BS: Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 10:26 AM

I think that Jim's responses reflect an emotional and passionate reaction to the Israeli
occupation and subjugation of Palestinians and I don't think he has to be polite about his reactions because Israel has behaved reprehensibly. I don't know what the Israeli apologists here have in mind and expressing ideas without undue heat in this case may be virtually impossible.

Remember that the term Anti-Semitic is a misnomer because Palestinians and Arabs in general are all members of Semitic tribes and languages. Anti-Zionist might be more appropriate here.

Atrocities anywhere are not to be defended by saying as a schoolyard statement, "Well, he did it" or "He did it first". I think that more passion should be exerted on this issue instead of the weak apologies given here.

Fortunately, these apologetic defenses are not representative of all here.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 10:23 AM

"Bobad and others"
Others ?
"Could you not at least try to mitigate their effects by admitting that they might be taken amiss,"
They will only be "taken amiss" by those trying to defend the indefensible.
"I think it probable, all things considered, that you are not consciously or intentionally antisemitic."
I would like to think you are not a racist; difficlult with your double standards on racist stereotyping
Still no examples of my attacking Jews though!
"Why do you insist on ploughing it up with your studied, unwearying, & to all apperarances intentional and unregretted insults."
Possibly for the same reason you keep ignoring Israeli fascism and claiming it's nt here yet.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 10:00 AM

Again, Jim, and trying to express it without undue heat: yes, it does come over as such, so long as you persist in bandying about words with the associations of 'Nazi' & 'Holocaust'; however much you may try to abate their baleful effect with 'echoes' and 'in reverse' and 'matters of scale'. It has been pointed out that these terms are bound to be offensive: not only by me, but by Bobad and others. Could you not at least try to mitigate their effects by admitting that they might be taken amiss, and finding some alternative locutions to express your [in many cases, as I have never denied] justified criticisms of and animadversions against, Israeli policies and actions? But, no; such requests have fallen on deaf ears. There is, as McGrath pointed out, a fair bit of common ground here. Why do you insist on ploughing it up with your studied, unwearying, & to all apperarances intentional and unregretted insults.

I think it probable, all things considered, that you are not consciously or intentionally antisemitic. But you seem strangely unwilling to climb down from the obstinate stance you have adopted which is what gives me, and others, so distinct an overall impression to the contrary.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 08:40 AM

Thank you Don and McGrath.
Nowhere have I questioned the right of the State Israel to exist - I have questioned the statement of others that Palestine should not be granted statehood, a line being peddled by Israel (I listened to Benjamin Netanyahu's UN speech describing the Palestinians as deadly "crocodiles") and backed up only by an undemocratic and bullying US veto
My point remains that if one is deserving of statehood, both are, and distorting that to mean the opposite seems par for the course for one whose arguments (where he has bothered to put them) have sunk to the level of facile and (had they come from anybody else) extremely hurtful.
As a pacifist I am appalled that terrorism, massacres of civilians, ghettoisation, evictions to make room for the invaders, destructions of homes, daily persecution and humiliation, attempts to starve into submission..... should be resorted to, but as McGrath's link made perfectly clear, the blame for some of the violence lies on both sides of the conflict, the only difference being that Israel has a well-armed, well trained powerful force at their disposal to quash a poorly equipped bunch of cowboys with crude equipment and virtually no training.
As far as I am concerned the only way the Palestinian problem will be solved is by debate and co-operation on equal terms - the only alternative I can see is being crushed into submission by force of arms an political and economic bullying, which seems to be the option the Israelis (with the support of the US) have opted for.   
Hiding behind worries of "what Isreal might become" doesn't begin to address the question, and certainly nor does ignoring the atrocities taking place on a massive scale and writing of criticism of same as "anti-Semitism and Jew-baiting.
I have asked on a number of occasions for examples of my criticising anybody other than the Israeli administration for what is happening in Palestine; once again, have you examples of my doing anything but this and if not, is describing some of the actions of the Israeli Government as 'crimes against humanity "anti-Semitic Jew baiting"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 08:37 AM

DonT

Form Message permanently bookmarked:

It is my policy to make no further response than this to posts which are purely abusive, as I take yours to be.

No further correspondence will be entered into.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 07:08 AM

""He appears to wish Israel had never been suffered to come into existence; belittles the difficulties it encountered then, attacked literally on all sides by overwhelming numbers of hostile enemies, against whom he appears to think it should not have defended itself; and accuses it of bad faith in the way that defence was conducted: and would, it appears, agree with the present determination expressed by so many of the neighbouring states to this day, that its total destruction is highly desirable.""

