Cecil Sharp

Subject: Cecil Sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 07:51 AM

did Cecil Sharp have permission from the source singers he collected from, to issue arrangements in books or recordings, did he pay them royalties, did he pay them for the songs he collected.
Baring Gould ,moeran, kidson , and any other early song collectors as well,.
I would appreciate information from folk Historians or knowledgeable people.

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 08:19 AM

Hi,

My grandfather, Maurice Matteson, collected ballads at Beech Mountain NC. He published Beech Mountain Ballads with G. Shirmer.

Usually the source singers were not paid, but then neither were the collectors. I doubt any royalties or other compensation were paid from subsequent arrangements of the folk songs (but credit was given to the source singer).

The amount of money Sharp made from his arrangements was negligable.

The real problem came when country music recording were made in the 1920's and aslo later recordings (like the Kingston Trio's recording of Tom Dooley). There was real money was involved.

When Vernon Dalhart had the first million dollar seller with the "Wreck of the old 97" the author was never compensated. He took the record company to court, won a $60,000 ruling but appeals tied up the money preventing him from ever collecting.

John Jacob Niles made money off "I wonder As I wander" which he claimed he heard from a little girl and paid her some change.

The problem is that many of the source singers got the song from other singers. They weren't the authors themselves!

Richie

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 08:57 AM

Sharp certainly paid William Kimber when he collected the first tunes in 1899. William Kimber also got paid to go to London to teach morris dancing enough to cover his lost wages and expenses. I've read quite a few instances of sources refusing to sing for collectors unless they paid up front (and, as I recall, they weren't cheap).

Sharp wrote piano accompaniaments for the songs to enable them to be taught in schools for which he got paid. I don't know whether he got, or legally needed, the sources' permission to do this; as Richie says the sources didn't write the words or the tune.

To my mind the words and the tune were, and are, public domain and would not be subject to royalties for the source. However, a sound recording of the source's performance is different and should be a source of income for the performer (and pretty much a source of dispute about money between performers, record companies ect ever since).

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 09:21 AM

did Sharp ever have published songs or tunes on 78s.and if he did did he pay the royalties.
who recorded the early wax cylinders of JOSEPH TAYLOR and was he re imbursed.
so whats the difference between Sharp and kennedy, Sharp exploited his source material for monetary gain, so allegedly did kennedy. IS kennedy vilfied, because he didnt sell them as piano arrangements but put his own melodeon dubbed onto recordings. where does it all begin and end.
guest says the amount of money, sharp made from his arrangements were negligible, Iam sure this applies to Kennedy too.

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: Snuffy
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 09:31 AM

Percy Grainger recorded Taylor on wax cylinder and probably paid him "something for his trouble", but I don't think they were issued commercially. Before cassette tapes and CD burners making records was not a cottage industry: it needed commercial clout

Taylor did go down to London to record for HMV, and several records were issued. I am sure royalties were paid for those performances, but without seeing the contracts I couldn't tell you who got what.

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 09:32 AM

Sharp exploited his source material for monetary gain, so allegedly did kennedy. IS kennedy vilfied, because he didnt sell them as piano arrangements but put his own melodeon dubbed onto recordings.

As far as I understand the situation from what has been said, the source material is public domain.

In the case of Sharp, the arrangements of that material were his own.

In the case of Kennedy, the recordings he used were not his own but the work of others.

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: Brewhouse
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 09:37 AM

Kidson, Sharp and other collectors collected Traditional songs and tunes. They were lmost never written by those who they collected them frm. Royalties were not paid. Fran Kidson who was my Great Uncle sometimes rewarded his singers with a pintb in the pub. Despite the fact that he was himself teetotal he was not against the consuming of alcohol. Kidson made little from publishing the traditional tunes. A lot more information is available if required.

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 10:34 AM

Captain, I think you are treating the words and tune in the same way as the recorded performance whereas I think (as a layman) that they are different.

The words and tune are in the public domain so are not owned by anyone (for instance if Sharp or Kennedy paid a royalty to the source, should that source pay their source and should that source then pay their source and so on and on). Sharp's piano arrangements were written by Sharp based on this public domain material. Sharp therefore had the ownership of that arrangement but not the ownership of the song the arrangement was based on. Similarly, any arrangement that Kennedy wrote was his property too.

To my way of thinking where the song is recorded by Kennedy on to a tape machine, for example, it is the performance that is being copied and sold on, not the words and the tune. This is owned by the source not the collector unless contracts are written, agreed and signed handing the ownership (or some other arrangement) to the collector. I think this is where a lot of the controvesy over Peter Kennedy in the other thread is really about. Whether he had the permission to do with the recordings what he did and if so did he honour these agreements.

