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BS: Suggestions on making a baldric

Rapparee 30 Dec 05 - 10:33 PM
katlaughing 30 Dec 05 - 10:54 PM
Rapparee 30 Dec 05 - 10:57 PM
Peace 30 Dec 05 - 11:45 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 31 Dec 05 - 12:40 AM
LadyJean 31 Dec 05 - 01:21 AM
Gurney 31 Dec 05 - 02:34 AM
Rapparee 31 Dec 05 - 10:27 AM
Peace 31 Dec 05 - 06:52 PM
Rapparee 31 Dec 05 - 07:47 PM
GUEST,barrovian 31 Dec 05 - 10:07 PM
Rapparee 31 Dec 05 - 11:10 PM
Peace 01 Jan 06 - 12:54 AM
Rapparee 01 Jan 06 - 01:05 AM
Gurney 01 Jan 06 - 03:28 AM
Rapparee 01 Jan 06 - 10:50 AM
Rapparee 01 Jan 06 - 04:04 PM
Gurney 02 Jan 06 - 03:24 AM
Rapparee 02 Jan 06 - 10:01 AM
Blowzabella 03 Jan 06 - 06:06 AM
beardedbruce 03 Jan 06 - 06:33 AM
beardedbruce 03 Jan 06 - 06:36 AM
Rapparee 03 Jan 06 - 10:00 AM
Rapparee 03 Jan 06 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,Ingrid Frances Stark 03 Jan 06 - 11:07 PM
Rapparee 03 Jan 06 - 11:18 PM
LadyJean 03 Jan 06 - 11:49 PM
GUEST,leeneia 04 Jan 06 - 12:50 PM
Gurney 05 Jan 06 - 03:22 AM
The Walrus 05 Jan 06 - 04:21 AM
NH Dave 06 Jan 06 - 02:29 AM

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Subject: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:33 PM

I want to make a leather baldric with which I can carry the frog for my smallsword (no, I'm not kidding about this!). Knowing well the the expertise on the Mudcat, I'm asking for suggestions, advice, unwarranted comments, etc. etc.

The frog permits the sword (in a scabbard) to hand straight down; I'd like it to angle back.

I have leatherworking knives, tools, etc., and a little experience in working with leather.

Suggestions, as I said before, are welcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:54 PM

Wasn't that the name of the Black Adder's sidekick? I don't remember them with any frogs, but there was something about a large turnip once?**bG**

Good luck!


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:57 PM

I'm more of a Monty Python type, myself....


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 11:45 PM

Shoulder one here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 12:40 AM

What weight sword? One with two frogs here: Baldric
Probably more ideas in Google if you search.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: LadyJean
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 01:21 AM

If you'll check some S.C.A web pages, I'm sure there's someone who will be able to help you. That's Society for Creative Anachronism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Gurney
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 02:34 AM

When I worked leather, I soaked it and stretched it into shape, and let it dry in that shape.
I've never had anything to do with swords, but I imagined that the scabbard did not slide entirely into the frog, so that the weight of the hilt would tend to counterbalance the angle at which the sword hung. Interesting problem. You could try the soak-and-dry technique over a frame or dummy with the sword in place. Let us know how you get on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 10:27 AM

Here's the specs on the sword:

Essentially a European weapon, this small sword was the final incarnation of the dueling sword. It first appeared at the close of the 17th Century and was very popular during the 18th century. The chief advantage of the weapon was its lightness, which allowed for numerous fencing maneuvers that had been unthinkable when employing the heavier rapier. The hilt is simple, but elegant with a shell guard, wire wrapped grip and light knuckle guard. All parts are nickel plated steel. 37" long, 3/4" wide and 3/16" thick blade is high carbon, tempered steel with a diamond cross section. Overall 43 3/8". Wt. 1 lb. 6 oz. Comes complete with a leather scabbard.

MEASUREMENTS:
BLADE: 37", 3/4" wide, 3/16" thick.
OVERALL LENGTH: 48 3/8"
WEIGHT: 1lb 6oz


It was made by Windlass, of India, and is actually "combat ready" (although I haven't sharpened it). There's a small picture of it here.

The scabbard has an intergral hook so that it doesn't slip completely through the frog. Having your scabbard fall down is embarassing, at the very least.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Peace
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 06:52 PM

Not very handy as a kitchen utensil, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 07:47 PM

Better than a saxe or a karabela or a Hiebmesser or a yataghan or a kindjhal. Certain more useful than a falchion, too.

You ought to see what I can do with it when cooking en brouchette or when roasting weenies, too!


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: GUEST,barrovian
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 10:07 PM

Tain't exactly a Wilkinson is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 11:10 PM

Some of us can't afford a Wilkinson, so we do what we can. It will serve my purposes, and will leave a wound that, while not as deep as a well nor as wide as a church door, 'twill serve, 'twill serve. Should they ask for you tomorrow they will find you a grave man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 12:54 AM

OK. He's lost it. Get the nets, we have a live one here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 01:05 AM

Tybalt, you rat catcher!


