BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:39 PM

Beardedbruce, I'm just reporting on how things are being done.

I never said I approve of them.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:38 PM

freda,

Still reading, but so far nothing I do not agree with...


"3) Human rights for all.
We hold the fundamental human rights codified in the Universal Declaration to be precisely universal, and binding on all states and political movements, indeed on everyone. Violations of these rights are equally to be condemned whoever is responsible for them and regardless of cultural context. We reject the double standards with which much self-proclaimed progressive opinion now operates, finding lesser (though all too real) violations of human rights which are closer to home, or are the responsibility of certain disfavoured governments, more deplorable than other violations that are flagrantly worse. We reject, also, the cultural relativist view according to which these basic human rights are not appropriate for certain nations or peoples."

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:37 PM

Oh, yeah... the other preferred response to insurgent violence is to go shoot all of the men, women, and children in the houses nearest to where the bomb went off. Either way, I guess these methods save the US a lot of time and money, since they don't have to bother with any investigations.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:36 PM

CarolC,,

Than why are we wasting american lives on the ground? Are you advocating that we just nuke the entire country?

I do not see that any of the PRESENT administration agree with your "preferred response".

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:36 PM

This comment on cultural relativism (the view that people within certain ethnic groups or social groups have different rights and responsibilities) is one of the big issues of the decade. It impacts particularly within religions, where religious or ethnic leaders like to maintain their own standards of morality, and promote those standards as a way of demonising others who dont follow those standards. Effectively they can deny their followers the legal and social rights that other members of society have.

I believe that western governments are coming to the view that all their citizens are equally entitled to protection under the law. This means that civil divorces will take precedent over religious divorces, and minorities will have to go outside their leadership, or change aspects of their their culture, to achieve social equality.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:31 PM

Nobody investigates the war crimes committed by the insurgents because they don't ever intend to use a legal means to bring the perpetrators to justice. Remember that the US still calls most of the shots for how things like that are to be handled in Iraq.

The reason they don't intend to use any legal means to bring insurgents to justice is because the preferred response to insurgent violence is to bomb the shit out a few towns or cities instead.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:28 PM

That emphasis on liberals as the source of all evil is an American thing, BB. It's interesting that in Oz, our conservative party (and its very conservative) is called the Liberal Party. and while I said the British army have created a reputation for being ethical in Iraq, they have a different history in other countries (see the wind that shakes the barley). However it is also remarkable that the British walked out of India without a fight - they created history by accepting a negotiation to give up power.

I don't accept that "liberals" established the precedent that a group is exempt from responsibility for their actions, if they are "politically correct" - it is far more likely that groups are exempt from the responsibilities of their actions if they are in government or if they have a lot of money. it is "liberals" or human right activists from many sides of politics who evolved the notion of human rights.

you may be interested in reading the Euston Manifesto.

This manifesto is put together by a bunch of lefties in the UK. It states a number of principles that you may strongly disagree with, but also decries anti-democratic and reactionary regimes that oppress their own peoples and movements that aspire to do so. "We draw a firm line between ourselves and those left-liberal voices today quick to offer an apologetic explanation for such political forces."

It also comments: We reject the double standards with which much self-proclaimed progressive opinion now operates, finding lesser (though all too real) violations of human rights which are closer to home, or are the responsibility of certain disfavoured governments, more deplorable than other violations that are flagrantly worse. We reject, also, the cultural relativist view according to which these basic human rights are not appropriate for certain nations or peoples. The manifesto also takes an opinion on Israel and the US that would please you. What it seems to be about, from my quick reading of it - is moving away from blame towards responsibility - and solutions.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:10 PM

My US cousin said of his grandson, - he will make a good Marine -, I asked him does that mean he will be an expert killer, -only when he has to- came the reply.
So that means innocent families, women and children not excluded.
The time has long passed when the US can cover up fo their murdering scum.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:08 PM

freda,

If there have been crimes committed by US troops, they should be investigated, and the guilty punished.


"Show me ONE investigation by the other side about their massacres and war crimes... "


I just note a lack of any desire on some people's part to investigate any of the crimes other than those the US is accused of- thus the lynching. Fifty years ago, it was the color of a person's skin- NOW it is the color of the uniform being worm.

