BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM

Like I've said several times. He's going on what their prior experience told them was paintballs. He's not going on the substance at all, but rather on other things they saw being fired that were paintballs. And why else would the Israelis be using paintballs with paint the color of blood in them anyway, if not to confuse people about what they're seeing, just as these people are confused about what they're seeing.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM

Still room for doubt I agree.
No mention of the smell I expected.
And he did not investigate as I assumed he would, so I was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 11:06 AM

we have a translation,many thanks to Dave MacKenzie and his daughter's boyfriend.
thread.cfm?threadid=130237&messages=3#2929861

Subject: RE: Any Norwegian speakers please?
From: Dave MacKenzie - PM
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 10:52 AM

" I think they're using something similar to a paintball gun    . Some stuff's running down the wall but I don't think it's blood, it could be of course but...



Oh, they've got a tiny laser sight (referring to a red dot on the deck) . There's a laser sight over there, I'm not sure what it is. Keep away from it.



It looks like something red's run down the wall here, we don't think it's blood we think they've been shooting paintballs or something similar. They're not using live ammunition, it could possibly be rubber bullets, but it's not live.

we saw at least ten men come down from helicopters here and now they've taken control over the bridge Oops shots incoming "

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 10:09 AM

OK let me clear it up now.
I do not support the blockade.
I think it right for activists to challenge it.
I think the activists on the M. Marvara were wrong to attack the boarding parties and the evidence is that no deaths would otherwise have occurred.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:58 AM

Keith, that's not how your words in threads like this one will be perceived after Israeli apartheid is dismantled. Your words will be perceived as protecting and enabling Israeli apartheid. And that is how you will be remembered by those who read your words.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:50 AM

"The passengers have handed over ALL their evidence."

We have seen that they too edit the evidence.
I suspect that the uploading to Youtube of the full version on 11th June was a mistake.

As I keep telling you, BOTH SIDES LIE.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:46 AM

Carol, I have defended neither side.
I have only challenged unsupported assertions.

Lox,
"People were shot on the deck where I was too," he told the news conference. "It is difficult to talk about. I saw people who had been shot in the head, and some were carrying a dead man. There was blood in the stairwell."
http://gazaflotillasurvivors.posterous.com/tag/norwegian

People being shot on his deck puts the event later in time.
Dead and injured were carried down the stairs inside, not down a ladder on deck.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:45 AM

I'm gonna take e break from tis for a while - its way too time consuming.

I will conclude though by pointing out that in this alleged two sided argument, only one side represents a unified front.

The other side is a collection of people from all walks of life and many different countries.

The testimony of The Israelis has been shown to be false in numerous instances.

The evidence provided by the israelis has been shown to have been faked.

The unified single voiced Israeli side has been discredited and offered inconsistent evidence.

The other "side" isn't actually a side at all.

They were not one group united by any flag or other label.

They were a collection of varous groups and individuals.

Yet their testimony is consistent and NONE of the evidence contradicts it.

That many unconnected witnesses, all giving the same testimony is powerful EVIDENCE.

For reasonabe doubt to be cast on it, there would need to be some very hard contradictory evidence.

There is none.

The evidence that exists may not prove some of the allegations, but it is consistent with the testimony of the passengers.

BB seems to think that its a case of Israel against the world.

Keith seems to be following him into that corner.

The Israeli government refuse to allow scrutiny.

The passengers have handed over ALL their evidence.


Somneone is telling lies and hiding the truth.

And that someone is the government of Israel and its military.

Have fun folks - I'm off.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:40 AM

Like I said, Keith, you're wasting my time. You can stay with your supremacist friends there in the dust of history.   I've got some new flotillas and a UN investigation to start focusing my attention on now. History is marching forward and it's leaving you behind. You and people like you will be remembered by history in the same way those who came to the defense of jim crow in the US South are and the way people who came to the defense of apartheid in South Africa are remembered.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:34 AM

He does kneel, infront of a box smeared with red and close enough to smell if it is wet paint.
True.
We know he was not brought down for treatment because of the live feed video and others that showed no one brought down before the soldiers.
True.
He did have every chance to touch and smell it. There is a break in recording, and he stands and kneels within sniffing distance of some.
True.
People are seen casually walking and standing about. Anyone can check and see if I made it up.
True.
In fuller versions of the stairwell quote, the statement is linked to the description of injured being carried down the stairs for treatment. That is why he says "stairwell" not "ladder" or "bulkhead" or "deck."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:22 AM

My statement is based on firm evidence.
If he even THOUGHT it might be blood he would have said so.
He says he thinks it is paintball and does not change his opinion.
That is the evidence for my statement.