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Gurney
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 03:28 AM

Here was me thinking it was a prop. Do also tell us why you have it.

There was a TV programme some time ago about Sahara tribesmen, and they carried those things as a matter of course. Made from Toyota bumpers, said the script. Obviosly ready to take their place in the modern world.
Not the kind of Toyota that I owned. That had plastic over pressed-steel. Pre-war cars had bumpers you could make swords from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 10:50 AM

Why? You have to ask?

Because I fence. Because I appreciate good edged weapons. But mostly, because I think it's kinda cool to have one, even if it mostly hangs on the wall (which it does).

Also, it's going to become part of the historical re-enactment personna I'm creating: a former Jaeger, now one of the early wanderers in the Rocky Mountains, who carries a sword he inherited from his father, who took it from an officer he killed at Skotterud on August 5th, 1814. With Sweden now united with Norway and the Danish-Norse forces defeated by the Swedes, the family fled to the United States. And the stock for the Jaeger flintlock I've been working on for over a year will be sent back to me next week -- my neice has finished carving it, and I'm told that she did an excellent job. (I'll photograph the finished rifle for her portfolio.)

How's that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 04:04 PM

Besides, I like that things I have around me to work the way they are supposed to work. You wouldn't have a guitar without strings or a squeeze box with a hole in it, would you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 03:24 AM

Squeeze boxes don't work very well if they have a hole in them. In the bellows, particularly. One day I'll find out why my Lachenal is just as loud when the air is flowing INTO the thing -the pull stroke- as it is when flowing out.
I knew about foil, epee, and sabre. Didn't know there was another discipline.
My brother is a re-enactor in England, The Sealed Knot, I think it is called. Roundhead Musketeer, but I don't think they allow bayonets. Just as well, too.
Are you really sure that you want to be around weapons that 'work the way they are supposed to work?' Could be useful if you hear a noise in the night, but some years ago I DID hear one, saw a guy in my garden, and went out to accost him, armed with a large, but sheathed, knife. He turned out to be Armed Offenders Squad, with a machine gun, a pistol, and 7 mates all similarly armed. He mistook my weapon for a club, but I would imagine he wouldn't make that mistake with a sword. (Here) He could have confiscated the knife, at the least. A word to the wise.

The trouble was next door, and didn't eventuate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:01 AM

Foil (which I started with, like most), epee (which I do now, since it's easier on the ol' knees), and saber (which I play at and get beaten by a 15-year-old on a regular basis) are sport.

Actual combat is a whole seperate thing. If you did some of the things that were taught -- things like tripping your opponent, deliberate disarms, grabbing the other's blade with your gloved hand and taken his weapon away, or smacking him in the face with you knuckle guard -- you'd be banned from sport fencing forever and ridden off the planet by the FIE.

Western martial arts are fascinating. Such things as savate, singlestick, quarterstaff, sambo, wrestling, use of the targe, sword combat in all of its varieties, knife fighting, archery, and others were all taught and developed up to (approximately) the general use of firearms. It can be argued that even firearms, especially handguns, have developed into a martial art -- read Fairbairn and Sykes' WW2 book "Shoot to Kill" as an example, or Ed McGivern's classic work on pistol shooting.

EVERY martial art, from Tai Chi to fencing to throwing the discus, evolved from warfare or other unpleasant encounters. We might not like to admit it but it's true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Blowzabella
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 06:06 AM

Rapaire - might I point you in the direction of this site for your enquiry - it is UK based but has people from other countiries too, including USA http://www.livinghistory.co.uk

Blowz


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 06:33 AM

http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/home.aspx

I am sure you have this one, but the catalog has a number of good examples of baldrics and hangers.

I prefer the hand and a half- but then, I work more on trees...


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 06:36 AM

http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/Accessories/Historical/Belts%20Baldrics%20And%20Frogs.aspx


Here is their page on baldrics...


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 10:00 AM

Gurney, to answer your story:

If there was someone in my yard at night, I'd call the cops. They would, hopefully, know if it WAS a cop and supposed to be there. But what is worrisome to me is that they were carrying a machine pistol, what we here call a submachine gun. Those spray a lot of rounds around and I'd be worried about that -- they can be hard to control (I know from my days in the military!). What sort of person were they looking for? Osama Bin-Ladin? Yes, the cops here have full-auto weapons available, but they don't carry them and only specially-trained people are allowed to use them (semiautomatic 5.56mm carbines are carried in the trunk of the police cars, but even that takes an extra effort to use).

Actually, for "home defense" I have a nightstick. I know how to use it, it doesn't make much noise, and it doesn't leave nasty holes in the furniture, walls, and roof if I do use it. And you can get up close and personal -- my smallsword is 47 inches long and with the nightstick I can move more quickly. Yes, I have several knives, with blade lengths from 2 to 14 inches, but the nightstick, correctly used, doesn't leave bloodstains, either.

