BS: Football World Cup 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:24 AM

Talking balls - whatever next?

It is no good - I am haunted by the thought of these Pavlovian trained German footballers, who when out in the street and hearing crowd noise and PA announcements - will immediately start kicking penalties into an imaginary goal.

In the same situation - English and Argentinian players will just go into into floods of tears.

My semi final predictions:

Italy to go through on penalties.
[Due to the crowd going silent, the PA breaking down, the referee having lost his whistle and having to give the signal to start with a flag]

Portugal having only managed to scrape together 8 players who are not suspended and having a further 5 sent off against France - also winning on penalties.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:59 AM

To bring a bit of music to thread. All credit (and blame:-) ) to my mate Rob who gave me this last night -

Where have all the car flags gone?
- Long ball passing
Where have all the car flags gone?
- Long time no goal
Where have all the car flags gone?
- Rags and dusters every one!
When will they ever learn?
- We're crap at penalties!

:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:27 AM

Perhaps some one could come up with a potion for winning penalty shoot outs?

It could be just water but would work on the placebo effect. If you have confidence that something is improving your performance and results - it probably will. I am not sure that the German approach to training for penalty shoot outs does improve their chances - but if they have confidence that it will - it may do.

Conversely - if you think your team will never win on penaties - they probably won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: GUEST,Jock McTavish
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:56 AM

Portugal, Portugal, port-u-gall, Portugal, Portugal,Portugal, etc, you all know the tune , it`s the one that is sung to one of Sousa`s marches, c`mon lets hear it from all of the whingers. Anyone see todays Sun, they are blaming Ronaldo for England`s humilation, remember the Swedish referee who sent Beckham off, he had to move from his home when one of the English rag papers published his home address.
The worlds worst losers once again live up their reputation, grow up you pack of weeping willies.
Over 60 million and not a sporting personality in the country, do you ever win at any sporting event, oh sorry, Darts [sometimes] and marbles.
It is really great fun, what a shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: alanabit
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:22 AM

I was just thinking of starting a thread about Scotland's recent achievements in the World Cup. Just thinking...

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:32 AM

I think you'll find, 'Jock McTavish', that it's the population of the United Kingdom that is 60 million people, which of course includes those of the Scottish persuasion. Bit of a penalty miss, eh?

Well before the World Cup Finals I was suggesting for an England World Cup song 'Leaving on a Jetplane'.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:45 AM

They enjoy playing Curling, but I think we will give them the brush at that.

As for Murray, he was made into curry yesterday.

Tossing the Caber, is a good en. Big hairy men, wearing skirts and sticking this big piece of wood between their legs (falix symbol me thinks) and tossing. Is that where the exprseeion "you big tosser" comes from ?

Spin the bottle is another excellent past time. Did the Scots invent a singaround based on spinning the bottle.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:02 AM

Leave the scottish alone, they gave us Robert Louis Stevenson, Whisky and somewhere to keep all the midges.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:31 PM

On the subject of Wayne Rooney the 20 year old has some record, 44 yellow and 3 red cards,I hope they don`t take into account his disciplinary record or he might finish up in Wandsworth.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:54 PM

I once saw a suggestion that they should have the penalty shoot-out before the game instead of after. That way one would know that a draw during actual play would mean they'd won and the other side would know it'd mean they'd lost. It'd be interesting to see how it'd change the way they approched teh game.

But then again, when England is playing, that's more or less the situation anyway...And any team playing Germany.

I think Italy had better try to win during actual play tonight!

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:37 PM

I think they'll win (clearly), but in the case Germany wins, at least one cannot say as one could last time that the teams Germany had to beat before the final were weak teams. Of the remaining teams Italy is the most difficult to beat for Germany (only Brazil would be harder to beat). That's a queation of styles. Germany could beat France but they couldn't do what the French have done: beat Brazil, even this year's Brazil.

