BS: Jingoism or Commemoration

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:53 AM

That's tragic! I bet Keith hadn't coloured them all in yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 04:05 AM

The reason that more recent histories are kinder to the perpetrators if WWI is that those writing them are too young to have heard many first hand accounts of its horrors. They may have read war diaries, but largely not these either. Also, the point raised by Guest is pertinant, there is a conscious effort by modern politicians, and Gove is but one, to whitewash the past in order to strengthen their justification for repeating its mistakes. Eric Bogle summed it in the verse, disgracefully omitted by Joss Stone and the British Legion in their sanitised version of No Mans Land:

"And I can't help but wonder, now Willie Mcbride,
Do all those who lie here know why they died?
Did you really believe them when they told you 'The Cause? '
Did you really believe that this war would end wars?
Well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame
The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain,
For Willie McBride, it all happened again,
And again, and again, and again, and again."

Killing and Dying will always be done in vain whilst the outcomes are dictated by the egos of politicians. Modern Historians are just their useful idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 04:06 AM

"Meanwhile, on this thread.. Teribus reckons that the early accounts, fresh and by many caught up in the war are all lies and only the more recent ones are accurate. "

More lies, more misrepresentation.

The early accounts, written by those who actually took part I have described as being personal memoirs and as such they are factual accounts of personal experiences and are totally one-sided, giving only snap-shots of what was going on. The writers of those memoirs had no access to material that was classified and would remain secret for 50, 60, 70 and 100 years, they had no idea of what drove events from the point of view of their own side let alone what drove them from the perspectives of their French allies and the German enemy.

Jom and Musktwat then invented atrocity stories and made extremely serious allegations against those in command of the British Army, first it was the Military Police and then it was officers who were ordered to summarily execute British Soldiers for not getting out of their trenches quickly enough, then according to Musktwat it was a crowd that he laughlingly referred to as "The REDTOPS" what did it, then Jom's "Special Groups of Military Police" whot dun it. Oddly enough to substantiate this all they (specifically Jom) can offer up are verbal accounts by two veterans - one of whom was definitely a veteran but who contradicted what he said he saw, and another who Jom did not not even verify and satisfy himself that he even ever served in the Army at all. Having made the allegations and presented them as indisputable fact on this forum, I spent a great deal of time researching for ANY evidence of it - I FOUND NOTHING. So are all those accounts "written by those who actually took part" in the immediate aftermath of the war all wrong? Are they all liars? You see GHOST in all those memoirs there are no accounts of any such summary executions - And before you quote Harry Patch at me remember his recollections, far from being "fresh", were given to the BBC when Harry was over 100 years old - nearly 80 years after the event.

If you do not find it strange that men of a particular platoon did not know each others names - I DO. If you do not find it strange that men of a particular platoon did not know the names of the officers and NCOs that they would have to report to every single day - THEN I DO. If you do not find it strange that those giving accounts of such summary executions cannot name a single victim or the name of a single officer who was supposed to have carried out such an execution - I DO. If you can look at a picture of a front line trench (Make sure you are looking at the trench from which attacks are mounted) and tell me where there was room for a line of Military Policemen, or indeed ANYBODY, to position themselves behind those about to go over the top then you will have found a rather unique photograph. Keith A and myself are accused of always slavishly accepting the side of the establishment, well it would appear from the above that while you are prepared to accept any cock-and-bull story because it feeds your prejudices and bias, Keith A and myself challenge stories told to us and demand proof - proof which so far has yet to be offered.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 04:10 AM

Dave, the brand new purpose built Hertford library is magnificent! You should pay a visit.
There are two other library branches within 3 miles (Ware and Hoddesdon) and for 60p I can ask for any book held in any library in Hertfordshire to be delivered within two working days.

What a nasty, pathetic attempt to denigrate me Dave.
All you people can do is make personal attacks because none of you know anything.
You have the conceit to believe the history books are wrong and you are right.
~Ignorant fools.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 04:20 AM

All you people can do is make personal attacks because none of you know anything.

