BS: Faith

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 07:05 PM

Hey. Bill:

Good for you! I enjoyed your "rant" as you refer to it on another thread. Nothing like airing it out. Just as a one sentence point.
Faith isn't superior to knowledge because it is not subject to proof: it's neither superior, or inferior (in my eye.) By definition, faith is something that can't be proven. (Sorry, two sentences..)

I also have a lot of faith in the scientific method (let me have that one, Bill.. :-) Many of the wonderful blessings (things we appreciate) in our lives are from science. If it wasn't for science, we'd be chiseling our comments on stone instead of on this keyboard.
And what about all of the advancements in health care? I give praise for them, because family and friends have had their lives SAVED by science. As I mentioned earlier, I have seen dramatic healings of health that defy explanation. Doctors can not give one. You can just accept that as inexplicable occurences or a spiritual healing because of faith.

Yahoo for science! Like faith, it has it's malpractice. That doesn't detract from it's basic value, any more than I feel like the lunatic Christians (and Muslims and other religions) don't invalidate the faith.

We got no problem on science, Bill

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 07:00 PM

Those neat things aren't happening to you, Bill, I think largely because they are not things that you are looking for or personally very connected to. They are not particularly germaine to your specific destiny. People generally have a tendency to be drawn to stuff that IS germaine to their destiny, and not to stuff that isn't.

But there are exceptions, probably, to that...now and then. :-)

The Universe is kind and generous, in that it usually provides people with more or less what they are looking for...either consciously or subconsciously.

Lots of neat things don't happen to me either. I don't get a date with Winona Ryder. I don't seem to win prizes or lotteries or anything like that either. This is probably connected at least partly to the fact that I'm basically quite uninterested in the whole proposition of winning prizes and lotteries in the first place, and almost never bother looking anywhere to win something for nothing.

Likewise, I gather that you are basically uninterested in, let's say, tarot, psychic healing, interplanetary visitors, and so on. If so, why would destiny send them your way?

Follow?

There's room in this world for all belief systems, so just pick what suits you best and enjoy it, but resist the impulse to quickly and automatically debunk the others. It's a kind of chauvinism in a lot of cases when people do that.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 06:43 PM

Gotta agree about the Hubble images. Man, they are beautiful.

I suppose in my belief system that I find a comfort in a Creator. I've always thought of G-d as a sorta 'sum total of all law', but I couldn't really define that to anyone's satisfaction. I have a scientist friend who thinks G-d is an unnecessary thing in his life. I find G-d to be necessary in mine. We are still best friends. Science means being able to make predictions with 100% accuracy. Faith may mean the same to people. I can predict with 100% accuracy that I will believe in G-d tomorrow. Someone will say that's not scientific. We'd both be right.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 06:09 PM

"sounds a bit like the theory of karma/reincarnation to me."
it DO?..wowee...it don't to me!*grin*

Little Hawk...it was not meant to be a complete list- ;>) I assumed you could imagine some of the rest! And, of course, my 'list' was not meant to BE debated indivdually...the whole point was that ---aww...you know the point. I suspects you am just bear-baiting now, to see me wave my arms.
Now it's YOUR turn to explain why, if all those neat things are happening, they don't happen to me...either it ain't fair, or it aint true! *grin* (I don't see auras, either!) But I DO see the amazing images from the Hubble telescope....that will have to keep me going till some aliens or ghosts or telepathic signals get through to ME!

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 05:32 PM

every action has its equal and opposite reaction..

sounds a bit like the theory of karma/reincarnation to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 05:29 PM

That demonic possession thing makes me want to vomit green pea soup or put my head on a swivel or something. Reincarnation is the ultimate in recycling. Palmistry: the scientific study of palm trees.

Poltergeist

Crop Circles

Pyramids

Sacred Geometry

Puzeldorfinghart

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: pdq
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 05:26 PM

...another possible reply...

"God made Darwin"

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 05:24 PM

Moving on...

astrology: see my comment about tarot

psychic healing: see my comment about tarot

witchcraft & magic: see my comment about tarot

demonic possession: A nasty business. I advise you to avoid situations involving it.

Phrenology: Oooo! Ya hit me with a new one. Hang on. Gotta look it up. Wait...

Ah. The shape of the skull affecting general disposution, etc. Well, that's intriguing. I have no particular opinion about it at this point. I neither support it nor deny it.

