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Language Please
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Subject: Language Please From: oggie Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:06 PM Whilst I realise that certain issues give rise to strong feelings (the Orange thread being one of them) strong language does not necesarily help. My son and his friends use mudcat as a resource and I also reccomend it to schools. These are the future of the music we all love and the use of obscenity does not further our cause in bringing traditional music to the wider audience it deserves. Expecting a barrage in return Steve (oggie) |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: GUEST Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:14 PM Life's an education. It can't be worse than South Park Central |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: GUEST,Maureen Dickson Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:40 PM Perhaps not Oggie, but spare us your sanctimonious dictums. Mudcat is a microcosm of society and the content of the threads reflect this "diversity" of opinions and exchanges. Tune out what you and your children potentially find offensive, but if the host of this forum is loathe to moderate, why should we? Because YOU ask us to? In the meantime, see if these obscenities are offensive to you. Amen. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: bbelle Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:46 PM Steve ... I am respectful of people's children. This site is comprised of 99% adults (give or take a few points) and more often than not, the subject matter discussed is of an adult nature (and I am not referring to sex), as is the humor. The discussions are often heated and passionate and strong language usually ensues. I feel the same way about this as I do television ... if you don't want your children to watch/hear something, turn the channel. The use of language does not turn a child into a psychopath ... and, I dare say, your children have probably heard worse at school. Unless, of course, you homeschool them. My niece was 3 when she used a word that her brother brought home from kindergarten, and that was just the beginning. Believe me when I say that it is not my intention to downplay the way you are raising your children ... more power to you! But, as an adult, talking to other adults, I don't want to think about every word that comes out of my mouth, for fear that a child might be reading the threads. respectfully ... moonchild |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: GUEST,Filbert Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:49 PM I always liked Deuteronomy 23:1 Thank you for that link, Maureen |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Sorcha Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:55 PM I was going to say that, No doubt they have heard worse at school, but Jenny said that. So, use the DT and the search engines without the forum. All of us slip up and drop into "stoopid" mode now and then. And, there is a $5 fine for whining. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: GUEST,Joerg Date: 08 Jul 00 - 10:14 PM My impression of what is the difference between children and adults is the following: Children aren't hurt by strong language, 'adult topics' or even 'obscenitities'. They like them instead, much more than adults want to realize. What children are hurt by is any lack of love - much more than adults are able to realize. You can use strong language, talk about 'adult topics' and even be 'obscene' with or without love. That is difficult to adults because they don't know the difference - most of them have even forgotten what love is. But children still know that. What adults know instead is how to be offended. Children only know how to be frightened, but that's not the same. One of the sayings I invented (dont't blame me of being too modest ;)) is: You can't help getting old but there is more than one trick to avoid getting adult. Love.(Period) Joerg |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Kernow John Date: 08 Jul 00 - 10:35 PM Oggie I asked this question a year or so back and didn't get quite so negative a response. I also asked for help once with instruments playable by disabled children and amongst the helpful replies was one implying that failing everything else the child concerned could always play with themself. When the child read this they couldn't handle it, lost faith in me and it destroyed a relationship that had taken 18 months to build. I don't think one can generalise as to what is and isn't offensive to children anymore than one can generalise between adults. But I expect I'll draw flak as well! Baz |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: bbelle Date: 08 Jul 00 - 10:51 PM Baz ... I take exception to what you just wrote. I'm sorry for your experience, extremely sorry, but I had nothing to do with it. In my opinion, the person who wrote that has no conscience. The bottom line is that this is an adult site. You've been on the forum since the beginning of 1998 and should know that the subject matter is often not for children and neither is the language. The owner of this website is a purveyor of free speech, as are most of its contributors. That is the reason flamers are not censored (except in extreme cases). Knowing that, if I was going to let a child read something on the forum, or any other site that is primarily adults, I would have read it first. moonchild |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Kernow John Date: 08 Jul 00 - 11:03 PM Moonchild I apologise if my reply caused ill feeling, I did not mean to imply that you had anything to do with the incident that occured. Yes I have been on the Cat for a while and like yourself have opinions as to what the