It is the LIBERALS in the US who have established the precedent that a group is exempt from responsibility for their actions, if they are "politically correct", and guilty without investigation if they are in the opposition ( to the liberal viewpoint). Lately, the conservatives have picked up on this, and applied it as well- WHICH I THINK IS WRONG! But the LIBERALS ase the ones who made it a precedent, and US law is based on PRECEDENTS.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Kaleea
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 02:52 PM

war means people kill people. the decider decided to show the world that he is the boss in charge of deciding & send human beings into a war where they see the constant mayhem of a war with no rules, except the rules that they are supposed to be following.
well, gee, wasn't this good ol us of a founded on the murdering of people who did not have guns, slaughtering people in their homes as they slept, giving out blankets with the smallpox disease to cold people, forcing people at gunpoint to march to horrible places where they could no longer live as they had? etc, etc.
if the deciders of this world would instead be leaders and lead by an example of honor and peace, perhaps we would be led to peace.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 02:26 PM

BB, did you read the last sentence of Ake's post of 02:00 PM today? he said..

"Does anyone see any difference between the murderous Saddam regime and the kind "liberators" who safeguard democracy and the children of Iraq.....Ake "

I don't think anyone is holding up Iraqi insurgents as angels of mercy. As you know key UN personnel including Kofi Annan, the secretary general, and Hans Blix, the chief weapons inspector, disputed the legal status of the invasion of Iraq under international law. This means invading forces (the UK, US, Australian troops and others)are theoretically responsible for war crimes merely by the fact of being the instigators, the invaders.

However the behaviour of the different forces in Iraq is marked - the British soldiers have a reputation for fighting within accepted rules of war.

Even President Bush has accepted that American troops need training in moral and ethical standards. An article in the Guardian today comments that General George Casey - the highest-ranking US general in Iraq - ordered the training two days after US troops shot dead a pregnant mother and her cousin as they travelled to a maternity hospital. Lieutenant general Peter Chiarelli, the commander of Multinational Corps Iraq, commented:

"As military professionals, it is important that we take time to reflect on the values that separate us from our enemies," he said. "The challenge for us is to make sure the actions of a few do not tarnish the good work of the many."

exactly the comment Ake was making.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 02:05 PM

Ake,


"Where are Keith, Teribus,Bearded Bruce, Susu's Hobby...all those who used to lecture us on patriotism and democracy...Hypocrits all!!"

like most reasonable people, I am waiting to see what the results of the investigation are before lynching anyone.

On the other hand, I have NEVER seen ANY condemnation of the murder of innocent civilians by the insurgents, by you or other anti-Bushites, here on Mudcat.

Show me ONE investigation by the other side about their massacres and war crimes...

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 02:00 PM

Doug may be a misguided individual.
He may lack the "milk of human kindness"
He may try to apologise for this atrocity, but at least he has the guts to acknowledge that something beyond the usual run of the mill butchery has taken place.

The rest of the apologists for Iraq are keeping their heads well down.
Where are Keith, Teribus,Bearded Bruce, Susu's Hobby...all those who used to lecture us on patriotism and democracy...Hypocrits all!!

McGrath points out the biggest disgrace in this episode.
That America has returned to the failed policy practised during the Vietnam War. Terror routinely used against civilians, designed to make the Iraqis less likely to assist or protect the insurgents.

Does anyone see any difference between the murderous Saddam regime and the kind "liberators" who safeguard democracy and the children of Iraq.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:00 PM

The Haditha killings didn't happen two moths ago. They happened last November. It was in March that Time Magazine broke the story, and the authorities were forced to set up an investigation.

Just because a murderer is used as a scapegoat by his superiors doesn't make him any less a murder. And it doesn't make them any less murderers either.

Subject: Massacre at Haditha
From: GUEST,Ifor
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 12:51 PM

The Iraqi town of Haditha has been the scene of a massacre of 24 Iraqi civilians including women,children and old people.
The massacre was the work of US soldiers belonging to the third battalion of First Regiment of the First Marine Division.
This was not a frenzied outburst ...the killings took place over a five hour period on the 19th November2005 but has only recently become known to the wider American public.
Is this Iraq's equivalent of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam in 1968...a symbol of violence of the occupation?
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 11:02 AM

I will not condemn until the facts are in, anymore than I'll condemn someone for anything before the verdict is rendered. "Innocent until proven guilty" is the basis of the justice system in the US, Canada, and Britain.

