BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 06:36 PM

For argument's sake, let's say, the government in power, through direct negotiations with the Assembly of First Nations (the only group that seems to have any chance of representing all the groups), agreed to deal with all the demands derectly related to Native issues (even giving them special consultation provisions on enviromental issues impacting their lands). I suspect that even this may not satisfy Spence, and some of her supporters. Nor would it satisfy many within the "Idle No More" movement (well, at least as stated in the attached article) - which seem to go far beyond demands related to native issues. The movement, made up of a variety of interests, some from beyond native ones, seems to be challenging the current elected majority government's right to govern. Can that element be sustainable, once if the native isues are on tract to some form of solution?


idle-no-more-co-founder-supports-spence-not-blockades

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 06:12 PM

""At this point Spence can ask, "In exchange for what?""

IMO, it is puzzling that Spence seems to be stuck on the notion that the Govenor General (appointed by Harper to representing the Queen) actually has political power and influence in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 06:05 PM

Settlements like Attawapiscat can exist only with government handouts and royalty payments, much of which is mis-spent and is not accounted for.
Nothing they can make, sell or produce can pay for the housing, schools, health care and other infrastructure needed to keep them viable.

The solutions are unpopular, but must be faced by the peoples of these outlying settlements and the government.

I think, however, the muddling along will continue despite the rhetoric and stunts like the so-called hunger strike. Calls on the British crown are nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 05:43 PM

At this point Spence can ask, "In exchange for what?"

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 04:26 PM

CBC
Quebec Grand Chief calls on Spence to end hunger strike

CTV
mulcair-calls-on-spence-to-end-hunger-strike

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 01:55 PM

The CBC website has an interesting story about Matthew Coon Come's advice to Chief Spence; in effect, be careful to make demands that the government can grant without losing too much face. Insisting on the active participation of the Governor General is not one of those demands, for it would cause constitutional angst that will draw attention away from the First Nations' primary agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: number 6
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 11:40 AM

omnibus bill

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 12:01 PM

999
I have always have had an interest in approaches that obtain social change.

With this interest, a few years back I met a retired government official, one who had a lead government role in dealing with a major social uprising on an issue. I questioned him on how it evolved, his role and how it ended up.

He said that major public protests, that got "big media attention" was actually useful to the government. I was surprised and asked him how that could be. He said that people focusing on publically protesting took the energy out of the movement and once it "petered out" (those involved were comforted that they had, done something that seemed significant on TV) there was little energy and focus left for the actual negotiations. He said, those reduced pressures left us "government folks" with more "wiggle room" to initiate less severe measures with the movement leaders.

That conversation has remained with me, and the message that sometimes, what seems to be happening may not be what is occuring at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:57 AM

Good question, Ed. I think when Spence started her hunger strike--define it how you will--her idea was to get Harper and the GG to meet with native leaders. In that she was successful. However, many others folks got involved and brought with them their agendas. I haven't read any news today but I expect the same 'reporters' will be spinning what they saw, heard, think or wish to propound. Too many cooks . . . We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:44 AM

DTG,
I am not sure I agree with your historic assessment.

Sometimes, the threat (and fear) of agressive actions alone moves "the center" (and those in power) towards a resolution and creates new opportunities for others, those open and well-positioned to a new (and peaceful) avenues towards a solution. However, I agree that it is indeed rare for governments to voluntarily directly "cave in" to terrorists or those threating such actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:36 AM

999
In an early post in this thread, I questioned if the current native movement had defined "success", and would recognize the opportunity for success when it was at hand. I still have that question.

