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Sharp in Appalachia

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SEEDS OF LOVE


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Steve Gardham 06 Dec 20 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 06 Dec 20 - 05:19 PM
The Sandman 06 Dec 20 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,Peter 06 Dec 20 - 05:41 PM
Steve Gardham 06 Dec 20 - 05:48 PM
Steve Gardham 06 Dec 20 - 05:54 PM
RTim 06 Dec 20 - 09:12 PM
GUEST,paperback 07 Dec 20 - 03:09 AM
GUEST,jag 07 Dec 20 - 04:35 AM
GUEST,Mike Yates 07 Dec 20 - 05:13 AM
GUEST,Mike Yates 07 Dec 20 - 05:18 AM
The Sandman 07 Dec 20 - 06:21 AM
The Sandman 07 Dec 20 - 06:26 AM
GUEST,Mike Yates 07 Dec 20 - 06:57 AM
The Sandman 07 Dec 20 - 07:54 AM
Steve Gardham 07 Dec 20 - 10:44 AM
The Sandman 07 Dec 20 - 04:48 PM
meself 07 Dec 20 - 06:34 PM
GUEST,henryp 08 Dec 20 - 12:20 AM
The Sandman 08 Dec 20 - 02:56 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 Dec 20 - 03:54 AM
BobL 08 Dec 20 - 03:58 AM
GUEST,Mike Yates 08 Dec 20 - 04:16 AM
The Sandman 08 Dec 20 - 04:48 AM
The Sandman 08 Dec 20 - 05:01 AM
GUEST,Mike Yates 08 Dec 20 - 05:08 AM
Brian Peters 08 Dec 20 - 06:16 AM
Brian Peters 08 Dec 20 - 08:10 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 Dec 20 - 08:35 AM
Steve Gardham 08 Dec 20 - 08:39 AM
The Sandman 08 Dec 20 - 09:11 AM
Steve Gardham 08 Dec 20 - 09:15 AM
Steve Gardham 08 Dec 20 - 09:18 AM
The Sandman 08 Dec 20 - 09:30 AM
Brian Peters 08 Dec 20 - 10:00 AM
Steve Gardham 08 Dec 20 - 10:10 AM
The Sandman 08 Dec 20 - 10:38 AM
Brian Peters 08 Dec 20 - 10:46 AM
The Sandman 08 Dec 20 - 10:54 AM
Brian Peters 08 Dec 20 - 11:18 AM
Manitas_at_home 08 Dec 20 - 11:19 AM
The Sandman 08 Dec 20 - 12:39 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Dec 20 - 01:16 PM
The Sandman 08 Dec 20 - 01:58 PM
Brian Peters 08 Dec 20 - 02:06 PM
punkfolkrocker 08 Dec 20 - 02:35 PM
The Sandman 08 Dec 20 - 02:46 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Dec 20 - 03:12 PM
punkfolkrocker 08 Dec 20 - 03:15 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Dec 20 - 03:27 PM
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Subject: Sharp in Appalchia
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Dec 20 - 02:20 PM

I have little personal knowledge on what Sharp did and didn't collect in Appalachia. I have read what some others have said and I'm aware of some controversy, particularly in America, so I'm interested in different views. I have reread Sharp's and Karpeles's lengthy intros and find a lot to commend in there regarding Sharp's personality and relationships with his informants.

On the Sharp/Wales thread it was suggested that Sharp was only interested in English song and ignored other genres such as songs of Irish or Scottish origin. The very title of his volumes 'English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians' would seem to back that opinion up, but is that the full reality? I have my own theories here, but would be interested to hear from those who have studied the material and facts more closely.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 06 Dec 20 - 05:19 PM

You need to read Mike Yates book(s) on Sharp which should still be available from the EFDSS at Cecil Sharp House.

Mike had access to Sharp's diaries and photographs and also followed in Sharps footsteps on more than one occasion.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 20 - 05:29 PM

i have been reading the The Oak and the Acorn
Music and Political Values in the Work of Cecil Sharp

by Sharif Gemie, published in musical traditions. quote
In this instance, Sharp was arguing for the export of English material to the USA. However, when collecting folk songs in the Appalachians he needed to construct an argument in the other direction: that the Appalachian material was relevant to the British of the 1910s. Sharp's writing shows that he felt no uncertainty at all: the Appalachians he met were English. He referred to 'race' to support this argument:

    [the Appalachians] have one and all entered at birth into the full enjoyment of their racial heritage. Their language, wisdom, manners, and the many graces of life that are theirs, are merely racial attributes which have been gradually acquired and accumulated in past centuries and handed down generation by generation, each generation adding its quotum to that which it received. [100. Southern Appalachians, p.xxiv.] 100

He also used racial concepts when considering which people were most likely to possess usable versions of folk songs. Sharp made an initial decision not to collect songs from black people. To my knowledge, he never produced an articulate argument concerning why black people's versions of older folk songs were irrelevant to his collecting: Sharp seems to have simply assumed that, of course, white people would possess the truest version of the English folk heritage.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 06 Dec 20 - 05:41 PM

"Sharp seems to have simply assumed that, of course, white people would possess the truest version of the English folk heritage. "

Or did he simply assume that there wouldn't be a significant cross over of material into the black community?


