BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 12:24 PM

Just musing here... Isn't Beauty the result when someone/something is true to itself? For instance, there are breeds of dogs I don't particularly care for- but I do recognize excellence in some of those dogs, based on the fact that they look/act just as they were bred to.

Maybe that is an offshoot of the feeling that Beauty is Truth.

One of the odd things that sometimes occurs to me is the jolt to reality in the presence of what I perceive as beautiful, and I have to face the fact that the reason I/humankind see it as beautiful is that I was programmed to do so. If I were programmed to see something ugly- a grievous facial wound on a weeping child, say, or discordant, clashing, violent sounds perhaps- as beautiful, that's what I would see. Scary. Maybe that is what some monsters out there do see...

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 12:35 PM

All I know is, things that I think are beautiful, make me happy. Everything else is open for debate. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 12:44 PM

I'm all for the strong vitrues you've brought forth ''guest'... But, like CarolC, I am strongly committed to the beauty that eminates from such strength of character... The point Peg made is a good one... If we develop our acute understanding of beauty, and perceive it generously, we are doing something remarkable. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

In a world dominated by melodrama, power, and fear; armor is coveted... and beauty 'tis but a side show to (or a prize for) the main attraction... Whatever the current one is... but the witnessing of beauty is virtually unimportant to the 'trying times of the day'. Meanwhile, the entire human showcase is being highlighted, and transcended, by a tiny fraction of beauty's potential... It may be our ability to perceive this, that sets the 'better ball' rolling... d'ya think?^) ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 12:51 PM

Kim - No, hell is full of tortured minds, that's all! Hell can be in the trim and tidy house next door, at the workplace, in the alleyway, in a jail, on a battlefield, in a classroom, and yes, in certain spiritual dimensions usually termed as "the Astral Worlds" in the traditions I am most familiar with. The Astral Worlds, by the way, run the gamut...from the heavenly to the etherial to the mundane to the gloomy to the absolutely hellish...just the way physical life does! They're not physical, that's all. They are mental. They are realms of thought, and when minds leave the physical body (or extend themselves from it a certain amount, as in dreaming) they can have experiences in the Astral Worlds. I had such a dream last night, and it was quite spooky in parts...very intriguing. I seem to have fairly good protection when I'm in the nastier places, fortunately.

The primary ingredient of hell is Fear, coupled with a sense of extreme limitation.

As long as the mind considers itself to be the ultimate intelligence, and the one and only king of its reality, and alone and vulnerable at the same time...then it is in a hell of its own making.

It's kind of like one cell in an elephant being completely unaware that it's harmoniously united with the whole rest of the elephant at all times. Given free will in such a circumstance, that cell may in fear begin behaving like a cancer cell, in order to supposedly protect itself. This makes it dangerous to itself and possibly the whole rest of the elephant...on a physical level, at any rate.

GUEST - Sounds like you're focusing mainly on physical outward beauty as seen by the eye, which is generally described as "skin deep". I'd say that joy and love are beautiful feelings or states of mind...but you can't exactly see them...or can you? Well, you can see the effect they have on a person, that's for sure.

Honesty is a beautiful characteristic. Dishonesty is an ugly one.

And so it goes.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 01:34 PM

Don't make the mistake of thinking there isn't order in chaos! Look at fractals, for instance...

I am interested in "life between" dualities like beautiful and ugly. I am interested in things that have a symmetry of both the simple and the complex. I am interested in patterns, and how they are perpetually changing to reorder and repeat themselves, even though they are never exactly the same way twice. That ole "self-organization out of chaos" thing. I know one thing--I sure wouldn't want to live in a world without negative feedback.

I believe "what is beautiful" is culturally based, learned behavior.

As to the maxim "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" I would counter it with another maxim "Beauty is only skin deep."

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 01:45 PM

As to the maxim "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" I would counter it with another maxim "Beauty is only skin deep."

But I'm looking for order, for unifying values.

You're going to experience beauty in whatever way you experience it. One thing I would be almost willing to bet money on, though. You will probably not ever find any "unifying values" with regard to beauty (at least not any universal ones), or find anything "unifying" (universally) with regard to anything that can be defined as a "value".

