BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 09:01 PM

Several people have said it better than me -- the world is so very different now. Having said that, reading the local paper the middle school kids at King are QUITE CLEAR that the majority of them are not sexually active but that this is a need to protect a certain smaller group by offering birth control. I don't know what the answer is -- I truly don't. But it cannot be right for children to be having children; better they don't have sex, yes -- most of them won't while still in middle school, good - but if they do have sex, let's give them condoms and birthcontrol so they do not become parents before they are nearly ready -- and at the same time work with them on making great choices. Having said that, both my daughters were on the pill with my support and love at the age of 15. Turns out one of them was sexually active that young, and one was not . Now they are 25 and 22, lovely young women, building their lives and not trying to raise babies on their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 07:30 PM

Kent

Removing a wart from the toe isn't something that a child would be scared to tell their parent about. Pregnancy is. My daughter, now 38, told me, after a sex education lesson when a schoolgirl of about 14, that she was the only girl in her class who would not be afraid of telling their parents that they were pregnant.

Is it better that a child has somewhere to turn to in that situation if they really cannot tell their parents, or do we want them to try and deal with the problem themselves, based on old wives tales or trying to find someone who will do the deed off the radar?

I was five months pregnant before I told my parents and was disowned because I preferred to marry the baby's father than to go along with my father's plan to send me away until the baby was born and then have it adopted. Quite often the kids who do get pregnant are in family situations where they do not trust their parents to react in a non frightening way as they have little sign of caring from those parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Kent Davis
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:30 PM

Greg B.,

Times have indeed changed. The question is what to do about it. For forty years, easier and earlier access to birth control has been promoted as part of the solution. My point (and, I suppose, the point of TRUBRITT's son) is that it hasn't worked.

The second quote is not mine, but rather Becca72's. However, as a physician and parent (and formerly, very briefly, a child protective service worker), I do "have a problem with" the idea that parental consent laws should not cover reproductive health. I can't legally remove a wart from a girl's big toe without parental permission, but it's O.K. if I remove a child from her womb without even their knowledge?!

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 02:05 PM

Grab, you say, "The majority of girls lose their virginity before they're 18. The majority of boys don't. This says more about girls becoming sexually active earlier and soliciting the boys, rather than the other way around!"

It implies far more, imo, that it is often the older boys who pressure the younger girls into sex. Two reasons: 1) Older boys are most often more self-confident and have a clearer aim than the peers of the younger girls. 2) Younger girls are often deeply flattered that older boys chose them to pay attention to.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 01:52 PM

Surely strictly speaking it's statutory rape for both of them, if they are under age.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 01:40 PM

Too true Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Greg B
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 11:51 AM

Kent:

>Did you know a lot of pregnant preteens when you were a preteen, when
>children's access to birth control and even information about birth
>control was much more limited? If not, maybe your son has a valid
>point.

Times have, as the saying goes, changed. Kids are starting sex early,
very early. At ages where we'd have been thrilled by a kiss on the
cheek. They do so in spite of admonitions and advice to the contrary.

And they do so whether or not they have access to contraception.

>Parents do not need to be consulted in matters of drugs, mental
>health or reproductive health issues. They claim that the kids have a
>right to privacy. I have a problem with that when you're talking
>about 11 and 12 year olds.

The principle at work here is that laws should look out first for
the interest of the child. There is overwhelming interest that
a young person be able to get treatment for mental health, drug,
and reproductive issues without being inhibited either by fear of
parental response or by parental refusal of said treatment.
Indeed, the most important thing in such situations may be a
conversation with a competent professional--- and the availability
of confidential treatment in a clinical setting may be the ONLY
place where a girl asks for the pill actually has the opportunity
to have such an important conversation, rather than with a peer.

I find the whole notion of the sorts of 'rights' which people
sometimes think they can assert over their children to be
somewhat disquieting, in any case. Perhaps because the principle
is so often asserted in a blatant attempt to take away women's
reproductive rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Grab
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 10:54 AM

Jacqui, I'm sure it happens a lot. But said girl could ditch that boy and get another one any day. The sad fact there is that they don't realise they're the ones who could be in control, just because they're not used to the idea.