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Dec 20 - 05:48 PM

Here are some questions that could be debated.

Was Sharp encountering largely people he perceived to be of English ancestry?

Were those of Irish or Scottish ancestry so anglicised by then that he presumed them to be of English ancestry?

Was he to some extent using the word 'English' in the title of EFSSA in the same way that many others have to actually mean 'English language'? After all he did include in those volumes many native American songs.

The singers would have known at least some art songs so he must have been filtering these out in the same way they filtered out art and commercial songs in English collecting. Did he at the same time filter out any obviously Scottish or Irish songs he came across?

I seem to remember there being a thread on the ethnicity of the mountain dwellers, that many had come south west from New England quite early on and were mainly of English ancestry.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Dec 20 - 05:54 PM

My keybord seems to be hving problems with....Could mudelf plese fill in the missing letter in the title?
    Guess you c*n't kick *ss *nymore...
    M*ybe we should take * collection *nd buy *n extr* *
    -Joe-


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: RTim
Date: 06 Dec 20 - 09:12 PM

This could be a disaster for an editor like you......

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 03:09 AM

Cringe warning...I've been thinking...



Cecil Sharp may not have sought out these Appalachian English mountain folk but vise versa. British folks may not realise it but many Americans have a family coat of arms proudly hung on their wall. Seems to have been a real thing when I was growing up, at least, and probably held true in the past too, even moreso. So, doesn't it only stand to reason that when a bookish English gentleman came to town looking for folk music...well use your imagination.

On a side note: I recently read that the Indians (American) have an interesting opinion on this subject - being these English will never really be righteously received back into the Bosom of Mother Earth because they are not connected here, but there.

I've wondered lately about the Romans too...

Hmmm, how would the Brits feel about a few million Yanks returning home to straighten a few things out:)


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 04:35 AM

In that quote given by The Sandman

"have one and all entered at birth into the full enjoyment of their racial heritage. Their language, wisdom, manners, and the many graces of life that are theirs, are merely racial attributes which have been gradually acquired and accumulated in past centuries and handed down generation by generation, each generation adding its quotum to that which it received. "

I read the emphasis as being on the 'heritage'. I think the second sentence makes it clear that he was looking for culture that was handed down rather than suggesting that it was in the genes (or 'in the blood' as they would have said in his day). So tending not to collect from people with non-English surnames, or dark skin, may have made sense.

Multiple generations later society is more cosmopolitan and there has been over 100 years of access to recorded music, so that doesn't apply. It is far more possible for individuals to have grown up with, or absorbed, cultures that would have been foreign to their ancestors. And we use 'racial' in a different way.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 05:13 AM

Cecil Sharp was well aware that some of the people that he was meeting in the Appalachians were of Scottish and Irish stock. He also says that many of the ballads that he was collecting in the mountains - ballads that he had not previously collected in England - were known to him from Scottish ballad books. I think that Sharp saw a connection between the songs that he had collected in England and with the fact that many of these songs were also being found by Scottish collectors. This does not explain why he used the word 'English' for the title of his Appalachian song book. For some curious reason, it seems that many Victorian and    Edwardian people in England used the term 'England' when referring to 'Britain'. Please don't ask me why, because I don't know why this should have been the case. Jeremy Paxman mentions this in his 1998 book 'The English: A Portrait of a People'. I go onto this in further detail in my 2004 book 'Dear Companion. Appalachian Traditional Songs and Singers from the Cecil Sharp Collection' p. 24. I also mention Maud Karpeles' comment that about one third of Sharp's Appalachian collection was Scottish in origin. Sharp also believed that there was a melodic connection between his collected Appalachian tunes and some of the gapped scales that had once been found in the north of England.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 05:18 AM

I forgot to comment on paperback's comment about Appalachian families proudly displaying coats of arms on their walls. One fiddle player that I met had a printed family genealogy on his living room wall. And he was very proud to show it to me. He had paid $50 to a mail order company to have this made up. His name was at the bottom, his father and grandfather above. There were then a few meaningless names above them before the name 'Bonny Prince Charley' was sitting at the top of the list. It was, of course, a scam. Yet more confusion to Appalachian heritage.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 06:21 AM

Sharps attitude was not much diiferent from Bascam Lunsford was it
Bascam only collected from white people , correct me if i am wrong Apparantly Sharp did refer to black people as niggers, in the context of the times does that make him a racist?