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 10:48 AM

I know that there are a number of people who read these threads who have made their own recordings. I'm curious if they pay any royalties when they record a "traditional" song - perhaps to the surving members of the source singers family, the publisher of whatever book they may have read, or the artist whose recording of the same song inspired them to record it as well. Do you also receive permission from those sources? If you find a song from the collection or archives of one these individuals or groups, do you pay them their due?

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 10:51 AM

Ron, I know this isn't particulary relevent to the current discussions but I know there are some old TV programmes that haven't been released on DVD because there are too many people who have to give permission and perhaps one of them refuse or asked too much money (which after all is their right).

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 06:21 AM

I suppose before were through we'll be expected to pay performance rights before we tell a joke we heard...

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 05:06 PM

Our nautical group has done several recordings. When we are aware that the lyrics or musical arangement are the product of someone else, we make a good faith effort to contact them and pay them a standard royalty, 8¢ per CD or $80 US for a run of 1000 CD's. We do this whether the artist has copyrighted the work or not and are careful to print "used by permission of the artist in question" in the notes which accompany the CD.

For traditional songs, we merely credit the earliest source we can identify or whom we learned it from.

We hope that other individuals or groups that want to record our copyrighted songs will do the same for us.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 06:52 AM

glad to hear IT ,and thankyou for mentioning on your site that I was responsible for the tune and musical arrangement of Sailortown.

Im sure when Johnny Collins asked me about recording it, I waived my royalties, on the understanding that he gave me lots of publicity ,I hope he still does. Dick Miles .

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: Deckman
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 10:48 AM

I'm finding this thread quite interesting. Let me attempt to put a little different spin o the subject:

I believe that I'm the LAST singer that can and does perform a local song,local to the Pacific Northwest, USA. I know who "wrote" it and when, but I can't seem to locate her. I'm giving a concert in a few weeks that will be recorded. I intend on performing this song with the PRIMARY HOPE of getting this gem INTO circulation.

I can only imagine that much of the work done by past collectors, and singers, was done to preserve and maintain these songs. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 08:06 AM

Absolutely .many thanks to peter kennedy , seamus ennis, Sean o boyle, John Howson[r.i. p ] , CecilSharp, Moeran,Baring gould , frank kidson,Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 08:58 AM

APOLOGIES TO john Howson. who is very much alive and is the new dirctor of Whitby Folk Week,congratulations john.

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: Fidjit
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 09:20 AM

Now Sidney Carter had a nice song. "Man with the microphone" All about the thieves who took down a ladies song and left her with nothing, But a memory. Ladies beware!

Chas

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: Little Robyn
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 03:41 PM

It's here
Robyn

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 06:17 PM

I have seen a letter written by Louisa Hooper from whom Cecil Sharp collected many songs. She wrote it after Sharp's death, giving an appreciation of his life and his collecting from her, her half-sister Lucy White and others in her social circle. In it she says that Cecil Sharp gave her and her sister new blouses, and bought her a concertina. At today's concertina prices, that would have been a huge reimbursement of the songs that they gave him, and would have provided them with endless hours of music.
I think he played very fair with his sources, judging from this witness statement.
Mary Humphreys

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 03:40 AM

As guest has said, Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
'In the case of Kennedy, the recordings he used were not his own but the work of others'.
There is no comparison whatever betwen the behavious of Sharp and his contemporaries and Kennedy, and even if there was, there is no justification for such behavious
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 04:14 AM

Cecil Sharp gave her and her sister new blouses

What I want to know is - how did he know what size they were?

Or maybe he got them in Marks & Spencer so they could take them back and change them...

... I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 24 - 02:41 PM

ReCecil
i recommend reading this
Fakesong in an Imagined Village? A Critique of the
Harker-Boyes Thesis
David Gregory, Athabasca University
a link to the article
https://www.canfolkmusic.ca/.../article/viewFile/241/235

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 07 Feb 24 - 03:47 PM

The main reason I keep an eye on Mudcat is to try to correct wrong reporting of Whitby Folk Week.
I see that on this thread that someone stated that in 2006 John Howson was the new Director of Whitby Folk Week - presumably taking over from me as I had retired at the end of the 2006 event.
John was a good friend and had we seen this wewould no doubt have had a good chuckle about it and then put the record straight.
What in fact happened was John, an extremely busy man, was asked to make the necessary contacts regarding the truly traditional guests for the 2007 and subsequent events.
This he did and gave the information to a member of the team that had taken up the event. What he did not do was any arrangements of fees, expenses etc and / or any programming. He did not have the time.
For some unfathomal reason "the committee" decided his input was no longer welcome!!!???

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 24 - 05:24 PM

thankyou Malcolm my mistake.i in played with john howson in a bandin the late 70sand 80s,
i suppose i was given wrong info, my humble apologies

Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Feb 24 - 09:56 AM

My stepfather knew Cecil, he described him as a very serious man, whose main enjoyment appeared to be Country dancing with matronly middle aged women