Alphabetical order and names

Subject: Alphabetical order and names
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 07:11 PM

How important do you think alphabetical order is when choosing a name for a child?

I suspect that the young Zinedine Zidane for example spent a lot of his early school life waiting for his name to be called. Would this have been a problem for him? Perhaps that was what he was being taunted about when he head-butted that Italian player and was sent off in the World Cup Final?

Should you consider a name like Adolf Aardvaak for your child to ensure that your daughter is always called first on alphabetical lists?

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: bobad
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 07:17 PM

"And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'."

B.Dylan

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 09:23 PM

dear shambles

get a life....really.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:00 PM

Adolf won't do...use "Aaron".

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:18 PM

The answer is obvious. Begin to alphabetize by the third letter in the name on odd-numbered days that come in months that have an R in them. In the months that have no R, revert to random choice, but only on even-numbered days that start with a beautiful sunrise. On the other days, the ones evenly divisible by a prime number between 2 and 4, consult the leaves in the bottom of tea cups in a neighbour's cottage where lilacs bloom.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:38 PM

Alphabetical lists and rolls are usually last-name-first, so whether a child is named Aaron or Zachary won't make much difference if his last name is Zuckerman. One's place in the teacher's rollbook is, in a sense, hereditary.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:40 PM

Shambles, there may be something to the fact that a person whose first or last name starts with a "Z" would get tired of being called last. Or maybe having to deal with being called last in roll call and graduation, and other occassions when lists of names are called, teaches patience.

I went to an elementary school graduation last year, and this boy whose last name was Young was always the last one whose name was called out for awards for grades, perfect attendance, and his graduation certificate. At one point, after calling out this boy's name, the teacher hosting the program said something like "And the first shall be last". My thought was why doesn't the host act on what he said?

Imo, persons with end of alphabet names should sometimes be called on first. That would be fairer than those with beginning alphabet names being first.

And-though this is a digression-I like my name Azizi since it contains both the first and last letter.

Actually, one reason why I like it is because I was told that the letter "z" is a power letter. {And since many people mispell my name by adding more "z", they are giving me more energy}.

Maybe one way to deal with the possible negative repercussions of folks {young and not so young} whose names begin with an end of alphabet letter, is to promote the belief that these letters are more powerful than the beginning letters.

But, no. Given the way the world is, soon you'd have discrimination against folks with beginning letter names instead of the discrimination against end letter names that we have now.

Alternating how names are called out would be better than staying with the fixed system we have now.

{a fixed system that is-after all-quite broken and in need of serious repair}.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:43 PM

Let me correct what I wrote:

Imo, persons with end of alphabet names should sometimes be called on first. That would be fairer than those with beginning alphabet names being first all of the time.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: bobad
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:47 PM

I was always called out first in school as my last name begins with the letters Ad - didn't do a damn thing for me as far as I can tell.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:56 PM

Since we're talking about school practices, how about this one:

When kids "line up" to go out of the classroom, they usually do so by order of height with the shortest kids first and the tallest kids last.

Why not change that up sometimes too? I think that either the smallest kids could have a complex about always been the first in line, or the tallest kid could have a complex about always being the last one in line.

Imo, my underlining {over-arching} belief is that we {adults} have to be sensitive to how everyday practices may negatively impact children. Also, we need to be creative about ways we can help children & youth develop and reinforce their self-esteem because they sure as heck are going to experience some challenges to their self-esteem in life.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: bobad
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:58 PM

I was also short before I grew.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 11:07 PM

I was taught that shorties go first in line so Teacher can see everyone over the successive heads (and be seen by them), for safety and effective communication at any time with each person in the line.

~S~

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 11:26 PM

Even if the custom of always lining children up in school from the shortest to the tallest has a reasonable utilitarian purpose, it still could be problematic for those children who are sensitive about their height.

I was a middle kid-meaning my last name was in the middle of the alphabet, and I was mid-range in height. But you don't have to be the "victim" of a custom to see & sense how that custom can and does {and did} negatively impacts other people.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 11:29 PM

Maybe I was sensitized to how "shorties" or "tallies" felt because I was usually one of the skinniest girls in the class.

I assure you being skinny in junior high school and high school was not the desired body build.

But now...well that's a whole 'nuther story.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:48 AM

I'm a Scout Leader and, if I'm trying to choose a couple of kids from a large group, I often take them in birthday order starting from today.

DC

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 05:23 AM

I'm not convinced first is always the best position to be. I can think of plenty of occasions where I've been glad of seeing others do something before it comes round to my turn.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 06:13 AM

The best solution is to alternate. Starting from the end of the alphabet rather than always at the beginning is a simple start.