Not at all true, Keith. People make personal attacks because they know you are a pompous ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HILo
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 04:37 AM

Just let me get this straight mr gnome....... You are clearly ignorant on the subject of history, you post nonsense about history and yet Keith is the pompous ass... And furthermore he is worthy of contempt because he knows more than you do. Have I got this mr gnome?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 04:38 AM

People make personal attacks because they know you are a pompous ass.

A bit rich coming from you Lofty.

GUEST,Dave - PM
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 04:05 AM

The reason that more recent histories are kinder to the perpetrators if WWI is that those writing them are too young to have heard many first hand accounts of its horrors. They may have read war diaries, but largely not these either. Also, the point raised by Guest is pertinant, there is a conscious effort by modern politicians, and Gove is but one, to whitewash the past in order to strengthen their justification for repeating its mistakes."

GUEST Dave, the one who appears to know nothing, historians who have made it their life's work and their specialisation in studying the period in question know a great deal more about it than either yourself, your pals, and Eric Bogle. They have had access both written and oral to a vast amount of material that is only accessible to accredited historians undertaking research - don't dismiss it so lightly.

Can either you or nameless GHOST (He/She of the pertinant (sic) point) provide any sane, reasonable or logical explanation for there being any need to whitewash the past? I can tell you very very plainly and simply why the likes of David Lloyd George and Winston Churchill wrote what they did during the revisionist period.

On your quote from Bogle's "No Mans Land", these two snatches from by Stephen L. Suffet's "Willie McBride's Reply" are more accurate than Eric Bogle's "No Mans Land"

1: "Ask the people of Belgium or Alsace-Lorraine,
If my life was wasted, If I died in vain,
I think they will tell you when all's said and done,
They welcomed this boy with his tin hat and gun.


2: It's easy for you to look back and sigh,
And pity the youth of those days long gone by,
For us who were there, we all knew why we died,
And I'd do it again, says young Willie McBride"

If you've got a month I'll go through the glaring inaccuracies and errors contained in Bogle's "No Mans Land" and "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda".

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 05:09 AM

you post nonsense about history

I haven't posted anything about history, HiLo. You really need to do some research before you make (more of) a fool of yourself. I suggested you provided evidence last time. You still have not done so.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 05:13 AM

Teribums - Is that really the best you have got; imitating my ideas? Tsk, tsk. 0/10 for effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 06:17 AM

Churchill and Lloyd George were of course part of the ego-driven political class of the time, for whom the need was to whitewash their own past. There are plenty of current historians who do not agree with the Keith/Teribus/HiLo assessment. Mayer and Schroeder, whose political views are at opposite ends of the spectrum, are examples.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 06:24 AM

"Perhaps it is time for this bullshit to be put where it belongs and allow people to have rational discourse!"

Interesting point coming from your posts Hilo. You have now posted 33 times to this thread and have added nil to the debate on either jingoism or commemoration and the same amount about WW1 in general.

Just pointing that out.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 06:37 AM

Funnily enough, I thought this section of the Mudcat was called BS because it was for, well, BS... Where else would bullshit belong? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 06:56 AM

Whereas you and your mates have contributed what Raggy?

GUEST Dave Mayer and Schroeder!!!! Is that who you come up with? The former a Marxist Historian who believed that Britain in 1914 was on the verge of a revolution and civil war (I'd like to see his proof of any evidence for making that assumption) and the latter who blamed the war on Great Britain Not taking the Austro-Hungarian Empire seriously enough - How bloody idiotic can you get?

"Churchill and Lloyd George were of course part of the ego-driven political class of the time, for whom the need was to whitewash their own past."

Very true GUEST Dave - yet those are the men who sought for the very motives you detail to blacken the name of a man who could not defend himself - they rather cowardly waited until after Haig died to come out with their "Butcher of the Somme" label that you and your pals latch onto and give credence to.

There are plenty of current historians who do not agree with the Keith/Teribus/HiLo assessment.

