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BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: CarolC Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:58 PM Do I spot here the hidden lesbophobia or just a minor slip? It was a slip. It was late. I spotted it myself after it was too late to correct it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: Wolfgang Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:00 PM why are there so many more homosexual than heterosexual paedophiles....in real percentage terms (Ake) I'm scratching my head over the "real percentage terms" because I don't know what you mean. It might be wrong. My argument is: (1) The percentage of pedophiles among homosexual men is higher than it is among heterosexual men. (2) Since there are so many more heterosexual men than homosexual men the percentage of heterosexual men among pedophiles is higher than that of homosexual men. (3) Argument (1) doesn't matter for political argumentation for the higher percentage is still very low in absolute terms. (4) We do not treat males in general differently from females just because their crime rate (pedophilia) is higher than that of females, for their higher rate is thankfully at a very low level: That is, by far most males are not pedophiles (5) For exactly the same reason, males homosexuals should not be treated differently from male heterosexuals and that is where I disagree with Ake, in particular in their right to adoption (see the old threads). A relatively higher risk at a very low level is no reason for differential treatment. If it was we could jail all males between 16 and 30, just as a general precaution. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: akenaton Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:30 PM I agree with most of what you write with regard to paedophilia Wolfgang, but when ALL the negative issues related to homosexuality and the under reporting of homosexual paedophile attacks are added in, surely it is unwise to promote the practice as "safe and normal"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: John P Date: 07 Nov 09 - 07:42 PM Little Hawk, can you provide some examples of the Orwellian liberal fascism you describe? Who engages in it? Which people are being swayed by it? Who are the few people who are gathering power into their own hands? What is their agenda? I'd like some names, some links to news stories, any evidence at all. And, most importantly, please explain why it is appropriate for the concept to be introduced into this thread and why you are defending its use here. The lame excuse you've used before about making a general comment about our society won't cut it. If that's your only excuse for defending the use of language intended to demean and marginalize people who have not earned it, then you really should think a bit more before you start typing. And if you think you're not defending Akenaton's words, you have failed Conversational Comprehension 101. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Nov 09 - 09:13 PM John, I'm not particularly interested in the ongoing debate here between Akenaton and most of the rest of you about gays...pro, con or otherwise. And I'm not commenting on it, because it holds little interest for me. I just happened to open this thread after a very loooong time of ignoring it, and I noticed a couple of comments people made about something that does interest me....namely what Akenaton was referring to as "fascism dressed as liberalism", as he said in his last post. I find that subject very interesting...the way it manifests in society and in politics, and I thought I'd give my views on it. Period. That's all there is to it. A spectacular example of it is how Tony Blair posed as a feelgood "liberal" politician....fooled the public totally...got himself elected...and then utterly betrayed his own constituency when he took the UK to war in Iraq. Shocking behaviour really, but Blair was in the position to do it because he acted "liberal", looked "liberal", and sounded "liberal". It's only after these bastards get into office that you discover what they're really up to. Another fascinating example...only the other way around... is how Ronald Reagan managed to convince a whole nation back in the 80's that he was a classic died-in-the-wool "conservative" by looking "conservative", acting "conservative" and sounding "conservative"....but he then put into effect financial policies that were anything BUT conservative!!! He freed up credit in the most astoundingly irresponsible fashion ever seen up to that time and created a vast bubble of fiat money creation and vastly increased govdernment spending that led directly to the ruination of the North American economy (but not right away...it took awhile). In so doing, he violated every principle of what is supposed to be classic fiscal conservatism. The so-called "conservatives" and the so-called "liberals" are not what they appear to be. You find that out after they are elected. Bush also greatly increaed government spending. That's what I'm interested in talking about. I couldn't care less if you people fight over gay rights here and insult each other about it for the next 10 years. It's a distraction