BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Janie
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:41 AM

Sorry Lox,

I thought it in one of your posts that a statement was made to the effect that distinguishing between blame and responsibility was nothing but semantics, but I was reading through the last 50-75 posts pretty quickly and it appears I misattributed to you.

Ain't gonna go back now, though, to see who did post it:>)

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Janie
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:03 AM

Amos, I would go a little further with that last statement of yours. Victims of sexual assault also often blame themselves for having been raped, making the same mistake in thinking that confuses responsibility (and just what one is responsible for) and blame that others make when they consider the victim to be partly to blame. It is essential to their healing that they shed any notion that they are responsible for the actions of the rapist.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:06 AM

Janie,

Before my discussion with Amos began, I stated that it was wrong to say that a woman may be deemed blameless yet be held responsible if she dresses or behaves a particular way.

I pointed out that this distinction is false.

Since then I have attempted to illustrate in what way it is false.

This was in response to posts which suggested that a woman who dresses or behaves in a particular way, though not to blame, has to accept some responsibility for being raped.

I have gone on to illustrate that the definition of "responsibility" which is relevant to this thread is pretty much interchangeable with the word blame, while those which are not interchangeable with the word blame are not relevant to this thread.

In the context of this thread, if we speak english, we must choose whether we think a woman is partially to blame/responsible for a rape committed against her or not.


Amos's comments do not help us get any further on this question, as they merely illustrate that according to definiton 1 on my list, all women are responsible being in a situation where they have been raped regardless of what they wear or how they behave, as they might not have been raped if they had decided not to be in that circumstance on that occasion - eg a female office worker, who is chose to be in the office at that time, a jogger in the park who wouldn't be in the park if she hadn't decided that that was where she wanted to jog, or a girlfriend discovering for the first time that she is in an abusive relationship.

I know and understand that Amos is not satying that they are at fault. I have read his posts and identified his point very cleaarly.

However, his contribution does not help us in any way to form a view on whether or not some women bring rape upon themselves.

In other words, it is not relevant to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 11:08 AM

Well Lox...your sense of the topic is of course your own responsibility!! ;>) More seriously, I don't know many threads around here where close tangents such as the one I introduced are not welcome as part of the ordinary flow of discussion. The topic, strictly speaking is: "Sone rape victims should take blame??", and the answer, of course, is "No.". Two posts, end of thread.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 03:51 PM

Amos,

Thanks for that.

Your tangent is interesting as it draws atteention to and ultimately clarifies the confusion confusion surrounding the subject of responsibility.

The reason I commented on its relevance, was not because I have a problem with tangents, but because there have been posts to this thread which asserted that a woman who dresses sexily is partially responsible for the rape on her. These comments have attempted to blur the issue by misappying the "self possession" sense of responsibilty to imply partial blame.

It was therefore important for me to clarify that distinction so as to remove any ambiguity, and to show that in the context of this discussion a woman who dresses sexily or who is drunk is no more responsible for being raped than a woman who wears a nuns habit and hangs out in church.

I think that that last distinction puts us on the same page.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 04:36 PM

Well I think if a woman lets a stranger take her home strips and gets into bed with that stranger, she is responsible not for the crime but for putting herself in a very dangerous situation.

I think what Amos was saying, was that if the woman fails to learn from the experience that personal responsibility for ones own safety is paramount, then she runs the risk of ending up in the same situation again.

Also, as Amos said, realisation that her actions got her into danger will help her to rationalise and move on from the horrific experience.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:17 PM

Thankfully Ake, Amos is much better at describing his point of view than you are, so it is already very clear what his point was.

Thankfully we also have dictionaries to clarify the meaning of words.

So we can ignore your impulse to redefine and take ownership of words like "responsibility" and "fascism" so they fit your world view.

Equally we can ignore your attempts to redefine and take ownership of Amos' point of view so it fits your world view.

Which makes you obsolete.

But lets examine your last ditch desperate example anyway.