Carol, you have falsely claimed that,
Your links were to versions that included the 15 seconds.
False.
You said the video quality was so much better on your second link that it made you change your mind about it being paint.
False
You said that the full sequence was given to UN.
False
You claim that a number of activists are missing.
False.
You claimed that you linked to a video that showed the murder of a named individual.
False.
You claimed that it could show the murder of a missing individual.
False

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:14 AM

Keith,

"Then he poses, kneeling, in front of the blood smiling and saying it is paintball, not live ammunition."

Made up.


"Why was the victim not brought down for treatment like all the others?"

How do you know this assertion to be true?

Made up.


"he had chance to look at it, touch it and smell it!"

But he didn't - he lso had the chance to get his guitar out and sing a song - he didn't do that either.

Made up.


"People are seen casually walking and standing around on the deck throughout the sequence"

Made up.


Thanks for the link to the Quote from the Norwegian by the way,

You seem to have left this bit out:

'The first ammunition I heard striking the ship sounded like paint balls,'' Goffeng said. ''But some people said there had to be glass in them, because of the wounds they caused. There was a lot of blood in the stairwells and then the sound of the ammunition hitting metal changed again - I decided that was the live ammunition. People were yelling, 'Live ammo! Live ammo!'''

Note:

"There was a lot of blood in the stairwells"

Neither you nor I know which stairwells he is talkng about yet, but he hasn't talked about wounded being carried downstairs, so that would suggest the blood isn't coming from them ...

I'm sure your imagination will conjure up a story to explain it all.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:59 AM

Keith, you keep saying that the Norwegian photographer said that he knows that it's not blood. He never said any such thing. You are making it up.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:56 AM

Keith,


This is a conversation between scared people trying to figure out what is going on.

Big guy - "Is this blood?"

(Camera Looking at the ladder)

Norwegian - "I think they're only using paintballs"

(Camera Looking at the norwegian photographer who is looking around whilst taking cover before commenting into camera in his own language)

Big Guy - "ha ha - well heres the real thing" drawing attention to lazer sight.

(Camera points at the lazer sight.)

This within 15 seconds (or so you have stated)


You are either trolling or deliberately lying.


Either way, every poit you have made has been shot down in flames.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:50 AM

I CHALLENGE AND DEFY YOU TO PRODUCE ONE SINGLE THING THAT I HAVE MADE UP.

I have argued solely from video evidence and authentic quotes.
You have just realised that it is obvious who is producing shit.
About time.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:43 AM

You're wasting my time, Keith. You're making shit up and wasting my time. I look forward to the results of the UN investigation. I also look forward to all of the many future flotillas and aid convoys, and the eventual end of the siege. The people you are defending have already lost. They just haven't figured it out yet. They will before too much longer.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:27 AM

The laser is not seen until after the sequence.
People are seen casually walking and standing around on the deck throughout the sequence and into the laser sequence.

You are making an arse of yourself now.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:22 AM

"I say that it is what anyone would have done."

Sure - very reasonable - unless its 5am and you are surrounded by armed boats and helicopters and scared passengers with a machine gun sight shining on the deck next to you and you are uneasy about what is going to happen next or whether anyone has been killed or is about to be killed, in which case you would look around and watch your back much like the guy in the video.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:00 AM

sorry, here.
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/10/exclusive_journalist_smuggles_out_video_of

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:45 AM

I did not say that we see that.
I say that it is what anyone would have done.
Anyone here can watch the clip and know who is being ridiculous.

Carol, you said that the full sequence was shown to the UN.
Here is Iara Lee on Democracy Today with the footage she is about to show UN.
Some of it is shown. She says twice that it is "raw, uncensored footage."
We see the "blood" sequence, with the 15 seconds deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:07 AM

"You both look ridiculous in your denials of the obvious."

Not as ridiculous as you do making stuff up that isn't even in that 15 second gap, let alone the rest of the video, or indeed in your attempt to describe a video on general worldwide release as being in any way concealed.

He doesn't sniff the blood, He doesn't kneel anywhere near the blood, he's wondering whats going to happen, and its on a video that has been published openly for the whole world to see.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:57 AM

I am sorry Emma, but I will not accept uncorroborated witness statements from either side.
Both sides lie.
I have only argued from the evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:46 AM

"Emma, when the first fire and casualties happened is not trivial to this discussion"

Keith, if you look back over this long thread you will see many instances where you have made similar challenges to information in my posts as to substantial evidence both from eyewitnesses and one of the soldiers themselves about where the first fire came from which I have addressed in each instance although you continued to repeat the same refuted statements from the initial attempts to blame the victims for their deaths

and......

you are still doing this!

and now on the Saville report thread too!

