BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: dianavan
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:20 PM

Teribus - I didn't get back to you on the question of negotiation because your question was answered by others more competent than myself.

As to Bush using the term "crusade", I would definitely say that it has been acted upon and that it was not dismissed lightly by the fundamentalists in America. In fact, thats what most people think this war is about.

I know that it is not true, but like Arafat, Bush sets the tone. One is no better than the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: akenaton
Date: 20 May 04 - 05:39 PM

Teribus...Its completely un fair to attribute to me support for any of the actions of Osama BL.
Since I started posting not that long ago I havbe said repeatedly that Islamic fundamentalist tactics are beastial.
In saying that, I also believe that the Western responce to these tactic,the so called "war on terror"is counter productive.
We must find some way to lessen the power of the Islamic clerics ,without destroyingthe Islamic culture and religion, and this means a new mindset for the West.
The days are gone when we could batter opponents into submission or use subversive Capitalism as a tool. The fundamentalists are not susceptible to these tactics,and will go to any lengths to destroy us,before we destroy them.
Unfortunately they have all the aces ,and if we dont change course, i can see a bleak future
I think you are wrong to smear both Carol and myself as supporters of Islamic fundamentalism,without having any evidence to support that allegation.
I dont agree with everything that Carol says ,but her stance in favour of the Palistinians ,written in a very measured and composed manner is admirable.
The amount of personal abuse that she receives is cowardly and disgraceful,and Ihave yet to see her respond in such a manner...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 04 - 04:00 PM

Thanks beardedbruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 02:20 PM

CarolC:

"Also, I was stung by a dozen or so fire ants earlier this evening, and I am a bit allergic to their sting and I don't feel very well."

I hope you are feeling better, soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:44 PM

It could also be said that the US was founded on genocide, btw.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:40 PM

Therefore, I guess we have no right to exist either.

Larry K, please show me where I said that Israel does not have a right to exist.

Carol C.- You state that Israel was founded on terrorism.   (I always thought it was by UN declaration- thanks for correcting me)   I would venture to say that the USA was also founded on terrorism.   If you asked the British, we certainly didn't follow conventional battle rules and were labeled as terrorists.

It was terrorims that got them what they wanted from Britain and the UN.


November 25, 1940- Haganah blows up the S.S.Patria, killing more than 250 Jews.

November 6, 1944- Stern Gang Assasinates British Minister Resident in the Middle East, Lord Moyne.

July 22, 1946- Irgun Tsvai Leumi members led by Menachem Begin blow up the King David Hotel, killing 91 people, most of them civilians, including 17 Jews.

September 17, 1948- UN representative Count Bernadote Folke assasinated by Stern Gang:

"Count Folke Bernadotte of Wisborg (January 2, 1895 - September 17, 1948), is noted for his negotiation for the release of prisoners from the German concentration camps in World War II.

He was assassinated, along with UN observer Colonel André Serot, on September 17th in Jerusalem by members of Lehi, a Zionist extremist group also known as the "Stern Gang", after its founder."


Those are just a few examples. And yes, the US could probably be said to have been founded on terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:39 PM

If Hamas can say that they could under certain conditions recognize the State of Israel (RE. Jim McCallan 17 May 04 - 07:46 PM ), surely it would not be unreasonable to assume that Bin Laden could be talked to, as well.

It always comes back to the Israeli/Palestinian problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:27 PM

dianavan, 20 May 04 - 12:01 AM

"Getting back to the fact that Arafat quoted the Koran =

Lets not forget that the Koran was written when tribal wars were fought throughout the world."

Then it's high time the interpretation was revised.

For Bush to call something a "crusade" is a figure of speach, that few if any will act on. For someone to quote the Koran, as Arafat did, is incitement, and he fully knows and appreciates that, knowing damn well that it will be acted on.

By the bye dianavan, you never got back to me regarding the negotiating basis with Osama bin Laden, et al, that would be open to all the nice people in America (i.e. non-Republicans and non-supporters of the current administration) under the leadership of John F Kerry, on the basis of the fatwah Osama issued in 1998 when the Clinton Administration was in power. Doubt in fact if you've actually bothered to read the declaration of war that has been made against everyone who doesn't fully agree with OBL - Oh sorry I forgot that small number does include you and Akenaton.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 20 May 04 - 11:44 AM

Carol C.- You state that Israel was founded on terrorism.   (I always thought it was by UN declaration- thanks for correcting me)   I would venture to say that the USA was also founded on terrorism.   If you asked the British, we certainly didn't follow conventional battle rules and were labeled as terrorists.

Therefore, I guess we have no right to exist either.    Quite frankly I don't have the time to research this properly and give you 57 links (one for each Heinz variety or Kerry position) but I would venture to say that most countries in the world were founded by war or at least their borders were determined by war or terrorism.