"Well I think if a woman lets a stranger take her home strips and gets into bed with that stranger ... blah ... blah ..."

So the woman and the man are naked in bed together ... and then ...

... actually I think I'll stop there ...

There is no point carrying on with this self satirizing caricature.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:48 PM

"From: akenaton - PM
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 04:36 PM

Well I think if a woman lets a stranger take her home strips and gets into bed with that stranger,"

And then she discovers he has a hideous case of genital warts, or and then she receives a text saying her sister has just had a car crash and is in an emergency ward, or and then she starts to feel really sick because she's had too much to drink and totally loses her desire for sex?

What would a bloke do in those circumstances?

He certainly wouldn't be too worried about leading a woman on and making her think he was 'gagging for it'.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:51 PM

I meant to finish.. because he woldn't feel bound by threat of violence to some kind of imaginary 'contract' sealed by a kiss.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 05:16 PM

No apology needed Dave el Gnomo

I jumped to a conclusion, based on the proximity of two posts, and it is I who should be apologising, which I most sincerely do.

In future I really must not pull the trigger until I am sure just what the target is, and where.

Contritely
Don T

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 05:35 PM

I take it then, that all on this thread with the exception of myself believe that we should abdicate all responsibility for our health and safety?......I think not, at the beginning of this thread there were many who spoke in favour of personal responsibility....seems all have been bullied into silence by the brown shirted thought police.

Stand up and be counted you are not sheep! The MO you see being practiced here, will soon make Any meaningful discussion impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 05:50 PM

Brown shirted thought police? Oh FFS ake get a grip.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 06:41 PM

Well mousethief, taking responsibility for ones actions in any walk of life is pure common sense.
Why do so many here argue against it?

It can only be, a political agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:01 PM

People aren't arguing against it. You're not listening to what they're really saying, you're assuming that because they don't agree with your way of saying it, they must be disagreeing with the basic idea of taking behavior.

And even if you were right on that score, political agenda is far from the only reason that could explain their behavior.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:10 PM

Ake,

Pay attention.

"taking responsibility for ones actions in any walk of life is pure common sense."

Yes thats right.

So as rape is the action of a rapist, the responsibility for it is the rapists.

As rape is not the action of the victim, it is not the responsibility of the victim.


As for the type of responsibility described by Amos, it applies to all victims equally regardless circumstance.


Now why don't you in the brown pants brigade stop whingeing.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:17 PM

Mousethief, I am listening to what they are saying, and it sounds very much like nonesense to me.

I dont really understand your meaning here, perhaps a typo?

You're not listening to what they're really saying, you're assuming that because they don't agree with your way of saying it, they must be disagreeing with the basic idea of taking behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:28 PM

"nonesense"

Is this a typo?

Well I suppose it doesn't matter really.

It's still recognizable as nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 10:29 PM

For "behavior" at the end substitute "responsibility" -- sorry about that.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 03:48 AM

"As for the type of responsibility described by Amos, it applies to all victims equally regardless circumstance."


I agree with Amos and Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 04:27 AM

Thanks mousethief......I didn't mean you were posting nonesense, it was just that sentence I couldn't understand.

I have not heard any of the most vociferous posters speak about a need to take responsibility for ones own safety.

The point that one or two of us are making seems self evident to me, and does not affect the culpability of the perpetrator.

There is an obvious culture appearing everywhere, which is based on an abdication of responsibility for anything.

This culture is IMO destructive.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 06:09 AM

i understand and totally get the need for personal responsibilty.
i just don't think it applies in the case of rape to the victim.

if it was a car accident, you wouldn't blame the driver of another car for being on the same road at the same time as say a drunk driver.
getting into a car driven by someone you know is drunk would be very silly.though you still wouldn't be to blame for a crash . BUT if you didn't know that person was drunk and got into the car, you as a passenger would bear no responsibilty at all to whether a crash occurs or not.
the same with a rapist. if one knows he is a rapist, one wouldn't go anywhere near him sorry, or her. you wouldn't be inviting it but would know the increased chances of it happening. therefore be able to make an informed decision.

to live life without trusting anyone to some degree woud be a very sad life indeed. one which i doubt anyone of us could imagine.

does that make sense?

x x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 06:49 AM

'fraid not Jade.