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 06:26 AM

I am sure he was more comfortable having lunch with the owners of Bentley pianos[ and dancing with fat middle aged women on the lawn of their house, as was described to me by my stepfather who described him to me as a very boring man]Than he would have been interviwing leadbelly as the lomaxes did, but i dont think he had the same extrem racist views as Bascam Lunsford, apparantly he generally voted liberal. I dont think anyone would describe Lunsford as a liberal


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 06:57 AM

Mention of Bascom Lamar Lunsford's racist views reminds me of a story told to me, one of many, by the folklorist Kenny Goldstein. It was in the 1950's when Kenny had been recording Lunsford and some of his musical friends. One night Kenny was invited to a party 'where there would be music'. So he went along. It turned out that it was a KKK party. There were lots of comments about the kind of people that they hated, including 'northerners' ('It's OK Kenny, We like you. You're an honorary Southerner.) and also Jews. Kenny guessed that they had never actually met a Jew and that they had no idea that his name, Goldstein, might be a give-away! I asked how Kenny had felt that night, and he just replied that the sweat was running down the back of his shirt all night long. Whoever said that collecting was a boring occupation?


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 07:54 AM

well Sharp seems to have forgotten about the welsh. shame he could not have got a sponsor to PAY FOR A visit Patagonia


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 10:44 AM

>>>>>I am sure he was more comfortable having lunch with the owners of Bentley pianos[ and dancing with fat middle aged women on the lawn of their house<<<<<<.
Dick, I thought you had read the preface and introduction to EFSSA. Having reread them a couple of times now they very much give the impression that C# was very comfortable in the company of the mountain people and that they were very comfortable with him. This fits in with what I've read about his relationships with his Somerset singers. He seems to have mainly fallen out with other middle-class folkies. Perhaps he didn't like competition, or perhaps he was prone to schizophrenia. Maud Karpeles, though, seems to have nothing but praise for him. I will have to dig out my copy of Strangways.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 04:48 PM

Steve i was referring to the fact that he might have felt uncomfortable in the presence of Leadbelly,
Leadbelly, was not a white mountain appalachian ,but a Black ex convict. Sharp fell out with a lot of people, most of them were not folkies. but some were his employers quote from MusicalTraditions
the oak and the corn
While Sharp frequently gained the respect of pupils and parents, he often quarrelled with employers and benefactors. In 1897 he argued with Hubert Parry, a well-known composer, scholar and Director of the Royal College of Music. The issue which divided them was relatively trivial: a disagreement over the participation of one of his pupils at a concert in the Albert Hall, which was probably caused by a misunderstanding. A compromise was proposed, but refused by Sharp, who then resigned from the Finsbury Choral Association. In 1904 - 05 he argued with the owner of the Hampstead Conservatoire, who employed him as Principal. The issue here was Sharp's salary. Once again, Sharp resigned. [11. Fox Strangways, Cecil Sharp, pp.17 and 24.] 11


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: meself
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 06:34 PM

Hard to see how that would relate to how he might or might not have gotten on with Leadbelly, who was hardly employer or benefactor - unless I'm missing something ... ?


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalchia
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 12:20 AM

Cecil Sharp - and Maud Karpeles - suffered enormous personal discomfort on the Appalachian trip of 1916. Local travel was usually on foot over rough mountain roads, and the weather could be hot. Sharp liked to photograph his singers, so he must have taken his camera on many excursions too.

Food and accommodation - and sanitation - were often elementary. Vegetarian food for Sharp was often unavailable, except in some particularly poor places. And Sharp, suffering from toothache, had all his teeth extracted! And yet the rewards were sufficient for them to go back to collect more songs in 1917, and again in 1918. They must have been determined, dedicated and perhaps obsessed.

Quoted by Mike Yates http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/sharp.htm
Sunday, August 13, 1916; I stay at missionary settlements, usually in a log cabin, where I fend for myself - make my own bed and do all sorts of things I am quite unaccustomed to do - and have my meals in the settlement house. It is the Presbyterians who run these places, and some of the women I have met are very nice and broad-minded. But I don't think any of them realize that the people they are here to improve are in many respects far more cultivated than their would-be instructors, even if they cannot read or write. Take music, for example. Their own is pure and lovely. The hymns that these Presbyterian missionaries teach them are musical and literary garbage. In manners they are far superior to the school-mistresses I have met here, all of whom are of the genteel type, and feel very superior.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 02:56 AM

MESELF
Sharp was focused with an agenda, here are a couple of reasons he would not have got on with leadbelly
lEADBELLY did not fit into his agenda. Sharp would not have bothered with him,1because he was not of the right racial heritage,he would have comsidered LEADBELLYS MUSIC music generally did not fit into his agenda[ Sharp missed something such as leadbellys version of the prickly bush]
2
since he[sharp] refers several times to niggers, his attitude apperas to have been one of imperial condescension QUOTE THE OAK AND THE ACORN MUSICAL TRADITIONSHe also used racial concepts when considering which people were most likely to possess usable versions of folk songs. Sharp made an initial decision not to collect songs from black people. To my knowledge, he never produced an articulate argument concerning why black people's versions of older folk songs were irrelevant to his collecting: Sharp seems to have simply assumed that, of course, white people would possess the truest version of the English folk heritage.