Reincarnation: as spiritual theories go, this one has far more circumstantial and experiential evidence to support it than many others...but for all I know, Bill, you may still be on your first embodiment as a human. If so, you have progressed at lightning speed, and are probably a potential genius who will soon alter the destiny of all mankind!

palmistry - see my remarks on tarot

Got any more?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 05:17 PM

Telepathy? I knew you were gonna say that, LH!

I like much about the 'scientific method'. And faith is not something I can argue about. I have faith that the sun will rise. Science agrees with that. One day it will nova, and science won't have to agree or disagree.

When I'm asked about creationism versus Darwinism, I say "God made it and Darwin explained it."

Because I don't argue faith, I don't find myself in disagreement with science. Faith is something I know I have. However, science could never prove or disprove that. I have faith that I couldn't, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 05:04 PM

Bill - Ghosts? No problem. You just have to actually encounter one. :-) You should have picked a much more outrageous example as a counterpoint to science. Keep thinking on that...

Tarot? Works as well (or as poorly) as any other system of divination, depending on the practitioner's intuitive ability and honesty. There are phony tarot readers, mediocre tarot readers, and excellent tarot readers.

Ouija board? Interesting. I don't recommend getting into it too much though. There are far better things to do with one's time.

Telepathy? Happens all the time. Some people are better at it than others.

Alternative medicine? Everything's an alternative to something else. If you call it "alternative" that's usually cos you're not too acustumed to it yourself yet.

Alien landings? Don't knock 'em if you haven't seen 'em. :-)

Messiahs? Prophets? Why knock 'em if you ain't met 'em?

God, so many chuckles out of one subject. I love it.

Reality is not founded upon competition, and none of these things are in competition with science as far as I am concerned. They're just interesting parts of the larger picture that is Life.

Why set up some kind of artificial battle for top place between conventional science (which is highly useful) and a ton of other interesting things?

If you decided to marry someone, Bill, is it partly because you have faith in her? I hope so. That is a type of faith worth having, and it's got nothing to do one way or another with science, but it's a real and valuable factor in relationships.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 04:45 PM

I have been shaking my head sadly reading some of the skewed opinions about science and the scientific method.

*Science*, properly done, is fine --*Scientists* are often dishonest, self-serving and careless with their reasoning, just like some theologians and dabblers in the occult and . The scientific method, properly understood and applied, does approach truth and fact. Properly applied, it MUST give us new and different answers as we learn more. Phlogiston was once a pretty good idea, as was Lamark's theory of the inheritance of acquired charistics, but both have given way to more enlightened theories! And no doubt even these will be refined. This is a FEATURE, not a problem!

   Those whose ideas of 'faith' and 'belief' includes the notion that not being subject to proof is a virtue and somehow makes them exempt from criticism are kidding themselves. They stamp the strangest ideas with the word 'valid', without asking what 'valid' means, and how, if at all, it is related to 'true'. (No, not YOU, of course, YOU wouldn't hold any REALLY silly beliefs like those poor souls who committed group suicide at the approach of the comet!)

Can those of you who believe in astrology, psychic healing, alternative medicine, witchcraft & magic, Tarot, Ouija boards, demonic possession, alien landings, telepathy, Phrenology, Palmistry, reincarnation, and various versions of spiritual forces manifested by various Messiahs and Prophets really say that your claims are just as good as those of properly done science?

Or, look at the list above....do YOU believe in ALL of those? And why not? If Tarot is 'valid', why not ghosts? If they are not subject to the usual tests and scrutiny demanded by good science, then why exclude any of them? One of the tenets of logic is that "from a false premise, anything follows", but I see so many claims that, when examined, presuppose accepting something at the beginning that is, by definition, not testable. THEN the claimant will turn around and assert that "science is no better, because it is constantly having to change its theories and revise its answers"....as if the two situations were comparable! *sigh*

I realize I sound like I'm trying to assert that none of the more 'esoteric' notions I mentioned can be true, but this is not what I'm getting at.....I just bristle at those who need to put down science in order to justify their own NON-scentific ideas.

Sure, some of those arcane things I don't believe in might be true/possible/valid...call me when you can give me some idea of HOW they can work...and if I experience any of them, I'll call YOU with my best guess as to what happened, and strive for some sort of repeatibility and external verification before I state that it 'really' happened. I am aware of the amazing complexity of the human brain, and I know that it is certainly possible to have feelings and 'experiences' and 'memories' that may have been created internally by synapses firing in funny ways. (...like dreams of your great-aunt on a blue unicycle throwing marshmallows at chimps!)

