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BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?

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Subject: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 01:07 PM

Jeans and t-shirts have been replaced with jail uniforms; children are issued uniforms as soon as they can fit into them — and everyone must wear name tags, even the babies.

Lawyers are reporting that thefamiliess are receiving substandard medical care and becoming ill from the food being served them. Children are losing weight and people are complaining of migraine-type headaches.

http://latinalista.blogspot.com/2006/12/privatized-immigrant-detention.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 01:57 PM

Oh, good, just what we need, another conspiracy theory touted by an anonymous guest linking to highly suspect blog sources.

[sigh]


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 02:27 PM

May you get a life in the coming year.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 03:10 PM

TROLL ALERT!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 03:20 PM

What the heck, the vast USA prison system already in place is a network of concentration camps anyway. No other democracy imprisons such a large number of its own people, and the prisons have been turned into a profit-seeking enterprise. That guarantees abuse and further expansion of what is already a social monstrosity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 03:26 PM

I think the Guest is referring to the T Don Hutto unit 'detention centre' in Taylor, Texas. Two families are presently being represented by John Wheat Gibson, PC. The information is freely available from the i'net. I think the title a bit 'grand', but then it seems the issue is one that needs attention from Americans who still believe their country should have reasonable civil rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 03:38 PM

If (and it's a big if) one grants that people who enter the US without proper papers should be deported when caught, something like this is unfortunately necessary. This facility (and it is certainly not a "concentration camp") houses illegal entrants who are waiting for a deportation hearing; Mexican nationals are not housed here - they are bussed to the border and tailgated. Prior to the opening of this facility and others like it (a brief web search indicates that there are either one or two others), individuals like these were released pending their hearings and, surprisingly, very few ever showed up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 03:41 PM

LOL! It'd be downright amazing if ANY showed up, seems to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 06:58 PM

" No other democracy imprisons such a large number of its own people, "

maybe so....how 'bout we let 'em out and send 'em YOUR way? Or maybe you have better ideas what to do with lawbreakers.

That is a ***statistic***, not an explanation of anything.
The USA is a large democracy, with a large # of people who have committed crimes (drugs are a major problem these days...and a lot of the drugs come from OTHER countries...we could bomb Afghanistan & Columbia and we might have fewer drugs...[he said facetiously])


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 07:06 PM

Yeah, Bill, and you know who pipelines those drugs in in military transport aircraft and makes the deals with the foreign drug lords to do so? The CIA, that's who. And you know why? Because it's a fantastic way of secretly raising billions of dollars for the US government annually without any way of anyone auditing it.

Go to fromthewilderness.com and read all about it. Watch the videos of talks about it by a former LAPD police detective who is clearly a very smart and dedicated man with a lot of courage. Enjoy yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 07:27 PM

On August 22, for LinkTV and Democracy Now! we videotaped the thousands of Katrina evacuees still held behind a barbed wire in a trailer park encampment a hundred miles from New Orleans. It's been a year since the hurricane and 73,000 POW's (Prisoners of W) are still in this aluminum ghetto in the middle of nowhere. One resident, Pamela Lewis said, "It is a prison set-up" -- except there are no home furloughs for these inmates because they no longer have homes.

To give a sense of the full flavor and smell of the place, we wanted to show that this human parking lot, with kids and elderly, is nearly adjacent to the Exxon Oil refinery, the nation's second largest, a chemical-belching behemoth.

So we filmed it. Without Big Brother's authorization. Uh, oh. Apparently, the broadcast of these stinking smokestacks tipped off Osama that, if his assassins pose as poor Black folk, they can get a cramped Airstream right next to a "critical infrastructure" asset.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0609/S00161.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 07:42 PM

And where might one view the video?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 07:49 PM

Guest,Gza, I don't know if you are correct, but for arguments sake I'll agree. Maybe the corollary is that in no other democracy are there so many criminals. Also, as a percent of population how does the US rank in numbers incarcerated?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 09:52 PM

and just WHY should I take the word of fromthewilderness.com, OR a " former LAPD police detective who is clearly... very smart"? for such a claim? Who tells the CIA to do such ridiculous things? Is the CIA buying these drugs? And who is SELLING them to make these billions?

It's so easy to make claims about 'secret' projects of various US govt. agencies when you don't have to 'prove' anything.....just accusing some already secretive agency seems to be enough. If all this amazing information is available to YOU on the internet, why doesn't it get wider distribution?...Oh...right...I forgot, the news agencies are intimidated or paid off. (You gotta tie up the loose ends with obvious insinuations!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 10:42 PM

"No other democracy imprisons such a large number of its own people, and the prisons have been turned into a profit-seeking enterprise."

Interesting statement Gza .... there is a lot of truth in that statement.

If I'm correct and maybe LH can verify this ... the jail for the Simcoe country region in Ontario (located near Penetang) is a privately run institution.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 11:13 PM

Here ya go, number 6:

Prisoner Killed at Private Prison

"May. 6, 2004.
Inmate killed in private prison
RICHARD BRENNAN AND BETSY POWELL
TORONTRO STAR STAFF REPORTERS

An inmate has been stabbed to death at Ontario's only privately run provincial prison, officials confirmed yesterday. "There was a stabbing, the inmate was taken to hospital and he died and there is currently an investigation into the incident," said Adrian Dafoe, a spokesperson for Community Safety Minister Monte Kwinter.

Central North Correctional Centre in Penetanguishene has been dogged by controversy, including health and safety issues, since the maximum-security jail opened in November, 2001."

from here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 12:42 AM

A U.S. private enterprise runs that correctional centre in Penetang (Canada) ... somehow it goes to prove "the prisons have been turned into a profit-seeking enterprise."

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 12:54 AM

Now, Bill... (grin) You know, or I hope you do, that most people believe whatever they heard first about anything...and after that they defend it tenaciously. Also, they tend to discount any evidence which appears not to support their already familiar position on the matter.

Why should you believe what's on fromthewilderness.com? Well, instead of asking me that, which is an essentially useless question, why don't you just investigate it yourself by going there...listen to a whole lecture that man gives about his experiences in the LAPD trying to fight the drug trade and the CIA at the same time...and then come back to me about it.

That would take patience, Bill. Be prepared to spend at least an hour watching a video of one of his public meetings where he explains the whole thing to ordinary American citizens, in exquisite detail, naming names, and explaining just how it is done, and why.

Or else, just fall back on your usual opinion. That's what most folks do.

"If anyone else thought of it, and I didn't, it must be wrong." That's the standard reaction of most people. It's what makes the Internet such an aggravating place to express opinions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 07:48 AM

There has been some move to try and 'privatise' prisons in Oz...

Oh, and look up the furore about the 'privatised' new tunnel under Sydney Harbour... been in the news a lot... even in a TV ad for the Accountants Org, - a shot of the tunnel entrance with very few cars entering, and the words "Never underestimate the importance of numbers"...


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: 3refs
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 08:52 AM

There used to be 2 "for profit" correctional institutions in central Ontario.
The one in Penetanguishene(it's proper name)is a perfect example of how not to house inmates. Corruption and abuse are very prevalent.

The other was called "Project Turnaround". It was for young offenders, up to the age of 18. They did a commendable job of trying to rehabilitate, as opposed to punish.

More later!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 11:05 AM

You are correct 3refs, Penetanguishene is the proper name ... us locals (being originally from that area) just call it Penetang.

"Project Turnaround" ... that wasn't the boot camp for young offenders that they eventually closed down due to the result of a death was it?

Now ... back to the incredibly large population of 'prisoners' in the U.S. ... This is absolutely tragic. The U.S. is the bastion of democracy and opportunity in the world. Why should there be so much crime? .... why so many prisoners? The answer to that is due to the direct result of a very, very profitable global business. The U.S. has a very large market for this business. The 'corporate heads' of that business are not part of that prison population.

Yes ... a lot of $money$ is to be made in correctional institutions .... paralleled only by the amount of $money$ to be made in war.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 11:41 AM

" Be prepared to spend at least an hour watching a video of one of his public meetings..."
.....and an hour or two or three on 27 OTHER conspiracy theories. There are people getting paid very good money to analyze 'news' of this nature, and others who do it as a serious hobby with no built-in agenda. I feel that after *I* have *conspiracy alarms* go off, MY time is much better spent reading the synopses by trusted experts. There is not enough time in my life to personally follow all the threads of all the wild claims I read on the internet..(or even, ahem, in Mudcat threads).
I already understand the way logical errors are introduced by careless reasoning, innuendo & circumstantial evidence are substituted for fact and subjective guesswork employed to fill in inconvenient blanks....and when I see that sort of pattern, I will seldom waste time personally going thru the tedious task of proving a negative. It is up to the accusers to PROVE their claims, not to overwhelm me with stuff like: "it is obvious that" 'puffs of smoke' in a fuzzy picture prove 'controlled detonation'.

Having said all that, I am aware that occasionally, there ARE events that need to be investigated. The Mei Lei massacre in Viet Nam, Abu Graib in Iraq, Enron...etc...and when real evidence is found, real investigations proceed!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"If anyone else thought of it, and I didn't, it must be wrong." That's the standard reaction of most people."

That, sir, is a classic "straw man" mixed with an ad hominem. That is NOT the way 'most people' react; nor is it the way most of these theories are propagated. Sadly, there are folks out there who think the opposite..."If some clever fellow thought of it, and I missed it, he must be RIGHT!" It is an easy path from "I don't LIKE our leaders because they are incompetent & self-centered" to "Our leaders are running vast, evil, secret conspiracies which prey on their own people."

Sorry...but I'll take my chances sorting out REAL problems (of which there are many) from those 'claimed' in threads like this...


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 11:56 AM

"The U.S. is the bastion of democracy and opportunity in the world. Why should there be so much crime? .... why so many prisoners? The answer to that is due to the direct result of a very, very profitable global business. The U.S. has a very large market for this business."

No, that is NOT "the answer"! That is a gross oversimplification of the situation. The U.S. loses far more from criminals running loose than they ever could make by exploiting prisons!! Some prisons try to have programs to keep from LOSING too much money, but YOU need to show ME which ones run at a profit!


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 12:45 PM

I too disagree with your premise, Little Hawk. If you were right we would all believe the same things our parents believed- and a great many people do not.

The part of conspiracy per se that I have a LOT of difficulty with believing is that all vast conspiracy turns upon a great many people being in on it, people who are out to 'get you' and who are willing to employ any means to do so- and keep their silence. It is not logical, and it is not in line with the human beings I love and understand.

That extends to the media- it is easy to say -and believe - that they are in on the conspiracy. But that too is not logical. Many, many reporters are alert to any opportunity to make their mark. They too want to go down in history.

Every once in a while I have an epiphany, an enlightening event that stays with me.

I once was housesitting for a friend. One morning while I was out walking her dog I paused and watched the traffic going to work on the double highway a quarter mile away. It was steady (an average 14 cars between red lights, which is Juneau's version of heavy traffic) but there were no accidents, no close calls, no screeching tires.

And then it hit me- those cars were filled with people, many of whom I knew, some of them my neighbors, ALL of them human beings who shared the planet with me, people who wanted the same satisfactions out of life that I want, people who are saddened by the same losses.

How could I not love them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 12:55 PM

Well, that's a beautiful thought, Ebbie. Good for you.

Bill? Who ARE the "trusted experts"? And what made you decide to trust them, rather than somebody else? I mean, hey, give me some names... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 12:59 PM

If there wasn't a profit, Corrections Corporation of America and Wackenhut Corrections Corporation wouldn't be in the business.

BTW ... I should clarify the profitable global business I mentioned is the world's drug trade. No conspiracy theory here. Just Big Business out there making big $money$. Hell why not create a spinoff (Tax writeoff) business in private correctional institutions.

Yeah I agree Bill the prisons and such are over loaded and many more bad guys walk the streets of the U.S ... isn't this a tragedy of the American society in itself. I don't mean this as a critical snipe at the U.S.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 01:08 PM

we had labour camps here in Britain, and what about when America was at war, tell the Japanese that these camps you stuck them in didn't exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 01:22 PM

The $ySStem talks out of both sides of its mouth when it comes to the conditions that spawn crime.

Look, it works kind of like this:

My town council where I live is purportedly in favour of people parking legally and paying when they park at a meter. Right? Uh-huh. ;-) And they hire a goodly number of "Green Hornets" (parking ticket cops) to go around and make sure you do...or if you don't, they ticket you.

Well, the sad truth is this: They NEED people, lots of people, to park illegally and they NEED even more people whose meters expire or who don't pay........so the city can rake in a MUCH LARGER amount of money in fines than the money they would get if everyone parked legally!!!!! So their real interests are served by people breaking the law and getting caught! Furthermore, all those Green Hornets would be out of a job if everyone normally parked legally. And that would be another kick in someone's balls, wouldn't it?

The $ySStem is set up to both openly condemn crime and subtly encourage it (by default) because that makes money and employs people and provides scope for enlarging $ySStem budgets and $ySStem infrastructure.

In the same way the military $ySStem is set up to encourage and perpetuate war....while simultaneously claiming to be against war and only interested in "defence". Ha! Ha! Ha! That's a good one.

In the same way the drug laws are set up to encourage and perpetuate an enormous international illegal drug trade, give support to enormous crime syndicates, and set up enormous law enforcement and other government structures in regards to a supposed "war on drugs", and it's just one hand washing the other, because it all works together to the benefit of crime and to the detriment of the public.

It's the most self-serving lot of hypocritical nonsense I've ever heard of, and you find it happening just about everywhere. And it's all driven by one thing: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

And that one thing is a fiction. Money is a made-up idea about something that is actually worth nothing until all the people agree to pretend it's worth something, and then they set about seeing how they can screw each other over to get more of it.

It's a religion. And a really, really stupid one too. But we all serve it, because without that $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ you are a helpless outcast with little or no hope of survival.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 01:23 PM

Just because jobs are outsourced & places of work are privatized does not mean that they're making a profit. It could be that the owners (local, state & federal governments in the case of prisons-in the US) are just paying more for something they no longer feel or want to do. Therefore it could be costing the tax payer a lot more money but who cares. It then becomes profitable to those that do want to run the prisons for the possible profits that can be made. So does liability fall on the heads of the private companies running the prisons or upon the penal system responsible which should be overseeing them in the first place? Kind of like Abu Giraud & Guantanamo. Who's minding the store?

As to the overcrowding & the high numbers of inmates, for one the desire to rehabilitate is missing & there's always been a great push to punish & remove the potential undesirables from the general population. The rate of repeat offenders is very high who really cares? Of those convicted of drug related crimes, very few get any drug treatment. If one is convicted of a drug crime they usually can find some sort of treatment but unless it's a drug conviction the rest are out of luck, like the person who gets convicted of stealing, even if it's to support their habit. It cost money to educate & rehabilate & that's not an option our prison system cares about, it doesn't care if we can get the convict to become a contributing member of society after release, they are set up to fail upon release. How hard & how cheap would it be to teach a trade or a skill? So in the end we house more criminals & in the long run it costs far more. The prison system in the US, IMHO, has long been a holding camp for minority & poor peoples cheap labor, an avenue for oppressment, a threat to be held over the heads of the unfortunate as a way to 'tow the line'. The southern system was up until recently (the 60's) a continuation of the older plantation & slave systems & extremely profitable for the whole of the south eastern part of this nations economy.
The set up starts with an arrest, there's the beginning of the process that separates the rich, the well educated, the well connected & the powerful. One gets a high priced lawyer, bail, gets to grease the ways & rub elbows with those that have an influence upon their future & they get to toss around their money, spread their wealth, influence, power & good will & then make attractable bargains. The other gets a public defender that will toss them to the wolves while they sit unable to do anything on their own & on their own behalf & will settle for the worst just to receive what they already know will be the best they can expect from a system that's stacked against them, they have nothing to barter or bargain with & for. Just look at the deals lately that have been pasted on to corporate robber barons. They're getting pretty good deals for committing such high crimes against so many people. Where if you or I were convicted of something far less we'd be doing far more time for our lesser offence. The military deals the same justice. A few years for murder in another land & only the lowly get brought to trial & fed to the dogs while those that would give an order are not even spoken with.

