BS: Can someone tell me.......(euphemizing hell)

Subject: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: JennieG
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 07:56 PM

.......why it is that some Murricans and Canadians will not write the word "hell"? Do they think that by writing "H-E-double hockey sticks" they will lessen their chances of ending up there?

I noticed it appearing on blogs a few years ago, and have been intrigued ever since. In this time of home isolation and a certain amount of boredom I thought it the perfect time to ask, because it might give your collective brains something to think about other than "what chair will I sit in today?"

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 08:48 PM

Puritanism

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 08:55 PM

Quite right, Mrrzy.
We get it schooled into us over here.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 09:11 PM

I hadn't noticed, JennieG.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 09:14 PM

Well, hell, I dunno. I always thought that "H-E-double hockey sticks" was said in jest, a humorous euphemism of something that didn't need to be euphemized.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Charmion
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 09:15 PM

People here (rural southwestern Ontario) still flinch at blasphemy and obscenity, especially in the presence of “ladies” and children. It’s just rude, they say, and “inappropriate”.

Now, I cuss like a trooper with a hangover, but I married a son of the manse who grew up in country villages. After thirty years in the Army and more than twenty years married to me, my poor husband still has a hard time with my vocabulary.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: meself
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 09:17 PM

I don't know - but I would assume that the only people writing that are teenage girls just being teenage girls. I'm a Canadian getting long in the tooth, and that is something I've only ever encountered recently on the internet, and it wasn't my impression that it was intended to be taken seriously.

On the other hand, there are certainly Christian fundamentalists who avoid certain such words that have religious implications. They take all that stuff quite seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 09:17 PM

Is THAT what he is? A "son of the manse"? Gee, I didn't know they had those in Canada. And all this time, I just thought he was a nice guy. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: JennieG
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 09:58 PM

No, meself, they weren't teenage girls. They were women, and I would say most would be at least on the shady side of 50.

Charmion - one woman who used this euphemism was indeed from Ontario, just west of Toronto.

Out here in Oz when we want to say or write "hell", we just do.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: meself
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 01:13 AM

Well, I never. I grew up in southern Ontario, and this is new to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 01:17 AM

People who want to swear but are too shy about it and use something like that - might as well not bother. Just say "heck," it's much faster.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 01:58 AM

It's not just the word 'hell'. You get 'sh1t' or 'sh!t' as well. Otherwise sensible people here on Mudcat write about f*lk music and Fakebook, as if the very utterance of the actual word causes them pain. They think that they are being clever but it is just a childish affectation which becomes really annoying after a while.

Minced oaths have been around a long time in the spoken word. I use 'heck' without thinking but I find 'oh my gosh' for 'oh my God' really gets up my nose. Writing was normally used for more formal communication but with the coming of emails and texts, which are typed rather than written long-hand, alternatives such as the double hockey sticks have become available.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 02:28 AM

we also say/write other 4-letter words like gosh & darn ...

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 04:13 AM

Oooh this is fascinating! Bill Bryson in his book Mother Tongue devotes a whole chapter to swearing. His is an interesting perspective because he's an American who has lived for many years in UK.

I love 'minced oaths' although I'm ashamed to say I can swear like a trooper when riled, even in Malinke.

There are so many ways of expressing oneself in anger or surprise.
I like:- "Oh my giddy aunt!"
       "Well go to the foot of our stairs!"
       "Open the front door!"
       "Strike a light!"
and a whole selection of rude insults involving various genitalia!
'Hell' seems rather feeble in comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 04:18 AM

Altering expletives to make them sound or look less direct is just bollix. I mean, feck that. It's so frickin' childish. What the h*ll is wrong with these stupid James Blunts... They're just funkin' barstewards...