But try being a lad whose contact with girls is a string of "you gotta be kidding?! go out with you?!" reactions, especially when the source of that is likely because you're at the bottom of the male pecking (or punching-and-kicking) order. And even that puts you in the minority of being a lad who'd have the guts to ask a girl out - all too many have such low confidence that they wouldn't dare to think of it.

I guess the bottom line is that for a lot of kids, adolescence is the worst time of their lives, not just with the opposite sex but also with bullying from the same sex. The best you can do is survive it and spend the next 5-10 years healing.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:16 AM

Grab

That's OK but for the fact that there are girls out there with very low self esteem and families who do not make them feel loved or wanted. Any sort of attention at all from a boy can influence those girls and they will go to any lengths to keep that bit of affection. They learn from experience that to deny a boy sex means that they lose the relationship and can be seen as promiscuous as a result.

In that sort of situation their parents probably haven't done any sort of job of sex education and so they may be unaware of the consequences or know where to go to get some sort of protection. That was certainly the case in the early 60s, when I was in that situation. Maybe not so much now, but when a boy says bareback or I'm gone a kid like this is likely to agree to that, just to have someone she perceives as caring for her.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Grab
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 05:38 AM

Boys, on the other hand seem to have a higher bar set for them by the pool of potential partners.

That's kind of what I meant. If a girl wants sex, she can get it whenever she wants by soliciting the boy of her choice. If a boy wants sex, chances are he can't because the girls are the ones who do the choosing. This rather rules out "statutory rape".

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Kent Davis
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:49 PM

TRUBRITT,

You stated, regarding giving birth control to middle school kids, "My son...thought this was an appalling idea ...I view it very much as the parent who is a doctor and whose kids attend there who said -- I see kids in this age group everyday who are pregnant-- do we want this? NO! Do we want to prevent it.....sure do"

Did you know a lot of pregnant preteens when you were a preteen, when children's access to birth control and even information about birth control was much more limited? If not, maybe your son has a valid point.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Becca72
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 07:27 PM

I do find it alarming, Nickhere, but that's the way it works here in Maine, at least. Parents do not need to be consulted in matters of drugs, mental health or reproductive health issues. They claim that the kids have a right to privacy. I have a problem with that when you're talking about 11 and 12 year olds.

One more reason why I'm glad I decided long ago not to have kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Nickhere
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 07:21 PM

Becca72; "The parents have to sign a form giving their children permission to be treated in the clinic for ANYTHING. Once in the clinic the children and healthcare providers don't need to tell the parents what the kids are there for"

I'd find that a bit alarming. I think clinics should not have carte blanche to treat kids for anything without informing their parents. It sounds a bit like those competition forms in some countries that ask compeitors to tick a box asking if they agree to be contacted by the company in future. Of course, it's for marekting spam, but if you don't tivck the box, they cliam they can't contact you to inform you if you've won the competition either. It's worth remembering that in all the main totalitarian regimes, Mao's China, Stalin's Russia, Hitler's Hitler Youth, Pol Pot's Cambodia, etc., the state targeted children, weaning them away from their parents, trying to step into their place, undermine the parents. They wanted to make the state, and not the family, the first stop ofm loyalty for the children.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Becca72
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 03:32 PM

It was my understanding that hasn't been approved yet, Ranger1. Just read an article in the Press Herald today about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: ranger1
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 03:30 PM

Becca, they added an opt-out clause once the hubbub started allowing kids to use the clinic but not to receive the contraceptives.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Greg B
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 01:32 PM

Normally, statutory rape laws recognize age differences between
partners. This keeps 19-year-old men from getting convicted of
statutory rape in engaging in consensual sex with their 17-year-old
girlfriend after the prom. It also recognizes that there's a difference
between an eighth-grader experimenting sexually with a sixth-grader,
and his (or her) doing the same with a third-grader. It works pretty
well.