Please may we move on there are important issues and it is gratifying to see that at least one outcome of this attack is the international attention and approbation that has pressurized Israel to allow more humanitarian aid through to the beseiged beleaguered Gazan population.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:43 AM

You both look ridiculous in your denials of the obvious.
I will leave it at that, at least until we get the translation I have requested.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:37 AM

Kieth,

Do you know what the difference is between the visdeo we are discussing and the videos covered up by the IDF?


Neither do I - because the Ones Covered up by the IDF were ... um ... covered up.

Unlike the one we are discussing.

Nothing was concealed, so you have no point to argue.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:34 AM

The insignificance of the deleted 15 seconds seems obvious to me but Keith keeps going on about it.
Otherwise we might have moved on.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:31 AM

"I think he would have made something of it had it been blood."

No, I think he would have taken cover and had his eyes and ears open for what might happen next.

I have an amusing image in my head of a ship full of pancking activists at 5am in the morning, surrounded by a hostile Navy who are firing weapons that may or may not be paintball guns (as far as they know without the benefit of hindsight), hiding from a machine guns lazer spotlight, and scared that there may be a chance that they could be killed, and in the middle of it all stands Keith oblivious to all that but declaring (not sure to whom) that this is absolutely outrageous whilst sniffing the ladder to inspect the chemical composition of the fluid on it.

How very British.

And not actually very amusing at all.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:23 AM

Emma, when the first fire and casualties happened is not trivial to this discussion.
The meaning of the deleted 15 seconds seems obvious to me but Carol and Lox keep challenging it.
Otherwise we might have moved on.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:19 AM

I rest my case!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM

That was in answer to the question, "Is it blood?"
BLOOD?
BLOOD?
BLOOD?

It is paint ball. Not live ammunition.
I think he would have made something of it had it been blood.
Expressed outrage.Concern. Something.
Had there been blood at that stage he would have mentioned it in the interviews he gave later.
There was no blood then.
None of the activists are saying there was blood there, just happy to let people believe it and not show the few seconds that make it clear.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM

"There are a couple of points being obscured by all this back and forth about trivia"

Absolutely Don - in fact it almost seems a deliberate ploy to tie people up by having to deflect from their main points by continually having to address what are basically distractionary details as if in some way any small inconsistency by someone caught up in the panic of an armed attack negates your summary of the main issues

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM

""I am convinced that the commission's uncovering of the facts will prove that the goals and actions of the state of Israel and the IDF were appropriate defensive actions in accordance with the highest international standards," said Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.""

So we can be certain that there is no intention to pre-empt the inquiry's findings, and of course no bias on the part of Mr Netanyahu.......NOT!

Israel's whitewash budget is already overstretched.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:09 AM

He did not bother to tell us how he knew it was paint, but it is simply not believable that he would not make sure that it was not blood.

Except that he didn't tell us he knew it was paint. He never said that at all. He said, "I think they're firing some kind of paintball looking stuff". You're just flagrantly making stuff up now, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM

That 15 seconds could not have been their favorite bit if they chose to delete it from some versions.
He did not bother to tell us how he knew it was paint, but it is simply not believable that he would not make sure that it was not blood.

They deleted a lot of stuff from the short versions. They deleted a lot of stuff that was completely neutral, too, like journalists typing into their computers. You're barking up the wrong tree with that one. They edited for length, not content. Everything was released. Had the Israelis not confiscated the rest of her footage, she would release that, too. And speaking of that, once again, it's the Israelis who are concealing footage. They are refusing to release all of the footage that they have confiscated (what they didn't destroy). So if concealment is a sign of guilt, then I think we can safely say that the Israelis are already convicted.

How are you getting on with the "missing" ?

This answer from American activist aboard might help.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Have you unidentified who those missing are?

IARA LEE: Obviously, we cannot jump to conclusions, but they are not hurt, they are not injured, they are not killed. They disappeared. I don't know. It's something that must be investigated. I mean, some people even speculate that we had spies, so maybe some of these missing people were, you know, Mossad agents. We don't know. We need to investigate. Were they thrown off the boat?

If they are not killed, your "murder" video lied both about the victim, and even that it showed a killing at all.

I guess we'll have to wait to find out. I have not tried to contact anyone yet, and I might not have time until much later today. But like I said, the nurses, and many other people report that there were more than nine bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:03 AM

""( gelitin, margerine, etc are used as base materials for some explosives)""

They are also foodstuffs used to prevent starvation. And tell me how you think cement fits into any weapons scenario. Maybe they're making it into cannon balls?

