BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 04 - 01:14 PM

Here is another Israeli Jew who has spent time living in the Palestinian Occupied Territories:

Neta Golan The website is Jewish Voice for Peace

"This report is written by Neta Golan, the Israeli peace activist and co-founder of the International Solidarity Movement, who has lived in Palestinian villages for the past year and a half. Neta has been one of those actively resisting the Occupation, by tearing down roadblocks, taking Hebron children who are subject to 24 curfew outside to play, and physically placing herself in front of Palestinians, to deter the Israeli army from shooting at them. By happenstance, she recently came across the soldier who had killed her Palestinian friend Muhammad Duad several months ago, and who was boasting of his achievements. Neta writes about their conversation.-AG]"

"I know the two children and the young father who where murdered in Hares in the last fifteen months by Israeli soldiers so I asked him when it happened, On what day? By his answered I realized the soldier in front of me was the murderer of my friend Muhammad Daud. -

" Let me tell you who you killed" I said. -

I don't care. -

"I know you don't but I want you to know who you killed. His name was Muhammad Daud he was fifteen years old he was retarded and I loved him very much..." I told him every thing I could think of about Mohammed and about his family. He didn't want to hear it. "I know where he was standing" I said "I saw his blood on the ground. There is know way he could have thrown a stone at you from so far away, let alone a boulder.""


And here is an example of Israelis and Palestinians working together in cooperation to promote peace, using peaceful means:

http://www.mediamonitors.net/gilasvirsky1.html

"Al-Khader is a small Palestinian village near Bethlehem, which has the bad fortune to be located near the Israeli settlement of Efrat. For years, Efrat settlers have coveted the land belonging to al-Khader, and, in recent months, settlers set down 3 mobile homes on a hilltop to "establish ownership". The Palestinian villagers decided to stage a nonviolent protest march today, and invited Israelis and internationals to join them..."

The rest is in the article in the link.

I'll respond to more in a little while.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 04 - 12:50 PM

I'd like to finish answering your previous posts before I respond to any new ones, beardedbruce, although perhaps you can explain to me how the PA can possibly take any action to "control the elements that are performing terrorist acts" when all of the infrastructure they would need in order to do this (police forces, security units, roads, etc.) have been destroyed by the government of Israel, Arrafat is being held virtual prisoner in his compound and can't leave, and any movement between towns and villages by Palestinian police and security forces (if there were any left) would be impossible because of the closures and road blocks separating towns and villages from each other by the IDF.

Now I'll get back to answering your previous posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 04 - 12:42 PM

My apologies to all that CarolC and I are taking over this thread. PLEASE feel free to jump in, on eiither side, with comments, questions, or observations.

As may be obvious, some of us have rather strong feelings on the issues under discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 04 - 12:35 PM

3. There may be cases where the investigation is not as detailed as I would like- HOWEVER, the Palestinians have not prosecuted any of their people for acts of murder and destruction. When the Palestinians attempt to do a fraction of what the Israelis have already done, you can use that argument.

"Maybe you'd better re-examine this statement now."

The present Palestinian Authority, representing the Palestinian people, has taken no action to control the elements that are performing terrorist acts. The Israeli government, however imperfectly, has done so, repeatedly.

In the schools that the Palestinian Authority has established, the ENTIRE area is marked as Palestine: The students are taught that the Jews have no right to live, and that the killing of civilians is "Blessed By Allah"

You still do not address the failure of the Palestinian Authority to address the brutal murder of civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 04 - 12:11 PM

1. There are video clips of such celebrations, and pronouncements from the Palestinians.

Please provide some documentation to support this assertion.

I do realize that not all are guilty- UNLIKE the Palestinians themselves, who target any Isaraeli, Jew, or supposed supporter.   I have not heard of any IDF forces boarding cruise ships and dumping old men in wheelchairs into the ocean because they were Muslim.

You realize that not all of whom are guilty? In the first half of your sentence you say you realize that not all are guilty, and then you say that "UNLIKE the Palestinians", etc. etc. So it looks like you hold all Palestinians responsible for the acts of some Palestinians.

"The Palestinians" do no such thing. There are some Palestinians who do these things (although precious few), just as there are some Israeli Jews who do these things.

Dr. Baruch Goldstein, for instance, who gunned down, in cold blood, at least 29 Muslims while they were at prayer in the Ibrahimi mosque.