And it doesn't stop there. Why does a poor or minority suspected criminal get such disrespect & ill treatment when a corporate raider like Ken Lay gets better. I would prefer to see Ken Lay dragged out of his high rise office, cuffed & shackled, publicly ridiculed without a chance of bond or bail (didn't he have more money & means to be considered a flight risk than most), have his assets frozen & told that he can be represented by a public defender. See what then happens to those folks when they equal treatment.   

I have nothing to say about concentration camps, though I'm surprised that the government didn't repeat the tragic mistakes that the showed towards Japanese during WWII. Opps, they weren't that far off with there treatment towards Moslems, Arabs & other mid easterners after 9/11.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 01:31 PM

Privatization. This thread turned into a discussion of that, then when it infringed on peoples' comfort zones it became a discussion of "conspirary theories."

Short history of modern-day prisons in the U.S.: Prescott Bush (GW's grandaddy) backed the Nazis. They lost the war in Europe and their loot was transferred to S. America. The Bushes set up shop in west Texas to launder Nazi loot through the oil industry. Along the way they (Bushes) became a major player in the South American drug trade. Then George H.W. got elected V.P., Reagan was shot 2 months later and Bush took over the White House. We had Iran-Contra, with Ollie North and Negroponte and others establishing the cocaine industry in the U.S., while George H.W. took down rogue dealers like Manuel Noriega (we invaded Panama, remember? No reason was ever given). George H.W. pardoned all his criminal conspirators, and now they're back in power (instead of in prison where they belong). And Bush Jr. invaded Afghanistan, where the Taliban had completely stopped opium production, and now it's at 110% over previous top levels. So, the Bushes pump the drugs into the U.S. and then invest the profit into prison industries like Wackenhut and Corrections Corporation of America (companies that build prisons to house drug criminals). That's the basis of the U.S. prison industry now...private businesses housing people convicted of using drugs shipped in by the CIA. Read what the black residents of south Los Angeles have to say about it. They say the Cryps and Bloods are creations of the CIA...they SEE the CIA dropping gang members on street corners to sell drugs. The 'turf wars' of the gangs are just like the Democrat/Republican shell game...you control both sides and threaten to put the other side in charge if your side doesn't play ball. The illicit drug industry has now been stabalized in the U.S., Wackenhut and other corporations are looking at increased income since the federal and state governments have begun linking drug use to terrorism, and someday you're going to have a good 20-cent an hour job in what they'll probably start referring to as "Security Centers" on the news. "A minor disagreement at the Levenworth 'Security Center' today resulted in 'managers' having to 'fire' several 'employees'. Pardon me, that's 'fire on' several employees."

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/camps.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 01:37 PM

"Castillo quickly discovered that the Contra pilots were, indeed, smuggling narcotics back into the United States - using the same pilots, planes and hangers that the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Council, under the direction of Lt. Col. Oliver North, used to maintain their covert supply operation to the Contras...."

http://www.powderburns.org/

The webpage of Cele Castillo, from Texas. DEA (Drug Enforcement Agent) for years, lots of credentials. He says pretty much what I outlined above. Also, he talks about the Clinton's involvement with the Bushes through the CIA drug drop point at Mena, Arkansas. Lots of people have been murdered to coverup the Mena stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 01:52 PM

Good post Barry. It says it all.

No conspiracy theory here ... just the injustice of greed and power.

Well ... I'm off for now. Shuttin down for Christmas. Just a plain simple family gathering. No snow, but who gives a hot tomale.

Merry Xmas

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 01:59 PM

"Reagan was shot 2 months later and Bush took over the White House"

If you are an American, Guest, you should know your history better than that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 03:12 PM

He probably means that Bush took over while Reagan was convalescing. In any case, I believe he is right on the mark with the rest of it. However, it's not something any of us can do a danged thing about, that's for sure.

My way of dealing with narcotics is simple. I don't take them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 03:30 PM

If that is what he meant, LH, that is really sloppy writing. Reagan is never mentioned again and yet we know that he was the principal in the Iran Contra affair.

Guest is a smear master.

Mind you, I'm not a Reagan or Bush apologist- would never vote for either but it's just too damn easy to sling stuff and in the process making yourself one of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 04:43 PM

What a perfect description for public schools in American cities.

CONCENTRATION CAMPS!!!

Drive by one of these fine educational institutions and you will see - "Jeans and t-shirts have been replaced with uniforms; children are required to wear uniforms as soon as they can fit into them — and everyone (including teachers and secretaries and cafeteria aids) must wear name tags - meals (free) are slopped down twice a day (don't ask, they won't tell) - the restroom's stinch will make you retch and vomit your way to the 10 foot high fences and yeah the backsides have barbed wire.

Badges, we don't need no stinkin badges to know a concentration camp from roadside rest area.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 05:35 PM

and you live where? I drive by many of these institutions, and I don't see those things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 06:07 PM

USA's prison population a record, but growth slowing

By Richard Willing, USA TODAY

The population of the nation's state and federal prisons rose to a record 1.47 million last year, the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics reported Sunday.

from
here.

About 100,000 of the inmates are female.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 06:55 PM

I expect that housing inmates costs the same there as in Canada--roughly. If so, at $50,000/year, and that doesn't take into account court costs, prisoners are taking about 73 billion dollars a year to keep behing bars. That is lots of money, at least where I come from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 08:26 PM

If any of your Christmas crap has a label with UNICOR on it, the item was made by U.S. prison slave labor:

"...The 13th Amendment reads as follows: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted shall exist within the United States." That means that if you've been convicted of a crime, you are legally allowed to be a slave....

Products bought by the U.S government are bought from UNICOR, which is the trade name for Federal Prisons Industries. Yes, prisoners even build desks for members of Congress. UNICOR proudly displays on its web site that it is "where the government shops first."

http://www.geocities.com/youth4sa/prisonlabor.html

And as far as Reagan being president for two terms, that's not what happened. Not technically. He was shot two months into his first term, and George H. W. Bush began assuming power:

"Bush is functioning much like a co-president. George is involved in all the national security stuff because of his special background as CIA director." -- White House press secretary James Brady, March 1981

http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/HinckleyAndBush.htm

Reagan was incredibly popular and Bush couldn't beat him out of the nomination, but Reagan had to accept Bush as V.P. (forced on him by George Schultz, David Rockefeller and the other power brokers who really run America). Then the Bush cabal attempted to kill Reagan but didn't succeed. Reagan got the message though, and he began radically changing his conservative policies. So, Bush took over the White House after the shooting of Reagan, ran it under Reagan for 8 years, then served a 4-year term as president himself.

And a Bush acquaintance was used in the Reagan assassination attempt:

"Neil Bush, son of the then vice president of the United States, was scheduled to have dinner on March 31, 1981, with Scott Hinckley, brother of John Hinckley, the day after a bullet came within an inch of making Neil Bush's father the new president of the United States. Even though John Chancellor had let slip out this most remarkable assassination coincidence shortly after John Hinckley tried to kill President Reagan, it was censored by NBC News and the other organs of the national news media during the subsequent 10 years. And even in the several months of extensive coverage of Neil Bush's part in the massive savings and loan fraud, no mention was made of his role in the continuing coverup of the most significant story in the 1980s."

http://www.new-enlightenment.com/reagan_assassination.htm

By the way, John Hinckley's father (John Hinckley, Sr.), was involved with World Vision, a CIA front group and brainwashing organization. They trained assassins. There's lots of information on this organization on the internet.

So, Bush Sr. feels cheated out of the presidency and tries to claim it through assassination, but he fails. But Reagan gets the message and lets Bush have his head. Reagan really DIDN'T know about Iran-Contra. Bush ran that whole thing. Bush focused on drugs (the "democracy in Central America" thing was just a cover to set up the smooth flow of cocaine into the U.S.), and now we have that whole Iran-Contra group back in power. Bush Sr. pardoned all of them of their crimes before he left the presidency, then Bush Jr. brought them back into government. Just one of them, John Negroponte, is responsible for the death squads that killed upwards of 500,000 in Central America. He's now head of the CIA. His primary job is to keep the drug pipeline open. This is all "Modern American History 101." Basic stuff. Gangsters have seized the U.S. and are turning it into a giant prison for their personal profit.

Do you folks really not know this stuff?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 09:16 PM

(1) Involuntary servitude is not the same as slavery. Most prison inmates work, either in jobs that reduce prison overhead (ie, doing the laundry) or producing something of intrinsic value outside the prison system. (2) UNICOR sells some material, including cheap desks, to the US government, among other buyers. Government buyers are generally required to buy from the low bidder, which UNICOR usually isn't. (3) Reagan made a full recovery within 2 months of being shot. G.H.W. Bush was not in charge except for the few days that RR was in surgery and post-op recovery.

Do you really not know this stuff? Do you really believe that it is all a vast conspiracy? Is there a propeller on your aluminum beanie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 09:27 PM

Prison inmates do telemarketing work, among other things. You probably talk to a couple per week. And UNICOR makes a lot more than desks. UNICOR is the American equivalent of Communist China's infamous sweatshops. Last look, the avg "wage" for American prisoners was 23-24 cents per hour, BEFORE overhead is deducted. And if your office assistant put a bullet in you and then told you he's taking over, artbrooks, how much would you protest? The Bush/CIA machine has been running the Executive Branch since the day Reagan was shot by a Bush family friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 10:23 PM

"Shot by a Bush family friend" is rather a long way from shot by the crazy brother (who had previously stalked Jimmy Carter) of an otherwise unremarkable man who had planned to have a business dinner with the VP's son the next day; both lived in Denver and both were in the oil business. Believe it or not, there really is such a thing as a coincidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:22 AM

Not in politics there isn't, art.

It is illegal drug money that secretly finances the USA to the tune of many billions of unaudited dollars every year, and it's channeled and controlled by the USA's secret service, the CIA. The sources of most of the drugs are places in the Third World where the USA has fought or proxied dirty wars...and won them...in Central America and Afghanistan, for example.

And no, I'm not Guest, I just happen to agree with him on this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 01:10 AM

Ye blithering Gods!!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 01:14 AM

Hey, man, you don't have to agree with me to keep me happy... ;-)

We all have our opinions, and we all base them on whatever we've come across that we found reasonably convincing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 02:10 AM

This is one time, Little Hawk, that you really, truly need to say that this is somethng you THINK. To say: "It is illegal drug money that secretly finances the USA to the tune of many billions of unaudited dollars every year, and it's channeled and controlled by the USA's secret service," is not only gullible and irresponsible and yes, blithering, but also not reasonable.

Just think- our troubles are over! Instead of worrying about the debt that we're accumulating for our children's children, all we need to do is sell more drugs.

Pass the alumin(i)um, folks. If we're to get past this, we're going to need lots more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:24 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:30 PM

Spaw, your link " www.yuradumfuck.com" doesn't seem to work for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:33 PM

HOLY SHIT!!!! ANOTHER GAWDAMN CONSPIRACY!!!!!

SOMEONE IS HACKING MY WEBSITE!!!!!



Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 01:06 PM

Spaw can you make you fonts more consistant ... you go from very large, to large, then to small and then backup to large and very large. I have to take my glasses off tho read the large, then put them back on to read the small and then I have to ......

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 01:14 PM

*choking while suppressing giggles* (at Ebbie's demand for more aluminum AND 'spaw's wonderful business venture.)

You realize ALL this is because "satellites are hacked"


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 01:34 PM

Get a life, Spaw. ;-) I can't even be bothered reading that shit. Nor can I be bothered learning the html codes to replicate it.

Yeah, Ebbie, I think that is what's going on, and I think it has been going on for a very long time. I have numerous reasons for thinking so.

It is not important whether or not that seems credible to you or Spaw or any other particular individuals on this tiny little unimportant Internet forum, believe me.

None of us can do a thing about it anyway. We are all getting old, we're going to die fairly soon, the world will go on without us, and there will continue to be corruption in high places and politicians who lie and launder money. There will also continue to be plenty of good people, wonderful people, doing very neat things, and life will go on. Young people will fall in love, and poets will dream glorious dreams.

The only reason I talk about stuff that interests me here is this: I enjoy expressing my thoughts. It gives me something to do. So do the rest of you, and THAT is why you post here on a daily basis if you do.

It is inevitable that we will disagree about numerous things and never resolve those disagreements. That's life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 01:54 PM

remember our friend Cansouth?

He really got around....He never got around to telling US about his 9/11 theories, but he signed in at The Museum of Hoaxes to enlighten them! Did he ever buy one of your kits,
'spaw?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 01:57 PM

It's lots of fun to type out one's momentary thoughts, isn't it? ;-) Addictive, in fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 02:02 PM

momentary? MOMENTARY???? I'll have you know I thought for.....minutes! before posting!


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 02:26 PM

Well...okay...I guess you're just a tad more mature than most of us, Bill. ;-)

This thread is not about the most cheerful of subjects. Perhaps I should start one on dachshunds, and we can come back to this stuff after the holidays are over?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 02:27 PM

AhhhSpaw Youhavelearned OldGrasshopper!!!

Warms the cockles of me heart... it does.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

BTW - World Vision is a wonderful Christian Organization - thousands of criminals may have donated to its cause - but that does not make it criminal - anymore than thousands of drunkards eating at the Salvation Army make there outreach an alcholic oasis... (Soup,Soap,Salvation)


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 02:29 PM

Oh, goody! More html I can't be bothered to learn. (One only has just so much time for things...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 02:42 PM

Little Hawk, I agree that there are many things we don't know- and may not even be able to know. And some, no doubt, that we don't even want to know.

But beliefs still have to stay in the realm of possibility. And I say: If the USA were doing what you say it is doing, it would mean that there are hundreds, thousands, maybe even millions, of ordinary people in collusion. Stop and think- do you believe that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 03:51 PM

Sorry, LH, but it seems to me that accepting your basic premise that it is illegal drug money that secretly finances the USA to the tune of many billions of unaudited dollars every year, and it's channeled and controlled by the USA's secret service, the CIA requires that one first accept that an agency that is world-renowned for its basic incompetence is (1) highly competent in the very competitive world of drug smuggling and (2) has managed to make everyone except a few conspiracy theorists believe that they can't do anything right.

The rest of the statement, that the sources of most of the drugs are places in the Third World where the USA has fought or proxied dirty wars...and won them...in Central America and Afghanistan, for example may be partially true. That is, the US has certainly "fought or proxied" a number of nasty little "wars" in these places...dirty is subjective...but I'm having trouble coming up with very many that have been "won" except on a very short-term basis. Or is the success of Mr. Ortega and the resurgence of the Taliban considered to be part of the CIA plot?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 04:02 PM

"Nor can I be bothered learning the html codes to replicate it."

Actually LH it's not difficult at all ... more of a pain in the ass to use when posting ... especially if one is as sloppy as I am in my typing skills.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 04:15 PM

No Ebbie, I think there are only a relatively small number of key agents in collusion, certainly not the rank and file of the soldiery, and the normal workings of organized crime do the rest. The government only needs a small number of agents and commanders to move drugs in bulk to stateside, in unmarked or falsely labelled containers, using military aircraft. A few small elite units can do it. They then sell it in bulk to a few major criminal contacts in the USA, and from there it moves to the street. All those people can definitely be depended upon not to talk...because that is their job, and that's how they make a living.

From there it works its way to the street through literally thousands and thousands of dealers and suppliers who don't know exactly where it's coming from, and more importantly than that, don't care.

I don't regard the CIA as incompetent by any means...they just can't achieve the impossible. ;-) In other words, what I mean by that, is when a civilian USA government hands them a foreign policy objective (as in Vietnam, for example) that is totally out of touch with reality...they eventually fail to achieve it. That does not indicate their incompetence, it indicates the incompetence of their political commanders.

Moving drugs requires a small cadre of highly trained and absolutely ruthless people who will do what they are told and keep their mouths shut. That sounds like the job description of a secret service agent to me.

