Traditional singers altering songs?

Subject: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 03:11 PM

Some of us had fun on the 'Bertsongs' thread a few months ago, identifying instances in which the great A. L. Lloyd had tinkered with - or in some cases altered drastically - various songs from traditional sources. What I'd like to know is: have we firm evidence of traditional (or 'source') singers doing the same kind of thing? Did Harry Cox use the broadsides he possessed to fill out texts learned aurally? Did Walter Pardon or Joseph Taylor improve the melodies of their songs? We might infer as much, but I'm looking for specifics.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 03:24 PM

American folklorist Robert D. Bethke, who studied under Ken Goldstein and collected songs in the Adirondacks, told me the following in an email within the last couple of years. This was after I had told him about Ermina Pincombe, a traditional singer I have come to know lately who took old song fragments and melodies she remembered from childhood and fleshed them out with other sources:

"Ermina's life-long inclination to search out and to complete texts for pieces learned from a significant female family relative is highly typical of documented women traditional singers in regional US, including Almeda Riddle in Ozarks, women in Appalachia, and elsewhere. Many publications confirm this gender inclination in commentary, and I believe there are various academic articles/book chapters that speak to it, by feminist folklorists."

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 03:28 PM

It is part of the folk process. Where do you think all those songs deriving from the 'The Unfortunate Rake' came from (for example)?

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 03:30 PM

In fact, that's a pretty good model of the creative process in general--you take bits and pieces of one kind or another and fashion them into something that is "complete".

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 03:37 PM

"Where do you think all those songs deriving from the 'The Unfortunate Rake' came from (for example)?"

As I said, I was asking about actual examples, not inferences (at one time people seemed to assume that song variants were the result of poor memory and/or 'Chinese Whispers'). Dave's contribution is the kind of thing I'm looking for.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 03:40 PM

Do you think these issues could be overexamined sometimes?

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 03:58 PM

Overexamining things is one way of acquiring knowledge! One man's meat!

Brian. Here's one for you. In the late 60s, early 70s Jim Eldon and I found a veritable nest of singers in a small village on the East Riding coast. One of the interesting things was that different singers could sing us vastly different versions of the same songs and this was from singers living practically next door to each other for most of their lives. An interesting example arose that seems to suit your criterion. We had 3 different versions of 'An Acre of Land' (an offshoot of Child 2), that is, different tunes, different choruses and different run-downs of items in the crop growing/production cycle. After a few weeks 2 of the singers who had sizable repertoires were getting on famously, not having been aware of each other's singing previously. Of course we went back to record the female singer a week or so later and found she had extra verses in her version which she later admitted she had nicked off her male neighbour. All 3 versions can be heard on the Yorkshire Garland website, but the quality of recording is rather poor due to our cheap original equipment.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 03:59 PM

Here's a brief example: California 'composed' by Bill Jackson in California, a re-written stanza of Root Hog or Die.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: treewind
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:12 PM

Wasn't Gordon Hall notorious for adding to his songs when he heard versions of them that had other verses?

Anahata

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:18 PM

I believe Jim Carroll is on holiday.
which would explain his out of character reticence, regarding WalterPardon.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: KathWestra
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM

Hi Brian,
You asked specifically about U.K. source singers, but if you want to broaden your query to include U.S. tradition-bearers, you might want to be in touch with Jean Ritchie (you can PM her under her Mudcat name, Kytrad). She grew up in a family of traditional singers in Kentucky and, as you know, went on to make a major place for herself in the folk revival. If you haven't yet had this conversation with Jean, she would be a great person for you to chat with about what she herself has done with some of her many traditional family songs.
Kathy

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:27 PM

>Do you think these issues could be overexamined sometimes?<

On the contrary, Brian has drawn attention to an issue which has very rarely been explored; which is not whether variations in folk songs occur, but how and why individual singers have introduced variations.