Nowhere that I can find, has Jim said that Israel has no right to exist, or to defend itself against aggression.

He has said that their over the top responses in Gaza are terrorism pure and simple and he is right. They need to moderate their position, and so do you.

You and Keith, having conducted olympic standard whingeing sessions about poor Keith being bullied by the rest on other threads, have decided to devote your energies to hijacking this thread in one of the most protracted and concentrated bullying attacks on another member it has been my misfortune to witness.

I'm not quite sure why the moderators have allowed it to continue thus far, but it is a deplorable, mean spirited action and completely unjustifiable action on your part which should meet with censure.

You try most of the time to come across as the epitome of reasonable, polite humanity, but in the last few days you have revealed the real personality behind the act, and it's not a pretty sight.

Your hectoring, name calling and plain bad manners transcend anything that has been levelled at you in the past, and the respect I might have had for your point of view is utterly destroyed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 06:42 AM

Very good answer, Kevin ~~ but to what question[s]? ~ certainly not to any of those that I asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 06:40 AM

There is actually nothing anti-semitic in wishing that the history of anti-semitism in Europe, culminating in the Holocaust had not happened, and that's its consequence in the setting up of the state of Israel, with its devastating effects on the lives of the inhabitants of the area, had never come about.

We have to live with the history that happened, make the most of it, and try to repair the damage. Ultimately good things can come as a result of terrible crimes. The Slave Trade and the Irish Famine had some wonderful consequences. Present day America, and the world, would be very much culturally poorer if they had not.

But they were disasters for all that. And of course we can never know what the world lost because they happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 06:15 AM

Wherein this 'falseness' of apprehension, pray? His objections appear to be, not just to the current policies, in which, as you say I agree with him, but to the very existence of the State of Israel from the word 'go'. He appears to wish Israel had never been suffered to come into existence; belittles the difficulties it encountered then, attacked literally on all sides by overwhelming numbers of hostile enemies, against whom he appears to think it should not have defended itself; and accuses it of bad faith in the way that defence was conducted: and would, it appears, agree with the present determination expressed by so many of the neighbouring states to this day, that its total destruction is highly desirable.

In support of these opinions, he employs rhetoric explicitly designed and intended [he has never denied this, note ~~ I say again how proud his father would have been if he could see & hear how he goes on now!] to offend Jews and belittle the sufferings they underwent during what was probably the most appalling sequence of events to have occurred in, let us say, the past two or three centuries; with his litany of 'Nazi echoes' and 'Holocaust in reverse' & all the rest of it. It is a sort of fringe Holocaust-denial in which he is indulging. (Are you just listening to your son on the Other Side, Mr Carroll Snr!?). And you find falsehood, do you, in my perception of all this as antisemitic?

If this syndrome of opinions, wishes and expressions is not antisemitic, just tell me what you think would be so, please, Kevin.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 05:49 AM

Basically from what I've read here, Jim Carroll and MtheGM seem to have roughly the same view of current Israeli policies and practice.

It's just that the latter objects to the rhetoric the former uses, and interprets that as being anti-semitic. Quite falsely it appears.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 04:55 AM

Well, wouldn't your father have been proud of what you have come to, then!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 04:29 AM

"Antisemite-James"
Getting a little sick of this
A brief clarification of my Anti Semitism.
I was brought up as part of an anti-Fascist family.
My uncles, aunts and grandparents were part of the Anti-Mosely demonstrators who went out and fought the good old 'guardian's of the law' who were staunchly defending that peer of the realm's "right to free speech" to the extent that at least two of my relatives ended up in prison for their 'crimes'.
My father was so disturbed at what was happening in Nazi Germany that he went to Spain (as a then practicing Catholic) to fight Fascism, where he was wounded and taken prisoner. I found out earlier this year that one of the regular events that he was treated to was a mock firing squad where he and several of his fellow prisoners were taken into a yard, stood up against a wall and prepared to be shot - this happened at least a dozen times during his stay.
He returned to good old "anti-Facist Britain" where the government were girding their loins to "fight the Hun" (the same government who came back from Munich waving "Peace in our time" declarations, and some of whose MPs, when the facts filtered through about Auschwitz, dismissed them as "the lies of wingeing Yids" - denied by your acolyte Keithie btw)
My father found that not only had he been excommunicated from his religion in his absence (not important by then), but he had also been awarded the honour of a police record as a "premature anti-Fascist"
When he tried to return to his work he found that, thanks to a visit to potential employers by the authorities, he had been placed on a blacklist as 'suspect'.
Eventually he had no other alternative to join McAlpines men and work away from home, the result being that my sister and I hardly saw him until I was nearly at the end of my schooling.
When he died in the mid-sixties a number of his old friends, and comrades, including several Jewish ex International Brigaders, came to his funeral and regaled us with their exploits of fighting Mosely and his fascists and Franco in Spain.
My sisters and I were brought up to respect people of different races, religions and cultures, to enjoy their company and to speak out when we found them under attack from bigots and racists.   
As a youth I was quite often embarrased by my father's outspokeness; nowadays hardly a day passes when I don't think of him with pride.
So when a squalid like you vomits his "anti-Semite" and "Jew-baiter" alternative for argument, I tend to welcome them as confirmation of my opinions, sort of like how my faher wore his "premature anti-fascism as a badge of honour.
So you may take your miserably cowardly alternatives for discussion, your racist double-standards, your support for blatently racist stereotyping, and your 'support by silence and 'apologism' for Zionist fascism and shove them as far from the daylight as you possibly can.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 02:26 AM