from far more vital matters. Another example of Orwellian fascism as practiced in politics and the media nowadays is this: anyone who strongly criticizes Israeli policy in the Middle East and who is not themself Jewish gets accused openly or by implication for being supposedly "anti-Semitic". Even Jews who dare to criticize Israeli policy are often subjected to some really strange flak along the lines of...."Oh, they must be consumed with self-hatred...they must be Jews who are ashamed of their own Jewishness"...!!! This is really strange, and it's way out of proportion. There shouldn't be any nation or group of people in this world who have carte blanche to do what the others cannot do (such as build at least 200 secret nukes and not be taken to task for it) (such as invade their neighbours whenever they feel like it and colonize the invaded lands with settlers from the invading population). No one else gets away with that, but Israel does. And if you criticize Israel for getting away with what no one else is allowed to...then "presto!" you're supposedly an anti-semite. NOT someone with a political complaint...no, an anti-semite. In other words, you supposedly hate Jews! Unbelievable is what that is. It's a double standard to the point of madness. I call it fascism posing as something, all right. You decide what that something is or what you want to call it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:32 AM Don: 'GfS, I presume that the "is it all right with you?" question you are asking is, "Do you support NAMBLA's agenda?" No, I do not. But that has nothing to do with the same-sex/gay marriage/domestic partnership issue. And yes, GfS, it IS a trick question in the sense that you are trying to lay a trap. "If NAMBLA is not all right with you, why is same-sex orientation? Hah! Gotcha!" Oh my!, Remember what I said about you and your presumtive assumptions?" If you read the complete dialogue, between CarolC, and myself, That was never even mentioned..though if it had been my agenda to do it, I suppose there are a number of places, where that could have come up. However, that was not the reason for asking her the question, and as you can read, I think we had a very pleasant exchange..and void of any politics, as well! Not only are you wrong, you are starting to sound..umm...perhaps, maybe a little overstressed, or something. Relax, take it easy, and try not to get so upset, at everything that you suspect. Your presumption are starting to beat you up a little, and its coming out, in hostile ways. As Jesus said, in your Bible, 'Be anxious for nothing'(Philippians 4:6)<<< Peace, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:39 AM ...and another P.S...Don, this thread is about "'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia," ..not same sex marriage. Once again, stick to the topic, or pull up the 'Prop 8' thread. If I wanted to yak about that subject, I would have. Get some rest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: michaelr Date: 08 Nov 09 - 02:16 AM LH - great post. Hear hear! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Nov 09 - 02:37 AM michaelr:"LH - great post. Hear hear!" Make that a double! I agree!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:17 AM LH is right indeed; but the point doesn't only apply to Jews & Israel, tho. See my recent post re sub-Saharan Africa & who is responsible for its present state on the England My England thread above the line. & I got fed up with pointing out some incontrovertible truths about Islamofascist activism [7/7 &c] on the Stop The English Defence League thread when some booby who couldn't think of a better argument started throwing words like 'racist' about — all parallelling the situation re Israeli expansion & accusations of antisemitism so cogently rubricated by Little Hawk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:25 AM Well, racism aside, the use of the term "Islamofascist" shows a high degree of ignorance about what fascism actually is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:51 AM akenaton There has been an ongoing investigation here in Ireland and elsewhere into the paedophelia practiced by members of the church on children placed in their care (on a massive scale and stretching back many decades) and the covering up of the rape and sexual and physical abuse that has been proven to have taken place, by leading members of the church. Do you believe that all church officers (or all Catholics, or maybe all Christians, for that matter) are (potential or practicing) paedophiles and should be prohibited from fostering young children - if not, why not? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:02 AM 'Well, racism aside, the use of the term "Islamofascist" shows a high degree of ignorance about what fascism actually is' You may be right there, Carol; not perhaps a well-chosen word & not one I used in the original posts I was ref-ing. But, then, out of interest, what word would YOU use for that admittedly small but unhappily indubitably prominent Islamic movement responsible for 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Dutch cartoon debacle, &c? & do you, personally, regard it as 'racist' even to mention its existence? - in which case I think you will be aligning yourself with the 'antisemitism' criers denounced by Little Hawk, don't you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:08 AM Sorry - of course 'I meant DANISH cartoon'! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: Spleen Cringe Date: 08 Nov 09 - 05:31 AM The problem with this "liberal fascist" concept is that it can be used as a knee jerk response to anyone who doesn't hold with a homophobic (in the case of this thread) agenda. It seems that if we are to take it seriously, we shouldn't express opinions on anything. It's hard not to cry "foul" when someone makes sweeping and hurtful generalisations about a whole sector of society. For me this isn't about liberalism or conservatism (I'm neither), it's about countering some of the hateful things being that are being said about all gay men (c/f Ake's list of their supposed flaws). In that sense my response to such comments is about loyalty to those of my friends who are gay. If that makes me a "liberal fascist" I'd sooner be called that than to crap on my friends, who hold the same abhorrence for paedophilia I do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: akenaton Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:19 AM The trouble with liberal fascism is that it can be used as a way of brainwashing people and in deflecting them from examining all the evidence available on any given subject....not just homosexuality /paedophilia. For several years anyone who criticised our "liberal" govt's immigration policy was branded a racist by so called liberals, even when the policy had been initiated to keep down labour rates and "make the UK competitive in a global economy"....code for cutting wages! Today even govt ministers have been forced to admit their policies were simply wrong, the few small voices have become a mighty chorus "liberalism" and political correctness are in their death throes The much maligned American people have voted for common sense in 31 States, they will never enslave themselves to "liberal" fascism.....British take note! Never ever let them take away your voice, no matter how small or lonely it may sound......only then will we have freedom.....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: GUEST,Lox Date: 08 Nov 09 - 08:00 AM "Never ever let them take away your voice, no matter how small or lonely it may sound......only then will we have freedom.....Ake" Instead, if anyone disagrees with them, call them a liberal fascist and pigeon hole them. This way you don't have to engage in any meaningful or useful way and it also means that you don't have to bother backing up your views, no matter how unsupported or untenable they might be. Ake, when someone shows your arguments up to be nonsense that isn't taking your freedom of speech. For you to spend hours every day writing whatever you like in a public forum and then to complain that somebody is somehow inhibiting your freedom of speech is farcical. Furthermore, it is insulting to people who actually don't have freedom of speech. Your problem is that your arguments are full of holes, incapable of evolving, and easy to tear down. And you don't like it when people draw attention to just how much rubbish you spout. Noone here has ever told you to be quiet or attempted to curtail your freedom of speech in any way. All they have done is expose you for who you really are. And calling people names and playing the victim are a pathetic attempt to paper over te cracks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: Lox Date: 08 Nov 09 - 08:02 AM "Never ever let them take away your voice, no matter how small or lonely it may sound......only then will we have freedom.....Ake" Instead, if anyone disagrees with you, call them a liberal fascist and pigeon hole them. This way you don't have to engage in any meaningful or useful way and it also means that you don't have to bother backing up your views, no matter how unsupported or untenable they might be. Ake, when someone shows your arguments up to be nonsense that isn't taking your freedom of speech. For you to spend hours every day writing whatever you like in a public forum and then to complain that somebody is somehow inhibiting your freedom of speech is farcical. Furthermore, it is insulting to people who actually don't have freedom of speech. Your problem is that your arguments are full of holes, incapable of evolving, and easy to tear down. And you don't like it when people draw attention to just how much rubbish you spout. Noone here has ever told you to be quiet or attempted to curtail your freedom of speech in any way. All they have done is expose you for who you really are. And calling people names and playing the victim are a pathetic attempt to paper over te cracks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: jacqui.c Date: 08 Nov 09 - 09:38 AM The much maligned American people have voted for common sense in 31 States, they will never enslave themselves to "liberal" fascism.....British take note! I now live in Maine and have seen at first hand the tactics being used to ensure that what you call common sense prevailed. A series of untruthful scaremongering adverts on TV, saying outright that this was a threat to marriage (why?), the