place is and isn't. It doesn't stop me from having opinions as to what I might like it to be or from voicing those opinions. My apologies once again if I have offended anyone. Regards Baz |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Bill D Date: 08 Jul 00 - 11:05 PM actually, I wish some of the members DID restrain themselves a bit more, but it ain't gonna happen, so I just shrug and ignore it...mostly. I rather like saving my explicit language for times when I need to make an impact....but others don't.... |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: bbelle Date: 08 Jul 00 - 11:12 PM You know what it is? It's a comfort level. When the mudcat first started, NO ONE used baaaaad language. Then, as we got to know each other online, people became more comfortable with expressing themselves, however it is they express themself. Then, some of us started to meet inperson inreallife, and we became really, really comfortable with expressing outselves. Methinks it's a natural progression. Oh, not the polite to colorful language, but the degree of comfortableness. moonchild |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: SINSULL Date: 08 Jul 00 - 11:19 PM BAZ,
I looked up the post you mentioned and in fairness to Mudcat I have to point out that "Spaceghost", the moron who made the remark, has never posted since. It was a cruel, stupid remark from a cruel, stupid person. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: SINSULL Date: 08 Jul 00 - 11:22 PM My post crossed in the mail with Moonchild's. Sorry for the repetition. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: bob jr Date: 09 Jul 00 - 12:03 AM the language and some of the topics here can be kinda racy and at least suggestive if you were a teacher of some kind baz you and not your students should be checking the replies you recieve to not do so was irresponsible and to blame that on anyone but yourself is an attempt to shift blame ....you throw something into the wind (especially when there are these things called "guests") and you never know what you are gonna get you should have known better and shame on you for suggesting that its anothers fault but yer own!!! |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Sorcha Date: 09 Jul 00 - 12:10 AM Language? Which language? See Skarpi for Icelandic. It's Greek to me. I am just tired of all this stuff, a la Orange, and language, and am going to bed. Maybe I'll just go back to the lake. It was more fun catching up on what I missed than being here. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: katlaughing Date: 09 Jul 00 - 12:46 AM This seems relevant here, too:
Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics WARNING: Life may contain things that are offensive. Life may contain sexual situations, racism, hate, bad language, rude behavior, fascism, censorship, tragedy, and politics. If you are offended by anything in life, we recommend a unique and personal defense. One shall not be provided for you by any religion, government, organization or other entity external to you or your immediate family. Because that would be wrong. Folk is Life with a better melody. The warning is inherent. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: GUEST Date: 09 Jul 00 - 01:24 AM Tough shit, Oggie. You're outvoted |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: zonahobo Date: 09 Jul 00 - 02:24 AM Outvoted Oggie? I don't think so. Outshouted maybe. I think too much or the mudcat community to imagine that your expressed preference for less vulgarity in postings is really a minority opinion. I only find it offensive and diminishing to the poster when it is used in attempt to ridicule or humiliate someone. Then it is just hateful, aggressive and offensive. As far as children being exposed to worse language on the playground or from the entertainment industry I'm reminded of the old truism that two wrongs don't make a right. As a kind of frustration release valve for some, if it truly helped the poster than at least it was good for them. My advice Oggie is to teach your children to stick to the music threads (unlike this one) and you'll find that it generally pretty good sailing. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: The Shambles Date: 09 Jul 00 - 03:53 AM The fact that certain may Mudcatter's have developed bad habits does mean that newer poster must adopt them or approve of them.
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 09 Jul 00 - 06:51 AM I agree with Shambles, and Zonahobo, that Oggie makes a valid point. I personally don't care one way or the other. I don't seem to see any of this language being referred to. BTW, Though I don't care if other people use such language online, I hope to never use it. If I do use questionable language, you ALL have my permission to slap me up the side of the head! No kidding there! Zonahobo may have it right, that it only appears in the non-musical threads. Mudcat Café is a resource which should be available for all ages. Even though in some of the lyrics we probably have questionable language I like to think of Mudcat patrons as thoughtful, reasoned people, and don't necessarily fly off the handle. We even have the links for Kids on the Mudcat front page. I know I've made this suggestion before. Split the Forum into TWO. One for message of Musical content, and one for NOT-Music. If Zonahobo is correct, and I am thinking it's probably realistic, then Oggie's objection is looked after. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Jul 00 - 07:22 AM oggie wasn't asking for any kind of censorship of the Mudcat, so far as I could see. He or she was suggesting that as individuals we should think before we mouth off, and what is wrong with that? Isn't that what we all try to do in our daily lives? Why should that be a reason to attack him or her?