I interpret those virginity statistics differently: most teen-age
girls have the one and only thing required to persuade a member of
the opposite sex to deflower them in the social convention: a vagina.

Boys, on the other hand seem to have a higher bar set for them
by the pool of potential partners. Those that do succeed in
becoming sexually active, however, tend to enjoy the same success
with multiple partners, over time. Older boys, as they proceed
through secondary school, are able to be successful with and
interested in the girls in the lower grades. It's much more rare
for an older girl to have any interest in a younger boy.

The result isn't too different from seal rookeries--- there are
a smaller number of successful males servicing a population of
available females.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Becca72
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 12:11 PM

The issue at the local middle school (children 11 - 14 years of age) is about oral contraceptives for the female students. They have been offering condoms in school for several years now with no hubbub. I read in the local paper that in Maine there are approximately 20 pregnancies per year for girls under the age of 15. 20 per year. I guess they're all happening at this particular middle school. I have no problems whatsoever with handing out condoms to these kids and showing them how to use them properly as well as sex education. What I do have a problem with is them given the pill to 11,12 and 13 year old girls who aren't finished developing and growing yet. Do they have any idea what the long term effects will be? How are these children going to deal with the side effects, or remembering to take the pill every day at the exact same time? Seems to me that condoms are a more effective method for people this age.
Also, to comment on Ranger1's remark about needing parental permission.. The parents have to sign a form giving their children permission to be treated in the clinic for ANYTHING. Once in the clinic the children and healthcare providers don't need to tell the parents what the kids are there for.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Nickhere
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:51 AM

Greg B: "When questioned on
it the old bat that enforced this rule explained that pregnant girls
were a 'bad example.' I never had the nerve to ask her if she felt
like an 'accessory' to 'murder,' since she basically forced girls
who didn't want an unwanted pregnancy to ruin their lives to have
abortions...which she called 'murder.' I'd like to now"

I agree on this one. That's not the right way to do things. Once the girl got pregnant - for whatever reason - the only christian thing to do is suport her and the new human life growing in her, and to continue that support after the baby is born. That's a job for the whole of society, starting with the immediate family and working outwards in a ripple.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Nickhere
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:45 AM

Jaqui "No sex education in schools and none from my parents either"

Obviosuly that's not a good thing either. One solution might be sex-eductaion for PARENTS! Of course, we think they don't need it (obviously they knew enough to be parents) but it's more complicated than that. Schools should run evening courses taeching parents how to approach their kids on a range of topics, from drugs to sex, to running a home. While you might think parents automatically can do all that stuff, it doesn't mean they are abel to effectively transmit their knowledge to their kids in a relaxed way.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Nickhere
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:34 AM

Greg B: "To me if a woman is old enough to conceive a child, she's old
enough to make her own decision about sexual intercourse (or
not), and old enough to be offered a woman's universal right
to determine, by whatever means, the disposition of her own
body"

There have been cases of 12-year old girls conceiving - do you consider them old enough to "make decision's about her own body and its disposition"? Just because a child / girl / woman is physically capable of becoming pregnant at a given age, it doesn't follow that they should. Perhaps thousands of years ago when life spans rarely went beyond 40 and people had to get their living done early, such a thing might have been feasible but times have changed and society expects different things now. We spend almost a quarter of our lives in education and at least a similar amount of time before most people even get married. Having to take care of a child puts such a young mother at a disadvantage (I know because I have seen it first hand as well as having studied up on it). It is not a disadvantage that can't be overcome with enough of the right kind of support from friends and family, but that isn't always on offer.