Hopefully, the personal gratification of being part of "the group effort" does not overtake the original reasons for it occuring and identifying and seizing the best opportunity for success for themselves, when it raises its head. There are indeed issues that go beyond the native issues, and likely sympathies for the plight of other Canadians. IMO, a first priority shoul be to take care of their own issues, and there will be opportunities to support others with their issues when that is done.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:36 AM

But, it's much harder to find the solutions, and even harder to get people to agree to them and how they can be resolved

Spot on, Ed. And at the risk of sounding like a stuck record just use history to see which methods pay off and which don't. Threats and terrorism have never done as well as reconcilliation and peace.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:26 AM

""Gotcha, and I agree""
Earlier you referred to a folk song for a message.
I refer to the lyrics of one for a message also:



Turn! Turn! Turn! (to Everything There Is a Season)
by The Byrds

To everything - turn, turn, turn
There is a season - turn, turn, turn
And a time for every purpose under heaven...

...A time to gain, a time to lose
A time to rend, a time to sew
A time to love, a time to hate
A time of peace, I swear it's not too late!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:10 AM

Gotcha, and I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:05 AM

It is not hard to find problems anywhere, 999. But, it's much harder to find the solutions, and even harder to get people to agree to them and how they can be resolved (even on this site).

I believe the native groups have done a good job at drawing public and government awareness and attention to their plight. However, IMO, it is time to put equel attention to defining an accomplishable solution. Maybe a "one size fit's all" solution is not an answer. But, if not, it is up to those directly involved to focus and define the solutions, unless they want others to do that for them (which has not seemed to have been very productive in the past).

While I expect public sympathies lies with resolving these issues for those in the native communities, such support can be "fickle", and be just as easily lost. My perspectiv is it is in the best interests of the native community to focus on bridging the internal divides (which exist for some of the reasons you state)and come forward with reasonable solutions and a process to initiate them.

As often stated, many of the problems go back many years. So, it is unlikely that making progress to resolve them all will likely not happen over-night. But, that does not mean there can not be a current focus on the more urgent in the short term and longer term plan to tackle the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 10:15 AM

I agree in part. We have been throwing money at it and it hasn't worked. We know there is a wrong taking place, as you, Liz, Dave, gnu, ollaimh and others have repeatedly pointed out. As we saw, the various problems on this or that reserve change from one reserve to another. I don't know how many reserves there are in Canada; couldn't even guess. The ten or so I've been on at one time or other were as different as each new town one goes to. And the 'problems' in each are just not the same. In short, there is not a single or 'one size fits all' solution. But one thing I do know: Indians ain't stupid. There are some fine minds in the mix but altogether too many young people being tossed on the scrap heap because management is so screwed up. Yes, the 'residential school system' run mostly by Anglicans and Catholics was abhorrent. I think many of us could tell stories we heard from elders about the gut-wrenching breakup of family units, one result of which is the inability of too many children to communicate, except at the most fundamental level, with their grand parents. One speaks their language and the other has a shaky grasp on English or French. I do not pretend to have the answers, but I do know I can be part of the solution by forcing my government to treat in good faith. This heavy-handed and illegal crap forced through by the Conservatives in C-38 and C-45 is disgusting legislation. I may not be my brother's keeper, but goddammit we share the same canoe, and let there be no mistake about that. Many Indian people have pointed out that these Bills are detrimental to ALL of us. This country should NOT be for sale to the fucking oil companies, the Chinese, De Beers. This place does NOT belong to us to sell. We keep it for our kids and their kids. We have found a clear path to screw up the most beautiful country in the world, bar none. We need to slam the door on that kind of thinking, or our children will slam the door on their memories of us. I can't say I'd blame them.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 09:01 AM

No problem 999, but, it does not resemble a position I would put forward:)

As to Hussein and the Taliban (if they can, or should be lumped together), they surely have gotten the attention of alot of powerful people, (especially the USA) and cost them alot in many ways - and I suspect those costs will extend into tomorrow.

Unfortunately, Canada spent billions in initiatives related to these folks. These billions (IMO) could have been effective in solving some pressing problems at home,like the one at issue today.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 07:55 AM

The point IS that they should not even be having to do this in the first place. They have *tried* sitting round tables. Sadly, it has got them nowhere...

It is NOT their fault that they have been lied to for centuries. Take it up with those who have done the lying.