All the links in the world can't help you if you don't know right from wrong.   When you compare jews living in Germany (who fought for Germany in World War I, supported the German government, were a fabric of German society, and never threatened the German goverernment) with islamic extremests (who have declared war on the west and committed multiple acts of murder)you clearly do not a clue.

Unfortunately, you are not alone.    There are many people who cannot differentiate between jay walkers and mass murderers and defend them by saying that none of us are perfect and that both acts are a crime.   Therefore Ted Bundy is no different that Mother Theresa for- we all are human beings. As much as it pains me to say it, those of us on the right, must continue to fight for freedom, to protect your right to say idiotic things.    That is your right in a free society.

PS:   I did enjoy your labeling me as a nazi.    A conservative never feels he has won the battle till a liberal calls you a racist and a nazi.   I now feel complete.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: dianavan
Date: 20 May 04 - 12:01 AM

Getting back to the fact that Arafat quoted the Koran =

Lets not forget that the Koran was written when tribal wars were fought throughout the world. One of the best advantages you could have in battle was to terrorize your enemy by your frightening image. Thats why many tribes used war paint. Weren't bagpipes and bugles used in much the same way? How about some of the outlandish headgear and other methods of creating fear.

Is Arafat's comment any different than when Bush called this a crusade?

Of course we're the enemy. What else do you call people who invade your land? Of course he has the right to urge all Arabs to be strong. What do you expect him to say, stand aside and let them rule the country according to Christian principles?

The arrogance of the western world is astounding.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 04 - 11:57 PM

Correction. The following... However, from reading the article in the second link in this thread

...should read: However, from reading the article in the second link in this post

Thank you for your comment, robomatic. I'm learning a lot from searching this stuff up, including how to be more effective at doing searches.

I'm not going to be able to devote much, if any, time to looking stuff up or giving any kind of in depth answers to anyone for the next few days. Allan C is coming to visit this weekend, and I have a lot of getting ready to do. Also, I was stung by a dozen or so fire ants earlier this evening, and I am a bit allergic to their sting and I don't feel very well.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 04 - 11:42 PM

so, where is your demand for the property of those Jews to be returned to them, as you want the supposed property of the Palestinians returned? Or aren't Jews entitled to the same considerations????

beardedbruce, please show me where I have said I want the "supposed" property of the Palestinians returned.

I notice you have quite a fondness for question marks.

I have already posted two links in this thread that discuss this issue, one of them in some detail. Suffice it to say, at least some Mizrahim (Iraqi Jews) believe that it's the government of Israel who is responsible for their assets having been confiscated. The issue is apparently very complicated, and I don't fully understand it, but these links give some of the answers. The article you quoted (from my quote) touches on it a little bit:

"What does the State of Israel do with the story of the expropriated Jewish property? In March 1951, Moshe Sharet informed the Knesset that the State of Israel now has an account to settle with Iraq since the latter expropriated the property of its Jewish subjects. The government of Israel allows itself to balance the value of the property that the Palestinians left with the value of the property that was taken from Jews in Arab lands.

The connection is made by a political logic, however the basic assumptions behind this interesting linkage are not very clear. What is the connection between Iraqi Jews and Palestinians? How can the State of Israel use the property of Iraqi Jews, which is not even in its hands, to settle the account of another problem that it created?"


This article goes into the subject in much more depth, and I have to admit that I don't understand what the article is saying enough to be able to have an opinion on it:

http://www.dangoor.com/70006.html

Here's the author's main contention as stated in the article:

My study aimed to show how Israel established a connection between these two demands, and then freed itself from both of them.


I have never called for the government of Israel to return expropriated assets to the Palestinians (with the exception of the removal of the settlements and the return of the land they occupy in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem (on the Palestinian side of the green line), although I used to be of the opinion that all governments who have expropriated assets from anyone should reimburse them for what they took.

However, from reading the article in the second link in this thread, I find that I don't understand the issue enough to have an informed opinion on it. So I defer to the Iraqi Jews on the issue. I think they should get whatever they think is fair, and is feasable. And the Palestinians should recieve equal consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: dianavan
Date: 19 May 04 - 10:32 PM

Nerd,

Thank-you for a very good description of terrorism:

"It meant that, since they did not have the
resources to fight against armies in a conventional way, killing thousands of people on each side, they had to make each
killing count for as much as possible. Adding terror to the equation, by killing five people one could have the psychological
impact of having killed a whole company of soldiers. The idea was actually to preserve life, among other things. (In a country
where the military was overwhelmingly made up of conscripts, the theory was that killing civilians was really not much
different than killing soldiers, who were merely conscripted civilians anyway."

Of course, terrorism has evolved as "The New World Order" has been foisted on global citizens with little or no say about it. The very idea that business interests know what is best for 'us' is paternalistic to say the least. How else can people fight against the domination of world power?