Sharp referred to black people as 'niggers' several times. While this is an offensive term, it could be argued that Sharp had simply picked up the term from white Americans he met, and used it unthinkingly. But, in his private writing, Sharp also used the word 'nigger' in an explicitly derogatory manner:


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:54 AM

Viewed from 2020, Victorian/Edwardian 'English' Gentlemen explorers
were an odd bunch of sorts..

Back when I was a militant lefty student at the height of Rock Against Racism,
I decided to write my dissertation on H Rider Haggard..

A casual reading of King Solomon's Mines,
just for the perverse fun of it [to have a laugh at the horrible Victorian Imperialists],
turned out to be the most enjoyable addictive read of my entire degree...

So I worked in a clever dick smartarse angle exploring colonial ideology,
just to convince my lecturer to let me do it..
Then spent the rest of the year immersed in Haggard's stories and biographies..

My conclusions were that he was actually quite progressive and less racist than expected,
as his early life as a colonial administrator
gave him a real respect for the idealised 'noble savage'..

I can't remember if he privately used derogatory language regarding Africans,
but it would be understandable if he did, living in his class in that era..

We have to make allowances that those Victorian gents could be a weird mess of both good and bad contradictions..

Ok, I'm amusing myself taking the piss out of Cecil's adventures amongst my ancestors in Scrumpyshire,
but I can never-the-less take his legacy seriously...

It's still funnier in my mind, visualizing Michal Palin or Hugh Grant
portraying him in a satirical farce.
But that don't mean I might not get to like Cecil
if I could be bothered studying him...???


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: BobL
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:58 AM

May I just mention that in Sharp's day, the word "nigger" was not considered particularly offensive, at least not in England (the U.S. was another matter). Even in the 1950's of my boyhood, it was at worst rather impolite.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 04:16 AM

We cannot know how Cecil Sharp would have reacted to Leadbelly, because they never met. But had Leadbelly sung his version of 'The Maid Freed from the Gallows'(The Gallis Pole) to Sharp, then I am sure that Sharp would have been delighted.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 04:48 AM

Mike, Sharp maid a conscious decision to collect from a limited group, he decided not to collect from black people, and undoubtedly missed material because of his attitude.
I quoted that Sharp made derogatory comment about niggers, that is more extreme than how it was used in common parlance at the time, my quote was from an article in musical traditions, so i have to accept there is truth in the article


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 05:01 AM

My impression is that Sharp was a [ me myself]mé féin.
a variation on the vicar of bray, a man who believed in the end justified the means.
granted his results and end aim was a lot better than Stalin or Mao,

however in my opinion he missed opportunities to collect partly because he was financially constrained and partly because of his agenda
if he is compared to Alfred Williams, Williams collections are important from a socially historc angle because he collected everything he heard.
Sharp would have probably dismissed the Singing Postman[ a master songwriter of the comic genre]although Smethurst was chronicling Norfolk in the 1960s


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 05:08 AM

Sandman. You will also see in the same article that Sharp collected songs from at least two black people.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 06:16 AM

Here’s my take on Cecil Sharp in Appalachia (it’s quite long!). To give a bit of background, between 2011 and 2018 I undertook a major research project on the subject, directed originally towards the concert / audio-visual performance ‘Sharp’s Appalachian Harvest’, which I presented jointly with my American friend and colleague Jeff Davis. We toured for several years in the UK and US, culminating in a performance at the Library of Congress in Washington DC. At that point I decided that the topic merited a proper academic analysis, and went deeper into the research, going through all of Sharp’s diaries for the period 1915-1918 (the only years in which he kept them), available online at the VWML archive, his music manuscripts recording well over 2,000 songs from the trips (way more than were published), the boxes of paper correspondence regarding the Appalachian period stored at the VWML, and the archives of John C. and Olive Dame Campbell held at the University of North Carolina. I published the research as a 15,000-word article in the Folk Music Journal in 2018, which will answer many of the questions Steve and others have posed.

Having gone deeply into the subject, it irritates me a lot to read poorly-researched, biased and blatantly inaccurate writing concerning Sharp in the mountains. A shining exception is provided by the excellent articles by Mike Yates mentioned above, which provided a starting point for my own work. David Whisnant’s ‘All that is Native and Fine’ – a fascinating book essentially about the construction of the myth of White Appalachia – is very good too, fairer to Sharp than most though not always entirely accurate. The article ‘The Oak and the Acorn’ referenced by Sandman, is the opposite: based on the flimsiest research, agenda-driven, and flat wrong in several of its claims.

