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Today in Ireland's History
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Subject: Lyr Add: WHO DARES TO SAY FORGET THE PAST From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 09:14 AM As it is the anniversary of the murder of four of freedom's champions, Rory, Liam, Dick and Joe, I offer the following recitation I learned in Belfast, some time around 1977. I never learned to spell in any language, so feel free to correct spelling os Gaelige or os Berla. To our English comrades who don't understand, please accept that their are more things in heaven or earth, Horatio, than are dreamed of in your philosophy, and to all those comrades English and of any nation, that do understand, one day that understanding will bring together a mighty working class response to those leaders of industry and their political puppets, who seek to divide us and profit from our being divided by wars, for which we in the working class never derive the benefits. Who dares to say forget the past, to those of Irish birth? Who dares to say cease fighting, for our place upon this earth? Let remembrance be our watchword, and our dead we will never fail. Let their graves to be us as milestones, on that blood-soaked one-way trail. Remember how Owain Rowe fought, Port Lester mill beside. No man can say a coward fell when Hugh O'Donnell died. Remember Ruth and Starsfield and forget, whoever will, That glorious stand in Limerick, at Kilnacaden hill. How Emmitt's gallant handful, in historic Dublin Town, Rode forth to give their challenge, to the forces of the crown. And then for a time, 'twas silent. Was Ireland's struggle done? The answer is in the negative, thundered many a Fenian gun. And then when England thought she'd won, that we at last were meek, Roared forth the glorious challenge of the men of Easter week! Remember how our solders fought the scum of many lands, Fought the scum of Britain's prisons - Britain's "Black and Tans". And then by men we trusted, this land of ours was sold. They sold our friends to enemies, as Judas did, of old. Remember how in Kerry they butchered our lads like swine! God! Think of Ballyseedy, where they tied them to a mine. How Rory and Liam and Dick and Joe, to glut the Imperial beast, Were murdered, while in prison, on our Blessed Lady's feast. How, with overworked revolver as he dashed from that hotel, Roared a rebel's last defiance as Cathal Brugha fell. Hear we not the voice of Connelly, the worker-soldier's friend? Our conquered soul asserts itself, and WE SHALL RISE AGAIN! For Freedom, yes and not to starve, and not for rocks and clay, But for the lives of Ireland's working class, we fight and die today. And what, says Cathal Brugha, if the last man is on the ground, If he is lying, week and helpless, and his enemies ring him round? If he has fired his final bullet, and spent his final shot, And they say, Come into the Empire, he will answer, I WILL NOT! Then back, back to that one-way trail. Ni shiorchan go saorcha is the war cry of the Gael! While out country stands beside us with the blood of martyrs set, Wayside crosses to remind us, WHO DARES TO SAY FORGET? While Emmitt's tomb is uninscribed, until we our rights assert, Until our country takes her place among the nations of the earth. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 09:21 AM YES!YES!YES! Thank you Larry! I LOVE Nationalistic Irish poetry, in fact, I'm setting a good deal of it to music. I know all those great men the poem mentions, and I will never forget them! FAG AN BEALACH!!!!!! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: katlaughing Date: 08 Dec 99 - 11:21 AM Good words and thoughts, but I thought the thread was going to be about what was actually happening there, this week, concerning peace. Had actually thought about starting a thread the other day about it; it seemed so momentous and something to celebrate with caution. kat |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: GeorgeH Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:20 PM Thanks, Kat/Kat, for a welcome sense of perspective; I'll desist from mounting my high horse. And - as so often - I can't help wondering which side of the Atlantic has the pleasure of InObu and Mbo's residence. G. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:32 PM My dear Brother GeorgeH I live on the side of the Atlantic which does not have political censorship laws, though I have lived on the other as well. I realize that those who live behind the curtain of censorship often wonder at the political perspectives of those who do, however, on the day when you can read the Stalker Report, you will understand. In favor of peace and democracy Larry PS On this side we have ecconomic censorship of local political news, so to be a well informed citizen over here takes a bit of work as well, however from your other posts, I think you and I agree on the limits of freedom in the USA - As to why the US? My wife did not like living in Ireland, which had special challenges for women, in the seventies and eighties, though Ireland is changing in that reguard. Life is more than single issues. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:34 PM I live in North Carolina! You know, George, I'm really getting tired of you and your anti-Irish-patriotism. Maybe you think Cromwell should have eradicated the Irish, and had done with us! You think they're "nothing but a bunch of murderers" like Paul Brady says! Irish Nationalistic poetry and music has just as much right to be proclaimed as anyone elses! I don't hear anyone complaining about American & British nationalism! I here more songs ESPECIALLY from England about how they beat up the French (whom I ALSO like) than songs about peace. I'd rather read about Hugh O' Neill & O' Donnell's exploits and I'm sure so would a lot of Irish! MULLACH EIREANN ABU! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:42 PM To be fair to GeorgeH, Mbo, let us not paint him worse than he has been. He did ackowlege the wrongs of Cromwell, to a degree in Ireland, though his perspective is different from a difference in upbringing. Perhapes being Anglo Irish I have a degree more tolerance, though I have lost dear and close friends to Britains shoot to kill policies and other military tactics in Ireland. Let us listen to what George says, and not what we hear in his words. Best to both of you Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:46 PM Everyone talks about peace, but no one wants to remember what it took to achieve it. What about all those who believed in the cause of peace so much, they gave they lives to attain what others might enjoy? NEVER NEVER forget what those men and women with guns, swords, or words did for us. To forget the war and resistance that forged that peace is to invalidate the lives of those who died trying to make our lives better. Americans remember Nathan Hale, English remember Lord Nelson, so why can't the Irish remeber Eoghan Ruadh O' Neill or Wolfe Tone? Let peace reign over the land, and peace reign over the sleep of those we owe our comfortable modern lives to. --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:50 PM PS I dropped a letter two posts back, that should read wonder at the political perspectives of those who DO NOT live in countries with political censorship. Mbo... we have an obligation to help break throgh a wall of lies and censorship and to do so, we have to acknowlege that people of good faith may dissagree and not have the knowlege we do. For GeorgeH, let me pass on a story of political censorship, of a kind. I had the pleasure of spending some time with Frank Holroid, when I was in law school. He was a defector from either MI 5 or 6, I get the two mixed up, I must admit. His job in Ireland was to put spin on Rueters news. An example was the reporting on the death of Patrick Campbell. Campbell was the head of the Shankill Butchers. They would take Catholics, indiscriminately chosen, and torture them in a back room of a pub refered to as the rumpus room. A Loyalist, who informed on them was publicly tortured to death by them. For decades no action was taken against him, so one day he was killed by Irish Republicans. The Rueters story ran as follows. Today in Belfast, Patrick Campbell, a Butcher, was killed in a sectarian murder. It is hard in such an invironment to know what is going on, and being done with the indorcement of your vote. Peace and understanding Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:57 PM Also, Mbo: Peace is not a simple absoult. I have known Burnadette McCaulisky for many years and as with most things, we agree on the present treaty, we are against it. However, we are both against continuing a war when the other side is involved in talking, even if that talk is without honest intentions. Violence must always be defensive. Many American Irish are not aware of the degree that the Repulican movement has stuck by this concept for generations. I never met a volunteer who did not pick up a gun without great reluctence. We, Repulicans, of all people, cannot see issues as black and white, there are mostly grey aries. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Big Mick Date: 08 Dec 99 - 01:01 PM I follow this thread with interest. GeorgeH, Mbo, and InOBU are relative newcomers to this forum, and I read your posts with interest. I would recommend you all read some of the earlier threads on the subject, such as "Back Home in Derry". George, when you talk music, you are very helpful and insightful. Your discussions of Irish matters always puzzle me though. You are quick to make horseshit snide comments like the one above ("I can't help but wonder which side of the Atlantic.........")which has absolutely no relevance whatever to the discussion at hand. It is cheap and of no value. Whatever gave an Englishman any more right to comment on Irish affairs than an American? You don't live in that country any more than we do. Your heritage, perhaps? I am only in this country because the policies of the British government made it impossible for people like my grandparents who were of Republican political leanings to live in their own country? A more intimate knowledge of what the true political situation is? I doubt it. Your media actively censors all information on the North of Ireland. Always has. Americans support the IRA with no knowledge of the misery they cause? How about Brits that support the actions of the RUC and the British Army, when even Amnesty International condemns the action of both. The point of my tirade is this. I tire of self righteous folks from that side of the Atlantic telling Yanks what they should or shouldn't have an opinion on. There is at least an argument that says the current and best hope of long term peace and disarmament would not have been possible without us Yanks. Let us leave this pious hypocritical bullshit behind and join with our cousins as they boldly march towards peace. We owe it to the children. Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 01:11 PM Big Mick! Read the Mudcat Night before Christmas - St. Nick is bringing a harp for you as well, Brother! Slan go foil Is mise le meas Larry As to those who make ad hominum arguemnts on political topics, Bad Bobby and his sister Fiona ran down the stairs to see their stockings on Christmas day in the Morning. Och! Bobbie! Look! Ive a watch and it is running! Bobbie reached in to his stocking to find something vile with some hay, as is traditional for bad weens, Look! Fee! Ive got a Horse AND ITS GONE! |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 02:30 PM Well said. Personally, I think the IRA and whoever the Ulster baddies are should just throw there weapons into the sea and let Manannan MacLir do his job. The've got freedom already--they shouldn't botch it up by trying too hard in the cause of freedom. I know the main problem is the Catholics in Northern Ireland don't like being under British rule. And the rebellion against that is whats causing the Protestants grief. My advice is--England, let it have it's freedom, with joint rule. Extremists must step down. Look, the Protestants are not going to reinstate The Penal Laws, and the Catholics aren't going to try to convert all the Protestants. If everyone could just get past those stereotypes, maybe we would see peace. "Star Trek" predicts peace WILL come in 2017. Let's all hope and pray that it comes true! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Áine Date: 08 Dec 99 - 03:34 PM A Lorcan na gCurach and Mbo, Below is a poem that I wrote one day during the war in Kosovo, after hearing a story on the radio about a woman who had been forced to leave her village with her newborn baby. The baby died on the way to the border and the woman had no choice but to bury the child on the side of the road in the snow. I reacted to this story as a woman and a mother, with no political theory or side or ideal. The sorrow I felt was a culmination of the historical misery of the women and children of Ireland and the knowledge that this kind of misery is still inflicted on women and children to this day. Before any of you fellas start slinging bad words and accusations at each other again, stop a moment and think of the ones that always suffer the most in war. Le meas agus gach dea-ghui, Áine