Taken from the Guardian link, above.

"....Many claim that the best route for indigenous people is to assimilate and to be "just like every other Canadian." But since the 15th century nothing has worked, and indigenous peoples are fed up of being told what to do, where to do it and how to do it. The imprint of colonialism has left land claims, treaty negotiations, reserve infrastructure, indigenous poverty, and indigenous education equality in total disarray. Let's not even mention the intergenerational impact of the residential school system, which forcibly removed indigenous children from their homes and stripped them of their language and culture and left many vulnerable to physical and sexual abuse....."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/11/canada-indigenous-people-demand-better-deal

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 07:51 AM

Sorry, Ed. Thanks, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 03:40 AM

Yes, 'twas I. Must remember that the downstairs computer gets cleared of cookies on a daily basis!

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 03:37 AM

It was me Bruce - Not Ed. But the point is, surely, not how they are saying it but the fact that it is a threat? That is the point I am trying to make anyway. No ammount of posturing or sabre-rattling is worth once ounce of round the table peace talks.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 12:11 AM

"The point is that numerous people from Hussein to the Taliban have threatened to bring the west to it's knees."

Ed, you seem to be thinking linearly and narrowly, no offence. Neither that real-dead mf nor the Taliban said that. What they did say is that the west would 'be brought to its knees'. Neither said by whose hands. So far, the west is doing a good job bringing ITself to its knees.

"To regard the fundamental as the essence, to regard things as coarse, to regard accumulation as deficiency, and to dwell quietly alone with the spiritual and the intelligent -- herein lie the techniques of Tao of the ancients."

One man in a shit hole of a house tied up American intelligence for ten effin years. Yippee, he's dead, and yea for SEAL Team Six. So, what was the cost? One hundred million in direct costs and another thousand millions in ancilliary costs and another ten times that in real cash? Fuckin' spare me. Could have been taken care of with $50,000 years back--2000-2004.

Ain't my money, so really I don't give a shit, and it wasn't yours either, but the game goes on, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 08:12 PM

Idle No More Protests Continue Across Canada - (some lovely photos in here)


The Guardian - Canada's Indigenous People Are Demanding a Better Deal

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 06:05 PM

Just tried this and it did nay work. Try again.

200! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 06:03 PM

Gnu - The point is that numerous people from Hussein to the Taliban have threatened to bring the west to it's knees. None of them have succeeded. Which is why threats sound so ridiculous coming from so called grown-up politicians.

As you say, none of this shit does either side any good. They should learn from how others have moved from a culture of confrontation to one of reconciliation with amazing results. And I don't believe for one minute that if precious power were denied the government and it affected the US as well that such a protest would last long. Do you?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 02:55 PM

DtG... "I wonder if they realise how ridiculous they sound."

Not the case. They can deny the pipeline and they can deny the delivery of electricity from the hyrdoelectric dams... one way or another. War is war and these people are fighting for their rights, their way of life and for their lives.

Say it again... both sides have to wake up and do their jobs. The greed and corruption must stop. None of that shit does either side any good. (No, I ain't gonna discuss any of it... research it yourself.)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 08:35 AM

Letter to Harper from Mohawk Nation at Kahnawake

Prime Minister of Canada Stephen Harper
Office of the Prime Minister
80 Wellington
Ottawa On K1A 0A2

January 9, 2013

"The Mohawk Nation at Kahnawà:ke of the Haudenosaunee Six Nations Confederacy, proclaim the following position on behalf the People of the Longhouse, our citizens, and most importantly on behalf of our future generations.

We have watched with great concern the efforts of your current government of Canada to initiate and pass legislation that breaches the long standing nation-to-nation and government-to-government relationship between our two governments.

This action by Canada is a continuation of a centuries old policy and strategy to eliminate Indigenous governments as the original governments with whom the Crown has entered into treaty relations. There is an erroneous assumption on the part of Canada that they have been granted the authority to legislate over our nations and
peoples – nothing could be further from the truth.