... and as for the now probably European leaders, Germany!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 12:57 AM

"The list of continued massacres of civilians dating back sixty odd years, fully reported, verified, and in many cases, officially enquired into by independent bodies, including the U.N., make Israel unquestionably a terrorist state.
If Palestine is not fit for Statehood because of Hamas's (undisputed) terrorism, then neither is Israel.
Jim Carroll"
.,,.
Brilliant leap of logic in that last sentence, absolutely typical of Antisemite-James. On that basis, I should love to hear of any state in the modern world with nothing in its history that would disqualify it for "Statehood" ~~ USA/Redskins; Australia/Aborigines; Belgium/Congo; UK/sub-Saharan Africa [which, otoh, is observably so much nicer an area since we withdrew!]/Amritsar (cont p 94). The UN General Assembly is going to look a bit desolate and forsaken.

For heaven's sake drop it, Jim. Is there no limit you will not overstep to demonstrate that you are not just racist, but also profoundly bloody STUPID! Get back in your glass house and commune with yourself and revolve your racist sentiments in your own mind not on this forum, you were better.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 08:34 PM

The U.S. is incapable of being an honest broker in the peace deal. It should be another
country, perhaps Brazil or one that doesn't have a vested political interest.

White phosphorous is a chemical weapon and was used as such. To say otherwise
makes no sense and is risible. The same people who said that it wasn't probably were the same who maintained that the U.S. doesn't torture.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 05:09 PM

Come on, people, the Semites have been slaughtering each other for millennia, and white folks have been slaughtering everybody for centuries, so let's go back to the thread.

What about Libya falling? Help, or hindrance, to the Palesteins getting a state?

(I've also decided in fairness to start calling misspelling Israeallah, too.)

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 02:32 PM

Suggesting that there have been no massacres carried out by Israeli military personnel over the years is as absurd as claiming that there have been no massacres out by Palestinians. It's a nigfhmare,

This list includes both List of massacres in Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 01:40 PM

The reports of massacres of civilians by Israel are covered by many sources, including the BBC and Channel Four news, Panorama......
The earliest comprehensive on-the-spot report that fully implicated Israel in the Shatila and Sabra massacres, along with horrific photographs, was carried by the The Sunday Times, colour supplement (think I still have a copy on file).
The list of continued massacres of civilians dating back sixty odd years, fully reported, verified, and in many cases, officially enquired into by independent bodies, including the U.N., make Israel unquestionably a terrorist state.
If Palestine is not fit for Statehood because of Hamas's (undisputed) terrorism, then neither is Israel.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 12:16 PM

It was not off topic Don.
That was about how Israel was being reported in Pravda, remember?
Why are you always so hostile?
"Racial superiority"??
Where did that come from?

I am off line for a week or so.
Catch up with you then.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 12:01 PM

I'm not feeding your ego any more by following your "off Topic" bait, so talk about Palestine and I'll respond.

The other subject?... start a thread, and I'll tell you there.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:08 AM

implying that Pravda, with no axe to grind,...

Are YOU implying that Pravda has a reputation for honest, independent, objective reporting Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:05 AM

"Whenever peace talks look like getting anywhere, one side or the other chucks a spanner into the works."

someone's always doing it, it's like peace is not wanted in the mid east (or anywhere else come to that). The one "side" that's doing very well out of sll this is, of course, the arms dealers.