And that term "Adult" - God, the way it gets distorted and misused on the net. People of all ages come here and are welcome here. That doesn't mean we should be frightened to say things we feel should be said in the language that seems right. But we don't have to jump down the throat of someone making a polite suggestion.
The best insults are studied and lurid and forcible and don't include taboo words at all. Those should be preserved for recreational purposes, such as putting a bit of rhythm in a sentence, or when you've banged your finger with a hammer. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: kendall Date: 09 Jul 00 - 07:59 AM Joerg I'm impressed. You are so right. Down in Mass. there is a guy named Henry who creates great sayings. One of his best is: The Devil Loves an Unwanted Child. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: kendall Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:01 AM And there is a much older saying: Profanity is the effort of a feeble mind to express itself. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Sailor Dan Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:26 AM Kendall, I agree with your last remark, My trouble is that when MY Irish goes up, MY brain becomes feebler in thought. Such as in the orange thread. I can respect the thoughts against cursing and swearing and explicit verbage used in Mudcat, but If any parent is under the delusion that their children, from preschool on is unaware of this type of language, then I would suggest that they get their (parents) heads out of the ground and look around. I have a 5 year old great-grandaughter in pre-school who came home & floored us all when she and wanted to practice french kissing. Now where in the blazes did that come from. And what else are they finding out in the schools that we are unaware of. Wake up parents and look around. Innocence as we think it should be just aint no more. Sailor Dan |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Callie Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:39 AM As Chicky's six year old says when he hears someone utter an expletive: "Isn't there a better word you can use?" |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: kendall Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:49 AM children associate with other children. They bring home lice, chicken pox, measles and coarse language. If all parents would be better parents, it wouldn't happen. But, it does. Live with it. My old friend, Marshall Dodge, once said that the foundation of the dirty joke was nothing more than a basic disrespect for women. IMO the constant use of dirty language demonstrates a basic disrespect for EVERYONE, including the speaker.When I was growing up, I never heard such talk until I went into the service at the age of 19. Those were kinder gentler days alright.These days, the younger generation (under 30) spouting obscenities in public to gain attention remind me of someone trying to drive a car by blowing the horn. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Naemanson Date: 09 Jul 00 - 12:33 PM You guys are touching on a sore subject with me and that is the limited vocabulary people use these days to express themselves. My father used to talk of his father's friends who, he said, could swear for half an hour without ever repeating themselves. Kendall is from downeast and I grew up in The County (Aroostook County, Maine, to those from away). In those regions problems are accepted as a regular part of a person's daily life to be dealt with as expeditiously as possible. There is very little energy wasted on verbal expression. But my father grew up in Connecticut among a number of immigrants and heard many different forms of expression. My point is, if you have to use strong language please use some imagination! There is almost no variety in the regular four letter words today and therefore they have little shock value. Anyone can call a stalled car a f*****g piece of s**t. But wouldn't it be classier to call it a vile, putrid, lop sided, fetid, sheep-shagging moldwarp? Or maybe slam the phone down and call the telemarketer a bilious, squid-sucking, mammering, canker-ridden, fartlicker? If anyone is interested in expanding their vocabulary like this just drop me a line. I have something that will help them. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Bill D Date: 09 Jul 00 - 12:48 PM as my Daddy used to say, to the consternation of my Mother "Gotdandruffandsomeofititches" |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Kernow John Date: 09 Jul 00 - 04:00 PM Bob jr No I am not a teacher as such. I was not aware that I was blaming anyone. I was using he incident to illustrate a point on generalising with children. The child concerned was not in my care at the time she logged in to the Mudcat. Had the circumstances been as you describe them I would have had no problem in blaming myself and would not need you to point out my failings. I had no means with which to prevent the child from reading the post and given that, are you saying that I should never have asked advice from people on Mudcat for fear of the replies I might receive? I am sorry but I refuse to accept that the Mudcat has become that sort of place! Baz |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: GUEST,Grey Wolf Date: 09 Jul 00 - 04:07 PM Mudcat is the friendliest fucking place I have ever visited on the fucking internet. The fucking people here are salt of the fucking earth and would give you the shirts off their fucking backs 5 minutes after meeting you. Their occasional vulgarity is always exceeded by their sincerity, and it is for that reason that I continue to partake of this fine fucking establishment. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Branwen23 Date: 09 Jul 00 - 06:17 PM thanks, Grey Wolf, you've just illustrated perfectly for us the mindlessness of such language. -branwen- |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: GUEST,Joerg Date: 09 Jul 00 - 09:44 PM Thank you, kendall. Sailor Dan - is 'french kissing' bad language? Maybe so because it's an euphemism not telling what is meant. What's bad with 'french'? What's bad with 'kissing'? What you are referring to is the concept of 'french kissing' not the name given to it. A concept that IS there but a concept adults seem to want to hide to children. But didn't all of us (NOW I'm generalising) learn new concepts by hearing new words and asking what they meant? You can't keep children from doing so and that's good because adults will never think of everything children have to know in order to teach it to them. Seeing (or hearing) something new and asking "What's that?" is essential for becoming at least as intelligent as we are. kendall, again - I agree that there's a problem with people trying to drive a car by blowing the horn. But you seem to refer to something like 'children'. To my opinion that is an adult specific problem, a problem specific to 'adults' who are not yet 'old' enough (30 is not a limit!). It's not a problem concerning children, but I'm sure one can make (create) problems to children by telling (or trying to show) them that the art of driving a car is simply not blowing the horn. I think, it's not the language that may cause problems. It's what is said with the language in question and our (sorry for generalising again) incompetence to handle it - in general, not only concerning children. But that is one of the BIG problems. Joerg |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: bob jr Date: 09 Jul 00 - 11:03 PM baz okay sorry dont mean to attack you or nothing its just that the internet contains a cross section of everyone from the saintly to the vile and anyone who enters its portals should be prepared for both ,maybe its a shame that kids have to be exposed to idiots but they had better get used to it cause there are an awful lot of them around,some i am sure would include me as i seem to scrap with folks here sometimes unfortunatly, but its the cost of freedom ,the cost of free speech that those who use languauge you are opposed to and those whose opinions you dispise get to raise thier voices. if you dont defend their right to do so you are in fact asking for censorship and that is the start of a slippery slope that we are all better off not going down. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Sailor Dan Date: 09 Jul 00 - 11:41 PM Guest Joerg; There is nothing wrong with the words "French" or "Kissing", and I didnt realize the I would have to say she attempted to stick her tongue in our mouths to practice soul kissing, swapping spit etc etc. I didnt realize that I would have had to be explicitly graphic as what she did so I could avoid a lecture on the english language and what is bad and what isnt bad language. Now if your five year old comes home and gives you a great big kiss on your mouth and then shoves her tongue into your mouth, I would love to see what your damn reaction would be. AS far as explaining what sex, life and the birds and bees are about and how the various parts of the body react and interreact with the opposite sex, that will come when she is ready for it. Or maybe you will sit down and explain the words french and kissing aren't bad. Believe me, after four years in the Navy, 40 years of working a flight line operation with a major airline I could probably turn the air blue for about an hour without repeating myself more then once. I would prefer to tell you that you suffer from a rectalcranial inversion rather then tell you your head is stuck up your ass and shit brown is all you can see. Sailor Dan |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Lepus Rex Date: 10 Jul 00 - 12:02 AM I dunno... It's pretty hard to offend me. Has to be something like those anti-Catholic and anti-Polish threads going around at the moment to do it. "Strong language" is just a part of language. Old words with old histories, which, in my opinion, should be preserved and cherished. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: GUEST,Joerg Date: 10 Jul 00 - 05:08 AM Sailor Dan - sorry for having misunderstood you - I'm indeed wondering myself what my damn reaction would be in such a case. Please do not tell me that I have a rectalcranial inversion. Although I do know latin I prefer the second expression because I can understand it much faster. Joerg |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: GUEST,andy mööer Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:24 AM Everyone has a valid point ,I can even see what grey wolf was attempting to express, but the cows have come home. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:30 AM Talk about censorship doesn't seem relevant.So far as I've seen, noone here has suggested introducing bans or whatever.
In fact the only people I've seen on this thread who have come close to that have been those who've implied that oggie and anyone who thinks the samem way has no right to ask people to think about moderating their language. That seems an odd kind of committment to free speech to me.