This assault on our sovereignty and inherent rights as the original governments of this continent began with the invasion. As a colonial government Canada entered into agreements to steal the lands and resources; and implemented the racist Indian Act and other policies to assimilate Indigenous peoples. This assault was further compounded
by the 1924 revision of the Indian Act that was used to overthrow original Indigenous governments and replace them with band councils.

Be aware that the Band Councils and the AFN do not speak for the Haudenosaunee or any other traditional government situated on this side of Turtle Island.

We view what is now occurring through the actions of Canada to pass the following bills:

Bill C-38 Omnibus Act #1 Environmental Destruction Act
Bill C-45: Omnibus Act #2 Fisheries, Navigable Waters, FN Land Designation
Bill C-27: First Nations Financial Transparency Act
Bill C-428: Indian Act Amendment and Replacement Act

2
Bill S-2: Family Homes on Reserves and Matrimonial Interest or Rights Act
Bill S-6: First Nations Elections Act
Bill S-8: Safe Drinking Water for First Nations
Bill S-212: First Nations Self-Government Recognition Bill as the final steps in their efforts to erase any semblance of Indigenous nationhood and government from this continent.

From the outset of our international relations with colonial governments we have insisted on the principle of non-interference into the internal affairs of either party. This principle is described as a canoe and a ship travelling together on the same river, in the same direction, each holding their own way of government and their citizens. And most importantly, neither party doing anything that would disrupt the ways-of-life contained in those vessels.

After a time our ancestors warned us that we would see a day when the newcomers would try to "throw things into our canoe and try to sink it". That day came with the passage of the original Indian Act and now we see all of the other "things" they are attempting to throw into our canoe.

We have always resisted these attacks on our sovereignty and inherent rights, and even if Canada passes these bills we will resist these efforts.

It needs to be widely understood, that treaties simply regulate relations between nations and governments. That relationship between our Nation and the Crown has always been an on-going attempt to achieve peace between our governments and peoples.

What Canada is doing today does not further the value of peace.

What is and has always been of utmost importance is the preservation and protection of our inherent rights. The sovereignty of a nation and a people is such an inherent right.

Along with sovereignty, comes our inherent right of authority and jurisdiction. All of which we have never relinquished.

We will continue to urge all efforts of the Indigenous people to make the world aware of the dishonesty and deceit of Canada until there is clear change in government policy towards Indigenous Nations."

Signed by the Clan Mothers at Kahnawake:
Kanatishon Glenda Deer (Bear Clan)
Kawennahente Lynne Norton (Wolf Clan)
Kahtehronni Iris Stacey (Turtle Clan)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 07:06 AM

National Post Comment-Michael Den Tandt

Are First Nations willing to trade subsidy for self-rule-Tasha Kheiriddin.


Tim Harper-Tim Harper: No excuse for inaction at aboriginal meeting

No Excuse for inaction

Canada First Nations chiefs threaten to boycott meeting with Harper unless he comes to them-National Post
?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 06:10 AM

I remember both Saddam Hussain saying something similar.

When politicians start to make threats they sound like schoolboys trying to outdo each other. My dad's bigger than your dad. Well, my dad's a policeman. Well...

I wonder if they realise how ridiculous they sound. Instead of threatening to bring Canada to it's knees surely a positive rhetoric would be better all round? As part of what I said earlier - Just look at what was achieved by the IRA once the threats stopped and the negotiations began.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 05:42 AM

From Grand Chief Derek Nepinak (video of speech in link below): "We're not requesting the prime minister to agree with us, we're *demanding* that he agree with us, We're demanding he agrees with us because we have the power. We have the true power as in the expression of love for one another, love for the land that we come from and we've got the geography covered. The Idle No More movement across the territories that we call Canada goes from coast to coast to coast, and it has broken through the Medicine Line, into the United States and around the world. The Idle No More movement *has* The People. It has the people and the numbers that can bring the Canadian economy to its' knees.It can stop prime minister Harper's resource development plan and his billion dollar plan to develop resources in our Ancestral Territories. We *have* the Warriors that are standing up now, that are willing to go that far." - Grand Chief Derek Nepinak (Grand Chief of The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs)