Dave Ruch's example of a singer "filling out" a fragment learned from a relative by reference to a printed source may be a more common practice than collectors have acknowledged.
Didn't Carpenter encourage Bell Duncan to come up with fuller versions of ballads by showing her examples in Child?
I think I've seen in Henry Burstow's 'Reminiscences' that he looked out for 'better' or more complete versions of songs he already knew by listening to other singers or buying broadsides.
Mike Yates recollected his surprise at spotting some songbooks on the floor when he visited Fred Jordan.

In general though we have very few examples of songs recorded in the same family or community at different times to allow any sort of diachronic study of how songs and tunes have actually been altered. The Copper family do show some quite subtle variations but in their case the existence of a family songbook probably stabilised the older versions so that their particular tradition was a very conservative one.

My own overwhelming impression on listening to older recordings is how much accents and speech rhythms have changed so that when, for example, Roger Hinchliffe sings the same songs as his father sang he is still singing from deep within a long tradition but in a different voice which brings that tradition into our own time.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: RTim
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM

With regard to The Copper Family - I think Bob certainly used other song books to "Pad" out songs he heard his own father sing - I seem to recall mention of using some of Williams's texts from Folk Song of the Upper Thames - Rose In June (or Love in June) being a case in point. All my points are totally off the top of my head, with NO checking of references. Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:50 PM

I suspect that there's a difference between soeone who's part of a tradition tinkering with songs, and someone who's a student of the tradition doing the same.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:12 PM

People who sing pop songs work with a copyrighted text and melody. They may, of course, deviate from it. Some common reasons are a) failure to learn words or music properly at first, b) forgetting words or music with time, or c) desire to 'improve' or expand text or melody. People who sing songs traditionally are subject to the same agents of change.

When we hear an 8-verse song and the 6th verse of it has only 2 lines while all the others have 4, we suspect 'a' or 'b' above. When we hear a someone sing a new verse or new line in an old song, possibly with reference to a recent event, we suspect 'c'.

The traditional singers I know come in 3 kinds: 1) those who sing every song exactly as they heard it and would never change a word, 2) those who alter songs rarely (perhaps by localising a place name or varying the melody slighty), or 3) those who sometimes treat a song as an architect treats a beautiful old barn that his client would like to inhabit.

The great Ozark singer, Almeda Riddle, sang 'sWord' in 'Bingen on the Rhine' though, we can well suspect that she knew the W in sword is silent. So many place names have been localised in so many folk songs that there's no need to give an example. The great Paddy Tunney is said by many who knew him well to have made up the much-loved verse in 'The Green Fields of Canada' that includes the phrase, 'the fiddlers who flaked out the old mountain reels'. Jean Ritchie's father was the schoolteacher in Viper, Kentucky. He had many ballads with much fuller texts than collectors typically found in the Appalachians. Why would the schoolteacher not have the best texts? He could read and had access to books.   

Singers take pride in their songs. Some because they are 'exactly the way a forebearer sang it'; some because they are 'the original', some because 'they are from here'; and some because they are 'different' or 'best'.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: sharyn
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:37 PM

Can't get you the specifics right now, Brian, but I have a recording of a Scottish traditional singer who was questioned about a verse in a ballad. She said she knew the verse, but didn't like it and didn't sing it. I'm pretty sure the song was "Andrew Lammie" and the singer one of the Stewarts -- Margaret? Would look it up, but left hand and foot are broken just now.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:34 PM

Brian,
There are numerous examples of what you are after.
Fred Jordan sang plenty of songs he got from people in the revival.
Roger mentioned above only started singing after Frank had died, at the instigation of Ian Russell who recorded his dad.
Bob Copper was a collector and writer.
All of the traditional singers who now sing at the festivals have learnt material from sources out of their own tradition. Will Noble sings songs from the Haxey Hood game. He picked up some of his songs from the radio.
The Scottish travellers almost all augmented their repertoires from books.
By the way, Matthew, it was Bell Robertson, not Bell Duncan. Duncan was Greig's fellow collector. An understandable slip.