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 04:23 AM

Steve, :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 04:32 AM

Hee hee Steve! Our very Norfolk neighbour often says, "What the floiying hev yew been a-doing?" (to avoid saying the f word) or "Their blaaarsted dawg hev done a tom-tit on R gaaaarden!" (ie shit)

Cockney rhyming slang has dozens and dozens of euphemisms for swear-words,eg Donald Duck, Dipstick (prick), Bristols (Bristol City = titty), George The Third (turd)
I have a book/dictionary of these called Cockney Rabbit by Ray Puxley.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 11:15 AM

Here it is h-e-double *toothpicks* ... Here being the Southern US.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 11:15 AM

My father used to say: "Gotdandruffandsomeofititches"... to my mother's chagrin.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: meself
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 11:22 AM

There is a danger of sounding rather pompous when casting judgement on the language-usage of others, especially of those in geographical, social, or generational regions not your own. What in one regional context is clearly a euphemism may in another just be a more-or-less neutral, common word; i.e., the speaker is not deliberately using it to replace an objectionable word. So to suggest that, for instance, if someone uses 'gosh' or 'darn' it is because they are too prissy to say, 'God' or 'damn' reflects either limited experience or limited imagination. In all likelihood, the speaker of these 'euphemisms' has no urge to say 'God' or 'damn' - they probably grew up with 'gosh' and 'darn' in the familial and local vernacular and simply carried on the speech they had grown up with. If they were to expunge 'gosh' and 'darn' from their lexicon and replace them with 'God' and 'damn', it would be through deliberate effort - why should they bother? So someone on the internet won't sneer at them?

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 11:33 AM

I don't think I've heard the euphemism in question, "H-E-double hockey sticks" used in the 3D world. It's usually deployed in films and on television by characters who are made to appear buffoonish by it's usage.
The America I grew up in is full of profane characters and language and my personal favorite expletive is "Jesus H. Fuckin' Christ".

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 05:33 PM

Unfortunately, I also use that one, but only because (a) there's little historical evidence that he existed, (b) even if he did he probably faced the same frustrations as the rest of us and swore like a trooper (who wouldn't, forced to hang out with a scruffy bunch of twelve blokes and no women), and (c) because I think he'd have thought that it was bloody funny. Bugger me sideways with a burnt chip if I'm wrong (and cheers to Raggytash for that beauty...)

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 07:03 PM

Heavens to Betsy! Such language! Why, shade my eyes but you folks are plumb earthy in your talking! Golly, I wonder why that is? Charmion I can see, given that she was a Command Sergeant Major and they are well know for their command of the Queen's English. But I was only a lowly three-stripe sergeant who was given command of the rottenest group of bastards who ever fouled the earth with their shit. But that was in the US Army and I certainly would never use any language that might give my Aunt Mildred offense. Aunt Mildred was a long-haul trucker who never used any oath greater than "My goodness gracious sakes alive!"

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 07:39 PM

For goodness sake, Rapparee. You surely mean "the rottenest group of b*ast*ards who ever fouled the Earth with their shi*t..." Do keep it clean, my dear man...

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: JennieG
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 09:19 PM

I quite like "Christ on a cracker"......have come across it in the occasional book written by an American author.

It does beg the question though - what cracker? The one Polly wants?

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 03:36 AM

I always thought that "H-E-double hockey sticks" was said in jest, a humorous euphemism of something that didn't need to be euphemized.

Well, when I watched US Arena Cross or similar 4 wheel stuff the winner usually says something like "I wrung the heck outta it".

Not to cause offence while plugging their sponsors? As if the grammar doesn't send shivers down the spine of us Brits. Don'tya know? Old bean!

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 03:58 AM

The same reason why you use "Murricans."

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 04:06 AM

They think that they are being clever but it is just a childish affectation which becomes really annoying after a while

May be they are being just a soupcon too subtle for some folks. Saying Fakebook is saying something about the medium. A polite warning, unheeded obviously.

Ya just canna help some people. And a lotta them are on Fakebook.

I guess using phrases like coordinated inauthentic is a step too far for them. Dunning-Kruger noticed it too..................