Ar Bhóthar i gCósovó |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 03:39 PM Let me try to put what should take a long book to tell, simply. This is the result of a number of court cases Ive worked on as well as first hand experience. GeorgeH was amused by my reading of the cold war NATO, part in the trobles. This is - in brief, how it goes. In the mid sixties, there was a trend to non-alinement begun with the withdrawl of Spain. Australia also, voting in a socialist PM, was indanger of not allowing NATO to use its ports for nuclear weapons, as New Zeland later chose not to do. The strange death of the Austrailian PM made some think that NATO would do anything to keep the trend of non-alinement from spreading. As you may know, Ireland has a constitutional garentee of nuetrality. Simple ecconomics do not explain England supporting the loyalist community, and the surpression of democracy gives lie to the statement that they support majority rule in the North, Derry for decades had an English supported gerymandered system whereby two thirds of the population were controled by the votes on one third. While all this was going on, there were losses, each year off the coast of the lower 26 counties, of fishing boats, that it was proven were draged under by British subs getting fouled in their nets, while placeing listening divices off the coast to monitor Soveit subs, useing Ireland as a sonic lea, to approach the coast of England. The only place for much of the latter part of the century, you could stage a defense of the Scappa Flow, was Ireland, and Ireland has been seen as necessary in flying large amounts of military materials to Europe, as a staging ground, the reason a totally unneeded airport was built in Mayo at Knock. Irelands nuetrality and airports were made use of by NATO, to bomb the mid east, and the door was opened a crack to a negotiated peace in Ireland, confirming the theories of a number of us, who said it was about NATO all along. Add to this that the three years of secret negotiations with the IRA began the year of the break up of the Soviet Union, and there is more evidence. This all gives credence to the Icaris plan, a NATO document, made public by Irish Republicans, who said it was authentic at the time, and I think it probubly was, that came to light in the late seventies or early eighties, that held that if Russian tanks moved into Germany, NATO would force Ireland to allow the US to use Irelands airports as staging grounds for NATOs responce. ANyone who thinks wars among supper powers are about small regional disputes, has not learned much about history Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: katlaughing Date: 08 Dec 99 - 06:29 PM Very interesting postings, phoaks. Mick, thanks for jumping in; we've been here before, eh? My original comment in this post was not intended in any way to cast aspersions on either side. As a woman and a mother, I am appalled at the killing and destruction by both factions and wish only for peace. Some of my heritage comes from Northern Ireland to Nova Scotia; don't know much more than that, except that I've always had an affinity for the Isle and its traditional heritage. These days there is no reason to accuse others of not knowing the truth about things. We can get our news from around the world, from independent sources. Before writing an editorial, in 1998, on Portadown, I read many accounts from several sources for a better perspective. I quote from it: That the Orangemen want to flaunt a victory from 1690 by parading through the Catholic neighborhood of Portadown is obscene, deadly and childish. Written just sixteen years after that battle, how ironic that the following by Jonathan Swift is so applicable to our times: "We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another". Yes, we should honour those who have fallen in struggle and never forget them, but we should not glorify the wars that caused their deaths and use that as an excuse to continue hatred and violence. kat
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 06:35 PM Get Back Get Back, We re under fearce attack Haul down the flag, o William, the sargent saddly cried It was the bogside doodlebug, the poor man he had spied (smiling) Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 06:51 PM I think we should remember the wars, but not use them to continue violence. We remember the American Revolution, and are on good terms with England now. England and France hated each other for years, and we remember and honor things like the Hundred Years War or the Napoleonic Wars, and England & France now are best buds. I think Si Kahn had it right when he sang "It's not the fight you're dreaming of, but those you really fought." Let the wars & heroes & people be remebered, and let us have the kind of peace that will not need us repeat those wars to keep it. --Mbo(caoineadh) |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Date: 08 Dec 99 - 07:05 PM I wouldn't say that England and France were best buds. I know this has nothing to do with independence in Northern Irlenad but you can't blame everything on the English. To a large extent, the Irish people were victims of their own aristocrats who betrayed them during the potato famine. It wasn't just the fault of the British but also greedy Irish lords who wouldn't help their tenants. The history of Scotland and Ireland is full of cruelty and betrayal, often at the hands of their own aristocracy who were more concerned about filling their own coffers than the welfare of their people. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 07:07 PM Sadly, you're right. "It's heart pierced by traitors and slaves." --Mbo |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE 12TH OF JULY^^ From: Big Mick Date: 08 Dec 99 - 07:37 PM I am going to post a poem, written probably 150 years ago, and originally pointed out to me by Philippa (How are you, my friend?). Sean Tyrell set it to music, and I have now begun to perform it at every performance. In it the author uses the Orange Lily and its green stem as a metaphor for the parties, and the good soil is Ireland. This isn't about being Orange or Green, it is about being Irish. The poem is so relevant today.................... 12th of July Come pledge again your heart and your hand One grasp that will never sever Our password be our native land, our motto love forever And let the Orange Lily be, your badge my patriot brother. It's the everlasting green for me, and we.......for one another Behold how green that gallant stem, on which the flower is blooming How in one heavenly breeze and beam, both flower and stem are glowing The same good soil sustaining both makes both united flourish Yet cannot give the orange growth and cease the green to nourish The more the hand that plucks that flower Will vainly strive to cherish But in that hour the stem blooms on The flower it begins to perish Regard them then of equal worth While last their genial weather The time's at hand when deep in earth They will both sink together And even though it be in our country's cause Our party feelings blended 'Til lasting peace from equal laws On both will have descended 'Til then the Orange Lily be Your badge my patriot brother It's the everlasting green for me And we........for one another |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 07:40 PM Read everything by Dr. Kristeen Conealy about the famine, she proves it was English policy to clear the lands of peasent farmers, and the famine was the tool. Ill get back with titles and the proper spelling of her name, or she will give me a well deserved punch next time she is in New York. She teaches at the University of Liverpool, and is a truely fine scholar. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Ferret Date: 08 Dec 99 - 07:40 PM Oh No not again |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: alison Date: 08 Dec 99 - 07:53 PM Why do we have to keep dredging this up? The people of Ireland have made their choice.. they have chosen peace.... and it is going to be a long hard road with many hurdles before they get there..... but "more power to their elbows" for trying. We can't even discuss it here without people getting hostile or defensive, so think how hard it is for the people who live there. They have centuries of mistrust and suspicion to overcome...... let's help them instead of raking it all up over and over..... I can understand GeorgeH asking about backgrounds.... there are many "plastic shamrock Irish" who have seen riverdance and reckon they know all there is to know, without knowing any of the actual history.... no offense intended, I'm not suggesting this is the case here.... Let's try and concentrate on peace.... My background???? born and raised in Belfast lived there for 27 years right through "the troubles.".... now I'm in Oz.... I left in search of sunshine and jobs... not to escape. slainte alison |