Money is the vital thing. If you have to raise large amounts of it fast and show no paper trail, drugs are the way to go.

It's simply Realpolitik, as always. The USA is not the only country that has done it.

The so-called "War Against Drugs" is not really a war against drugs at all...it's a turf war for who gets to control and distribute those drugs. That's why opium production has gone way, way up in the USA-controlled areas of Afghanistan since the recent war there began. Business is good.

And, yes, that's what I think. To KNOW it, I'd have to part of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 05:22 PM

On the basis of the principle of "innocent until proven guilty," I await some solid, credible evidence for these assertions.

It is not necessary, in logic--or in any court of law--for anyone the try to disprove an assertion. To be taken seriously, the burden of proof falls on the person making the assertion or accusation.

I see a whole lot of accusing going on in this and other threads, but I see little credible proof. And no, cutting and pasting from various blogs and web sites with obvious axes to grind not only don't count as proof, they tend to weaken the assertion because of their obvious bias.

I love a good conspiracy theory as much as anybody else, but bullshit is still bullshit.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 05:27 PM

Yup, well that's fine. I'm not in a high enough position in this world to provide the proof you seek. If I was, someone would kill me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 06:09 PM

So it's all just rumor, then.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 06:16 PM

Now they we are really on the hot topic of conspiracy theories ... what really did happen the Lizard King???

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 07:16 PM

" I'm not in a high enough position in this world to provide the proof you seek. If I was, someone would kill me."

right...why am I somehow reminded of the way my old Psych. professor described Freudian psychology? He took a pen and turned it over & over in his fingers, tapping it on the table.

"The Freudians," he said, "tell me that if I do this, it is something dirty."

He put the pen in his pocket. "But if I do this, I am repressing something dirty. They define everything so that they are always right."

(remember the 'conspiracy' to hide the 100 MPG carburetor? We don't have one, so it MUST be hidden!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 07:29 PM

remember...to be believed and convincing, it is not necessary to be right...you just have to have a certain degree of internal consistency, whether or not you have facts & reason on your side.

The philosopher David Hume managed to convince a LOT of people that Solipsism was the way 'reality' worked. Everything just might BE "only in your mind". Hume had a nearly air-tight way of showing his theory was 'correct'....very consistent internally.....after you accepted his (very suspect) premises.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 07:36 PM

There were no concentration camps in Germany, either. Hell, even after the war no one knew about them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 07:46 PM

I have heard for a long time that the CIA is deeply involved in drug dealing, and often finance many of their covert operations that way. Do I believe it? Yes, I'm inclined to believe it. Indeed, there is a lot of stuff that our beloved GUEST keeps posting that I think contains an occasional element of truth. At least to a degree.

Do I think the United States government is corrupt? The government, per se, no. Do I think a lot of high level politicians and government officials are corrupt? You betcha!!   

I've been saying for a long time that this country is one helluva lot closer to fascism than a lot of Americans are willing to believe. The intimate relationship between the government and the major corporations is one of the primary characteristics of fascism. I have often quoted Benito Mussolini's definition of fascism in these threads. I won't this time. I leave it as an exercise to those who might be interested to do some googling and read it for themselves.

Do I think this whole Iraq war is about oil? In a sense, yes, but not just to commandeer oil so that American oil companies to reap huge profits by selling it to American consumers. I think the point is to gain control of enough of the world's oil resources to be able to "influence" ("blackmail" is such an ugly word) other countries who are, as far as we know, short of such resources, into "being nice." But if, say, China were to discover a vast oil field in the Yellow Sea, just offshore from Qingdoa all the way down to Shanghai, for example, the whole game would change and the real purpose of the Iraq war would truly have been in vain. We couldn't shut their oil off because they'd have their own.

Do I think there are wealthy and powerful families who are trying to dominate international finance and trade? Damned straight it do. 'Twas ever thus. This is not news!! If these families ever decided to join forces, we might have a problem, but they're too busy jockeying with each other to be "King of the Hill" (to scramble a metaphore) to constitute a serious danger to the rest of the world. This, also, is old stuff.

Prison labor? Yeah, there's some of that going on. Where were your car's license plates made? Traditionally, by prison labor in some states. Comprenez-vous "chain gang?" You know:   lining track, breaking rocks, road repair, Leadbelly, "Take This Hammer," lotsa other good songs. . . .    Some states do have prisoners work to help pay for their keep, but then a prison sentence is not supposed to be a luxury vacation. I see nothing outrageous about this. But slave labor? Freakin' ridiculous! And concentration camps? During World War II, Japanese-Americans got a bloody rotten deal and the government's been apologizing for it ever since. Concentration camps now? The paranoid delusions of fear-mongers and trolls.

Do I think the country is in deep doo-doo? Yes, I do do. And I think we have to get active politically and change things. VERY active politically. But do I think we're DOOMED as GUEST troll keeps telling us with grim and vengeful delight? No. What makes GUEST troll, shall we say, "counter-productive," is that his elaborate fictions cloud the real issues and, if we allow them to, distract our attention from things that are really going on. And he tries to create the impression that there is nothing that we can do about them. Note the consistent lack of response when I ask "what do you think we should do?" This is obviously a person with a problem. He wants all his dire warnings to be true. He wants all those who don't take him seriously to "get theirs." He wants a bloody revolution. Very juvenile. Kinda sick, really.

By the way, the Kerry Commission investigated some of the dealings of the CIA in relation to drugs and they turned up quite a bit. The investigation, as far as I know, is still going on.

And, yes, it's that Kerry.

Take a nap. Go for a walk. Get real. Then, go to work. Politically. On your local level, where you as an individual can actually have an effect.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 08:04 PM

Ah, Don Firth. Love you.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 08:08 PM

Bill, I am in no position to prove anything to anyone on this forum who disagrees with me about something, and I never will be. Nor will you. Get used to it. We are all just expressing opinions here, and thinking out loud. That's all it is. Fer Christ's sake, we are having an idle discussion like a bunch of people in a coffee shop somewhere. ;-)

If you don't see it my way, fine. No sweat. The world won't stop turning, and I will still die someday regardless. Ditto to Don and Artbrooks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 08:15 PM

'Fer Christ's sake, we are having an idle discussion like a bunch of people in a coffee shop somewhere'

I wish it was ... sometimes people just take things a bit too seriously.

so ... what really did happen the Lizard King???

.
.
.
ok ... I'll get out of this thread.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 08:21 PM

By the way, Don, since you are an American citizen, I follow your reasoning just fine, and it's pretty good reasoning. I agree with your analysis of the problems in the USA. I, however, am a Canadian citizen. I live next door to the burgeoning fascist monster that is your government, and I do not enjoy the proximity of it to my nation. That may account for some of the differences in our views. You want to do something about it because you ARE American. I get that. I'm not, and I am in no position to do anything about it.

Canada living next to the United States is like a small, basically fairly peaceful animal living next door to a hungry and possibly rabid tiger. It's worrisome.

But it has always been that way for small countries in the shadow of great powers. One makes alliances where one must, in order to survive, and hopes that the fire will fall on someone else's head. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 08:23 PM

BODE LIVES......BODE RULES

CHEECH WIZARD FOREVER

...........Just tryin' to cheer the Hawkster up.........................

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 08:29 PM

Jeeeezuz .... there he goes again.

....


ok, I'm outta this one for good.Honest.


biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 09:03 PM

"Fer Christ's sake, we are having an idle discussion like a bunch of people in a coffee shop somewhere. ;-)"

naaaww, LH...it ain't quite like that. In the coffee shop, people might wonder..."what if the CIA is really doing weird stuff with the drug trade? Why, I read something in that Mudcat forum that made me curious..."

That is a wee bit different from saying "The CIA **IS** doing this" or even "I believe the CIA is doing this."

It is when I am being **TOLD** that such & such IS true, and that I'd better wise up and pay attention, that I get my back up and start picking apart arguments. Curiosity and concern are one thing..(and there IS much to be curious & concerned over)...but blanket statements are another ("satellites ARE hacked!")...and reading back in this thread, I see many, many claims....not musings, *claims*.
   If all you wanta do is raise an issue, fine...I'll 'discuss'...but if you say "I believe" or "This is fact"...you need more than speculation based on ambiguous circumstances.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 09:08 PM

Well, Little Hawk, your agreement with and support of GUEST troll's delusions, even though you admit that it's just opinion with no verification, is aiding our anonymous Jeremiah's efforts to distract us from the real issues. Granted, you can't do anything about it yourself, but if you can't be part of the solution, it doesn't help us much if you become part of the problem.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 09:20 PM

The CIA is the most competent organization in the world. Its job is to blow things up and create chaos, so Anglo-American-Israeli interests can pick up the pieces and make money doing so. Been that way since 1948. Been especially bad since Bush # 1 capped his boss and took over the White House.

And since "drink the koolaid" is such a favorite phrase around here, you folks really ought to look at the Hinckley/Bush connections to the brainwashing organization known as World Vision. The below is about the murder of congressman Leo Ryan during his trip to Guyana. Ryan was pushing legislation to make the CIA report to congress. This murder has Bush/CIA/World Vision painted all over it:

Leo Ryan's murder is seen by many as being much more sinister than the hysterical behaviour of a madman. Leo Ryan had been a strong critic of the CIA and was the author of the Hughes-Ryan Amendment, which, if passed, would have required that the CIA report to Congress on all of its covert operations before they commenced. Soon after Ryan's death, the Hughes-Ryan Amendment was quashed in Congress. The question conspiracy theorists ask is whether Ryan was killed in order to reach this objective and the massacre at "Jonestown" merely a smoke screen to distract attention away from Ryan's murder?

Witnesses at the airport, where Ryan and four others were murdered, described the gunmen as being "glassy eyed", "mechanically-walking zombies" who were "devoid of emotion...."

...a number of unusual deaths that have occurred since the "Jonestown" massacre. The first of these occurred in Georgetown at the People's Temple headquarters at the same time as the "Jonestown" massacre. Charles Beikman, an early Jim Jones follower who had become an "adopted son" was found to be responsible. Apparently, Beikman was also a Green Beret, of which there were over 300 in Guyana at the time on a "training exercise."

Nine days after "Jonestown," San Francisco Mayor George Moscone and Supervisor Harvey Milk were killed. Both men had received financial support from Jones while he was in San Francisco and were involved in an ongoing investigation into their involvement in the disappearance of People's Temple funds. Dan White, described as being in a "zombie state" at the time of the killings, murdered them....

Some time later, Michael Prokes, a former member of the People's Temple, informed a press conference, held in his motel room, that the CIA and FBI were secretly holding an audiotape of the "Jonestown" massacre and that he was an FBI informant. Immediately following his announcement, Prokes went into the bathroom where he supposedly committed suicide.

The final area of concern in the "Jonestown" massacre regards the official US decision not to conduct autopsies on the victims of the massacre; the reason given was that the cause of death was readily apparent. The results of pathology examinations conducted by Guyanese coroner Leslie Mootoo however, revealed his belief that as many as 700 of the victims were murders, not suicides. Mootoo claims that in a 32-hour period he, and his assistants, examined the bodies of 137 victims. They had all been injected with cyanide in areas of their bodies, which could not have been reached by their own hand, such as between the shoulder blades; many other victims had been shot. Charles Huff, one of the seven Green Berets who were the first American troops on the scene following the massacre, claimed that "We saw many bullet wounds as well as wounds from crossbow bolts." Those who were shot appeared to have been running toward the jungle, away from the compound, at the time they were shot.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/jonestown/connections_5.html

Jim Jones was CIA/World Vision. No telling what the CIA was doing at his compound. Testing drugs and brainwashing techniques, most likely. And they needed a damn big diversion to get the news off Leo Ryan's death, so 900+ died. You all remember that, but do you remember that Ryan was going to make the CIA responsible to congress? Cyanide injections, bullet wounds...and 300 Green Berets in the area on a "training exercise."

And the same Bush/Negroponte/Ollie North group that oversaw that mess is now in charge of the ENTIRE U.S. MILITARY. Not just 300 Green Berets this time, but the whole thing. And they've gathered 4 U.S. carrier groups near Iran. The largest assembly of this type before was during the U.S. involvement in Viet Nam, when only 3 groups were massed. The fourth group to be put into position, 2 weeks ago, was the Eisenhower, which has the largest support group of minesweepers. Iran will try to mine the Gulf of Hormuz if it is attacked.

What I'm saying is, the U.S. military is now under control of the old Iran-Contra criminals, and these aren't just your run of the mill criminals. They'll murder a thousand to divert attention from one. Murder 3000 in NYC to consolidate power.

You children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 09:26 PM

SEE WHAT YOU CAN DO USING ONE OF OUR KITS?

AIN'T THAT GREAT?

Order yours today!!!!!

Fuckyall Bullshit Associates
Bremen, Ohio 43107
www.yuradumfuck.com


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 09:27 PM

That's another reason for impeachment and trials for treason, by the way. Unbalancing the U.S. fleet and leaving us vulnerable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 09:35 PM

GUEST, Frederick Forsyth, Ken Follette, and Tom Clancy write that kind of stuff for a living. You might have a career for yourself there. You're wasting your time and talent on us "children."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST,Frank, the coffee shop manager
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 10:03 PM

Coffee shop's closing. Everybody out now.

Cheap loafers. Why don't they go out and get job rather than hang around here all day arguing this bull shit crap.

Hey, I wonder what did really happen to the Lizard King.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 10:14 PM

"Now, NEWSWEEK has learned, the Pentagon is intensively debating an option that dates back to a still-secret strategy in the Reagan administration's battle against the leftist guerrilla insurgency in El Salvador in the early 1980s. Then, faced with a losing war against Salvadoran rebels, the U.S. government funded or supported "nationalist" forces that allegedly included so-called death squads directed to hunt down and kill rebel leaders and sympathizers. Eventually the insurgency was quelled, and many U.S. conservatives consider the policy to have been a success—despite the deaths of innocent civilians and the subsequent Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages scandal. (Among the current administration officials who dealt with Central America back then is John Negroponte, who is today the U.S. ambassador to Iraq. Under Reagan, he was ambassador to Honduras...."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6802629/site/newsweek

Here's a good piece from a government news organ. About a year and a half old. The death squads are up and running now in Iraq. They pulled Negroponte out of mothballs and gave him a job in Iraq doing what he does best (death squads), then they put him in charge of our CIA (after the "rules" were change to allow the CIA to operate against American citizens). So look for a death squad in YOUR neighborhood soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST,Frank's wife
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 10:19 PM

Hey Frank. Turn up the radio! I can't hear for the racket this dishwasher makes. Yeah, I really like that on. Haven't heard it in years.

Turn it up, nice and loud Frank!


"I wanna tell you 'bout Texas Radio and the Big Beat
Comes out of the Virginia swamps
Cool and slow with plenty of precision
With a back beat narrow and hard to master

Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance
Others, mean and rueful of the Western dream
I love the friends I have gathered together on this thin raft
We have constructed pyramids in honor of our escaping
This is the land where the Pharaoh died

I'll tell you 'bout Texas Radio and the Big Beat
Soft drivin', slow and mad, like some new language
Now, listen to this, and I'll tell you 'bout the Texas

I'll tell you 'bout the Texas Radio
I'll tell you 'bout the hopeless night
Wandering the Western dream
Tell you 'bout the maiden with wrought iron soul"


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 10:35 PM

I could link to photos of Negroponte's work in Central America, if you people can't deal with the words:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Sections/Newsweek/Components/Photos/050104_050110/050108_Salvador_wide.hmedium.jpg

Got more pics if you want. Turn up the radio.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 10:47 PM

WWII America had camps, Germany had camps, Italians had camps, Japenese had camps

For camps, prevention of disease and preservation of life and labor is a primary issue. Whatever the illness, flames sterilize and reduce the problem.

Simple economics, when there is surplus the the need to conserve diminishes.