An interesting example is the Whitby version of 'The Tailor's Britches' from the singing of Arthur Woods, currently being sung by John Greaves and Martin Carthy. An important bearer of the tradition, Arthur probably rewrote this excellent version himself. the only other versions known are 4 fragments from the south coast, not published until after Arthur had been recorded.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 07:07 AM

Actually I did mean Bell Duncan of Lambhill, Aberdeenshire who was a major source of ballads for James Madison Carpenter. However I was quite wrong to suggest that Carpenter may have encouraged her to supplement her repertoire from the Child collection; instead he claimed that she "sang sixty-five Child ballads with tunes, never a single reference to manuscript". However he did have some doubts about some of her sources. Julia Bishop in her excellent essay 'Bell Duncan: 'The greatest ballad singer of all time'? in Ian Russell and David Atkinson (eds.) 'Folk Song: Tradition, Revival, and Re-Creation', Elphinstone Institute, Aberdeen, 2004, pp.393-421 examines Carpenter's claims.

Julia Bishop concluded that "Ballad books in particular appear to have been an important source both for [Bell Duncan] and for her mother and/or the other sources, direct and indirect, of her repertoire."

As far as Julia Bishop is concerned the use of printed sources at some stage in the transmission in no way compromises Bell Duncan's status as an important ballad singer, although in Carpenter's eyes and in terms of the scholarship of his era (1920's and 30's) this would have reduced her "authenticity".

The interplay between printed, manuscript and oral sources within folk tradition is fascinating and complex and I think Brian has raised an important point about how traditional singers recreated and reinvented their material. I personally would subscribe to the "grandfather's axe" view how of traditions evolve:-
"This is my grandfather's axe; I've given it a new blade, and my father gave it a new shaft, but it's still my grandfather's old axe."

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 07:18 AM

Sabine Baring Gould states in his book (or the edition I read) somewhat like:

"This was such a pretty song and it was a shame it was so short, so I added a couple of verses"

Waley Waley - since you ask.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: pavane
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 07:39 AM

In his introduction to The Isle of France (about a shipwrecked convict), Nic Jones mentioned that Cecil Sharp had fleshed out a collected fragment to be singable.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 08:33 AM

while gamekeepers lie sleeping,the version that Bob Roberts sang,was it added to by Bob Roberts.
as a singer,What matters to me is a good tune and a good set of words,does it matter whether the song was altered by a revivalist or a traditional singer,or does it matter at all?.
I am of the opinion that songs have always been altered[though without travelling through time],Icant prove it.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 08:50 AM

Perhaps we should make some base distinctions? Song altered by a traditional singer UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF A COLLECTOR/REVIVALIST (e.g. Geogrge Dunn supplied with broadsides by Roy Palmer, Joseph Taylor entering FSS competitions). Songs adapted by a non-student traditional singer(Harry Cox, Walter Pardon) or by a student traditional singer (Bob Roberts, Bob Copper, Bob Lewis). Songs adapted by a traditional singer/professional musician (Charlie Bate) (first define traditional singer! - first define professional!) Songs altered by collector/revivalist (Sabine Baring-Gould, Cecil Sharp, Bert Lloyd, Martin Carthy, Nic Jones).

Ultimately, surely the interest is in where transition takes places, and why, and whether the listener is being decieved - intentionally or otherwise?

Tom

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: tradpiper
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 09:00 AM

Hi all. I am a traveller. I learnt many of my songs round the yog Iron. many from old cassettes, and from ballad books. With the digital age I can actually find the correct lyrics on-line, a great bonus.
So from my point of view I would do my very best to understand and reproduce the words and tune that i heard. I would not modify them , but try to be faithful to the original rendition that attracted me.
there is one particular song i have not got, and would really like to find. Its about the old ways of the traveller dying out. If that rings a bell, please contact me.

An amusing twist I found in a printed version of Spancil hill. the correct lyrics are; an old horse fair in county Clare' was rendered as ' a hairy ass fair ' I mean! this same version twisted the lyrics in other places as well.

i encountered many such changes over the years, too many to mention. and im sure i have contributed to this, with misheard lyrics passed on!!

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 10:12 AM

Wasn't Gordon Hall notorious for adding to his songs when he heard versions of them that had other verses?