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Subject: Lyr Add: WHITE SNOW OF THE SPRINGTIME From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:09 PM Now that's some poem, Aine. And is it a song as well? And that's a great song too Big Mick. What kind of tune is it? I find it hard to take happy triumphalist songs about war, or the thought of people cheering it on from a distance. And I think that's what George H is on about in his question about where people live. There's a different flavour to support for armed struggle when it's from thousands of miles away, or when it's from places where there've been bombings. That's something which the English and the Irish, both in Ireland and in England, have in common, whatever we think about the people who've been doing the bombing. It's something which neither of us share with the Americans, or the American born Irish for that matter. (And that's not saying that people in America haven't got a right to have a view and a role to play). The war's been an awful thing. No one is free from blame, though the main blame lies on a succession of English politicians, mostly on the right. Over the past century, they have used Ireland as an instrument for advancing their own domestic agenda, "playing the Orange card" whenever it suits them. Both sections of the Northern Irish community have been cheated and exploited, and trapped in a fratricidal civil war. And they have done awful things to each other. My father was 18 months in jail for fighting the Staters in the Civil War, and he was broken hearted by what was happening in the North during his last years before he died. He used to say they brought shame on the IRA. It's a pretty shoddy peace deal in many ways; most peace deals are like that. But if it provides a space within which the two parts of the Northern Irish community can learn to recognise that they have far more in common with each other than with England, it can mean an end to the longest war on the planet. God knows where it goes from here. Maybe when the Scots have broken away from England there'll be a confederation of Scotland and two Irish States within the European Union? Maybe King Charles will turn Catholic, and Ian Paisley will have to become a Republican... On a more domestic Mudcat note - "You know, George, I'm really getting tired of you and your anti-Irish patriotism." That's hardly fair, Mbo. The man thinks that, while Cromwell did terrible things in Ireland he did some good in England. I don't agree with him, but it's not "anti-Irish". I know people who have been active in opposing the British involvement in Ireland would share that view. Tony Benn for example. And as for "I don't hear anyone complaining about American & British nationalism!", well I'll be happy enough to do so anytime it gets out of hand and takes itself seriously. Here's a song I wrote for the peace process a couple of years ago: WHITE SNOW OF THE SPRINGTIME Well it came like some angel before you could know. Now the blossom is fallen, it's gone like the snow. The blossom is fallen, now the white tree is green - When the summer is over then the fruit will be seen. White snow of the springtime, new hope once again, Strength to us all, till we meet here as friends, With hearts joined together, for all that is done - Peace ever after, from here and now on, Peace ever after, from here and now on. Now it's time to remember the lessons we learn As we walk down this road, on which there's no return. Skies that are cloudy, the grass that is green, We carry them with us, those sights we have seen. White snow of the springtime, new hope once again, Strength to us all, till we meet here as friends, With hands joined together, for all that is done - Peace ever after, from here and now on, Peace ever after, from here and now on. No greater love could a man ever show Than to lay down his dreams for his friends and his foes. Now and for ever, to stretch out those hands, Peace to the people of these troubled lands White snow of the springtime, new hope once again, Strength to us all, till we meet here as friends, With hands joined together, for all that is gone - Peace ever after, from here and now on. Peace ever after, from here and now on. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:19 PM Thanks, Mick. I love that poem, and have read it many times myself. Well, here's one "plastic shamrock Paddy" who knows his stuff. I don't read anything else nowadays except books about Irish history and folklore. Though my actual Irish blood may only equal 10% of the whole, I feel I have this duty to destroy the stereotype of the Irish, and to achieve a greater understanding of the people. I try to teach people about St.Columcille & Brendan, and The Dagda and The Firbolgs, and Finn and Oisin and Caoilte, Grace O'Malley, Brian Boru, and O'Carolan, and Rafferty, and have them think of the richness of Irish history & culture, instead of shamrocks and leprechauns and getting drunk on green beer and Danny Boy and When Irish Eyes Are Smiling. I love to dispel these preconcieved notions about many cultural groups, Native Americans, French, Scots, Germans, Italian, and YES the Japanese. Don't let ol' George make you think I'm a racist or bigot who doesn't care about other country's and culture's pain & sorrow. I lived in Japan for 3 years, and came to understand their way of life and culture. My family used to do a monthly newsletter for folks back home, all about Japanese culture. If have a great respect for them, and destest any ridicule made against them. I don't give a dingo's kidney about WWII. To me, all that is over and done, they were forgiven long before I even moved to Japan. And there ARE great stories on either side, and I love them equally. I have no hatred for the Japanese whatsoever, but then again I was not in WWII, so maybe it's easier for us young folks to forgive and forget... --Mbo (Oyasumi Nasai) |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: katlaughing Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:48 PM Mick, Alison, McGrath, Aine, THIS is why I keep coming to the Mudcat. Your words, songs, poems you've posted, bring tears to my eyes, in a feeling of empathy, hope, poignancy. Reminds me, once again, of the thread, If M'Catters Ruled the World, 'twould be a far, far better place, IMHO. Thank you, kat |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Big Mick Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:58 PM Mister McGrath, I bow to your wisdom. A marvelous post and a brilliant set of lyrics. Have you set it to a tune? I would, with your permission, love to perform it. I want to add a set of songs to the rebel repertoire that cause the Shamrock Irish here in the states to think about what it is they support. I am looking for songs that challenge perceptions about the troubles, challenge the Grandchildren of Ireland to think about something more than slogans and rebel music. I want them to think of the children and the families, in both communities, that must live with the madness. And I want them to quit dehumanizing the parties to all this. It is how the Generals keep the fight going. It is how the demagogues continue playing a religion card to keep Christians of different flavors at one anothers throat, and full of fear and loathing instead of peace and love. And, most of all, I want them to listen to all the people of Ireland, instead of only the voices that have something to gain by the sorrow continuing. We, the children of the Irish Diaspora, have a stake. But it must never be a stake through the heart of the peace process. Am I forsaking my Republican roots? Not in this life, boyo. But it seems to me the hour of victory is at hand. And all we have to do is support the wishes of the people of that blessed land. If we do that with the same vigor that we supported the armed struggle, the end is obvious. And no more children will have to grow with the shadow of the troubles over them. No more madness such as Omagh....No more hate in the name of Christ. And "Irelands wealth for Irelands people" (James Connolly) Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:58 PM Can we all join hands now and sing Sean Keane's "Songs of Healing"? Anyone? --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Gint Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:59 PM Mbo has a point, most religions purport forgiveness so let people sort out their problems. to be honest you can pontificate as much as you like but it is the people who have to live with Brits on the street and men in masks who you need to be thinking of it is for them to decide what to do.....not you it's looking good for peace, let them get on with it I'm not saying forget but do forgive
As an aside the only thing I'm biggoted about is mime artists... if you have something to say, say it, damn it |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 09:12 PM I found out that when Cromwell and the Puritans were eliminating theater, among other things, in England, they had a particular hatred of mimes, and a strong wish to execute them all. Perhaps he was not all bad after all? --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: _gargoyle Date: 08 Dec 99 - 09:20 PM Very Nice!
May I suggest (sincerely and truly) a regular posting (weekly or monthly or even daily ((but something as methodical as "daily" becomes a drag upon the poster....and it also quickly looses its' audience)))
ANYTHING to counter the "thought for a day" that has currently been running.
Most of use in the STATES are facinated with Ireland and can use a little "education."
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Áine Date: 08 Dec 99 - 09:28 PM A Chaoimhin agus a Cait (McGrath and Kat), Go raibh mile maith agaibh (thank you both very much). Yes, McGrath, I do have a tune to that poem. Kat's heard it, even though I have a hard time singing it without breaking down. Hopefully, you'll be able to hear on the Mudcat Radio in a couple of weeks (if the lungs heal enough from the pneumonia). I'd truly love to hear your song, too. And yourself there, Big Mick, when do we get to hear you? This is how we will promote the healing, through the music. Like the little drummer boy, this is the only gift I have to give. Le meas, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Gint Date: 08 Dec 99 - 09:47 PM Áine get better so we can all hear it Music is a great healer, it makes you happy, sad, thoughtful and bad it always gets a reaction out of you and can pull you from the brink Healing through music both physical and emotional music is definately a mover Get well and kind thoughts |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 09 Dec 99 - 01:09 AM Aine, Fine poem, it is nice to see that classical Irish poetry is alive and well. As to the so called American facination with Ireland - My family have always been, first and foremost Otways - wheither in Wales Ireland England Austrailia or the US, and have a sence of our family where ever we are born. I grew up in a strong ballad tradition, and lived on both sides of the puddle. The same ones who object about our advocasy for Irish civil rights, would be the first, I believe, to be a comrad when we try to advocate for the rights of ethnic minorities in the third world or eastern Europe. As to the level of education, though my spelling is hampered by a learning disability, I have a Juris Doctorate, earned in the third best law school in the US, and got into that school before there was an Americans with Disabilities act, so earned on my own tallents and merits (not to say that thouse who get accomodations for their dissabilities did not make it on their merits.) My education about Irish politics happened on the streets of Belfast, and in most of Irelands western counties. Again, I fail to see how living exclusively in an environment of censorship gives one a better perspective than one who travels back and forth to that country and has access to facts that are suppressed in England and Ireland? But, there again, maybe to really understand the situation you need to have blinders on. I am reminded of the George Orwell book 1984, (yes I do read and respect English authors) What a wonderful Orwellian world where censorship opens your eyes to the truth... |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: katlaughing Date: 09 Dec 99 - 03:26 AM Aine, sorry I didn't say something. It is a beautiful song, guys and she does a wonderful job of singing it, with or without tears, although there was no way I could stop mine from flowing when I heard her sing it. Thanks for the background, Larry, interesting. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Alan of Australia Date: 09 Dec 99 - 06:50 AM G'day, Just to clear up a bit of Aussie history, InOBU, your sentence about our PMs reads as if the "socialist" PM was the one who died in strange circumstances. The PM who died in possibly strange circumstances was Harold Holt in 1967. He drowned while swimming at a beach near his home. The body was never recovered, leading to much speculation. He was Liberal, i.e. on the right of the political spectrum. (Tory clone). Our first left wing PM since 1949 was Gough Whitlam, elected in 1972. He is still alive & well as are our other recent Labor PMs.
Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 09 Dec 99 - 08:10 AM THanks for the corrections here Alan: The worry about the loss of your PM, and that in fact was the incident I refer to, is that it came during a time that the CIA had been exposed as having been responcible for several poliitcal assasinations of elected leaders, for example Patrice LaMumba, in the Congo, who CIA defector Phil Agee, published the details of his death. Although there is no evidence, the time of his death while swimming was very questionable, as he was, correct me if I am wrong, for Austrailia taking an isolationist possition re: NATO. HEY ALAN! I hope you are helping save the OTWAYS! as long as you are down under! I dont mean those of that name, but the endangered forrest region being cut down for kleenex, I believe... Thanks for the further information, Keep preserving Oz s other great resource, Eric Boggle! Chears back at you Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: GeorgeH Date: 09 Dec 99 - 08:21 AM Look, sorry, guys, I don't have the time to give this justice at the moment, and certainly won't have time to come back to it. And while Mudcatters would be sympathetic to the reasons why that is so, I don't have time to go into that either. Back there someone said: >Let's try and concentrate on peace.... and one of my original protagonists suggested a song of reconcilliation. I applaud both sentiments. So a couple of points - not to further the argument but in the hope of offering a touch of clarification. Firstly - why is the side of the atlantic significant? Well my experience is 25 years of US persons spouting simplisticly on the subject of Ireland from a position of relative ignorance - from both republican and orange sides of the division. Whether that applies to those contributing to these threads I suspend judgement on. Really, it's all too easy to trivialise complex issues - such as Ireland. InObo and Mbu both post articles after my original contribution here which suggest a more balanced perspective than other posts of theirs. Similarly, all sorts of wrong assumptions have been made about my views. All I've ever said here - on almost any political topic I've contributed to - is "things aren't as simple as that". There is more common ground between us than my critics imagine. AND I don't belive that, in reality, political censorship is much more of an issue in the UK (outside Ireland) than it is in the US - although your freedom of information legislation does offer some help in cutting through Government propagandist bullshit which is denied to us. At which point - reluctantly - I must close as I'm due to help at my daughter's school in 10 mins (she works there, rather than being a pupil). And when I come back to make up the time out I'd better get on with what I'm paid to do. Regards G. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 09 Dec 99 - 08:40 AM Have a good morning GeogreH Check the gift you got in the Mudcat night before christmas, I agree we probubly agree on much more than would come through in the single sentence jabs that happen on line. Trying to condence thrity years worth of conversations with everyone from Burnadette McCaulisky, to Sean McBride,into a few paragraphs, is not an easy task. I again repete to my fellow Republican posters, read what GeorgeH actually sais, and think of the totallity, this is an environment where missunderstandings are easy. For example, it is easy to see me as being much more hard line, as some put it, when I say I am against the treaty, as there was threat of force behind signing it, if it is ignored that I, as most others opposed to the treaty, say, we are 100% against continuation of violence while talking is possible, or more, while England is not instigating the violence. If any Repulican has a knee jerk reaction to through bricks at the English working class, I would advise taking the collected essays of James Connolly into the corner, set your chair to face the wall, and dont come to the dinner table until you understand what that great man was saying. It is an often stated native bit of wisdom, that we have one mouth but two ears, listen more than you talk, Brothers, All the best, and peaceful Christmas Larry
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Big Mick Date: 09 Dec 99 - 08:55 AM Yeah, I agree. The English people are a wonderful bunch with marvelous traditions and a well deserved reputation as a warm and hospitable group. My comments are directed at the administrations of governments that have been responsible for the troubles in the North of Ireland. I would also agree that GeorgeH's comments, in the main, are thought provoking and well informed. I always enjoy, and often disagree, his posts. As long term Mudcatter's know, the one way to provoke a nasty response from me is to paint "Yanks" with too broad a brush. It is true that there are those who are ill informed and unaware of the misery they cause by blindly contributing without real investigation. But most of the people I know, and of similar sentiment, are well informed and have studied the issue intensely. I believe that is what you see also in the comments of InOBU and Mbo. We may disagree, but the fact that we are Yanks has no bearing on the disagreement. Or at least no more than George being a Brit. Great thread........and George, the fact that you couldn't respond because of having to take the wee girl to school shows me you have great priorities...............Good man, you are!!!!!! Mick |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: paddymac Date: 09 Dec 99 - 10:02 AM This has been a great read - very informative. At slight risk of thread creep, and on the generic topic of censorship and governmental collusion, there is a great new work available fro ZRobt. Stinnett called "Day of Deceit". It deals with the Pearl harbor saga. Not fun reading, but I suggest it is very necessary reading. Slan! |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: katlaughing Date: 09 Dec 99 - 10:11 AM And then there's Veil by Bob Woodward of Watergate fame, in which he gives excruciating details of the "shadow" CIA under Reagan and all of the bullshit, etc. that went on with Nicaraugua, etc. Scary and in-depth, written just four years ago. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 09 Dec 99 - 10:18 AM "We'll banish discord from our land, and in harmony like sisters stand." "Oh, oh, the heart's a wonder, stronger than the guns of thunder. Even when we're pulled asunder, love will find a way." --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 09 Dec 99 - 02:02 PM Ahh, the Shamrock Shore, a Paul Brady fan - Mbo, great song that, or didnt Delorus Keene also record it, But if those Squires would stay at home, and not to other counties roam , To build factories to employ the laboring core THen mbos, Bigmicks and Otways would be living in the old sod, eh?
All the best to all |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Dec 99 - 02:34 PM Just come back to this and glad to see the mood of the thread hseems to have got more mellow and humane than it was tending towards.
I'd love it more than I can say, if you could sing my song, Big Mick, and Aine too. If you can read the dots, the tunes is there in my website. Clicky If my efforts weit that blue clicky thing doesn't work you can always find my website URL from the profile bbc has put in her archives for me, and it's easy to find the songs once your're there.
I think I included "White Snow" in a tape I sent to Mudcat Radio a few weeks back, along with Blue Clicky Thing and a few others. And I can send it as an email attachment too, if anyone wants it.
And InOBU - I knew Bernadette back when she was Devlin, and I feel uneasy disagreeing with her over anything to do with Ireland. If I'd had a vote in the referendum she'd have had me uneasy which way to vote. But now the votes been done, and the die is cast. What matters is to stick together.
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Áine Date: 09 Dec 99 - 03:58 PM A Chaoimhin agus a Lorcan, I just went and reread the first verse of your song, Kevin. And then the references that you both made to Bernadette made a (non-blue) click in my head. I stood up and went to my bookcase and pulled down the copy of Bernadette's book, The Price of My Soul. I gave this book to my mother when I was teenager, and now that she has passed, it is back in my possession. Here is what I inscribed to her in the front of the book: 'To Mother: An angel of the morning (with guts). Merry Christmas! Dec. 25, 1969. Love, Áine' I don't know about you, but the hair on the back of my neck is tingling. Le gach dea-ghui, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 09 Dec 99 - 06:18 PM Ah McGrath and Aina A bit of concious thread drift. When remembering how long we have known, loved and been in wonder at Bernies quiet fire, and as today a court has ruled that the murder of Dr. King was indeed a conspiracy, I remember praying with such pain, upon hearing of the shooting of Bernie and her hsuband. I remember, as though it was yesterday, thinking, why am I praying again, as I did for Bobby Kennidy, for Dr. King, and knowing, with the reports, how futile those prayers felt. But, as we can never second guess either the works of God, or the British Army medic, who was meant to be their to declare her dead, but was bravely human and humain enough to do what was needed to save their lives, well it makes for a great feeling of thanks at this season of peace. One of these days, if there is an appropriate thread about travellers rights, I tell you about the only time I ever dissagreed with Bernie, two decendants of Roma, disscussing the right to travel! Seasons greetings to all, and Peace in our times Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Littlke Dorrit Date: 09 Dec 99 - 06:41 PM This has been a thought provoking thread and many valid points have been given on both sides. I do not believe as an englishwoman that I can deny the misdeeds of my forefathers and agree with inobu about the censorship of the past years. The Thatcher years destroyed this country and isolated from Europe and the rest of the world-She was a modern day imperialist no wonder the rest of the world thinks we are a cold and arrogant nation. We cannot change her legacy over night but thank god and pray hard that peace is on its way.I said in a previous thread that we do not care -that is not strictly true but was a prickly defense!. I do not associate Unionist bigotry with the kind of life that I lead in England. Irish Scottish and welsh live in the uk intermingle intermarry ad noone thinks anything of it. Hell, I even like the french!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 09 Dec 99 - 08:23 PM Áh little Dorritt! A story about harmony under she who once had to be obayed... The PM was walking down by Thames-side, when what should she see, but an out of work fellow, who said to her, Please, mum, may I have a few pence for a cup of tea? Out of my way, you filthy Bum, she responded walking on. Soon she came to another, down and out fellow, may i have a few pence for a crust of bread? Out of my way you filthy lay about. THen she spied a poor fellow, with no legs and a sign about his neck saying, Falklands War Vet. She pulled out a ten pound note and handed it to him, saying, here you are, have a good meal on me, you brave boy. Muchos Gracias, the fellow answered. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Date: 09 Dec 99 - 10:45 PM Ms. Kat, what is supposed to be the meaning of this "something to celebrate with caution.?" What side are you on? And what is your caution? |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 10 Dec 99 - 08:03 AM Oviuously the kind of caution that causes someone to ask the question above anonimously! Larry Otway |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Ringer Date: 10 Dec 99 - 08:36 AM Not every English(wo)man agrees with you, Little Dorrit (is your name a typo, by the way?). -I- think that, far from destroying this country, Mrs T restored it from being a laughing-stock (remember "the English Disease"?) to being able to hold its head up again. She wasn't perfect, but was, IMO, a Good Thing. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Dec 99 - 02:01 PM Well there are people who'd say the same of Oliver Cromwell, Bald Eagle. Burt I'd have a bit more in common with them.
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 10 Dec 99 - 02:16 PM Well Sisters and Brothers Just goes to show you, as we hear from our friend Bald Egal, that this is the stuff of horse races. There are still people who believe in Reganomics and winning cold wars. Some people believe you count up the toys at the end of the game, to see who won, and overlook the casualties. The Irish Free State, to return to the thread, May have had their Rory Liam dick and Joes, but the Iron Grocerywoman had her Bobby Sands MP, Francis Hughes, Ray McCreesh, Patsy O Hara, Joe MacDonnald, Martin Hurson, Keven Lynch, Michael Devine, and so many others in England, the Malvitas (a war fought for her husbands buisness interest while publicly promoting the rights of his tenant farmers)... sometimes it is better to be a laughing stock. Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Bert Date: 10 Dec 99 - 02:25 PM Just one of the reasons that made me get the hell out of England was when old tin nickers stole my vote. So don't tell me how good she was. I was working in The Middle East at the time and them Tories knew that a lot of Ex-Pats were against the Common Market so they wouldn't accept absentee votes for the referendum. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: johntm Date: 10 Dec 99 - 03:45 PM Big Mick I love that 12th of July song as sung by Terrell, but I have to admit I have trouble deciphering the last stanza. Can anyone help me on what the first lines mean? John T M. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Little dorritt Date: 10 Dec 99 - 06:25 PM Probably was a typo bald eagle who cares? the damage that thatcherism did to this country will take decades to put right. i never held my head up in the thatcher years - as an ardent pro-european I spent much of it cringing in embarassment. She destroyed peoples lives, from miner's to ethnic minorities to trade unionists - the list went on and on. a cure that is worse than the disease bald eagle is no cure at all! |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Den Date: 10 Dec 99 - 11:44 PM Dear friends east is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet. I come from N. Ireland, I lived my life there. All my imediate family still live there. I don't usually respond to these threads and I promised myself that I wouldn't respond to this one. Now here I am...I could tell you stories that would curl your hair...but I won't, not now. To do that would be (IMO)undermine what is beginning to happen in NI and alienate some people, who's oppinions I appreciate on the Mudcat. The NI malady has already infected the Mudcat. We're starting to draw up camps. George H backs Cromwell I see his point of view, I'm sure to George, Cromwell is one of us. I understand that. I also understand the views of those who find Cromwell repugnant. In NI your one or the other. It has always been and will always be. For those who don't know, NI is polarized. In its most basic terms the football team you support. Celtic v Rangers, Cliftonvile v Linfield all have a baring on where you come from, what religion you are. There are whole towns in NI that are one or the 0ther. Newry or Rostrevor or Lisburn or Lurgan. David Trimble won't even shake Jerry Adams hand and they're supposed to be civil and ultimately form a government. I extend my hand to whoever will take it in understanding, that I will not change the way you think and You will definatly not change the way I think. But in the hope that you may understand me and I you. And maybe in that way we will find peace and maybe some day even like each other. In my oppinion that's the best case scenario for NI. I stand to be corrected. Den |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: _gargoyle Date: 10 Dec 99 - 11:50 PM I personally, would like the "hear" from the laughing cat....