After the SWIFT MEAT PACKING raids, the employment lines were filled to abundance with USA citizens WANTING jobs denied them by Mexican Nationals using wrongful documents. Take care of our country's citizens first and let Mexiconos deal with their own revolution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 11:19 PM

Well-said, other Guest. And Mexico does indeed have a revolution. A brand new stolen-elected presidente, just like ours, and govt troops killing teachers, like we could have any time now. Many Mexicans are giving up and going home because of the rapid devaluation of the dollar. Less and less difference between a peso and a dollar every day. I wish all the Mexicans would go home, to defend their country, while we defend ours.

Poor catters. Can't stifle the free exchange of ideas. What's the internet coming to?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 11:36 PM

Note:

"False, libelous and anonymous messages are a problem the Internet must come to grips with. In no other medium can an individual find himself facing scurrilous lies that he would never be confronted with in "real" life.

"Remailers and Internet access providers such as Prodigy and America On-Line are waking up to their potential liabilities as conveyors of anonymous libel. "

A Sick World


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 11:52 PM

Good god! How far is the CIA willing to go? President Gerald Ford is no longer with us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 11:55 PM

Cheech Wizard sucks eternally! As for the Lizard King, his whereabouts remain mysterious to this day, despite the efforts of Jim Morrison fans to unravel the matter.

I think Guest raises a lot of extremely interesting points, guys, and I think the standard Mudcattian Elder Statesman routine of just rolling the eyes and making smart cracks about tinfoil beanie caps and stuff like that renders you a whole lot less to be taken seriously than him. ;-) You don't really have an argument, just an attitude.

Of course, when you're way up there on that gleaming ivory tower in the rarified air of your little tiny internet club that you've been in for the last few years...it's hard to see clearly all the way down to the ground, right?

He may be right. He may not. He may be partly right. And you don't know if he is or not. Neither do I, but I'm interested in what he's saying. You just don't like it that he rattles your comfort zone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: heric
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 12:44 AM

An awesome theory is that the situation in Iraq is proceeding as exactly as was intended.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 01:00 AM

Yeah. ;-) But by whom?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 01:32 AM

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Sound familiar at all, Ebbie? You're gonna make a fine Neo-Dem Stalinist, aren't you? Gotta clamp down on those who disagree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 01:55 AM

Just type in "CIA drug connections" for decades worth of reportage. Biggest open secret in the world. From just one site:

In Guatemala, Castillo was ordered to conduct his drug raids with the Guatemalan Military Intelligence (G-2), better known as "La Dos", despite the fact that the G-2 runs the death squads that have murdered thousands of people including Americans in that country. In the course of his investigations Castillo discovered that almost every top official in the Guatemalan government (under President Cerezo) was a documented drug trafficker.

Cele was next assigned to represent the DEA in El Salvador at the height of the Contra war. It was there that he began to record intelligence on how known drug traffickers, with multiple DEA files, used hangars four and five at Ilopango airfield to ferry cocaine north and weapons and money south. Hangars four and five were owned and operated by the CIA and the National Security Council. He found out that the traffickers were also being given US visas by the CIA, in spite of their well known activities. Castillo also documented and spoke out about CIA and National Security Agency abuses in a manner utterly consistent with his heritage and the reats of his life.

Then Cele discovered that the Contra flights were under the direct supervision of US Lt. Col. Oliver North (DEA case file GFGD-91-9139) and had the additional protection of Felix Rodriguez (a retired CIA agent) who ran hanger 4 at Ilopango. Castillo was repeatedly warned that the drug profits were being utilized to support the Reagan-Bush backed right-wing "Contras" in Nicaragua and surrounding countries and that he should stop his investigations. Nevertheless, he continued to file DEA 6 reports and telex/cables on these operations. Castillo's reports contain not only the names of traffickers, but their destination, tail numbers, cargo and the date and time of each flight. Some Contra files were reported on DEA case file # TG-87-0003, under the name of Walter "Wally" Grashiem. The other Contra files were reported on GFTG-86-9999, Air Intelligence (El Salvador) and GFTG-86-9145 El Salvador.

Castillo's detailed reports on the cocaine laden planes went unheeded by DEA officials in Washington. Castillo was warned by his boss, Bob Stia and the U.S. Ambassador to El Salvador, not to interfere with the covert operation because it was protected by the White House....

http://www.cia-drugs.com/symposium/index.html

Case numbers, report numbers, tail numbers. All my imagination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 02:43 AM

Wild accusations and libelous slurs are protected under freedom of speech but the point is that never before have they been able to zip around the world as quickly as they do now.

And Little Hawk, if you took a look at the sites where Guest gets his "information" you might be less impressed. He is doing NO orignal thinking- what he reads happens to fit into his paranoia and grandiosity. If he weren't talking about this, he'd have found another subject just as far fetched.

That is NOT to say that there is NO truth in what he says. All things are more plausible when they have some truth to them. A half truth is more dangerous than an actual lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:56 AM

Exactly, Ebbie...these folks take 'real' data, photos, quotes...etc and arrange them in ways so that they seem more relevant than they can ever be proven to be. In all of these theories, you get sucked in with half-truths and 'interesting' correlations, then, if you are not careful, these bits are 'linked' with a statement that requires a leap of logic and subjective interpretation that may...or may NOT be an accurate representaion of the truth.

Since we know that 'some' chicanery does happen, and that abuse of power also happens, it is not hard to 'suggest' that it proceeds to higher levels and degrees. (The claim that Marvin Bush 'controlled' security at the Twin Towers is one example...when all he did was have a seat on the board of ONE company that did 'some' security work there. Insinuations that this shows something sinister are stretching it.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:12 AM

That is NOT to say that there is NO truth in what he says. All things are more plausible when they have some truth to them. A half truth is more dangerous than an actual lie.

Very true. But closed minds are more dangerous than either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:50 AM

100


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 12:56 PM

"But closed minds are more dangerous than either." Guest

You just don't reach hoary years without having considered many things, many options, many possibilities, over and over. I would guess that old people are less closed minded than the young. It is a process.

As Bill D says in another connection (paraphrasing: "I would love to be given what I consider irrefutable proof or overwhelming evidence as to what you say. That evidence is lacking."

Not that you've reached the hoary years, Bill. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 01:33 PM

The bits and pieces of information I present aren't random and they're not used without thought. I just build cases using circumstantial evidence. It's enough to convict in a court of law, so why not in the court of public opinion?

I know you folks want to hold onto your little piece of safe, familiar world, but the world is being re-engineered at the point of a gun. You people in your whorey years may not give a damn, but I suppose that's because "you got yours" or you don't have kids, whatever, but I don't like the slave-world being erected around me. I've studied it, and I see how it's being created and how your attn is being misdirected from the evidence. So I present the evidence. Beats watching football.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 01:48 PM

Circumstantial evidence may be enough to convict in court, provided there is an overwhelming amount of it, but even so, it's often proven later that it's wrong. What often convicts innocent people is "circumstantial evidence" rather than hard evidence.

Just because someone thinks you're full of it, GUEST, does not mean they have a closed mind. No rational human being is going to swallow the kind of thing you're trying to sell without giving it a thorough examination, or without asking for some kind of verifiable evidence beyond the cut-and-pastes from the blogs and highly biased web sites you've been offering. So far, you've come up wanting.

Now, pay attention, GUEST. A common misunderstanding about the Constitution and its various components, such as the Bill of Rights, is that it applies to the government, not to private citizens. Simply put:
The government is not allowed to do anything, unless it is specifically permitted by the Constitution.

Private citizens are free to do anything they wish, unless it is specifically forbidden by the Law.
In the heat of argument, one sometimes hears, "I can say anything I damn well please! We have freedom of speech in this country!" True. Up to a point. The government cannot stop you from expressing your political opinion.   But—if you tell a lie (whether knowingly or not) about someone, or badmouth them to the extent that it could potentially damage their reputation, you are subject to the laws of libel (if what you said is written—and that includes posting on the internet) or slander (if what you say is spoken). You can actually be sued for both, if you both talked and wrote about the person or people in question.

Now some people think that politicians, movie stars, the very wealthy, or other people who live essentially public lives, are fair game for anyone to take pot-shots at. Not so. Many an enterprising investigative reporter, who should have spent a bit more time getting his or her facts straight, has been hauled into court and sued right out of their socks for printing or telling lies about some celebrity. In such a case, the defendant's only defense is to prove that what he or she reported is true. And they should have made sure they could do that before they sat down at the word processor or started shooting their mouths off. And, mind you, libel and slander laws apply, not just to investigative reporters, but to anyone and everyone.

So, First Amendment notwithstanding, you'd better be careful about what you say. We do have freedom of speech in this country. But along with that freedom (like all the other freedoms we enjoy) goes being held responsible for what you say.   And do.

Considering the unsupported allegations you keep spreading, there is good reason for you to try to remain anonymous. But just remember—IP addresses are not that hard to trace.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, Little Hawk, don't worry about my "comfort zone." I have full knowledge of the mess this country is in and, if anything, that's what disturbs my comfort zone. Nothing our anonymous GUEST has said disturbs my comfort zone any more than reading a John Grisham novel would. Only Grisham's work holds together a whole lot better than GUEST's and is a lot more entertaining.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 03:49 PM

There was a very good programme on over the holidays in the UK - showing how the Beatles were villified in the US for John daring to suggest that christianity was becoming less of a force to be reckoned with to the younger generation. Footage of burning LP's and much stamping of feet was of course shown.

He wasn't wrong at the time as history has undisputedly shown us. He had no hard evidence at the time. But that didn't make him wrong.He saw what he saw with both eyes open and had the open mindedness to look ahead.

Some people don't like their beliefs being questioned. That doesn't make the questioner wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 03:56 PM

Grisham makes a lot more money doing it too, Don. By American standards, I guess that makes him a success.

I was referring more to the comfort zone of the Mudcat social club than anything else. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 04:26 PM

Say, Don, I've never read one of those Grisham books. Nor have I read any other such fiction in that kind of political/thriller genre. It doesn't interest me for some reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 05:29 PM

The United States has been under Invasion. Texas,NewMexico,California,Arizona,Colorado have been identified for "repatriation" to Mexico as part of the agenda for AZATLAN.

Prisoners of War (and their co-conspirators) are placed in concentratiion camps for their own safety and the safety of the public.

SOME STATISTICS from the Los Angeles Times

40 percent of all workers are working for cash and not paying taxes.

Why would they want to be legal and pay taxes? They would be able to start bringing the rest of their families to the USA.

75 percent of people on L.A.'s most-wanted list are illegal aliens.

Over two-thirds of all births are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by the taxpayers.

Nearly 25 percent of all inmates in California detention centers are here illegally.

Over 300,000 illegals are living in garages.

The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegals from south of the border.

Nearly 60 percent of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

Of the 10 million people in Los Angeles County, 5.1 million speak English and 3.9 million speak Spanish.

21 radio stations in Los Angeles are Spanish speaking.


Less than 2 percent of illegals are picking crops but 29 percent are on welfare.

Over 70 percent of the U.S. annual population growth (over 90 percent of California, Florida and New York) are from immigration.

29 percent of inmates in the federal prisons are illegal aliens.

The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a negative.

They also send between about $15 billion back to Mexico to assist their families and prop up the corrupt Mexican government that keeps most of its citizens in poverty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 05:41 PM

Well, it's all driven by gross economic inequality, isn't it? Maybe certain people in this world, certain populations, are getting way too big a piece of the pie. As long as that situation endures you will see this kind of emigration of poor and desperate people to more affluent areas. It's always been that way, and it always will be. The only way you can calm a society down and create harmony and peace is by ensuring that there are not a great many people "on the outside looking in" (in the sense of their material well-being).

Or you can just kill everyone you don't like...and establish a new Nazi death camp system.

I prefer the former approach. That's why I'm basically a socialist, philosophically speaking. I do not believe in a society based on cutthroat competition, division into the few rich and the many poor, and survival of the fittest (meaning, the riches and most well-armed and ruthless). I envision society as a family, not a jungle. In a family everyone gets properly fed and housed and gets full medical care at no charge. That's brotherhood.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 05:49 PM

This is news to you. . . ?   

Were you born in a cave, lived there since birth, and just emerged within the past month or two?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 05:55 PM

Is that a rhetorical question? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 06:01 PM

Thanks for doing the needed follow-up post, Don.....I was too pooped to type today. (we've been **car shopping** arrrgghhh)

"Circumstantial" needs to be understood.....and what constitutes 'convincing' evidence can be distorted easily. "Guest" certainly does like to suggest a notion of "open mind" that differs from mine. The way he does it, it feels more like "gullible".

It is NOT that these theories need to be accepted unless we can roundly disprove them, but rather that, given their nature, they need to be considered suspect, unless they are supported by more than half-truths, insinuations and subjective linking.

As I said in another place, there are folks who get paid to trace down these issues.....I'm not one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 06:31 PM

What make/model of car do you think you'll be purchasing Don?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 06:35 PM

One that drives upside down in the sand?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 06:42 PM

"there are folks who get paid to trace down these issues.....I'm not one"

Yeah, Bill, that's my point as well...when people say to me, "Prove it!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 06:50 PM

"one that drives upside down in the sand"

Is this sorta like something from Dune?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 06:58 PM

"They also send between about $15 billion back to Mexico"

WASHINGTON -- A new congressional analysis shows the Iraq war is now costing taxpayers almost $2 billion a week.

A mere drop in the bucket.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 07:10 PM

First of all, Little Hawk, I think we cross-posted. My remark was addressed to GUEST. The statistics regarding illegal immigrants have been drizzling in for decades. That they should be a surprise to anyone is a surprise to me. Big bloody revelation! Hey!! Did you know that the sun rises in the East!??? Wow!!!

What you said in your post immediately above my last post, I agree with 100%.

And Bill, exactly so. I've heard dozens of conspiracy theories like this all my life. I think everyone has. There's always someone out there who's "in the know" (wink wink, tap side of nose), and he's going to let you in on—The Big Secret.

And then he lays some story on you that involves a cabal of wealthy people, often disliked merely because they are wealthy and/or politicians who belong to the Other Party. They're engaged in an intricate, convoluted, and downright baroque plot to Take Over the World and Make Slaves of Us All. The details and "circumstantial evidence" become mind-boggling in their complexity—and their very "circumstantialness," if I may use such a word. Then, when you are not immediately convinced, the teller of the tale often becomes contemptuous or abusive, accusing you of rank ignorance, lack of imagination (!), stupidity, having a vested interest that causes you to deceive yourself, or actually being in on the plot yourself!   

I'm sure this sort of thing has been going on for millennia. And once in a great while, one of the hundreds, if not thousands, actually turns out to be true! And, of course the person "in the know" cites that as further evidence for his story.

The story that GUEST is trying to put across does have some elements of truth to it. But he's knitted those elements together with so much supposition and assumption and offered downright irrelevant information by way of "evidence," (typical of the classic, blatant "conspiracy theory"), then strains to expanded it to a global scale. It simply lacks credibility.

There are enough real predators out there for me to waste my time trying to hunt down the Dreaded Tyrannohipporhinogriffosaurus Rex.

Definitely! One should keep an open mind.

But not so open that your brain drops out!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 07:18 PM

There are many motivations other than the search for truth that may motivate GUEST to post unprovable theories. There are those who just like to stimulate a pile-up of people who could spend their time better. Or divert them from posts where they are whipping the GUEST under their real name. These come under the rubric of stirring the pot.

Othertimes it's an attempt to throw something, anything at the wall and see if it will stick. This may come under the study of credulosity.

There's way more out there than can possibly be true. GUEST is well within that domain.

I file GUEST incited threads as well nigh useless in most cases, unless there is a viable reason for a member to go nameless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 07:56 PM

Thank you for your input.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 08:02 PM

Very good robomatic ... so true.

There are those in the Cat whose egos that are way too high up there.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 08:14 PM

What I meant is .... there are those in the cat with egos that are so held high on a pompous pole and whether Guest intended or not, he did stimulate a pile-up of these people who could spend their time better.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 08:49 PM

number 6, what you are writing off as "ego" might just be an abiding respect for the truth. Attempting to counteract efforts to obscure that truth is a truly noble endeavor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 09:02 PM

Attempting to counteract efforts to obscure that truth is a truly noble endeavor.