Please name them - Mayer and Schroeder don't make the grade, neither have specialised in the history of the First World War, Mayer in particular seems to come from a starting point located and fixed somewhere in cloud cuckoo-land.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 06:58 AM

I did not comment on jingoism or commemoration simply because I had not seen the programme that prompted that debate. Thread creep took the conversation in two other directions....... 1) tithe reliability of historians. A grossly misinformed person made the erroneous and sweeping statement that historians did not do their homework..the second path the debate took was on specific facts regarding the first war wherein both Keith and Teribus presented facts.
My first posting on this thread came well after the jingo and commem. Theme had been left. My responses have been largely to do with the defence of historians against the suggestion that they are all hacks.
I did observe on several occasions that teribus knew his history and went rings around some very very stupid arguments. One would not have to be genius to see which side of the debate presented facts and which side not. simple really.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 07:05 AM

"Keith and Teribus presented facts"

Anything to back that assertion up other than the views they quote agreeing with your prejudice HiLo?

Even they occasionally concede that history narrative concludes with an opinion assessing the evidence.

Very occasionally.

When taken off guard.

I love the bit above where Teribus accuses Dave the Gnome of personal attacks and then immediately calls him Lofty!
😆

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 07:11 AM

So yet again one, nay two, historians bite the dust.




And another one's gone
another one's gone
another one bites the dust


I'll have to stick to reading The Good Soldier (The Biography of Douglas Haig) by Gary Mead.


Interesting viewpoint to kick it all off though. Its entitled "THE" biography not "A" biography.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 07:18 AM

For God sake guest , have you not read the thread at all? As for Raggy, same old nonsense.
In any case , I shall leave you all to it, you can,t educate pork.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 07:29 AM

Still awaiting the evidence of my posting nonsense about history, HiLo. Are you too busy giving out the personal abuse that you are so against? As to "I shall leave you all to it". Well, many others have said the same before. I suspect you will not keep your promise either :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 07:45 AM

Dave,
There are plenty of current historians who do not agree with the Keith/Teribus/HiLo assessment.

We all know there used to be some historians who used to believe those now debunked myths.
That is why I always refer to everything written in the last twenty years. Neither of your two have written anything on WW1 in that time.
Older than that hardly counts as "current" Dave!

No historian still believes those old discredited myths you cling to.
Unless and until you find one, please stop wasting our time.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 08:20 AM

So Mayer and Schroeder don't make the grade, but Max Hastings does??? Dear oh dear.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 08:47 AM

That's because they don't fit the "criteria"

What's the criteria you may ask ............. hmmmmm ........ don't really know because it changes on a regular basis and is known only to the select, nay chosen, few.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 09:24 AM

What's the criteria you may ask ............. hmmmmm ........ don't really know...

Keith has explained the criteria at some length: not dead, "mainstream", books available in regular bookshops, work for the tabloid press, only English-speaking need apply, pick their noses with the left hand & etc & etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 09:37 AM

History is based on hard facts and knowledge.
It has nothing to do with fashion, being trendy, or protecting long dead people.

It used to be possible to make something of a case for what you believe, and a few did.
Current historians have all the knowledge available to them, plus a lot more that has become available since.
It has led to that rare thing, a consensus, at least on the issues we have discussed.

I have only ever claimed that consensus for the last twenty years.
Anything older is irrelevant to anything I have ever claimed, so why mention it?

So, can you produce anything written in recent times?
No.
I can. Lots.

Unless and until you can find one single historian who still believes that old debunked shit you cling to, STOP WASTING OUR TIME!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 09:39 AM

Q.E.D.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 09:40 AM

Me.
"Nothing written in the last twenty years supports your views."

Dave,
"Here is something written fifty years ago that does."

So what Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 09:45 AM

At the risk of repeating myself, just how much of what has been written in the last 20 years have you read? If I remember rightly you do not even know how much has been written in the last 20 years so how do you know it ALL supports you?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 09:48 AM

Not QED Greg.
You have demonstrated nothing.

I have never claimed any consensus until about twenty years ago.
That is not a spurious reason for rejecting shit older than that.
I have always acknowledged that some historians used to believe it.
You have just demonstrated what I had acknowledged anyway from the start of all this.

Dave, I do not know or care how much stuff has been written, just that none of it contradicts my expressed views.
That is why none of you have found anything in three years of this one sided debate.