"He has become a hero among some of Israel's right-wing extremists. His tombstone in Kiryat Arba reads "Here lies the saint, Dr. Baruch Kappel Goldstein, blessed be the memory of the righteous and holy man, may the Lord avenge his blood, who devoted his soul to the Jews, Jewish religion and Jewish land. His hands are innocent and his heart is pure. He was killed as a martyr of God on the 14th of Adar, Purim, in the year 5754.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein

And Menachem Begin. We know how Israel punished him for his role in the cold blooded massacre at Deir Yassin. They made him a prime minister:

"Early in the morning of April 9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun (headed by Menachem Begin) and the Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. The village lay outside of the area to be assigned by the United Nations to the Jewish State; it had a peaceful reputation. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Deir Yassin was slated for occupation under Plan Dalet and the mainstream Jewish defense force, the Haganah, authorized the irregular terrorist forces of the Irgun and the Stern Gang to perform the takeover.

In all over 100 men, women, and children were systematically murdered. Fifty-three orphaned children were literally dumped along the wall of the Old City, where they were found by Miss Hind Husseini and brought behind the American Colony Hotel to her home, which was to become the Dar El-Tifl El-Arabi orphanage."

http://www.deiryassin.org/index1.html

http://www.deiryassin.org/purpose.html

And of course, Ariel Sharon, whom they punished for his war crimes of being in charge of the massacre at Qibya by making him the Defense Minister, and then the Prime Minister:

"A United Nations report suggests an even more grisly sequence: "Bullet-riddled bodies near the doorways and multiple bullet hits on the doors of the demolished houses," the document says, "indicated that the inhabitants had been forced to remain inside until their homes were blown up over them."[4]

Commander E.H. Hutchison, a U.S. naval officer serving on the U.N. armistice monitoring commission, investigated the slaughter. "Here and there from between the rocks," he wrote, "you could see a tiny hand or foot protruding.""

Benziman, the biographer, describes Sharon's consistently sadistic behavior toward Arabs: His men "witnessed him laughing as a junior officer tormented an old Arab and then shot him at close range; they noted his composure as he planned operations designed to kill as many civilians as possible; they carried out his intricate plan to trap a peaceful Bedouin boy shepherding his flock.""

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0712-03.htm

2. I hold those who commit the crime to be responsible.- Why don't you??????

That's exactly what I do. You, on the other hand, appear to ignore the crimes of Israelis, and to blame all Palestinians for the crimes of some Palestinians.

3. There may be cases where the investigation is not as detailed as I would like- HOWEVER, the Palestinians have not prosecuted any of their people for acts of murder and destruction. When the Palestinians attempt to do a fraction of what the Israelis have already done, you can use that argument.

Maybe you'd better re-examine this statement now.

OK, so if I give you one article about a Muslim who married a Jew and lived in Israel, you would concede that your post of 15 May 05:37PM is false???

Hardly. I'll have some more for you in a little while.

I'll respond to more of your post a bit later.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 04 - 10:42 AM

GUEST,Smarty Jones Chomsky:

"CarolC,

And we all know, for example, that you, yourself, are often out of step with the mainstream of political thought among trailer park communities in the American South."

Regardless of my opinions as to her political/religious bent, this is an uncalled for attack. She may be out of step with the mainstream of America, but that is her priviledge.

Thank you for the warning. I have found that the only ones that can provide a view from the other side are those who argue for it: I would like to understand that viewpoint, in order to defend myself from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: S O P
Date: 16 May 04 - 10:35 AM

I haven't read the testimony of a single Iraqi Jew who claims that Zionists forced Iraqi Jews to relocate. It may be similar to the claim propunded right after 9/11 that Jews had to behind the World Trade Center Bombing. Just because the guy claims to be Jewish does not mean he she or his stuff is any more believable than the above mentioned Protocols, which are pretty obviously false to me because people never write about themselves the way Protocols is written. People write about other people writing about themselves in that fashion.

Getting back to the topic, Arafat is well known for saying one thing for international consumption, and something with very different intent for domestic consumption. He has spent a great deal of money that was meant for Palestinian economic development instead on weaponry, private luxuries, and private bank accounts. He is responsible for the rise of Hamas more than any other factor, because they can project terrorist agenda without being under his guidance and he has deniability, but also because Hamas unlike the Palestinian Authority governemtn is hardly corrupt.

As for Palestinian state, it is not demonstrably workable. Palestinians can find places to live without having an independent government.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST,Smarty Jones Chomsky
Date: 16 May 04 - 10:26 AM

McGrath of Harlow,

Early in this thread, you tried to change the subject away from Arafat by demonizing Sharon. Interesting that you did that on the day that the left-wing Israeli peace movement rallied massively in support of Sharon and his plan to withdraw Israeli settlements and soldiers from (the formerly Egyptian territory, that Egypt didn't want back, of) Gaza. A plan that was rejected by Likud, the right-wing party that Sharon leads. A party whose membership encompasses less than 1% of Israel's population.