But I think this thread has run its course....keep well ..A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 07:13 AM

I agree, there is little more to be said..

jade, you left out that if someone got into that car, knowing they were drunk, and something awful happened to them, it is still not their *fault* if the other person does something terrible, but they were *responsible* for getting into the car in the first place. They were *responsible* for getting *drunk* in the **first** place.
As such, they put themselves at a FAR HIGHER RISK of unscrupulous, opportunistic 'drivers' who may decide to take them to a lonely spot and rape them.

It is why the police tell young women to make sure they know the taxi company they are being driven home by, to cut the chances of that happening, because so often women are absolutely legless when they turn out of pubs and clubs these days.   Even then, they are still risking goodness knows what, because even the most reputable taxi firm may have hired a dodgy bloke.   

Do not get legless in the first place, I guess is the best idea, but woe betide any person, let alone another woman, who dares to state that to women these days.

"It's OUR BLOODY RICHT TO GET LEGLESS!"

Fair enough, but then be prepared to accept the consequences.

Don't drink to the point where you have NO IDEA what is happening to you. It is, imo, one of the most stupid (and degrading) things a woman can do, because she is doing the equivalent of lying down in the middle of the motorway and saying that no-one has the 'right' to hit her, when of course, the ***chances*** are that someone probably will.

No man should rape.
But some do.

No woman should behave in a totally irresponsible fashion.
But some do.

When the two meet.......chaos may well ensue.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 02:14 PM

Jade,

Have you ever heard of a person knowingly going off with a rapist?

That would be risky.

A Rapist is likely to rape.

But when you have no idea whether someone is a rapist or not, it is a matter of luck.

And rapists attack all sorts of women, not just drunk ones or ones that dress sassilly.

In fact, they usually attack their "friends".


So to apply Ake's reasoning, never go home with someone you know, because you are more likely to get raped.


But of course we know that that line of reasoning is nonsense so ... whatever ...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 05:28 PM

Going off drunk driving is illegal, and can be blamed for an accident that happens.

Going dancing at a club is not illegal, and we've already agreed that the victim can't be blamed for rape.

Sorry Lizzie, absolutely no comparison.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 06:20 PM

lox, i am glad that what i said you could make sense out of.

i know what i mean, but find it hard sometimes to put it into words that make sense to anyone else.

yes, if you have no evidence that someone is a rapist, no suspitions(?) then why not trust that person.

the same for getting in a car of a friend of a friend, or even a taxi driver. that person may appear sober but may be over the limit and dangerous.

people are good at covering up their true personalites. apart from trusting our own senses or vibes about people, we are all in the dark.
often the people that are the most dangerous are the ones who engender trust quickly.
the only time someone can ever be held responsible is if they know of someones history and still take the risk. but i wouldn't blame them should anything happen. it is in our nature to want to make people better, to change them for the better.

i hope this makes what i said earlier a little clearer.
take care all
jade x x x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 07:17 PM

There is a large difference in risk between getting into a car with a "friend of a friend" or a taxi driver and getting into bed with a complete stranger.