Which side are you on???? |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: paddymac Date: 11 Dec 99 - 09:39 AM Den - To say that "It has always been and will always be" in regards to the NI situation strikes me as defeatest, at best. Yes, there is a long and ugly history of apartheid there, and I recognize it won't change overnight. That said, I believe that it must and will change. Can you really imagine anything more stupid than hating people because they adhere to a different variety of the same faith? Yes, there is a lenghty history of christians killing christians in the name of christ, dating at least to the Albigensian crusades of the early 13th century. And I wouldn't be too surprised to find similar insanities in other faith communities as well, not to mention inter-faith killing. But the prevalence of the pattern doesn't change its fundamental stupidity. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Dec 99 - 09:58 AM "East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet" quotes Den.
But if you follow on with the next lines you see that Kipling was actually saying something much more hopeful and relevant:
Oh East is East and Wst is West, and never the twain shall meet, Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's own Judgement Seat; Or from the Falls and the Shankill.
If English politicians ( and a few other outsiders)can stop stirring the fire for a generation, there's every reason for hope.
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Alan of Australia Date: 11 Dec 99 - 09:59 AM G'day Larry, These days I live a long way from the ranges that share your name, but my parents spend a lot of time in the Otways, my father has written a book on the native orchids in the area & my brother has a holiday house in the area.
Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Den Date: 11 Dec 99 - 10:06 AM paddymac I did finish with I stand to be corrected. I sincerely hope from the bottom of my heart that I am wrong in my view. My family still live there. But, and theres always a but, I can't see any peace pilgrimages from the Shankill to Andy town or the residents of Ardoyne rushing out to embrace those from the Sandy Row. Defeatist maybe, realist definately. These communities have been divided for too long. This hatred, ignorance, lack of trust (pick one or two) may be stupid to those looking in from the outside but it is a way of life in NI. Its part of the fabric and it will not change in my lifetime if I live to be an old man and again I hope I'm wrong. The one thing I am grateful for is that the bombing and shooting has stopped. You can now do your Christmas shopping in the city centre without fear and then repair to Robinsons for a drink before getting your black hack back home. Just be careful which part of town you get in your taxi and be double sure which community the taxi serves. I don't want to get into a slagging match with you paddymac. I respect your oppinion too much but I'm not talking out of my hat here either. Den |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Áine Date: 11 Dec 99 - 10:08 AM I saw this morning in the paper that the Castlereagh interrogation center will be closed by the end of the year. This news evoked a visceral response in me being that a close friend had to endure ten days there years ago, along with her two little sisters, all of them minors at the time. She and her family still 'live with the nightmare of Castlereagh,' to paraphrase Alex Maskey; however, she is firmly behind the peace agreement and the eventual disarmament of all pm groups. Knowing her background and her thoughts on peace, and now seeing the closing of the facility, give me a firmer hope that peace can come to the island, one step at a time. Le meas, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Rick Fielding Date: 11 Dec 99 - 12:42 PM Anybody noticed that this thread is proceeding in an informative, respectful way. There has been anger, because it's a passionate issue, but also apologies. Most have shown that they understand (with different interpretations of course) the details involved. To me this indicates that people have done their homework, either by experiencing and observing, or extensive reading. It makes for the kind of writing that got me into Mudcat in the first place. That, and the same approach to discussions of music. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Dec 99 - 03:44 PM A bit up the thread I put a song in, and some people said they liked it. There's a Real Player file with me singing the tune (a bit off-key - I can't get used to singing at a computer) up on my website. Look in the What's New sesction.
And the URL for my website is www.bigfoot.com/~kevin.mcgrath
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Áine Date: 11 Dec 99 - 03:56 PM Kevin, I just emailed you about this song. It is beautiful, and I encourage everyone to go to Kevin's site and hear it. Well done, sir. Le meas, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Dec 99 - 07:07 PM Thanks, Aine.
And I share Rick's appreciation of the way this thread has avoided the spiral of vituperation that seems to have threatened to tear the Mudcat apart at times in the past. We don't have to avoid contentious subjects, we just have to avoid tearing each other to pieces, and ignoring other people's points of view.
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Dec 99 - 08:27 PM And I've just found out that while me song plays ok on Internet explorer, Netscape won't wear it. I'll never get me head round all this technical stuff. I think I'm coming down with the Millennium Bug. (And I've got a somg about that. Hasn't everyone?) |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Big Mick Date: 12 Dec 99 - 12:16 AM Rick, I am in complete agreement with you. I am very proud of this thread and its paricipants. I have tried unsuccessfully to have it before. But no one, up until this bunch have been able to deal with the passion from both sides. The closest we came was with Sapper and Penny. So to all here..........well done. You have exemplified that which is the very best about the Mudcat. Difference of opinion without personal attack. johntm, that last verse caused me some confusion as well. But I take it to be a comment that simply says that it doesn't matter what the cause of the blending, be who you are and we for each other. Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: johntm Date: 12 Dec 99 - 12:48 AM Big Mick That was my take also, but I wondered if I missed something. Terrell is right that the author was a poet to his core, and that is what you have to go with. Great song. Someone should push it as an if the anthem for N. Irland, if that does not seem too naive. John T. M |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: The Shambles Date: 12 Dec 99 - 04:51 AM See also Bumbling Englishman |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Ringer Date: 12 Dec 99 - 07:15 AM I don't understand your posting, Bert (from 10th - sorry for delay). It was a LABOUR government that had a referendum about the Common Market (as it was then), not Mrs T. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Dec 99 - 08:11 AM Big Mick: Looking at that line, I strongly suspect it's not what the author must have actually written, because it doesn't scan. It's very easy for mistakes to creep in through the writing or the printing, so I think there's no duty to stick to a text that may have been corrupted, if it might make better sense with a little change:
If I were singing it (and if I had the tune, I think I would want to) I'd be inclined to turn the line to:
Now may it be our country's cause
(Or maybe "Now may it be in common cause..." Either brings out the sense I think is actually intended.)
This is from the man who had the impertinence to rewrite and augment a Seamus Heaney song, "The Road to Derry" (and that's on my website as well. Frank Harte told me that Seamus quite approved of being included in the folk process, though I don't know what he thought of the amendments.)
I wonder if the song is related to "The Orange Lily-o", - which is another song you might think of bringing in to the repertoire. It's about a flower show, with "patriotic undertones" - and a hint of disdain for the English Viceroy, I think.
"Oh did you go to see the show
The elated muse, to hear the news
The lowland field may rose yield That is from, Colm O Lochlann's Irish Street Ballads - and on the next page there is Mrs McGrath. Colm writes in the notes about Mrs McGrath: "In the years 1913-16 it was the nost popular marching song of the Irish volunteers, Ilearnt it on route matches."
About the Orange Lily-o he writes "I heard an older and more pungent ballad, but could not find it printed. All I remember is
The thing is, there's always been in principle an honoured place for the Orange tradition in Ireland. (That's why the tricolour looks the way it does, instead of the sectarian Green with Papal White and Yellow that it started with in 1916.) Incidentally the tunes and metre of "The Sash" and "Kevin Barry" are interchangeable. And I think actually both songs work better if you switch the tunes around. If you've got the nerve...
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Áine Date: 12 Dec 99 - 12:15 PM A Chaoimhin, Do you have an MP3 player on your computer? If you can play an MP3 file, I will send you the version of The Twelfth of July that I have. Can't remember who does it, but I know it's very good. Let me know. And thank you for your last message. It's wonderful when someone with your knowledge shares it with us. Slan go foill, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Dec 99 - 01:48 PM I have winamp (another freebie); so I'd be delighted to have the song.
Not so much knowledge as qualified ignorance. The great thing with this medium is that you can leap in with a relevant quote from a book that's been gathering dust on your shelves, or chase off through the net to find some obsure bit of information, and people think you're highly knowledgeable.
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: alison Date: 12 Dec 99 - 11:40 PM Aine.. send it to me too please.... slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Áine Date: 13 Dec 99 - 12:27 AM Dear Kevin and Alison, Sending you both emails about where you can find this -- it'll save you both room in your email boxes! Slan, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Date: 14 Dec 99 - 12:21 AM And You Mr. Rick Fielding....
Precisely, Where Do You Lay?
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 14 Dec 99 - 08:21 AM Do you think our anonimous friend above, means what foot do you dig with? - or are you a Celtis or Rangers fan? Where do you lay sounds vaguely, well, I dont know, that is one of those what difference does it make quesitons, listen to what someone says not where they say it from. Larry Otway |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Dec 99 - 08:43 AM The pratt might think he's a chicken I suppose. It's very difficult lipreading what these Invisible Men are saying. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Feb 00 - 10:31 PM Well, today's another bad day in Ireland's history, I suppose. Though you can never tell, there might be some devious plot on, designed to get the process a bit further on by subtrfuge. "Choreography" is how they put it on the TV.