Then, you reenter the fray with a comment whose only basis is in Arafat's personal, and thoroughly discredited, propaganda about his own mythology. When your comment was shown up for the falsehood that it was, you disappeared.

CarolC,

The beliefs of the Iraqi Jew that you extensively quote have little currency among the overwhelming members of the Israeli and diaspora communities of Jews who have been forced out of Iraq in the past 56 years.

In any community there are iconoclasts. There are also examples of Palestinians who acknowledge that Israel is right and that the PLO and Hamas are wrong in the current struggle. That doesn't mean that such Palestinians represent the "truth" as their community knows it.
And we all know, for example, that you, yourself, are often out of step with the mainstream of political thought among trailer park communities in the American South.

Brucie,

Love your verses. Very clever stuff.

C-Watch and beardedbruce,

Give it up. You'll never be able to compete in debate with CarolC in this forum. She's completely relentless and she'll wear you down like she's worn down many who've come before you. Ask Irwin, Musicmic, Wolfgang, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 04 - 09:56 AM

"Shapiro says the way he sees the conflict is that the majority of the Israelis and Palestinians want to live in peace, free from oppression, free from occupation, free to live in security without fear and violence, to raise their children so that they can experience life without fear and violence."

I can agree with this, entirely.

So, when the Israelis unilaterally withdrawn, there will be no more bombings, and if there are, you will support an all-out total war by Israel against the Palestinian State?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 04 - 09:35 AM

1. There are video clips of such celebrations, and pronouncements from the Palestinians. I do realize that not all are guilty- UNLIKE the Palestinians themselves, who target any Isaraeli, Jew, or supposed supporter . I have not heard of any IDF forces boarding cruise ships and dumping old men in wheelchairs into the ocean because they were Muslim.

2. I hold those who commit the crime to be responsible.- Why don't you??????

3. There may be cases where the investigation is not as detailed as I would like- HOWEVER, the Palestinians have not prosecuted any of their people for acts of murder and destruction. When the Palestinians attempt to do a fraction of what the Israelis have already done, you can use that argument.


"here is one- an article about Adam Shapiro who has lived in the Occupied territories at various times with his wife, who is Palestinian:"

OK, so if I give you one article about a Muslim who married a Jew and lived in Israel, you would concede that your post of 15 May 05:37PM is false???

"Israeli settlers have murdered many Palestnians in cold blood and the government of Israel has not prosecuted any of them for it."

This is a false statement- I agree that some have not been prosecuted, but I do not know the details of those cases. Not every murder accusation in the US results in a trial, either. There have been cases where the settlers have been brought to trial, and I beleive some prison term given out. WHERE are the equivilent Palestinian cases?????

"The IDF has committed many war crimes, including well documented cases of using Palestinians as human shields, and they've not been disciplined for it. "

Well Documented? Please provide your source, and further details. The cases I have heard of involve trials, punishment and such, by the IDF- WHERE are the equivilent Palestinian cases????

"You've been given a pack of lies all of your life so that you, too, would hate the Palestinians, and you believe those lies."

Yes, I have listened to what the Palestinians have stated, repeatedly. Are you saying that they are all lies?

"You are being used just as Naeim Giladi was used, by people who don't give a shit about you, but who are using hatred against Muslims and against Palestinians as a way of promoting an agenda that has nothing whatever to do with your best interests, Jewish best interests, US best interests, or even Israeli best interests."

Perhaps I AM being used, but by whom? And are you so certain that you are not being used? You seem to support the right of the Palestinians to murder innocent people, and deny the right of the Israelis to attack military targets in self defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 04 - 08:12 PM

I do know, however, that the Palestinians are causing, and celebrating the murder of innocent civilians.

And how do you know that they celebrate it? And whom do you mean when you say "they"? Certainly not all Palestinians have killed innocent civilians. In fact, the vast majority of them have not. Would you hold all Israelis (or all Jews) responsible for the murders committed by Jewish settlers? I doubt it. That would be anti-Semitic, wouldn't it? Or at least very bigoted.

The Israelis investigate the deaths of civilian bystanders, and have prosecuted memebers of their own military.