Is the little guy just expected to submit to the bully? Since there is no place to run, some people have chosen to fight. Most mudcatters choose to use their words as weapons, some folks march to protest, some strike, some pray, some attempt to negotiate, some use terror. Which is the most effective?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:36 PM

Hey, I don't know about that. Each side knows what they believe, and does not accept what the other side has to say- Where is the controversy?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:30 PM

Now here is a thread that doesn't have a dog's chance in hell of netting only one post and then falling off the board. No way. Too controversial. Stay away from stuff like this if you want a short, brisk, simple thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:29 PM

"In March 1951 the Iraqi parliament decided to expropriate the property of the Iraqi Jews. Shortly thereafter, most of those Jews who had still remained in Iraq left the country in an organized operation and were brought to Tel-Aviv"

so, where is your demand for the property of those Jews to be returned to them, as you want the supposed property of the Palestinians returned? Or aren't Jews entitled to the same considerations????

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: robomatic
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:20 PM

Hey Carol:

I haven't said this before, and I may not say it again, but I appreciate all the references you dig up whether I agree with 'em or not. I had never heard of the Lavon Affair and on first read, it sounds like it happened.

Robo

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 04 - 04:30 PM

Here's another incidence of Israeli terrorism against Civilians, Larry K, only in this case, they were US civilians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

"The aim of the Israeli Operation Suzannah was to bomb United States installations in Egypt, such as cinemas, and blame Arabs, hoping it would harm Egyptian-American ties. It is also known as the Lavon affair or Faulty Business (esek bish), after the Israeli defence minister who was forced to resign because of the incident, then deeply shocked the Israeli political system by asking to review his case.

The operation was carried out by an Israeli military intelligence unit ("Unit 131" [1]) in 1954, but supposedly not backed by civilian Israeli leadership of that time. The operation, which was commenced in an amateurish fashion, led to the almost immediate identification and capture of the Mossad agents before any lives were taken.

Israeli agents working in Egypt planted bombs in several buildings, including a United States diplomatic facility, and left evidence behind implicating Arabs as the culprits. The ruse would have worked, had not one of the bombs detonated prematurely, allowing the Egyptians to capture and identify one of the bombers, which in turn led to the round up of an Israeli spy ring. Some of the spies were from Israel, while others were recruited from the local Jewish population in Egypt.

The capture of the agents caused outrage among Egyptian authorities. However, there was also great concern among the Israeli public and lead to Israel's first major political scandal."

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 04 - 04:29 PM

Here is the Amazon page for Naeim Giladi's book, Ben Gurion's Scandals: How the Haganah & the Mossad Eliminated Jews:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0964237903/102-3015470-8896144?v=glance

The book you cite CAN be seen as a parallel to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, if it can be shown either that the author is not really a Jew, or that he is a Jew but is being paid to support an anti-Jewish agenda.

Here is a link, again, to the article. The link is in a Jewish owned website. You may not agree with the agenda of the Jews who own the site, but they are Jews, and they conider their agenda to be pro-Jewish.

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/jewsofiraq.htm


Here is some background information about the publication that originally conducted the interview with Mr. Giladi:

""The following article, The Jews of Iraq, is the result of an interview conducted by The Link on March 16, 1998. The article was published in the [?] edition of The Link. The interviewee, Naeim Giladi, an Iraqi Jew and a former Zionist is the author of "Ben Gurion's Scandals: How the Haganah & the Mossad Eliminated Jews".

In his book, Ben Gurion's Scandals, Mr. Giladi discusses the crimes committed by Zionists in their frenzy to import raw Jewish labor. Newly-vacated farmlands had to be plowed to provide food for the immigrants and the military ranks had to be filled with conscripts to defend the illegitimately repossesed lands.

Mr. Giladi couldn't get his book published in Israel, and even in the U.S. he discovered that he could do so only by personally funding the project.

The Giladis, now U.S. citizens, live in New York City. By choice, they no longer hold Israeli citizenship. "I am Iraqi," he told The Link, "born in Iraq, my culture still Iraqi Arabic, my religion Jewish, my citizenship American."

The Link, honored in 1998 by the International Writers and Artists Association, is published by Americans for Middle East Understanding (AMEU)."


Here is some of his biographical information:

"The Giladis, now U.S. citizens, live in New York City. By choice, they no longer hold Israeli citizenship. "I am Iraqi," he told The Link, "born in Iraq, my culture still Iraqi Arabic, my religion Jewish, my citizenship American.""

"They asked me where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do. I was the son of a farmer; I knew allthe problems of the farm, so I volunteered to go to Dafnah, a farming kibbutz in the high Galilee. I only lasted a few weeks. The new immigrants were given the worst of everything. The food was the same, but that was the only thing that everyone had in common. For the immigrants, bad cigarettes, even bad toothpaste. Everything. I left.