The first thing to realise is that most authors who have written on the subject have not looked in any depth at the actual material collected – many of them have little interest in folk song at all, and base their opinions on Sharp’s introduction to ‘English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians’, which was written after his first trip and is specific to a particularly remote area of North Carolina. It is regularly claimed that Sharp ignored everything that wasn’t an English / British ballad. This is nonsense. He and Karpeles noted many songs that were clearly of American origin – ‘Pretty Saro’, ‘Omie Wise’, ‘Wild Bill Jones’, ‘John Hardy’, ‘Old Joe Clark’ – you don’t even have to go into the manuscripts to find them, since they are right there in the book. Sharp disliked hymns, both as an atheist and because people sang them from books – but nonetheless collected quite a few – ‘O Sinner Man’ and ‘Pharoah’s Army’ amongst them – that he knew had African-American origins, even though they were sung to him by white singers. The collection includes a number of songs from the Civil War – not old enough to be proper Sharpian ‘folk songs’ but noted down nonetheless – homiletic and parlour songs (mostly unpublished) and a number of what Sharp called ‘jigs’, songs for dancing which were mostly of minstrel origin. There is, it’s true, a disproportionate focus on British songs, especially Child Ballads, which were the things that got Sharp really excited, especially those virtually extinct in Britain, but the accusation that he collected nothing else could only be made by someone who hadn’t bothered to look.

Steve is quite correct about his relationships with the singers. He was often highly complimentary about their musical abilities, he spent a lot of time in their homes simply chatting about matters in general (the opposite of claims that he was uninterested in anything but their songs), he presented gifts (as well as quite generous cash payments) including clothing, toys for children, singers’ photographs, books for a keen reader, an ear trumpet for a deaf woman, and, for a man interested in world geography, a subscription to the American Geographical Society. He developed close friendships and maintained correspondence with several of them. The idea that he would have preferred to go dancing with middle-class ladies is utter garbage. He wrote that the time spent roughing it in the mountains (and they really did rough it!) in the mountains was the happiest of his life.

Regarding black singers. Sharp was persuaded to mount the Appalachian expeditions by the ballad collection of Olive Dame Campbell, a middle-class woman living in North Carolina who had taken down many songs in the backcountry.   On his first trip with Karpeles to NC, her hsuband John C. Campbell directed him to exactly the area where Olive had found the old British ballads, the Shelton Laurel, Madison Co., NC, which was at the time quite isolated and populated almost exclusively by white people of British (mostly English) extraction. This is the area where Dellie Norton, Dillard Chandler, Sheila Kay Adams and other prominent Appalachian ballad singers grew up after Sharp’s time, so not surprisingly it proved a goldmine for him. Many of the subsequent trips were also facilitated by Campbell, who always directed Sharp and Karpeles to areas known to have mainly ‘English’ or ‘Scots-Irish’ populations. When they began to plan collecting trips for themselves in the subsequent years, in Kentucky, Virginia and other areas of NC, they stuck to the same approach. They deliberately avoided areas known for predominantly German populations and, on at least one occasion, a black settlement. We might prefer they had done otherwise, but their primary focus was on British songs, not on the entire range of material to be found in the Southern states, and both time and money were limited. In all of this it’s important to remember that Sharp was an Englishman, the prime expert in English folk song, and had been tipped off that the mountains were resounding to ‘English’ folk songs, so that was his focus. However, as Mike says, he and Karpeles did take ballads from two black singers living in white communities, and Sharp spoke highly of the abilities of both.

Since the ‘n-word’ has been raised, it’s worth pointing out that Sharp’s default word to describe black people was ‘negro’. There are three uses of the offensive term in the diaries, and a few in the music manuscripts – in the sense of ‘N---- Song’ (which is likely how the white singer described it) and no evidence of him using it in public. The horribly distasteful remark in the diary quoted in Mike’s and my own articles concerning Winston Salem also sounds like something he’d picked up from someone local, and for balance it’s worth pointing out that he also described ‘negroes’ as ‘wonderful people’. He had never met a black person before visiting the South, had formed his impressions from the blackface minstrel shows he’d seen in England but, when he actually met black singers, he treated them with respect (I agree with Mike that he would have been excited to hear Leadbelly’s ‘Gallus Pole’). That is not to deny that Sharp shared the racial views pretty much universal amongst people in England at the time, i.e. a belief in the inferiority of dark-skinned races as a given. Guest ‘jag’ is also correct in concluding that, when Sharp writes about ‘race’, he is generally referring to what we would call either ‘nation’ or ‘culture’.

Politically, Sharp was on the left. He was a member of the Fabian Society, (still affiliated to Labour) and joined first the Liberal, then the Labour party. He wished to see capitalism dismantled, but by gradualist, democratic means, and did not sympathise with the Russian revolution (he preferred the Mensheviks).