No they don't. Only a token number of them just so they can say that they do. Most don't get investigated, or if they are investigated by human rights organizations, the government of Israel sweeps the investigation under the carpet. Do you think it was the government of Israel who proved that the IDF uses Palestinian non-combatants as human shields? Think again. It was not. They try to deny that they do this, but the evidence proves that they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 04 - 08:00 PM

Re: your request, beardedbruce, for some examples of Jews living in the Palestinian Occupied Territories (which mean the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, even for the majority of Palestinians), here is one- an article about Adam Shapiro who has lived in the Occupied territories at various times with his wife, who is Palestinian:

A Peaceful Perspective of Palestine

I'll see what else I can find for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 04 - 07:54 PM

I do know, however, that the Palestinians are causing, and celebrating the murder of innocent civilians. The Israelis investigate the deaths of civilian bystanders, and have prosecuted memebers of their own military. The Palestinians give murderers sainthood and their families cash rewards.


You have made a statement of your opinion, which I have to respect. I chose not to agree with it, as is my right.

But when people try to kill me, I do not thank them for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 04 - 07:32 PM

Israeli settlers have murdered many Palestnians in cold blood and the government of Israel has not prosecuted any of them for it. The IDF has committed many war crimes, including well documented cases of using Palestinians as human shields, and they've not been disciplined for it. You've been given a pack of lies all of your life so that you, too, would hate the Palestinians, and you believe those lies. You are being used just as Naeim Giladi was used, by people who don't give a shit about you, but who are using hatred against Muslims and against Palestinians as a way of promoting an agenda that has nothing whatever to do with your best interests, Jewish best interests, US best interests, or even Israeli best interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 04 - 07:27 PM

The Protocols were written by anti-Semites. Naeim Giladi is a Jew.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 04 - 07:20 PM

... and I have a copy of the Protocols Of Zion, if you want to read them.

There MAY be some items of truth- I am not in a position to judge.

I do know, however, that the Palestinians are causing, and celebrating the murder of innocent civilians. The Israelis investigate the deaths of civilian bystanders, and have prosecuted memebers of their own military. The Palestinians give murderers sainthood and their families cash rewards.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 04 - 07:18 PM

Here's what he has to say about his and his family's experience of being a part of the Jewish minority in Iraq. Ironically, the prison he mentions is the Abu-Greib prison. He was there for being a part of terrorist activities as a member of the Zionist underground:

"The original Jews found Babylon, with its nourishing Tigris and Euphrates rivers, to be truly a land of milk, honey, abundance-and opportunity. Although Jews, like other minorities in what became Iraq, experienced periods of oppression and discrimination depending on the rulers of the period, their general trajectory over two and one-half millennia was upward. Under the late Ottoman rule, for example, Jewish social and religious institutions, schools, and medical facilities flourished without outside interference, and Jews were prominent in government and business.

As I sat there in my cell, unaware that a death sentence soon would be handed down against me, I could not have recounted any personal grievances that my family members would have lodged against the government or the Muslim majority. Our family had been treated well and had prospered, first as farmers with some 50,000 acres devoted to rice, dates and Arab horses.

Then, with the Ottomans, we bought and purified gold that was shipped to Istanbul and turned into coinage. The Turks were responsible in fact for changing our name to reflect our occupation-we became Khalaschi, meaning "Makers of Pure."

I did not volunteer the information to my father that I had joined the Zionist underground. He found out several months before I was arrested when he saw me writing Hebrew and using words and expressions unfamiliar to him. He was even more surprised to learn that, yes, I had decided I would soon move to Israel myself. He was scornful. "You'll come back with your tail between your legs," he predicted.

About 125,000 Jews left Iraq for Israel in the late 1940s and into 1952, most because they had been lied to and put into a panic by what I came to learn were Zionist bombs. But my mother and father were among the 6,000 who did not go to Israel. Although physically I never did return to Iraq-that bridge had been burned in any event-my heart has made the journey there many, many times. My father had it right."

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 04 - 07:09 PM

Here is an excerpt of an article written by the Iraqi Jew who wrote that book I mentioned earlier. I think those of you who are so sure about who is guilty of what ought to read the whole article.

THE JEWS OF IRAQ - TESTIMONY OF A FORMER ZIONIST

--by Naeim Giladi, Iraqi Jew and former Zionist who is the author of "Ben Gurion's Scandals: How the Haganah & the Mossad Eliminated Jews".

Naeim Giladi: "I write this article for the same reason I wrote my book: to tell the American people, and especially American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors. I write about what the first Prime Minister of Israel called 'cruel Zionism'. I write about it because I was part of it."