Then, through the Jewish Agency, I was advised to go to al-Majdal (later renamed Ashkelon), an Arab town about 9 miles from Gaza, very close to the Mediterranean. The Israeli government planned to turn it into a farmers' city, so my farm background would be an asset there."

We mounted the struggle so tenaciously and received so much publicity that the Israeli government tried to discredit our movement by calling us "Israel's Black Panthers." They were thinking in racist terms, really, in assuming the Israeli public would reject an organization whose ideology was being compared to that of radical blacks in the United States. But we saw that what we were doing was no different than what blacks in the United States were fighting against-segregation, discrimination, unequal treatment. Rather than reject the label, we adopted it proudly. I had posters of Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Nelson Mandela and other civil rights activists plastered all over my office.

"With the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and the Israeli-condoned Sabra and Shatilla massacres, I had had enough of Israel. I became a United States citizen and made certain to revoke my Israeli citizenship. I could never have written and published my book in Israel, not with the censorship they would impose.

Even in America, I had great difficulty finding a publisher because many are subject to pressures of one kind or another from Israel and its friends. I ended up paying $60,000 from my own pocket to publish Ben Gurion's Scandals: How the Haganah & the Mossad Eliminated Jews, virtually the entire proceeds from having sold my house in Israel."

I think that most of these things are verifiable, including his citizenship in Israel on the basis of his being a Jew. And he states (in the interview) that he worked as a Journalist in Israel. That should also be possible to verify.


Here's some of the evidence he gives as a basis for some of his assertions. They are supported by other people besides him:

"Eveland doesn't detail the evidence linking the Zionists to the attacks, but in my book I do. In 1955, for example, I organized in Israel a panel of Jewish attorneys of Iraqi origin to handle claims of Iraqi Jews who still had property in Iraq. One well known attorney, who asked that I not give his name, confided in me that the laboratory tests in Iraq had confirmed that the anti-American leaflets found at the American Cultural Center bombing were typed on the same typewriter and duplicated on the same stenciling machine as the leaflets distributed by the Zionist movement just before the April 8th bombing.

Tests also showed that the type of explosive used in the Beit-Lawi attack matched traces of explosives found in the suitcase of an Iraqi Jew by the name of Yosef Basri. Basri, a lawyer, together with Shalom Salih, a shoemaker, would be put on trial for the attacks in December 1951 and executed the following month. Both men were members of Hashura, the military arm of the Zionist underground. Salih ultimately confessed that he, Basri and a third man, Yosef Habaza, carried out the attacks.

By the time of the executions in January 1952, all but 6,000 of an estimated 125,000 Iraqi Jews had fled to Israel. Moreover, the pro-British, pro-Zionist puppet el-Said saw to it that all of their possessions were frozen, including their cash assets. (There were ways of getting Iraqi dinars out, but when the immigrants went to exchange them in Israel they found that the Israeli government kept 50 percent of the value.) Even those Iraqi Jews who had not registered to emigrate, but who happened to be abroad, faced loss of their nationality if they didn't return within a specified time. An ancient, cultured, prosperous community had been uprooted and its people transplanted to a land dominated by East European Jews, whose culture was not only foreign but entirely hateful to them."

Here is an article by an Israeli Jew whose parents were Iraqi Jews:

http://nswas.com/sfp/articles/shenhav_02.htm

In this article, the author echoes what Mr. Giladi has to say about the experience of Iraqi Mizrahim, and also about the view of some, if not many, Iraqi Mizrahim that the Zionists (with the help of the British) were responsible for creating the circumstances that caused such large numbers of Iraqi Jews to leave Iraq for Israel:

"...Tough gatekeepers stand at the entrance deciding which literature on the Mizrahim can be introduced to the Hebrew reader and which literature will remain outside. Other examples of untranslated work that makes the Mizrahi - Palestinian connection are Na'im Giladi's book Ben Gurion's Scandals, and Shlomo Svirsky's book The Seeds of Inequality.

I began to dig in the archives in order to get a better understanding of the story of the bombs in the Baghdad synagogue. This is a story that many people speak about but no one really knows. In the course of research I came across a fascinating story that ties in to the property of Iraqi Jews. The Zionist movement began to pay attention to Mizrahi Jewry in the years 1941 – '42. It was then that Ben Gurion introduced his "one million plan". Anticipating that many Jews will be annihilated by Nazi persecution causing demographic problems for the Zionist movement, Ben Gurion decided that a plan must be introduced based on Jews from Arab lands.

In 1950 an agreement was reached with Iraq's Prime Minister Nuri Sa'id, as a result of which a law was passed allowing Jews to forfeit their Iraqi citizenship and leave the country without their property. Of the 120,000 Jews in Iraq, approximately 1,500 registered to leave the country.

