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BS: Congratulations to Canada
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Subject: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Amos Date: 12 Mar 03 - 12:30 AM From those of us in the United States who still have a few ideals left to rub together, warmest congratulations to Canada for providing the first President of the International Criminal Court, Philippe Kirsch of Canada. The Court was founded today at the Hague. Details can be found here in the International Herald Tribune. http://www.iht.com/articles/89441.html Regards, Amos |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: katlaughing Date: 12 Mar 03 - 12:34 AM "facing a boycott by the US"...why am I not surprised? Congrats, Canada! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Rustic Rebel Date: 12 Mar 03 - 12:48 AM That is interesting Amos. I have been thinking about Canada quite a bit lately just wondering where they stand on a lot of issues. I never hear much about them politically. Is it true it is like Sweden and a neutral nation? I think I like this plan they have, United States probably fears it, the reason for the boycott. They might start looking our way at the criminals in this country! Peace. Rustic |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: gnu Date: 12 Mar 03 - 06:20 AM Neutral ? No. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Date: 12 Mar 03 - 09:32 AM Amos thanks for the link. Strangely enough, I could find no mention of Kirsch's appointment either on the CBC or in Toronto's major newspapers this morning. Seems like the US is trying everything in it's power to secure immunity from international law. I found this quote pretty scary stuff: "...only the United States actively tried to block the court's creation ... Bush has secured bilateral treaties with 22 countries granting U.S. citizens immunity from arrest warrants issued by the international court. Congress also adopted legislation empowering the president to use "all means necessary" to free Americans taken into the court's custody." Rustic - Canada is not now, nor ever been 'neutral' in war. We're often overlooked though, probably because our contributions - though often most vital - are relatively small, reflecting our population. We fought in both World Wars long before the US got involved in either. It's often said that the sacrifice the Canadians made at the slaughter of Dieppe (almost 4000 casualties out of a landing party of 5000) was vital to the success of the D-Day landing a couple days later. And there are thousands of Canadian soldiers buried in Belgium today. I believe those graves were the inspiration for the famous poem "In Flander's fields the poppies grow ..." Here's some information about the Canadian military contribution to the American Civil War. And to find out about how we participated in the Vietnam war, Korea and other conflicts, click here. No, we've never been neutral. However, "There has never been a war of Canadian origin, nor for a Canadian cause." - WA Deacon, Canadian writer Now that puffs me up with pride a bit! daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: CarolC Date: 12 Mar 03 - 01:12 PM Very cool! Congratulatons Canada! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Date: 12 Mar 03 - 06:21 PM Found at a funny site called WeDoNotLiveInIgloos... "On the sixth day God turned to Archangel Gabriel and said: "Today I am going to create a land called Canada, it will be a land of outstanding natural beauty. It shall have tall majestic mountains full of mountain goats and eagles, beautiful sparkling lakes bountiful with bass and trout, forests full of elk and moose, high cliffs over-looking sandy beaches with an abundance of sea life, and rivers stocked with salmon." God continued, "I shall make the land rich in oil so as to make the inhabitants prosper, I shall call these inhabitants Canadians, and they shall be known as the most friendly people on the earth." "But Lord," asked Gabriel, "don't you think you are being too generous to these Canadians?" "Not really," replied God, "just wait and see the neighbours I am going to give them!" He he ... Well, it's a little funny, eh? ... daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Rustic Rebel Date: 12 Mar 03 - 06:31 PM Thanks Daylia for that info. That last article on Vietnam vets was interesting to me because I never knew that Canadians were enlisted into the US military. It talked about draft evaders going to Vancouver and that is why I was wondering a little about Canada, because I had just recently met a Vietnam draft dodger that went to Vancouver and lived there for 12 years before returning to the US. I swamped him with tons of questions about it because he was the first I had ever met. He told people I was interviewing him! But now I wonder if he was just full of shit, because he's the one that told me Canada was a neutral. If I ever see him again I'll have to ask him! Another thing I learned today was about Canada being a colony of Great Britain until 1867. I never knew that either. Thanks. I want to