sacking of a Catholic for standing up for her belief for equal rights for gays and the backing of quite a number of the religious organisations in the state. To date no-one has been able to explain to me why same sex marriage is such a threat to the population as a whole. One advert even had the temerity to state that gays were to be 'tolerated'. Arrogant horseshit! IMO this was passed because too many people put too much faith in what their religious leaders tell them, certainly in this country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 09 - 10:05 AM You may be right there, Carol; not perhaps a well-chosen word & not one I used in the original posts I was ref-ing. But, then, out of interest, what word would YOU use for that admittedly small but unhappily indubitably prominent Islamic movement responsible for 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Dutch cartoon debacle, &c? & do you, personally, regard it as 'racist' even to mention its existence? - in which case I think you will be aligning yourself with the 'antisemitism' criers denounced by Little Hawk, don't you? I call it "Islamism", or Islamic extremism, both of which are accepted terms that don't make the user look ignorant. No, I don't regard the mere mention of it as racist. I do consider the generalization of it to all Muslims as racist, though, which is something I see a lot of people who use the term "Islamofascist" doing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 09 - 10:06 AM People who use the term "liberal fascist" also show a high level of ignorance of what fascism is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: John P Date: 08 Nov 09 - 10:16 AM Little Hawk, The examples you listed have nothing whatsoever to do with Orwell or fascism. I think these examples would make an interesting thread, one about politicians pretending to be something they are not and calling themselves liberal or conservative whey they are acting in ways that are the exact opposite. I agree with what you said about Reagan and Blair. Go start a thread on that topic and I'll cheerfully join in. These examples, however, have nothing to do with the way in which Akenaton is using the words "liberal", "Orwellian", or "fascist". As I said, he is using this language to demean and marginalize people so that he can feel good about not backing up his assertions with facts or logic. It allows him to ignore anyone who doesn't agree with him. I never asked you to weigh in on the gay question. I asked you why you thought it was appropriate to support what Akenaton was saying and the way he is saying it on the question of whether or people who disagree with him are Orwelliam liberal fascists, whatever that means. If you have no interest in the topic at hand, PLEASE go away. If you don't understand that you, within the context of this conversation, supported Akenaton's contention that most of the rest of us are mindless sheep being lead around and told what to say by some nameless wolf, I repeat my suggestion that you have failed to show even the most basic comprehension of what's going on here and your place in it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Nov 09 - 11:17 AM 'No, I don't regard the mere mention of it as racist. I do consider the generalization of it to all Muslims as racist, though, which is something I see a lot of people who use the term "Islamofascist" doing.' Thank you, Carol. I think you will admit that is what I carefully avoided doing. Sorry again I slipped into a bit of inappropriate & misleading nomenclature: though I feel your 'Islamism' is perhaps a bit too general in its implications & sounds a bit like tarring all with same brush in its avoidance of specificity, would you not agree? The addition of 'extremism' seems to me the best of the suggestions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Nov 09 - 11:22 AM Well, I know what Akenaton's referring to when he talks about stuff like that, John, and I think he has a valid concern. (I'm not referring to the gay issue or the paedophilia issue specifically...I'm referring to the issue of a certain form of popular so-called "liberalism" that is used to back various ongoing political iniatiatives and to silence opposition. What it is, it's the erection of various sacred cows by the media....sacred cows which are NOT to be challenged under any circumstances. And that's dangerous. Oh, and then there are various witches to burn too...they are the counterpoint to the sacred cows.) As you say, we could start another thread about it. We probably have already had some threads about it. We could start a thread about what "fascism" really is too. The thing is, though, I have a life to live here, and I don't want to spend an inordinate amount of it yakking endlessly with people on an internet forum. ;-) I can see myself lying on my deathbed thinking back regretfully to how I squandered all those precious hours arguing pointlessly with various other Net addicts instead of actually doing something real. So, how about I just say "bye for now" and let someone else here start those various contentious threads? See you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 09 - 11:36 AM Thank you, Carol. I think you will admit that is