We have had some excellent discussion on this thread, part of which really pointed out the difficulties in agreeing on the language and terminology needed to even debate the issues. I'd hate to see come down again to just a lot of assertions that "I know what I know". Believe what you will, just don't knock science by pointing at 'some' bad scientists.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 02:18 PM

It should be pointed out for those who adore logic and its claim on purity that the relationships are as follows:

all scientists are WOMISTs
Not all WOMISTs are scientists

These statements include the implicit assumption that a scientist believes in the physics-based model of scientific enquiry (replicable results, double-blind experiments, statistical meaning, etc.)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 01:41 PM

Come on Amos, you're scaring me: I hear a theramin soundtrack rading your threads.

As for science, anyone who thinks it is pure and objective is nuts. (Or did I overstate that?) When I was at the University of Wisconsin, I worked in the Primate Laboratory there. It was, and still is the leading research facility for Animal Pyschology. When I was there, I saw such blatant predetermination of results that it cast doubt on everything they were doing at that time. The scientific "conclusions" that resulted from some experiments could have bee written before the government funding. There used to be, and perhaps still is, and annual award for the most ridiculous, unneccesary governement funded research. The applications to human psychology or medicine were very far fetched. One I remember was a very heavily funded project to try to determine why penguin's feet don't get cold. I can see it now... "Penguin" boots now on sale at WalMart.

And of course, the commercial potential of scientific research is integral to much of it. All the research on alternate energy to replace our dependence on oil is just an oil stain on the road of progress.

I don't find intellectual activity and faith to be mutual exclusive.
We were given a mind to use, just as I believe we were given a deep-seated conscience and awareness of something greater than ourselves.

Most of all, you can adapt scientific discoveries to your own, pre-conceived beliefs, like everything else. I read repeatedly that more and more scientists are becoming convinved that there is a God. I wonder who conducts the poll? Personally, I'd consider that great news, but I have no reason to believe that it's true, and it would have no effect on my beliefs. Science will never prove the existence (or the lack of) God.

Back when I was in graduate school, a friend of mine was very impressed that I had discovered a new speciaes of fossil snail. Whoopdeedo! He believed that adding that one new bit of knowledge was of far greater value than a lifetime of healing people that a physician would do. And he was dead serious about it.

Who says science isn't a religion?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 01:21 PM

"...but we still talk about "Donning" our little hats to defend us against the mind-control beams of the WOMISTs"

This is why it is so important to remove the beam from your own eye before removing a speck from your brother's eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 01:04 PM

In the old days, poeple used to wear a similar device -- cloth caps with gold thread in them -- before foil was invented. These were called pacems, and one of the pop hits of the day was a song called Donna Nobis Pacem, about the pacem belonging to a teenage girl (Donna Nobis) who used yellow thread to save money and was snatched in plain sight by an alien cloud as a result. The story is long forgotten, but we still talk about "Donning" our little hats to defend us against the mind-control beams of the WOMISTs.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 11:29 AM

oh my gosh, amos.

I just did a google search and you are right......WOMISTs are everywhere! I think I shall join you in the donning of the foil skullcaps.

(why "don"ning? Who exactly was "Don"? which "Don" and what did Don have to do with putting things on? ......speaking of "put ons")

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Two_bears
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 11:22 AM

I think that scientific method is valid and, in a pragmatic way, it is generally trustworthy. But science has shown to disprove its previous conclusions SO often that it should be obvious that, though scientific method is valid, the conclusions drawn from it are as fluid as faith and belief.
----

That would be a good strategy IF scientists had an open mind, and strength of conviction to stand and report things out of the mainstream.

Scientists are so afraid of being ridiculed by their peers and loosing their finding they will NOT stand and report the truth.

I would suggest for you to buy od check out the book "Forbidden Archaeology" that book documents discoveries that have been burried, or hidden in storage.

Aloha nui loa

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 11:22 AM

Right --- as such it is the world's most popular cult.

Actually it is a subdivision of the larger and older religion, Worshippers of Matter in Space Time (WOMIST). WOMIST has been around since the dawn of our species and possibly much longer. WOMISTians are everywhere. Your own kin or neighbor could even be one and not let on. There are ways of telling, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 10:27 AM

I agree with you Amos. I just happen to think that the line is in a different place than most here seem to have drawn it. I guess what I'm saying (in addition to the above) is that what we refer to as "science" is not, strictly speaking, "science". Still it is given unassailable status as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 10:20 AM

Science certainly does not mak faith obsolete, JH -- couldn't agree more. But it moves the place of faith from an incantation of superstitions to something closer to the soul itself, perhaps less likely to spawn words.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 10:03 AM

Said another way (from my previous post), we are so enamored with the technological advances and knowledge explosion provided by science that we seem to have given science "done deal" credit for having already solved the puzzle that is the universe. Our faith is absolute and "religious" (maybe blindly religious) in the potential of science to answer all the questions of the universe.