Around this time, working undercover as representatives of Solel Boneh, Israeli Mossad agents began underground activities in Iraq. All of the sudden there was an explosion in the Mas'uda Shem Tov Synagogue and immediately afterwards 24,000 Jews registered to leave the country. Abbas Shiblak describes in his book how each time there was a fall in registration, another bomb went off followed by another mass exodus. Five of these bombs did the job. In March 1951 the Iraqi parliament decided to expropriate the property of the Iraqi Jews. Shortly thereafter, most of those Jews who had still remained in Iraq left the country in an organized operation and were brought to Tel-Aviv."

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Nerd
Date: 19 May 04 - 02:57 PM

CarolC, thanks. We keep cross-posting!

I agree that it would be speculation to say whether his previous family members had been paid. Also speculation to imagine what "close to" means in real terms. Or whether those previous generations did anything for the synagogue. etc, etc.

Don't get me wrong; it's nice that Jews and Muslims are sometimes friends, even in Iraq. (Of course, many Jews and Muslims here in the US know this is possible, because many of us have such friends.) But such individual friendships don't eliminate oppression and hatred from others, or institutional discrimination as I pointed out in Libya, so they may not have any large-scale social effects.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 02:51 PM

"There would be no refugee problem if Israel had not chased those who became refugees from their villages (often at gunpoint... see the Nakba link in my 18 May 04 - 09:21 PM post)."

And there would be no refugee problem if those who became refuges were welcomed by the populations in the area, as the Jewish refugees fromt the Arab countries were welcomed in Israel.

"If the problem did not exist, there would be no problem" ( my quotes) does not offer a solution. History HAS occurred- one can either acknowledge that, or not. If one chooses to act as if there has been no past, one will have no future. Why are you not fighting for the rights of ALL people to live without terrorist threats?


"The refugees are Israel's responsibility and no one else's. Trying to foist responsiblity for the problem on the governments of other countries solves nothing."

I disagree. They are the world's responsibility. But the countries in the region that could help have a vested interest in keeping them miserable and fomenting terrorist acts, and the ( inevitable) Israeli response. Why do you think that the Palestinians were the ONLY group to support Saddam H. in 1991? They were effectively slave labor in Kuwait.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Nerd
Date: 19 May 04 - 02:44 PM

There is an unfortunate lack of reflection on the part of Americans today when it comes to labeling people as "terrorists" and thus as "inhuman." Indeed, one of the interesting things about today's rhetoric is the way "terrorist" has changed meaning. Back in Bolshevik days, people described themselves frankly as terrorists. It meant that, since they did not have the resources to fight against armies in a conventional way, killing thousands of people on each side, they had to make each killing count for as much as possible. Adding terror to the equation, by killing five people one could have the psychological impact of having killed a whole company of soldiers. The idea was actually to preserve life, among other things. (In a country where the military was overwhelmingly made up of conscripts, the theory was that killing civilians was really not much different than killing soldiers, who were merely conscripted civilians anyway.) For this reason, Ben Gurion and other Jewish leaders DID admit that they had been terrorists; the word had not yet taken its current turn.

Interestingly, depending on your definition, you can argue that everyone from the Minute Men in American History to the Boer Commandos were essentially terrorists. It does not necessarily mean the kinds of depraved acts we are seeing today. Nor is it helpful when the government tries to paint peaceful protestors or those who merely destroy property as "eco-terrorists"; that fits neither the old nor the new definition of terrorism. It's becoming an all-purpose accusation used to strip suspects of their rights and their humanity.

I don't condone what Arafat is saying, by the way...as you can see from the above, I am moderately pro-Zionist. But he did say "terrorize" and not "murder" or even "torture." Remember, all the bible-thumpers out there think we should all be "God-Fearing" people (in other words, "terrorized.") So I think it would be germane to find out what "terrorize" means in a Koranic context, even what the actual Arabic word is, since "terror" has connotations now that it cannot have had when the Koran was written...

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 04 - 02:39 PM

For beardedbruce:

The Palestinians have suffered under the repressive Arab policies of not allowing them to settle elsewhere, and keeping them as second ( or lower) class non-citizens.

There would be no refugee problem if Israel had not chased those who became refugees from their villages (often at gunpoint... see the Nakba link in my 18 May 04 - 09:21 PM post). The refugees are Israel's responsibility and no one else's. Trying to foist responsiblity for the problem on the governments of other countries solves nothing. And it does not in any way address the problem of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. Those people are being kept by the government of Israel as non-citizens with no status as human beings whatever.

Nerd:

I'll have some more information about Naeim Giladi in a little while, but I wanted to address this one now...

In fact, it is tended by one man, (not "Iraqi Muslims"). That man is paid to do so by the remaining Jews, who have not left.