know more! What is up with Canadians fighting in the US military? Don't you have a military up there? And why don't you recognize the Vietman vets? And is this thread drift Amos?! Peace. Rustic |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Date: 12 Mar 03 - 06:37 PM Canada's stance on the conflict with Iraq (Canada) called for compromise on setting a deadline and schedule for Iraqi compliance with demands for disarmament. He said Iraq should be given a three-week ultimatum to meet disarmament demands. "We are convinced that Iraq is substantially contained and that if it co-operates, the disarmament of Iraq can be had without a shot being fired," said the ambassador repeating what Prime Minister Jean Chrétien said in an interview on the weekend. From this cbc article http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/03/11/unsc030311 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:09 PM Yep, we have a military Rustic. Looks like the Canadians who fought in the Civil War joined the American army(ies) because they badly needed the job at the time, among other reasons quoted in the article. I don't remember learning that in history class! Not sure about why the Canuck Vietnam vets get overlooked - except that there was so very few of them compared to other wars, perhaps. Our population is only 27 million - 1/10 that of the US - about the same as the city of LA? It makes sense from an evolutionary point of view that the top priority for Canadians must be making a living in this harsh climate, not fighting foreign wars. The US has long been the world's leading producer and stockpiler of WMD, so there's not much point in trying to compete, is there? But Canada continues to maintain only enough of it's Armed Forces to meet it's UN and NATO obligations. Beefing them up when Uncle Sam calls, of course. And that's only because economically the US is by far our biggest trading partner. Kinda like an umbilical cord, like it or not. In light of the current situation though, it's sure gettin harder to find reasons to like it, eh? daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Rick Fielding Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:57 PM Rebel, I'm afraid your friend simply didn't know much about Canada'a system and history. Not surprising. FEW Canadians and virtually NO Americans know ANYTHING about us! I know an awful lot of folks who sure want it that way (I'm one of them) Canada's job has been as peace-keepers for quite a while now, for several reasons....Number one: we have health care for EVERYONE here, rich or poor.....and a very small military budget. The US thinks we're craven cowards! Have you heard the term "Soviet Canuckistan"? We trade with Castro and haven't lynched a black person in a longgggg time! But......What's the national character like? Well I travel a lot, and I have found that we are surprisingly a bit of a dour culture. American stores? No question....staff ten times friendlier than Canadians. American Restaurants? Bigger, better portions and usually served with a smile. Yup...I LOVE American folks! Sports? Don't judge us on how much we know about baseball, football and basketball (well ya can judge ME!)....go to a hockey game between The Toronto Maple Leafs, and The Montreal Canadians (or Detroit, or Chicago) and you'll see verrrry knowledgable (and potentially vicious and violent fans!......Joking, I think) What you'll find is that there are almost always two answers to questions about Canada.......yes....and...no, to the same question! We were there (overseas) in 1914 at the beginning of WW I (yup that's when it started), and went to fight Hitler in 1939, at the beginning of WW II. Some went to Vietnam...some totally opposed it...and some came here to start a new life. They're ALL treated with respect 'officially' (I guess there are some rednecks and pacifists who've chosen sides...but nuthin' new in that. Currently our Prime Minister (Jean Chretien NOT John Crouton, as Bush thinks!) is tap dancing so fast he's about to lose his teeth! Obviously he doesn't want to be part of starting WW III (who does anymore?) but wait and see....he's a wily veteran, who could end up being the most important 'peace maker' in the History of the world. We'll see. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Date: 12 Mar 03 - 08:41 PM A - (eh?) - MEN to that, Rick! Thank you! :) And now ... oh nooo ... I just can't resist ... "President George W. Bush called Prime Minister Jean Chretien with a pressing emergency; "Our largest condom factory has exploded," Bush cried. "My people's favorite source of birth control is in jeopardy! This is a disaster!" "George, da Canajian pipple would be 'appy to do anyt'ing wit'in der power to 'elp you," replied the Prime Minister. "I need your help," said Bush. "Could you possibly send us 1,000,000 condoms ASAP to tide us over?" "Certainment! I will get on hit right haway," said Jean. "Oh, and one small favor, please?" said President George W." "Oui?" replied Jean. "Could the condoms be red, white and blue, and at least 10 inches long, with a 4 inch diameter?" asked