what I carefully avoided doing. I can't admit it because I have not read the posts of yours that you are referencing. You asked me what term would be appropriate and I told you. I was not commenting on any of your posts other than to point out the incorrect useage of the term "fascist". Sorry again I slipped into a bit of inappropriate & misleading nomenclature: though I feel your 'Islamism' is perhaps a bit too general in its implications & sounds a bit like tarring all with same brush in its avoidance of specificity, would you not agree? No, I would not agree with this. Islamism is a very specific term and only applies to those Muslims who are engaging in it. The addition of 'extremism' seems to me the best of the suggestions. Muslim or Islamic extremists would be good terms to use, but "Islamist extremists" is redundant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 09 - 11:39 AM We could start a thread about what "fascism" really is too Whatever else it is, if it isn't a vehicle by which corporations control the government, it's not facism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: meself Date: 08 Nov 09 - 12:07 PM "Islamism" is not a term peculiar to CarolC; it is widely used to refer to the philosophy and beliefs that support "Islamic extremism". Whether it is the best term or not, it the "accepted term". |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: akenaton Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:10 PM Jacqui...This is from the New York Times article which I linked to earlier, I think the writing may well be on the wall! "They had far more money and volunteers, and geography was on their side, given that New England has been more accepting of same-sex marriage than any other region of the country. Yet gay rights supporters suffered a crushing loss when voters decided to repeal Maine's new law allowing gay men and lesbians to wed, setting back a movement that had made remarkable progress nationally this year. "Maine, with its libertarian leanings, had seemed to offer an excellent chance of reversing the national trend of voters rejecting marriage equality at the ballot box. Instead, it became the 31st state to block same-sex marriage through a public referendum." |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: Amos Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:12 PM "...It is striking, then, how comparatively rarely children are mentioned as an argument in favor of gay marriage. The issue is framed as a debate over equality and justice, of personal freedom and the relation of church and state, not about what is good for kids. That's partly because, until relatively recently, we didn't know much about the children of same-sex couples. The earliest studies, dating to the 1970s, were based on small samples and could include only families who stepped forward to be counted. But about 20 years ago, the Census Bureau added a category for unwed partners, which included many gay partners, providing more demographic data. Not every gay couple that is married, or aspiring to marry, has children, but an increasing number do: approximately 1 in 5 male same-sex couples and 1 in 3 female same-sex couples are raising children, up from 1 in 20 male couples and 1 in 5 female couples in 1990. This growth, coupled with the passage of time, means there is a large cohort of children who are now old enough to yield solid data. And the portrait emerging tells us something about the effects of gay parenting. It also contains lessons for all parents. "These children do just fine," says Abbie E. Goldberg, an assistant professor in the department of psychology at Clark University, who concedes there are some who will continue to believe that gay parents are a danger to their children, in spite of a growing web of psychological and sociological evidence to the contrary. Her new book, "Lesbian and Gay Parents and Their Children," is an analysis of more than 100 academic studies, most looking at groups of 30 to 150 subjects, and primarily on lesbian mothers, though of late there is a spike in research about gay fathers. In most ways, the accumulated research shows, children of same-sex parents are not markedly different from those of heterosexual parents. They show no increased incidence of psychiatric disorders, are just as popular at school and have just as many friends. While girls raised by lesbian mothers seem slightly more likely to have more sexual partners, and boys slightly more likely to have fewer, than those raised by heterosexual mothers, neither sex is more likely to suffer from gender confusion nor to identify themselves as gay. More enlightening than the similarities, however, are the differences, the most striking of which is that these children tend to be less conventional and more flexible when it comes to gender roles and assumptions than those raised in more traditional families. There are data that show, for instance, that daughters of lesbian mothers are more likely to aspire to professions that are traditionally considered male, like doctors or lawyers — 52 percent in one study said that was their goal, compared with 21 percent of daughters of heterosexual mothers, who are still more likely to say they want to be nurses