Lineker and Shearer are dead wrong but perhaps they even knew it and only wanted to present a better sounding explanation than mere laziness. The variance of motor performance can be reduced in all sports by practise. Football is no exception to that rule.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:07 PM

Germany to loose on penalties.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:02 PM

Germany midfielder Torsten Frings will miss Tuesday's World Cup semi-final with Italy after being suspended by Fifa.

Frings was involved in the scuffle involving a number of players following Germany's quarter final win over Argentina last Friday.

Argentine duo Maxi Rodriguez and Leandro Cufre were both charged by Fifa for their involvement in the incident.

All German players were initially cleared by Fifa of any wrongdoing, but they have decided to act after Frings was caught on television aiming a blow at Argentina striker Julio Cruz.

Frings heard his case on Monday and the Werder Bremen midfielder pleaded not guilty to the charge.

However, Fifa have found Frings guilty of violent conduct and he will be forced to miss the clash with Italy.

Frings has been handed a two-game ban, but the second match is suspended meaning he would be available for the World Cup final should Germany overcome Italy.

The news is a blow for Germany boss Jurgen Klinsmann as Frings has been instrumental in helping Germany reach the semi-finals.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:29 PM

It didn't go to penalties.

A fine game.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:43 PM

Not only a fine game. Was this the same game as last Saturdays debacle? What a wonderful example of gamesmanship, passing, refereeing and everything! Just so good.

I am off tomorrow to buy one of Asda's half price Italian shirts:-)

Now, who remembers Stanley Accringtons opera from 24 years ago? The Penalty Aria?

"Italia have wonna the worlda cup,
for the books whatta turn up..."

The only other bits I can remember are
"With tackles oh so clinical and fouls oh so cynical"
and
"All apart from Schumaker, and he's a load of cobblers..."

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:17 PM

Bollocks, that's my prediction up the swannee.

Bollocks Ballacks Bollocks!

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:06 PM

Good to see Germany losing well, and apparently being good losers. Some other teams and their supporters ought to try doing it that way as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:04 AM

The German team and their supporters and others (like the Republic of Ireland with fine examples of mature sportsmanship like Roy Keane) who did not even qualify for the finals - do get a lot of practice at losing. The Germans - especially to the Italians. Perhaps that is why their record against them is so bad - perhaps they did not expect to be able to win (except on penalities)?

Perhaps if they spent less time studying and practising for penaltly shoot outs and more time on trying to score goals and win matches - they may not get into so many shootouts, they may have beaten Italy last night and may still be in the competition they have so finely hosted?

Italy were the best team and won a good game, on reflection, rather easily and deserve to be in the final. I only hope that it is France who will face them.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:21 AM

Nothing should obscure the fact that the Germans did very well. They had no outstanding players apart from Ballack - and he did not look to be in top form. They took a group of reasonable players and they played together very well, doing much better than even their own supporters had expected. Germany has been and excellent host for this tournament and their team has got the whole country behind it. They lost to more talented footballers and there is no shame in that. For the Germans the party is over. It was one hell of a party though and it was a very inclusive one, with many people made very welcome from all over the world. The atmosphere has been really terrific.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: GUEST, Ami Guset
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:21 AM

Well boys what a fine game of football and didn`t those Italians look the part in all of their parts, hard luck Germany, but the better team won, was the wood on the posts ,made in Germany?.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:38 AM

But penalties are not as straightforward as some fans think. All the great players have missed in World Cups - Maradonna, Baggio and Platini. I always say the presidents of each of the football assosiations should take them because the responsibilty is so great.
Pele

The shoot out is either a test of team skill or it is a lottery - for it can't be both. It is the view of many participants that it is a lottery in practical terms as skill is affected too much by the pressure placed on individual team members.

But it is not a true 50/50 lottery. And where you have a side that thinks they have more than a 50/50 chance of winning on penalties (and possibly a past record that looks to support this) - the danger is that this team may be happy to play 90 minutes and extra time - with this in mind.