But Science as a body has acquired a sort of "high priest" status in our modern culture. Very much like the magician/priest of old who held a few tricks (and often a language) secret so that it could continue to derive its power by maintaining popular ignorance, science maintains power by the inherent compexity of data……all the while disguising that it is not the data in question……..it is the conclusions drawn that makes its own "science" not actually science.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 09:14 AM

The kind of faith which is a trust without reservation that brings joy to the believer is a wonderful thing.
It need not be a matter of proof or evidence arguements any more than observable facts need to be worshipped.

There is one supreme evidence of faith that goes beyond any catagory of religion or secular definition and that is...
caring.

Caring is the single most important and redemtive quality in a human being.

For an artist or lay person alike, caring is obvious in their work as it is with its absence.

No matter how a person comes to express their caring is a beautiful thing. There may be people who need conscience to be taught. If that is in a religious format they will be better for it. If it is in a secular format they will be better off for learning. I would hope that it is a rarity for a person to have no inate conscience but evidence in the world may hold a contrary viewpoint. Perhaps mortality itself is to blame when a rich person still can never have enough wealth to stave off death.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 09:02 AM

I strongly disgree that science does, or ever will make faith obsolete.

I think that scientific method is valid and, in a pragmatic way, it is generally trustworthy. But science has shown to disprove its previous conclusions SO often that it should be obvious that, though scientific method is valid, the conclusions drawn from it are as fluid as faith and belief.

I think that another thing that confuses this issue is that we live in a time when we have utterly confused technological advancement with intellect. But that's just not true. For every "forward" step in technologial advancement (knowledge), we take a step backwards as well -- we lose touch with the previous (still valid) technology.

A concrete example might be that there are fewer and fewer people who understand the inner workings of their automobiles. It used to be common to know how to work on you own car -- now, with advanced technology we've had a huge gain in convenience -- but an equally huge loss in general knowledge.

Many of us here understand this concept when it strikes closer to home -- alternative medicine. I'm betting that most here have found usefulness in that which "science" has discarded -- acupuncture, chiropractic, herbal, and other alternatives.... Valid "technologies" which "pure science" eschews.

We are absolutely convinced that we are advacing to the point of an unnecessary faith - that's why it is so easy to hold religion with the general contempt it regularly recieves here on the mudcat. It(religion -- and therefore, by implication, faith) is percieved as the primative, vestigal remains of once functionally usefull opiate for the (ignorant)masses. That is certainly the implication when one asserts that we will intellect ourselves to the point of faith being unnecessary.

Also, there is science and then there is science. I don't believe that science is nearly as pure as it would appear that most here do. Just as I can see the horrible flaw in science being ruled by the church's whims as it was in the day of Galileo, Science, as a practical matter is falling into the same unscientific flaw -- that of being presuppositional in its approach. It's just that now science is just as strongly rationalist/materialist/natural in its presuppositions as it ever was religious in the presuppositions that tainted its method in the middle ages.

That may be okay to the extent that it continues (valuably) to uncover more and more about the natural universe by always digging deeper with the assumption that if we keep on trying we can understand everything by physical explanation. But the reason it is arrogant is because of how far down the time line of understanding I think we imagine ourselves. I think we think we're actually knocking on the door of a unified material/natural world view. In reality, my guess is that we are not only NOT knocking on the door....we aren't even on the sidewalk leading up to the door. Again, that may be because we assume technological advancement is far more valuable to our understanding of the universe than it actually is. It also (if we were able to check that presuppositional, naturalist approach to science) just may be that we aren't even knocking on the right door.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 06:36 AM

I've been writing like crazy to try to put together my thoughts on this subject...maybe I'll be finished enough to post by tomorrow! Really thought-provoking thread, Jerry. Thank you!..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Two_bears
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 11:54 PM

I have faith in my ability to shape my own destiny.
-----

Dianavan; Faith is only PART of what is needed. You also need to support that faith with universal lifeforce energy.

I say this from personal experience because I have changed my future MANY times.