Unless and until one of you does find something, which you won't, STOP WASTING OUR TIME!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 09:54 AM

Me,
"There are no red swans."

Dave the Gnome,
"How many swans exist? Have you seen them all? Just because no-one has ever seen one...."

There are no red swans Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 10:07 AM

Shows how much you know Keith:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/ait/ait08.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 10:08 AM

If history is based on hard facts and knowledge, why do the commentators disagree and present alternatives?

Keith's little list isn't consistent, so such a naive statement is rather concerning really.

I'm sure if they knew people of such dismal intelligence were to read their book in the same silly way they read the bible, they'd write differently.

Talk about a little knowledge being dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 10:11 AM

Go back and check who it was that introduced the "It Ain't Half Hot Mum" theme to the discussion GUEST - 14 Dec 15 - 07:05 AM.

Simple rule in throwing invective around on this forum nameless GHOST if you can't take it then don't start it. I will treat anyone as respectfully as they threat me.

But that is the thing I found out about bullies and I learned it at a very early age - they don't like being hit back and complain loudly when they are. After making idiotic statements the Joms, Musktwats, Raggy, the Daves all they have left to resort to are personal attacks and made up shit, don't really object to any of that as it illustrates to everyone what complete and utter prats they actually are.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 10:13 AM

This thread has only been going since November 10th, so its unlikely that it has wasted three years of anybody's time. Also, does nobody else see inconsistency in the following statements (from the same post):

"History is based on hard facts and knowledge."

"I have only ever claimed that consensus for the last twenty years.
Anything older is irrelevant to anything I have ever claimed, so why mention it?"

For the record, I agree with the first, and whether something was written 20, 50 or 100 years ago has no bearing on its validity.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 10:19 AM

"What's the criteria"

Silly question Raggy the criteria has been given often enough - only thing is none of you are prepared to accept that if you want an accurate and comprehensive view of the period in question you read the works of an historian who has specialised in that period ( It is roughly the same as if you want a complex fault fixed on your central heating you go to a specialist to sort it out - you don't go to the village handyman). So far none of those you and your pals have put forward meet the criteria - go away and find someone who has specialised in the period and subject of the First World War who subscribe to your tired, cliched, and disproven beliefs - you've been asked it often enough all you lot have to do is come up with one name.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 10:48 AM

For the record, I agree with the first, and whether something was written 20, 50 or 100 years ago has no bearing on its validity.

A statement of astonishing ignorance!
Knowledge increases.
Understanding moves on.

On the issues we have discussed there is now a consensus.
All the history books say the same thing.
To challenge that, all you have to is produce one that differs.
Until you can, there is nothing to discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 11:00 AM

Very good, Keith. You are getting the knack of the difference between theory and fact. Trouble is with your example is that the world of swans has, I think, been fully explored. All the histories of WW1 written recently have not been, Well, not by you, me or anyone here at any rate.

Teribums. I think if anyone was to look back through the thread they would see who is doing most of the the abusing. There is also the fact that it was Keith that said that all historians agree etc. It is therefore up to Keith to prove his claim, not for someone to disprove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 11:04 AM

just how much of what has been written in the last 20 years have you read?

The Professor? Virtually none, and if you care to go thru the tedium of searching this and other similar threads, he's admitted as much several times.

Dave, I do not know or care how much stuff has been written, just that none of it contradicts my expressed views.

See? The Professor knows all without the bother of having to read.

Q.E.D. 2nd.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:00 PM

"whether something was written 20, 50 or 100 years ago has no bearing on its validity."

Really GUEST Dave??