As supposedly "grown-ups" we have a duty to look after our younger memebers of society to ensure they get the best possible start in life and the rigth kind of direction. We don't let kids of 12 drive cars on the public roads, or smoke or drink, though many of them are able to do so physically (and indeed do so). The point is that there is a big difference between being physically capable of something and emotionally and psychologically ready to take responsibility for the possible consequences. as the say goes "any old fool of a man can make a child, it takes a real man to raise one" We do not consider children up to this level of maturity and so try and keep them as far as possible from harm's way until they develop that maturity enough to look out for themselves. A typical comment I've heard from many women is that they wish they hadn't let their boy'friend' pressure them into having sex when they were young on the blackmail that the love would stop otherwise. Only a more grown-up woman can spot that kind of nonsense, so it makes sense to try and teach and protect our kids too.

Despite the fact that kids may do things they would be better off not doing, I disagree with giving out contraception to younger kids on principle. I think it does tend to give kids the impression that such behaviour is at least not frowned upon and is ok, when this is not in their best interests. I know many kids will experiment with all the wrong stuff anyway (I am living proof of that) but it doens't help if no-one from the grown up world to whom they consciously or unconciosuly seek guidance, does not set limits.

Another approach would be for society to send out avery strong and unequivocal message that sex at too young an age is not good for those involved - emotionally, psychologically or physically. That's not happening at present if you take a look at what passes for entertainment etc etc., Underage pregnancies etc., will only reduce in incidence if the 'water' of society as a whole in which these 'fish' swim undertakes a shake-up of its attitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Grab
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 10:21 AM

Sins, I don't know about you, but I damn sure don't want 13-year-old boys arrested for statutory rape. Nor even 15-year-old boys.

The statistics are actually pretty clear about virginity. The majority of girls lose their virginity before they're 18. The majority of boys don't. This says more about girls becoming sexually active earlier and soliciting the boys, rather than the other way around!

And yes, it does look like better sex education is in order round there...

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Greg B
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 09:25 AM

I graduated high school 30 years ago. Went to a suburban Catholic
high school, considered quite a 'shelter' in the San Francisco
Bay Area (Hayward--- not like it was Berkeley or anything).

Within a week or so of arrival, I was surprised to overhear a schoolmate
trading for LSD by our lockers. We definitely had a 'burn out' clique;
the guys with the pea-coats that reeked of 'resin.'

We also had our share of pregnant girls. And the absurd rule that
once a girl began to 'show,' she was expelled. No exception for rape
or incest. She was out. But abortion was 'murder.' When questioned on
it the old bat that enforced this rule explained that pregnant girls
were a 'bad example.' I never had the nerve to ask her if she felt
like an 'accessory' to 'murder,' since she basically forced girls
who didn't want an unwanted pregnancy to ruin their lives to have
abortions...which she called 'murder.' I'd like to now.

It's one thing to tell kids not to have sex, using whatever
moral, health, and other arguments to influence the decision.

But what kind of control freak needs to hold the 'fear of pregnancy'
gun to their heads in order to get them to comply? It doesn't just
hold the teens themselves hostage it holds the potential child
hostage to being born into an unhappy set of circumstances. And
these are the same hypocrites who drive around with anti-abortion
bumper stickers and talk about the 'sanctity' of 'the family!'

Seems to me like it's all about asserting control over youngsters
at any cost, and without regard to their volition or rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:38 AM

I became a teenager at the beginning of the 60s. No sex education in schools and none from my parents either. I learned what I knew from the other kids at school but that didn't stop me from getting pregnant at 17 and ending up having to get married, against the wishes of my parents. My first sexual experience was when I was 14.

Now, if there had been sex education and some way to get protection - I didn't even know about condoms then - maybe my life would have been different. Not better, just different.

Some children are probably always going to be starting a sexual life before they are ready - due to ignorance, parental neglect etc. IMO it is better that those children have somewhere to turn to get, at the least, protection against pregnancy and maybe some guidance as to preventing STDs from someone who gives a damn.

I can't ever remember drugs being available when I was at school in North London. Probably a good thing - I was vulnerable enough at that time to be a real target. I worry about my grandchildren, growing up in an age when this becomes more of a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 11:08 PM

Sins and Ranger 1 -- I DO know the drugs are out there in the schools -- my shock was to do with the TYPE of drugs that my son indicates are readily available -- the nature of the drugs in the school yards is what has blown me away -- heroin and cocaine I did not expect in S Portland High School.

