BS: Ruins on Mars???

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 05:36 PM

No, no, Wolfgang, you are not paying close attention to what I said... :-)

I didn't say "what if GUEST believes he has been astral traveling?"...I said "what if GUEST has been astral-travelling?"

Big difference there. You can't depend much on people who merely believe something for any final answers to the really tricky questions.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 04:05 PM

...er....i didnt put that well....but we all know the kind of 'Guests' I'm meaning...rather than simply Non-Members....

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 04:02 PM

They cant be ruins...the Mysterons would have restored any damaged buildings to their original state...

(I'm assuming that you in the Colonies did get to see the Gerry Anderson puppet series Captain Scarlet & the Mysterons in the 60's & 70's?)

& no, Little Hawk....there has to be more than 1 person for it to be a conspiracy...& all these particular 'Guests' are VERY MUCH loners....

*G*

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 06:41 AM

How can anyone tell if there are ruins on Mars? It looks pretty well ruined already. *********************************************************

Elvis has left the building! He has taken the parking lot with him. But, he has left the building.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 04:45 AM

If GUEST believes he has been astral-travelling? Same advice, of course.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 04:15 PM

Yes, Bill, but what if GUEST has been astral-travelling?

How come so many old threads have been revived in the last 24 hours? Is it some kind of conspiracy? :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 02:04 PM

hmmm...you need to either double those medications, of halve them

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 02:06 AM

I have seen them

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: GUEST,Wa BanZhou
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 01:30 PM

I suggest checking out "Saul-Paul Sirag" on your search engine for crazy ideas,well told, about the faces on Mars.

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 07:21 PM

It's easy, Soph...just go to any university and sit in on a meeting of the engineers' society! :-)

I could also point you in the direction of several likely people in the Orillia area who will repeat to you every common notion and cliche you've ever heard and bore you to tears while they obsess over the "fact" that hundreds of perverts deserving execution are living a cushy life in a palatial jail cell somewhere, and bemoan the "fact" that turban-wearing immigrants are taking over our society and destroying our churches...

I am, of course, being somewhat flippant. The conventional mind exists in the mind's eye of the beholder. Some people are more obviously rigid than others when it comes to considering new (new to them, that is) ideas...and it's clear that their rigidity is based mostly on a desire for psychological security in an ever-changing world.

DH - thanks for the links...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: sophocleese
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 07:09 AM

I guess, Little Hawk, I have a kneejerk reaction to the term "conventional mind". What does a conventional mind look like? Where can I find one? In my experience the more I talk to different people the less I"m able to pigeonhole them and say that because such and such does A then they will also believe B. I don't ask every person on the street what they think of the possibility of life on Mars, I really shouldn't assume I know what they think.

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: GUEST,DH
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 01:39 AM

Most is common knowledge from "Art Bell's Open Mind" radio program he really makes you think about the government and the coverups http://www.artbell.com/topics1099.html

But try these sites, I've told them about the MudCat Cafe.

http://www.labyrinthina.com/coral.htm

http://members.fortunecity.com/don_barone/links.html

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 03:35 PM

You're dropping some intriguing hints, DH. Got any websites you can direct me to?

Wolfgang - Of course, what you say is completely reasonable. I'm not really making an argument for or against the matter of life on Mars, because I'm not in a position to gather the necessary evidence. It's just a subject I'm curious about, and I thought if I started a thread that something interesting might come up.

I am in no position whatsoever to provide conclusive evidence about anything on Mars, and I know it.

I just react strongly against kneejerk reactions of the conventional mind, which tends to ridicule anything new which it considers unusual without giving it any consideration at all. That is prejudgement, based on an existing prejudice or inclination, not on evidence or lack thereof.

When I see such unthinking ridicule of any unusual idea, I tend to respond with a certain measure of ridicule in return...