So someone let's call him David Lloyd George decides to write a book in which he firmly attaches blame on an individual who having recently died is in no position to defend his good name. In this book David Lloyd George places the blame for the deaths of soldiers on this individual on account of him choosing the battlefield, the timing of the battle and for his continuation of the battle, David Lloyd George does this knowing that those facts will be covered by government restrictions until 50, 60, 70 or even 100 years have elapsed, David Lloyd George writes these things knowing full well that it was he, David Lloyd George, who put Great Britain's armies under the command and disposal of French Generals, that it was he David Lloyd George, who insiusted that in 1916 the attacks had to be made on the Somme instead of in Flanders where Haig wanted to attack and vice versa in 1917 when David Lloyd George insisted that the attacks should be made in Flanders when Haig wanted the attack to be launched on the Somme where conditions best suited the tanks. It was David Lloyd George who knew full well it would years after his death that his guilt and culpability in the events relating to the Somme and Passchendaele would come to light and become public knowledge.

Of course works written 20, 50, 70 years ago once proven to be based on incorrect knowledge or understanding are no longer relevant - only a complete and utter idiot would suggest otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:08 PM

Lofty when you've got anything even remotely germane to this thread to contribute give me a nudge - so far you are prattling on about nothing. Leave it to the grown ups to understand a comment when it is made and the context in which that comment is made - your literal pedantic crap is tiresome, but as you seem to have to indulge in it carry on dancing on the head of your pin.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,dave
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:14 PM

Knowledge, or at least understanding, doesn't always move on, sometimes things which were quite well understood are clouded by more recent, flawed, research, or, by flawed opinions based upon preconceptions and political positions. Or maybe even by personal self-justification. As to whether Haig or Lloyd George was the more culpable for the disaster of the Somme, well thats a futile argument between a pot and a kettle. Though LLoyd George was in part responsible for the entry of Britain into the war in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:28 PM

Dave the Gnome - 14 Dec 15 - 11:00 AM

Teribums [QED] I think if anyone was to look back through the thread they would see who is doing most of the the abusing."

Lofty if anyone was to look back through THIS thread they would find that it was your pal Raggytash who started the abusing and GUEST Dave who pulled him up on it - but there again Lofty when did you ever let facts get in the way of YOUR narrative?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:28 PM

When you have nothing left and your flush us well and truly busted, you revert to abuse.

Hence the "Lofty" insult at Dave the Gnome. It's bad enough sanitising the awful role the British military had in countless deaths and the slur on the memory of the fallen that Teribus and Keith A of Hertford insist on spouting, but to keep attacking those of us who merely wished to discuss the influence of jingoism on the act of commemoration, well you'd think they'd have some common decency?

Apparently not.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:35 PM

... when your flush IS ....

I reckon Gary Sheffield wrote the autocorrect algorithm for my iPhone.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:41 PM

Teribums. your literal pedantic crap is tiresome Yet you still carry on responding. Amazing!

Guest, 12:28. It's no insult. Honest! Teribums could not insult me if he swallowed a dictionary of insults washed down with a draught of disdain. He hasn't got the imagination. Lofty had an excellent singing voice. Sergeant Major Shoutalot had nothing but bluster and was made to look a fool at every opportunity. Pretty much like here :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:50 PM

GUEST,dave - 14 Dec 15 - 12:14 PM He any different from GUEST Dave??

"Knowledge, or at least understanding, doesn't always move on, sometimes things which were quite well understood are clouded by more recent, flawed, research, or, by flawed opinions based upon preconceptions and political positions."

Examples of this please? Could be that GUEST,dave was the nameless one who considered that any historical theory was cyclical but who when asked could provide no such examples - This will undoubtedly result in no examples to prove this theory coming forward. But a few questions for dave:

1: What flawed research? Do you dispute that today there are far wider and more comprehensive research material available to the historian interested in the period. An Historians conclusions are drawn from his research so what preconceptions and political positions are you referring to - any examples of these? I would offer up Alan Clark and his book "The Donkeys", written as the 50th anniversay of the start of the Great War was approaching and written by his own admission to earn him a few quid (He also admitted to making up "The Lion's led by Donkeys" Quote)


2: "As to whether Haig or Lloyd George was the more culpable for the disaster of the Somme, well thats a futile argument between a pot and a kettle."