or teachers when they grow up. (The same study found that 95 percent of boys from both types of families choose the more masculine jobs.) Girls raised by lesbians are also more likely to engage in "roughhousing" and to play with "male-gendered-type toys" than girls raised by straight mothers. And adult children of gay parents appear more likely than the average adult to work in the fields of social justice and to have more gay friends in their social mix. Heterosexual couples might want to pay attention to these results. While the gay-marriage debate is playing out on the public stage, a more private debate is taking place in kitchens and bedrooms over who does what in a heterosexual marriage (takes out the trash, spends more time with the kids, feels free to head out with their friends for a beer). The philosophical underpinnings of both conversations — gay marriage and equality in parenting — are similar, in that both focus on equality for adults (in the case of heterosexuals, mostly wives). But even if parents who seek parity do so for their own sanity and in pursuit of their own ideals, might it not also be better for their children?"... (NYT today) |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: Amos Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:39 PM Further from same: "Same-sex couples, it seems, are less likely to impose certain gender-based expectations on their children, says M. V. Lee Badgett, director of the Center for Public Policy and Administration at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst and author of "When Gay People Get Married: What Happens When Societies Legalize Same-Sex Marriage." Studies of lesbian parents have found that they "are more feminist parents," she says, "more open to girls playing with trucks and boys playing with dolls," with fewer worries about conforming to perceived norms. They are also, by definition, less likely to impose gender-based expectations on themselves. "Same-sex parents tend to be more equal in parenting," Goldberg says, while noting that no generalization can apply to all parents of any sexual orientation. On the whole, though, lesbian mothers (there's little data here on gay dads) tend not to divide chores and responsibilities according to gender-based roles, Goldberg says, "because you have taken gender out the equation. There's much more fluidity than in many heterosexual relationships." So while we arguably spend too much time focusing on children, when it comes to the topic of nontraditional marriage, maybe we should start focusing on them more. One of the few parenting conversations that is not child-centric might be well served to become so. These are questions of rights and equality for adults, yes, but also questions of what is good for the kids." |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:47 PM Thank you, Carol. I think you will admit that is what I carefully avoided doing. I can't admit it because I have not read the posts of yours that you are referencing.··· I meant above on this thread, Carol, where I was careful to describe this movement as "admittedly small but unhappily indubitably prominent" — an explicit statement that, tho highly visible, they are far from in any way typical, surely? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: Don Firth Date: 08 Nov 09 - 02:56 PM "People who use the term 'liberal fascist' also show a high level of ignorance of what fascism is." Carol C. They also show that they haven't a clue as to what liberalism is. #### Ake, before you get too giggly about the Maine election and take this as the wave of the future, on the opposite side of the United States, in Washington State, the popular vote is going the other way. The tally Thursday afternoon saw the vote to approve R-71 widening its lead 52.5 percent to 47.5 percent. That lead now appears insurmountable. The Secretary of State's Office estimates another 500,000 to 600,000 ballots statewide are still outstanding, with about half expected from King County, where the measure is being approved by slightly more than 2 to 1. "Voters across the state listened to the personal stories of lesbian and gay families and the challenges they faced and sent a strong message that we want to see all families treated equally under the law in our state," said Anne Levinson, chairwoman of Washington Families Standing Together, which worked for the measure's approval.Bon appetit! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: jacqui.c Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:09 PM Thanks Amos and Don. Ake - the vote was relatively close 53 to 47 and, for a good part of the night was evens and, for some time, the no vote was in the lead. The turnaround came when the votes from the outlying parts of the state came in - the more faith based communities well away from the cities. These were the people who have little or no contact with gays and who tend to be much more straightlaced, moralistic and judgemental, who listened more to the fearmongering and downright lies that were being pedalled in the adverts. Unfortunately ignorance is not easily eradicated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:10 PM I meant above on this thread, Carol, where I was careful to describe this movement as "admittedly small but unhappily indubitably prominent" — an explicit statement that, tho highly visible, they are far from in any way typical, surely? Yes, I would agree that in your post of 08 Nov 09 - 11:17 AM, you were careful to not generalize the term "Islamofacism" to include all Muslims. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: kendall Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:13 PM 53 to 47 is hardly a mandate. All it shows is that the control freaks, liars and fear mongers knew the right words to use that have nothing to do with marriage; "homosexual" is a hot button word that raises the ire of ignorant throwbacks to the dark ages. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how same sex marriages threaten "traditional" marriage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: akenaton Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:26 PM I have said many times on Mudcat that the American people can save humanity from itself. They have retained the bravery and naivety to challenge the political elite without becoming cowed. We in the UK "know" our position is hopeless, we are in their hands, all politicians are ultimately the same. Conservative, Labour, even the hated BNP....all creatures of the system. We have lost the concept of freedom, the concept that still runs strongly in American hearts. Our overarching cynicism is our Achilles Heel, we must follow America in speaking out against a political hierarchy which believes itself better than those who elect it. The financial meltdown and the failure of the US govt's warmongering foreign policy, appears to have been a wake up call to "Joe Public" who is beginning to question the wisdom of the "liberalist", "rights for all at any cost" mentality. During the Vietnam War, American sailors from the Holy Loch base near where I live were often jeered at by locals, who would shout to them....."Remember the Alamo"!......It looks to me that the long dormant American memory begins to stir!!..........Ake Amos...I'm sorry that America has given you a thumbs down, perhaps we could exchange passports.....:0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:40 PM I have said many times on Mudcat that the American people can save humanity from itself. They have retained the bravery and naivety to challenge the political elite without becoming cowed. We don't need to become "cowed", because we are brainwashed. We still talk a lot about being a "freedom loving nation", but it's incredibly easy to fool us into thinking that the system we have now, which is far from being free (being highly controlled, as it is, by the corporatocracy) is the most free in the world, and that it's only the people who oppose the corporatocracy and its agendas who are trying to take away our freedoms. There is no separation between the policial elite in this country and the corporatocracy. They are the same people under different titles. As long as the corporatocracy together with the political elite are able to continue to brainwash us in this way, we will not even be able to save our own selves (just look how difficult it is for us to even get universal access to health care, something which all other developed nations already have), much less the rest of humanity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:44 PM And all of those people we see making the most noise about taking back our freedoms from the "system" in this country right now, are actually working on behalf of the corporatocracy. Take the teabagging movement, and it's backers. They are the true fascists. They are co-opting a populist movement for the purpose of protecting and furthering the interests of the corporatocracy, just as the fascists in Italy did in the last century. So don't get too optimistic about what we in the US are up to, just based on our rhetoric. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: Lox Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:47 PM My daughters Childminder looks after another little girl who is daughter to a gay couple. One of them is a doctor, the other a lawyer. They are committed to each other and to her and they create a warm loving context for their child to grow up in. Their child is well looked after, loved and happy. She'll probably grow up to be a lwayer or a doctor and seek out a nurturing and mutually enriching relationship when she is older as that is those are the things that define her home environment. There are no judgemental bigots in her home poisoning her mind with hate. Lucky girl. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:49 PM What's George Orwell got to do with this? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: Gervase Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:00 PM Akenaton, even in the annals of this one thread, that's an extraordinary pile of bollocks! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: Don Firth Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:20 PM "The financial meltdown and the failure of the US govt's warmongering foreign policy, appears to have been a wake up call to 'Joe Public' who is beginning to question the wisdom of the 'liberalist', ''\rights for all at any cost' mentality." —Ake. Ake, what planet are you on? The financial meltdown was caused primarily by the diluting and general gutting of a number of regulatory agencies such as the Securities and Exchange Commission, which is supposed to oversee and prevent the kind of wild-ass speculation and balloon-building that led to it. This kind of deregulation has been the goal of the conservatives since FDR, a liberal, first instituted them (lack of regulation also being the primary cause of the Depression of the 1930s). The U. S. government's war mongering foreign policy, especially within the last couple of decades, has also been do to the policies of the conservatives. It was the Bush administration, led by the policies of the Neo-Conservatives, that precipitated the current wars in Iraq (which had nothing to do with the 9/11 terrorist attack) and Afghanistan, supposedly in answer to such attacks. Full-blown military campaigns against loosely-knit terrorist groups have always failed, being like trying to get rid of a plague of wasps by hitting their nest with a baseball bat. One can go through point-by-point and show explicitly why the current state of the country—and much of the world—can be directly laid at the doorstep of the Republicans and their conservative policies, beginning with the Reagan administration and culminating with George W. Bush, the hand-puppet, and the cabal of puppet-masters who ran him. Barack Obama inherited a real mess, and most of the criticism of him has to do with the fact that a couple of decades of racing headlong toward the Dark Ages takes a bit of time to reverse. He has a lot of messes, left by the previous administration, to clean up Those who talk a lot about what a marvelous "City of the Hill" and glorious example the United States is, talk a very pretty sounding game, but the truth is that the U. S. has a lot of house cleaning to do, along with redirecting both our domestic policy and foreign policy before the U. S. can be any kind of example to the rest of the world. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: akenaton Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:21 PM Thank you for the critique Gervase, I shall accept it as a compliment from an expert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: akenaton Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:28 PM Don...You have completely misunderstood my post. I am not a Conservative...I am anti-politics |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: Lox Date: 08 Nov 09 - 05:01 PM "I am anti-politics" Then what have you been discussing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: Don Firth Date: 08 Nov 09 - 05:45 PM Ake, what I am pointing out to you, since you DO make all kinds of comments about politics, both American and British, is that you need to learn what political terms mean, since you apparently can't tell the difference between liberals, conservatives, fascists, libertarians, theocrats, anarchists, and the whole catalog of political positions. "Liberal fascist" is an oxymoron. Which means that it is self-contradictory. My mother always told me not to use words whose meanings I didn't understand. Don Firth P. S. How can anyone be anti-politics? You may not like the political direction a country is heading, or you may think it's doing just fine. That's a political opinion. Being anti-political is like being anti-weather. Whether you know it or not, whether you like it or not, you are immersed in it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Nov 09 - 06:48 PM "Liberal fascist" is an oxymoron. Which means that it is self-contradictory." Not necessarily. The thing is "liberal" is a term than can be, and is, used to refer to just about any political position. For example the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia is an ultranationalist organisation, which is about as far right as you can get. In Australia the Liberal Party are their Conservatives. In America "liberal" appears to be used by fairly extreme rightwingers (who are counted in the States as mainstream), to decribe political positions that elsewhere would be seen as moderate right-of-centre. Going back to earlier historical meanings, it can be argued that, on a left to right political spectrum, the classic liberal position, on the one hand, and fascism, on the other, are more of less at the centre - the rather significant difference being that fascism is way up the top of the authoritarian spectrum and liberalism is down towards the bottom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:11 PM Using your scale, McGrath, what would be to the right of fascism? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: akenaton Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:17 PM The most insideous symptom of a Fascist regime or ideology is its need to suppress dissent, freedom of speech and opposition to its goals. This symptom is glaringly obvious in the current "liberalist" ideology. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia, From: Lox Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:26 PM So whose freedom of speech or dissent is being suppressed here? And what are the alleged goals of the "liberal Fascists" on here (besides promoting homosexuality)? |