And, in case of home invasion, there's the lock on the door to the bedroom and a cell phone to call the cops.

(And if it came to it, there's a double-barrelled 12 bore with #4 buckshot. Locked up. With a trigger lock, too. In the basement. And the ammo's also locked up, seperately. In the basement. Like all my firearms are. Locked up. With trigger locks, too. In the basement. With the ammo locked up in the basement, seperately.)

Oh, yes. Our military re-enactment groups here use bayonets, real ones made of steel. They are mostly used to toast bread and sausages or as candle holders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 12:28 PM

And I just read this thread title as "Suggestions on making a baby."


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: GUEST,Ingrid Frances Stark
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 11:07 PM

A google image search for "baldric" will yield lots of pictures. Some of those sites will probably even have patterns.

Ingrid


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 11:18 PM

I looked. About the only thing that came close to a pattern was a way to make a Roman baldric from two old leather belts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: LadyJean
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 11:49 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 12:50 PM

What do you think of this approach?

1. Make a leather holder for the smallsword which permits the sword to hang straight down.

2. Rotate that holder to the angle you want, then use rivets to attach that holder to another, bigger piece of leather

3. Hang that bigger piece of leather off your belt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: Gurney
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 03:22 AM

I still recon that you'd have to have some degree of counterbalancing, or it would just twist the frog os the baldric.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: The Walrus
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 04:21 AM

Rapaire,

"... it's going to become part of the historical re-enactment personna I'm creating: a former Jaeger, ... who carries a sword he inherited ... who took it from an officer he killed at Skotterud on August 5th, 1814. ...the family fled to the United States... "

Where is the baldric supposed to have come from? Is it the one carried by the 'original owner'? If so, it would probably be white buff leather with the blade hanging vertically, this was the norm for small swords in military service in the Napoleonic period. Light forces such as Jaeger etc. tended to use, sabres, often of the local light cavalry pattern carried (generally) in black leather.

If the baldric is to be civilian, then the section which carries the scabbard should be broader to reaching to the point of balance of the sheathed sword, either one strap (unlikely) or perhaps two (one at the throat and one at the point of balance).

It is possible that rather than a single piece baldric, the method of carriage may be a three part carrier, the section carrying the sword being joined to the rest by two rings, allowing the item to be worn either as a baldric or a waistbelt (often the buckle is a false front and the fastening carried out with a smaller buckle and strap behind - as favoured by, amongst others, the Prussians).

If you want to go into details about uniforms and sword carriage, drop me a PM, I may have some details for the Swedish and Danish-Norwegian armies,I certainly should have some bits on other armies.

Walrus


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Subject: RE: BS: Suggestions on making a baldric
From: NH Dave
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 02:29 AM

Seems to me that you could use any waist belt you liked, or make one to suit, and then modify it a bit.   If you want the belt to stay in place, with the weight of the sword and scabbard, add a shoulder or cross belt, a strip of leather that runs up and around the shoulder and back to the waist belt to keep that side of the waist belt up.

If you fasten the two ends of this cross belt a bit apart on the sword side of your waist belt, you can continue the outer ends of these straps down to become an adjustible sword or scabbard hanger.   You will need two custom or specially fashioned buckles for these ends, rectangular ones with a fixed vertical tongue mounted upright on the crossbar, to engage the holes in the sdjustible straps.

The buckles will be large and wide enough to accept two layers of this belting, and will look like a capital letter "H" with a bar across the top and bottom of the "H", turned onto its side. This will allow the strap to go through the buckle, around the scabbard or sword frog, and back up to and through the buckle, underneath the descending part of the strap end. The tongue of this buckle will be a vertical bit of metal braised or welded onto the center bar of the buckle, at a right angle to the plane of the buckle, to protrude through the adjusting holes on these strap ends.

After you have bought or made two of these buckles, you can hang the sword at any height or angle, whatever makes for a comfortable draw angle, by varying the length of the two ends of the shoulder strap, using the specially made buckles.    As I said earlier, the ends of the shoulder strap come down and either over or preferably, under the waist belt down towards the sword. Run one end of each strap through the buckle, leaving enough of a loop in the buckle so the holes in the strap won't be caught by the vertical tongue of the buckle. Run the free end of the strap around the scabbard or frog of the sword, and back through the buckle, UNDERNEATH the first part of the strap, pressing both down onto the tongue of the buckle. This "free floating" buckle will allow you to make either end of the sholder strap as long as you wish, to raise or lower the position of the sword, as well as adjusting the angle of the sword by shortening the position of the buckle and hence the length of each strap. This will also allow the free ends of these straps to extend up under the waist belt keeping them up out of the way.

If you are only going to make one of these sword belts for yourself this will do. If others will be using this same belt, you will want to make a longer shoulder strap, cut in two, with a buckle around the level of the chest to adjust the heighth of the waist belt and sword, to accommodate the different sizes of your friends, or the members of your crew.

Dave


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Mudcat time: 5 April 1:28 PM EDT

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