Open minds are more likely to make new discoveries than closed ones, but the conventional mind is seldom very open, I find. It delights in maintaining and defending the past.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: GUEST,DH
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 12:41 PM

As we find out more we will find that South America and Eygpt had trade and the mysteries of both are related to the structures on Mars.

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 05:37 PM

Any chance of a link to those forest and tube structures - I mean sites on them, not transport portals? A scientist friend points out that Lowell was surrounded by a landscape not unlike that of Mars, complete with canals, which may have influnced his perceptions somewhat.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: MMario
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 09:30 AM

my point exactly - or so I'm told.

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 09:21 AM

MMmario: I don't think much - therefore I might not be!

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 06:50 AM

Little Hawk, you've come up with some crazy ideas, but this one takes the cake!!!!

Deep Impact a very good Movie??????

Tea Leone was so lame in it I was relieved to see her character die!!! Now if they'd only killed off de crappio in the first reel of Titanic!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: GUEST,DH
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 06:00 AM

A planet like Mars has vortex like those we find on earth in Egypt, Peru, Florida. At the vortex we will find gates.

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 06:12 PM

Graham:

If ny the pretty idea commenty you mean the notion that matter and space time are derived from the intentionality of something we refer to as spiritual, I would suggest that the fact that you can and do post as you do is pretty strong evidence. Ain't no structure can argue itself out of existence! :>) It seems that the most common event of the spirit -- for example receiving a communication accurately, or understanding something --is highly underestimated as to its qualitative difference from all the serial relays, stimulus response interactions, and so on, which might also be involved.

But I am simply describing one cosmology, an alternative to the "more and more complex arrangements of inanimate objects become mysteriously conscious" school of thought which strikes me as ridiculously disingenuous.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: GUEST,old head
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 05:19 PM

yes. it's all in the bible

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Rollo
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 04:52 PM

About the tube structures: I remember having seen high altitude photographs of sand dunes in the sahara looking exactly the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 02:32 PM

Little Hawk, this is not the alternative health thread, but if you mean Walter Reed, he's a brilliant example. This man within a few years convinced his colleagues that a once minority position was actually correct. He did this by experimentation and carefully chosen controls. He also tested the alternative theories and made tests that were crucial for his theory for they easily could have shown it wrong. He convinced by evidence. That's the only way.

But the structure of your implicit argument is unconvincing. You know of a lone man who turned out to be correct. The ruins-on-the-Mars men are also lone men. Therefore...?

Well, I know many minority positions that turned out to be wrong. What follows from that? Nothing.

The fact that someone can think up a fancy idea or theory says nothing yet about it being right or wrong. Show me good and convincing evidence (and the bolder the claim, the stronger I like the evidence to be) and then I love to change my mind.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 02:23 PM

That date was supposed to be 1898, by the way...(Spanish American War).

Grab - Fair enough. But, hey, believing there is (or was) life on Mars does make me happy! Therefore it has "contributed to human happiness"! :-) Well, on a small scale...

There may or may not be solid evidence available at present, and we may or may not have been provided access to it. All of that remains speculative at this point.

The only way you or I will know for absolute certain sure is if we go to Mars ourselves, given the nature of human beings and society, which can blithely and officially endorse complete untruths and vigorously deny truths and vice versa, and have done so on a pretty regular basis throughout history...usually in order to serve some temporary agenda involving power or money.

I am not filled with confidence in the authority figures (scientists, politicians, religious leaders, and generals) of my day. History has already proven them wrong many, many times.

Whether it will prove them wrong in regards to Mars remains to be seen.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: MMario
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 01:38 PM

LH there are days I don't even believe my own existance - why shouldn't I doubt other stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Grab
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 01:37 PM

LH and Amos, it's a sweet idea. Trouble is, it's no more than pretty words unless there's any evidence to back it up. During the course of history, there's been many times where pretty words and deep philosophy have been favoured over the cause-and-effect which can be observed. At no point have the pretty words contributed to human happiness (in fact they've more frequently been the cause of much unhappiness and wars), whereas the cause-and-effect experimentation has contributed significantly to human happiness.