In this computer age - it is possible to sort a list any way you wish. Perhaps this should be done more - especially in schools?

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 09:58 AM

One teacher I had would write all our names on bits of card at the beginning of term. Behind his desk, on the shelf were two pots. He put the cards in one pot and drew them out at random for jobs etc. The 'used' name went into the other pot until he ran out of names. Then he'd start again. Made a much fairer way of doing things... not unlike my Secret Santa method.

Same teacher single handedly provided a tobacco tin for every child in his class to put their wax crayons in for about 14 years.... the scent of Old Holborn tobacco mixed with wax crayons makes me want to sit on the floor and read 'Stig of the Dump'.

LTS

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 10:39 AM

This is a really silly premise to start a thread from. If a child is sensitive enough to be affected by where their name is in the alphabet, they're also going to be affected by their hair colour, height, and plenty of other things that nobody can change. Also, many places use surnames, rather than forenames, so the one you have a choice over doesn't make much diffrence.

I am normally loathe to agree with a nameless guest on anything, but really on this one, Shambles, get a life....

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 10:54 AM

Since people usually can't choose the last name which is mostly chosen for alphabetical order it is completely pointless to discuss this choice.

Actually, having a last name with the first letter from the start of the alphabet has a statistically significant advantage on later success. This advantage, though statistically significant with a large number of data is so small in statistical power that its influence can be disregarded.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 01:58 PM

I mentioned this to my grown-up son, and he immediately said "It'd mean you could sneak into class late and still be OK". Very sensible.

I suppose it could give rise to a tendency to avoid rushing things, and to appreciate how much time there was to do stuff even when there wasn't much time to spare - and that might be pretty handy in a footballer.

I'm sure if anyone had had a go at Zizou for this at school he'd have been well up to dealing with it most effectively.

If you're worried about kids getting a rough start because they have the wrong names, I think alphabetic order is the least of their worriesin this respect. Some names parents give to their kids are positively sadistic. (Especially popstars and the like.)

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 02:16 PM

I think rahter than continuing our present society's over-emphasis on victoim-mentality policy-making, I would hope to see teachers and other responsible adults sensitive to indivudal students' reactions to perceived policies. One Little Johhnie might feel victiminzed where another one feels, instead, a sense of being part of a cohesive whole, despite "suffering" the same "inequitable" treatment. Kids are kids-- they need people to SEE them as individuals (sometimes hurting inf=dividuals), not as identical, predictable, powerless victims.

They tried to legislate something else once and it didn't work either-- the Berlin Wall. Everytime they tried to "improve" its function in the society they desired to form, the effort backfired in more deaths until finally enough people gave up on the Wall as a "good idea" and down it came.

Sometimes, "fairness" policies aren't the highest and best thinking we, as human beings, can come up with, either. At best, such policies can only correct injustices in the short-term, while enacting a hidden cost that has to be paid by all involved when the policies extend and reinforce stereotypes.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 02:33 PM

If a child is sensitive enough to be affected by where their name is in the alphabet, they're also going to be affected by their hair colour, height, and plenty of other things that nobody can change.

But you can change and vary the order in which children are listed and if there is no good reason to stick rigidly to alphabetical order - perhaps we shouldn't.

Then - no one will be adversely affected - no matter how statistically small Wolfgang judges the number of those individuals who are disadvantaged may be. If you are one of these - it does matter.

And if it can now so easily be avoided - perhaps it should be?

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:44 PM

Wolfgang judges (Shambles)

Complete nonsense. I report a result and do not judge. Have you any idea what the concept of statistical power means? No, that's what I thought. So why do you talk about something of which you have not the slightest knowledge? And since these data cannot be gathered in an experiment but only in a quasi-experiment there is no way you could tell whether what you advise would have any effect on the outcome. It even could have the adverse effect. You're way out of your area of knowledge.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:11 PM

You are only saying that because your name begins with a W.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: weerover
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:56 PM

If you want to be called first change your surname to "1", as numbers come before letters in most "alphabetised" lists.

wr.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 05:16 PM

sorry but ...

... Go Wolfgang!

Though the register thingy would explain why Zidane had so much more time to practice

I mean after all, he was brought up in a ghetto where class sizes were no doubt enormous and the teachers probably couldn't read, so by the time his name was called it would have been time for recess anyway

hence he did nothing but keepy uppies all his life when he should have been studying.

not to mention that learning in that environment must have been like banging his head against a brick wall....