P.S. speaking of spanners in the works, I see Jim The Red has been doing his share.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 10:52 AM

I never thought I'd say this, but I have to agree with Bruce.

This deal with Hamas is not likely to bring any more serious attempt at achieving peace than we have seen in the past.

I think that the only way to keep the peace on that border is to have a force wearing blue berets along the line, with guns pointing in both directions.

The IDF will never establish anything other than more Palestinian corpses, and Hamas hasn't the sense to see that firing unaimed rockets, most of which just dig holes and scare cattle, is a ludicrous waste of time and energy.

Given that neither Israel nor Palestine is going to go away anytime soon, they need to decide what the border is now, and Israel needs to try something new and stay on its own side of the line.

Whenever peace talks look like getting anywhere, one side or the other chucks a spanner into the works.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 10:39 AM

""I believe it though, because I trust BBC to have done their research.""

While castigating Jim, and implying that Pravda, with no axe to grind, are spouting a pack of lies.

Is there just a tinge of "racial superiority" there?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 10:38 AM

OK. If that's what you want. Stay comfortable in your glass house & I hope it keeps fine for you.

Ta-ra.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 10:27 AM

"What, Jim? ~ without answering the question I put you at the end of my post of 20 Oct 05;22 pm,"
Do you really want to continue nausing up this thread Mike - why not start one on the twin arts racism and hypocracy.
Leave it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 07:26 AM

Some interruption Jim!
This thread is one month old.
You raised the spurious issue of British Pakistanis when it was only 26 hours old.
Sorry does not really cover it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 07:17 AM

What, Jim? ~ without answering the question I put you at the end of my post of 20 Oct 0522 pm, or explaining or departing at all from the usages & locutions which occasioned it? You do realise the position that appears to leave you in?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 07:12 AM

livelylass
As far as I'm concerned I have said what I have to say on this matter, I see nothing to change my mind and stand by all I have said
As far as I'm concerned - it is finished here and I apologise that it has interrupted this thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 05:24 AM

I did not want this livelylass.
Jim Carroll keeps bringing it up, and making slanderous accusations against me that I feel I have to refute.
I do not know why he is allowed to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 05:12 AM

I was wondering if the mods could ban discussion of 'that other thread' here. Accusations of either anti-muslim racism or anti-semitism, are I believe of no genuine value to the discussion of the Israeli-Palestine issue as it is currently unfolding.

I am honestly interested in contributing to and reading contributions to the topic of the thread, a heartfelt "please" to those who are engaging in personal disputes (however strongly felt), to engage in such elsewhere.

I personally believe that this period in the middle-east is of great significance to us all, and humbly and politely request that other participants recognise and respect that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 03:34 AM

That was not my opinion BTW.
How would I know about things like that.
I believe it though, because I trust BBC to have done their research.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 03:30 AM

It is estimated that at least 55% of British Pakistanis are married to first cousins and the tradition is also common among some other South Asian communities and in some Middle Eastern countries.

British Pakistanis are 13 times more likely to have children with genetic disorders than the general population - they account for just over 3% of all births but have just under a third of all British children with such illnesses.

Indeed, Birmingham Primary Care Trust estimates that one in ten of all children born to first cousins in the city either dies in infancy or goes on to develop serious disability as a result of a recessive genetic disorder.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4442010.stm

Their culture predisposes BP children to genetic disease.
Is it racist to say that?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 07:27 PM

just for curiosity, which "knowledgeable people" and which of them mentioned "cultural implants"

They were Straw, Cryer, Saffiq, Ahmed and Allibhai-Brown.
They separately blamed the offending on aspects of culture.
Because they did it separately, they expressed it differently.

Don T summed it up as a "cultural implant."
Was he wrong to do that?
Had he misunderstood them, in your opinion Jim.
(Careful Jim. He is the only one still supporting your crazed campaign.)
I would not have used those words but took it on for the sake of furthering the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 07:20 PM

Mrrzy, the weather forecast is prepared by meteorological experts and is made with data and evidence that is not available to me, and would be meaningless if it was.
I believe it because of that, but the opinion is their's.
I might bring it into conversation if relevant, but I am not endorsing it, promoting it or advocating it.
It is the opinion of experts made available to me.
I have no reason not to believe it, BUT IT IS NOT MY OPINION.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 05:40 PM

Um, if you believe something, then it becomes your opinion too. If it never becomes your opinion, then you haven't believed it. N'est-ce pas?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 05:22 PM