30 years even I did not even like me, and was on the short path to being put UNDER the jail. Today I am a kind caring compassionate energetic healer.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 09:40 PM

Great subject for a thread. I derive faith from a number of sources...

I have faith in life as an experience that is full of meaning, not accidental. I have faith in the Universe as a creation that is full of meaning, likewise, and not accidental.

I have faith in my own worth, goodness and the basic goodness of Life. I have faith in my intelligence and my abilities to see me through.

I have faith that there is a higher purpose behind this existence.

I have faith that death is not the end, but a new beginning...that Life never ends.

I have faith in a loving God, but to define that God would be to define all of Life and existence itself. An unlimited subject, in other words. I don't have time for it at the moment.

Will get back to this tomorrow and read the rest of the postings.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Cruiser
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 09:26 PM

My concept of Faith verses faith (and belief) is here:

25 Dec 03 4:00pm

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 08:39 AM

Yeah, good post, d, and thank God (pun very much intended) Faith can not be proven or it would lose those wonderful spiritual and magical qualities. Same goes for love.

(And, top of the day to you, Brother Jerry. And just a slight drift but this is "Appresiation Day" down at Arhie Edward Barber Shop and we will be honoring all the older bluesmen that frequent it. Ahhh, speaking of Faith and in this case, blessings...)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 08:26 AM

Wonderful post, dianavan! Faith can't be proven. If it was proven it would be knowledge, not faith. That does not mean that you have to suspend your intellect to have faith. It also means that arguing about faith is bound to fail. Discussing faith can help us all to understand each other better, even if we don't share the same faith.
If you really want to know the Truth, you can only find it by using your heart and your mind.

At least that's how I see it.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 11:16 PM

Where science ends, faith begins.

Faith accompanies many of our actions.

I have faith that if I am kind to my cranky, old mother, my children will be kind to me when I am old.

I have faith when I believe in others.

I have faith in my ability to shape my own destiny.

I have faith that my ancestors, who have walked this earth before me, will guide me. Science is beginning to prove this (DNA). Once proven, faith in this will no longer be necessary.

Faith is what we need to believe when there is no empirical evidence to support it.

Faith is personal. It is not dogma. It is not brainwashing. It is not indoctrination. It is what we need to sustain us when there is no reason to believe.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 04:17 PM

Daylia,

it's an edited book, the three names are the editors (most chapters are by different people) and the American Psychological Association is the publisher. I could get more information, but not before Monday.

I consider it a very good book (well, not each chapter, but on the whole) for its very balanced view.

OBE is a perfect term, better than the old fashioned 'astral travel'. Out of body experience. It doesn't make any assumptions about what is the basis for the experience.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Two_bears
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 03:28 PM

This happened in February 1982. It was not the result of imagination or visualisation. if it was i would do it every night. it felt real, like my spirit had left my body and the planet, flown through the starry sky and into a huge ball of conscious light (the sun?) before emerging, returning, re entering my body, which was by now in a state of complete ecstasy.

---

Hello Shy Cat. It felt real because it WAS real.

What you experienced was a conscious OBE (Out of Body Experience) Everyone. I have experienced a few OBEs, the Talk show host (Art Bell) told of an OBE he had over the city of Paris one night. Authors like William Buhlman, Rick Stack, Albert Taylor, Robert Brude, and several others have written books about how to initiate an OBE. My first OBE happened after I had been meditating for over an hour while directing universal lifeforce energy (Ch'i, Ki, Mana, prana, Manitou, Nuwati, Reiki, and dozens of other names) into an injured ankle.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 11:14 AM

Shycat:

You have, from your own experience, all the faith you might ever need; the experience was exactly as real as it seemed to be at the time. You may find there are few words to really describe it, because it goes beyond normal human experience, but it is nonetheless certainly real, compellingly so.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 11:09 AM

Oops, forgot to ask ... Wolfgang, is the study material you recommended in a university text or in an issue of the American Psychiatric Journal? I'd love to find it ... what you've reported about it sounds so VERY intriguing!

I really do like to have a healthy balance of the scientific with the spiritual when investigating these matters. All the "new-agisms" which seemed so absolutely wonderful to me years ago have been giving me quite the royal PITA (Pain-in-the-a**) lately ....

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 10:52 AM

Carol I'm sorry to hear that your friend's experience left him feeling cheated, "pale" and "flat". Unfortunately, that's often what happens when people have experiences they're simply unprepared for physically, mentally or emotionally.