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 09:13 PM

I hope someone's keeping score, this may be the dumbest thread topic yet.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 10:11 AM

I think many here are missing the point.

Roger, I feel that you may have a point here, but you have perhaps chosen the wrong place for airing it.

This is obviously a matter best discussed with those who have the power to make the necessary changes.

I would suggest that your previous experience in these matters would render you uniquely capable of presenting the case for change to the government.

Ignore all this ill informed, adverse comment, and initiate a campaign for the rights of the alphabetically challenged. It shouldn't take more than about...eight years.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 11:29 AM

Shame some people haven't got something real to worry about. Try the genocide in Darfur, global warming, illegal wars in Afghanistan and Iraq - and forget all this horseshit about alphabetican lists and imaginary hurt feelings. Kids NEED to learn to accept that they might have to stand in line and wait their turn occasionally, that they can't have everything their own way, and that rules are set by those in authority over them - the inability or unwillingness to get their heads around that little truth is one of the main reasons why we live in a 'ME, ME, ME!' society nowadays, where selfishness and the 'fuck you, me first' attitude are becoming the standard.

For god's sake, people, get a life and worry about something that matters.

JMHO.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 11:31 AM

And that should have been 'alphabetical' of course. :-)

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 11:50 AM

Thank you for sparing the time away from your worthy causes in other threads, to (eventually) make your contribution to this one.

Perhaps the very best judgememnt posters can make of a thread's subject that we judge not to be worth our attention - is to ignore it?

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 03:38 PM

I assume that was for me? Sarcasm is still the lowest form of wit, dear Shambles, and doesn't become you. :-)

And, of course, by posting to this thread I hope I've demonstrated that it is worthy of my attention - just that I don't agree with the general concensus that, apparently, the position of one's initials in the alphabet should the cause of some kind of severe psychological damage at worst, or twisted nether-garments at best! LOL!

Ten-Four.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 03:44 PM

Another of my 2 cents....

The best that can come of this "victimized" mode of thinking is for people to realize that we ALL hurt, over something, and we can ALL stand to be a tad more compassionate. YOU were hurt like THIS and YOU were hurt like THAT.

It's not a competition-- who gets hurt more or less or more unfairly. It's just that being a human bean carries some pain with it. Thus, we have commonalities there that we too-often turn into divisions.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 05:42 PM

Offhand, the ZYX order superficially appeals to me, but it doesn't really make any difference to ME: My last name, "Oesterreich", is always going to be somewhere in the middle with either of those orders.

As to the height order, that reminds me of basic training in the army. The four platoons in our company were organized by height. First platoon had all the basketball giants, grading down through Second and Third Platoon to MY platoon, the Fourth Platoon, which had all the shorties.

For my sins, I was what was called the "platoon guide" of this aggregation of relative midgets. That meant mainly that when the platoon marched (usually in column of twos) I was in front, with the guy who carried the triangular flag, the guidon. Now that just might sound like a privileged position, but not so. As "guide" I was tasked to set the pace for the platoon following me.

But remember, the First Platoon, the stork-legs, were really setting the pace, way up in front. I had to push to try to keep the midget Fourth Platoon in some reasonable range of the Third, who tried to keep up with the Second, who chased the First. Many's the time I swore at myself for having accepted the "honor" of being platoon guide. No privileges, no authority, and a number of thankless duties. And only because I was the only one in the platoon who'd been to college.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 06:27 PM

I assume that was for me? Sarcasm is still the lowest form of wit, dear Shambles, and doesn't become you. :-)

I am sorry for that. But posters are now encourged to feel that expressing personal judgements about the worth of threads, posts and of posters when this will change nothing but will only ensure that others will respond in kind. It sets an example of posting that other may follow, does not appear very friendly and may inhibit some from posting.

All that is required is for us to respond with our contributions to the discussion in a thread or not to.

I agree this may not be the most pressing issue facing us - my daughter is just thinking of names for our first grandchild and it was just a consideration.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 08:03 PM

ZYX - I remember reading on a thread here about some place in the States where when they think someone isn't fit to drive they ask them to recite the alphabet backwards.   And I doubt if there's one person in 10,000 wh could do that on the best of days.