And "Rusty" Calley certainly had his career destroyed over My Lai -- and in my own opinion was a scapegoat for his superiors, who not only knew of the coverup but approved the actions of Calley and his men.

But read the list I posted earlier, and if you don't know about them research them. It's a very, very partial list of human atrocities.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: dianavan
Date: 31 May 06 - 10:03 PM

"Obviously something very wrong happend there."

Thats an understatement.

What is even more dreadful is the attempt to cover it up with such blatant lies. How can you defend the lies, Doug?

This situation happened two months ago and we are just now getting to the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 06 - 09:59 PM

It's not particularly the USA, Doug. This is the kind of thing that happens in military occupations, both the killings and the cover-ups. There are plenty of comparable instances in the history of all empires and occupations - British, French, Russian, Israeli, Iraqi... And in the history of the manifest destiny continental empire that became the USA. Sometimes the regimes involved, and their apologists, are left wing, sometimes they are right wing.

And sometimes the harshest critics of atrocities are people who might be assumed to be natural apologists for them. For example when Enoch Powell denounced the Conservative Government of which he was a member for trying to cover-up atrocities in the Hola Camp in Kenya, where detainees were beaten to death. "Let justice be done though the heavens fall" ("fiat justicia ruat coelum") is not an especially left liberal sentiment, it is a principle that has guided decent people of all political tendencies in these kinds of situations.

Whatever may be the case about the actual killings, the military cover-up isn't at this time a matter of allegations. The initial accounts of the killings, sustained for a number of months till Time Magazine broke the story back in March, have been confirmed as having been completely false.

In some ways the cover-up is in the central issue, more especially in the light of the fact that the responsibility for investigating both the killings and the cover-up are the military. When atrocities are brought to light the effect is likely to be to reduce the likelihood of more atrocities, at least in the short run; when cover-ups succeed, that increases the likelihood of more stuff that need to be covered up.

And it's worth remembering that in the case of My Lai, where the cover-up was successful for quite a bit longer than has been the case with the Haditha alleagtions, no one appears to have been punished for their part in it, or to have had their career damaged. Including the young Colin Powell. (And the same has been true in the British context in regard to Bloody Sunday.)

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Bobert
Date: 31 May 06 - 09:24 PM

Good 'un, Dougie...

I been missin' yer zingers... Now I feel loved again...

Now, come on over an get a big ol' hug from this "left-wing radical", Big Guy....

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: DougR
Date: 31 May 06 - 09:12 PM

I think it might be a good idea to wait until this episode has been totally vetted before we hang anybody or begin hanging crepe. Obviously something very wrong happend there. Let's wait and see what the investigation being made turns up.

Of course anytime something terrible happens that can be laid at the feet of the good ole USofA, we can always count on Bopert to rejoice and join the choir of the left-wing liberals.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 06 - 09:07 PM

I see there are supposed to be two inquiries - one into the alleged massacre, and the other into the cover-up. That at least could be a step forward from My Lai, where all the attention was on the people who carried out the massacre, and not on the support structure that colluded in it, and on the question of whether that collusion reflected a military culture (that word again...) which encouraged and facilitated this kind of atrocity.

There is a previous thread on the alleged Haditha massacxre (BS: Iman shames the U.S military?. One of the issues that come up is the exitence of some indications that there is a prevalant, and apparently approved, policy that when roadside bombs are involved US troops are expected to carry out reprisals on Iraqis in nearby houses.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Bobert
Date: 31 May 06 - 08:17 AM

Yeah, Mick, you are absolutely right... Guess Bush and his folks weren't interested in crossing the bridge into the new millenium...

And, yes, historians will one day be arguing over which Bush was the worst president ever... Right now, Junior is puttin' a butt whup on his daddy for that distinction...

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 May 06 - 08:04 AM

He wasn't an idiot, but a very clever man. Just look how much money his rich weapon selling mates have made...

Don't believe me eh, ok, I'm with you on the stupid bit, then... but I'm HALF right...