Video of speech:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9qrL7tVr9U&feature=youtu.be

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 05:15 PM

Hopefully, all realize what is at stake from the many associated aspects.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 05:09 PM

That "threat" is very real. War is war. And the Natives can easily enforce that threat if they are not dealt with fairly. Perhaps all the treaty bullshit will finally be dealt with. It's not been "doable" for Natives before. A pipeline allows that and The Hair can't ignore it anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 05:08 PM

Charmion, (sorry, someone came to the door and I pressed submit before I completed my post).

Every once and awhile "a great leader" emerges to solve complex issues. Even though folks may try and "make" or "wish" for one today none is present on any side (if there are, or should be, sides) to do that job.

Hopefully, those who are in the discussions,(who comne from a variety of perspectives and pressures) can put aside their "differences", political desires, and "big egos" to work for better lives and futures for the First Nations Peoples - who deserve a much more in such a plentiful Country. Would they wish for less for themselves and their own children?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 04:48 PM

I share that distrust of politicials Charmion, and I include Aboriginal politicians in that distrust (but, surely not the Rynos).

I suspect many, if not all, on this site have a genunine interest in bettering the plight of the people dieectly impacted by centuaries of poor and unjustified treatment. But, it did not happen overnight, regardless of who is pointing fingers at each other today, for whatever political gain.   

However, my hope is it that (with my fingers crossed), and against the odds, real progress is made and the right thing is done to provide a better life and future for our fellow citizens of Canada's First Nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 03:48 PM

I have to confess a bias against politicians -- Liberal, Conservative, New Democrat, Communist, Rhinoceros, you name it. They all bring me out in a rash. It's a weakness, I know. I'll do penance some other day.

I would hate to be a judge in any case that deals with aboriginal rights or First Nations administration these days. There are so many structural problems that the court can't touch that there's just no way to be equitable in any given case without risking a rapid-fire appeal and immediate reversal.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 12:57 PM

BTW,Charmion - that CBC article I just provided was in a link in the first paragraph of the article posted on the liberal politician Carolyn Bennet's article.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 12:52 PM

Good points Charmion.

I would also add that the ruling related to the federal appoint ment of a third party manager, during the housing crisis last fall, and not the subsequent audit of this First Nations spending which made the news a few days ago. The court ruled the federal action was unreasonable under the terms of the management agreement with this First Nation, for a number of reasons (such as, there was not adaquate information to do this against the agreement, it only made matters worse, and there were other options). We now know that this action only increased tension versus improve the situation.

The article indices the judge was careful not to put the blame on any politician. The CBC article says "the judge said there is no evidence to support the accusations from critics that Prime Minister Stephen Harper, Duncan and other cabinet members acted in a reprehensible way, and said the problem in this case lies not "at the feet of the political masters, but in the hands of the bureaucracy."

There is a link to a more reliable (IMO) CBC article in the posted article. CBC Article on the ruling

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 12:42 PM

We all have biases, Charmion. However, the right wing press reported the same court findings. This link happened to be a convenient one that I found on a facebook page this morning, one of the many pages where you can find articulate people, mostly women, concerned about the environment, First Nations' rights, and that wily Attawapiskat woman standing up to vicious gangs of Harpers' henchmen.

Federal courts are likely loaded with Harper appointments from his previous minority governments, so their judgment could be important. Harper would never have done anything to make life worse for people suffering on reserves. He would never play politics with his ego.

And you don't think Harper's office spoon-feeds Anal Levant his Ex-lax?   

INM

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 10:54 AM

Interesting article, Dabit, although I take issue with the descriptor you chose to characterize Mr Harper's approach to the Attawapiskat issue.

Our Prime Minister can be a real shit when he puts his mind to it, but his smears are not scatological. In fact, his attacks are effective because they carefully target Joe Lunchbox's natural fear for his pocketbook.