It depends on what you define as "racism", Jim. My point is that I can't see that Keith's accepting the word of people more acquainted with the demographic in question than he himself admitted to being made him a racist; accusing him as being so in such circumstances strikes me as mere messenger-shooting. And I am afraid that I do regard your persistent use of terms aimed offensively at Jews, and declining to desist even after their offensiveness & inevitable hurtfulness, as reminders of the lowest point in modern European history in which they were the principal victims, in such a way as to detract from & belittle the horrors and enormities of the persecutions undergone, was pointed out by Bobad, me and others, can only be construed as antisemitic ~ how else would you designate such persistent belligerent indulgence in behaviour and rhetoric which is bound, and apparently intended, to cause offence to that particular demographic?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 04:31 PM

If you didn't say you saw no racism in what Keith said (will check later) I apologise unconditionally
Make no apologes for targeting outrageous racist statements - put it down to a poor upbringing!
Are you really suggesting racism should be given a fair hearing - whatever happened to the anti-Semite sewer rat??
Sorry missed Bobad's comments - he is entitled to his opinion as I am entitled to disagree with them; I'm happy to stand by my own opinions and take responsibility for them without seeking support from you, Bobad or anybody - would that we all did the same.
Jiim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 04:07 PM

If that 'one supporter' is supposed to be me, JC, then I neither support nor oppose it as a statement; my position is simply that you persistently deny Keith a fair hearing because of a personal vendetta you are obsessed by, based on remarks you allege him to have made on other threads which have long since vanished into the ewigkeit. As to the rights & wrongs of his adoption of the views of those other pundits, I make no comment* ~ except that he is as entitled to believe them as you are to disbelieve them: provided that you do it with enough integrity to avoid the sort of paltering with the truth which I demonstrated you to have been indulging in, re Bobad's post, a few posts back.

~M~

*Don T please note also.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 03:23 PM

"but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people"
It is not an excuse for putting up such a racist statement, but just for curiosity, which "knowledgeable people" and which of them mentioned "cultural implants and the entire Pakistani population.
You have persistantly avoided answering this so if you continue to do so I will leave you with what is an extremely racist statement, for which, as far as I can see, you have only one supporter.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 03:02 PM

If you wish to assert that the marriage customs are responsible for the actions, you need to show that those actions are committed throughout the culture, and in other cultures which share those customs.

That is a message for those who made that assertion, who included famously ant-racist Pakistani people who have spent a lifetime defending their community from racism and bigotry, not for us who are just persuaded by their wise, informed counsel.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 02:48 PM

""WHY, Don? Genuinely do not follow your logic.""

Simply this.

If you wish to assert that the marriage customs are responsible for the actions, you need to show that those actions are committed throughout the culture, and in other cultures which share those customs.

So basing your ""speculatively as a result of the inhibiting effects of their demographic's mandatory marriage customs,"" on such a small and unrepresentative number of members of that culture, just won't wash.

Now, I believe the topic is Palestine, if you two can let up on the "let's flame JC".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 02:41 PM

Keith the statement that "all male Pakistanis" carried "a cultural implant" was put to you by Don - you endorsed it as "my opinion" - it is your opinion.

NO IT IS NOT.
I SAID I BELIEVED IT, NOT THAT IT WAS MY OPINION.
You believe a doctor's diagnosis, but it is HIS opinion not yours.
If you go to another doc. it is a SECOND opinion, not a third!

And I said that I believed it, "but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:47 PM

···As far as my having received no support on this thread; I think none of us can claim that····
..,,..
Oh, do you? I explicitly solicited support for you. Only response was following from Bobad

From: bobad - PM
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 07:40 AM

I am not Jewish, but as I am a person of Eastern European extraction whose family suffered greatly at the hands of the Nazis, I too find Mr. Carroll's use of the tems "Nazi" and "holocaust", in regards to the state of Israel, to be both odious and offensive. I expressed my opinion on this early on in this thread:

~~Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: bobad - PM
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:29 PM

Comparing Israel's actions to that of Nazis is despicable anti-semitism~~.

I think Keith has it about right: if you are not a liar, then you have an uncanny knack of closing your eyes to the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:45 PM

"you can not, and have not denied that the cultural explanation came from the 5 and not from me."
Keith the statement that "all male Pakistanis" carried "a cultural implant" was put to you by Don - you endorsed it as "my opinion" - it is your opinion.
If you continue to claim that anybody else has said it, the solution is simple , put up the quote if not, please go **** yourself.
I suggest that it is deranged to continue denying something that as in print and has been put up interminably. Who else, other than you, has said that "All male Pakistanis have a cultural implant...."?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:26 PM

Jim, you can not, and have not denied that the cultural explanation came from the 5 and not from me.
Why repeat the obvious lie Jim?
How does it make you look?
(Deranged actually Jim.)