My point is that theorising about the meaning of existence teaches no-one anything about existence, all it does is teach us about the person theorising. Truth is that which can be demonstrated. You can believe what you want and say "I _think_ this is the case", but until you can demonstrate that your belief is actually the case then you shouldn't be criticising others who don't share your belief. In Amos's examples, possibly these guys are failing by trying to measure something which ain't there - this is an equally valid answer until Rhine or someone does come up with the goods.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 01:26 PM

And you wouldn't believe it even if it was true...

I mean, hell, 99% of the doctors in the USA around 1989 to the early 1900's heaped ridicule on the one military doctor who suggested that mosquito bites were causing yellow fever in Cuba. They knew better, and he was a quack...a charlatan...a fool.

Guess what? The quack turned out to be right.

Now all doctors are proud that they, brilliant men that they are, know exactly how mosquitos infect people with yellow fever. Meanwhile, they are no doubt denying about 1,001 other discoveries in the alternative health field, and protecting their holy turf and the drug companies who pay them off to maintain it.

GUEST, dh - Yeah, I've seen the stuff on the tube structures...very interesting! I was wondering if anyone would mention that. I don't recall seeing anything about "forest formations".

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: MMario
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:17 AM

yeah - right, guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:08 AM

They could not print it - if it was not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:04 PM

Elvis was a marvelous singer, Bert! And in the early days he was an incredible live performer, but dinna fergit, Ah grew up oan folk music not rock 'n roll. It was the lyrical aspect of Elvis that left me uninterested. Musically he was superb, but if the song lyrics do not grab me I can hardly be bothered.

Elvis sang silly rock songs. Dylan sings songs that mean a whole lot on a whole bunch of different levels. Elvis's body language was revolutionary, but Dylan's thoughts were revolutionary. That's the dividing line for me. I am not into music just for fun, I'm into it for transformation.

But what puzzles me is...why are people always willing to give their "left" nut? What is it about the "right" nut that makes it totally indispensable? Answer me that? :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: GUEST,dh
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:57 PM

please send left nut to: 2817 Mostow st. Silver spring 20902 MD....meanwhile the unwashed yahoos that frequent this forum have ignored or are ignorant of the convincing evidence regarding forest formations and tube structures on Mars

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Bert
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:08 AM

Right on the button there Wolfgang!

LH, I'm VERY disappointed in you, Don't think much of Elvis indeed;-) I know he was just an ol' country hick, but he sure could SING. I'd give my left nut to be able to sing like that; and, of course, to have the success it brought him.

Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: The Pooka
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:20 AM

Amos - I just saw your answering post now; been away from the 'Cat a bit - but belatedly, Thank you! More food for thought. / See, I'm grappling with cosmologies which suggest that matter doesn't matter, because we're really just vibrations emanating from teenytinylittle strings, and/or holographic projections on a brane. Me, I don't have the branes for it. My son gave me Hawking's latest book for Christmas so it's all his fault, the punk. My kid's I mean, not Hawking's. On the other hand, for a physically-helpless genius that Hawking is pretty damn funny, especilly when he gets going on the Russians and the French. But I digress.

LH, d'y'know, I think some of these far-out Theory-of-Everything physicists are riding their fookin' equations right around to yer very point of view? / I think maybe I'm getting there too. Even if I am a P-brane.

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 11:25 AM

LOL! A little intelligence is a dangerous thing, isn't it, Wolfgang?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 06:31 AM

There is a Mars-ic fringe of the UFO-scene. They scan all the pictures published by NASA, enlarge them, enhance them, mirror them and do all other kinds of processing searching for signs of intelligence. For instance see this picute of a city on Mars. They (both the people and the pictures) are not very convincing to others outside of that scene.