Anahata

It wasn't just "when he heard versions of them that had other verses", Gordon actively sought out additional verses to fill out or complete the versions of songs that he sung; for Gordon, a song could never be too long! I was one of a number of people in Sussex that Gordon used to obtain more information about and verses for his songs.
When the phone went and a voice said something like, "Hello Vic, Gordon here. Now, Lord Bateman or Bakeman or Buchan or Baker or Beichan....." you knew that you were in for a) a long phone call and b) some searches through you book and record shelves to find out what he was after. And as he sang most weeks at our folk club, you could hear the 'before and after' effect of the interesting way he added the extra material, sometimes adapted by him to fit his particular style.

Ther last time I spoke to him not long before his last admission to hospital, he had phoned to say, " Now, a ballad that I really like is Hind Horn, but the only tune that I can find for it, I don't like. Can you help me out?" Well, off the top of my head I couldn't. But in the week that he died I received an album with a field recording of a fantastic version of Hind Horn with a great melody sung by an old Canadian lumberman, Joe Estey.

All I could do was to learn the song and sing it at Gordon's memorial concert in Horsham.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: romany man
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 11:40 AM

Tradpiper, Im a romany and learned direct from me dadus, an such, you should know sometimes the same song will have a different tune, or have a verse added or took out, does that make it wrong, dont think so, folk tunes is just that, a song thats sung by the locals, i was a appleby this year an heard several songs i knowed but they didnt sound the same, on asking most said well thats the way i learned it, as it is. So surely any song of the folk type comes to life that way

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 12:17 PM

This is all good stuff, and thanks for many interesting contributions. Liam's Brother's characterisation of differing attitudes amongst traditional singers towards improving their material rings very true. I suspect that some of the mishearings / Mondegreens that tradpiper refers to were perpetuated precisely because singers in L.B.'s category (1) consciously decided to leave their texts well alone even when certain phrases were apparently nonsensical.

On the other hand, I can think of instances in ballad tradition where a major shift - e.g. a change in a the gender of a significant character - has occurred at some point during transmission, with a marked effect on the emotional or moral weight of the ballad. It's hard to imagine that a change like that would happen by accident. But, as I said before, inference is one thing, direct evidence is another.

Given that at least some singers always seem to have altered consciously their material, it isn't really surprising that the likes of Gordon Hall or Fred Jordan, in contact with the folk revival and also with access to a wider range of printed sources than their forebears, should have wished to improve the texts they sang. It's even more interesting that a singer like Bell Duncan might have been doing the same, even before Carpenter arrived on her doorstep. I seem to remember Steve Jordan, in his excellent workshop on Richard Hall (one of George Gardiner's sources) mentioning that Hall was learning material from 'Songs of the West' in the 1900s. And, when Mike Yates observed Fred Jordan's collection of songbooks, was this before or after Fred had become a guest artist at revival venues?

romany man: all you say is true, and it doesn't "make it wrong". I'm just curious to know how all those versions came about.

Keep 'em coming!

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 12:28 PM

What an interesting thread this is - for a variety of different reasons.

To 'tradpiper' and 'romany man',

I'm getting an impression that love of, and interest in, the the old music and songs is still alive among your people and may even be getting a new lease of life through the new digital technology. Is that anywhere near the truth?

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 12:29 PM

Folks do what folks do. Mishear, fill the gaps, customise for the moment and some are sticklers for accuracy. Folk music is a minefield for pedants. And a rich source of pedant antics.

And anyway didn't Stan Hugill say as much: shanties evolved to amuse and assist. I can remember going round the Worcester Porcelain works and the painters (all women) sang for amusement and you could hear them re-doing verses and laughing. Crude or pointed at bosses I couldn't tell. But it entertained them, and the concept alone entertained me for all of the minute, until we were shooed on. I presume the songs were popular fair known to the assemblage but the process was edifying.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 12:35 PM

Whilst we are mentioning the magnificent Gordon Hall, we ought to mention the two CD albums of his that are available:-

GORDON HALL "Good Things Enough" (2000) on Country Branch - Contact Jim WARD

and

GORDON & MABS HALL "As I Went Down To Horsham" (2008) on Veteran - Contact John HOWSON