You may be a nice open hearted girl, who thinks well of everyone Jade, but I'm afraid the real world is not like that.
Safety is of the utmost importance, to protect oneself from STD's or rape

To argue anything else is extremely stupid and irresponsible besides puting women at additional risk.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 07:47 PM

hi ake, there isn't much more to add. i will just say that i think having a serious car crash might have 'similar' effects on ones confidence and health as rape.

i don't think the majority of rapes are people getting into bed with strangers. maybe they have seen them around for a few weeks? we won't get to know.
most are aquantance rapes. where people are friends or family friends or have known them a while.
thats why i said people can make you beileve they are good people, buton the inide you really never know.
as someone who was 'friends' with a peadophile. he was very very good at hiding who he really was.

i am trusting to a degree yes, still get things wrong of course. still if we didn't make mistakes we would never learn. but i also know not to label everyone the same.
see why you think the way you do ake, i just think you are on the wrong path for the right reasons.....sorry that sounded really patronising, but i can't be bothered to retype it! it was a compliment..honest.

take care hun.
jade x x x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 11:52 AM

""I have not heard any of the most vociferous posters speak about a need to take responsibility for ones own safety.

The point that one or two of us are making seems self evident to me, and does not affect the culpability of the perpetrator.

There is an obvious culture appearing everywhere, which is based on an abdication of responsibility for anything.

This culture is IMO destructive.""

There comes a point, Ake, when you have to decide which side of an argument does the greater harm, if fully, and generally accepted.

SCENARIO 1. Rape victim goes to court. The court decides her case on the basis that rape is indefensible, and evidence as to the victim's previous behaviour is inadmissible, given that she said NO! The rapist goes to jail, the victim is allowed to put the wreckage of her life back together.

SCENARIO 2. Rape victim goes to court. She is accused by the defence of being morally loose, and irresponsible because of her style of dress, consumption of alcohol, and placing trust in a newly met stranger. She is tied up in knots by a clever lawyer, ripped to shreds, and the rapist goes free, secure in the belief that he can rape with impunity, as long as he chooses only provocatively dressed females. The victim, on the other hand, leaves court stripped of the last vestige of self respect, and quite possibly suicidal.

The man in each of these cases is a RAPIST!

Now I'm well aware that you do not condone the crime, but from the moment you allow even the concept of responsibility, SCENARIO 2 becomes not just possible, but in many cases inevitable.

Which of these scenarios represents the most potential harm, not just to this victim, but to others in the future?

That is why I will not ever allow that a victim of rape is in the slightest degree responsible.

I decline to set myself up for the guilt I would feel when scenario 2 came about.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 12:04 PM

So, what you are saying is that people should abdicate all responsibility for their safety and rely on "society" to protect them?

Madness!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 01:17 PM

Culpability and responsibility are two different things.

One is a legal, social construct.

The other is personal.

It doesn't matter what a lawyer says, personal responsibility is the only sane personal interpretation of such an event. This in NO wisew reduces the rapist's culpability.

You are confusing the social universe with its rich tradition of blame-finding and adversarial bloviations with the simple truth of the matter.

If you let the legal system con you into believing untruths, you become captured by lies.

PERSONAL responsibility is not the same thing as legal burden.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 02:54 PM

""So, what you are saying is that people should abdicate all responsibility for their safety and rely on "society" to protect them?""

Putting your words into my mouth does not make you right.

Of course one should watch out for open manholes, in order not to fall in, but rapists do not carry badges advertising what they are.

Nor do rapists form a majority of males, in fact they are probably a tiny minority of the breed.

Also, it has been well established, further up this thread, that only a tiny minority of rape victims are in the the group you categorise as risk takers.

As to relying on "society", that is a nonsensical statement.

We all rely on the "criminal justice system" to protect us from lawbreakers.

You are more likely to be mugged, than any individual woman is to be raped.

Do you stay at home with your doors locked?

NO! Of course you don't.

You are more likely to be involved in a car crash, than a woman is to be raped.

Do you sell your car and move to an uninhabited island?

NO! Of course you don't.

Why NOT?

Because to do either would be a ridiculous overreaction, and you would rightly be enraged if anyone told you that you were responsible for putting yourself in harms way.

Take one individual woman, and she might meet one hundred men without a single one being a rapist.

So you expect her to protect herself by projecting as unattractive an image as possible, and staying away from places of entertainment, and treating all men with the ultimate of suspicion.