The second problem and possibly the most important one to me is that I like to look back and credit a player with some act of individual brilliance that wins the game - rather than what happens in a shoot out where someone will be blamed for losing it for their team. With some bitter irony - very often this is the player who has played the best in the game but has the bad luck to miss their penalty. All great TV drama I know but perhaps too hard on the indivdual player in a team game. And why then even bother with the game at all - why not just go straight to the penalty shoot out?

The fairest way to settle a drawn game is a replay. But that is not an option for big TV events like the World cup. The suggestion made here of playing the penalties first - will only make it more likely that the side which knows they will go through - will have no incentive to even try to win and will be content just not to lose.

Possibly a true lottery made before the game but which no one will know the outcome until the end of full and extra time - will at least ensure that each side has an equal chance of winning as they do of losing. Possibly a true lottery like this would result in there being less drawn big tournament games at full time?

Until those two fine last minute goals - if we are honest, most of us had already settled down and decided that last night's game was going to be decided on penalties. If the next two games are going to be settled on penalties - perhaps FIFA will seriously examine some alternatives? Hopefully they will anyway.

Perhaps the side who has committed the least fouls being awarded the game? Or possibly some other way of linking foul play with the result of drawn games - so that commiting fouls is discouraged and fair play is rewarded.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:55 AM

A panel of impartial(and anonymous for obvious reasons) judges to decide who should have won?

Multiple statistics - Possesion, shots at goal, foulds etc?

Extra time without the offside rule?

Carry on playing until someone scores?

Anything but the dreaded shootout!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:00 AM

I am going with Wolfgang on this one. Germany have won five out of six penalty shoot outs. England have lost five out of six penalty shoot outs. (By the way, had the games been decided on the balance of play, England's record would be one game worse!) However, Germany practice and simulate the experience in training as closely as they can. There seems to be a very British inhibition about practising for these things - perhaps because the players feel they look foolish.
Where the Shambles is right, is in pointing out that luck will never be eliminated from sport. That is not the point though. The aim of the sportsman is to increase the skill and all round competence so that luck plays a very small role. The Germans got further with a few good players than England did with a squad of gifted ones. It is time for a bit of humility on our part. If this is "luck", its consistent reappearance every two to four years is starting to look a little suspicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Barden of England
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:15 AM

The only way is the 'Golden Goal'. They who score first in extra time wins and if that upsets the networks - up theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:21 AM

It is time for a bit of humility on our part. If this is "luck", its consistent reappearance every two to four years is starting to look a little suspicious.

Why humility?

Both England and Germany (and many others) are now out of the 2006 World Cup. The German team perhaps deserve a little credit for going out (before being beaten 2 - 0 by Italy) at the semi final stage rather than (unbeaten) at the quarter final stage on penalties, like England. But both of them are now out.

Neither side's play exactly set the tournament on fire and Germany had the advantage of playing on home soil - where they had won it before. As far as the England and German teams are concerned the difference is simply that one side performed better than expected and the other did worse than expected.

I suggest that it was just that these expectations were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:32 AM

I prefer Golden Goal to penalties but what happens if there is no goal in the alloted extra time?

The fairest way to settle a drawn game is a replay.

It that always the case? In national competition, allowing for injuries and perhaps general fatigue over a seasion, could it not favour a wealthy club with sufficent resources to pretty well play 2 first teams? Whatever, I'd sooner see the result settled by the 11 (plus subs) players on the day.

Perhaps the side who has committed the least fouls being awarded the game?

How about instant disqualification for a team if one of thier players stomps on an opponent's nuts?

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:55 AM

How about start extra time with 10 players a side, withdrawing a player every 5 minutes, until a goal is scored?

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 07:48 AM

Drawing lots for which players should take the penalties, and in which order, would be another refinement.

And how about blindfolds for the penalty takers?