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM

I've just remembered that something that I wrote in 1999 on the Musical Traditions website is relevant to this thread. It concerns another of my great heroes, the Scots traveller singer, Davy Stewart. I was reviewing the re-release of Davy's Topic vinyl album on CD on the Greentrax label and I said:-

For those of us who wanted to believe passionately in an oral tradition, here was the best living example. Davie was fully of the tradition and yet he created within it and that's how the new versions developed. I remember once at Kinross hearing him delivering another of his truly passionate pieces, Bogie's Bonny Belle. His knowledgeable audience was hearing that Belle and her tinker partner were selling "pots and pans and paraffin lamps" so they knew they were on the last verse, but Davie was enjoying himself too much to stop, so we had three more verses speculating about what else they might have been selling; pegs, paper flowers, and expanding on the tinker's ware to augment the tilly pans and ladles. The electric atmosphere, the look on those listening faces is something that I'll never forget. I feel sure that there's another example on this album. He is singing The Jolly Beggar in Hamish's kitchen.   Now, I'll wager that some folklorist has told Davie that there is speculation that the central character in this ballad is King James IV, 'the Gaberlunzie King'. Is that the case? Let's put that in. (sound clip) I may be wrong, but I don't think any version actually puts the king's name in. Just to top this off, this version ends with a final verse to suggest that it might be a good point to break off the recording session and have a cup of tea!

It wasn't just that extra verses appeared within songs, the position of the words against the melody changed with every performance and if extra words or phrases appear, then the melody will just have to do what it can to fit in. His version of The Overgate was similar in structure to Belle Stewart's, but Belle's usually came out about the same. With Davie you knew it was going to be different each time. (sound clip)

If you would read the full review and listen to the sound clips you will to click on http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/d_stewar.htm

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: GUEST,giles earle
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:24 PM

Duncan & Linda Williamson's collection of folk tales 'A Thorn in the King's Foot' gives Duncan's versions of Thomas the Rhymer and Tam Lin, with notes in the Appendix of how he reached his narrative. Fascinating stuff.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:55 PM

I am not sure if I can shed any light on the debate, but it's an interesting one. Over the years, I have recorded a great number of traditional singers both in the UK and the US, so can speak with some insider knowledge. When I record a singer, a standard question is always 'Where did you learn that song?'.

Can I also say that it's a great pleasure to know that members of the travelling community are contributing to this debate, knowing the strong cultural and oral heritage they possess.

Traditional or source singers are human beings like us. They are not born with a repertoire in their heads. They hear songs, they like songs, they learn and sing songs. They forget bits and embellish bits. They get their songs from oral tradition, books, recordings, letters, and now by Internet, email, fax and answerphone. But hey, who doesn't?

However, I suspect the kernel of Brian's original posting is to ask, when we hear a performance from a singer, whether the words have been passed on through 'pure' oral tradition or consciously learnt from some other later source. My experience has been that many singers that we call traditional have learnt some of their repertoire from sources other that oral tradition. Mention has been made of Gordon Hall, whom I recorded on one occasion, and it is well known that he supplemented his versions from his collection of broadsides. His version of Lord Becket (17 and a half minutes, 3 fags and a double whisky) got longer every time you heard it. He also sang me great versions of Henry Martin and the Jolly Butchers, exactly as collected from Henry Burstow 90 years previously, so presumably learnt by him from a printed source.

The lovely Devon singer Charlie Hill often supplemented his fragmentary versions by getting the words from friends and other sources. For example, he knew a few verses of 'The Capable Wife' so I gave him a complete set and next time I saw him he was singing it all the way through. Isn't that what we all do? When I learnt the music hall song from 'Every Morning' from Charlie, I deliberately changed a line to make it say 'Gloucester market', to turn it into an old Gloucestershire song!

The traditional singer Archer Goode in Gloucestershire used books to supplement many of his songs.

Ray Driscoll learnt some songs from me but when he sang them they came out differently. The Gloucestershire Poacher got somehow relocated to Ireland!