I'd far sooner be last then first in a register, as a kid, and now for that matter. I'd see myself as the happy ending.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 01:50 PM

OK Shambles, point taken and accepted - hope you take and accept mine also.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 01:52 PM

Of course, I may post to judge the quality of an idea, that's what discussion means. Shambles, you may think the best way to discuss is not to respond or only to respond nonsense but I don't think so. This particualr idea is in my eyes at best useless.
(1) The effect size is much to small to make any real difference under all the other much larger factors acting.
(2) Whether this factor has a causal influence or is only confounded with a causal factor is not know at all.
(3) Paying attention to this itsy bitsy effect by changing the order might even have an adverse effect for some pupils who never would have thought even once about alphabetical order.
(4) The problem of the name is not effectively addressed by reversing the order in 50 % of all cases. Always being either the first or the last also could be thought to influence the kids soul.

It is a non-issue if there ever was one.

An advice to stupid rule-bound bastards (a silly dictionary translation of the much nicer German 'Korinthenkacker' which verbatim means a person crapping currants) how to proceed if you are really bound to eliminate the screaming injustice:

The reverse order idea confines the pupil (or other persons) to just two possible places which is equally wrong. One has to have each time a new randomly determined order. No, wait. Not knowing when you will be called can stress you, so each class has to have a visual display of the new random order so that each pupil can knowingly control her stress reaction.

But even that dsoes not solve the problems encountered with names. My family name, for instance, is used about once per school hour in a normal German teachers talk, other than for instance Schicklgruber. I can't tell you how I have suffered in my school time that so often when dozing a bit during the teacher's talk hwearing my name made me startle though I was not meant.

We all should have the right to chose a family name we like and to change it as often as we like. So if you want to be called first you could call yourself aardvark.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 01:56 PM

A little aardvark never hurt anybody...

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 03:05 PM

McGrath of H:

At some time in dim prehistory, for reasons unknown to me at this time, I memorized the alphabet in reverse, and can recite it in about 10 seconds.

And much good may it do me.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 03:24 PM

And here I always thought that the smaller kids went in front not only so the teacher could see their faces, but also so they could see where they were going....

As for alphabetical order, there are bigger things in this world to worry about, and if all little Zoe Zigler is hurt by is the fact that her name gets called last then I would say she's living a pretty cushy life.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 03:27 PM

Of course, I may post to judge the quality of an idea, that's what discussion means. Shambles, you may think the best way to discuss is not to respond or only to respond nonsense but I don't think so. This particualr idea is in my eyes at best useless.

Discuss the subject by all means Wolfgang - this is a discussion forum.

But a post containing only a judgement of a thread's worth (as useless for example) or a post containing only a judgement of the poster's worth (as useless for example) - is not discussion. You have taken the time and trouble to post only that you judge something or someone to be useless ( for example) - so what? Will any other poster be interested in reading only this judgement?

If you were an important German, like the Pope they might - but are you the Pope?

Online - all posts containing only such judgements do, is to ensure that there will be a response in kind - as such personal judgements tend to be taken personally.

And posting to judge a thread's subject (as useless for example) - but still going on to discuss the subject - is an attempt to have it both ways and will make the judgement of even less interest to any reader.

If you do judge a thread or a poster to be useless - the very best judgement is not to post - but to ignore both it and them. For the thread will then quickly to be seen to die through lack of interest.

You may not then judge the poster's next thread to be so useless.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: GUEST,Becca72
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 03:28 PM

Sorry, the guest above was me...I've lost me cookie!

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 04:40 PM

I judge your post, Wolfgang.

I judge it excellent, and I think you for the new word you taught me! (Crapping currants)

~Susan

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 05:35 PM

But a post containing only a judgement of a thread's worth (as useless for example) or a post containing only a judgement of the poster's worth (as useless for example) - is not discussion. (Shambles)

Shambles, please read what you claim to respond to. "This particular idea is useless" is very different from "you are useless". That people here are judging posters' worth is an idee fixe from you that does not get better by repetition. And the thread has its worth in bringing arguments that one particular idea is useless.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:28 AM

Sorry Wolfgang - your post made me laugh but I am not sure I understand it.

Perhaps it was one of your intentionaly mocking posts - and that it was 'useless' was the whole point you were making?

Perhaps bullet points may help?

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:19 AM

You deliberately avoid any real discussion, Shambles.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:35 AM

I do deliberatly try to avoid posting only personal judgements about the worth of my fellow posters and calling them names.

Subject: RE: Alphabetical order and names
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:49 AM

A slight drift.........its a pity lots of parents don't consider possible -ve effects their childs given names may have on them in later life.

For example, giving thought to how certain combinations of forenames + the surname can give rise to unfortunate acronyms being generated.

Such as 'David Ian Morris' = DIM!

'Mary Anne Davies' = MAD!

etc