(I can't see why the IRA can't let off a bomb in a field somewhere - then the Brits can say "they've decommissioned some Semtex", and the IRA can say "We've demonstrated our military readiness", and everyone can get back to work. But maybe they've got to get Trimble past this big meeting he's got before they do anything simple like that.)
But that's not why I opened this thread up from the old one (rather than starting up a new one.) And please, lets not get into too much of a fight over it all. Though tghis thread was a pretty good one, I felt. There's some kind of a peace process on the Mudcat at the moment which has to be treated cautiously.
No - it's about the song "12th July" that Big Mick and others are singing with Sean Tyrrell's tune. There was a query about making sense of the last verse, and later Big Mick admitted that it was hard making sense of it. Well I think I've solved the problem.
The troublesome lines as posted above by Big Mick, and previously by someone else. and as sung currently, are: And even though it be in our country's cause Our party feelings blended I couldn't make sense of it either, and I've been singing instead "But when united in our country's cause" -which carries the sense which I feel is meant, and is also easier to sing with the tune Sean Tyrrell put to it.
But the other day in a charity shop I came across an anthology of Irish writing called "Rich and Rare", by SEan McMahon, publisheed in 1984 by Poolbeg Press in Swords, Co Dublin.
It has lots of great stuff in it. Did you know the original version of "Croppies lie down" starts with the line "We soldiers of Erin, so proud of the name"? And the full version of "The Protestant Boys" has the lines "While Papists shall prove our brotherly love - we hate them as masters, we love them as men."
But the point here is that the book has a version of "The 12th July" - or rather "Song for July 12th 1843", as written by John Frazier (pen name Jean de Jean Frasier) in the Nation, which was edited then by Thomas Davis.
And in place of the confusing lines, the final verse runs:
E'vn thus be, in our country's cause
Which makes a lot more sense as a song. And even more sense as a sentiment. Especially today. (Mind, I think my variant version is easier to sing and to make sense of when you're listening.)
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: GUEST Date: 11 Feb 00 - 10:42 PM Today February 11, 2000 is GLORIOUS in Ireland's History!!!
Our trust is built on 400 years of precedent! |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Brendy Date: 11 Feb 00 - 10:47 PM If your first statement was not the reason you opened the thread, then why did you mention it? There has been a lot of things said recently about people who make statements purely to get a reaction. And to believe that some people thought it didn't apply to them. Well it does. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Gary T Date: 12 Feb 00 - 01:55 AM Well, anonymous guest, one way to ensure 400 more years of the same is to avoid any changes that could improve things. I can't say I'm informed enough to understand or pass judgment on the IRA's way of looking at things, but I find it very sad that what appeared to be a fairly promising opportunity to better the situation seems to be evaporating. Brendy, I would think the answer to this question: "If your first statement was not the reason you opened the thread, then why did you mention it?" is that given the title of the thread, it would be bizarre not to. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Feb 00 - 03:47 AM Gary's right there, Brendy - I opened the thread because that's the one where the query about the song came up. It was only when I opened it I noticed the title, and then I couldn't help but refer to the fact that Direct Rule is back again, which isn't a very good thing. No,it wasn't intended to stir the shit, and I doubt if we disagree too much on these things. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: The Shambles Date: 12 Feb 00 - 04:24 AM Today (12th February) there is still hope for peace. Can we all at least agree, to preserve that hope here? |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: GUEST,Trevor Date: 12 Feb 00 - 06:50 AM So long as the faceless gangsters of the IRA's Army Council pull the strings, Sinn Fein will dance to their tune and so will everyone else. Talk about a government within a government. Direct Rule from the Republican rump. Trevor |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Feb 00 - 07:08 AM The Shambles said the right thing. I hope we can keep to it. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Penny S. Date: 12 Feb 00 - 07:40 AM Lasting peace from equal laws - please. I can understand it wouldn't work any other way. The Catholic Bishop of Derry has an idea which might be valuable (in the Thursday Guardian, see www.newsunlimited). Penny |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Feb 00 - 07:43 AM I'm thinking "Spanish is the loving tongue, mi Amor, mi Corazon..." Why am I thinking that. Today in Spain's history might be equally hard to think about. It's because I'm so grateful that our folk tradition adds ways of finding being peacable that can be hard to find when we look only to one side of anything... that if one looks up McGrath's various recent postings, for instance, there's a richness of caring and reflection that looks at all of life, not just the content of this thread. Because I know that, I care what he says in this thread and can "hear" him. We all have that precious gift, to be able to step back from anything that's hard to think about within its own paradigm and instead look at it from an entirely new perspective. In fact even if we forget to do that intentionally, some song that helps us do it is liable to pop into our heads, like just did to mine. Example-- feeling really bad one day, really nasty and under outside attack, negative and lost, in pops: "In moments like this, I sing out a song, I sing out a love song...." A song that had been written to express love in a tender, loving moment-- now coming to pull me out of a funk. Today in Ireland's history... people are still people.
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 12 Feb 00 - 08:47 AM It takes courage and trust to make a peace. No army in the history of mankind gave its weapons over before the peace was assured. Both sides, like the detant between the US and Russia, must approach peace with courage and trust, but with caution. Enlish history in Ireland has been fraught with great instances of out and out treachery and cold blooded political murder by loyalists, even after the truce, as in the case of Barrister - I am drawing a blank on her name, to my abosulte shame - the like of her should never be forgotten (like Albi Sachs and John Finucaine some lawyers should stand as becons in the dark night of judical terrorism) - and, not to enguage in the degree of of name calling that Trevor does, in speaking about faceless etc. (not entirely true, as many volunteers in the IRA are well know and outspoken) I can only say that the lessons of Irish history call on both sides to exibit caution at the same time as extending trust and I can only pray that England has the courage to enguage in democracy. In friendship and peace Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 12 Feb 00 - 08:50 AM PS: If anyone can be so kind as to post Rosemarys last name in the above reference. She was the lawyer killed by a loyalist car bomb last summer. Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Áine Date: 12 Feb 00 - 09:46 AM Dear Larry, Her name is Rosemary Nelson. Le meas, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Linda Kelly Date: 12 Feb 00 - 05:04 PM I am the eternal optimist as far as ireland is concerned -the more normality returns to everday life the more difficult it will be to justify terrorism loyalist or republicanism. David Trimble spoke on the news yesterday of speaking with Martin Mcguiness and then gerry adams- that woudl have been unheard of a few months ago. I hope the suspension of the assembly is a breathing space and allows both parties to gras what is at stake. If all else fails perhaps another referendum shoudl be held to confirm whether the people of N.I want to continue depsite the decommissioning question. It is very important to remember that by and large despite no handover of weapons the ceasefire has held. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Brendy Date: 12 Feb 00 - 05:52 PM No, fair enough, McGrath. I don't think we differ too much on subjects such as this, and I accept your assertion that it was not the original reason you opened the thread again. I did forsee, though, statements as made by above named GUEST, and if everyone thinks the fault lies in the Nationalist camp, well, perhaps they are believing the propaganda that the English media have been purpounding of late.(only of late?) Trimble said that in November of last year he, and the rest of the Unionist party "jumped", and they invited Sinn Féin to "jump" with them. What on earth did they do that for?; why did they try to force the issue, instead of letting ALL affected interest groups, and institutions get on with the business of implementing the 'Agreement'? Ulster Unionism is no friend of democracy. Never has been. They are fighting tooth and nail to preserve the old order. The old order where THEY rule, and we obey. Where THEY decide who gets Council dwelling and where we accept it. Where THEY decide if we're guilty. Where THEY have the positions of power, and we are not allowed a slice of that cake. Anybody who thinks that the Unionists entered this peace process willingly has an ignorance of things worldly that I truly envy. Blowing a ship full of Semtex up does not solve anything; such things can be replaced. So, guns are not the problem. People think it is, or are led to believe that it is. Finding excuses to deny us a slice of that cake is what drives these Unionists. The only thing that they can't do as effectively as they have in the past is to have the undivided attention of the ruling Government. And in the days of Conservatism in England, the Ulster Unionists had Thatcher's and Major's ears; they held the balance of power. On occasion the fate of the Tory Govt. lay squarely in the lap of the Ulster Unionists. Did they use that power benevolently? I think not. Ulster Unionists are experts at shifting the focus of attention off themselves and their PR machine fosters fear and recrimination. And judging by certain posts in this thread, they have some of you convinced as well. Mandelson dissolved the Assembly because a self imposed condition by David Trimble was in danger of backfiring on him. If Gerry Adams had said in November that HE would resign unless Loyalist paramilitaries had started the handover of weapons by February 11th, Ulster Unionism would have blown it's top, and many speaches would have been made as to the imposition of alterior agendas on behalf of the Republican movement.
We can't win here. Not with that kind of logic in operation we can't. It helps not one whit to lay the blame at our door. If we keep dancing to the Unionist tune, they'll just keep playing. If they were dancing to our tune, they would be living in in our utopia. And as we both know GUEST, Trevor, that is not the case. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 13 Feb 00 - 10:23 AM Dear Dear Aine: Thanks, I was beside myself that I could not remember her last name. I was at a comference that she was to be the keynote speaker at, when she was murdered. It was full of her dear friends, all with storries of her heroism. I understand and endorse the spirit by which Ickle Dorritt makes her suggestion, however, suspention of Democracy can never be called breathing space. Britain must have the courage to stand up to the monster it created in Loyalist terrorism, and the only way to end a condition of war is with democracy, not the jerimander kind, where the majority of the naitonalist community is forced to leave, creating a false majority among loyalists, but a real enguaging meeting of ideas - and suspention of demorcacy in the face of threats can only lead us back to that blood soaked one way trail, we all want to leave behind us. All the best Larry
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: paddymac Date: 13 Feb 00 - 12:11 PM Trevor, many of us, yourself included, can do well to from time to time ponder, without blinders, the question of why there was ever a need for the IRA. We seem to be inching painfully toward a time when we can perhaps productively ponder not whether that need and the factors causing it still exist, but how much longer will it be so? |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Feb 00 - 08:34 PM "Blowing a ship full of Semtex up does not solve anything" - well it does, it means that they have "decommissioned" that Semtex, and have put the ball back into the other fella's court.