"...Nasser was not the only Arab leader who wanted to make peace with Israel. There were many others. Brigadier General Abdel Karim Qasem, before he seized power in Iraq in July, 1958, headed an underground organization that sent a delegation to Israel to make a secret agreement. Ben Gurion refused even to see him. I learned about this when I was a journalist in Israel. But whenever I tried to publish even a small part of it, the censor would stamp it "Not Allowed." Now, in Netanyahu, we are witnessing another attempt by an Israeli prime minister to fake an interest in making peace. Netanyahu and the Likud are setting Arafat up by demanding that he institute more and more repressive measures in the interest of Israeli "security." Sooner or later I suspect the Palestinians will have had enough of Arafat's strong-arm methods as Israel's quisling-and he'll be killed. Then the Israeli government will say, "See, we were ready to give him everything. You can't trust those Arabs-they kill each other. Now there's no one to even talk to about peace."

Conclusion

Alexis de Tocqueville once observed that it is easier for the world to accept a simple lie than a complex truth. Certainly it has been easier for the world to accept the Zionist lie that Jews were evicted from Muslim lands because of anti-Semitism, and that Israelis, never the Arabs, were the pursuers of peace. The truth is far more discerning: bigger players on the world stage were pulling the strings.

These players, I believe, should be held accountable for their crimes, particularly when they willfully terrorized, dispossessed and killed innocent people on the altar of some ideological imperative.

I believe, too, that the descendants of these leaders have a moral responsibility to compensate the victims and their descendants, and to do so not just with reparations, but by setting the historical record straight.

That is why I established a panel of inquiry in Israel to seek reparations for Iraqi Jews who had been forced to leave behind their property and possessions in Iraq. That is why I joined the Black Panthers in confronting the Israeli government with the grievances of the Jews in Israel who came from Islamic lands. And that is why I have written my book and this article: to set the historical record straight.

We Jews from Islamic lands did not leave our ancestral homes because of any natural enmity between Jews and Muslims. And we Arabs-I say Arab because that is the language my wife and I still speak at home-we Arabs on numerous occasions have sought peace with the State of the Jews. And finally, as a U.S. citizen and taxpayer, let me say that we Americans need to stop supporting racial discrimination in Israel and the cruel expropriation of lands in the West Bank, Gaza, South Lebanon and the Golan Heights."

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 04 - 06:40 PM

True.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 04 - 06:38 PM

When was any statement from Arafat NOT about the lack of that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 04 - 06:34 PM

Why is a statemnt from Arafat about terrorism suddenly about the right of Israelis to exist?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 04 - 06:30 PM

please pardon the spelling- I never said I could type.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 04 - 06:27 PM

"they want to live in peace and prosperiety with their neighbors"

As long as the neighbors do not include any Jews. You seem quite willing to beleive the statements that you choose, but I hear a lot more from them that does not indicate any willingness to tolerate the existance of a Jewish state in any form. The Term "Palestinian Occupied Territories" has ALWAYS been a codeword for the state of Israel. They were offered chances for a peaceful settlement, and decided to continue armed conflict. I have more compassion for the children being killed than they do.

"There can be no peace with the Palestinians until they love their children more than they hate us."

Please address facts 5, 7, 8, 9, and 10.
You keep making blanket statements about what the Palestinians want, but WHAT HAVE THEY SAID to the rest of the Arab world, on Arabic language stations? Not a bit about the right of ANY Jews to esist in any place: Just that they will drive them into the sea. Look at the levels of casualties in simalar conflicts throughout the world- The Israelis have a MUCH LOWER fatality rate ( for Palestinians) than anywhere else- Far East, Africa, Western Asia. Yes, any innocent civilians killed are too many- BUT it happens to be a war crime to put bomb factories in refugee camps. Israel had the right to just blow away the entire camp- they CHOSE to go in, and in hand-to-hand combat take much higher casualties than needed to accomplish their goals. WHen I hear 1/10 the noise about the targetting of innocent civilians in Israel as I do about those civilians killed by accident in raids on military targets, I might be willing to listen to som discussion of what the Palestinians want.

As I said, when people celebrate civilians being killed just because they are in a specific country, those people are enimies of mine, and I would hope of all humane people.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 04 - 06:02 PM

They did not turn down an independent state. They turned down an apartheid state that would be broken up into little bantustans surrounded by Israeli controled land, with Jewish only settlements and roads guarded by the Israeli military separating one village from the next, and with most of the water in their aquafers being taken from them for use in Israel.