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 01:58 PM

CarolC, I'm talking in chaos theory terms of unifying--in the sense of self-organizing to create structures out of chaos. Think hurricanes and tornadoes. When I used the word "unify" I meant it as the literal coming together of many factors at once. Like the way a hurricane transforms reality by self-organizing specific sorts of patterns out of chaos, giving birth to a structured form in nature we call a hurricane.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:05 PM

So you're saying that you want to find patterns in human nature that you can look at in terms of "transform(ing) reality by self-organizing specific sorts of patterns out of chaos, giving birth to a structured form in (human behavoir)?

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:14 PM

I woudl submit for reflection that the source of beauty is no structure, or wavelength, but attention itself, when it is free to operate at its highest order. Thus in chaos, beauty will unfold (the harmonie of Fibonacci series, for example, entrances) providing the Viewer is able to appreciate what is there to be beheld. That ability ranges from the sublime to the ridiculous in our species and in the spectrum of spiritual states we find ourselves in.

The funny thing, of course, is that a potentially highly spiritual being who is so beaten down as to be able to appreciate nothing more refined, say , than sex or eating, will still assert he is finding beauty in sex and in eating. And the deep psycho, whether acute or chronic, can drool over the beauty he sees in destruction and havoc.

So in a way, to answer the thread question, what beauty does for us is to reveal to us how right we always knew we were all along! :>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:14 PM

Add "in nature" to "in human behavior" and you've got it.

I think chaos theory explains a lot about human behavior and nature, and that they mirror each other. Living beings don't act the same way individually as they do en masse. Think termites, bees, kids on a playground, people on Mudcat. We undergo chemical changes and behavioral changes in the company of others like ourselves. We leave a marker of some sort to let others like us to follow, find, and join us so we can do our group thing. In cyberspace, one way we do it is through links.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:17 PM

Buber dealt with chaos in the "Whirlpool" dialogue in his early work "Daniel." And beauty seems to have many faces: there is the beauty of fractals and Chaos Theory, but there is also the beauty of light reflecting from oil drops on a pool of water. One doesn't negate the other, but allows us to appreciate beauty to the depths of our understanding and ability.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:29 PM

In some areas of mystical thought, GUEST, the concepts you are referring to can be looked at using the concept of "collective consciousness" (maybe you already knew that). That's a whole other interesting subject to talk about, in my opinion. But I think beauty can be discussed just as interestingly from the personal perspective, if that's what the people discussing it want to do.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:29 PM

Rapaire, I never suggested that beauty was negated. I said it wasn't an attribute (maybe I should change the word to aesthetic?) I particularly value over most others. The thread question is "what has beauty ever done for us?" and that is the question I'm concerning myself with here, not whether beauty is good, bad, neutral, etc.

Back to the cultural basis of beauty, one thing fine artists (as an example) are "trained" to do is to appreciate aesthetics, often taught through both art history (here are examples), and through training to see and mimic things in specific ways, ie technique (here is how to do it to make it look like that).

That to me is a good example of how we are culturally trained from infancy to define beauty--it is done according to what the people we live with say is beautiful, pretty, nice, etc.

We also are socially conditioned to perceive beauty in gender specific ways too. That "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" dynamic is in some ways gender specific, particularly when we are being conditioned to "appreciate" beauty in potential mates.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:35 PM

Looking at your 10 Jan 03 - 02:29 PM post, I think I would have to say that you and I have very different definitions of the word "beauty".

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:44 PM

Beautifully put, Amos!

There's also the question of paradox...the simultaneous existence of things apparently contradictory...and that can be very illuminating. So, in order there is chaos and in chaos there is order...if you see it.

If God is All That Is...then what "is not"? What would the Is Not be like if it was? It would be Not Like everything that is. The mind looks at things and divides them up into "this" and "that", "here" and "there", "us" and "them", "up" and "down", and so on. Duality springs from the separated mind (ego) observing reality from a single vantage point along a line or in a field. But...all dualities can be seen as the opposite ends of a single curve or field. Hot and cold for example are the opposite ends of a curve called "temperature". Beauty and ugliness are the opposite ends of a similar curve. What is its name?