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 06:01 AM

"'The same reason why you use 'Murricans.'"

Many moons ago I used to delight in calling the more right-wing yanks on a certain website (that no longer exists) "Merkins." Which, of course, is another name for a pubic wig. Christ on a bike, I enjoyed doing that! (<>evil grin emoticon)

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 07:42 AM

Hahahaaaaaagh Steve! I'd never heard of that word!!!!
Oh I really want one of those! Now what colour would I like? Ginger? Black-and-white stripes (a zebra merkin)? I know! Norwich City FC colours: yellow and green!
(Husband would have a floiying fit!)

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Charmion
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 01:08 PM

Y'know, many on-line platforms block the most popular blasphemies and obscenities, especially the seven words you must never say on television. I'm sure that's an influence on some people.

Back in the day when I was employed at National Defence Headquarters, one of my many odd little tasks was writing or translating the captions for photographs distributed from our Combat Camera unit to the commercial news media. Now, the DND wide-area network has famously twitchy monitoring software, but I never knew how twitchy it was until one day when I was writing captions for photos of the dedication of the First Nations war memorial, a ceremony attended by literally every aboriginal big-wig in the country. I had just finished Googling for the name of the then National Chief of the Assembly of first Nations when my screen blanked and a message popped up to inform me that I had been nabbed in the act of accessing "inappropriate" material.

What set it off? Well, the National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations at that time was one Matthew Coon Come of the Cree nation in northern Quebec.

As for H-E-Double hockey sticks, I believe it is the 21st-century urban Canadian version of Tarnation.

But fuck 'em all if they won't take a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Charmion
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 01:25 PM

Senoufou, you might just remember an actor and musician named Anthony Newley. One of his later film outings was this sex farce, which did considerable damage to several careers.

I saw this film at a second-run cinema that showed double bills (often wildly mismatched) with my mother, who probably sat through it to get to whatever was on the other half of the bill. I was about 16 at the time, and I remember thinking, "Does Mum realize what's going on in this movie?"

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 01:36 PM

billy connolly was the first to make swearing acceptable in scotland and the rest of the uk. probably because he was so funny people forgot to be offended. or maybe because the majority of the national audience didn't quite understand the accent. or maybe just - after all the coy censorship - here was someone just talking our language. of course - father ted took it all to a different feckin level!

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 05:03 PM

I do remember Anthony Newley Charmion, (didn't he sing 'What Kind of Fool Am I?' and 'Pop Goes The Weasel'?) but I never saw him playing Merkin! hee hee!
When I lived in Glasgow decades ago, everyone swore like Billy Connolly, and the words formed a sort of rhythm. Never the 'c' word though, just 'f'. I really adored Rab C Nesbitt too. (His comment to a homeless beggar: "See you? Away and fucking worrrk!"

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 05:54 PM

Ok what is a pubic wig/merkin?

I have been, as an avid atheist, trying to ban deity-based swears from my vocabulary since the 1980's. I came home from my first semester at college saying god this and goddamn that and pissed off my atheist dad.

So I decided not to use god (or names/euphemisms therefor), damn (ditto), heaven or hell (ditto again for those). I was left with shit and fuck and, for emphasis, very. It is paralyzing.

I say My word! a lot. And when really mad, thus with no time to edit, god and damn and hell still, after decades, are what pop out.

So my kids could always tell if I was *really* angry.

But my reason is that I don't want to perpetuate the dangerous myth.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Joe_F
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 06:06 PM

When I was in elementary school, one could refer to 4377 upside down & backwards.

It is indeed curious that in America "Hell" is the standard profanity. No brat wishing to risk getting his mouth washed out with soap would bother with "God" or "Christ".

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: JennieG
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 06:53 PM

Back in my childhood my mother - or indeed any adult, if there were children present - would never say "shit". "Bugger" was her worst, but the occasional "bloody" did slip out. My father didn't swear in front of us. If we heard an adult say "shit" in our presence we knew things would go rapidly downhill, usually to our detriment.