The man who tends the synagogue is being paid, but the article also says this: "but his family has been close to the synagogue's leaders for generations". It does not specify that those prior generations were being paid. Any speculation that they were would be just that... speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 May 04 - 02:38 PM

'Guilt by association' is a very bad rhetorical trick.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 04 - 02:21 PM

Hitler was certainly justified because everyone knew for a fact that Jews were at fault.    People like Carol C. who support these positions are responsible for millions of people getting killed.

Very insidious, but not too clever. You can't link me with people who support the acts of Hitler by putting those sentences next to each other. We both know that there is no justification for what Hitler did. But I will say that your rhetoric sounds very reminiscent of Hitler's rhetoric in tone and substance. You're taking Hitler's basic premises and substituting the words "islamic fundamentalists" for "Jews". It's that sort of mindset that causes the slaughter of millions of innocent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 19 May 04 - 02:07 PM

Chasing your tail again CarolC - keep going, love watch you verbally running round in circles - getting absolutely nowhere.

Sooner Arafat has gone the better off for all concerned - he has been a complete and utter waste of space

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 04 - 01:49 PM

Larry K, you are ignoring the undeniable fact that the State of Israel was founded upon acts of terrorism, and that after the establishment of the state, those very same terrorists who brought about its existance then became its government. So if this statement by you, "Terrorists have no rights. You cannot negotiate with a terrorist. All terrorists must be eliminated" is correct, I guess you'll need to get rid of the government of Israel while you're at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 19 May 04 - 09:57 AM

Every terrorist, maniac, serial killer, pedofile, dictator, king, emperor, suicide bomber, and extremest believe what they are doing is correct.   They are enabled by liberals who justify their behavior.   The actions of terrorists are justified (at least understood) because of their suffering at the oprression of the West.    Greenpeace is justfied because we are ruining our environment.    Hitler was certainly justified because everyone knew for a fact that Jews were at fault.    People like Carol C. who support these positions are responsible for millions of people getting killed.

Not in the same way as Al Queda, or Sadaam Hussain.   Closer to Neville Chamberlain where appeasement led to the death of millions in World War II.    We are in World War III against islamic fundamentalists, but most people are too buy watching American Idol to notice.   In the war on terror they expect it to be completed in an hour sitcom or at least by the end of the season.

Terrorists have no rights. You cannot negotiate with a terrorist. All terrorists must be eliminated.   In the middle east there is no free speech or free thought.    People are taught in schools to hate the USA and support the terrorists.    It is no surprise that they do.   Did you read the quote in the paper today "It is the duty of all muslims to support Jihad"    Arafat funds terrorism.   Absolutely proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. The Palestinians were dancing in the street on 9/11.    They have shown no ability to live in peace. Isreal is the only democracy in the middle east and I think the third or 4th longest democracy in the history of the world.   I know that some of you will label this as racist propaganda. Of course, if I said it in any other middle east country I would be beheaded.   And than I would sound like Carol C. or Jack the Sailor.

Jack- that was sarcasm.   I am sorry you didn't get it.   Next time I will try to type much slower so even yooouuu caaaannn uuunnnddderrssstttaaand iiiitttttt.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:21 PM

Ok. I'm going to try to answer everybody as fast as I can, but don't expect responses right away.

Re: the Olympics. Well, from my perspective, 1972 is fairly recent as compared to say, 1948, the year of the Nakba, but you're right. They were not suicide bombers.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 04 - 07:34 PM

You're JEWISH Justa Picker!?!

That's incredible! I was absolutely sure that you were a white supremacist.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST,politicked out
Date: 18 May 04 - 06:47 PM

Get a room, please

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 04 - 06:29 PM

Honor killing. What a concept.

Any woman, even a rape victim, who wasn't a virgin on her wedding day should be very thankful they weren't born in Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 04 - 06:26 PM

One of the things that I most dislike about Palestinian society is the attitude toward women. Unmarried women, even young girls who have been raped, are subject to "honor killing" by their families and Arafat's Palestinian Authority will do nothing to stop it.

Article from World & I Journal.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 04 - 04:03 PM

..... as I guessed

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 04 - 03:42 PM

Hey people:

The original comment about pigs was not saying that CarolC was one, just that argueing with her had some similarity to the described arguement. Justa has no need to make this personnal.

I disagree with CarolC on a lot of things, but she is entitled to try to make her points, and to shoot down whatever points she disagrees with- I will fight to give her the same priviledges that I would want for myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 04 - 03:31 PM

As if that makes a difference

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Justa Picker
Date: 18 May 04 - 03:29 PM

No. I'm signing my name GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 May 04 - 03:23 PM

'before last' it is now.

Carol,

when you did look up the site about human shields you could easily have also found a condemnation of the use of a 11(?) year old boy as a convenient and low danger (though not for him) means of transport for explosives recently. If that is not a variant of the human shields tactic I don't know what that is.