Bush. "No prob'lem," replied the Prime Minister, and with that Chretien hung up and called the President of Trojan. "I need a favor. You got to make 1,000,000 condoms right haway, and sen'dem to Hamerica." "Consider it done," said the President of Trojan. "Great! Now listen mon ami. Dey haf to be rouge, blanc et bleu in colour, hat least 10 hinches long, and 4 hinches in dia'meter." "That's easily done Jean. Anything else?" "Yes," said the Prime Minister, "an print on dem MADE IN CANADA, size: SMALL. PROUD TO BE CANADIAN!" (From the WeDoNotLiveInIgloos site) daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: delphinium Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:39 PM Good luck to Philippe Kirsch and the International Criminal Court, they do not have an easy role. We Canadians are also proud of the work done by Louise Arbour as chief prosecutor for the United Nation's International War Crimes Tribunal from 1996 to 1999. (Amos, most of us also appreciate that there are many Americans out there with fine and intact ideals.) dahlia, my flower sister, this appointment was yesterday's news, very prominant on CBC and in newspapers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Rustic Rebel Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:09 AM This article also said Russia and China have not endorsed the court, but US is the only one trying to stop it. Another thing in this article that really has me bummed is this phrase GW seems to like to use alot; "all means necessary" He really is starting to piss me off! Anyway it refers to the part where congress (of US) adopted legislation empowering the president, "all means necessary" to free Americans taken into the courts custody. So does anyone have a take on that? What is he saying do you suppose? That if this new world court has an American it's going to be blown to high heaven if they don't give them up? Whoa. Back up the horse Charlie. I guess Amos, you have now given me more research work! How do you see this? Thanks to all for some enlightenment on Canada, your right Rick, Canada is an unknown to many. I knew that about the health care. I know people that come up there to buy medicine because it is cheaper and now US is trying to stop that because they are losing some of that almighty buck. The people I know who are doing it are on a limited income and can't afford meds down here. Pretty sad state we are in. Peace. Rustic |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:37 AM Prime Minister Lester Pierson won a Nobel peace prize for his work during the Suez Crisis. The concept of the UN Peace Keeper originated in Canada. The trading relationship between the US and Canada is by far the largest bilateral trade in the world, although Canada has a trade surplus with the US this surplus can be easily accounted for in raw materials and energy. Canada is the number one supplier of natural gas. Canada sells Hydro-electricity to the US so that they don't have so much pollution with coal. Canada is the number one supplier of Potash to US farmers and one of those farmers' largest market. Canada historically been the closest ally of the US. Canada gave up land resources and manpower to build an staff the Distant Early Warning Line and Newfoundland had Naval and air bases during the Cold war. Canada supplied the US with uranium for her first nuclear bombs. All of this made Canadian cities Like Toronto and Montreal nuclear targets as were Chicago and Detroit. Canada didn't have to fight the cold war she could have stayed on the sidelines or played one side against the other as many others did. No Country spends more tourist dollars than Canada, no country buys nearly as much manufactured goods from the US. No country supplies as much raw material. Buchanan, Mr. Bush and all those other "patriots" who can't see past the flags on their SUV's can't see this. They want ostracize and criticize Canada because she won't fall into line like a duckling. I know Canada. Canada has never started a war. Canada has never back down from a legitimate cause. Canada will not surrender her principles not for money, not for oil not for you. Long after the current US administration is gone and forgotten, which unless a miracle happens will be two years from now, Canada will be a friend of the United States of America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: gnu Date: 13 Mar 03 - 05:09 AM Geezzz. I'm teary eyed. Well said guys. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: GUEST,Peter T. Date: 13 Mar 03 - 08:09 AM You learn something new from Mudcat every day. I read Canadian newspapers cover to cover, and there was zilch on this. Actually, I am somewhat shocked. Where the hell are the Canadian media? yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Date: 13 Mar 03 - 08:52 AM Peter T, delphinium - I just searched cbc.ca, the Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star again, and found ZILCHO about Kirsch's appointment. Then I tried the Ottawa Citizen on an impulse and lo and behold, Voila!! Apparently Kirch's first line of business after his inauguration was an attempt to reassure the US and Israel that they have "nothing to fear" from the new International Criminal Court: " THE HAGUE (CP) - The Canadian diplomat named as first president of the International Criminal Court says the United States has nothing to fear "politically" from the world's first permanent body to prosecute war crimes. "There's no way the court ... could be used as a political tool," said Philippe Kirsch, addressing opposition to the court by the United States, Israel and several other countries, which fear that the judicial body could be misused by political enemies. "It's impossible because of the nature of the rules governing the statute," Kirsch, 55, said in an interview after the court inauguration ceremony Tuesday in The Hague." The US has been campaigning to undermine the Court's jurisdiction from it's beginnings in the late 90's, according to this article. (There's some useful information about the Court and it's history at that link too). I only hope that Mr. Hans Corell, Under-Secretary-General for Legal Affairs, who opened the first meeting of the ASP last fall was right when he said "We see the dawn of a new age in the pursuit of justice…International law will be strengthened. Impunity for those who commit the most heinous crimes will be eliminated". In the meantime, on a lighter note, did you know that the darling of the Toronto Maple Leafs Matt Sundin scored his 6000th goal on Tuesday night?!? (Bin waiting almost 4 decades to see'em win another Stanley Cup!) daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Amos Date: 13 Mar 03 - 09:03 AM I think that obsession with ice-sports is a secret key to Canada's long and successful neutrality in day-to-day affairs. I have no idea what Bush means about all means necessary, and it seems to me highly provicative on his part to imagine that an American taken for due cause before the International Court would need to be rescued. I can understand that he would be nervous about justices he couldn't buy. But that isa personal neurosis ofhis, not a valid political position. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Rick Fielding Date: 13 Mar 03 - 09:03 AM Jeez, when I look back at all that blah blah I wrote it seems positively PATRIOTIC! Hmmmmmm.....and from a true blue cynic. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Steve Latimer Date: 13 Mar 03 - 09:44 AM Jack, Very nicely said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Bill D Date: 13 Mar 03 - 10:33 AM *grinning at *daylia's* Canadian jokes, which, as you might expect, are generic jokes with new referents plugged in.....The "neighbor" joke has been done with both Israel and Ireland as the protagonist, and I heard the "condom" joke 30 years ago with Alaska and Texas as the ingredients but, daylia...you did do them RIGHT, bless you, and not in Reader's Digest condensed format.. as to the subject, I wonder if honors are due to Canada, or just to a good Canadian? I respect Canada a lot for their system and general honorable participation in world affairs...including wars....but I always have difficulty with national 'pride' in the honors given to an individual, whether it be Pope, Sec. General of the UN, or an international judge. Perhaps it DOES reflect well on a country that a decent person for such a post was produced under their system, but let's do be careful how far we extend the credit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: GUEST,Peter T. Date: 13 Mar 03 - 11:36 AM It is worth stating that Canada's role in world affairs has been diminishing because of lack of money for foreign aid. It is also worth pointing out that there are some selfish reasons for being interested in internationalism -- this has always been used by Canada to try and keep some wiggle room between us and the United States. One of the reasons why the current situation is so devastating to Canadian interests is that we have put heavy emphasis on NATO and the United Nations just so that we would not have to say no to the Americans. It is almost as bad as the Mexican conundrum. I think the most interesting thing about what is happening is that Bush is on the verge of destroying the political careers of Saddam Hussein, Tony Blair, and Vincente Fox all at once!!! yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Amos Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:00 PM Wow, PT, he must be a pawahful fellah indeed! No wonder he respectfully disagrees disrespectfully with so many who did not elect him! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Devilmaster Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:22 PM I just want to comment on one point. In Windsor,Ontario(just across from Detroit), a memorial honours Canadians who fought in the Vietnam war with a memorial in Assumption Park. It has been nicknamed by Veterans as the North Wall. Canadian Vietnam War Memorial Another photo Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:46 PM Bill I won't disagree with you Bill, but I will point out that Pierson's contrubution to world peace makes him one of our most admired Prime minister's. A lot of Canadians grew up striving to folow in his footsteps. Peter T what you have said about NATO and the United Nations is insitefull. I would also submit that Canada has also supported NATO because of a traditional alliance with Britian, ties with France and a concern for stability. Canada has supported the UN because it is the best tool for international cooperation and world peace, founded by her ally, the US. I think the most interesting thing about what is happening is that Bush is on the verge of destroying the political careers of Saddam Hussein, Tony Blair, and Vincente Fox all at once!!! yours, Peter T. If this war turns out badly, after the price to the economy and the financial crises in almost all US states, you can add another name to that list, George W. Bush. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:48 PM Thanks Steve. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Date: 13 Mar 03 - 01:28 PM OK, my son just read my post re the Toronto Maple Leafs and was delighted to correct both my math and my date. So to clear things up ... before I get cross-checked by a hockey fan ... On Monday night, Matt Sundin scored his 1000th point, not his 6000th. My son tells me no-one has ever scored 6000 points in the NHL, not even the Great One (Wayne Gretsky). Sheesh and I was watching the game too! The Leafs beat Edmonton 3-1 that night - maybe it was my excitement or something. Thanks Steve for the information/pictures re the Vietnam vets, and to all for your insights! daylia PS Bill I'm determined to find a non-generic Canadian joke now ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Date: 13 Mar 03 - 02:04 PM Daylia, Now you are starting a serious arguement! Even with the return of Don Cherry's golden boy Doug Gilmore, I expect that my favourite team will turn the tables on them this year and send the Leafs to the links. The Ottawa Senators, with a fast young team and the best record in the entire league have added some muscle and experience for thier drive to the cup. Alas, this wiil not be Toronto's year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: gnu Date: 13 Mar 03 - 02:12 PM Dougieeeeee ! Ottawa ? Ottawa ? I think we should attack Ottawa and get rid of their weapons of mass disruption. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Date: 13 Mar 03 - 02:18 PM The area where the Rideau meets the Ottawa river definately be attacked. The Senator's in perhaps their final chance to win a cup as a Canadian team, should be supported. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Amos Date: 13 Mar 03 - 02:48 PM I think that obsession with ice-sports is a secret key to Canada's long and successful neutrality in day-to-day affairs. Notice how deftly this entire very serious thread has been banked off into hockey? It's their national weapon of mass distraction!!! :>) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Date: 13 Mar 03 - 02:57 PM Yo - Jack the Sailor Ottawa does have a fast and highly skilled young team, but players such as Marian Hossa, Todd White, and especially Patrick Lalime have yet to prove themelves as true post-season players. Yes, Ottawa added some toughness by signing Rob Ray and Vaclav Varada at the deadline, but Toronto easily counters that with Owen Nolan and Glen Wesley (don't forget Darcy Tucker either). For the last 3 years, Toronto has had Ottawa's number and I believe they will again if they meet in the post-season. This is probably the best team Toronto has put together since '67 and will be a force to reckon with in the East. You watch for #93. DOUGIEEEEEEE!!!!! Eroc (son of daylia) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Date: 13 Mar 03 - 02:59 PM Sorry bout that Amos. I tried to stop him ..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: gnu Date: 13 Mar 03 - 03:01 PM Jack... I certainly agree. That way, the Yanks will have to pay a higher price for them. Go Senators ! (That just don't sound right... should be an animal.. go Beavers, go Wolverines, go Moosebirds.) BTW, we should be selling the Senate to the Yanks since half of the buggers work for them anyway... the real Senate, I mean. Amos.... shhhh, it's a secret. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Date: 13 Mar 03 - 03:55 PM OK before this thread moves into sudden-death overtime, here a bit of satire about Yanks and Canucks as military allies. YIKES! And I did find a non-generic Canadian joke, Bill! ... "Did you hear about the guy who had a map of Canada tattooed across his butt? Looks great, but every time he sits down Quebec separates!" daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Date: 13 Mar 03 - 04:30 PM A Newfie joke that only applies to Newfies (and maritimers like gnu) I sure hopes dat quebec do seperates. Dat'l cut down da distance to Toronto. Eroc, Gilmore is almost 40, and since 1968, Ottawa and Toronto have exactly the same number of cups. You forgot to mention that Ottawa has picked up a good faceoff man and scorer in Brian Smolinski. The last three years Toronto has out muscled Ottawa, with the players they've added it won't happen this time. Guys like team Captian Daniel Alfredson have taken paycuts so that John Mucklar could go out and get what he needed. These guys are motivated! They know that next year they may not be playing for a contender. They are hungry and they are a better team than Toronto's best team since 1967! Cheers mate, its all in fun Rob |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Bill D Date: 13 Mar 03 - 11:53 PM *LOL*, daylia...that IS Canadian... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Steve Latimer Date: 14 Mar 03 - 01:27 AM Ah, Jack, at the beginning of this thread you were making so much sense. Go Leafs Go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Cluin Date: 14 Mar 03 - 02:10 AM Oh, and by the way, FYI, Canada isn't even a member of the UN Security Council that is such a so much in the news right now. We don't have a vote to hold up like a placard or stonewall on. We just supply troops for peace-keeping and as targets for hopped-up trigger-happy bomber pilots looking to score an important kill so they can get on Letterman and... Sorry... I'm still pissed off at that whole situation and how it's been swept under the rug. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: delphinium Date: 14 Mar 03 - 07:48 AM Cluin that is a sad situation. Unfortunately, British and American troops as well as Canadian have been the victims of so-called "friendly fire" by US bombers, and of course there are countless civilians killed, maimed, displaced and destroyed by different military machines and scared and dehumanized soldiers ... Canada gets its turn on the UN Security Council, I don't think that makes a difference about meeting UN/internatioal obligations. As mentioned above, it is individuals who should get the credit for their accomplishments, but collectively I think Canadians have maybe a little more interest in the shared public good and space than Americans collectively do - for reasons of our history, geography, political system, and no doubt hockey too! Is this true? Is there a "national character"? Are our jokes different? At the risk of icing the puck here, I'll go back to the original topic and comments that daylia & Peter T didn't see this in the news. Hmm ... I got up in Toronto on the 11th and it was the first item on the CBC radio news at 5 & 6 am. I took a train to Kingston later that day and read it in at least 1 newspaper (don't remember which one). This morning I looked at the Globe & Mail of the 12th and there is a large article with photo on page A10 as well as an editorial. When I search the web sites you mention daylia, I find lots about the Kirsch appointment - eg., 4 articles at Toronto Star here, 6 at G&M here, and various at CBC including one here. Our media ain't great but it's not quite that bad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Teribus Date: 14 Mar 03 - 08:30 AM "Daylia", One slight correction to one of your early posts in this thread. The Dieppe Raid was in 1942, so maybe it was just a slip when you said a couple of days before D-Day (June 6th, 1944). Germany's Operation "Sealion" was based on the premise of capturing at least a secondary port intact. The Allies looked into the feasibility of doing the same thing - that was the thinking behind the Dieppe Raid. The result showed that the capture of a port intact was not possible - hence the invention and building of Mulberry 1 & Mulberry 2 - both used off Normandy after the D-Day landings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:12 AM Ah Teribus - I'd forgotten that so much time elapsed between the landing at Dieppe and D-Day. I remembered the story from my dad, who served in the CAF from the 50s to the 80s. He made sure all of us understood how important the Canadian "experiment" at Dieppe was in eventually defeating Hitler on the ground in Europe, starting with the D-Day landing. My father often says the Canadians were used as "guinea pigs" to find out if landing on the occupied beaches would "work" - and the Canadians paid the price at Dieppe. Canadians are still regarded as heroes in that part of the world today - the Belgians especially hold us in the highest regard. At least that's what I discovered when I visited there a few years ago! delphinium I'm speechless (well, almost!) that you found those news stories! I searched all those sites yesterday morning in vain! I've bookmarked the pages so I can navigate those sites better in the future - thank you! As to the questions about Canadian 'character traits', I could go on and on but I think I'll just offer these little quote for now ... "If the national mental illness of the United States is megalomania that of Canada is paranoid schizophrenia." - Margaret Atwood, Canadian writer "Britons put up with, Americans fix, and Canadians cope." - Margaret Mead, American anthropologist Cheers! daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Mar 03 - 04:23 PM Someone was wondering about Canada's "neutrality". Well, although Canada was hardly neutral in the 1st and 2nd World Wars, or the Korean War, or the Boer War...they were to all intents neutral regarding