Assuming she does everything on that list, she is still more likely to be raped than her friend who ignores the precautions.

Something screwy there, don't you think?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 03:22 PM

Don:

If I may say so, none of those solutions were recommended by Ake.

Whatever steps you--or your hypothetical woman--take in a day or a year are entirely your own choice in action, timing, location, born out of your own sense of "what to do and why to do it".

That's personal responsibility. If you decide to cross a street you do it knowing that it is riskier than standing on the sidewalk, but you do so thinking you have assessed the dangers correctly.

It's not the point to stop going places. It's owning your own actions and decisions.

ANd as I said earlier its not a legal issue or a blame criterion.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 03:32 PM

Culpability and responsibility are two different things.

One is a legal, social construct.

The other is personal.

It doesn't matter what a lawyer says, personal responsibility is the only sane personal interpretation of such an event. This in NO wisew reduces the rapist's culpability.

You are confusing the social universe with its rich tradition of blame-finding and adversarial bloviations with the simple truth of the matter.

If you let the legal system con you into believing untruths, you become captured by lies.

PERSONAL responsibility is not the same thing as legal burden.""

With the very greatest of respect, Amos, tell that to the victim after that lawyer has bludgeoned her into submission, and as a result the perpetrator is free as a bird to re-offend.

I think you will probably have some trouble getting her to accept that responsibility, in a court of law, is any different than blame.

My point is that in introducing the concept of victim responsibility for rape, you hand the perpetrator (whether you mean to or not), a very powerful weapon, which will, however you spin it, vastly increase the likelihood of his escaping the consequences of his crime.

In effect you load the dice aginst the victim.

I don't approve of that!

DO YOU?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 03:51 PM

Ok Ake,

In the very specific case that you have outlined, where a man and woman who are strangers are both naked in bed together and have both had a few drinks ...

Admittedly, in that situation, there is a higher risk of the man believing that she intended to have sex ...

You've got me there all right!

However,

The percentage chance of him being a rapist is the same as that of the Taxi driver, or the friend of a friend who is giving you a lift though.

And a non rapist will not commit rape.


Only a "stupid" person would find that hard to uderstand.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 03:58 PM

QED Lox.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 04:01 PM

Amos,

"Culpability and responsibility are two different things."

As the dictionary definitions I provided above show, this is not true.


Responsibility in the sense in which it is used in this thread is all about culpability.

Accepting partiual responsibility for a rape in this context means accepting partialblame.

It also refers to a parents obligation to their child, a politicians obligation to his country, and a policemans obligation to protect citizens of society.

And it also refers to the personal responsibility of which you speak.

But heres the distinction.

The responsibility that rape victims have for themselves is not distinct from the responsibility that other members of society have for themselves in this respect.

The rape victim who goes to church is as responsible for what happenned to her as the one who is raped in the office, and they are both equally responsible for what happened to them as the one who was raped in her own bed after losing her mojo at the very last second.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 04:04 PM

You are quite right. In a court of law, "responsible" means "to blame". No question.

And since courts are by their nature adversarial and gladiatorial one should not walk in to such a hearing asserting one is personally responsible for what happened. Not because it is not true up to a point but because one is there to win a contest, not speak the truth.

However, it would be foolish to let these facts about courtroom dramas adulterate one's integrity or personal sense of truth after the trial is over.

As I have said several times these are wholly different spheres of action.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 04:59 PM

Amos,


"As I have said several times these are wholly different spheres of action."

Thank you for that.

I would like to clarify my own position.

I am not interested in legal definitions of "blame" and "responsibility", I am concerned with dictionary definitions, which have little to do with either adversrial or gladitorial debate, but which are concerned with clarifying meaning and facilitating clear communication.

In addition, I'm sorry to labour a point, but I would be grateful if you could clarify two key points for me as unambiguously as you can:

1. Do you see some rape victims as being more responsible for their circumstances than others?

2. With regard to the following comment:

"However, it would be foolish to let these facts about courtroom dramas adulterate one's integrity or personal sense of truth after the trial is over."