I liked (and agreed with ) Bill's thoughful comments. None of this is easy! I am ecstatic that my three kids, youngest now 19, have made it this far without any unwanted pregnancy, heavy drugs, (that I am aware of), jail time and/or any record to speak of. And they all have HS diplomas - one has a four year degree, and one an Associate's degree and all three are gainfully employed. PHEW!!

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 07:28 PM

Deborah,
I am amazed that you don't know about the existence of drugs in school yards. I went to a Cathiloc grammar school and at 12 could have told you where you get drugs although it was usually pot in those days.

Humorous note: The same school district is debating banning peanut butter in school. Detention for PP&B; gold star for getting laid safely.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 07:25 PM

I have been following the news story on this school and I am confused about a few things. First, these children are under 13 years of age - is anyone monitoring who they are having sex with? Doesn't stautory rape possibly figure into this?

Second, one of the board members pointed out that this was necessary to prevent unwanted pregnancies. I have to wonder: exactly how many pregnancies occur in this school's stuent body (no pun intended) annually? If it is a huge number, perhaps education on pregancy prevention and even abstinence is in order.

This is the same school district that is mired in a fiscal mess having gone millions over budget with little or no explanation. Are they trying to draw attention away from the missing millions?

by the way, this is not the first scholl in the US or even in Maine to offer birth control so why has the Press jumped all over ito

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 03:01 PM

Ebbie, I worked for 12 years in Geauga County and 16 in Elkhart County -- both of them have Amish populations that are quite large. I think he's referring to my earlier statement that there were drugs in the Amish schools, and there were. I know of one bar in Middlefield, OH that had part of the ceiling reinforced so that the bartender could, when necessary, get the attention of the young, unchurched, Amish men by shooting off a .44. At closing, even in winter, those young men unable to stand were dragged outside and picked up by a farm wagon which rolled them off at their homes.

Once Churched things changed, usually.

Story goes of a very respected Amish leader (I knew him and he was) went into a bar, sat down with a "Yankee" friend, ordered a beer, lit up a cigarette, and said, "Well, this is the last of these I'll have for quite a while."

"What's wrong, Uri?" his friend asked. "Medical problems?"

"No," Uri replied, "they just elected me Bishop."

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: ranger1
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 02:51 PM

TRUBRIT, all of those drugs have been available in Maine schools for a long time. I graduated from a rural high school of 600 students 20 years ago, and they were all available then.

As for the contraceptive issue at the middle school, what has been left out of most of the hype is the fact that the parents of those girls have to sign a release stating that they give permission to the school to dispense the pills to them. It's not like the school is doing it without parental knowledge or consent.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:05 PM

I don't know what Donuel's comment about 'Amish Ecstasy barn raising' refers to but in my opinion the Amish are among the most vulnerable to drug abuse. Ignorance has that effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Grab
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 12:58 PM

I didn't mean everyone, Richard - sorry, should have made it clearer. But those who *have* said they're shocked seem to be of that era. Same as the European generation of parents who were so shocked at Flower Power were themselves pretty damn promiscuous during WW2. As always, the story is "Do as we tell you, not as we do"...

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 12:55 PM

"Also, I was shocked that my son did not see the merits of making birth control available to young sexually active teens..."

This is one of the most difficult issues to resolve. It seems everyone has a gut reaction to the idea....for OR against. It seems like it is just saying "here...use these, and do anything you wish..", but it also seems that many will just 'do anything they wish', anyway, and they might as well be protected.

   Anytime you have a controversy strewn with debates over moral AND psychological opinions, you'll never get any sort of consensus.

They try to solve it by requiring 'parental approval, but that hardly addresses the real problem...but only moves it back one level.