The only issue is when a singer pretends or leads one to believe that what they are singing is straight from oral tradition. I'm not hinting at direct deception, but an unspoken assumption on the part of the performer. I don't think there have been many singers that do this with malice aforethought, but I have known singers to be very coy about their sources, to preserve the aura. It sounds better to say 'I have known this songs for years and can't remember where I got it' than to say 'I learnt this from a Martin Carthy CD.'

Anyway, enough rambling on. This is a good thread and a question worth asking.


Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 03:03 PM

Creative improvisation in performance ('Oral Formulaic Theory', anyone?) is fascinating in itself; I wonder to what extent that kind of thing overlaps with conscious 'improvement' or deliberate changes in plotline?

No-one's had much to say about tunes yet....
'GUEST' at 12.27 was me, by the way.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 03:03 PM

Matthew,'Didn't Carpenter encourage Bell Duncan to come up with fuller versions of ballads by showing her examples in Child?'

Profuse apologies. I suppose the name 'Carpenter' here is a clue to how wrong I was. I was so taken up with the idea that Greig had done the same with Bell Robertson that my eyes simply saw Carpenter as Greig. I should know the Bell Duncan article off by heart, the book is practically next to my computer.

Another feature of the influence collectors can have on source singers is the source singer's great desire to please collectors. Here we must remember that some of these singers had kept these songs in their hearts for decades without anyone, even their own families, taking an interest. All of a sudden someone starts to take an interest and wants to record them for posterity. Several collectors (Baring Gould for one) claim that, when asked for a specific song, singers have actually made up a song on the spot just to oblige, or have gone away and actively sought out a version for when the collector comes back. I have met with this myself.

Also I've come across an example similar to the Davy stewart one given above. It concerns Child 295B, which in my belief is a concoction sent to Child by Baring Gould. Baring Gould spliced together 2 broadside ballads, one of them quite common, Sally and her True Love Billy/ The Sailor from Dover. Naturally when the early American collectors came across versions of this (which were numerous)they put it under the Child title 'The Brown Girl'. Ironically one of the later collected Kentucky versions actually mentions a 'Brown Girl'. One can easily imagine the scenario. Early collector approaches singer and records quite ordinary version of Sally and Billy and is enthusiastically told by the collector that this is a version of an important Child ballad called 'The Brown Girl'. Twenty years later another collector comes along to record same singer or one of the family only to find the same song with a 'Brown Girl' mentioned in it!

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Greg B
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 03:21 PM

The "Leaving of Liverpool" is a good example.

Lots of folks about New York will glare at you if you sing
"my darling when I think on thee (rhymes with "united we will
be") in the chorus. They'll go to great lengths to tell you
that "That's not the way Bill Doerflinger collected it from
Dick Maitland at Sailor's Snug Harbor in Staten Island..."

Then they'll shore that all up with the reasoning that "nobody
said thee by the time Maitland heard it from an old Liverpool
tar." These latter are clearly those who didn't have grandparents
from the West Midlands of England...or haven't been to Amish
country in the US. And--- anyone who read the King James Bible
in that era, saw plenty of "thee's".

C.F.: the common colloquialism that "All fishermen are liars,
except me and thee, and sometimes I doubt thee."

Another (IMHO rather silly) argument is that "rhyming wasn't
so important back then." Well, then how come the rest of the
song rhymes.

A great deal of work to justify singing a line that sounds
like crap, in the chorus yet and as the last word of same, yet.

The most likely scenario is that Maitland or his "source" (does
a source have a source?) either mis-sang it or mis-heard it.

Which to me is a good example of "trad singer alteration," since
the likelihood of the song surviving much longer in the "old
tradition" with that busted last line is about the same as it
having done so in the "new tradition."

Those who put the obvious rhyme back have probably restored the
song to the original, not altered it. On the other hand, Maitland
and/or his "source" were quite likely the source of what is,
if we use common sense, a "breakage."

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 03:49 PM

Tradsinger wrote:-
His version of Lord Becket (17 and a half minutes, 3 fags and a double whisky) got longer every time you heard it.