Are you suggesting that some rape victims, upon honest reflection, would have to admit that their behaviour or style of dress made the attack on them more likely?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 05:02 PM

Ake,

"You may be a nice open hearted girl, who thinks well of everyone Jade, but I'm afraid the real world is not like that."

You did read didn't you that Jade was a victim of rape?

Exactly which bit of reality was it that you meant to open her eyes to?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 05:53 PM

For the record,

only around 14% of rapes are committed by strangers.


so they say ...


The rest are committed mainly by intimate "friends", but acquaintances and family seem to be pretty active too.


I imagine it would help the victims of these rapes to take ownership of the sequence of events that led them to be raped too.


What lessons could they learn I wonder about trusting friends and family?


Simple precautions like ensuring that when your uncle comes round for tea, you have a clear route to the nearest door, or sometthing heavy like an ashtray handy to defen yourself with.


Just imagine the healthy nourishing relationships Women could have with their male friends and relations as they "took responsibility" for their circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:10 PM

1. Do you see some rape victims as being more responsible for their circumstances than others?

2. With regard to the following comment:

"However, it would be foolish to let these facts about courtroom dramas adulterate one's integrity or personal sense of truth after the trial is over."

Are you suggesting that some rape victims, upon honest reflection, would have to admit that their behaviour or style of dress made the attack on them more likely?


I see any individual--and in this scenario, the victim AND the perpetrator--as being responsible for every decision they have made.

I suggest that any rape victim will be further along the road to recovery from the trauma when she identifies for herself those parts of the scene that she can take responsibility for. The reason is this is how she can get back into a view of causing her life in the future.   If that includes a computation about what made the attack more or less likely, so be it--it is an individual exercise.

It is completely understandable that they might not identify any way in which they made it more likely.   But the infinite set of choices they did make has to be returned to their own causative perspective if they are not going to go through the rest of their lives being afraid and unsure of themselves because of what some bastard did.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:27 PM

"I see any individual--and in this scenario, the victim AND the perpetrator--as being responsible for every decision they have made."

Thank you Amos.

But as you took great pains to point out in your last post, you have already made this point in this thread.

I asked: "Do you see some rape victims as being more responsible for their circumstances than others?"

You haven't clarified that particular point unambiguously.

A specific, unambiguous clarification on whether you think some rape victims can be described as more responsible than others, or whether you think all are equally responsible would be gratefully received.

I await with baited breath.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:33 PM

"It is completely understandable that they might not identify any way in which they made it more likely.   But the infinite set of choices they did make has to be returned to their own causative perspective if they are not going to go through the rest of their lives being afraid and unsure of themselves because of what some bastard did."


Well I supose they might compare their circumstances with those of other rape victims, during which process they would find that most rape victims are attacked by close friends, acquaintances and family members.

They might detect a pattern and conclude that they should be less trusting of their friends and family.

Do you thin that women who have been raped by close friends, acquaintances or family should learn not to be so trusting of them?

After all, if you wish to apply a principle, is it not important to apply it consistently?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:49 PM

Do you think that women who have been raped by close friends, acquaintances or family should learn not to be so trusting of them?

--

Of course. Same as if a redhead raped them. We are programmed to learn these painful lessons. We would probably always have a fear of redheads after that experience. If someone were raped by a family member or close acquaintance, of course we should learn not to be so trusting of them..and try not to generalize where it is not applicable..but of course we should learn. mg

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:53 PM

Amos,

Below are two statements from you:

1. "it would be foolish to let these facts about courtroom dramas adulterate one's integrity or personal sense of truth"

2. "any rape victim will be further along the road to recovery from the trauma when she identifies for herself those parts of the scene that she can take responsibility for"

Number 2. was posted to explain number 1.