Palestinians don't want to bring death and maiming to the Israelis. They want the Israelis to get the hell out of the Palestinian Occupied Territories. They want to have their own independent country with their own independent government, and they want to live in peace and prosperiety with their neighbors.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:42 PM

And the Palestinians have been blowing up birthday parties and religuos celebrations because they want to bring the joy of death and maiming to the Israelis.....


I am so glad that you are so intimate with the purposes of the Israeli government.

The Palestinians turned down an independent state, since "why settle for some when we can have all?" THEN they restarted the bombings of civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:37 PM

1. Can you give me any information about them?

I'll see what I can find for you. I'll probably post it tomorrow.

2. There are Muslims living happily in Israeli vilages in the state of Issrael, and they are welcomed there by the Christian and Jewish Israelis.

Actually, not so happily. They are discriminated against in all kinds of ways that would not be tolerated here in the US. And they are getting concerned that an expulsion is a real possibility for them. There is a defacto expulsion already taking place with the regular practice of house demolitions that the government of Israel is practicing in Arab-Israeli villages.

Because the Palestinians keep trying to kill them, and rather than exterminate the Palestinians, like the Palestinians have stated repeatedly that they want to do to the Israelis, the Israelis are trying to remove the weapons rather than the people.

Not quite. The Israeli government has been bombing the civil infrastructure in the Occupied Territories in order to make it impossible for there to ever be a viable independent Palestinian state.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:23 PM

"And just WHY are the Israelis in that place and bombing those things?"

Because the Palestinians keep trying to kill them, and rather than exterminate the Palestinians, like the Palestinians have stated repeatedly that they want to do to the Israelis, the Israelis are trying to remove the weapons rather than the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:20 PM

"There are some Jews living happily in Palestinian villages in the Occupied Territories, and they are welcomed there by the Christian and Muslim Palestinians."


1. Can you give me any information about them?

2. There are Muslims living happily in Israeli vilages in the state of Issrael, and they are welcomed there by the Christian and Jewish Israelis.
THEREFORE, by your reasoning, there was no attempt to remove the Muslims from the area, and there is no problem to deal with. I am glad we agree on the foolishness of the "right of return" that the Palestinians demand unilaterally.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:18 PM

I could join this hate-fest and seek to prove the unlikely proposition that one side is totally evil and corrupt and wrong, while the other side is totally good and noble and is only defending itself...but naw...

"swt-swt-swt" (that's me whistling as I walk away)

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:17 PM

You have ignored the fact that there are other reasons. The Palestinians place military targets (HQ, Bomb factories, etc) in the midst of civilian areas, effectively using civilians as human shields.

And just WHY are the Israelis in that place and bombing those things? If they would get out of the Occupied Territories, there would be no reason to bomb anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:15 PM

Oh, beardedbruce, I have been giving facts here in the Mudcat for about the last two years. Why don't you click on my name in the heading above this post, and just read all of the threads I've posted to since about this time in 2002 that are about the Middle East, and see all of the probably hundreds of pieces of documentation I've provided in them.

The reason most of the Jews who used to be Palestinians are now Israelis is because they wanted to be a part of the new Jewish State. There are some Jews living happily in Palestinian villages in the Occupied Territories, and they are welcomed there by the Christian and Muslim Palestinians.

By the way, there is a book out, by an Iraqi Jew (who became an Israeli), who relates his experiences during the time that the Jews were being forced to leave Iraq. He says that the Zionists (of which he was one at the time) purposely caused the stirring up of hatreds between people who prior to that time had not been enemies, so that the Jews would be forced out of Iraq. He said the Zionists wanted them in Israel so they could provide cheap labor. Remember, this is an Iraqi Jew I'm talking about.

There is a Synagogue in Iraq that has been very carefully and lovingly cared for and tended by Iraqi Muslims since its Jewish congregants left, in the hope that some day the Jewish community will return to it and it will be ready for them if they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:04 PM

CarolC:

"your "facts" are pretty much all over the map with regard to their accuracy. Some are accurate, and many are propaganda that has been proven false over the years, mostly as a result of the declassification of a lot of historical documents that had been held by the government of Israel up until a few years ago. "

PLEASE GIVE SOME SPECIFUIC INFORMATION THAT CAN BE VERIFIED!

"The Palestinians are not our enemies. They just want the occupation to end. "

ANYONE THAT CELEBRATES THE KILLING OF CIVILIANS JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE IN A GIVEN LOCATION , BECAUSE THAT LOCATION IS IN MY COUNTRY, IS MY ENEMY!