It is similar to the issue of making clean needles available to drug addicts.....
   I think I am mostly in favor of making ANY protection available to kids, even without parents' approval....even though it makes me sad that it is necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 11:20 AM

A good ol Amish ecstasy barn raising... who da thunk it.



Times and sayings change as the life condition and influences change society...


60's "tune in turn on drop out"

late 60's "if it feels good do it"

70's insert any ABBA or Bee Gee's lyric "________ _____ "

80's "Do the right thing"

late 80's "Just say NO!"

90's "You gotta do what you gotta do"

2000 "you are with us or you are against us"

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:25 AM

I did start this thread so will 'weigh in'...I wasn't really intending to compare schools with then and now -- I went to school in the UK and atually I am late (very late) fiftyish.....! I think my amazement on the conversation with my son was to do with DEGREE -- obviously I know drugs are out there and are pretty endemic.....but I guess I was truly shocked that a high school in Maine had cocaine and heroin easily available. I'll confess to being naieve.

Also, I was shocked that my son did not see the merits of making birth control available to young sexually active teens -- that blew me away, as has the response of the community to this. People are making noises about recalling the school committee who passed the initiative...........it seems out of all proportion to everything.

As a child of the 60s I do have enough understanding to know that kids are going to drink, have sex and take drugs.........; doesn't mean it wasn't hard to absorb when it was MY kids doing all of the above. But we have always encouraged them to be safe in their practices -- so was really puzzled why my son would not agree with benefits for other kids that had readily been available to him and to his sisters.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:12 AM

Grab - no I'm not.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:11 AM

When I worked in a small NE Ohio town in the early 1970s some of the parents were truly shocked to find out that there was a drug problem in the school there. Some of them had moved there to get away from the drug problems in the Cleveland schools, and here it was!

Golly. The old-time residents weren't shocked. They had figured it was just a matter of time before what happened in the "big city" made its way to the small town 30 miles away.

I don't know of a single town anywhere in the US where drugs aren't available to school children, even down to the elementary level.

Sex has always been with us, and as my grandmother said, "When they're ready, they will want to. All you can do is try to train them not to until they're old enough to handle it." She'd know -- she was 17 when her first child, my father, was born after four months of marriage.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Grab
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 08:52 AM

But there were fewer extra-maritally pregnant friends going through this fifty years ago.

Were there really fewer pregnant teens back then? I think more likely you didn't hear about them. Girl married boy in a shotgun wedding (hence avoiding the "extra-marital" part), or girl got a backstreet abortion (and maybe died), or girl had kid and it was raised as her "sister" or "cousin" (and in some cases it could have been her half-sister, since sexual abuse was virtually unreported, and unreportable), or girl had kid and it went to Barnado's or whatever your equivalent is. And no-one said zip about the pregnancy. Look further back, like 100 or more years, and teenage pregnancy was the norm. Also compare to places like Romania where birth control wasn't available, and look at the orphanages there. Kinsey put the boot into the 1950s folk myth of straitlaced-ness fairly comprehensively - it turned out that all this stuff *was* going on, but no-one dared to speak out in case the rest of their town-full of hypocrites turned on them.

Anyway, Trubrit started the thread. Age of son suggests she's probably 40ish, so the comparison is with schools in the 1970s, not the 1950s.

And it's pretty ironic for me that the Flower Power generation and their kids are saying how shocked they are that kids today are experimenting with sex and drugs! As Greg says, it's selective amnesia.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 12:53 PM

By and large I'm in favour of pleasure, and the alleviation of the risks that go with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 12:50 PM

Nothing too surprising here, I'd have thought. I note (and welcome) the way that this conversation tends to rubbish the simplistic assumption that views come in packaged sets, so that if you know someone's views on one issue you can product how they'll think on a host of others in a knee-jerk fashion - in this case sexual mores, on the one hand, and drugs, on the other.

Life isn't that simple, and people aren't that simple either.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 12:31 PM

Cite your sources, please, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 10:32 AM

"Adults seem to think that young folks will modulate their sexuality
based upon the fear of pregnancy. Selective amnesia. Did they?