As far as calling the songs ‘English’ went, Mike has already covered some of that ground. Sharp regarded the song traditions in England and Lowland Scotland as overlapping to a high degree, as some Scots scholars would agree. Although the migration to Appalachia is popularly framed in terms of the Ulster Scots, there was also an extremely large migration direct from England, and many other mountain people with a repository of ballads (such as the Sheltons and the Hicks’s) claimed ancestry from English settlers who had moved up from lowland Virginia. If you look at the actual material, a majority of the Child ballads most popular in Appalachia have their earliest known sources (as Steve will know well) in 17th or 18th century English broadsides: ‘The Housecarpenter’, ‘Lord Thomas and Fair Ellender’, ‘Barbara Allen’, ‘Little Musgrave’, and the same goes for the most popular non-Child songs: ‘Pretty Polly’ (Gosport Tragedy), ‘In Seaport Town’ (‘Bruton Town’), ‘The True Lover’s Farewell’, etc. So Sharp turned out to be right about many of the ballads having been English anyway, even though when he used the term he was well aware that there were many American-origin songs in the collection – I think keeping ‘English’ as part of his brand was important too.

I think I’ve covered a lot of the questions, but there may be more to come…


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 08:10 AM

I knew I'd have more to add...

"Did he at the same time filter out any obviously Scottish or Irish songs he came across?"

There's no evidence of that at all. As I've said, he spread his net much more widely than purely English material, and he wrote that many of the ballads were often to be found in Scots collections like Kinloch's. One thing to bear in mind is that many of the ballads we associate with Scotland, like 'The Dowie Dens of Yarrow', 'Andrew Lammie' or the ballads of Border skirmishes, seem not have spread much to the Appalachians at all - perhaps some of them post-date the migration? And, where Sharp and other collectors in the mountains found ballads popular in both England and Scotland ('Two Sisters', 'Geordie', etc) the variants looked more like the English versions: 'Binnorie' variants of 'Two Sisters' are virtually unknown in the mountains, and most of them don't include magical harps or fiddles.

As to the singers themselves, Sharp wrote that the people in one area he visited were supposed to be 'Scotch-Irish', but that he couldn't discern any specifically Scots or Irish characteristics. He did however refer to one singer in another place as 'a tall Scotchman', and noted that a woman singer he and Maud became friendly with was 'Irish cum French cum Indian'. So he wasn't rigid in insisting they were all pure-bred English, although he did generalise in those terms in his introduction to EFSSA.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 08:35 AM

..It's not too hard to imagine he could have felt obliged to doctor the real life complexity of his findings,
to suit the narrower expectations and preconceptions of 'English' establishment publishers and readers...???

I'm sure a lot of us have had to submit to similar reluctant compromises
at times in our lives,
making difficult progress earning a living...

.. see.. I've already started giving Cecil benefit of the doubt...


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 08:39 AM

Brian, many many thanks for this summary, and to Mike too. Obviously I have, and have read, your excellent work in the past but having it summarised like this is very appropriate to the discussion. As you know my work lies mainly in the songs themselves and their histories, but I am still very interested in the personalities.

I am looking closely at Grainger currently who is very much a minor player compared with the others, but one wonders if he would have gone on to do much more with the right encouragement. Instead he simply lost interest.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 09:11 AM

on a slightly different point, no one has mentioned whether he collected any Welsh songs.In either the english ior welsh language.
It would appear that he did not collect in Wales although Karpeles did. So, Brian you are saying that THE OAK AND THE ACORN and the article in Musical Tradtions is inaccurate and poorly researched.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 09:15 AM

Dick, none of the other collectors at that time went into Wales. They should all have been hung, drawn and quartered!


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 09:18 AM

>>>>>So, Brian you are saying that THE OAK AND THE ACORN and the article in Musical Tradtions is inaccurate and poorly researched.<<<<< I think that's a fair interpretation, Dick!


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 09:30 AM

That society did its own collecting in Wales and the article suggests that they didn't think too much of Mr Sharp!

A brief extract:

"There was a paternalistic slant to the English vision, according to which, folk song was a product of ‘unsophisticated humanity’ with the power to remedy ‘the sordid vulgarity of our great city-populations’ as Parry put it or, in Sharp’s terms, while it might be appreciated by ‘cultivated people’, it also had the merit of appealing to and educating ‘the uncritical’, and ‘will do incalculable good in civilizing the masses’. Sharp also saw folk song as a means of ‘stimulating the feeling of patriotism’, and by this he meant very specifically English patriotism. English education was, he said, ‘too cosmopolitan’ and bred ‘citizens of the world rather than Englishmen. And it is Englishmen, English citizens, that we want’.

Seen in this light, it is perhaps not surprising that the Welsh had certain reservations about Cecil Sharp. The working relationships of the folk song collectors of the four British nations were generally close and collaborative, as the mutual contributions to their various journals reveal, but Lloyd Williams thought Sharp proprietorial and domineering in his attitude to the study of folk song, and noted in his journal for 24 October 1909:

Mrs D [Mary Davies, then secretary of the Welsh Folk-Song Society and a noted singer] interviewed C. Sharp. (No one likes him – he is dictatorial and headlong.) Dictated to her – told her that if she wanted to know about Welsh ballads to go to Wynne Jones Carnarvon [!] His astonishment when Mrs D had gone to discover she was ‘the singer’. "


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 10:00 AM

Hang on, I thought we had a separate thread for Wales...?