Only thing wrong there dave, if you look at the entirety of the Somme campaign it was without any shadow of a doubt a strategic defeat for the Germans and a tactical victory for the Entente Powers. It forced a general German retreat to the Hindenburg Line, Falkenhayn the German Commander on the Western Front was dismissed and resulted in irreparable damage being done to the German Army. It was the first major campaign fought by Great Britain's first citizen Army and from it they went from strength to strength. Lloyd George and the British Government were undoubtedly culpable - it was they who put Haig and the British Armies in Europe under French command (Joffre), it was they who backed Joffre's insistence that the attack be made on the Somme, thereby over-ruling Haig's preferred location.

"Though LLoyd George was in part responsible for the entry of Britain into the war in the first place."

The vote to declare war on Germany following the German invasion of Belgium was, I believe, taken by the House of Commons.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 01:04 PM

"It's bad enough sanitising the awful role the British military had in countless deaths and the slur on the memory of the fallen that Teribus and Keith A of Hertford insist on spouting, but to keep attacking those of us who merely wished to discuss the influence of jingoism on the act of commemoration, well you'd think they'd have some common decency?"

Who was it that wished to discuss the influence of jingoism on the act of commemoration? I think a bunch of idiots got confused and mixed up the RBL Festival of Remembrance with the Service of Remembrance. I think a bunch of idiots posted and incorrectly and inaccurately proclaimed that the RBL Festival of Remembrance was a CofE thing. I think it was a bunch of ignorant ill-informed idiots who when their errors were pointed out to them resorted to name calling.

Take a wee turn back down the thread GHOST you will find that I am right in stating the above.

Oh Dear, How Sad; Never Mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:01 PM

"and resulted in irreparable damage being done to the German Army"

Never, ever I have read such a utterly stupid, absolutely inane and totally naïve comment placed on ANY thread on Mudcat.

Is that the same irreparable damage that allowed the German forces just two decades later to sweep across Europe.



What a supremely idiotic remark.


(wait for the back-tracking and half hearted justifications)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:03 PM

Teribus,

First, I did not at any time "pull up" or accuse Raggytash of abuse, I noted that the thread was started by him and the title chosen by him, but that title is not abuse.

Second, I know that knowledge doesn't always move on because I am an actual researcher in a different subject entirely, I could give you examples but there isn't any point (though I have had a debate with Keith on another thread about some). I have no reason to doubt that the same occurs in research in history.

Third, amazingly and appallingly you have described the Somme as a tactical victory. At a cost of well over a million killed or maimed, over 400,000 in the British Army alone. What kind of tactical victory is that?

Similar numbers died at Passchendaele and we have already seen that we could have had a negotiated peace before that.

Finally you absolve Lloyd George of responsibility by saying that the House of Commons voted to declare war on Belgium. Lloyd George was a member of the House of Commons when it did so. And he seems to have voted for the war. Whatever else Haig did he didn't have that on his conscience.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:06 PM

"'History is based on hard facts and knowledge.'

As someone with an actual Doctorate in the subject, I find that to be one of the most depressing statements I've ever read on this site.'"

And why would that be GUEST Modette? Was the First World War a fact or not - or was it all just imagined? Does knowledge have no place in the make up, study and research of any given period in history? Where did your Doctorate come from - A Cornflakes packet?

Perhaps you subscribe to the Alan Clark school of history where you just "Make Up Shit" in order to provoke controversy in order to turn a quick profit.

Floors yours I am all ears, dying to hear what you have to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:14 PM

Modette,

That statement is up there with:

"absolute proof is a requirement in Science."

Same author, same thread, 3 days ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:16 PM

GUEST,Dave - 14 Dec 15 - 03:03 PM

Teribus,

First, I did not at any time "pull up" or accuse Raggytash of abuse, I noted that the thread was started by him and the title chosen by him, but that title is not abuse."

Really GUEST Dave?? Care to explain this exchange then:

24th post to this thread and the first example of name calling on the thread:

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash - PM
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 03:12 PM

A rather bold statement professor, could you provide us with some evidence to substantiate your claim.

26th post to this thread:
Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave - PM
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 03:55 AM

Keith is of course right, I don't always agree with everything he says but I find the instant aggression of some posters on here towards him a bit disturbing.

Don't tell me – different GUEST; Dave RIGHT???