But it doesn't succeed, for the following reasons:

In quote 1, you present the idea that "the courtroom drama" is the thing affecting the womans integrity and personal sense of truth.

In quote 2, you talk of her recovery from the trauma of the rape itself.

You say that the process of reflection is an individual exercise.

Does that mean that you see each individual as bearing different degrees of responsibility?

Is this a purely subjective process for the victim to undertake?

What if two different women, raped in identical circumstances, but with different personalities, accepted significantly different degrees of responsibility as a result of the differences in their character?

Is one right and one wrong?

Are they each tipping the balance away fromn a sensible amount of 'honesty'?

Where is that line drawn?

More importantly, regardless of what each victim thinks, what do you think?

Are there differing degrees of responsibility?

Why is it so hard for you to give your opinion on that point?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:57 PM

mg,

And once women have learned to take responsibility by not trusting their husbands, boyfriends, cousins, uncles, workmates, tennis partners etc, what kind of life will they then live?

Should women just not trust men?

Wouldn't that be a wonderful existence.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 08:11 PM

Women should not pretrust men they do not know. They should not let them into their homes alone. They should not accept dates that involve transportation with unknown men (unless known to others). Mothers should watch their children around various relatives and certainly around mother's boyfriends. We have to be alert and protective of ourselves and younger and more vulnerable, and frankly, more attractive women..and certainly teens and children.

They will live the kind of life women have always had to live..to be aware, to be vigilant, to avoid many scenarios that most of the time would be perfectly safe but sometimes are not..scenarios that have been known to various cultures and societies for millenia. I like men, I not only trust most of them, I revere some of them for how wonderful they are. But I am not going to go into certain circumstances with them. mg

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: GUEST,maryrrf (no cookie?)
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 09:56 PM

No woman should be blamed for being raped, but that doesn't mean women should not take responsibility for their personal safety.
Not all rapes are preventable, but some are, and the most important defense is to be observant, use and trust your judgment (which means avoiding getting into a situation where you are so intoxicated that you can't look after yourself) and exercising caution about who you go home with, get into bed with, etc.    As to dressing provocatively, that's an individual choice but it can be a risk factor in that it sends out signals that can be misread… you don't know the mindset of the person who's picking up on those signals.
When I was young and naïve – having recently left the small community where I grew up, I had some difficult incidents with guys who invited me to their apartments for dinner or a drink and then put the moves on – in a few cases very aggressively.    I didn't get raped, but I did feel threatened and uncomfortable.    I learned to be careful about who I went home with – to read body language and other signals, and it helped me to avoid such situations in the future. And no I didn't become paranoid, just much more aware.    Now, If I'd gone to dinner at somebody's house and been raped would it be my fault? No. But being aware of the possibility made me much more careful about whose house I had dinner at.    It's entirely possible that I could have misjudged somebody, thought they were trustworthy, gone to their house, and gotten in trouble, but as I said, not all rapes are preventable.   
You could say that about most crimes. I always felt that my neighborhood was safe and often didn't bother to lock my car. Then one day somebody stole all my CDs from the unlocked car in my driveway. This made me aware of the risk, and I now lock my car. Was it my fault my CDs were stolen because I left the car unlocked? No, but I doubt the kids would have bothered smashing the window, and had I locked the car, it might have prevented the theft. Not all crimes are preventable, but you can reduce the risk.
There's a difference between blaming the victim for being raped and encouraging women to look out for themselves.    In an ideal world, they shouldn't have to, but the human race just hasn't reached the point where we can always trust everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 10:09 PM

thanks maryrrf. no offence to anyone else but you put that in a way that i understand. non judgmental and non blaming, just cautionary.

the problem comes when you judge someone wrongly. to then take any blame or responsibilty afterwards makes one question every decision you then have to make. as a friend said on another forum, you might expect them to try it on, but you don't expect anyone to not take no for an answer if you did think about it, you would never make new friends.

take care all
jade x x x x x x