Muslem resides is to them an unspeakable horror by itself (who allowed dogs to mingle with Muslems in a prison?) & culturally in the eyes of those in the mid-east it would probably be seen as a form of torture. We still don't understand a culture that differs from our own (does make it easier to destroy though), we just never tried, what were we thinking. We are presently pushing our way slowly towards a power grab for Syria & Iran (thread softly, not like Iraq), take a strategic look at a world map & then say "this isn't happening". We have no right nor reason to be where we are today, might does not equal right.


You want a plan, pull our troops today & go down in history as the assholes of the universe (it's pretty much a given now anyway) because Iraq no matter what happens will be better off without us & bring in the UN & others that understand them & truly have humanity as an aggenda. The damage is unrepairable & will get worst, the mid east is made up of many loyalities & cultural connections they best understand their surrounding. If we really want to help, help fund a peace process (it's we who are not keeping the peace) & keep our noses out of it, it is a possibility but not one likely that this country or the UK would consider. There is no truth that now we have to stay. We can go to work on some others issues that need attending to, God knows we've got plenty enough of them.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 04:55 PM

" The administration has come out directly and said they do not condone torture."

yes, of course...and then they have said "we will do what we have to to fight terrorism".....I think this includes rewriting the dictonary to make the definitions of 'torture' and 'intense interrogation' fit better.

Sorry, rarelamb, there are too many stories and eyewitnesses to ignore. We have not gotten the degree of 'proof' you require because the very institution who would normally provide the proof is the one under suspicion. We would not expect a guilty party to go out of their way to implicate themselves....they will continue to claim fair & reasonable treatment of prisoners until something more like Abu Graib happens..

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 06:46 PM

The accounts I heard were gnarly beyond the typical US torture techniques.

The torture that was employed included cutting the skin off the live victims. The lucky ones have died or are now paralyzed and can not feel or move.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: TIA
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 07:01 PM

Rarelamb - if you can't see that US participation in, or even the appearance of complcity in, torture irreparably harms our stated goals, there is no use having a discussion with you. As to how to respond to 911 - how about we don't respond to unspeakable brutality by becoming unspeakably brutal ourselves. If we do, who won?

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 07:24 PM

There seems a rather naive tendency to suggest that "democracy" - meaning a system where goverments have come to power through free elections - is somehow incompatible with oppression and torture.   It would be good if that were true, but it ain't necessarily so.

Historically of course the most obvious and extreme example of that is Nazi Germany, but there are plenty more cases. For example, at various times France, the UK, Israel, Russia and the USA.

There is no reason to assume that a democratic Iraq will be that different in that respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:19 PM

sorry all ..called away to domestic emergency.

Now where were we ....Oh yes Rarelamb.

Conspiracy!!! Is that the best you can do.
There is no conspiracy theory in my argument. the factions competing for power are well defined.
Shia in the South the largest faction, tied to Iran and Fundamentalism.
Do they want democracy?...Not bloody likely!!

Sunni in the centre..... will have little or no power under the new constitution.
Do they want democracy?...Do turkeys vote for Christmas!!

Kurdish warlords in the north...thirsting for independence, oil money and power thereoff.
A democratic Iraq? they dont need it ...dont want it.

"I don't know if the Iraqi govt is complicit in this instance of torture and it is obvious that you do not either"

The torture has been taking place in Govt buildings, which rather proves that either the Govt were complicit, or have absolutely no control over the militias .
I believe the latter to be the case as the shia militias recognise
the "Govt" to be an American puppet.

Civil rights agencies in Iraq have been warning of widespread torture in both American and Iraqi detention centres for over a year and state that top Govt leaders use militias to torture and kill prisoners

On TV tonight...pictures of prisoners released yesterday most of whom had pieces of skin missing from backs an bellies.

"Personally, i'de like to see more fact than speculation."

In Iraq there is no such thing as fact, only spin, but I understand your reluctance to speculate.
Like Burns on evicting the mouse
                  
                "I weary backwards cast ma ee'
                  on prospects drear.
                  And forward,tho' ah canna see,
                  I guess....and fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:42 PM

Yeah, first thought I had was the same as Foolestroupe's in Bush's emty word, "We don't engage in torture..."

And the Pope is a Lutherin, too...

Of course the US engages in torture... If they didn't why would Dick Chaney be so Hell-bent on exempting the CIA from non-torture restrictions...

There is no reason to torture folks...

There is no reason to torture folks...

No reason what so ever...

You want yer kids tortured??? Well, heck no, you don't... If you condone it, then don't complain when yer kid has been captured and now has eletrodes stuck into his testicles while being hooded and made to stand for hours and hours on a box...

Hey, anyone here that can justify that is sick beyond sick... You need serious help and should call the nearest mental health program and check the heck in...

Listen to what John McCain says... He knows...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 07:38 AM

Just listening to a British Lawyer on ABC Radio who represents some of the inmates in Cuba (not part of the USA you see!) and he pointed out that although the US courts decided that Cuba was not US territory, if you harm a bird on the US base there, US laws apply - so all he wants is the same rights for his clients that birds get!

He also mentioned in passing the 12,000 secret prisoners in about 30 secret US prisons around the world, where the REAL terrorists are held (being too dangerous to hold anywhere else!) and the that 2 most dangerous thugs in Cuba are the Aussie and no 2 is Saddam's taxi driver! It's a bit like the trials after WWII ignoring Goering, and going after Hitler's secretary first!

The USA is out of control because they won't let rational people contest all this 'alleged evidence' (he called it 'hysterical fantasies') in the US 'Star Chamber' style trials.