I always felt that maybe he'd had that experience to show him what was possible, and that it was up to him to make it a part of his everyday life.

That sounds right on to me. You can lead a horse to water, but it's up to the horse to drink it. Or not.

Many people don't understand just how high the costs of having such experiences can prove to be. People can't just walk away from a profound spiritual or visionary experience the same way they can walk out of a movie theatre or turn off a TV. If it's real, you ARE going to be changed, and if you're not ready for your new threads, LOOK OUT!

People who have experiences like this but have not learned how to control or direct them often find they simply cannot "turn it off" or assimilate the information healthfully into their everyday lives. And imo it's these very people who, unfortunately, comprise the bulk of the nation's psychiatric patients.

I didn't understand until I'd been into this work for a while that spiritual energy is of an OPPOSITE nature than physical energy. As one drops, the other rises. That's why people starve themselves before and during vision quests, for example. That's why you have to be really dying (physically) to have a "near-death" experience. And that's why people often report having unprecedented spiritual experiences during their darkest moments, while they are undergoing severe emotional/personal trauma.

Now that I know this, I don't seek out such experiences very often any more. If they happen, great. If they don't, that's fine too. WHen they do happen, I know they usually knock me right off my feet into the "other worlds" for quite awhile, and I certainly can't afford to be in "that space" every day of my life. Not if I want to keep functioning effectively here at all!

(Like, I do need to eat too ... and it IS nice to be able to go to work so I can pay my bills ...)

Anyway, that's enough rambling on for now I think. Thanks for the great thread!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 06:46 PM

shy cat, I used to know someone who had an experience that sounded quite a bit like what you have described. I met him a few years after he had the experience. By the time I met him, he had become somewhat bitter and dissatisfied with his life because everything he had experienced since what he considered a period of enlightenment, seemed pale and flat by comparison. He felt very cheated because he couldn't have that experience of enlightenment every day, or at least he perceived that he couldn't

It wasn't my experience so it wasn't really my place to try to interpret its meaning or purpose for him, but I always felt that maybe he'd had that experience to show him what was possible, and that it was up to him to make it a part of his everyday life. But like I said, it wasn't my experience, so I can only guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 04:18 PM

I had what seemed like a moment of unsual clarity today. I was listening to bluegrass gospel and washing dishes when I heard this song (again): "There's a Higher Power." It seemd to sum up most of what I know in my faith-- that no matter how true and powerful anything else is, there ALSO is an even higher power.

Musing on it later, I expanded upon this statement of faith to realize that no matter how UPward a thing is, there is always a place (or a person or a way of being or a way of doing) that is farther UPward... it's part of the nature of being human that however UP we ourselves are, we can always seem to see just a little farther up than we ourselves are, and reach for that till we can grasp it and look, again, a little farther beyond...

And in my experience, it matters whether one tends usually to be looking UP and forward, or DOWN and backwards.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 01:51 PM

I've no need to discommode so many of my good friends here by saying how things seem to me from where I sit. Other threads are here at Mudcat that say that stuff way too stridently. I'm sorry for those posts. Perpetrating those, at least partially, denies some sincerity to my feelings that live-and-let-live is the only way to go if we are to survive here in this life with any moral high ground and dignity.

But watch out. Faith leads to films being made like The Exorcist and this new one by Mel Gibson. In one the blood is way too THERE---too red---as if the liquid had been put through PHOTOSHOP and enhanced with an intensity that can only be there when human emotions and over the top sentimentality are exploited to perpetrate other agendas. In the other film the color is green as the vomit of hell is spewed from the mouth of the demonized one whose neck swivels 360 degrees on a special effects ratchet.

In both cases extreme dramatization can make a travesty of the tenets and dogmas of that faith. The audience comes there with their faith held tightly and vulnerably in their hearts. Then they are assaulted by visions that warp their faith almost subliminally---but quite actively actually.--------- In effect, these films play on basic beliefs of the people----and to me that is unconcienable.