"Re: what your neighbor said. Prior to the establishment of the state of Israel, a Palestinian was anyone who was from the place called Palestine. There were Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Palestinians, many of whose ancestors had been living there for more than a thousand years. Now there are mostly just Christian and Muslim Palestinians (many of whose ancestors have been living there for more than a thousand years)."

AND WHY IS THAT???????????????????? See #7 of my list.


"the fact that there have been many times more Palestinian non-combatants killed (including children), by an order of about three to one, than Israeli Jewish non-combatants, would indicate one of two things... "

You have ignored the fact that there are other reasons. The Palestinians place military targets (HQ, Bomb factories, etc) in the midst of civilian areas, effectively using civilians as human shields. The reason that the number of Israeli civilian casualties is so low is the extreme value that the Israelis place on human life, as opposed to the blatent disregard that the Palestinians place on both their own and other's lives. There are not a whole lot of Israelis that strap on bombs, and go off to find parties and schools to blow up. A soldier who blows up a bomb-making plant, and accidentily kills a child who was brought there by the bomb-maker IS NOT the moral equivalent of the person who seeks out children and civilians exclusively to blow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 04 - 04:47 PM

BTW, beardedbruce, the fact that there have been many times more Palestinian non-combatants killed (including children), by an order of about three to one, than Israeli Jewish non-combatants, would indicate one of two things... either the Israelis are targeting Palestinian non-combatants, or they're terrible shots. So either they need to stop targeting Palestinian non-combatants, or they need to get some target practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 04 - 04:43 PM

beardedbruce, your "facts" are pretty much all over the map with regard to their accuracy. Some are accurate, and many are propaganda that has been proven false over the years, mostly as a result of the declassification of a lot of historical documents that had been held by the government of Israel up until a few years ago. The Palestinians are not our enemies. They just want the occupation to end. Re: what your neighbor said. Prior to the establishment of the state of Israel, a Palestinian was anyone who was from the place called Palestine. There were Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Palestinians, many of whose ancestors had been living there for more than a thousand years. Now there are mostly just Christian and Muslim Palestinians (many of whose ancestors have been living there for more than a thousand years).

GUEST, C-watch, Arafat did stop terrorism coming from his own organization, the PLO, for two years after the signing of the Oslo accords, and before the government of Israel instigated the second intifada when Israeli forces fired their guns upon demonstrators armed only with stones and shoes, killing several and wounding many.

Arafat is calling the occupiers of the Palestinian Occupied Territories enemies of God, but I don't see him anywhere calling Jews enemies of God. The fact that the occupiers are Jewish does not in any way indicate that Arafat would generalize his statement to include all Jews. That's pure speculation on your part.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 04 - 04:15 PM

CarolC:

I am sure that you can help us celebrate "Peace in our Time"


Unfortunately, I would like for it to be one agreed to by BOTH sides, not one where the side more willing to kill innocent civilians claims victory over the dead bodies of their enemies.

There is a major difference between what the English version of Arafat's speeches and the Arabic ones.

And regardless of his "statements" to the contrary, I SAW on tv the demonstrations of joy and approval in the Palestinian areas on Sept 11. These people are not our friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 15 May 04 - 04:13 PM

beardedbruce,

The historucal facts you present are essentially true.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 04 - 04:04 PM

I would like to place the following statements in the thread. To the best of my knowledge, they are true facts. If anyone has actual evidence that any are inaccurate, PLEASE let me know, with appropriate references.

1.There was a moderate sized Jewish community in the Middle East prior to the turn of the last century, under the Ottoman Empire.

2. During the period of the British Mandate (1921? To 1948) Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived in the area.

3. At the time of the formation of the state of Israel, the area was partitioned into Israel and Transjordan.

4. The Israeli government invited the non-Jewish population to stay and participate in the state of Israel.

5. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Ordered the Muslim population to flee, temporarily, while the Arab League armies destroyed the Jews. They were then promised the lands they held before, plus the lands of the Jews.

6. Approximately 640,000 Muslims fled the area that was in conflict, by their own choice. A number did not, and they and their families still reside in Israel, as citizens.

7. Approximately 820,000 Jews throughout the Arab world were forced out of their homes, having possessions and property confiscated. No significant number of Jews was allowed to remain in any of the Arab countries.

8. At the end of the 1948 conflict, the Arab League gave the West Bank area of Palestine to Jordan, and procceded to remove or eliminate all Jewish inhabitants of that region.

9. No Arab nation allowed the "Palestinian" refugees to settle as citizens: The state of Israel welcomed all of the displaced Jews, and did not remove any non-Jew from the region.

10. During the period that Jordan had control of the West Bank, there was NO effort to settle any of the Muslim refugees there, or anywhere else.

