BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?

Subject: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Fiolar
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 05:42 AM

Just thought I would keep the silly list of threads running a bit longer.

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 05:45 AM

u mean santa?

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:07 AM

if it wasn't for Satan bring sin into the world, you wouldn't need churches.
And also you wouldn't need God either trying to save everyone

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:15 AM

have you read i>'the santa clause'?<

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:28 AM

By Satan you mean Mephistopheles, Beelzebub, Lucifer, The horned one, Old Nick, in short the Devil.
Tricky.
Perhaps the ultimate proof of the non-existence of God?

The argument goes something like this.

The origin of Evil

God made everything including the Devil.
The Devil is Evil
If god made the Devil without free will then he must have made him Evil in the first place.
Then God created Evil from himself therefore God is Evil.
But God is Good By definition.
Contradiction.
Therefore no God

If however God gave the Devil free will and the Devil chose Evil, God must have created Evil so that the Devil could make his choice.

Then God created Evil from himself therefore God is Evil.
But God is Good By definition.
Contradiction.
Therefore no God

QED

All the best PP

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:39 AM

As Mark Twain once observed, "Heaven for the climate and Hell for the company."

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Davetnova
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 08:31 AM

He does have some nice tunes. All the best ones I'm led to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: The Pooka
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:45 AM

Hee hee. Nowait, I mean mmmWAA-ha-haaaa. / Fiolar yer the divil, you're leadin' us astray.

Well. Let's see. When he wasn't awa' wi' the exciseman, the Deil gie us the Jesuit-educated William Peter Blatty for to make a fine tale about his first cousin Pazuzu (Beelzebub's, not Bill's).

Nick also made a great ongoing mystery in & around Salem Village, Massachusetts, where generations of scholars have tried to account for the mass hysteria in socio-psychological terms --- ignoring the obvious explanation. :)

Many years ago in London, I heard a BBC radio report of a poll showing that 80% of the British public believed in Hell, and 70% in the Devil -- implying (the broadcaster dryly stated) an intriguing 10%
who believe in a Hell presided over by somebody else. He didn't nominate any candidates. This was before the era of Maggie Thatcher so that couldn't have been it. :)

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:47 AM

Thousands, perhaps millions of us have been forced by fortune and economics to live in places where, to put it bluntly, it gets damn cold. I do not respond well to cold. Every Autumn I send sincere thanks to Satan for inventing central heating. Go Satan!!

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:06 AM

Oh this is so easy I'm surprised no one else has chimed in.

Thanks to what was supposed to be the first expression of free will to openly chose to serve their own ego and want to be God unto himself; Lucifer and conceive the grandest delusion of all time ; that a rebellion was even desireable, forget possible.

Consider Lucifer ; one of the greatest beings of Light , it was his gift to be , sqandering his gift in the sevice of the greatest ego of all time that caused him to become the greatest parasite of all time as he draws his continued existance from the light he is a master of extracting from countless other beings of light ensnared into the excruciating limitations of a mere "biological life".
Lucifer , deluduing himself by the fact that he had incredible knowledge to manipulate the Laws of Nature in Matter that he was a creator unto himself has given all us:

Our sense of doubts, suspicions , terrors , sense of being left behind ,somehow and doomed to endless cycles of livng in an empire of flesh with *all* of its frailties and , thus , manipulated by all of its *appetites* become addictions from bloodlusts to to depravities to degeneracies and be conviced along the way that it's all just the way things are supposed to be. Further ; to raise it to the level of a passtime, a sport , even high fashion.

Lucifer gave us rape, torture ,slaughter , war and all of the self-doubts that lead to the "to hell with the world I'm gonna get what's mine" reptilian-branied agressiveness alloyed with the serpentine seductions and incitements, in a word "the lie", that this is all life is about and thus to get others to commit all the attrocites for you at their risk.

Satan is the greatest source of mankind's continued cycles of misery , loneliness, dispondency, fear , suspicions, paranoia , and all of the other pathologies prevents awareness of our original spirit nature and have leead to all of the well-practiced skills for "doing unto to others before they do unto you".

Thanks, Satan , literally for nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:49 AM

Well, livin' right up the road from Washington, D.C., I don't have to look too far to see what Satan has provided. Then it there's any doubt, one only need read the front page of the Wsahington Post for reinforcment.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:06 AM

Perhaps the 10%ers believe that good intentions rule in hell, since the road there is paved with them. It certainly explains how The Bureacracy came to rule the earth.

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:17 AM

HE gave us really cheap, tasteless popular fiction and the world's first fantasy-action hero.

He is also responsible for marketing and for stupid threads.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:21 AM

Amos, does Satan make you post to all the stupid threads too?

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:50 AM

Taliesn; Who gave the Devil an Ego?