Ther are a couple of points being obscured by all this back and forth about trivia.

1. An act of piracy did take place in international waters, and had it been committed by any organisation other than the Israeli Defence Force, not one voice would have been raised in trying to defend the action.

2. Those on board of the ship which was attacked by armed men, tried to defend against the incursion (as was their legal right), using only such weapons as came to hand. They were obviously not spoiling for a fight, or one might have expected them to be better armed.

3. Of those defenders, eight died of multiple wounds, inflicted at short range, by nine millimetre sidearms, and one was shot in the head with a round commonly used in shotguns.

4. None of the attackers were killed. Even when the defenders managed to acquire handguns from them, these were discarded without being used.

None of the above suggests that the defenders were doing any more than defending their vessel against government sponsored pirates.

I don't much care for Hamas, but it is only a political faction, and collective punisment for all citizens of Gaza is clearly forbidden under international law.

Israel is, and for a long time has been, flouting that law.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:01 AM

On the subject of Espen, we need not speculate for long as I've e-mailed him to ask him about that moment.

I suspect he's quite busy so you may have to be patient.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:58 AM

"He did not bother to tell us how he knew it was paint, but it is simply not believable that he would not make sure that it was not blood."

It is simply not believable to expect a guy who is in the middle of a siege, surrounded by boats firing projectiles, with a helicopter overhead emitting a lazer sight spot light, at 5am, surrounded by frightened people, to start sniffing blood and examining it in detail.

If I was in that situation, I would be alert first and foremost to my own safety, and after that, as a reporter, to the surrounding activity, which you must admit kieth served as a distraction to the analyisi of the red liquid.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:52 AM

That 15 seconds could not have been their favorite bit if they chose to delete it from some versions.
He did not bother to tell us how he knew it was paint, but it is simply not believable that he would not make sure that it was not blood.

How are you getting on with the "missing" ?

This answer from American activist aboard might help.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Have you unidentified who those missing are?

IARA LEE: Obviously, we cannot jump to conclusions, but they are not hurt, they are not injured, they are not killed. They disappeared. I don't know. It's something that must be investigated. I mean, some people even speculate that we had spies, so maybe some of these missing people were, you know, Mossad agents. We don't know. We need to investigate. Were they thrown off the boat?

If they are not killed, your "murder" video lied both about the victim, and even that it showed a killing at all.

Both sides lie Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:43 AM

Keith, the full version of that video was shown at the UN by the woman who was responsible for making it. She released a series of short versions before she showed it at the UN. Each one had a different amount of footage in it. She didn't try to conceal anything, however, because if she had, you would never have seen that segment that you're talking about. She was the one who released it, and that's why your buddies had access to it. Had she wanted to conceal it, you would never have seen it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:35 AM

their own projectiles going back to them.''

This is exactly what I said was happening, and you said I was wrong. I said they were lobbing the stun grenades back at them, and you said I was wrong. If you want to accept this guy's version of events, you have to concede that I was not wrong.

I don't dispute the fire hose thing, though. The passengers testify that they were using fire hoses on the zodiacs. But if the Israelis don't want to be soaked with a fire hose, all they have to do is get out of range of them. That's not at all hard to do. They don't have to fire live ammunition to defend themselves from water from fire hoses. Especially since they weren't even on the ship when the fire hoses were being trained on them.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:29 AM

"And you can't explain that red substance dripping down from the hatch as being paint from paint pellets"

Espen Goffeng did, and he had chance to look at it, touch it and smell it!

No he didn't. He just said that that's what he thought they were firing. He never said that he had checked it out and found it to be paint. He said "I think they're firing some paintball looking stuff". He says "I think". Not, "I know", or even "I believe". And he doesn't address the actual stuff on the wall, but only what he thinks they're firing. He's making an assumption based on prior information gleaned in a different context. Had he checked it out and found it to be paint, he would have said, "No, it's paint." Or maybe, "I checked it out, and it feels and smells like paint". But he didn't do that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:17 AM

"you have to ask why they took the trouble to edit out that 15 second sequence."

Good question.

It was counterpruductive to do so, and in the end proved unnecessary.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:51 AM

And..
you have to ask why they took the trouble to edit out that 15 second sequence.

If not in order to create a lie, why else?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:51 AM

Carol,

You gave the following respons to BB,

"All of the ships of the last flotilla, including the Mavi Marmara and the Rachel Corrie, volunteered to be inspected by a neutral third party like the UN. Since the government of Israel turned down that offer, it proves that weapons are not the reason they are imposing the blockade."