I have seldom objections to your links as such, but why do I get the impression that you only select those stories that have a certain slant?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 May 04 - 03:16 PM

Am I to read the last contribution in the sense that Carol is casting pearls (of wisdom) before swines?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 04 - 03:07 PM

Back to the old days, Michael?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Justa Picker
Date: 18 May 04 - 03:01 PM

On behalf of all the Jewish members and guests that frequent this forum Carol, I have only have 2 words for you.


Oink
Oink.


Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Nerd
Date: 18 May 04 - 02:40 PM

Yes, CarolC, I missed that part. Sorry! After my own post, I saw yours, and leapt right to the link.

Still, it shows that you are always willing to believe (and repeat) even obviously false assertions if they cast Muslims in a positive light as regards their relations with Jews.

The book you cite CAN be seen as a parallel to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, if it can be shown either that the author is not really a Jew, or that he is a Jew but is being paid to support an anti-Jewish agenda. I'm not actually making either of these claims, I'm just saying that the book's purporting to be written by a Jew doesn't mean anything. Personally, I think it's more a question of "freakshow politics," as I said above. The anti-Jewish lobby have found one Jew willing to blame Zionists, and they are promoting him as if he were representative of the community as a whole. He is not.

As to your claim that the Arab jews and Sephardim feel oppressed in Israel, fine. Jews in the US faced discrimination, and we still do, but it is much better than the places we left behind. We may occasionally make disgruntled remarks about the way we have been treated (my dad had a hard time getting into universities, etc), but that doesn't mean we'd be better off anywhere else.

Say what you want about Israel, they ARE dedicated to improving the lot of Jews. They are the country that airlifted starving Ethiopians out of a famine simply because they were Jews. Do you really think they are systematically opressing other Jews worse than Arab countries did? Please!

Any response to the multiple firsthand narratives of oppression in Tunisia, Libya and Egypt?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: mg
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:47 PM

It is a complex situation. Starting with the fact that the Palestinians were royally truely screwed. And I until recently did not understand what I now think is their basic wish..not for a Palestinian state, but the gut-level desire for their own family property to be returned. One female Palestinian spokeswoman finally got through to me on this. I do not think most lands can be returned, but I think a token number should be, and there should be at least some historical villages, maybe turned into something like our Williamsburg, inadequate as that is, so they can go and remember and visit. At this point, tokens are maybe all that is possible, along, as I have said before, with massive immigration to relieve the population pressure, much closer supervision by U.N. of what is taught in the schools....many more people-to-people events..like us going to orphanages etc..which I would love to do...massive training of the young people in medical skills and manufacturing of small items, like eyeglasses say, for third world...perhaps drug manufacturing...I don't know. Whenever you take farmers, villagers, and enclose them like they have been, there are going to be troubles. Look at the famine Irish in the tenements...

If you meet Palestinians, I guarantee you will love them. The ones I have met, granted not a random sample, are delightful, but very sad, people. They do remind me of the Irish..similar problems, basically very good-hearted, but can and have go the way of terrorism and violence....I am sitting in an office formerly run by a Palestinian refugee, in a town until recently run by his son....

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:45 PM

Nerd, didn't you see the part where I said (re: the synagogue) that I had heard or misremembered? Please read that part again.

I've read the Protocols. My take on them is that they were written by Monarchists who were using the Jews as a "boogy man" to scare the peasantry into not supporting any movements that would give them (the peasantry) democracy. The real agenda (from my perspective), was to control the behavior of the peasants. The Jews in this case were convenient scapegoats, as they have been at various times during much of the last several centuries.

What I see happening now, is that the Muslims and Arabs are the new scapegoats. Todays "powers that be" are using them in the exact same way that the Monarchists who wrote the Protocols were using the Jews.

The piece that I quoted that was written by the Iraqi Jew cannot in any way be equated with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:40 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST,Larry K - PM
Date: 18 May 04 - 11:14 AM

Carol C.-   When I read your comments about not blaming all the Palestinians for the acts of a the (small, tiny, miniscule, minute, decimal dust) few Palestinan terrorists I saw the light.   Therefore, as a Jew I would like to take this opportunity to apologize for all the Isreali suicide bombers.   Oh- I forgot.   There haven't been any.

But there have been lots of homocide bombers flying Helicoptors and fighters jets.

Ok- So I would like to apologize for all the Isreali airplane hijackers.   Oh- I forgot.   There haven't been any.

See above.. Why hijack them when you can aleady use aircraft as weapons and sleep in a warm bed afterwards?

OK- So I would like to apologize for all the Isreali beheadings and rape rooms.   Oh- I forgot.   There haven't been any.

apparantly you have forgotton the exploding cellphones and the bulldozing of homes. Who needs a "room" when you can rape a whole community in full public view.

OK- So I would like to apologize for the weapons of mass destruction used by Israel on its own people and and on it's enemies.   Oh- I forgot. Israel has never used a WMD.

Israel has never used a WMD....yet. Is there anyone on earth who doubts that they would?