He also mentioned the 14 year old held as a financier - due to having translators from the wrong culture, he was asked did he take 'salati' (sp?) to pakistan - this meant 'money' to his questioners, but in his dialect, it meant 'salad'. He said no - why would I take that to pakistan, you can get it anywhere there. Ah! Proof Positive that he is a high level 14 year old Al Quieda Financier!!!!! He went back to his cell thoroughly confused... still hasn't been released...

I think what really happened about that 'secret Iraq prison' is just the same as what happened with the photos from Abu Whatitsname - the USA left hand doesn't know what the USA right hand is doing, and the troops probably shouldn't have 'found' the prison in teh first place...

He also mentioned that the British have dealt with 'suicide bomber terrorists' hundreds of years ago - Guy Fawkes was prepared to blow himself up, but his match went out... :-) And the British also went thru the 'secret trials of terrorists' previously - that's where the phrase 'Star Chamber' comes from....

His closing comment was that there were more non-lawyers than lawyers in the world, so the non-lawyers should get off their arses and do something!

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 10:10 AM

Boooya!

On the point that there is hypocrisy because we have had a few isolated cases of torture. I don't see the hypocrisy at all. If we say we are against torture and we act from top to bottom in a fashion that is consistent with this stance then I don't see where there is hypocrisy. What you and so many others have argued rather poorly is the notion that the system that one creates must be 100% effective in order for there to be validity or morality.

It is absurd in the least to read some of these posts berating Iraqi government and US forces for actions that are either the actions of the terrorists or are isolated instances.

I guarantee you that there is more abuse going on in the millions of prisoners in the US than there is in the Iraqi prisons. I think a little perspective in order. What have the abuses been?   In a few prisons, some of the prisoners were mistreated. And now we get all of these posts and talking heads saying that the Iraq war was a mistake! Give me a break. People are getting hung up on such minor issues that they are losing the forest for the trees.

And yes there is a reason for torture. I have posted before that the use of torture can and should be used as a deterrent to those who use torture on our people. I know from the half century of the cold war that the concept of 'deterence is alien to some of you but believe it or not it works. Bullys pick on the weak not the strong.

The posts here have been nothing but rehashing the same few cases of misconduct and have extrapolated it out to be a huge problem. It is irrational. I could use the same arguement and say, well in this one prison, all of the inmates are being held in the same manner as a well run one in the US. Therefore by the logic of the arguements on this thread, all of the prisons must be well run. Puhleeze...

Don't make a mountain out of an ant hill...

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 10:29 AM

To McGrath's points, I concur to a great degree. I have quoted Washington on this board: "Government is not reason it is not eloquence it is force". The question is one of degrees. Democracies are manifestly more tolerant of differing opinion and are less imperialistic.

Your example of the Nazi is half complete. While he was initially elected, I don't think that you could consider Germany a democracy afterwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 01:16 PM

"And yes there is a reason for torture. I have posted before that the use of torture can and should be used as a deterrent to those who use torture on our people. I know from the half century of the cold war that the concept of 'deterence is alien to some of you but believe it or not it works. Bullys pick on the weak not the strong."

Martin Gibson and others have been hounded from Mudcat for stating views mild compared to this!
Where is all the outrage...Can people really come here and support the use of torture...Is this subject even up for discussion.

I will certainly never engage in discussion with this person again...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 01:40 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 02:03 PM

". . . because we have had a few isolated cases of torture."

It is becoming obvious from VP Cheney's issue-dodging and refusal to speak out against torture, and the continuing discoveries of more incidents of torture, that this is a matter of policy. The idea that my country not only doesn't speak out strongly against this sort of atrocity but actually practices it disgusts me beyond belief!

And GUEST,rarelamb, you efforts to justify torture beggars the imagination!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 02:51 PM

Feel free to go through my posts :)

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 09:16 PM

"...a few isolated cases of torture"

Oh rarelamb, perhaps you should be subjected to the same.

Or maybe you should go to one of the hundreds of secret prisons around the world and report back to us on the conditions. Why do you think they are such a big secret?

I suppose you also agree that shipping prisoners off to other countries to be tortured is also O.K.

I agree with Ake, no more discussion with you. Anyone who thinks like that isn't worth the energy.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 08:51 PM

Latest on this was an item on BBC TV News, featuring an ex senior officer of the CIA stating that he was ashamed to be an American at a time when the US has a vice president for torture.

Secret camps in Romania, Afghanistan, and other countries were mentioned, as well as torture in Iraq.

A few cases? Yeah right.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 10:18 PM

How do you know how mnay cases there are, rarelamb?

We ain't talkin' the stuff that's on the TV... We're talkin' about a prctice called "rendering"... Do you know about rendering? If not, Google it... I'm not going to waste folks time here going over what it entails but to bring it down to the simplist level it means where the Bush adminiistartioon takes folks off to other countries to torture them... Or even have other countires torture them...

Oh, you think these cases are rare??? Not so... It happens with some degree of regularity... It happened to Falls Church man whoes only mistatke wa going to a paint ball ceneter with a cvoupld of other friends... After being tortured this man confessed to anything they wanted him to confess to just to stop the torture...

He was convicted...

He is now appealing saying that it was the torture that made him make a false confession...

Hey, don't belive me...

Google "Paint ball" 'er "Falls Church terrorist" and you'll get the stroy...

These are not rare and isolated incidents... This is daily procedure... Right now, as I type this, someone is being tortured by my governemnt... I mean, right this friggin' second...

Can I prove this? No. But if obe will actually do a little research into the situation it won't take long fir one to figgure out that what I am saying is correct...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Govt sponsored torture in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 11:48 PM

"rendering" = torture on the basis of "plausible denial"

George Orwell was right - 'Doublespeak'!!!

The more you read '1984', the more enlightened you will be.

Robin