Two Things:-
1](17 and a half minutes, 3 fags and a double whisky)
In my experience, it was nearly always a treble gin made up to a pint with tonic water.

2] He also sang me great versions of Henry Martin and the Jolly Butchers, exactly as collected from Henry Burstow 90 years previously, so presumably learnt by him from a printed source.
I never heard Gordon talk about this, but after he died I was interviewing Bob Lewis (partly for album notes, partly for a Musical Traditions interview which is on-line at http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/b_lewis.htm and Bob showed me a large book of photocopies of songs written out in Henry Burstow's handwriting which had been passed on to Bob after Gordon died. I don't think that Bob knew where Gordon got these photocopies from, but I was able to check the handwriting against a letter from Henry Burstow to Lucy Broadwood (which is in Shirley Collins' possession) to confirm that it was Henry's writing.
I think I remember reading somewhere (probably in Vic Gammon's unpublished thesis) that Lucy Broadwood got Henry Burstow to write songs out for her, so this may be the original source.

There's a photo I took of Bob holding this book along with the article on the MT site.

There is also a long interview with Gordon Hall dating from 1991 on the Musical Traditions website at http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/g_hall.htm

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:04 PM

Gordon Hall, magnificent?
I heard him sing Lord Randall at the national,sorry, I beg to differ.
not my kind of singer at all,I would rather listen to A L Lloyd singig the Two Magicians,AL lloyd was a singer who could bring a story to life,even if he was a revival singer.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:36 PM

Gordon had a unique style. Like marmite, you either loved it or hated it, but there is no doubt that he had a strong resonant voice, great breath control and very good pitch over a long song. His singing worked for me, but obviously not for the Captain. But it would be boring if we all liked the same thing.

Anyway, I fear we are going off topic.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: tradpiper
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:55 PM

The song I am after, 'the old ways of the traveller are dyin'. I heard it once, . In the morning yer man had moved on. Its clearly a traditional travellers song. So were I to find the words written down, would I remember the melody he sung it to. ? To some extent.
I read music so I would hope to have the dots. So if I learnt it from the printed page, combined with my memory how would it go were I to meet him again and we sung it together?
Firstly I would merge with his singing. I would copy' phrasing, inflexion, and tone of voice, to blend in. So the version I sung before hand, would be the template, the ground upon which I would base my rendition. but its quite likely that there would be a number of different lyrics due to the different sources. I would of course ask him to tell me the words to write down. Of course a recording would be great, but that kind of thing was unavailable when I learnt many of my songs. it would be the words writ out and the melody remembered.

So come on !, anyone know the song? Its been bugging me the last , maybe 14yrs!

Some songs have missing verses, for some reason a verse is lost. Finding a missing verse is like gold dust to me, let alone a missing song.!

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:17 PM

tradpiper - the only song that comes to mind from what you seek is "Freeborn Man" by Ewan MacColl - not trad, but now fifty years old.


"Winds of change are blowing,,, old ways are going,
Your travelling days will soon be over."

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:17 PM

It's not the Ewen Macoll one is it?

The buying and selling the old fortune telling

Fairwell to the tents and the old caravans
The tinker the gypsy the travelling man
..

You can tell I don't know it. Lots of people know it.

There's a bylaw to say you must go on your way
And another that says....

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:21 PM

Tradpiper wrote:-
The song I am after, 'the old ways of the traveller are dyin'. I heard it once

Could the song that you are after be the one that starts:-

The old ways are changing you cannot deny
The day of the traveler's over
There's nowhere to gang and there's nowhere to bide
So farewell to the life of the rover.

in which case it is Ewan MacColl's Thirty Foot Trailer which is available on this site at
http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=2359

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM

It's "The Thirty Foot Trailer" by Ewan Macoll to me. You can find the words easily on the Internet plus various versions on Youtube. Let us know if this is the song you are looking for.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:28 PM

How did 'to me' get in my last posting? Sloppy typing. Sorry.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM

tradpiper, I've copied your question and the above replies to a separate thread, Lyr Req: ways of the traveller dying out, so more people will see it.

(The above replies are what came to mind for me, too.)