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Bagpuss Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:15 AM "Obscenity is the last refuge of the inarticulate motherfucker" ~ Mr Cranky ;-) Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Midchuck Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:43 AM This thread is a perfect example of people on two sides of an issue, each side making a valid point, but neither side really listening to the other, and proceeding to refute the invalid point that they think the other is making. One side says "Constant repeating of a few standard dirty words in lieu of any creativity in expressing yourself is low class, boring, and sets a bad example for the kids who might be reading the posts." The other side says "But Mudcat should be an open forum, and any attempt to censor it would ruin it." Both of the above statements are true, in my own personal opinion. But the propositions are not mutually exclusive. So could we decide which proposition we're actually debating? Peter. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: GUEST,skarpi at work. Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:48 AM Hallo all, I just saw this thread and I started to wonder about this thought. Have you (all) ever think why we use bad words,why do we have to say something about someone that have othe faith than we have?. I think I have never used a bad word on this forum, If I have please let me know. We have to write carfully on the threads we are using, knowing that small human being coult be watch the forum. Respect is what we have to have to to eachother " right " ans Sorcha Icelandic It may look like a Creeck for you at the moment but I can teach you like I teach Kat, well shake rattle and the earth is shaking All the beeest from me ,Skarpi Iceland. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Bagpuss Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:55 AM In any argument there are 2 sides, and a third group just hanging around for the opportunity to make smart alec comments or jokes.... Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: robroy Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:09 AM At the Poet's Breakfast at our local festival we have from time to time, in fact every time, poems or anecdotes which include swear words. We always state that if the children present have heard the words before it's too late if they haven't then they probably won't understand them anyway. Did you ever hear of the old dear who said to a police constable, "Officer that man is whistling a dirty song" |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Mbo Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:40 AM Words---huh! I don't use obscenities, and though I was raised in a household that uses swearing quite often, I never picked it up. And yes it is easier for me to say something is a stupid piece of garbage than shooting off my mouth. But when mad...well, forget words. I go back to a more basic, primal urge. I growl and snarl and roar. It comes naturally to me...it's really just a variation of ancient mouth music, isn't it, after all? And it doesn't offend anyone, and is so much more fun to to in public! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Midchuck Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:56 AM "Did you ever hear of the old dear who said to a police constable, 'Officer that man is whistling a dirty song'" You may think that's a joke, but my mother is offended if someone plays "Redwing," even as an instrumental on the fiddle or whatever - and it's a standard in both the New England and the Western Swing fiddle repetoires - because she's only familiar with it through my late father's singing of it - the words he learned either in his college fraternity or the service. Peter. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Bagpuss Date: 10 Jul 00 - 10:37 AM Of course there are cultural and regional differences in swearing too. Where I'm from, people use the word "bugger" all the time, as in "ye daft bugger" and "bugger off". The use is completely disscoiated from the original meaning - indeed there are some people using it who don't even know what it means!! Also, it tends to be used in a friendly or teasing way. However, when I went to uni and met people from different parts of the country who didn't see the word in quite the same way, and were quite shocked. I soon learned to educate them, or not use it. Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Bill D Date: 10 Jul 00 - 01:09 PM I was about 35 before I knew there WERE clean words to Redwing.... probably everyone knows the story of Dr. Samuel Johnson, early dictionary compiler.....some ladies came calling on him with a complaint..."Dr. Johnson, there are crude words in your dictionary"......"Madame, you have been looking for them!" |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: The Shambles Date: 10 Jul 00 - 05:21 PM When you are typing, and in my case especially so, you have some time to consider exactly what you are wanting to say and which words are the best to use.
When I read in post that someone has taken the time and the conscious effort involved, to choose, use and spell correctly certain words, I probably feel more affected than if I had heard them spoken. |
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Subject: RE: Language Please From: Bert Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:03 PM I agree with Moonbaby, we're mostly 'grownups' here. Nevertheless there was really no need for anyone to jumpall over poor old oggie. A similar request was made a year or so ago and a few of us are voluntarily better behaved for having heeded it. A couple of other thoughts... Many songs and lyrics have been lost because early collectors prudishly avoided or Bowdlerized them. One of Mudcat's primary concerns is for the preservation of folk singing 'As it is'. And as Max has stated - Life may contain things that are offensive. Also, judging by the number of submissions of material that we have received for 'Mudcat for Kids', it appears that most Mudcatters are not greatly concerned about kids. Bert. |
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