Quite obviously, yes. The comparitive pregnancy rate is astronomically higher since the advent of abortion on demand.

"Or more to the point, did their pregnant friends?"

Obviously not. But there were fewer extra-maritally pregnant friends going through this fifty years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 10:23 AM

I think the worrying about giving kids implicit 'permission' to have sex by offering contraceptives is rubbish. Even if it does have that effect I believe I'm right in saying the average age for first sex is roughly the same all over Europe despite different ages of consent. So if people are quite happy to ignore *explicit* permission from the state why would there be worries about offering them condoms or the pill or whatever?

I don't believe the assertion further up either though. Just because someone is able to conceive does not make them ready for a sexual relationship or a child. I mean can't some girls theoretically conceive at 12? I think education and encouragement in the right direction are far better than draconian measures though. And certainly better than depriving people who are having sex of protection.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 04:32 AM

Oh well said Greg B.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 04:10 AM

In the following article it is estimated that for some areas one in four youth, aged 13 to 23, is infected with a Sexually Transmitted Disease.

It will take more than free rain-coats to weather this storm.

http://www.csuchico.edu/cjhp/5/3/080-091-jerman.pdf

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 03:39 AM

straight edge kids - so that's where the folk music was going on......

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Greg B
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 01:16 AM

I'm with you, m8--- I don't quite see the connection (connexion?)
between oral contraceptives and "drugs."

To me if a woman is old enough to conceive a child, she's old
enough to make her own decision about sexual intercourse (or
not), and old enough to be offered a woman's universal right
to determine, by whatever means, the disposition of her own
body.

Adults seem to think that young folks will modulate their sexuality
based upon the fear of pregnancy. Selective amnesia. Did they?
Or more to the point, did their pregnant friends?

These same folks bitch about abortion...

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 12:44 AM

I guess from these comments that Iwas just totally out in left field on this one......

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 11:35 PM

I know my son has tried several different kinds of drugs, though I didn't know it at the time. I know he still does pot on occasion. Neither of my daughters have, though one does smoke. They never saw me use anything. I never did pot or anything else. Rog smokes. I'd read years ago that if a daughter sees her mother smoke and/or drink etc. she will most likely do the same. It was likewise for a son and father. Despite my son's experimenting, my kids have all done okay and I know they've been surrounded by drugs in school, etc. Good examples still count for something at home. I regret that I didn't keep Rog from smoking in front of them when they were young. FWIW, they are both trying to stop, now.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Janie
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:38 PM

A couple of weeks ago my son and I were listening to a Stephen Colbert interview on "All Things Considered." The interviewer inquired about his adolescent years - Colbert said he was not very rebellious "I smoked some pot and didn't do some homework, nothing major." My son turned to me in surprise and said, "Nothing major? Is that not a big deal?" He was at first shocked. Then seriously and genuinely asking. Then I could almost see the wheels beginning to turn in his brain. He enjoys the Colbert report on the rare occasion he sees it (neither his Dad or I have television) and certainly views him as a respectable celebrity. I realized he was considering that maybe some things that he considered to be 'beyond the pale' were perhaps not.

I don't think Colbert was intending at all to plant seeds in a 13 year old mind that smoking pot and blowing off school work is 'no big deal.' But he did. If Colbert had been, say, a gansta' rapper, or a bad boy sports icon, my boy would have given no weight to his statement. He is quite capable of considering the source. In this case, however, the source was one he deemed worth considering.

My point is that our kids get messages in all kinds of ways that drugs, alcohol, early sex, etc. might be ok. I can't pick that seed out of the fertile ground of his young mind. I can only hope that our further discussion and the values I am trying to teach make germination unlikely.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 09:51 PM

Sympathies rapaire. That's hard stuff for anyone to cope with.

Subject: RE: BS: Amazing conversation with a 19 yr. old..
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 09:11 PM

Please have yer son call me... I am completely outta pot and about to go mad...


B;)