I'm with Sagan on this question who once said regarding the now much less popular canals on the Mars:

Lowell always said that the regularity of the canals was an unmistakable sign that they were of intelligent origin. This is certainly true. The only unresolved question was which side of the telescope the intelligence was on.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Hrothgar
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 03:06 AM

Maybe people from Earth migrated to Mars a long time ago, and did to Mars what we're doing to Earth, only more quickly.

PS - I hadn't even thought about Burroughs' books for 35 years till now!

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 08:46 PM

Yeah, they tried to probe Spaw once, and that one got completely ruined too, I heard... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 08:27 PM

It is certain that there are ruins on Mars.
Unfortunately they're mainly failed U.S. probes !!

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 08:23 PM

Good summation, Amos. Indeed my belief is that the material world issues directly from the world of Spirit, not the other way around.

Material existence, essentially, is a stepping-down of frequency. If you slow a vortex of spiritual intelligence down enough, it then manifests as a finite and limited mind. If you slow it down still further it takes form (gradually, through nature's mechanisms) as a physical structure.

It is then simultaneously existing in three generalized realities...physical, mental, and spiritual.

Conventional science recognizes only the lower two realities, because it is itself limited to them and has arisen out of those levels of consciousness...which are predicated on division, not Unity. What distinguishes the physical and the mental is that they see themselves as limited and finite...separate from all the other limited and finite things around them. This is also the origin of fear and all attack and defense modes of behaviour.

Spirit sees itself as one single Unity of conscious being, expressing itself in an infinite number of apparently separate forms...which are in sum nevertheless one undivided Unity. Spirit is the origin of unconditional Love, because it is all things and fears nothing.

You can use the analogy of water vapour, water, and ice to demonstrate the point. The most physical,static, slowed down form of H2O is ice. It's the most limited in terms of its outer form and definition and it can easily be physically damaged...like the human body.

The next higher form is water...like the mind it is far more flexible...being able to flow freely into any available space...and it's not subject to physical damage, but it can be polluted by toxic substances! (like hate, fear, jealousy, greed, etc.)

The next higher form is water vapour. Like Spirit it is absolutely impervious to any form of damage, and it naturally expands to FILL all the space available to it. It is also H2O at the highest energetic level, so to speak. It cannot be polluted either, although the air or space it may be occupying certainly can be. The Spirit, which is entirely pure at all times, can freely occupy a seriously polluted mind and a sick body, both of which are generally quite unaware of its presence.

The purpose of meditation, contemplation, prayer, and all spiritual endeavour is to become consciously aware of its presence...and then act from its perspective rather than from fear.

This ice/water/water vapour story is just an analogy, but one that serves rather well to demonstrate the general idea, I think.

Clinton - Ohhhh, some people are Soooo funny around here! :-) I think you said that about me one time too a while back, did't you?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 03:34 PM

Pooka:

All I meant was that there is a cosmology which believes that life is not created by matter (a product of structures somehow developing behavior) but rather the other way around -- that Bergson's elan vital is somehow the organizing influence which makes the leap from chaos to order and from stimulus-response to understanding and intent happen.

However, our scientific legacy steers unly to the materially reproducible construct as ameans to knowing, and life being what it is according to this ontology, it is doubtful whether it will ever consent to act as compliasnt, consistant and reproducible under study as material science expects it to.

This is one of the methodological hurdles that are faced by experiments like Puthoffs at SRI, and Rhine at Duke -- they are constrained by a matter-based methodology, but trying to measure (theoretically) the very source of qualitas, which is like trying to force clear mountain spring water into a toothpaste tube.

Therefore it will take a long period of evolution before the twain ever meet with some sort of competency in measuring or understanding.

End of burble....

Regards,

A.

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 02:24 PM

With a gut feeling like that LH, you should probably see a doctor...

LOL!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 01:43 PM

Funny, Peter, I was just thinking about you and Deja Thoris yesterday...I'm not kidding! I too found her downright irresistible in my impressionable teen years...