Do note the source, however. As an opposition Member of Parliament, the Honourable Carolyn Bennett has a large, toothy dog in this fight. I wonder what her real focus is: the welfare of First Nations communities, or the fortunes of the Liberal Party of Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 09:30 AM

The courts don't support harper's scatological smearing

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: number 6
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:50 PM

Special Rapporteur on Indigenous Issues James Anaya denied visa

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 04:49 PM

I have seen that it takes a high level of knowledge, skill and experience to do jobs like housing maintenance on reserves. Like renovations everywhere, skills need to do the work require more than training. Band management may need better than average quality systems to ensure the work done by new tradespeople in and from their communities succeeds.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 04:37 PM

I'm not convinced I misssed the point, Charmion. But then, how do you know what you don't see. There's little point in repeating everything you said, else we might end up with argumentative threads on Mudcat. We wouldn't want that.

I even appreciate what you said in this last message because you write specifics and you speak from experience, which few people have. Sounds like you might be useful to northern communities. So thanks again.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 03:05 PM

Haven't read a lot of the latest post but I will. I just posted on another thread. I wish they could be combined and the title of this thread changed to include "Idle No More". Here is my post on the other thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Native North Americans protest
From:gnu - PM
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 02:54 PM

BTW... been PMg and email back and forth with a nuber of people on this subject and I would like to post something.

The treaties are not being respected by the Canuck government (Cg). The Chinese are listening to the Natives on that issue. They will meet with with the Natives soon to discuss developement of natural resources.

Let that sink in fer a minute... more for some of you, I expect.

Now, her's something else few seem to understand. The Cg, well, Her Majesty The Queen in Right of Canada, pays ROYALTIES on the natural resources to the Natives (the dollars receieved by the Natives are NOT Canuck taxpayer dollars... they are ROYALTIES from resources and are property taxes which are actually RENT under British common law because NOBODY OWNS LAND under British Common Law EXCEPT the Royals and they don't OWN THE RIGHT TO THE LEASE of it in Canada UNLESS they respect the treaties - ya don't pay yer rent, ya lose yer property. It's BRITISH COMMON LAW. Got that?). Now, if the Royals who signed the treaties don't honour those treaties it equals a breach of contract, a breach of the lease agreement, and the Natives can negotiate with the Chinese to have the Chinese delevope resources in return for royalties.

That's it in a nutshell and I can't be arsed to prrof read that either, even tho not proofing my OP landed me in a state of apology early on in this thread.

As I said to one rather pissed off PMer, it's gonna be VERY interestind and actually fun to watch this shit play out. Only one problem will always exist... the whites have guns and they have used them in the past = he who has the gold rules.
*************************************************************

I am still waiting for a call from a buddy of mine on the march here in town today. I couldn't go because I had to take Mum to an appointment at 30 minutes before the march.

Oh... one other thing I said in PMs and in emails was... I do not support the red man and I do not support the white man... I support the right man. And for good reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 11:12 AM

Dabit, I'm glad I entertain you but you have missed my point.

I was trying to indicate that it takes knowledge, skill and experience to manage a major project, such as maintaining a fleet of jet fighters or running a full-service community on a flood plain on the coast of Hudson Bay.

Discipline aside, this is work for professionals who understand how their support system functions (and doesn't), and know what in blazes they're doing on both the micro and macro levels. The armed forces prepare people for such assignments with literally years of education, training and work experience in staff appointments of gradually increasing responsibility -- and they still mess up.

First Nations administration? Not so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 09:23 AM

Thanks Charmion. I enjoyed reading your thoughts on logistic difficuulties. I expect it will be a few years before reserves march to military dicipline thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 07:44 AM

I provide the text to this interesting perspective, as the Globe and Mail does not seem to link here:


What the Métis decision means for Canada Add to ...
JEFFREY SIMPSON

The Globe and Mail

Wednesday, Jan. 09 2013, The Government of Canada will spend about $250-billion on all of its programs in 2013-2014. Put that in the context of the assertion made by a lawyer representing some of the Indian leaders who are meeting Prime Minister Stephen Harper on Friday.