I know nothing of the culture, except what I have learned from the 5.
IT COULD NOT HAVE COME FROM ME.
IT IS THAT SIMPLE YOU FOOL.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 12:20 PM

Smoke and mirrors Mike - if I had put forward my view as like-with- like you might have a point - I didn't and you haven't.
Other than that, everything - like Keith's 'cultural implant' remains entirely in your vicious (and apparently extremely defensive) imagination.
Keith's ongoing defence by denial is little different to those who would explain away, the holocaust. The numbers are certainly incomparable but the continuing denial of the part played by the Israelis in a massacre that took the lives of up to 3,500 refugees is to excuse a major crime against humanity. By claiming it is any less of an atrocity by counting the dead, or to attempt to lessen the blame by reducing the guilt of the war criminals to "a failure to stop it from happening" is to take a similar line to those who would deny the holocaust - it is to absolve war criminals from their crime (in the case of Sabra and Shatila, up to 3,500).
Keith chooses to support his denial by undermining the journal I put up, choosing (wisely from his point of view) to ignore the many other reports which give the massacres as "Israeli facilitated" (isn't that what they all do) and in some case participated in. Not holocaust standards, but the denial of these and the many other killings is certainly reminiscent of David Irvine and his intellectual thugs.
At first I naively suspected that your blessing for Keith's openly racist statement, (which we have now apparently established was his own twisted summing up of Pakistani culture = racism plus lying) was an attempt to help a very lame dog over a very high stile - until your own breathtakingly stupid display of racism suggesting that it was ok to express racist stereotypes about Pakistanis, but not Jews - hypocrisy at best, but to my mind, just plain old-fashioned racism garnished with double standards.
As far as my having received no support on this thread; I think none of us can claim that - Don Wise has lived up to his name - we have all pretty well disgraced ourselves in taking a serious thread and turning it into a slanging match fiasco - shame on us all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 10:46 AM

Taking a look to see what is up with this thread.

There are no innocent parties at this point in the conflict between Israel and her Palestinian and other Arab neighbors. She is a bad neighbor in many ways because she has a big friend - the US - that until now has been letting her get away with bad behavior. This observation has nothing to do with being anti-Semitic - it has to do with Israel's uncanny political ability to booby-trap peace negotiations by lobbing one last well-timed missile or sending in a militant group of villagers to build another "settlement" in a sensitive area every time it looks like peace might break out.

Throwing around the term "Holocaust" simply reminds me once again that the term that used to imply a natural disaster event has been appropriated to mean only the WWII-era Nazi murder of millions of Jewish and minority non-Aryan Europeans. That kind of semantic shift happens. And while at one time "Nazi" meant just one thing, nowadays that word has gained a lower-case "n" use - if someone is too anal about some interest or subject they are sometimes referred to as a Whatever-nazi.

Comparing Israel's actions to that of WWII German Nazi's is unfortunate and inaccurate, but if you remember the saying "children learn what they live," while I don't begin to believe there are death camps or such activities, earlier generations of Israelis learned about ghettos and refugee camps. They and modern generations continue to visit these habitations upon the Palestinians who are second-class citizens in their homeland.

Now that I've made my remarks I'll go away again for another 500 posts.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 07:40 AM

I am not Jewish, but as I am a person of Eastern European extraction whose family suffered greatly at the hands of the Nazis, I too find Mr. Carroll's use of the tems "Nazi" and "holocaust", in regards to the state of Israel, to be both odious and offensive. I expressed my opinion on this early on in this thread:

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: bobad - PM
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:29 PM

Comparing Israel's actions to that of Nazis is despicable anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:57 AM

What you are missing, Confused Of Dagenham, is the deliberate offensiveness of the choice of vocabulary in which Mr Carroll insists on denouncing Israel ~~ a never-ending litany of terms like Nazi & Holocaust, of particularly distressing and offensive associations to Jews. It has been suggested that he find other terms to express his opposition to Israel, but he has declined to do so; which suggests that his purpose is to be offensive to Jews; which I cannot envisage as the sort of course that would be deliberately pursued by anyone who was not a hater of Jews in general ~~ an antisemite, in short.

Hope that answers your point.

~Michael~