Well shitfire Bub, just tryin' to interpret that sentence is pretty noble by itself!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 09:06 PM

Everyone in this world suffers from the conceit that they have "an abiding respect for the truth"...meaning, moreso than some other people. ;-) I'm sure Al Capone felt that way too. It's normal to feel that way if you have a conscious ego, because everyone wants to know the truth about anything they consider important. Whether they will tell the truth or not is unpredictable, but they sure as hell all want to know it...because who would want to NOT be in the know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 09:17 PM

I started this thread just because I came across the story at the top. It's relevant, so I posted it. Camps are up and running in the U.S. Doesn't matter who's in them really, just the fact that they exist should be worrisome. The camps of today are an extension of Ollie North's Rex 84 plan (look it up, it's no freakin secret or conspiracy). The same cabal that built camps decades ago is is back in the game and building more camps, while they pass laws declaring the right to assemble and protest to be "terrorism." If you're not concerned about that, then you're brain dead.

Damn, now I guess I better find some Rex 84 stuff for you non-believers. BRB.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 09:18 PM

Well you aint gonna find the truth here in the Mudcat especially in a thread titled "Concentration camps in the U.S. don't exist" ... spending all day posting long winded threads that probably on average took 15 or more minutes each to construct ... and I'm sure as hell Capone wouldn't have wasted much time on this thread looking for the 'truth', hell he had businesses to run, enemies to take care of ... and he certainly wouldn't waste his time arguing with Guest or aligning himself with Guest.... and he probably didn't take himself as serious as some here do.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 09:33 PM

Rex 84: Mentioned briefly in the Iran-Contra hearings and then, poof, it wasn't mentioned anymore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:11 PM

A good article--fair and balanced--on Rex 84. Don't say no one told ya.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST,Rex 84
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:25 PM

Damn. Even your beloved Wikipedia govt-mouthpiece shouts openly about Rex 84. Everythings just fine and dandy in the US of A, oh, except for those "subversives" that might need to be rounded up from time to time:

Rex 84, short for Readiness Exercise 1984, was a plan by the United States federal government to test their ability to detain large numbers of American citizens in case of massive civil unrest or national emergency. Exercises similar to Rex 84 happen periodically.[1] Plans for roundups of persons in the United States in times of crisis are constructed during periods of increased political repression such as the Palmer Raids and the McCarthy Era. For example, from 1967 to 1971 the FBI kept a list of persons to be rounded up as subversive, dubbed the "ADEX" list.[2]...

...Rex 84 was mentioned during the Iran-Contra Hearings in 1987, and subsequently reported on by the Miami Herald on July 5th, 1987. [5]A number of websites and alternative publications that span the political spectrum have hypothesized upon the basic material about Rex 84, and in many cases hyperbolized it into a form of urban legend or conspiracy theory. Nonetheless, the basic facts about Rex 84 and other contingency planning readiness exercises--and the potential threat they pose to civil liberties if fully implemented in a real operation--are taken seriously by scholars and civil liberties activists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84

lol. They'd SURE like to debunk this as an "urban legend," but they can't because of congressman Jack Brooks of Texas, bless him:

Few, if any noticed what transpired during the Iran-Contra investigation before with Oliver North on the stand and congress all on TV. During the questions asked of Oliver North, which seemed smoothe enough, until one day a Representative by the name of Jack Brooks asked the following question:

"Colonel North, in your work at the N.S.C., were you not assigned, at one time, to work on plans for the continuity of government in the event of a major disaster?"

North's Counsel, Brendan Sulivan shouted "Mr. Chairman?"

Senator Daniel Inouye: "I believe that question touches upon a highly sensitive and classified area so may I request that you not touch upon that?"

Representative Brooks shot back: "I was particularly concerned, Mr. Chairman, because I read in Miami papers, and several others, that there had been a plan developed, by that same agency, a contingency plan in the event of emergency, that would suspend the American Constitution.

"And," Brooks continued, "I was deeply concerned about it and wondered if that was the area in which he had worked. I believe that it was and I wanted to get his confirmation."

Senator Inouye: "May I most respectfully request that that matter not be touched upon, at this state. If we wish to get into this, I'm certain arrangements can be made for an executive session."

(From the transcript of the Iran-Contragate hearings, July 13, 1987.)

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37acc9007f81.htm

Video of the question and non-answer is at the link below. Fascinating...before the Brooks clip there's a thumbnail history of how FEMA has been changed from an "emergency" organization into a "repression of rights" organization:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4594384794934869193&q=jack+brooks+fema&hl=en

The "continuity of government" mentioned way back then is important because it was first implemented on September 11, 2001 by Dick Cheney, and we've been operating under it ever since (maybe...they won't say). But on 9-11, 200 bureaucrats were snatched up from here and there and flown to bunkers. Since then, this "shadow government" has been expanded in size (maybe...they won't say), and we're now ready for the suspension of the American Constitution that Jack Brooks was concerned about. I mean, look at that S.O.B. Ollie North flaunting the authority of an elected representative. Ollie North of death squad fame. So disgusting. He and Negroponte and their cohorts should be rotting in prison, not running things again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:35 PM

Here, and hear. Google the following and give it a look and listen.


YouTube - Oliver North Questioned - Rex 84 Exposed During Iran Contra


I cannot get it to link direct.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:37 PM

'(From the transcript of the Iran-Contragate hearings, July 13, 1987.)'

It is on youtube and available with a Google of the thing I just posted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:42 PM

'"FEMA provides a new frontier in the protection of individual and governmental leaders from assassination, and of civil and military installations from sabotage and/or attack, as well as prevention of dissident groups from gaining access to U.S. opinion, or a global audience in times of crisis."-- General Frank Salzedo, chief of FEMA's Civil Security Division 1993'

I wonder why y'all don't ask your government just how much of FEMA's budget goes to disaster preparedness and how much to actual physical buildings in which the select will be sheltered from harm?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:56 PM

Yeah, that's one of my favorite pieces of video, Peace. I think the link I posted to it is working.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:05 PM

Sorry. I hadn't clicked that link when I found the youtube thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:06 PM

I am sure you're quite correct that Al Capone would not have wasted his valuable time here, 6. ;-) As you suggest, he had more pressing matters to deal with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:07 PM

"There was a very good programme on over the holidays in the UK - showing how the Beatles were villified in the US for John daring to suggest that christianity was becoming less of a force to be reckoned with to the younger generation. Footage of burning LP's and much stamping of feet was of course shown.

"He wasn't wrong at the time as history has undisputedly shown us. He had no hard evidence at the time. But that didn't make him wrong.He saw what he saw with both eyes open and had the open mindedness to look ahead."
Guest

Talk about convolution. As I recall, the brouhaha came about when Lennon said that they (the Beatles) were "more popular than Jesus". What is the second paragraph about?

"I mean, look at that S.O.B. Ollie North flaunting the authority of an elected representative. Ollie North of death squad fame."

I doubt that you mean "flaunting", Guest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:20 PM

JOHN AND PAUL 1966
(during the 'Jesus statement' controversy)
JOHN: "I was just talking to a friend of mine, who also happens to be a reporter. I wasn't saying The Beatles were 'better' than God or Christianity. I could have said motor cars are more popular than Jesus. I just used the name Beatles because I can talk about us easier to use as an example, especially to a close friend. The point of what I was saying came from what I'd read and observed of Christianity. It just seemed to me to be shrinking. I wasn't saying it was bad. I was just saying that it seems to be shrinking and losing contact."

PAUL: "And we deplore the fact that it is, you know."

JOHN: "When the story of it came out in England, a few people wrote in the papers, 'He can have his own opinion,' and then it just vanished. It was very small. But by the time it got over here and was put into a kid's magazine, it just lost it's context and everyone started making their own versions."

Q: "As this has begun to die down, a great many ministers have agreed with you in the full context of what you said. Most of the oversimplification of what you said has come from the 'Bible Belt.'"

PAUL: "Yea, they seem to think that John is trying to get at them, but he isn't at all. It was just a straight comment on something, which may be right or may be wrong... but he's got to answer as he feels honestly. If they think for him to do that is wrong, then they don't believe in free speech. I thought everyone here did."


You see Ebbie your quotation marks don't actually mean that is what he said. It wasn't what he said. It is what you believe. Dwindling congregation figures bears out his opinion although at the time it wasn't based on irrefutable fact.

Sometimes people are so scared of the message they shoot the messenger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST,ADEX
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:39 PM

From an article that mentions ADEX (referred to in the Wikipedia piece about Rex 84):

ADEX was the name of a FBI plan to identify theAmericans to roundup. The ADEX subversive list was maintained from 1967 to 1971. In Vietnam the ADEX approach was implemented in a program called Operation Phoenix. The number of South Vietnamese citizens executed in Operation Phoenix ranges between 21,000 and 70,000. The importance from ADEX is that we knowfrom our history that the people on the right side of issues like civil rights and protecting our democracy are put on FBI lists. We know from a Washington Post February 15, 2006 disclosure that the National Counterterrorism Center maintains a list of 325,000 people. The January 2005 Civilian Inmate Labor Program, an Army regulation related to rounding up Americans, is also available on www.freedomfromwar.org.

The shocking fact is there are already hundreds of prison camps in the United States. The vast majority of the prison camps are already staffed and surrounded by armed guards. These prison camps have railroad facilities, existing roads, and often an airport nearby. Where are they? Active and non-active military bases are ready to receive dissidents in part due to the January 2006 Halliburton contract enabling these facilities to quickly be "upgraded" to receive prisoners.

To fill the now empty prisons, FEMA only needs the president's signature on a proclamation, the attorney general's signature on a warrant, and a list of names attached to the warrant....

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?p=adex+list+names+rex+84&ei=UTF-8&fr=sfp&x=wrt&u=www.freedomfromwar.org/Are%2520You%2520With%2520Us%2520Or%2520Against%2520Us.pdf&w=adex+list+names+rex+84&d=WKfNx0VuN5VE&icp=1&.intl=us


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:45 PM

Guest, this is not an important thing to me. The Beatles had no impact on me whatsoever. You, however, are being disingenuous or perhaps deliberately misleading. You quote McCartney and Lennon AFTER the tempest. You never say one thing as to what was said.

Take a look at this (Note their quotation marks):

"Today in Odd History, The Evening Standard published a long, rambling interview with John Lennon in which he proclaimed that the Beatles were "more popular than Jesus." Although there was little reaction to his statement in England, Christians elsewhere embarked upon a massive campaign to destroy Beatles albums and other paraphenalia. Lennon apologized for the remark later, and the Archbishop of Boston admitted that he was probably right, but many still refused to forgive him."

What He Actually Said


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:52 PM

Point being ebbie he was right. But according to some on this thread it is impossible for anyone to be right about something unless there is irrefutable proof.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:57 PM

"We know from a Washington Post February 15, 2006 disclosure that the National Counterterrorism Center maintains a list of 325,000 people."

That number is an international one, Guest. However, no one knows how many Americans are on that list. FYI.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 12:37 AM

Some people believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and Little Green Men.

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 12:42 AM

True, Don. So ask your congressman/woman or senators what FEMA's money is spent on. Also ask about Rex 84. Let us know what you find out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 01:00 PM

Rex 84 was the clencher, wasn't it? It usually is. 22 years ago the program was made glaringly public, yet people still deny the higher ups think about concentration camps. But there's Jack Brooks being told to shut the hell up when he asks Ollie North about it. I'm kind of surprised no one's said that the video is a photoshop job. When you folks were shown pictures of WTC survivors standing in the "burning holes" you said "photoshop," until it was pointed out that FEMA and NIST published the photos in their reports. You don't believe written reportage, you don't believe photos, so now you have to figure out how Jack Brooks was made to look like he was pissed off at the thought of the U.S. constitution being suspended by the military. Could be stop-motion animation. Or maybe some of Peter Jackson's early computer animation. The lip synching seems a little off. North's head seems to fly back and up when he's hit with the truth...does that seem believable? Looks like doctored film to me. Never happened. Conspiracy.

By the way, have you checked on the "decomissioned" military bases in your area? Drive out to the one nearest you sometime. I know there are armed guards at the ones around here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Songster Bob
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 01:44 PM

"We didn't know", said the burgomeister ,"about the camp on the edge of town"
"It was Hitler and his crew that tore the German nation down."
"We saw the cattle cars, its true; maybe they carried a Jew or two"
"They woke us up as they rattled through, but what did you expect me to do?"

Chos: We didn't know at all, we didn't see a thing.
You can't hold us to blame, what could we do?
It was a terrible shame, but we can't bear the blame.
Oh, No, not us! We didn't know.

... From Tom Paxton's "We Didn't Know"

Whether the US government is or is not running the equivalent of concentration camps, it behoove the American citizen to PAY ATTENTION.

Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:03 PM

"By the way, have you checked on the "decomissioned" military bases in your area? Drive out to the one nearest you sometime. I know there are armed guards at the ones around here."

Not all of them have armed guards ... the ones that don't, they are turning these bases into big box stores, industrial parks or in the case of Presidio they are selling off the officers homes as expensive condos, buildings into art centres and such ... the decommisioned bases that do have armed guards is because they have enough stockpiled ordnance to blow up a city the size of Cleveland ... you certainly don't want the neighbourhood kids or crack addicts getting into those joints.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:10 PM

I can't fathom, Ebbie, what you and Guest are arguing about in regards to John Lennon. Seems to me you don't have anything to disagree about. Lennon was merely making an observation that at that particular time the Beatles were more popular with young people than Jesus was. That was undoubtedly true. You'd have to be really stupid to think it wasn't. That people chose to take it as Lennon saying, "the Beatles are better than Jesus" was an unthinking kneejerk response on their part. Lennon had nothing to apologize for. Those people had nothing to get upset about.

It was just one more example of a hysterical response to something, driven by news media, that wasn't worth getting upset about in the first place.

And as Guest suggests, it was because Lennon had the nerve to say something truthful without regard to the risk, and in the process to cause a presumed public offence against a sacred cow. It's always dangerous to offend sacred cows.

There are some sacred cows on Mudcat too, and God help those who offend them. I will not choose to name them at this moment, however. ;-) I'm not John Lennon, and I don't need the flak.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:23 PM

"There are some sacred cows on Mudcat too, and God help those who offend them."



You must be mistaken. Everyone knows that all Mudcatters are openminded and are always willing to consider that the other side has some valid point to make.

NOT


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:31 PM

John Lennon ?!?!?!

Jeeeeeezuz ..... how did I miss that one in this thread. Yeah that 'Jesus statement' was a real earth shattering event in the timeline of humanity. At that time in my life I was more concerned about the escalating war in Vietnam, the cultural revolution in China, and GM's lie and deceit about the Corvette.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:38 PM

Correction ... I meant the Corvair, not the Corvette.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 03:31 PM

Thank you LH for understanding what I was trying to get across in a somewhat clumsy fashion. Sacred cows exactly and as we know some are full of bull.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 03:35 PM

Fort Lawton, in the northwest section of Seattle, just north of Magnolia Bluff (overlooking Puget Sound), was turned over to the City of Seattle Department of Parks and Recreation some years back. It is now called Discovery Park. Picnic areas, sports fields, wooded areas to hike though, and the Daybreak Star (Native American) Cultural Center is also there. Nice recreation area. Nothing military left, no barbed wire. No armed guards. Lots of people go there, especially in the summer. Hiking trails. Beautiful, scenic area. CLICKY.