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: GUEST,Ordinary Average Guy
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:57 AM

If God is pure good then anything contrary to that good is inherently evil. God did not have to create evil because the very existence of God means the existence of the potential for evil. The next time you attempt to relegate the existence of God to a logical impossibility you might try to use some actual logic.

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 12:09 PM

I might have got this wrong but "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth".
So when God was on his own before he created the Devil and everything else, where was Evil?

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 12:13 PM

In a galaxy far, far away? I'm praying the answer to this vexing question will be found in "Star Trek Nemesis", which is coming soon to a theatre near me.

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 12:13 PM

Taleisn, you seem to have forgotten one fairly central idea to western thought: free will is a good thing. Lucifer is, in fact, the first entity ever to take a stand in favor of self determination. If it weren't for him, we would not have the knowledge of good and evil which is a central part of what makes us human. I daily thank Lucifer for the ability to think for myself. Individual humans, not Lucifer, are responsible for the abuses of free will. Our fears are the price we pay for the right to determine our own lives, rather than obey the senseless dictates of a God who created us to glorify himself.

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 12:21 PM

I don't believe in the 'devil' or in 'hell'.

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 12:24 PM

Throughout human history, "God" in "His" infinite wisdom and love has gifted us with spiritual awareness and divine revelation. Then "Satan" comes along and organizes those divine insights/revelations into religions!! Satan, of course, has our best economic and political interests at heart,
creating religions to ensure that our spiritual revelations have no chance of interfering with these earthly affairs! - posted by LH's friend "chuckle".

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: X
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 12:46 PM

Let's see…He's given me an excuse for all the bad things I've done.

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 12:58 PM

For God's sake, Michelle, figure out how to use this site, will ya? You are posting under my "cookie" which is still on your computer. Go to Quicklinks and "log out". Then "log in" under YOUR name and your codename, whatever they are. Then post.

I can just see it now. I'm in Trinidad for 3 weeks, incommunicado, and "chuckle" is posting away merrily on Mudcat under the name "Little Hawk"...

Boy, I tell ya...

However, I have to say that was a good post. Makes sense to me. Religions created Satan...or Satan created them. But there is no Satan. After all, animals are clearly aware of the Divine...they salute it every morning...but I have NEVER met an animal silly enough to go around worrying about Satan.

Pied Piper - Your logical anaylysis of the contradictions inherent in traditional Christian-Islamic-Judaic religion is excellent. Now if you were to read the book "Conversations With God", you could have a full and highly rational explanation of exactly how what we choose to CALL "good" and "evil" can exist in a spiritually organized reality without the necessity of having a being such as Satan behind half of it. But I bet you would rather be dragged kicking and screaming and cast into a pit of vipers than waste your time reading anything flighty and unreal like that, right?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 01:08 PM

More details please, O Rapterous one (ISDN No, Author)

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 01:25 PM

Okay, hang on. It actually is a very interesting book, regardless of whether or not you believe in God (supply your own definition of what you think the word "God" actually means...).

Be right back.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 01:37 PM

Okay. It's "Conversations With God - book 1", author is Neale Donald Walsch, ISBN 0-399-14278-9 published in 1995. There are other volumes, but volume I is the best to start with, I would think.

With this book, as with any, the thing is not on the one hand to take it as gospel on mere faith or emotionalism...and not on the other hand to deny it out of hand either, on similar bases, because it just sounds like something you don't "believe in"...

...but merely to give what it says careful and patient consideration, and see if it makes some kind of sense. (For instance, I've read the Bible. I found some stuff in it that was horrifying, some stuff in it that was boring, some that was contradictory, some that was interesting, and some that was inspiring, but it did not cause me to become either a "Christian" or an "atheist" as a consequence of reading it).

Good luck.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 01:57 PM

rom "Forum lurker"
(quote)
"Taleisn, you seem to have forgotten one fairly central idea to western thought: free will is a good thing...... "

Ofcourse it is. ;-)

"....Lucifer is, in fact, the first entity ever to take a stand in favor of self determination....."

This highly presumptive intellectual experiement misses one gaping inconsistency ,but do go on. ;-)

"..... If it weren't for him, we would not have the knowledge of good and evil which is a central part of what makes us human..."

Well , if "being human" , a.k.a. "biological life" , is *all* there is to life then this statement of yours sounds pretty damning enough.
I take it to heart , thanks to Eastern?western spiritual teachings ,that there is more to the gift of life and self-determined awareness than just life *imprisoned* in a psychologically hindered , pathologically prone, and limited life-spanned "human" existence. If you have *no* concept of a purely spiritual , read: *supra*-human "handicapped", soul then you'll never appreciate the sense of being cheated one has when they realize that all this "humaness" needn't have happened.
More to the point , all this "humaness" is *not* our true and wholey *free* Natural state of being.
This is more than hinted in the so-called cunundrum of Judeo-Christian tradition of teachings that we are all made "in God's image" yet the One God has no physical body . So this becomes an irresolvable contradiction until one realizes our original "natural" state of being which is sentient and self-aware matrices of light which would be in God's image. Without the barrier of a humna conciousness "complete" inter-connectiveness with all life "is" the *most* free and natural state of being. It is our inheritance and our destiny. If you inwardly "know" this ,even intuitively ,then you come to comprehend why "all" behavioral indulgences in "human appetites" are but baggage and balast. and practice or ideology that convinces us otherwise cheats us.
Something to do with Christ's words while he was being crucified of " Forgive them for they know not what they do".