I think I've made my feelings about 'The Oak and the Acorn' clear. I don't have the time to offer a full rebuttal here, but here's just one example from the article:

"The old, frail, crippled singers that Sharp seems to delight in are only present as anonymous shadows in his work: not once are we given a pen-portrait of a singer that can be remembered."

This is grossly untrue. I gathered together and quoted in full article a substantial number of Sharp's pen-pictures of singers from the Appalachian trips, which are all freely available online for those who care to look. There are also some vivid descriptions in the Karpeles / Fox Strangways biography of a gypsy camp at which he met Betsy Holland, who sang while breast-feeding her baby: 'Talk of folk-singing! It was the finest and most characteristic bit of singing I had ever heard! ... it was one of the most wonderful adventures I have ever had.' This and other quotes telling the opposite story from that presented in 'The Oak and the Acorn' can easily be found in a book that the author reference several times. Either his reading or his quotations are (to put it mildly) very selective.

Sharp didn't 'delight' in old and frail singers. Rather he bemoaned the fact that so many of the people that remembered the old songs in England were elderly. He was delighted, on the other hand, when he came across younger singers like Betsy Holland, or the many he met in Appalachia.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 10:10 AM

All this demonstrates, Dick, is that he was of his time and had a multi-faceted personality. We are all aware of the difficulty he had with some relationships. Endlessly stressing that he didn't collect in Wales is looking rather silly though!


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 10:38 AM

N0,Steve,
it brings in to focus that there is some truth in the asertion here
Sharp also saw folk song as a means of ‘stimulating the feeling of patriotism’, and by this he meant very specifically English patriotism. English education was, he said, ‘too cosmopolitan’ and bred ‘citizens of the world rather than Englishmen. And it is Englishmen, English citizens, that we want’.
we now have two seperate and unconnected [people asserting that he had an English agenda.
the above and the article in Musical Tradtions
are they both wrong .


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 10:46 AM

"anonymous shadows"

One more go. Far from Sharp's singers being anonymous, every single item in his manuscripts is given a date, place and singer's name. In many cases he took photographs of the singers - go on, scroll down and take a look, these are the kind of people Sharp admired and got on with, much better than with some of his peers in the music establishment. And this was at a time when many collectors in the US (e.g. Frank C. Brown) were not naming singers at all, but referring to sources as 'mountain whites', etc.

Here's the aforementioned Betsy Holland.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 10:54 AM

Brian is there any SUBSTANTIAL evidence that Sharp showed any interest in the singers as people in England or Appalachia, as apparantly Baring Gould did in England, or was he just concerned with the songs, Did Sharp ever pay for any of the songs?
I believe that another collector, Kidson did
this information regarding kidson came from relatives of the collector. My info about Sharp, which came from someone who met him.
I know Sharp was briefly a member of the fabians, but i would be interested to see evidence of any later Socialism,
The idea of him being socialist does not tie in with two other articles which mention english song and patriotism


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 11:18 AM

"is there any SUBSTANTIAL evidence that Sharp showed any interest in the singers as people in England or Appalachia, as apparantly Baring Gould did in England, or was he just concerned with the songs, Did Sharp ever pay for any of the songs?"

I have answered all of these points at length and in the affirmative in my previous posts, Dick. Read my paper in the FMJ, and Mike Yates' article on Mustrad, for more detail.

He was certainly interested in the role of folk song in promoting patriotism (and, consequently, of sealing the importance of folk song in the national narrative), but in his day there was no contradiction between patriotism and Fabian socialism. His political views are described in his biography, and in letters I've read in the VWML. In many ways his ideas were in the spirit of William Morris (who he heard lecture at Cambridge) or John Ruskin.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 11:19 AM

Surely the substantial evidence would be his own notes and letters? Who would bother to describe people they're not interested in?


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 12:39 PM

i disagree i think there were differences then between patriotism and   socialism .
oh yes fabian socilism Ramsay macdonald type socialism
Ramsay did use the excuse of patriotism for his forming a national government and his general selling out to the establishment
the fabians were attacked by none other than H G WELLS QUOTE "They permeate English society with their reputed Socialism about as much as a mouse may be said to permeate a cat".
the fabians such as Ramsay Macdonald were very pale pink socilists
Wiki has this top say about his political views
Political views

While at Cambridge, Sharp heard the lectures of William Morris and became a Fabian Socialist and lifelong vegetarian. He was cautious in his public statements, however, feeling that he had much to lose, since, unlike Morris, he was not independently wealthy but dependent on outside funding for his researches. Respectability was important to him, increasingly so as he got older. According to his biographer, Maud Karpeles: "Any display of singularity was displeasing to him; and he followed the convention in behaviour as well as in appearance unless there was a very good reason for departing from them. 'It saves so much trouble,' he would say."[11] During the post World War II "second" British folk revival of the 1950s and 60s, Sharp was occasionally chided for this by leftist critics such as Bert Lloyd. C. J. Bearman writes that "Lloyd was effectively the first to offer public criticism of Sharp and of the first revival generally. This critique was from a Marxist perspective: Lloyd (1908–82) had associated himself with the Communist Party since the 1930s. ... However, he was always more pragmatic than doctrinaire, and he combined criticism of Sharp's philosophy and methods with high and unreserved praise for his motivation and the epic scale of his achievement."