The Sand Point Naval Air Station in the northeast section of Seattle (on the shores of Lake Washington) was also decommissioned a few years back and it, too, was turned over to the Department of Parks and Recreation. It's now called Magnuson Park, named after a long-time Washington State Senator, the late Warren G. Magnuson (Dem.). Magnuson Park contains a number of buildings converted from military use, in which there are meeting rooms, classes of various kinds (art's, crafts, lectures, etc.), several converted hangars (the Seattle Public Library's annual "Friends of the Library" book sale is usually held in one of these), athletic areas (baseball field, soccer field, et al.), a sculpture garden, several picnic areas, boat ramps. . . .   No barbed wire anywhere. There's also a movie theater there. I have performed (singing folk songs, reading poetry) at Magnuson Park. They are currently having a Harry Potter festival there for kids, showing all three Harry Potter movies continuously. CLICKY. No armed guards there, either.

Following the WTO demonstration (the "Battle in Seattle") in 1999, some GUEST here on Mudcat started a couple of threads claiming that Magnuson Park was being used as a concentration camp. Ah, HAH! But not so. In what started out as a peaceful demonstration involving some 40,000 people, there were about 200 goons who tried to turn the demonstration into a riot and ran amok downtown, setting fires and smashing store windows. Others got involved, mostly kids being stupid. Since major property damage was being done and some people were being physically assaulted, the Seattle Police Department rounded up about 500 people. The King County jail couldn't hold them all, so they were bused out to Magnuson Park. The former Navy brig (eight cells—no longer there, by the way) was obviously inadequate, so the rioters were kept on the buses, booked, and released. The whole thing took about six hours altogether. Most of the people rounded up were teenagers who were released to their parents.

So much for Magnuson Park being a "concentration camp." It wasn't even adequate to hold 500 knuckle-draggers and teenagers. When I posted the real situation, said GUEST (who knew nothing about me other than that I describe the true situation) called me a liar and shill for the government. I am neither. I live here. He didn't. He had an ax to grind. I didn't. And don't.

Fort Lewis, near Tacoma, WA, south of Seattle, is an active military base. It is also the site of the Madigan Army Medical Center. Also in that area is the McChord Air Force Base, also active. Many flights depart for and return from Iraq, carrying troops and cargo. There is the Whidbey Island Naval Air Station on Whidbey Island, north of Seattle, in Puget Sound. Active. Also the Bangor Trident Submarine Base on Hood Canal, west of Seattle. Oh, yes. And the Bremerton Navy Yard, across Puget Sound from Seattle. Lots of historic naval ships in mothballs. Nothing much in the way of military bases, active or decommissioned, around here that could be used as a concentration camp. And I'm sorry, despite photographs I've seen of supposed concentrations camps, a school playground surrounded by a cyclone fence (no razor wire) obviously in a residential neighborhood just doesn't qualify.

Since governments, by their very nature, are open to corruption and are constantly trying to increase their power, it's up to us as citizens to make sure that nothing like that happens. GUEST seems to think that the storm troopers are already marching down the street to drag us all off, and others here also seem to think it's imminent. And nobody seems to be motivated enough to even try to suggest what anyone should do about it!   There seems to be a certain perverse satisfaction in just sitting there and wailing that "We are all doomed!" and taking pot-shots at those who are not willing to join in their melancholy funk.

Well, I'm not willing to simply lay down and whine till something like that happens (if, indeed, it ever does). That's why I am politically active.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 03:48 PM

"Well, I'm not willing to simply lay down and whine till something like that happens (if, indeed, it ever does). That's why I am politically active."

Great, Don. Would you please ask your congressman/woman and senators about Rex 84? It would make many folks sleep easier. See what your elected reps have to say and what they can find out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 04:16 PM

the Iraq war is now costing taxpayers almost $2 billion a week

Money that is boosting the money in AMERICAN Citizens pocketbooks. War is pumping money into the economy. War is kind. You will not find many illegal aliens on the payrolls of:

US STEEL
BOEING
HALIBURTON
FLOURE
GRUMMAN
NORTHROP
U.S. MILITARY FORCES and support services

Those dollars are reinvested into the pocketbooks of American Families, who pay taxes and spend their well earned money in America. As a "socialist" no-one expects you to have the faintest farthing of a concept about economics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 04:33 PM

Warfare is the ultimate in consumerism, that's for sure.

"I have these 25,000 nuclear warheads here, and I ain't gettin' no takers for doing something constructive with them. Like, uh, what's THAT all about?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 04:37 PM

REX 84 was a Readiness Exercise (REX) held in April 1984. As with all such exercises, it involved the most outlandish scenario that anyone could come up with in order to bring as many agencies and military units (active, reserve and Guard) into the game as possible. In this case it included civil unrest and the need to temporarily detain people. Another exercise a few years later, and I can't recall its name or number, involved the eruption of Mt. Rainier. The VA hospital where I worked at the time, at American Lake south of Tacoma, Washington, was peripherally involved in REX 84...we used it to test our emergency response system, if I remember correctly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 04:39 PM

Right, Peace. I will indeed contact them.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 04:43 PM

Really? Well, how do you explain the fact that my bills are always paid on time, my credit cards never run up any interest, and I run a capitalist small business that's in the green? (despite being, philosophically speaking, a socialist in my general nature)

What I would like to see is a society that doesn't even have money at all, and has no poverty, and has more worthy motivating factors for people to put their energies into. Such a society was depicted on the Star Trek show, where the only people who cared about money were the corrupt and greedy Ferengi.

However, I know that's not going to happen here. No chance whatsoever of it happening. We are going to continue to have money as the prime motivating factor in this society. Accordingly, I handle money competently and deal with it because I must, not because I particularly want to. And I deal with if efficiently. Socialists are just as capable of understanding economics as anyone else is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 04:47 PM

Thank you very much, Don.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 05:06 PM

Sure .... Warfare is the ultimate in consumerism, that's for sure. ... but let's keep thinking on a positive note here ... think of the benefits to our society that are a direct result due to WAR ... such as the advancement of emergency hospital services, development in medicine overall .... development in plastics, computing, all terrain vehicles, 4 x 4's ... Quick instant meals for the family on the go, are a direct result of k-rations ... for you hunting enthusiasts there
s the advancment on the scopes you use on your rifles, the camouflage you wear when went out bagging a few ducks ... WAR, yes war can make our lives easier.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 10:41 PM

Don Firth considers you a knuckle-dragger if you believe in freedom of speech and the right to assemble, or if you're against wrongful arrest:

Federal judge: Seattle police lacked cause in WTO arrests

By The Associated Press
01.01.04
SEATTLE — A federal judge has ruled that Seattle police were unfounded in their arrest of protesters during the World Trade Organization riots in late 1999.

The Dec. 29 decision by U.S. District Judge Marsha Pechman could leave the city vulnerable to a class-action lawsuit.

Pechman ruled that police had no probable cause when they arrested 157 protesters in downtown Seattle during the WTO conference held in December 1999.

The city maintained protesters were arrested for pedestrian interference only after they failed to disperse. Attorneys for the city could not be reached by The Seattle Times for comment for this report.

Protesters' lawyers argued that the arrests violated their clients' First and Fourth Amendment rights, guaranteeing free speech and protection from unreasonable searches and seizures.

Victoria Ni, an attorney with Trial Lawyers for Public Justice, said protesters and onlookers were trapped, herded and arrested by the Seattle Police Department outside of an area that had been established as a no-protest zone during the convention.

Protesters said they were forced down the street and arrested by police, who made no effort to separate the group from innocent bystanders, court documents said.

Plaintiffs' lawyers also contend all those arrested were booked into a holding center at Naval Station Puget Sound at Sand Point using the same photocopied arrest warrant and containing inaccurate information.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=12408

(That Sand Point mention must be a typo.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 10:52 PM

Chongo is a knuckle-dragger, and he's proud of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 10:54 PM

Chongo's a knuckle head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 01:01 AM

Well, yes, some would say that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 01:02 AM

Not to his face--which incidentally is almost indistinguishable from his arse, but hey, ya know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 01:47 PM

"Don Firth considers you a knuckle-dragger if you believe in freedom of speech and the right to assemble, or if you're against wrongful arrest."

GUEST, you are a liar. You are deliberately trying to misrepresent what I said.

First, I repeat, for your enlightenment and edification, what I actually did say:
In what started out as a peaceful demonstration involving some 40,000 people, there were about 200 goons who tried to turn the demonstration into a riot and ran amok downtown, setting fires and smashing store windows. Others got involved, mostly kids being stupid. Since major property damage was being done and some people were being physically assaulted, the Seattle Police Department rounded up about 500 people. The King County jail couldn't hold them all, so they were bused out to Magnuson Park. The former Navy brig (eight cells—no longer there, by the way) was obviously inadequate, so the rioters were kept on the buses, booked, and released. The whole thing took about six hours altogether. Most of the people rounded up were teenagers who were released to their parents.

So much for Magnuson Park being a "concentration camp." It wasn't even adequate to hold 500 knuckle-draggers and teenagers.
The vast majority of the peaceful marchers and demonstrators—some 40,000 people—left when the self-styled "anarchists" started their rampage, smashing store windows and setting fires in Dumpsters and pushing them up against buildings in hopes that the buildings would catch fire. The peaceful demonstrators, mostly union members, had made their point, and they wisely got out of there when the riots started. There were a number of people who were not involved in the protest who just hung around to rubberneck. When the Seattle Police ordered the crowd to disperse, the rioters, of course, did not. Nor did a lot of people who were there to rubberneck. And it was these latter who got rounded up along with the rioters since many of them were among the rioters and were indistinguishable from them.

In a highly questionable case, U.S. District Judge Marsha Pechman ruled that these folks were arrested without probable cause. The city maintained that if they were at the scene of the rioting at all after being ordered to disperse, there was indeed probable cause to arrest them. Courts of law do not always make correct decisions!

When and where these 157 people were arrested, there was not a peaceful protest in progress. It was a riot.

I have participated in peace marches, demonstrations, and protests. To try to claim that I am in any way opposed to freedom of speech or the right to assemble is a scurrilous lie.

It's obvious that GUEST is not interested in the truth, he just wants to spread his fear and hatred, and wind people up. Look at the number of threads he's started, all about the same kinds of things—taking what might be construed as a few elements of truth and building them into elaborate conspiracy theories. He gets his jollies that way.

And considering that, after having been challenged numerous times to offer suggestions or solutions to the problems he raises, all he comes up with is "Buy guns and ammo!" This person is not interested in freedom of speech or peaceful protest. He is a bomb-thrower. Only he doesn't have the guts to throw his own bombs. He wants us to do it for him.

Don Firth

P. S.   Okay, GUEST, here's a conspiracy theory for you to play with:   There are those who believe that the approximately 200 goons who turned the peaceful demonstration into a riot were sent there by the backers of the WTO to turn the peaceful protest into a riot in order to discredit the entire demonstration.

Along with a number of others who were witnesses to the "Battle in Seattle" up close, I tend to believe that this idea is not just a "theory." It gave the WTO organizers an excuse to severely restrict any future demonstrations at WTO conferences.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 02:35 PM

I think, Don, that there is a great likelihood that the government itself arranged for some agents-provocateurs to instigate that riot and encourage various young and foolish people to join them in destroying property. It would have been easy to do, it would have required only a handful of such agents, and it is a tactic that has long been used by the government to discredit any peaceful protest movements and tar all protestors with the same brush. The government wishes the general public to see protestors as dangerous anarchists. How easily that is done when a few foolish people can be manipulated into acting out the part.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 02:49 PM

Or, as you say, the WTO hired the goons. Equally likely, if not more so. It's power politics out there, and power politics knows no scruples and has no mercy.

One thing the $ySStem hates above all else is mass protest that is done in a totally peaceful manner...because it makes the $ySStem look bad to beat up totally peaceful people! Look what Gandhi did with nonviolent action. Guess why he was finally killed? Guess why they killed Martin Luther King? They'd much rather that protestors were violent and walked around brandishing guns and issuing threats, like the Black Panthers, because you can easily justify killing people who walk around brandishing guns and issuing threats...but what do you do about totally nonviolent people?

Well...you arrange some way of making them look violent, dirty, drug-using, or dangerous, that's how. It can be done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 08:39 PM

And this is why I object to GUEST's "solution" to the problems he raises. "Buy guns and ammo!" What would constitute a better excuse for the government to round up peace marchers, demonstrators, and protesters and herd them into detention camps than for some of the demostrators to show up armed? And if they were to start using their guns, that would cllnch it.

There is ample reason to question GUEST's motives.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 09:20 PM

Yes, I understand your point perfectly. Seems to me the best way to fight back is to spread information to as many people as possible...in other words, the do the same thing the government does. That's why it's called "Infowars".


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 09:44 PM

Hmm, the system ate my post.

So much for Magnuson Park being a "concentration camp." It wasn't even adequate to hold 500 knuckle-draggers and teenagers.

Firth puts the people arrested in Seattle into 2 groups--knuckle-draggers and teenagers. Then this group of pedestrians wins the lawsuit. So which are they, knuckle-draggers or teens? The article gives the judge's name, so chastise her for finding in favor of the knucks and teens.

And yes, Little Hawk, I imagine those were globalist provocateurs. The WTO thing was too good to pass up. Throw a few trashcans then lock up a bunch of people so America gets the message.

As far as guns, buy lots. Buy them, lock them up, then wait until they're needed. Your neighbors aren't buying guns as long as they're buying the line of BS being peddled by the Democrats and Republicans. So when the next disturbance happens, and your neighbors wish they had guns to defend their homes, hand out the firearms. Form your temporary militia to protect your neighborhood, then when the crisis is over, lock the guns away again. You can't count on the government to protect you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:06 PM

You keep on trying to misrepresent what I said, GUEST. Rather than repeat it yet again, I invite people who may be in doubt to read it for themselves. That will amply demonstrate how you can't seem to grasp even the simple things--like plain English. Either that, or you are as I say you are:   a deliberate liar.

GUEST, there is a group in northern Idaho and another in eastern Oregon where you would fit right in. Lots of guns, they dress in fatigues and play war games. They can't all agree on which conspiracy theory to believe, but whichever one it is, they're all set to rush right in and murder anything that moves.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:50 PM

You're the one who called the poor unfortunates arrested in Seattle "knuckle-draggers and teenagers," not me. So are you also saying only knuckle-draggers and teenagers live in Seattle? Seems a bit harsh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:54 PM

Seattle was the capital city of the grunge movement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: frogprince
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:01 PM

Two possibilities here: either "guest" is so addled there is no point in trying to communicate with him, or he has no real interest in anything except trolling and raising what his twisted little mind thinks is an amusing stink. I would bet on the latter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:11 PM

But Firth classified the people arrested in Seattle as "knuckle-draggers and teenagers." The article regarding the lawsuit mentions neither. If I'm confused, it's because I'm being fed conflicting information. I wonder why Firth has such low regard for the residents of his fair city?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:11 AM

THat's all you've got? You, sir, are an ass.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:14 AM

The only difference between an empty army camp surrounded by barbed wire and patrolled by armed guards and a concentration camp is occupants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:19 AM

I believe that Ashcroft was proposing 'detention camps' in 2002. Anyone know what all happened with that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 10:01 AM

What happened Peace was that John Ashcroft became more involved in the lucrative business of consulting ... with his newly formed Ashcroft Group .... making lotsa $$$ in developing espionage computing applications is more enticing than constructing detention camps ... for the time being at least.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:15 PM

Out of 40,000 peaceful demonstrators, there were a couple hundred knuckle-draggers who were there for the purpose of committing mayhem, or watching others commit mayhem and cheer them on. Many of those spectators were teenagers (although some were participating in the window-smashing). The newspaper reports said that a large percentage of the 500-odd who were arrested were teenagers, and they were not charged with anything, but their parents had to come and pick them up.

So—knuckle-draggers and teenagers. I stand by that.

For your enlightenment and edification, an excerpt from an article on the psychology of conspiracy theories:
The term "conspiracy theory" is used by mainstream scholars and in popular culture to identify a type of folklore similar to an urban legend, especially an explanatory narrative which is constructed with methodological flaws. It involves a particular narrative form of scapegoating that frames demonized enemies as part of a vast, insidious plot against the common good, while it valorizes the scapegoater as a hero for sounding the alarm.[

Psychologists believe that the search for meaningfulness features largely in conspiracism and the development of conspiracy theories. That desire alone may be powerful enough to lead to the initial formulation of the idea. Once cognized, confirmation bias and avoidance of cognitive dissonance may reinforce the belief. In a context where a conspiracy theory has become popular within a social group, communal reinforcement may equally play a part.