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 08:06 AM

Blindfolds for the opposing goalie might just work, when England take their penalties.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:35 AM

Some referees already use blindfolds.

But what happened to the Golden Goal? It was introduced and seem to work to some extent so why was it scrapped?

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:07 AM

I was a bit sad the Italians won in 120 minutes since I was hoping the Germans would go out on penalties.

I was a lecturer in sport studies and I set the students the problem of solving drawn games at Championship level like this.

The most imaginative answer was that the penalty shoot-out is taken before the game. Once it got to ninety minutes the team that won would be the winner if the result was a draw. The students believed there would not be many and it would encorurage forward play, though in fairnesss it was not much needed last night!!

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:16 AM

The suggestion made here of playing the penalties first - will only make it more likely that the side which knows they will go through - will have no incentive to even try to win and will be content just not to lose.

I like the idea of taking players off one by one every 5 minutes(starting with the goalkeeper) until a goal is scored - or whoever is left standing dies of exhustion.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:07 PM

I think the following suggestion is not ideal but is better than the present rules. Where if we assume that the first 5 penalties have missed and we go on the sudden death - the team that has managed to keep 11 players will only be allowed as many shots as their opponents can manage. So the side that has players dismissed for foul play is currently favoured by the opponent's extra player being unable to take a penalty.................

How about at the end of Extra Time all players still on the pitch will all have to take a penalty including the keepers?

So that if at the end one team has had a player sent off , one team will have 10 shots and the other 11. In addition players with yellow cards in that specific game will not be allowed a shot.

My reservation to this is still the same. A side that knows in advance they will go through by obtaining a draw - may tend to play for this rather than going all out for the win. It is that we need to find a way to cut out.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:42 PM

Any truth in the rumour that the Portuguese team are being entered in the next Olympic diving contest?

Good on yer France. Realy looking forward to Sundays final now.

Anyone think any action will be taken against Scolari? He should be banned from the line for Saturdays match at least for that display tonight.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:55 PM

be interesting to see if the the Portuguese can be arsed to carry on with the amateur dramatics for third place.....

might be decent game, if they just play football.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:59 PM

Or of course you could just have the goalies taking penalties against each other.
.........
First you complaints because old Sven didn't get visibly excited, and then Scolari gets it for being excited. Maybe people would like to see etiquette classes for managers so they could learn to get just excited enough, but not too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:02 PM

Or of course you could just have the goalies taking penalties against each other.
.........
First you get complaints because old Sven didn't get visibly excited, and then Scolari gets it for being excited. Maybe people would like to see etiquette classes for managers so they could learn to get just excited enough, but not too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:26 PM

There is some consolation from tonight's result in that cheats do not prosper. But as has been suggested, had Portugal played football - they possibly would already be in their first World Cup final.

The booing that accompanied Ronaldo every time he touched the ball - is nothing to what he is soon going to hear from a home crowd. But when he was not diving to the ground - this booing only seemed to make him play better.

The thing with Ronaldo - is like Rooney - he is a young man and liable to do silly things and can be excused for them. But the general play of his team against Holland, England and now France and his wink to his manager seemed to indicate a level of pre-planning to get his team mate into trouble that brings his conduct to a different level.

Big Phil has now lost his first game since losing to Greece. I hope that it is the last game that he manages this Portugal team - who deserve better.   

Italy looked a lot fresher after playing extra time than France did and the end of this 90 minutes. It would suggest that Italy will be the next World Champions.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:35 PM

Cheats don't prosper??

Henry - Puyol? Went to ground clutching his face when it was clear his face had not been touched.

Crouch and dreadlock pulling = goal.

Cole and diving? Managed to get a couple of players booked.

Frankly I believe they are all at it. I just wish they would play football and concentrate on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Brakn
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 07:03 PM

Now I've seen it again.........Was that really a penalty?

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 07:30 PM

It looked to me as if Carvalho's leg was going there whatever happened and Henry (who lets face it cannot see a trailing leg without diving over it) did just that - with a whoop and a holler just to make sure the ref noticed.