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 May 06 - 08:00 AM

Maybe the biggest failure of the many failures of this administration is to have squandered a chance for real change in the world. When the September 11 attack occurred, the goodwill of the world was with the USA. We had a real opportunity to utilize a rare moment and be a starting point for real, positive change. This idiot we have for a President turns this rare opportunity into a modern day "Crusade" which has led us to this. History will judge him severely for it, and I hope we, as a nation, can recover.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Bobert
Date: 31 May 06 - 07:43 AM

So true, Rap, so true...

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:09 PM

I took your point, Bobert. And my point is that this seems all too, too human. We have never seemed to learn the lesson in Matthew 26:52.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:04 PM

But then, there was Myall Creek....

No country that I'm aware of is immune from either giving or receiving....

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:03 PM

Interstin', Rap, but I think that you are missin' the point I made...

In these days and times if we are going to "out-frame" the folks who are responsible for war crimes we must be willing to take ***their*** language and use it back on them... We have repeatedely been ***out-framed*** and if we are going to stop the next Haditha it is going to be up to us to take up that language that they have used to justify war crimes and turn it back on them....

There is no arguement about inhumaity... It is up to us to make inhumity unacceptable thru whatever ***language*** we need to use to win the batller of the "framing"...

I agree, inhuminty is inhumanity... Problem is that we have had decades of this language and it has lost it's ability to move folks opinions.... The "ad-men" have put study and control groups together and pitched various terms at them to see how they react and then then come up with a "product" to ram down Joe Six Pack's throat...

That product is their "brand" and if we are goingt o disrupt their "brand" then we are going to have to do it by usurping their language... Yeah, no reinveting the wheel... Jus' bent it an' throw it back into the mix...

This is a start... Is is going to change "the culture" overnight??? No, but by using the graoundwork that the war-mongers themselves have used to justify "inhumanity" it's s good start...

Think about it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:03 PM

Of course, with that one, the problem was that a railway was REALLY what the high command wanted - but the line command idiots in charge said "oh - you want us to build a railway, ok, nod, nod, wink, wink"...

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:59 PM

It's in the "etc." categories.

I couldn't face adding more. Unfortunately I know of too, too many more.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:58 PM

Rapaire,

one for the Aussies to never forget...

Burma Railway

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:48 PM

Let's see:

Durham Death March
Cherry Valley
Nanking
Khemer Rouge
Malmedy
Katyn Forest
Glencoe
St. Bartholomew's Day
Setif, Algeria
Oradour-sur-Glane
Sant' Anna di Stazzema
Peterloo
Beslan
Yakaolang
Evin Prison
Bitlis
Bande
Le Paradis
Kalavryta
Cefalonia
Texel
Myall Creek
Gatumba
Sharpeville
Montsegur
Drogheda
Seven Oaks
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc....

It's human, not "cultural."

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:12 PM

Actually, depending on how the term "culture" is defined, it's both...

The Washington Post in tryin' to excuse their piss poor performance as jounrnalists in not challengeing Bush during the mad-dash-to-Iraq used the term "culture" and I kinda understood it in the way they used it... They admitted to falling into a "culture", also called "office speak" and therefore din't challenge the Bush war drum beaters...

But, yes, bottom line, it is all about "humanity", or lack there of...

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:05 PM

BTW, it's not 'culturally' related, it's 'humanity' related!

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:18 PM

Yeah, they'll be bustin' in our houses and killin' off our families while sayin', "Hey, we learned it all from you."

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:15 PM

And the USA (collectively) wonders why "The rest of the world doesn't seem to like us"?

When you set yourself up ABOVE the rest of the world (and fail - as you always will - to demonstrate that you really ARE), they will see you no different from someone like Hitler, who also did the same.

It has been said many times before (and denounced by the USA, of course!) that the USA has only its own wilful actions to blame for WHY the Bin Laden message falls on fertile ground!

"Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind"

Now, when China dominates the world...

Subject: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:55 PM

Well, well, well...

Seems there's a pettern here... No wonder Bush wounldn't sign onto the idea of a World Court...

Seriously, folks, isn't it time for the United States to satnd for something a little loftier than allowing itself to become no better than the bad guys??? Seesm that we have become the bad guys,,, No, make that the beddest of bad guys...

I don't blame the troops... This is a cultural issue and it's high time for the United Sates to get of the friggin' low road...