Evolutionary psychology may also play a significant role. Paranoid tendencies are associated with an animal's ability to recognize danger. Higher animals attempt to construct mental models of the thought processes of both rivals and predators in order to read their hidden intentions and to predict their future behavior. Such an ability is extremely valuable in sensing and avoiding danger in an animal community. If this danger-sensing ability should begin making false predictions, or be triggered by benign evidence, or otherwise become pathological, the result is paranoid delusions.
I have music to make, a concert to prepare for, a possible series of CDs to program, and a book to finish writing, and here I am wasting a great deal of my valuable time and effort on the mental vapors of someone I don't even know, who doesn't care to identify himself, and is spouting paranoid blather. What the hell is the matter with me?

New Years' Resolution:   Stop wasting time arguing with nameless, knuckle-dragging trolls.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:28 PM

Ya hey, Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:31 PM

The camps were built, Peace. Them and more. Camps everywhere. I suggest you go to the site below and watch the short video "Putting 9-11 in Historical Context." About 17 minutes in they show a typical concentration camp in the U.S.

http://www.911truthbristol.com/videos/films.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:05 PM

Heh! What is wrong with you, Don, is exactly the same thing that's wrong with all of us who compulsively post here. Ever seen how reluctant a dog is to let go of a dry, worthless old bone? Specially when someone else is tugging on the other end of it?

None of us are any different.

Your New Year's Resolution is a good one, and I hope you manage to hold to it. Think of the time you'll save. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:30 PM

Yea, verily!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:51 PM

http://www.unabombers.com/z03PrideMichelle.htm

Play with this a Little while Hawk - it will help keep you out of trouble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 01:13 PM

This is your brain

This is your brain on Mudcat


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 03:51 PM

Saw the dog fighting with his own foot, heric! LOL! It does look like the Mudcat scene allright.

What makes you think I'm in any trouble, Guest? Like is very quiet here, and I don't need that site to play with cos I'm busy with other stuff right now. You read it for me instead, and PM me later with all the great details.

The question is, will Don find the strength of character to avoid getting dragged back in here one more time? We'll see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 04:23 PM

Oh, I'll be around, Little Hawk. It isn't a matter os strength of character. It's just that I occasionally have to remind myself that arguing with the dead is pretty much a waste of time.

I have some heavy-duty, industrial-strength music projects on the agenda, and I'm determined to finish my book in 2007, so I have to reapply my schnozzola to the grindstone.

But I'll be looking in from time to time to see if any progress is being made. Kinda like observing plate techtonics.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 10:26 PM

Way to go. But look at heric's link! (the one with the dog) It's great.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: heric
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 01:18 PM

(I'm glad you liked that LH. It doesn't seem to get old for me, either. It wasn't meant for this thread more or less than any other, of course. Inspired by your dog bone comment, I couldn't resist.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 05:45 PM

This pretty well proves the point. 444 Days


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:42 PM

even though that link is messed up, I'd advise not trying to sort it out...Opera gave me a VERY strange warning I'd never seen before ...that the name does not match the certificate, and that someone might "be trying to eavesdrop on you".


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST,Rex-84
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:54 PM

Top 25 Censored Stories of 2007

http://www.projectcensored.org/censored_2007/index.htm

#14 Homeland Security Contracts KBR to Build Detention Centers in the US

Halliburton's subsidiary KBR (formerly Kellogg, Brown and Root) announced on January 24, 2006 that it had been awarded a $385 million contingency contract by the Department of Homeland Security to build detention camps in the United States.

According to a press release posted on the Halliburton website, "The contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to augment existing Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) Detention and Removal Operations (DRO) Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs. The contingency support contract provides for planning and, if required, initiation of specific engineering, construction and logistics support tasks to establish, operate and maintain one or more expansion facilities."

What little coverage the announcement received focused on concerns about Halliburton's reputation for overcharging U.S. taxpayers for substandard services.

Less attention was focused on the phrase "rapid development of new programs" or what type of programs might require a major expansion of detention centers, capable of holding 5,000 people each. Jamie Zuieback, spokeswoman for ICE, declined to elaborate on what these "new programs" might be.

Only a few independent journalists, such as Peter Dale Scott, Maureen Farrell, and Nat Parry have explored what the Bush administration might actually have in mind.

Scott speculates that the "detention centers could be used to detain American citizens if the Bush administration were to declare martial law." He recalled that during the Reagan administration, National Security Council aide Oliver North organized the Rex-84 "readiness exercise," which contemplated the Federal Emergency Management Agency rounding up and detaining 400,000 "refugees" in the event of "uncontrolled population movements" over the Mexican border into the U.S.

North's exercise, which reportedly contemplated possible suspension of the Constitution, led to a line of questioning during the Iran-Contra Hearings concerning the idea that plans for expanded internment and detention facilities would not be confined to "refugees" alone.

It is relevant, says Scott, that in 2002 Attorney General John Ashcroft announced his desire to see camps for U.S. citizens deemed to be "enemy combatants." On February 17, 2006, in a speech to the Council on Foreign Relations, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld spoke of the harm being done to the country's security, not just by the enemy, but also by what he called "news informers" who needed to be combated in "a contest of wills."

Since September 11 the Bush administration has implemented a number of interrelated programs that were planned in the 1980s under President Reagan. Continuity of Government (COG) proposals—a classified plan for keeping a secret "government-within-the-government" running during and after a nuclear disaster—included vastly expanded detention capabilities, warrantless eavesdropping, and preparations for greater use of martial law.

Scott points out that, while Oliver North represented a minority element in the Reagan administration, which soon distanced itself from both the man and his proposals, the minority associated with COG planning, which included Cheney and Rumsfeld, appear to be in control of the U.S. government today.

Farrell speculates that, because another terror attack is all but certain, it seems far more likely that the detention centers would be used for post-September 11-type detentions of rounded-up immigrants rather than for a sudden deluge of immigrants flooding across the border.

Vietnam-era whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg ventures, "Almost certainly this is preparation for a roundup after the next September 11 for Mid-Easterners, Muslims and possibly dissenters. They've already done this on a smaller scale, with the 'special registration' detentions of immigrant men from Muslim countries, and with Guantánamo."

Parry notes that The Washington Post reported on February 15, 2006 that the National Counterterrorism Center's (NCTC) central repository holds the names of 325,000 terrorist suspects, a fourfold increase since fall of 2003.
Asked whether the names in the repository were collected through the NSA's domestic surveillance program, an NCTC official told the Post, "Our database includes names of known and suspected international terrorists provided by all intelligence community organizations, including NSA."

As the administration scoops up more and more names, members of Congress have questioned the elasticity of Bush's definitions for words like terrorist "affiliates," used to justify wiretapping Americans allegedly in contact with such people or entities.

A Defense Department document, entitled the "Strategy for Homeland Defense and Civil Support," has set out a military strategy against terrorism that envisions an "active, layered defense" both inside and outside U.S. territory. In the document, the Pentagon pledges to "transform U.S. military forces to execute homeland defense missions in the . . . U.S. homeland." The strategy calls for increased military reconnaissance and surveillance to "defeat potential challengers before they threaten the United States." The plan "maximizes threat awareness and seizes the initiative from those who would harm us."

But there are concerns, warns Parry, over how the Pentagon judges "threats" and who falls under the category of "those who would harm us." A Pentagon official said the Counterintelligence Field Activity's TALON program has amassed files on antiwar protesters.

In the view of some civil libertarians, a form of martial law already exists in the U.S. and has been in place since shortly after the September 11 attacks when Bush issued Military Order Number One, which empowered him to detain any noncitizen as an international terrorist or enemy combatant. Today that order extends to U.S. citizens as well.

Farrell ends her article with the conclusion that while much speculation has been generated by KBR's contract to build huge detention centers within the U.S., "The truth is, we won't know the real purpose of these centers unless 'contingency plans are needed.' And by then, it will be too late."

UPDATE BY PETER DALE SCOTT
The contract of the Halliburton subsidiary KBR to build immigrant detention facilities is part of a longer-term Homeland Security plan titled ENDGAME, which sets as its goal the removal of "all removable aliens" and "potential terrorists." In the 1980s Richard Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld discussed similar emergency detention powers as part of a super-secret program of planning for what was euphemistically called "Continuity of Government" (COG) in the event of a nuclear disaster. At the time, Cheney was a Wyoming congressman, while Rumsfeld, who had been defense secretary under President Ford, was a businessman and CEO of the drug company G.D. Searle.

These men planned for suspension of the Constitution, not just after nuclear attack, but for any "national security emergency," which they defined in Executive Order 12656 of 1988 as: "Any occurrence, including natural disaster, military attack, technological or other emergency, that seriously degrades or seriously threatens the national security of the United States." Clearly September 11 would meet this definition, and did, for COG was instituted on that day. As the Washington Post later explained, the order "dispatched a shadow government of about 100 senior civilian managers to live and work secretly outside Washington, activating for the first time long-standing plans."

What these managers in this shadow government worked on has never been reported. But it is significant that the group that prepared ENDGAME was, as the Homeland Security document puts it, "chartered in September 2001." For ENDGAME's goal of a capacious detention capability is remarkably similar to Oliver North's controversial Rex-84 "readiness exercise" for COG in 1984. This called for the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) to round up and detain 400,000 imaginary "refugees," in the context of "uncontrolled population movements" over the Mexican border into the United States.

UPDATE BY MAUREEN FARRELL
When the story about Kellogg, Brown and Root's contract for emergency detention centers broke, immigration was not the hot button issue it is today. Given this, the language in Halliburton's press release, stating that the centers would be built in the event of an "emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S.," raised eyebrows, especially among those familiar with Rex-84 and other Reagan-era initiatives. FEMA's former plans 'for the detention of at least 21 million American Negroes in assembly centers or relocation camps' added to the distrust, and the second stated reason for the KBR contract, "to support the rapid development of new programs," sent imaginations reeling.

While few in the mainstream media made the connection between KBR's contract and previous programs, Fox News eventually addressed this issue, pooh-poohing concerns as the province of "conspiracy theories" and "unfounded" fears. My article attempted to sift through the speculation, focusing on verifiable information found in declassified and leaked documents which proved that, in addition to drawing up contingency plans for martial law, the government has conducted military readiness exercises designed to round up and detain both illegal aliens and U.S. citizens.
How concerned should Americans be? Recent reports are conflicting and confusing:

In May, 2006, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) began "Operation Return to Sender," which involved catching illegal immigrants and deporting them. In June, however, President Bush vowed that there would soon be "new infrastructures" including detention centers designed to put an end to such "catch and release" practices.
Though Bush said he was "working with Congress to increase the number of detention facilities along our borders," Rep. Bennie Thompson, ranking member of the House Homeland Security Committee, said he first learned about the KBR contract through newspaper reports.
Fox News recently quoted Pepperdine University professor Doug Kmiec, who deemed detention camp concerns "more paranoia than reality" and added that KBR's contract is most likely "something related to (Hurricane) Katrina" or "a bird flu outbreak that could spur a mass quarantine of Americans." The president's stated desire for the U.S. military to take a more active role during natural disasters and to enforce quarantines in the event of a bird flu outbreak, however, have been roundly denounced.
Concern over an all-powerful federal government is not paranoia, but active citizenship. As Thomas Jefferson explained, "even under the best forms of government, those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny." From John Adams's Alien and Sedition Acts to FDR's internment of Japanese Americans, the land of the free has held many contradictions and ironies. Interestingly enough, Halliburton was at the center of another historical controversy, when Lyndon Johnson's ties to a little-known company named Kellogg, Brown and Root caused a congressional commotion—particularly after the Halliburton subsidiary won enough wartime contracts to become one of the first protested symbols of the military-industrial complex. Back then they were known as the "Vietnam builders." The question, of course, is what they'll be known as next.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:58 PM

I got "This page cannot be displayed" I did a "View Source" and came up with the URL for a William Shatner fan site.

I'm not sure what point that's supposed to prove.

Did The Beast from The Book of Revelation (666) undergo a sex change or something? And what would William Shatner's fans know about that?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST,Jazebeck
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 11:24 PM

Shatner is a vitally important person who is at the center of pretty well everything that really matters in the USA and in much of the world. His goofy showbiz personality is only there to camouflage his real activities. He is huge. I'm not kidding. Absolutely huge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:22 PM

http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=11291&pst=725484

At the bottom of the page are 3 aerial views, one of Tyler, Texas, one of Beech Grove, Indiana. FEMA camps, according to the captions. Credible because they're on rail lines. The bottom photo is of Gundersen Steel. Do a search of that and you'll see they make rail cars, and there are lots of stories about them making JPATS with shackles, ready to transport people.

So America's about to be merged with Mexico and Canada. The borders should have been closed on 9/12/2001 if we were "under attack," but they weren't, and now there are upwards of 30 million illegals in the U.S. And Bush has said he'll sign an amnesty if congress passes it, but the Republicans have shot down Democratic legislation on this for the past 8 years. But now the Dems will pass the bill, Bush will sign it, and all "illegals" will become "legal."

So, who are these camps for? Millions of beds just waiting, for what?

Video of the Beech Grove camp is various places on the internet, like here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=277826260716604258


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:25 PM

I hope people don't wake up one day saying, "Why didn't someone tell me?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST,Nervous? Me? Nervous? Who says I'm nervous?
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:48 PM

The narrator uses a lot of pure supposition as the camera pans around, along with loaded imagery. Gas pipes (she says) located in areas that (she says) have never been heated before. Obviously, the idea is to conjure up fears of the WW2 death camps in Germany. Any old factory or defense plant that is no longer in use will look a lot like that. Security cameras, turnstiles, high fences with barbed wire at the top. It proves nothing except that some people have vivid imaginations. The fly-over by the "black helicopter" is the cherry on top.

If you want something that will really scare your socks off, try this. Just because it starts out looking like a car commercial, don't let that fool you. You'll get there soon enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:56 PM

However, that same sort of thing was said in Germany in the 1930s, Chile in the early 1970s and Argentina in the late 1970s. The fact that one thing is scary doesn't make something else less scary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:22 PM

There are other versions of that video on the web. One is twice as long. Tomorrow there should be photos of the FEMA concentration camp in Taylor, Texas online. A crew filmed a lot out there yesterday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 01:49 PM

http://jonesreport.com/

19 minute googlevideo at the top of the page. Is this a concentration camp? Film from a couple of days ago.

The Democrats are about to legalize all illegals, and Bush has said he'd sign the bill. The bill will make all future people who come to the U.S. "legal," no matter how they got here. There are a few foreigners in these camps around the U.S. right now, but there will soon BE no illegal immigrants, by law, yet they're erecting these things as fast as they can.

So who are they for?

They're for American citizens. The American dollar is being devalued at a record rate, and soon Americans will be like the Germans in pre-war Germany, trying to trade a wheelbarrow full of dollars for a loaf of bread. THAT'S when the rioting will start, and THAT'S what the camps are for. Rioters. And dissenters. The camps are to be used for purges in America. Being built in plain view.

The one in Taylor is small, but it's a hundred feet from a rail line, so it looks like it'll be used as a processing center. The really big prison labor camps will be in the Northwest U.S., Alaska and Canada, where the mining and timber industries will need slave labor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 02:55 PM

"The really big prison labor camps will be in the Northwest U.S., Alaska and Canada, where the mining and timber industries will need slave labor." Guest

Why in Alaska?
In Alaska, utility costs would be extremely high- surely these detention camps would be placed where the costs of running them would be lower.

Why in Canada?
Are you trying to say that this is a worldwide phenomenon? Last I looked, Canada was not part of the US.

If this is the inescapable, inexorable trend of the future, why not remove yourself from it now? If you wait too long, it may be too late.