If she was really provoked she would say "oh....sugarmagundy!" I have no idea where that came from, but it was reserved for times such a bowl full of cake mix being dropped on the floor.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 07:37 PM

I'm not one given to excessive profanities online. I never say "fuck" or "fucking" unless I'm quoting someone, though I never judge them wot do use 'em. There's something in my brain that rails against "cunt" in public. It's probably to do with the fact that a cunt is a part of a woman's body and that I therefore don't like the word used pejoratively. I mean, why would I use it thus when I know what a beautiful place it is? In fact, when I'm on my own in my car and exhibiting barely controlled road rage (which means road rage with my windows still wound up and when I've definitely ascertained that the bugger who's annoyed me is either old, a lady, or a bloke who's much littler than me...), I use the word with embarrassing freedom, along with a good few choice others. As in, for the little old bloke who's positioned himself so badly to turn right that I can't pass him on the inside, "Why don't you f*uck off and die upside down in a ditch, you degenerate old c*unt..."

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 10:44 PM

I once read someone's bemused account of hearing a beautifully-done up young lady stepping off the curb and in exasperation crying out: Oh SHIT! I stepped in some doggy doo doo.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: JennieG
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 12:56 AM

Ha ha, Ebbie......I love it!

Charmion, were you able to get around the swear wall to enter the chief's name?

Saying "Murricans" is the same as those Australians who call themselves "Strayans"......the occasional person (usually someone who plays sport, or a politician) representing Australia who cannot pronounce the name of his/her country correctly has turned me into one of those Olde Phartes who yells at the TV. It isn't "Straya".

As the song says, I'm bloody well Australian through and through.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 01:20 AM

We had a book on how to speak Strine.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 02:18 AM

'Let's Talk Strine' by Afferbeck Lauder. I've got that book Mrrzy, and it's really funny. It took me years until I realised the author's name isn't real (alphabetical order - geddit?)

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: JennieG
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 02:35 AM

Oh yes - I remember when that book was first published. It's very funny.

Here's a quote from my etiquette book bought at a library cull several years ago, a 1982 reprint of a book first published in 1886:

"Prudery.
Avoid an affectation of excessive modesty. Do not use the word "limb" for "leg". If legs are really improper, then let us, on no account, mention them, but having found it necessary to mention them, let us by all means give them their appropriate name."

I think, from spelling and terms used, that this book was first published in the U.S.A. Title is "Australian etiquette, or the rules and usages of the best society in the Australasian Colonies, together with their sports, pastimes, games and amusements. Revised, illustrated and compiled expressly as a household treasure for Australian homes."

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 05:19 AM

Some of the examples from 'Let's Talk Strine':-

dimension (don't mention it)
Emma Chisit? (how much is it?)
Aorta mica Laura genst (they ought to make a law against)
Ark Ellery (art gallery)
bra sharp your Strine!

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: meself
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 11:45 AM

'the winner usually says something like "I wrung the heck outta it".

Not to cause offence while plugging their sponsors?'

I doubt it - it's probably just their usual manner of speech. As I tried (why?) to point out above, there are many people in North America who use words like 'heck" and "darn" just because they use them - they are not trying struggling to avoid saying something potentially offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:27 PM

Oh my word. No, I never got that. Hanging head in shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: BobL
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 02:59 AM

I read somewhere that every human language has swear words of some sort or another, except for Japanese and some Native American tongues.
Can anyone confirm if this is true, and if so, how would those people let off steam?

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: JennieG
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:12 AM

Perhaps they jump up and down until smoke comes out of their ears?

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:20 AM

In Suffolk, when we want to say 'hell', we say 'Norfolk'! (Oops, sorry, Sen.....

Subject: RE: BS: Can someone tell me.......
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:21 AM

Or skweem and skweem until they're sick.
I thought 'kuso' is a Japanese swear word for 'shit'?