Sharp was against the women's suffrage movement. His sister, Helen Sharp, was an avid Suffragist who risked arrest and violence for her views. Sharp leveraged sexism throughout his career to undermine female leaders in the first folk revival movement in order to advance his own relative standing and commercial value.[12]


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 01:16 PM

Sharp's relationship with his informants is, taking into account the era in which it happened, well documented and exemplary, both in England and in the Appalachians. With perhaps the exception of Alfred Williams all of the collectors were way above their informants in social standing. However, unlike some of the other collectors Sharp needed to make a living from his music, and whilst he can be criticised for some of the things he did, I don't think he can be criticised for this, especially by someone else who makes his living from his music.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 01:58 PM

So Steve, Sharp is no longer an Amatuer, as you previously asserted.
but a professional , who was constrained financially.
I can criticise who i like if its reasonable to criticise Kennedy for not paying singers how is it illogical not to criticise Sharp for not paying singers
however have I not criticised him yet.I asked a question


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 02:06 PM

Actually Sharp's main source of income during the years in the US was from lecturing. He secured grants from Helen Storrow and other benefactors to pursue his collecting expeditions, and cover expenses in accommodation and transport.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 02:35 PM

Dick 100 years from now [pray humanity survives that long..]

Your biographers, and students of your legacy,
will have a right old confusing time
if they rely on your mudcat posts as a primary source...

Imagine the academic fights as they try, from a 22nd Century perspective,
to retrospectively construct an agreed conception of the real Dick...!!!???

==================

Btw.. do you have a more up to date youtube channel.
How about uploading some of your long unavailable LPs
for us to have a listen to...

I wish you'd spend more of your spare time on that sort of project...


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 02:46 PM

Brian did he get a thousand pounds from an american philanthropist?I believe i mentioned this earlier as how he was able to finace such a long distance trip, prior to that he had been limited by cost to coolectin the west country of england is that correct
I am not sure what your comment is in relation to.
i have never talked specifically about how Sharp earned a living in USA.
I made a comment earlier about how Sharp made money from piano arrangements of folk songs which were published for schools at no time did i SAY that this took place while he was in the USA.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:12 PM

Dick, sigh, what I said was that all of the collectors at that time were amateurs, not in the monetary sense, but in the academic sense, i.e., no training or qualification in folklore. Sharp had musical qualifications but all of the collectors were self-taught in that they were pioneers. There were no qualifications in folk-song collecting, so in that sense they were all amateurs, even Baring Gould and Kidson who were the most knowledgeable.

As for paying the singers, none of the collectors I have known have ever paid singers. Apart from the impracticalities you'd have to have very deep pockets, and someone like Sharp would have soon run out of funds. If there was some moral obligation to do this many many songs would have disappeared completely. Nobody ever got rich from collecting folk-songs. Even people like Scott struggled at times. Having said that Sharp was very generous to his singers in many other ways which are documented in the preface and intro to EFSSA.

Get off your high horse, Dick.


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:15 PM

Here's some fun Victorian cultural context...

It's nearly 4 decades since I last read any Haggard,
so my memories of my diseration research are mostly long gone..

But I can contribute a heavily redacted for spoilers
still favourite quotation from one of his best novels published in the 1880s..

[well.. someone might still want to read it for their first time...???]

Haggard was an ex colonial administrator turned prolific hack writer.
A good 10,000 words a day to pay his bills.
His popular adventure stories were big sellers,
but he had aspirations to be a serious writer.
Sadly his more arty work was a bit too rubbish..

Anyway,...

"I hope I may be able to bring him up to become what an English gentleman should be,
and generally is—which is to my mind even a prouder and a finer thing
than being born heir apparent to the great House of ... ........,
and, indeed, the highest rank that a man can reach upon this earth.
"

That's the prevailing god given nationalist dogma Sharp was also an obvious product of...

pfr - English Gentleman...


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Subject: RE: Sharp in Appalachia
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:27 PM

Whilst Sharp's personality and behaviour in the early 19th century is interesting, controversial and a good discussion topic, at least for me what is far more important is his legacy. The songs themselves were recorded in the best way available to him at the time (with the possible exception of the use of the phonograph) and even his campaign to put folksongs into schools was very successful. Those songs I sang in school at least partially inspired me to follow the course I have done. The first question we need to ask when criticising (and I have done as much of this as anyone) is would his legacy have been as great without the methods he used and the aspects we criticise.


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