On reflection, it would seem that the reason may be that the UN is unanimous in its hatred of Israel.

It follows that the UN can't be trusted to make sure arms don't get in to Gaza.

Or another way of looking at that might be to say that the UN would have been compplicit in the provision of arms to Gazans.

The UN (a forum in which all the countries of the world meet to discuss global issues) is just against Israel and thats that.

I'm guessing all those resolutions aren't legitimate for that reason.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:49 AM

You can find the quote here, so we know that if the Israelis did fake that clip, they created an accurate reconstruction of the actual event.
But that would be so silly, wouldn't it!
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/in-their-wake-20100605-xl3e.html?feed=html

The blood video.
Lox, the question is repeatedly and loudly asked.
"BLOOD?"
There is a break in recording.
He appears smiling, standing and then kneeling to let us see, and tells us it is paintball.

But you and Carol know better?!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:43 AM

As an amusing aside, I can't help but be amused that David Trimble, who has spent his entire political career clarifying that he is British and not Irish, should be sold to us now as an "Irish Nobel Peace Laureate".


BB,

If Israel is to be trusted, why won't they let an independant investigation happen?

Why won't they even allow their own investigation to investigate properly.

The rules of the Israeli investigation effectively give the IDF immunity.

What a waste of time.

Its a cover up and the IDF and the Israeli government have something to hide.

Witholding information is admissable as evidence of having something to hide in court.

Israel has somnething to hide.

No amount of accusing the whole world of being Israel haters can get them out of that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:33 AM

"It was pre helicopter and all he had to do was go up and sniff it.
And that is no doubt what he did.
Then he poses, kneeling, in front of the blood smiling and saying it is paintball, not live ammunition."

Eh? ... He was a good 15 feet away from the Ladder - the camera is pointing away from the ladder to him where he is kneeling, and the fluid is pouring down from the top of the ladder ... How could he be kneeling down sniffing it? ...

You present as creative an interpretation of what the video shows as I could possibly imagine.


"I am happy to accept that the boat video is a fake if you like."

What I like has nothing to do with it.


"Espen Goffeng, a Norwegian, said: ''I looked over the rail and saw the zodiacs. It seemed hopeless for the Israelis - they tried to lock-on their grappling hooks, but they were hit by the fire hoses and their own projectiles going back to them.''"

Where can I find this?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:20 AM

"And you can't explain that red substance dripping down from the hatch as being paint from paint pellets"

Espen Goffeng did, and he had chance to look at it, touch it and smell it!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:54 AM

Keith, they don't keep saying "blood" loudly. The one guy asks if it's blood, and people say, "what?" and he has to repeat himself several times (more loudly each time) because they can't hear him. You're right that the part where the one guy answers him is not in the ones I posted. I saw that part in a different video and thought it was in the ones I posted. However, the guy who answers doesn't say it's blood. What he says is that he "thinks they're firing some kind of paint ball stuff". He doesn't examine the substance. He just says that this is what he thinks they are firing. He's doing exactly what I said he was doing. He's making an assumption based on something he's seen in a different context. He had some awareness that paint balls were being fired, so he assumed that the red stuff he was looking at was from paint balls. At that point in time, he is unaware of what's going on in other parts of the ship.

We have numerous passenger reports that the Israelis started firing live rounds before they boarded the ship. We can see blood dripping down from an open hatch. We know that the Israeli government has lie about many of the things they have reported about the flotilla and it's participants. This is proven fact. We have every reason to disbelieve what the Israelis tell us, and no reason at all to disbelieve the passengers who report live fire prior to the Israelis boarding. And you can't explain that red substance dripping down from the hatch as being paint from paint pellets. There's too much of it, and it's not behaving like paint from paintball guns.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:13 AM

Carol, I hope these are mistakes and not dishonesty.
The two versions of the "blood" scene you posted, 10thJune 2.24pm and 8.11pm DID both have the scene deleted where it is identified as paint.
You changed your mind about it being blood not paint because, you said, of the improved video quality.
The video quality is just as good on the first version.

You just said " Their first impulse is to believe that the substance is paint."
Not true. They keep saying "blood" very loudly (in all versions!).

No rational person could see the whole sequence and believe it is blood.
It makes you and Lox look ridiculous, and I am happy to leave it there.

One last question on the "blood". What happened to the victim? Why was the victim not brought down for treatment like all the others?
We would have noticed because it was well before the landings.
The first to come were the two soldiers, then wounded activists later.