Human beings are odd.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 03:28 PM

I've checked a lot of web sites that talk about FEMA concentration camps. There is a lot of stuff out there. But checking the list of "known concentrations camps," for Washington State they list two locations with which I am intimately familiar:

"Sea-Tac" or the Seattle Tacoma International Airport, which they list as a "relocation center." Well—what the hell else would you consider an international airport to be but a "relocation center?" They "relocate" thousands of people every day. I have been "relocated" at least a dozen times through the Seattle-Tacoma airport, both going and coming.

The Sand Point Naval Air Station, which, they claim, was a detention camp for protesters during the WTO riots in Seattle in 1999. In my lengthy post on 28 Dec 06 - 03:35 PM, I explain what this particular "concentration camp" actually is. A city park.

As far as the Seattle area is concerned, they missed the Woodland Park Zoo. My God, there are large fenced-in areas, moats, and even cages there!!!   

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 09:51 PM

Sea-Tac would be hangars. They have them here. Old airport hangars with shackle rings in the concrete floors. Had them in place prior to Y2K. That was the event used to justify the building and conversion of a lot of these centers, and some of them are at airports. Bergstrom AFB (local) closed around that time, and it now has a dual purpose--sound stages (the Spy Kids movies were shot there), and FEMA buildings, at least one of which has the bedspace in a hangar. I remember the local news actually showed the insides of the hangars before New Years eve, 1999. Reporters were let into a hangar and they broadcast video of the shackle rings, to let the public know everything would be done to take care of rioters if the computers all failed. I'll look for that film someday...bound to have been uploaded to the web by now.

As far as Alaska being impractical, Siberia wasn't too out of the way for the Soviet political prisoners, was it? And who says they'll get the luxury of heat? Alaska's where the timber is, so if you have a divergent political outlook, you'll end up working in the logging industry. State politicians in Oregon already tried to pass life imprisonment in logging camps for "terrorist" acts like demonstrating:

(b) When a person is convicted of terrorism under this section, the court shall order that the person be confined for a minimum of 25 years without possibility of parole, release to post-prison supervision, release on work release or any form of temporary leave or employment at a forest or work camp....

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news_updates/na625.htm

Are you trying to say that this is a worldwide phenomenon? Last I looked, Canada was not part of the US.

Then look again. Waco, Texas, 2005, leaders of Canada, Mexico and the U.S. began the merging of the 3 countries:

On June 21, viewers of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight heard the alarming introduction to a segment of the program devoted to the future of the United States of America. "The Bush administration's open-borders policy and its decision to ignore the enforcement of this country's immigration laws is part of a broader agenda," Dobbs intoned. "President Bush signed a formal agreement that will end the United States as we know it, and he took the step without approval from either the U.S. Congress or the people of the United States."

Here's a link to the video clip:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/030706loudobbs.htm

There's lots of information on the web if you search "North American Union," "Security and Prosperity Partnership," "NAFTA superhighway," etc.

Europe was flooded with people of different cultures before they were duped into the European Union. The same is happening here. Only, this scenario has the potential to get pretty bloody. That's why the U.S. govt has built so many concentration camps. In England I think they're called "rest and relocation centres." lol


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 10:04 PM

So ANY sizable building or compound (area enclosed by a fence) could be used as a concentration camp? Of course! But the fact that there are a lot of sizable buildings and fenced areas around doesn't, ipso facto, mean that's proof that they are intended to be used as concentration camps.

You're going to have to do a whole lot better than that, GUEST.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 10:31 PM

By the way, the hangars and maintenance facilities at Sea-Tac are currently being used for their intended purposes: sheltering and servicing aircraft. They do that at airports.

Sea-Tac is a busy, active airport, one of the major U. S. jumping-off points for commercial airliners for Asia and other parts of the world. My sister's husband was a pilot (recently retired) for Northwest Airlines. He flew in and out of Sea-Tac all the time.

I've been all over that place. "Shackle-rings?" Not inside the hangars. There ARE what those with vivid imaginations might consider "shackle-rings" in some outside parking areas. They're for the purpose of tying down small private planes in case of wind, which we get a lot of around here, especially this time of year.

Now--how about the Woodland Park Zoo?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 10:44 PM

Guest, Robert Pastor's ideas don't have a snowball's chance in the tropics. He is considered "extreme left and almost anti-American". When his views become mainstream even youthful you will be long gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 11:21 PM

Hey Don...nobody's even mentioned McNeil Island yet! Right across from Ft. Lewis...they can use them black heelocopters to take secret prisoners out there and never even cross civilian territory. And the VA is also right there - just the place for experimentation!


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 11:31 PM

However, one must wonder if Japanese-Americans and Japanese born in the USA spoke this way in the 1940s. (Or Canada for that matter.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 11:51 PM

Well, my grandfather was in Prague, Czechoslovakia in the late 30's, and he was dead sure nothing drastic was going to happen there (with regard to the Nazis). Sometimes you're right about that sort of thing, sometimes you're not.

If you turn out to be right and nothing happens, you can grin and say "I told you so". If not...well, too bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 01:11 AM

You guys WANT this sort of thing to be true, don't you? Just so you can gloat that you're right. Even if they're hauling you off, too.

That must be a very satisfying thought.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 01:44 AM

It's just a matter of informing. The mainstream media is owned by the government. It reports government propaganda. No government would ever admit to something like this.

Fortunately we have the internet, but politicians are trying to kill it. While it lasts, though, the news is out there. I posted about a concentration camp in Taylor, Texas. Who on this forum outside that area would know about that if not for the internet?

Connect the dots. Look at what can be substantiated as a "camp." Look at the legislation already codified into law regarding who the enemy is (YOU are if the govt says so). Look at Gitmo and the outsourcing of torture by the CIA to middle eastern and eastern European countries. Look at the open borders while television tells you how our officials are conducting "round-ups." Home invasions by ski-masked cops, nullification of the Bill of Rights by congress. No one but the enemies of this country want this to be true. Bullets, ballots or words, and ballots aren't working. Let's hope words do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 01:29 PM

"You guys WANT this sort of thing to be true, don't you?"

No, Don. Not particularly. ;-) Here is what I want:

1. A peaceful life, good health, a reasonable income, and something to believe in.

2. A free and honest flow of information to the public about matters of importance.

3. To be able to talk about something I find interesting without being dismissed offhand as a total nutbar just because I see it differently than someone else does... (meaning subjects such as: UFOs, life after death, reincarnation, 911 plot topics, the existence of God, and the subject of this thread)

Is that too much to hope for? ;-) Well, apparently it is. Specially on the Internet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 01:51 PM

Yeah, Little Hawk, that would be nice. To be able to pursue those goals and use the internet for enlightenment. Unfortunately the powers that be have gone into their endgame, and now it's time to kill us. So unnecessary, too. 20 or so banking families control the world and have decided we're redundant, so we have to go. They've patiently bought up governments, corporations, stock exchanges, real estate, people, police forces, militaries, and now they're going to put their investments to work for them. We will exterminated, then the exterminators will be exterminated. I just wish the exterminators would wake up to the system they're serving. It's the system that will kill their families too.

I've been bogged down in the 9/11 stuff the past 5 years, and all the stuff leading up to it and flowing out of it, but those other topics are interesting. Haven't had much time to consider them though. Have you started threads on them? A while back I read a piece by some guy who said we're reincarnated in groups. Like in a family group, you may be the mother or father this time around, and next time around you'll be the child in a group with the same kind of dynamics. Sound familiar? He had a name for it but I don't recall and wouldn't know how to search.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 02:05 PM

LH, it's not really that this is being dismissed out of hand. However, ANON.GUEST continues to present items as fact that various people here know are untrue. We are then told that what we know is in error, or our statements of fact are dismissed out of hand. We are then basically left with a choice between two options: either the general statement there are facilities being prepared in the US (and Canada) that are intended to be used as concentration camps is true although the specifics provided are not; or this guy is, in your words, a total nutbar. Please feel free to make your own choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 02:36 PM

I am deeply concerned about the erosion of the Bill of Rights and other areas of the Constitution that has occurred under the Bush administration. And I don't need be reminded of what led up to Nazi Germany and its echoes in some of the ominous trends in this country right now. In fact, in many threads I have warned of this—and pointed out that the current system in the United States is less and less of a democratic republic and is oozing toward a fascist state. I have pointed out Mussolini's statement several times:   "Fascism should more properly be called 'corporatism,' since it is the merger of state and corporate power." Anyone who hasn't noticed that this is pretty much the direction this country has taken recently just hasn't been paying attention.

And you know what? People gave me grief for overstating the case.

As far as GUEST's pointing out potential concentration camps is concerned, he's a Johnnie-come-lately to this idea. There are thousands of places all over the country that could be used as concentration camps. There are decommissioned military camps complete with barbed wire and barracks, all over the country. Should the government decide to round people up and herd them into concentration camps, there is no need for them to use places like closed schools or factories, city parks, or active, busy commercial facilities such as the Seattle-Tacoma International airport (even if you could chain someone to the rings they use for tying down private planes in parking areas).

Is what GUEST warns of possible? Oh, yes! But is it any kind of imminent danger? Bloody unlikely! There are more important things out there that we should be concerned with, and this effort at fear-mongering that GUEST is engaged in merely distracts from the real issues. Buying a bunch of ammunition, loading up your deer rifle, and hiding it under your bed may make you feel more secure and help you stave off your nightmares—but you're not doing much of value in the real world.

It may be limping a bit, but the political system in this country still works. Provided you get out and work it!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 02:54 PM

Don Firth, thanks for saying it much better than I can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 03:18 PM

I used to discuss stuff like reincarnation and UFOs a lot here, Guest, but I got sick of fighting with various other people about it when it didn't meet their preconceived ideas about reality, so I hardly bother to anymore.

Yeah, I think we probably tend to reincarnate in "groups", as you put it...meaning we repeatedly seek close involvement with certain key individuals, and very often through close family relationships. And the family roles can be reversed and switched around, so you get a chance to try things from the other angle, and find out what your counterparts were having to deal with. Yes, indeed. It seems likely to me.

But it's a big subject.

It's generally more pleasant talking about things to people in person than it is on the Net, because for one thing you can limit the discussion sensibly to yourself and one or two other people without complete strangers barging in suddenly from God knows where and telling you what an idiot they think you are... ;-)

On the other hand, talking on a computer is very convenient too, cos you don't even have to get out of your chair to do it... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 04:29 PM

Well, heck, Little Hawk, I'm up for serious discussions of UFOs and reincarnation any old time. Just don't make the mistake of assuming you know what my thoughts are on those matters before I state them.

There's a lot of that going around.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 05:53 PM

No, well, I didn't mean to imply anything like that about you, Don. Just musing about internet conversations in a general sense. It's often a case of "too many cooks spoil the soup" is what I mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 06:35 PM

Right. With just about any subject that there is no general agreement on, for every person who has actually thought some about it, there are a dozen others who insist on jumping into the pond and knee-jerking like crazy. Tends to muddy the water a bit.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 06:43 PM

Provided you get out and work it!

True Don ... but the problem with the apathetic society we have become is getting people to "get out and work it".

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: fumblefingers
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 08:11 PM

Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:22 PM

There are other versions of that video on the web. One is twice as long. Tomorrow there should be photos of the FEMA concentration camp in Taylor, Texas online. A crew filmed a lot out there yesterday.

Please provide GPS coordinates of this "FEMA concentration camp" and I'll drive down to Taylor this weekend and check out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 08:12 PM

Apathy is an individual thing, number 6. Harken to the following parable:

Some months ago, I heard someone being interviewed on my local NPR affiliate. He was African-American. He described attending a meeting in which a number of African-Americans were bemoaning the fact that what was needed these days was another leader like Martin Luther King. This "Oh, woe is me, who will lead us?" business went on for a bit, and things really looked glum.

Then a teen-aged girl stood up and leveled a blast of oratory on them, chiding them strenuously for their passivity and failure to see the obvious:   "You!" she said. "You are the leaders that you are waiting for! Now, get to work!"

The man being interviewed said that he teared up with emotion, first at the wisdom of one so young, and then at the rightness of what she said.

Now! Get to work!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 09:18 PM

No proof. Man. Look at the story above about the under-reported stories of 2006. Kellog-Brown & Root got $385 million last year to build concentration camps. And what about the Astrodome after Hurricane Katrina? Those folks were held in there at gunpoint. THAT'S why football is so insanely funded at the expense of education in the U.S., so each little town will have a stadium, a containment facility. One of the most effective methods of slaughter during the Rwandan civil war was to collect Tutsis in stadiums, under U.N. guard, so the guards could withdraw at night and let the Hutus in, with their machetes. Identical "containment facilities" are everywhere you look in the U.S.

As far as the GPS coordinates in Taylor, I don't have them. I thought I recalled the directions from a radio interview, but looking at a map disc now I guess I don't have them straight. The reporter said to take Hwy 79 east off I.H. 35, toward Taylor. He said something about this and that in Taylor (which I didn't get), but then he said stay on the hwy 79 access road to Oak street and take a right on Doak. Both those streets are on my disc, south of Taylor, and they do intersect. So if you can find Oak St. (south of Taylor and just south of the R.R. tracks), then follow it until it pretty much ends, take a right on Doak and go south. I think he said the facility is a block or so after that turn. Doak is only 4-5 blocks long. The man said a residential area's on one side of the street and the containment facility on the other. You might want to look at one of the mapping sites because I couldn't describe the hwy 79 access thing if I had to. The place is called the "T. Don Hutto Residential Center."

And yeah, I know what you mean Little Hawk about the noise on the net. I get tired of just trying to prove the obvious to people. I mean, like the KBR story...man. The GOVT admits it, KBR admits it, but I'm a kook if I mention it. Been years since I've studied reincarnation, but back when I was doing that, I read a series of 4 novels by a Japanese writer named Yukio Mishima (pen name). His final four novels were connected, following a reincarnated soul. Amazing writing, really good in translation. Anyway, that's the best fictional reading I've ever come across on the topic of reincarnation. The Sea of Fertility cycle, it's called. You might look for those.


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST,TOO
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 11:48 PM

Jaysus, Mary, and Joseph, not to mention Holy Moses!

Now FOOTBALL is a government plot!


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Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 12:58 AM

Thanks, Guest. Mishima was an interesting character allright.

Regarding the football stadiums: The immense footprint of Roman civilization is still all over western society, and one of the things we have inherited from them is huge sports arenas...our version of the collosseums that were located in all larger Roman cities, and which were a mark of a city's entry into "the big leagues". Another thing we inherited is the huge oval racetrack where betting is done on horse races. Any such large facility is handy for an authoritarian state, since a lot of people can be held prisoner inside it by guarding just a few entrances. I doubt that they designed the big stadiums with that conscious purpose in mind, but they are always there when a rogue government needs them. People were corralled in such a stadium and tortured and killed by Pinochet's military government in Chile when Allende was overthrown by a CIA-supported coup. Interestingly enough, that happened on Sep 11...1973.   (seems to be a very unlucky date)

Here's a brief summary:

"On September 11, 1973, a military coup d'état removed Allende. The intervention was extremely violent from the very beginning. The rebels surrounded the La Moneda Palace with tanks and infantry troops and bombed it with Hawker Hunter fighter jets. The president and some of his aides were besieged in the palace. Allende refused to surrender, and addressed the nation for a last time in a potent farewell speech.

The worst violence occurred in the first few months after the coup, with the number of suspected leftists killed or "disappeared" soon reaching into the thousands. In the days immediately following the coup, the National Stadium was used as a concentration camp holding 40,000 prisoners. Some of the most famous cases of "desaparecidos" are Charles Horman, a U.S. citizen who was tortured and killed during the coup itself; Chilean songwriter Víctor Jara, murdered while held prisoner at the Chile Stadium immediately after the coup, and the October 1973 Caravan of Death (Caravana de la Muerte) where at least 70 persons were killed. Approximately 130,000 individuals were arrested in a three-year period, with the number of dead and "disappeared" reaching into the thousands within the first few months. Most of the people targeted had been supporters of Allende."


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