Those John Carter of Mars books had to be the best thing Edgar Rice Burroughs ever came up with. He wrote pure melodrama, but what an imagination!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Peter T.
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 01:22 PM

Of course there are ruins. Where do you think Deja Thoris lives, she of the Great Barsooms? (a Deja one would like to vu again for the first time). yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 01:16 PM

For sure, Jaze...I don't think you're crazy at all. There have clearly been a number of huge past events in our solar system which have seriously affected this planet and its neighbours. Such an event caused the Great Flood. Another probably wiped out the dinosaurs. Another occured around the time of Exodus and the plagues in Egypt.

There have been numerous reversals of the magnetic pole of the Earth, caused by some factor as yet unexplained. There may also have been physical shifts of the planet on its axis, causing the poles to be relocated, old icecaps to melt, and new ones to form. There is your ice age...a result of a physical planetary shift rather than a slow change in the weather.

At least one very good film was made around a huge planetary event...Deep Impact. Things like this have almost certainly happened in the past and will again in the future.

They may even happen on a regular, cyclical nature, if there is a body, such as a comet or other large object, which has a long elliptical orbit and returns to our solar system periodically.

In fact, that could be Nature's way of cleaning itself up every few thousand years, if all else fails! We certainly don't appear to be willing to do it on our own.

All this is worthy of investigation, through science and every other means at hand. Forewarned is forearmed.

My feeling about Mars is that it was once a planet with much water, a healthy atmosphere, and abundant life. Some of our own people may have come from it to Earth a very long time ago (when even the continents here were quite different in shape and position than they are now). I can't prove it, it's just a gut feeling.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 11:45 AM

Good one, greg!

LOL!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: GUEST,Jaze
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 10:13 AM

Why not? there's a theory that the asteroid belt that orbits just beyond Mars is the remnants of an exploded planet. Some beleive that a part of this struck the earth 10,000 years a go causing worldwide devastaion and extinction(Biblical flood?) It would stand to reason that Mars being closer would have suffered a worse fate. I know, you all think I'm crazy,(share those pills,Little Hawk), but the possibilities ARE fascinating.

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Rollo
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 07:57 AM

This is no question of science, but of religion. Mars is God His "rorschach"-test for mankind. He shows us some blobs of colour and we see faces and butterflies. God invented this kind of test after he started to doubt our sanity when he saw the first tv talkshow.

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: GUEST,fortunato
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 07:42 AM

How disappointing if I shuffle off this mortal coil before intelligent life is discovered in the universe.

Present company excepted, of course.

Little Hawk, I fear there are no ruins on Mars or Men in the Moon. But even more I fear that there is life out there, but we're too fucked up to reach it.

If you took the all the bodies of all those slaughtered in the name of fanaticism, religious or otherwise, in the twentieth century and layed them end to end the bloody chain would reach the moons of Jupiter and beyond. IMAGINE.

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: Hrothgar
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 04:07 AM

Maybe the ruins on Mars are the remains of buildings constructed by Shatner in a previous existence.

How far fetched does a yarn have to be?

Subject: RE: BS: Ruins on Mars???
From: The Pooka
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 10:44 PM

LH - Have you seen Nixon *lately*? This worries me y'see. Not about you; about him. Now this may be a side-effect of reading the "Thatcher Speaks No More" thread where our more-civilized cousins the Brits are hollering about interment at the crossroads with stakes through the heart. But if anybody spots a shifty-eyed ski-nosed visage embedded in the Martian mountains, be very afraid. Of course NASA probably wouldn't acknowledge the discovery. All those smart-ass scientists are Jews y'know, Billy.

Greg Stephens - *LOL*!

Amos - seriously now - structures & behaviors, or whatever they are, which might be at the root nature of all matter is *not yet a scientific question*?? Are you Stringing us along, here? Granted that the Last Word is not Witten, but does he know about this? And if LH is selling on the opposite side, who's Hawking on this one? OK OK, yes I'm bluffing & trying to provoke you; but it's in a Good Cause. Teach us. Really.