Vietnam, and the general mood toward America's role in that war was not too positive here. Some Canadians volunteered to serve in Vietnam, many opposed the US intervention there, and Canada served as a safe refuge for a great many American draft dodgers and anti-war activists. One of them was my guitar teacher. Given the fact that the USA holds a huge economic stick over our heads at all times, Canadian governments tend to comply with most US demands and fall into line (somewhat unenthusiastically) with all but the most extreme US policies. It will be interesting to see how Jean Chretien dances the tightrope now between not offending his big USA corporate backers too much...and respecting international law at the same time, given a United Nations which is clearly not in favour of Bush's war on Iraq. It will require much dexterity on his part. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: gnu Date: 14 Mar 03 - 04:31 PM George... where you been lad ? Missed your insightful comments over the last while. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Metchosin Date: 14 Mar 03 - 06:21 PM Little Hawk, sorry to pour cold water on what has been a generally, back thumping, Rah Canada! thread but saying "My home and native land" was neutral regading the Vietnam War is a bit of a stretch. This article on what was really going on regarding Canadian Complicity is enlightening for those too young or with short memories. We quite often talk out of both sides of our mouth and Chretien's really good at it, as are most Liberals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Date: 14 Mar 03 - 07:07 PM Teribus, good analysis, I am pleasantly surprised. While the reason for the raid is in question, there is no doubt that those lessons were learned. No doubt the reason you gave was the "official" one. The following link is to an interesting account of the raid. It more or less says that the raid was to prove to the Russians that trying to open a second front would be too deadly and the deaths thousand young Canadians was the proof. I also said that but for a bit of luck some young Brits may have been sacrificed as well. Dieppe Raid I was a Maple Leaf fan as a child, it was thirteen years of disappointment and dispair. Just when I thought that the team was really improving. Harold Ballard would "clean" house and trade away most of the talent to save money on salaries. And why not? If the Gardens had been twice as big its still would have been sold out for every game. The Montreal fans have my grudging respect. When the team lost they stayed home. Montreal had a GOOD team! The Senators may be in first place but they are still underdogs. So in the balttleof Ontario, I'm rooting for them. But against everyone else "GO LEAFS GO!! Little hawk here is a Rex Murphy Column about Canada's involvement in the Iraq crisis. As you can see, I am not the only Newfoundander who can be blunt. Though I don't completely agree, he makes some excellent points. His suggest stance, while morally correct would certianly not be in keeping with Mr Chretien's history. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Mar 03 - 07:08 PM gnu - I was in Trinidad for nearly a month, where I spent about a total of 10 minutes on a computer. This did me a lot of good. I'm now back, but spending less time on the Net. Metchosin - Well, I was speaking about Canadian society in general, not the financial and other maneuverings hidden behind the scenes...but, yes, you have provided an excellent article there, which says a lot about the sorry tragedy of Vietnam...French colonialism, interrupted by Japanese colonialism, replaced by more French colonialism, replaced by American colonialism (under the guise of "helping" a puppet which they themselves created, installed, and propped up...but which they couldn't save with half a million American men and the biggest air force in the World). Canada is right now home to a large arms industry which sells weaponry used to kill people in many places. You are correct...this society is a compliant wolf (apparently without teeth of its own), walking around in sheep's clothing, and assisting the global designs of corporate America. That's because the rich men at the top here get their marching orders (and their income) from corporate America...and God help them if they choose to disregard those orders, because they will shortly be out of a job. The ordinary citizen can do virtually nothing about it too, because all the large political parties have been bought. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Metchosin Date: 14 Mar 03 - 07:20 PM agreed Little Hawk, but at least I'll give the the Conservative and the Canadian Alliance Party credit for being right up front with their rally cry of Go Bush! Go! The Liberals have always been a little more sneaky about their agenda, under their "guise of diplomacy and compromise". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Metchosin Date: 15 Mar 03 - 10:31 AM boy can I kill a thread..........no surprise coming from a dour Canadian cynic with an inability to talk hockey as a diversion. |