I would point out that all of the above have been done by the other countries in the middle east, but you would accuse me of being a racist- so I can't. Oh- I forgot.   You already have.

You are accusing all of the other countries in the middle east. You are a racist.    

So could you please explain how the Goldie Meir quote about loving your own children being more important than hating your enemy makes me a racist.   This may be a first.   A folkie condems me for choosing love and peace over hate and violence.   Congratulations on being a trend setter.

You obviously rank hating your enemy, and his people and his country pretty high in your list of values. You are a racist. Congratulations, admitting it is your first step on the road to recovery

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:37 PM

The fact is that you will find far more testimonials from Jews who say they were oppressed.

And from what I've been reading, the ones who migrated to Israel feel that they are being oppressed now in Israel. Sounds like they can't win for losing.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Nerd
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:34 PM

Ha! Looking back over the thread, I notice that CarolC missed beardedbruce's point about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. CarolC's response was "but this account was written by a Jew." Beardedbruce brought up the PEZ precisely because they, too, claim to have been written by Jews. His point, I believe, was "prove it."

But CarolC, to call you on some of your distortions, on the synagogue issue you have dissembled mightily. You originally wrote:

" There is a Synagogue in Iraq that has been very carefully and lovingly cared for and tended by Iraqi Muslims since its Jewish congregants left, in the hope that some day the Jewish community will return to it and it will be ready for them if they do."

In fact, it is tended by one man, (not "Iraqi Muslims"). That man is paid to do so by the remaining Jews, who have not left. No one, least of all the Jews, hopes that the Jewish community will return. The man your article cites as the Jewish Community leader would leave himself, but his father is too old and frail to travel. Your original characterization of this thus story contained three distortions:

1) the congregation has left

2) there is more than one Muslim caring for the synagogue.

3) The Iraqi muslims hope the Jews will return and are keeping the synagogue nice for them.

Your post also strongly suggested that the Muslims were doing this out of charity (after all, if the Jews had left, who was there to pay them?) In fact, the caretaker does it because, in his own words, it's his job.

So big deal, this only proves that a Jew can pay a Muslim to be nice to him, as log as there's no danger of a Jewish community with any real power or protections!

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:31 PM

" The Palestinians suffered terribly under the thumb of the government of Israel for many decades before the first suicide bombing ever took place. "

Yes, in such things as the Munich Olympics, they expected to escape.

The Palestinians have suffered under the repressive Arab policies of not allowing them to settle elsewhere, and keeping them as second ( or lower) class non-citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:27 PM

So, Justa Picker, re: some of your comments on other threads... after you've finished killing all of the Muslims and the Arabs, who will you go after next? Am I and my family on the list?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:21 PM

Larry K, I notice you are being pretty selective with regard to which kinds of human rights abuses you are willing to use as criteria for whom you choose to criticize. I have posted information about quite a few acts of terrorism, crimes against humanity, and war crimes that the government of Israel and those who were fighting for the creation of the State of Israel have committed over the decades, right in this thread. And I can provide plenty more of them if you want, including the use of chemical WMD against Palestinians.

So could you please explain how the Goldie Meir quote about loving your own children being more important than hating your enemy makes me a racist.   This may be a first.   A folkie condems me for choosing love and peace over hate and violence.   Congratulations on being a trend setter.

I'm having a very difficult time seeing how you could possibly be choosing love and peace over hate and violence if you support what the government of Israel is doing to the Palestinians. It's racist to suppose that it is hatred of Israel and not the desire for freedom and the fight for basic human rights that motivates the Palestinians. The people who live in the Occupied Territories (West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem) have no basic human rights. They do not have the status of human being to the government of Israel. This is why they are fighting.

If you only condemn the Palestinian resistance, but you ignore the flagrant violations of human rights by the government of Israel (and the terrorists who brought about its existance), then you must be doing it because you don't see Palestinians as human beings. That's a pretty good definition of racism in my book.

Our disagreement is who that is- I think it is the people blowing up innocent children and civilians. I cannot tell from your posts who you think it is- The Global Ashkenazi economy, I guess.

Very funny, beardedbruce. A line like that one suggests to me that you are not really interested in serious discussion. I think, as do some of the members and former members of the IDF from whom I provided quotes in one of my earlier posts, that if the government of Israel wanted peace, they could have it in an instant. But they don't want peace. What they want is more land. And they'll use any pretext they can find (or invent) to get it, including treating the Palestinians like animals. It serves their interest to keep the Palestinians fighting, because it helps to persuade people like you and Larry K that Palestinians are not human and so therefore don't deserve to be treated like humans.

It would be useful to keep in mind that the practice of killing civilians by Palestinians is a fairly recent phenomenon. The Palestinians suffered terribly under the thumb of the government of Israel for many decades before the first suicide bombing ever took place.