According to Jeffrey Rath, "indigenous people" are owed "tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars" by the federal government because of lands, resources and other materials taken from these "peoples." The "hundreds of billions" figure is a guess. Could be more, could be less. Who cares when everything is based on the assertion that most of us live on stolen land and, therefore, owe almost whatever money is demanded, plus penance and apologies and, of course, guilt.

To these demands have now been added the claims of the Métis and non-status Indians, who, the Federal Court of Canada ruled on Tuesday (in a judgment that will almost certainly be appealed by the government), had the right to be treated in the same way as Indians.

As there are 400,000 people who identify as Métis, the financial obligations on the federal and provincial governments could be extremely heavy, indeed.

Back when the Charter of Rights was being negotiated in the early 1980s, it was obvious that the status Indian leadership and that of the Métis were superficially polite to each other but deeply distrustful. The Indians did not consider the Métis to be fully Indian (as, indeed, they were not and are not), and the groups' treatment experiences within Canada had been different. The Métis, however, saw similarities where status Indians did not, and were anxious that the status Indians not receive constitutional protection that escaped them.

And now the Federal Court says, in essence, that the two groups were treated sufficiently the same, and were lumped together by governments many decades ago, so they should be considered in a similar fashion today. Which will mean endless negotiations, considerable litigation and, if the Métis are ultimately successful, a huge additional financial obligation on the government that status Indians can only hope doesn't come from what they're receiving. If, indeed, the government owes the Indians "hundreds of billions" of dollars, according to one of their lawyers, what might Métis lawyers demand?

Of course, a large number of Métis have integrated into what we might call mainstream society. So we will now be treated, in ways the judge hinted at but didn't define (how could he?), to procedures by which a Métis person is to be defined.

What definition will be used in terms of what share of ancestry was aboriginal, and how long ago? Who's to say who's a Métis: the claimant, or some adjudicating board? Obviously, it will be important to know when allocating benefits, just as it is for any other government program. A person can't claim to be entitled to a pension without proving age or citizenship with documentation.

It's not a judge's business to worry about public reaction, but this ruling, should it be upheld, is likely to prove highly controversial, to put matters mildly. The Métis who wanted this designation will be delighted; they have fought for their sense of justice in constitutional negotiations and courtrooms for more than three decades.

The judgment, however, lands at a particularly delicate moment, what with the Idle No More movement, demonstrations, the failure by police to enforce court injunctions, an inflamed sense of aboriginal oppression, Chief Theresa Spence's hunger strike, and garbled accounting records all making the news, not to mention the meeting on Friday between some chiefs and the Prime Minister.

For all the obeisance paid to the rituals of multiculturalism, the majority of Canadian society is extremely integrationist – far more so than the United States or Europe – within the two broad streams of French- and English-language groups. Citizens who have joined, or are seeking as immigrants to join, the broad Canadian mainstream are likely to be themselves confused and resentful on being told they owe "hundreds of billions" of dollars, along with restitution and guilt; and that the Métis and non-status Indians have now joined status Indians on an equal footing.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 07:19 AM

Another interesting perspective from John Ivison in today's National Post.

Theresa Spence's hunger strike obscures the key First Nations issue: resource re

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 07:13 AM

An interesting perspective from today's iPoliticsz:

Building a Crown-First Nations relationship on trust

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:56 AM

I worked with non profit groups for years. During this time, the groups applied for, and received some government monies.

What I can tell you is that accounting for previous monies spent is a big factor in getting new funds - regardless of the group involved. It should be no surprise that if you have "sloppy accounting", or cannot account for where funds have gone (especially large amounts), there is a liklihood that it will impact future funding and flow of monies from any government, regardless of the government leader -that is just the way it has been, and likely will be into the future.