But I never have liked Henry since he whinged and moaned after the Champion's League Final complaining that Puyol was fouling him constantly. Fouls that were only noticed by Arsene Whinger and Henry and totally missed by the 24 cameras, 80,000 people and the referee that were also at the game.

Visca Barca and Sheffield United

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Arnie
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 11:08 AM

Let's face it, no-one apart from the Portuguese wanted that team in the final. They are real masters of diving, whingeing and trying to influence the ref. Ronaldo will be persona non grata at Man U and will no doubt disappear off to Spain. Scolari is a real disgrace and I'm glad that 'Big Phil' didn't get the England job in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 07:04 PM

Whereas Peter Crouch holding on to someone's hair to score a goal is legitimate tactics?

Joe Cole's dives are somehow qualitatively different to Ronaldo's, even though they resulted in two bookings for innocent players??

I actually believe they are mostly at some form of cheating or other whenever they can. The Italian dive over the Australian's trailing leg in the last second, a l'Henry. Stop pussyfooting about and give any diver a red card.

Any Italian or French footballer who goes down in the penalty area in the last five minutes (assuming a drawn game Sunday on 85 minutes) - immediate red card.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 04:32 AM

I see Folkdavie agrees with me about Joe Cole, he can dive with the best of them, and Ronaldo will be lucky if he dosen`t receive the poision pen letters that were sent to the Swedish referee after he sent Becham off in the previous World Cup. the booing will only be a secondary measure, much nicer than receiving death threats.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Kweku
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 04:44 AM

I believe footballers are gifted actors.

if I were Rooney I would surely get even with C.Ronaldo when he gets to London.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:04 AM

Did you hear that a boxing promotor from Cheshire has offered a large purse for Rooney and Ronaldo to settle their differences in the ring? Honest! Ity was on the radio this morning. Could be interesting:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:44 AM

Just heard Saddam Hussein has been found guilty, and will be executed by firing squad, he has also been granted leave to choose the firing squad.

He has nominated Gerrard, Lampard and Carragher,












From 12 yards.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:55 AM

Joe Cole's dives are somehow qualitatively different to Ronaldo's, even though they resulted in two bookings for innocent players??

Yes.

We saw in in Ronaldo's constant attempts in all the games he played, to get his fellow players cautioned or sent off - only the worst culprit in a team where the manager actively encouraged this - in a win at all cost mentality. Which I am glad to say - did not work.

Joe Cole's inability to stay on his feet my be encouraged by his current (Portugese) club manager but he was was not representitive of the England team approach in this World Cup.

As he plays for the national side that I support, I am probably more upset with Joe Cole's individual conduct in this respect and am not offering any excuse for this. I hope he will learn from this tournament that cheats do not prosper.

My criticism of Portugal's tactics started long before their game with England. This current England side were not good enough to go any further and did not go out because of Ronaldo's conduct in that game. He should not be made a scapegoat for England's performance in and exit from the tournament - but he must take responsibility for his un-sporting actions - which are not excused by similar actions by other players or instruction from managers.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:00 AM

I was trying to find a joke about some members of the current Scottish team - but I did not know the names of any?

Perhaps it is the Scottish team itself that is the best joke?

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:39 AM

There seems to be a suggestion that a player who has been tripped or pushed ought to stay up, if at all humanly possible, and that if they go down that's cheating. The point is that those actions - pushing an tripping - mess up what the players was trying to do, and that is where the cheating lies.

It's better for a player who has been fouled to go down than to overdo the efforts to stay up like Rooney did, and risk causing serious injury to another player by stomping all over them in the process.

The term "diving" should be restricted to the situation where a player trips themselves up, or decides to fall over, when there has been no illegal contact, and then pretends that they have been fouled. That of course is cheating, as is the case where a player feigns injury to make matters appear more serious than they actually are.