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: tradpiper
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 06:23 PM

I reckon thats got to be it folks. My eternal thanks to you for helping me out there.... Ahh the wonders of the internet! Right, now you've done your good turn for the day, let us return to the question in hand. My apologies for highjacking the discussion for a moment... it was a spontaneous thing.

But when you say traditional, how do you define tradition? for example if its 50yrs old, then it could easily be in its third generation of being passed down. I heard it sung round the fire by a travelling man with the wagons and mares around us.
Ive heard the name, Ewan Macoll, and have just read up on his works. Impressive. I will buy this album, sure if only to get this song. thanks again....

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 06:54 PM

Old cowboy Del Bray (possibly Dave Bray) surely did sing:

Near Medicine Bow where I was born,
There was a fair maid dwellin',
Made all the boys ride saddle sore,
And her name was Barbara Allen...

Did he put it together. I have no idea.

We were in a bar in Cheyenne, Wyoming -- the summer of 1962. He saw my guitar case and we went across the street to a rather rundown hotel room we had taken for the night. (This was across from the train station as I remember it.) I was 20 years old, underage, but we bought a 6-pack and shared it back in the room. Then we swapped some songs. I asked Del if he knew any cowboy songs. He took my guitar and sang what I called "Cowboy's Barbara Allen." He sang it one time and I wrote down what I had heard. Quite some time later, I re-discovered that paper in my case---and I fleshed it out fom versions I knew before. Where this western version differed from the usual renditions, I had written these glaring differences down, but not the surrounding words.

The song wound up being at least 75% Del Bray, but I admit it had to be finished by me.

The song is in the DT. Recently, Joel Mabus, an old friend, recorded the song. Quite a few words were different from the way I generally did it. The verses about "Do you remember in yonder town...
You gave a toast to all the girls, but slighted Barbara Allen." Those verses were NOT in Del Bray's singing of it---so they are not in my version.

...and the "thorny briar" and the "rose" mingling on top of the grave's "marker rocks" --- This was because, on the plains of the American west, rocks were often piled on the graves to keep wolves from digging up the dead.

I'll be back later with some other songs.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:25 AM

"Made all the boys ride saddle sore,
And her name was Barbara Allen..."

I recently came across a North American version of 'Lord Randal' in which the bequest to Randal's sister was not the usual "horse and saddle", but "mules and wagons". Another example of deliberate adaptation of an old song for a new environment, making it more familiar and 'homely'.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: tradpiper
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 06:00 AM

For me, the tradition is a living entity. The song, 30ft trailer,[ AKA the Aold ways are dying, is it not? ]Was written by one of our own. A man who understood the ways of our people. Whether it was written 50yrs ago or 500 it is a part of the stream. and it is written and sung in A traditional style.IMO

I personally dont write extra verses to a song, that perhaps is a bit too short, I just repeat a verse. But perhaps in future I might try it out.For me,the beauties of singing traditional ballads, which are all I know, Is that;1 they are great songs, 2 they are often songs that sing of thing we can relate to. 3 that my friends and fellow travellers also know many of these songs To sing them together when we meet up and pull in to a fresh site is a great feeling. To write new words kind of defeats part of that, until/unless they are generally adopted.

There are new folk songs that are making the rounds, written these past years. Adopted by travellers and folk musicians alike, they sing of the theft of the land. Freedom and oppression, age old motifs that defy time and place. Long may they do so.

I am not an academic, but I have great respect for those that are. Together we can preserve and refresh the traditional music that we know and love.

Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 06:23 AM

tradpiper wrote: "But when you say traditional, how do you define tradition?"

We may not want to go there - AGAIN!! But it is relevant to this discussion. Try this for size:

Traditional can be defined by expectation - that is the audience expectation. "It is traditional that so&so happens." "So & so is traditionally sung here." etc." NB: this has nothing to do with "Folk" - within the context, Heartbreak Hotel & Yesterday can be traditional. And being traditional doen not make it "Folk".

The problem is related to the fact that you have great difficulty defining "folk" without incorporating the context of performance - but now we're into thread drift!

Tom