There is something else involved besides "here" and "there"...there is the space in between and the space all around what is here and what is there. That space is the One (the field), and it is inclusive of both what is here and what is there, plus what is between them, inside them, and all around them, yet it is in itself entirely insubstantial, and immeasurable in its entirety. It's a measureless, featureless field of existence. That's what some people call God, but someone else might call it the space-time continuum or some other term such as the Absolute.

People who have been oppressed by organized religion or heard bad things about it from someone else (like their parents or peer group) usually have a gut hostility to the word "God", but they may feel quite comfortable with some other word that essentially means the same thing. It's always interesting to observe what sets people off that way. They react strongly to the cover, but seldom read the book.

Take it away, Amos, I'm short of time here...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:03 PM

"you and I have very different definitions of the word "beauty"

This is getting circular now. That is one of the reasons why I said I didn't find beauty to be a thing of great value to me. It is too individualistic and idiosyncratic on the one hand, and too culturally determined on the other, to be a unifying concept. That doesn't mean I look at it in oppositional terms though, and say that it is divisive.

It is sort of like the play between harmony and dissonance in music. All harmony no dissonance might be pleasing to the ear for awhile, but if you had to live your whole life listening only to harmony...AAAIIIIEEE!

I'm beginning to think this thread has become work avoidance people! Shouldn't we all be out shovelling snow or something?

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:08 PM

We're just having a bit of fun. If you don't enjoy it, you don't have to play with us.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:12 PM

Thanks CarolC. I really needed you to explain that to me.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:13 PM

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:16 PM

I just DID shovel some snow. Now I'm about to go out and buy copy paper, printer ink, and pick up an ergonomic office chair to help my posture. Then I must pay some bills and check the mail.

Happy?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:22 PM

The problem with labeling something like that, LH, as you know full well, is that to do so you must assume the role of labeler. That immediately places you in an arbitrary subdivision of reduced perspective, which is one of the reasons most philophers so tedious and circular.

THere are two songs in the Mudcat Songbook which capture this to some degree. One is called "Bring Down the Walls", and the other, "The Wilderness Trail".

So I done took it away and put it back already for ya, good buddy, and I hope that chair helps your back!! :>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:56 PM

Autistic savants often have specialized music ability. One question I would posit to all of you then is, does an autistic savant with music genius of some sort, sense beauty in the music, or are they simply using the structures of music as a bifurcation point, or as some other means of self-organizing out of chaos?

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 04:02 PM

This is getting circular now. That is one of the reasons why I said I didn't find beauty to be a thing of great value to me. It is too individualistic and idiosyncratic on the one hand, and too culturally determined on the other, to be a unifying concept. That doesn't mean I look at it in oppositional terms though, and say that it is divisive.

Now Guest... To tell you the truth, It is not a matter of consequence to anyone but the beholder what they take for 'beautiful'... My feeling about your point of view is probably irrelevent to the intensity of your appreciation of the beauty in your sphere of pursiuts... I have great faith in your quest! Go for it! It's the phrase "beauty is only skin deep..." that is our cultural heritage... (and the rest too '...but ugly is to the bone')... not the various subjective realities of beauty in and of themselves. In matters of improvement, beauty is somewhere nearby... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 06:28 PM

the above posting should have been notated that the first paragraph is a quote from -guest 3:03-... sorry for the confusion (my epitaph perhaps?)...

Bifurcation point? Well, though it may be though by many to be my highest goal in life to be an 'autistic savant' musician, it would be absurd to declare myself such... My shoddy musicianship turns the lights out on savant, and my work kicks the autistic out on it's ass... and so, I am really unqualified to engage you on this one... sorry...

In the most general sense tho, I have a vague presumption surfacing that says "true beauty is unaware of itself" ...and by so being, the 'autistic savant's' music may just be an ordinary thing for it's creator... while being extrordinary to it's listeners... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 06:38 PM

"I have a vague presumption surfacing..."

Cool.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 07:54 PM

I'm ba-a-a-a-ck!~