Of course they can perfectly well get some more, just as if they decommissioned some guns by melting them down they could always get some more. It's pure theatre, and a waste of time.
Where blowing up Semtex has it over destroying guns is that destroying guns has more overtones of surrender. Controlled explosions in a quarry somewhere maybe? Well, they could be seen as firework displays for the millennium, evidence of continued ability to wage war - but also they'd serve as a way of fulfilling the demand for a symbolic act of "decommissioning." Ambiguity is the key to successful negiotiation sometimes.
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Brendy Date: 13 Feb 00 - 09:03 PM Ach now, McGrath, and I do apologise for 'jumping the gun' in my last post but one, but really, the point is not about weapons, whether plastic or metal. Don't you see that the point is to get the rest of us talking about it in order to detract from the problem at hand. The copy of the Good Friday agreement that I have definately mentions not a February 12 deadline but, and I quote 5. Both Governments will take all necessary steps to facilitate the decommissioning process to include bringing the relevant schemes into force by the end of June. Let's keep things in perspective, and let's not start looking for scenarios that come straight out of a Stephen Segal movie. B. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: GUEST,Trevor Date: 13 Feb 00 - 09:14 PM Pipedreams. The provies will not disarm. They will procrastinate and waste time, bluff de Chastelain and everyone else, scream about the removal of the "Royal" Ulster Constabulary, yet continue to attend the "Royal Victoria" Hospital for treatment. They will gladly attend the Motor Show in the "King's" Hall. They will bleat and whinge about the need to protect the Nationalist People from the 130,00 guns in the hands of the Protestant People - the majority of which are farmers' shotguns, none of which have ever been proved to have been used in terrorist attacke. The law of averages would suggest that over 30 years, some at least would have turned up in investi=gations. None have. They say that they never signed up to anything. Quite correct, but why is it that this point is only being made now that theoir stooges in Sinn Féin are under pressure having been successfully ambushed by Trimble, who for once did the clever thing ! Now that the provies have the ball in their court, they haven't a clue as to what to do with it. They won't kick it into the Unionists' court! That would be "surrendering". "So long as we've got the ball, we can control the game." How nauseatinlgy childish can you get ? Trevor |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Brendy Date: 13 Feb 00 - 09:32 PM You took the words out of my mouth, Trevor. As we are discussing such things, I think we should at least have the guest of honour present The Good Friday Agreement. Go 'way off and read it, Trevor. You know what they say, "Sense comes to all creatures gradually" Oh, by the way, just refresh my mind, here. Who did the Unionists hand THEIR weapons in to after the 1956 campaign?. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: bflat Date: 13 Feb 00 - 09:45 PM There is no doubt that there has been a mighty injustice. i have one question and it is this? Why do I so often hear the Irish speak low of Jews? Is is the leaning of a powerful church or the heart of the man? No music has spoke to this. Correst me if need be. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 13 Feb 00 - 10:10 PM bflat my dear fellow WHAT IS THAT ALL ABOUT!!!!???? The majority of Israels representatives to the UN have been Irish Jews, educated in Dublin, and the Irish people who are my family and friends are proud of that fact, commonly joking that we get two voices at every vote, Hiram Hertzog and what ever other Irish man follws him. A little thread drift is OK, but stay in the realm of reason! Come to New York and see the Yiddish Sons of Erin march in the St. Patricks Day Parade, you will not hear any - as you call it - low talk, only high praise. Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Brendy Date: 13 Feb 00 - 10:19 PM Ditto Larry, above. But I think you are making a reference to the 'resemblance' of the Irish cause to the Palestinian cause. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Crowhugger Date: 13 Feb 00 - 10:46 PM What an education. As for an opinion, f****d if I know the right path. One mystery to me is how a culture, not just N. Ireland, but including her, finds peace when (please correct me if I'm wrong) every living soul has lived, eaten and breathed such Troubles. When I know the answer to that, I'll have an opinion about peace plans and the like. Here in Canada it has been a long time indeed since outright large scale bloodletting on our soil. Excluding violence against women, but that's another thread, maybe Dec. 6th. We've managed to do the gruesome work of war in faraway places for the favours of faraway powers. Otherwise, I would venture to say that our mosaic approach to heritage means that many of us born&bred Canucks without a strong connection to N. Ireland are easily overwhelmed by such deep and lasting divisions. Canada is only 100 years into our own tug of war with Quebec, but it isn't the same because Lower Canada (now Quebec, downstream along le Fleuve St-Laurent) and Upper Canada (now Ontario, upstream along the St. Lawrence River) were BOTH pawns in European land grabs. Then of course a not-so-fresh start in 1867. Speaking for myself and many people I know, 400 years of battle and hatred when the same God is shared is overwhelming and baffling. One thing though, is that Canadians of black decent sure know about 2nd class citizenry and deep, lasting grudges. Tough topic, what are the right next steps for the land of some of the world's most magical music. Incongruous... |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Brendy Date: 13 Feb 00 - 10:51 PM The right steps, Crowhugger, are the JUST steps. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: GUEST Date: 14 Feb 00 - 12:37 AM It is painful to see Ireland still struggling for what India, South Africa, and a dozen other colonies have already realized.
Why won't the Brit's let go???
Until they do, the IRA is a necessity. And it MUST stay armed. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: GUEST Date: 14 Feb 00 - 12:40 AM Please start a new thread.
This should be interesting.
How many Jews are part of the Mudcat? Given the liberal bent, my best guess is 30. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: GUEST,Trevor Date: 14 Feb 00 - 07:31 AM I quote you:- "of name calling that Trevor does, in speaking about faceless etc. (not entirely true, as many volunteers in the IRA are well know and outspoken)" Total and complete balderdash. Even the Army Council does not make collective statements in their own names. All statements are issued under the pseudonym "P. O'Neill" and directed from Dublin. Nobody knows what P. O'Neill looks like. He doesn't face the TV cameras as other leaders do. The Army Council do not hold Press Conferences, as other parties to the conflict do. Ordinary volunteers are not allowed to make public statements. The golden rule is "He wno knows says nothing, he who speaks out knows nothing." Referring to people as "faceless" is not name-calling in the type of English that I speak. If you take umbrage at the use of "gangsters" in this context, then how else can you describe bank robbers, train robbers, extortioners and protection racketeers ? Faced with international gangsterism on the part of the avuncular Samuel, the admission of guilt was tempered with the immortal words, "They may be ruthless bastards, but they're OUR ruthless bastards. " And that makes it all right? I don't think so. Trevor |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 14 Feb 00 - 08:04 AM Brother Trevor: In order to conduct the crime of war, empirial nations have always villified the enemy. Even in wars with as jsut a cause as one can emagine this happens. I remember, in your comment, the branding of Vietnamese fighting for their land as -gooks in black pajams - Japanese as - yellow and Japs - Arabs as towelheads, and all the other nonsense leveled at those our government wants to dehumanise in order to allow us not to empathise with those the nation wishes to kill, wether by napalm in the jungle, or the shoot to kill policy in occupied Ireland. I will not repete the long conversation that I had about US court cases that give lie to your description, however, I believe it is under the Bobby Sands post. In point of fact, when in active service, most soldiers have limits on their public speach for the sake of security. On the other hand, unlike the SAS assasins,(not name calling but the findings of the Stalker report) who after active service, their actions and records remain secret, ex-IRA volunteers, for example Joe Doherty, have been outspoken, even publicly making proposals that challenge IRA policy on spesific issues. I would remind you that the founder of Amnesty Internaitonal, who was deputy Sec. Gen. of the UN, was the former comander in chief of the IRA, Well, like the POW/MIA myths in the US, war breads myth and distortion, remember the fine book, the First Casualty. All the best Raising a glass to peace and reconcilliation and better understanding with time Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Crowhugger Date: 14 Feb 00 - 09:38 AM Brendy, "The right steps, Crowhugger, are the JUST steps." I agree with you. Totally. And what makes my head spin: Who gets to define "just" in each context: What is a just way to choose the people who will develop a just methods for deciding just processes to achieve and maintain a just peace? I'm not being a wise-ass here. It's human nature to dig in our heels the minute there's even a whiff of disrespect for our own interests. As soon as any process makes allowances for that, someone often feels disrepected or unjustly treated by having to make these allowances. Now let's say that somehow all this is fixed so that enough people are happy enough to agree upon the conditions for the future. The whole of society has every one of its interpersonal relationships evolved under hostility, whether within each family or with the local or the market etc. To take away the underlying emotional framework of a culture, good or bad, is to mess with an important identity. How is that to be mended and who will show the way? Who or what will serve as a lightning rod for frustration when "us and them" becomes "we"? Maybe South Africans can offer answers. To illustrate: I think that here in Canada, a lot of the anxiety over so-called free trade with the USA stemmed from the subtle but important problem of a common identity. USA-griping has long been a greater passion than even hockey. Now it is decreasing gradually while (some) politicians are trying to turn universal medicare into the new common identity. And with some success, too. But the transition is a slow one for those who have lived for generations loving-to-hate-the-USA. A slow but steady increase in loving-to-hate-Toronto and loving-to-hate-pequistes, westerners, poor people is proving quite divisive. I'm not for one second suggesting that Canada has a clue of the suffering since the Troubles, only that the vagaries of human nature are one constant that must be considered. $0.02. (I tried to use some italics...hope it works and I'm very sorry for the nuisance if it doesn't.) |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Brendy Date: 14 Feb 00 - 07:18 PM Yo there, Larry. Apropos your reference This might be it As for 'Who gets to define just*, well, Oh embracer of dark birds, I think it must really have been a hard road all of us have travelled if we have to start defining justice, never mind who is in charge of dispensing it. British justice was never anything to write home about. And that actually is a fact. According to the European Court of Human Rights it is a fact. I have said it before, and I'll say it again. For all British people who believe that their legislators can do no wrong, I extend my extreme pity. For they would willingly go into another's country at their government's behest, and try to subjugate the natives. That the Foreign Policy base of England down through the aeons has been territorial. And expansionist. Those kind of people who are proud of what their country did, and then who castigate the resistors and call them 'Terrorists' have indeed a strange sense of justice. Stay on your sofa, Trevor. Watch your big screen. And don't think about how others have it outside your window. As long as you're all right, you can sat and think whatever you want. You probably still believe in the need for a monarchy and all. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Crowhugger Date: 14 Feb 00 - 07:48 PM Brendy, re: "For all British people who believe that their legislators can do no wrong, I extend my extreme pity. For they would willingly go into another's country at their government's behest, and try to subjugate" Yup. How to deal with the descendants? They didn't start it, but the fight continues. For example, I'm 4 to 6 generations in North America, descended entirely from variously oppressed cultures: Welsh, Scots, African. So when the First Nations want their land back, where do I go? Or do I stay and fight? I like to think that if the FN come to take back this part of the land, I'd say fine, it's yours, my ancestors bullied you out of it, this is the least I can do. If they felt accommodating perhaps they'd charge reasonable rent. Tough to swallow after years of paying a mortgage. Let's say I swallow and move...to where? Africa? Slave merchants didn't exactly keep track of where each unit of cargo used to live. I don't mean to drift from the thread. I only mean to try my very best to understand what I've been reading within the context of my own experience. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Brendy Date: 14 Feb 00 - 08:19 PM Well, Crowhugger, we've hit the nub of it haven't we? You are talking about re-patriation. The only people I want out of Ireland are the British Army, and the institutions that keep it in place there. I think accommodations can be reached after that. I don't think that "shoving the British up Belfast Lough to where they came from" is a very practical solution. And the Republican Movement has never had such high ideals. Republicanism concerns the working classes; the unification thereof. The fact that every institution in the north of Ireland has been established in order to keep those very people apart shows how afraid the powers that be were of this potentiality. But I digress. My family, years ago, had some of their land confiscated. Those issues must be decided when the 'Truth and Re-conciliation Commission' (if ever there will be one) comes into being. We must not forget here, that we are barely on the first step of an understanding here, and losing sight of each objective on the way by introducing issues that should be aired in a different forum; like decommissioning for example, will only fog the step at hand. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: GUEST,Trevor Date: 14 Feb 00 - 10:33 PM Well, well, well, inOBU. May I quote you ? "I would remind you that the founder of Amnesty Internaitonal, who was deputy Sec. Gen. of the UN, was the former comander in chief of the IRA," You resurrect Seán Mc Bride, (son of Maude Gonne-Mc Bride) who famously declared that the only way to deal with the provies would be to put them up against a wall. Check the Irish Times archives for the precise time and date. And, by the way, the only IRA man you quote is ex-IRA, hardly, as you put it, among the ranks of " many volunteers in the IRA are well know and outspoken" I think you need to read with a more open mind and not swallow all the Republivan guff that their publicity machine spews forth to gullible foreigners. Talking about this machine, they have been strangely silent since Trimble mugged them last week. They have no answer. They were ambushed and they know it. Even the American Press who rolled out the red carpet for Adams et al. in the past are now beginning to see that the emperor has no clothes after all. Come off it. They're beat and they won't admit it. Trevor |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Brendy Date: 14 Feb 00 - 10:57 PM You sound like one of those gullible foreigners, Trevor. I am glad that you don't hold any position of power in your country; God help us all if you did. Incidentally, what possible interest can you have in something that really doesn't concern you? Why are you so intransigent in your views? Don't you wish to see peace come to Ireland, or are you too pre-occupied on who "wins" and who "loses"? Don't get all triumphal too quickly, Trev; I certainly wouldn't want to tempt fate at this early stage. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: GUEST,Crying child Date: 15 Feb 00 - 01:58 AM It's a bit like cockfighting. The two combatants are trying to tear lumps out of each other, because they don't know any better (see "Den" 11 Dec99 - well said). The people who stage-manage the whole thing are the politicians and the political activists, of all persuasions. The close observers, passionately interested, discussing which side should win and why - the academics who have read widely on the subject, met many of the main players so of course their own view carries so much more weight. Sorry to disappoint, but in real terms there are not that many of you. We the silent majority, that is to say any right-minded thinking person throughout the world, simply want it to stop. We abhor cockfighting. We know it won't stop because the combatants know no other way, but we hate the support it gets. But what we regret most of all are the lofty academics and armchair activists - the pontificators who can show you conclusively why their side should win. These are the ones who give credence to the shabby little affair. (We forgive the musicians who are in thrall to the romantic notions of the rebel songs we all love to sing with wistful expressions - if only the reality was, or had ever been, like that). Nobody wins as long as people are prepared to support terrorism. Taking a side in this issue is just another way of supporting terrorism. And I do believe that you need to have been physically affected by a terrorist's bomb before you can really know why - difficult from a cosy environment many miles away. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 15 Feb 00 - 02:32 AM Ah so much grist to the intelectual mill this late night! Where to begin? Well, let us spend a moment in Canada. This is not really off the thread, my dear Crowhugger. As our brother Brendy points out, the argument is not about who should stay and who should go home, other than people who draw pay from a government accross blue water, to shoot the origional inhabitants in order to impose a political policy. I work in Quebec on matters of Native rights, and what is wanted is soverienty and jursidiction over those matters, like hunting rights and fishing rights, which remove self determanation from origional Canadians. Now, those Canadaians who are gaining ecconomic power by the subjigation of native people and the destruction of native land and rivers say that it is too late to give the land back, however, what advocates for native rights and natives are saying is STOP TAKING IT, forget giving it back! Trevor, my brother, I would that you would read with a bit more care. I wrote that for matters of security, as with ANY army, there are limits on speach when on active duty. However, there is a lively exchange of ideas, some in conflict with current policy and some of that exchange very public, by ex-members of the IRA, so the concept of faceless etc. is not at all accurate. Much more accurate would be to call the SAS a faceless group of terrorists, as not only are they prohibited for life, from disclosing their actions, when their actions run afoul of British law, as with the Shoot to Kill assination policy, and the crown names a loyal Subject to investgate (commissioner John Stalker) and he in fact does his job and uncovers illegal actions, he is defamed and his career ruined and his report is religated to the dark resesses of the classified vault. That strikes me as much more permanent a state of facelessness. I do think we need the kind of light that the process of reconciliation in South Africa promises. I know many, who have forgiven wrongs in their hearts the way that I have. Yet, that forgiveness can only be meaningfull and more universal with a process of reconcilliation. That can only happen with an end to secrecy and an honest coming together to learn each others histories. By the way, Trevor, I felt it more than disingenous at the time, that McBride, whos father was put up against the wall, whould suggest the same to those who inherited his own fight. Also, much of what I know about the occupation of Ireland, I know, not from -Republivan guff that their publicity machine spews forth to gullible foreigners - but form my own observations as a photo journalist in Belfast, and what I gleened while living in the west of Ireland, and from the findings of international courts, whos opinions I read while working in a defense firm which represented Joe Doherty. As to singing sentimental republican songs, anyone who has heard my band knows that I do not sing republican songs in that context. I have lost enough friends in that conflict to have no sentimental feelings about it. If I sing a republican song, it is in a context that I take much more serriously. I have sung such at memorials or small gatherings of family and friends, for dear freinds who lost brothers and sons during the 1981 hunger strike, and I assure you, little of how I feel was learned from such songs, though a few occationaly express the loss some us us feel when we remember remarkable men and women who should have had better opportunity to make social change than that which England and NATO offered them. Lets hope we all keep walking towards peace and justice, remembering the words of Dr. King, that - the arch of history bends inevitably towards justice. All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: GUEST,Crying child Date: 15 Feb 00 - 03:25 AM Maybe the key to the intellectual truth lies in the little carelessnesses - "the process of reconciliation in South Africa" being a good example. Now that the ANC have proven to the world that you can achieve power through terrorism, can anybody who actually lives there (or goes regularly as I have done over the years) tell me who has benefitted from the changes? What I see is that everyone has lost something, those at the bottom of the economic chain being the greatest losers. Yarpie has simply adjusted his social and commercial comforts as he has always been able to do. This is just another example of how the intellectual interest, having prevailed on the side of the terrorist, turns away and assumes naively that all is now right with the world. Whoops, I'm starting to become intellectually involved. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 15 Feb 00 - 02:16 PM My dear Crying: Although I do not condone practices such as necklacing by the ANC, in fact I have spoken about this with IRA and INLA members who are also shocked by this example of what can only be referred to as war crime, however, do I take from your comment that you see the ANC as the victemizer in the South African equation? Am I missreading your point, that you think things were better under Apartide? If so, I believe you well make my point that often the victemizer casts the victem in the role of agressor when the victem fights back. Dont forget that slave owners like Thomas Jefferson spoke of the chains of slavery that they bore at the hands of a rather liberal English government. Humans have a strange ability to see themselves as victems as they do the most terrible things. Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: GUEST,Trevor Date: 15 Feb 00 - 02:53 PM Thank you, inOBU, I couldn't agree with you more. For "Human" read "provie". I quote you:- ". Humans have a strange ability to see themselves as victems as they do the most terrible things." Tervor |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Cara Date: 15 Feb 00 - 03:36 PM CAN WE PLEASE START A PART II THREAD SO I CAN CONTINUE READING THIS? See "Today in Ireland's History-II" |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: alison Date: 16 Feb 00 - 01:39 AM today in Irelands history - 2 |
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