As an aside, I grew up near a family of Palestinian Christians. They had fled (from the AL armies) from the town of Ramullah, a mainly Christian town. They talked about their Jewish neighbors, but did not remember any large number of Muslims living there.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 15 May 04 - 04:01 PM

Perhaps it's because Arfart's "if they want peace, then let's have peace," are empty words in comparison to "find what strength you have to terrorize your enemy and the enemy of God."

If Arafat wanted peace, if he gave a shit about his people, he would have stopped the terrorism long ago. Instead, he has his PA administration provide financial rewards to the families of homicidal suicide bombers while his own family is safe in Paris living in the lap of luxury on the $300 million (at last count) that he has stolen from his people.

In another thread today, CarolC, wrote: Muslims don't believe that Christians and Jews are infidels. They call Christians and Jews "People of the Book" and consider them to be their spiritual brethren.

Clearly, Arafat is calling Israelis, in other words, Jews, "enemies of God." I guess Arafat was absent from CarolC's Mudcat class on Islamic belief systems.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 04 - 03:45 PM

Facts indeed beardedbruce. Interesting how GUEST, C-watch left out the other important part of the quote (the part where he says "And if they want peace, then let's have peace."). Selective use of facts is a very effective way to foment hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 04 - 03:40 PM

Here's a better source for the quote. It's short, so I'm including the whole thing:

"RAMALLAH, West Bank - Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat today called on his people to ``terrorize your enemy'' as he bitterly marked the 56-year anniversary of Israel's establishment, but also signaled that he is ready for peace.

In a speech broadcast live on Palestinian television, Arafat repeatedly called on his people to be steadfast in their struggle against Israeli occupation.

He ended the speech with a quote from the Quran.

``Find what strength you have to terrorize your enemy and the enemy of God,'' he said. ``And if they want peace, then let's have peace.'' (emphasis mine)

Arafat, whom Israel accuses of supporting militant groups, did not appear to be calling for new attacks on Israel. The passage in the Quran refers to the early Muslims' wars against pagans and is frequently invoked by Islamic leaders today to encourage strength in times of conflict.

Arafat spoke as Palestinians marked what they refer to as the ``catastrophe'' of Israel's independence on May 15, 1948."

http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/4778123.html

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 04 - 03:33 PM

Hey, GUEST C-Watch, STOP that!!! The facts have no place in any discussion of this sort!

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 15 May 04 - 03:25 PM

You mean when he was born in what is now Israel, there weren't any Palestinian refugees? True enough.

As his birth certificate shows, Arafat was born in Cairo, Egypt. Only revisionist anti-Israel propagandists now give any shrift to his revisionist claim of being born in Jerusalem.

He also attended Cairo University from 1952-1956 and then served in the Egyptian Army during the Suez conflict.

It was only well after the founding of Fatah, circa 1960, when he already into his 30s, that Arafat began claiming to have been born in Jerusalem.

Encyclopedia bio of Arafat.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 04 - 03:11 PM

Interesting point, pdq. I think you're quite right about that. A leader does need a cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 04 - 03:07 PM

Yasir Arafat was actually there BEFORE the issues he now espouses.

You mean when he was born in what is now Israel, there weren't any Palestinian refugees? True enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: pdq
Date: 15 May 04 - 03:00 PM

Sorry, Little Hawk, but Yasir Arafat was actually there BEFORE the issues he now espouses. A leader needs a cause as much as a cause needs a leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 04 - 02:56 PM

And Little Hawk has spoken well,
As always I would say;
Please let me know when peace breaks out,
That's it from me today.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 04 - 02:50 PM

One of the objectives of all wars is to terrorize the "enemy" (whoever that may be) into surrendering or coming to terms (whatever those may be).

It's the least intelligent way possible of dealing with other human beings, but it provides the arms industry with a living and the military with a reason to exist.

Arafat is temporary. The issues which spawned Arafat are more lasting and will most probably outlive him. I could say the same of Bush and Sharon.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 04 - 02:50 PM

I know the mouths will have their say
But after they have said it,
I don't think God would be pleased, see,
He doesn't need the credit.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: dianavan
Date: 15 May 04 - 02:44 PM

...and Bush is after the non-Christians in his 'Crusade'

Everyone thinks they are good and God is on their side. I guess there is more than one God after all.

Only the Goddess can protect us from the evil Gods of Islam, Christianity and Judaism.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 04 - 02:43 PM

In truth I see no differece GUEST,
Between the folks you mention,
The Devil pulls the strings my friend
And killers pay attention.