I've mixed some ideas here. Sorry 'bout that. I guess it's just that sometimes there do seem to be valid reasons for censorship---even when doing that smacks of censorship and limits the $$$$$$$$$ taken in.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 10:25 AM

Sky Cat, in case you feel like reading about your experience from a slightly different angle I recommend:

E. Cardena, S. J. Lynn, S. Krippner, Varieties of anomalous experience, American Psychological Association, 2000.

I recommend Chapter 6, Out of body experiences, but also the chapters close to this chapter. Each of the chapters brings first a description of the experiences with some personal reports, then correlations with personality traits or states, then results from neurophysiology, then more or less all theories (not only the scientific ones) made to explain the experiences, then relationships to other experiences, and finally, the authors' conclusions and open questions.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 10:00 AM

Shy cat, that's an amazing experience! Thanks for sharing it! Sounds to me like you received enough spiritual sustenance and information about who and what you really are (above and beyond your human body, mind and emotions) to keep you satisfied for quite some time to come.

There are many people who study, meditate and practice various spiritual and psychic techniques for years, trying to get even a first glimpse of the truths that you experienced. But until they are ready to handle the information/experiences without losing their "balance" in everyday life, it just doesn't happen. They'd give their eye teeth to have an experience like yours!

It's too bad you feel your experience is neither "rational" or "normal". I know many people, myself included, who have experiences similiar to the one you described on a regular basis, through meditation, shamanic journeying, lucid dream work etc. And I do still consider both myself and them to be just as "normal" and "rational" as anyone else!

I studied with a US-based spiritual organization called Eckankar for a number of years. Their teachings are based primarily on Eastern mysticism. Eck students study at home, practicing spiritual exercises specifically designed to prepare them for experiences like yours. Eckists call such experiences "Soul Travel" (which, they warn you, is really misleading because you don't really "go" anywhere. You just experience yourself on the more subtle planes of awareness). If you like, you can find out more about "Soul Travel" and read about other people's similiar experiences at this link

Thanks again for sharing your experience here!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: GUEST,shy cat
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 08:29 AM

hi guys

i am a mudcatter posting as a guest, because what i am posting is possibly unbelievable.

talk about faith has connected with talk about religion.

i practised a form of meditation which was similar to Tibetan buddhism, although it was an indian practise.

I spent over a dozen years practising meditation, four times a day. I went through a difficult time from 1978 - 82, for various reasons, with my health and a bad marriage.

the marriage had fallen apart the week before. I went to a group meditation, one evening a few days later. this is my experience:

I meditated, eyes closed, until my mind became so still that my sense of observing self withdraws to a point of non- presence.

Suddenly I am in the night sky, space. A huge ball shoots away from me, becoming smaller, until it becomes a small dot in the universe and disappears in space. I have just zoomed from my planet towards a huge light, shooting through the universe. A hole in time, a pause.

I fly through the night sky, emerging from the closest star, the sun. From a huge mass of burning light that is conscious, explosive, vibrant. I zoom through the universe, towards my body which is now collapsed on the floor. Returning, I see myself in a totally detached way, my personality traits, faults and strengths, as if observing a genetic program.

I observe that I will enter that body, that genetic pattern, that I'm going to be that again, then I plunge straight back into that body and personality.

Now I am lying stretched out on the floor.

My body feels saturated in light and is so conscious, and I am so drunk with ecstasy, that I cannot move. My mind is not limited to a point within my skull. My whole body is conscious and my mind is perceiving from my whole body. My body is made up of a sea of atoms/cells, each cell is glowing with golden light.

Each cell is its own conscious entity. Each cell of my body is consciously perceiving. My mind is dwelling in my body, a sea of billions of little minds.

My three month old daughter is placed in my arms. I hold her, and she too becomes saturated in the golden cocoon of awareness.

Some time later, my muscles are so relaxed that they don't function
properly. I have to be helped to sit up and walk because I can't
co-ordinate myself properly.

This happened in February 1982. It was not the result of imagination or visualisation. if it was i would do it every night. it felt real, like my spirit had left my body and the planet, flown through the starry sky and into a huge ball of conscious light (the sun?) before emerging, returning, re entering my body, which was by now in a state of complete ecstasy.

since then, for various reasons, i gave away meditation, & had a normal life working and being a parent to my children. I entered a new happy relationship and had a good life.

now, i look back on that experience. in the moment, it was wonderful, it was a realisation. but life in the last few years has been pretty normal. having a rational mind, despite that experience, I am still unable to sentimentalise about God, the universe, and while i can sometimes feel inspired, at other times i feel spiritually dry.

I would like to be sustained by faith. but how?

sky cat/shy cat

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 01:25 PM

I think the tapestry analogy points out a difference between some ways of experiencing spirituality and others. Some people believe that the tapestry won't be revealed until the individual is separated from physical existance, while others are saying that they already experience the oneness of things, and can thus perceive all aspects of the tapestry even while residing in a physical body. For the people who experience oneness, the idea of separateness is an illusion, and has no substance. But for those who experience the perception of separateness, the separateness has purpose, and so is valid in its own way.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 01:09 PM

Following Bill's link, first article, first line (see Bill, I read 'em): "Why is it that a future-like-ours is the one that counts and not--say--the future of a pig or cow?"

And this illustrates my point...I just don't want to spend time arguing out of this one.

Jerry, back to your original question. One of my favorite Biblical stories is from John when Jesus heals the blind man. Paraphrasing: After the man's sight was restored by Jesus, all his buddies ran up to him saying, "Hey man, what happened here, tell us about it." And the man replied, "All I know is that I was blind, but now I see."

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 01:06 PM

Glad to see you in here, John... I'm on the run.. taking my wife out to lunch.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 01:05 PM

Thanks, Amos: I'm not sure that I subscribe to it either. I've just heard it many times. Personally, I don't need it. I'm right at home, being confused. Been that way all my life. :-) Gadflies are welcome!

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 12:45 PM

For me, faith has proven to be a true lifesaver, when the chips were really down and all else had failed.

But faith can also become a religious distraction, an excuse for closing the mind to alternative, perhaps more beneficial viewpoints, technologies and philosophies. At this point in my life, I consider "faith" second-best to real knowledge gained through first-hand experience, through trial and error, through a lifetime of doing "inner work".

Faith is, however, a fine and very workable starting-place for anyone interested in spiritual growth.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 11:05 AM

I've heard it said that practice is the musician's ultimate act of faith. Faith allows him(her)to act on the belief that the behavior of practice will help him toward a goal of competence -- a belief that is based on both empirical and anecdotal evidence .... and sometimes just hope.

Faith allows me to act on a world view that I believe is based on evidence, both empirical and anecdotal .... and sometimes just hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 10:41 AM

. For those who believe in God and a life with Him in eternity, we'll get to see the other side of the tapestry when we die. No need to see it here, because we couldn't comprehend it. It's faith that leads us to believe that all the seemingly disconnected strands of our life are part of a grand tapestry.



That's a fine definition of faith indeed, Jerry. I am not sure whether the first proposition hangs together, though, because it implies certain beliefs as a pre-requsiite for later perceptions, and I am not sure those beliefs are the ones (and the only ones) that will enable such a perception to occur. Not sure about the notion that we can't comprehend such a view from here either, even if we can't put such a comprehension into language. Don't mean to be a gadfly, but I wouldn't want such a sweeping position to go without comment.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 10:26 AM

What a wonderful story, Boab. There is certainly a song in there....
And so good to see you, Jeanie!

One of my favorite images of life is one I've heard many times... that life is a tapestry, and we're looking ath the back of it. We see individual strands of color and know that they are all part of the tapestry, but we can't see the image on the other side and how they all contribute to the picture. For those who believe in God and a life with Him in eternity, we'll get to see the other side of the tapestry when we die. No need to see it here, because we couldn't comprehend it. It's faith that leads us to believe that all the seemingly disconnected strands of our life are part of a grand tapestry.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jeanie
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 05:29 AM

That is a wonderful true story, Boab, and this is a wonderful thread all round. So many thoughts to ponder on, so many pieces being added to the mosaic. For me, the image of a perfect picture being built up piece by piece, like a mosaic, is the best way I can describe what 'faith' is to me. It is an ongoing process, throughout life. Each piece, each fragment, is beautiful in its own right, and each is unique, but hinting at, pointing to, something so much greater, that I have yet to see as whole, which connects all the individual pieces together. Those fragments can show themselves just about anywhere, at any time, and they are uniquely personal to the one who is experiencing them. If I were to list some of the times I have seen and felt new pieces in the mosaic, they may mean little or nothing to anyone else, because they were for me, for my pattern of understanding. What they all have in common is that they involve a feeling of connectedness with people, with the natural world, a recognition of a wordless love, goodness, beauty and purpose.

I love the poem which says that when we are born, we come "trailing clouds of glory from heaven which is our home". It is as if we arrive, having already seen the big picture. Our lives are spent catching glorious glimpses of it. No doubt about it, catching those glimpses have changed me - the way I think, the way I behave - and, as long as I continue to see them, I know they will carry on doing just that.

"Now we see things imperfectly as in a poor mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God knows me now.
There are three things that will endure - faith, hope, and love - and the greatest of these is love."

With Love,
- jeanie