(quote)

"... I daily thank Lucifer for the ability to think for myself....."

Well I rather doubt you actually do this and is said more for hyperbole's sake, but you know not of what you speak as to whom to thank for your true sense of elf-awareness and determination. It sounds like you're going to next dredge up that tired old debating point hopelessly lost in non-spiritual thinking " Well ,without darkness ,how can we find the light" ;-)
To which the answer is " You asume you need the contrast of darkness when there are many colors radiant in the spectrum more than equipped to do the job". ;-)

(quote)
".... Individual humans, not Lucifer, are responsible for the abuses of free will... "

You're right in that we "are" all repsonsible for the "choices" we make in our thoughts and deeds , but the Devil's Advocate is a more than willing participant.
I am reminded of that great line from "The Usual Suspects":
(quote)
" the greatest trick the devil ever played was in convincing you he didn't exist"

(quote)
".....Our fears are the price we pay for the right to determine our own lives, rather than obey the senseless dictates of a God who created us to glorify himself. "

Where exactly did you get this Neitzchian or Allistar Crowley-esque diatribe from? What an abyssmally misinformed ideology that reeks of the human arrogance that is the soul's sorrow to have to endure.

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 02:48 PM

Hell: It's not the heat, it's the humidity.

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 05:39 PM

Well, it's certainly not the humility... :-)

Some good stuff there, Taliesn. I agree that assuming Lucifer is the source of one's free will is a most peculiar assumption, and presupposes a very strong belief in Lucifer in the first place...which is itself a powerful form of religious faith. If there actually is a being out there called Lucifer, I hope he rewards his adherent, Forum Lurker, fulsomely for his loyalty and devotion.

And you're quite right, I think. The "image" of God in which we are made is an image of thought, consciousness, self-awareness, and self-creation...NOT a physical form. It could easily inhabit any or no physical form as it chose to. You can also refer to all of that "image" as Light or as Love, if you want to simplify it. One who is self-creative obviously HAS free will. That applies to each one of us. We didn't need to have it given to us after the fact by Lucifer or anyone else. The fascinating thing about physical life is the stark limitations it places upon the use of free will...and that, I think, is why souls long to experience it. It makes for a very interesting and challenging game to play, unlike a game where there are no limitations and anything goes. That soon gets boring and pointless.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 06:49 PM

So why is he wandering about in the courts of Heaven having reasonable discussions with God in Job?

Satan, as a figure in a story, has a lot in common with other characters in stories such as Prometheus and Loki. Prometheus, in Greek myth, is generally seen as a good thing, because of the unreasonable way Zeus was behaving at the time. He was responsible for the creation and education of human beings, and the gift of fire, which was probably inclusive of the fire of the spirit as well as its external manifestation. (I have seen one retelling for children which makes him more Loki or Satan-like, by an author who had previously published illustrated Bible stories, and thought opposing the leader of the gods is always wrong.) Loki had a similar position in Norse mythology, with a similarly badly behaved leader of the gods - look at how Odin describes himself in "The words of the High One". Both came to a bad end, though Prometheus was released. Loki wasn't, because a) Odin was a god of kings and warriors, who couldn't be doing with subversive deities who shout out what the toffs are doing wrong, and b) he was written down by Christians who had already conflated him with Satan.

Satan does not give fire, though the expression "the fruit of the tree" seems analogous with Kipling's Red Flower (musical interlude for Pratchett's Librarian). Jewish teaching regards the 'evil impulse' as positive, having made Adam and Eve adults rather than children. The similarities, especially Satan's presence in heaven in Job, suggest to me that there is a common literary ancestor, expressing something which humans need to hear, and that there is no such being.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Peg
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:00 PM

life is way too short to worry about where we're going to go when we die.

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:02 PM

Yeah, Penny. I think that Satan, Lucifer, Loki, etc...can serve a useful purpose as archetypes, symbolizing various aspects of the human character. As you point out, Zeus and Odin were capricious gods, with many of what we term human failings. Sounds like people were crafting deities in their own psychological image to me, which is not surprising. If rats had a somewhat advanced civilization, they'd probably do the same thing, only they'd have rat gods.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Gareth
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:06 PM

A buyer of the Souls of Gearge W Bush Jnr, Margaret Thathcher etc.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: GUEST,Tom Hamilton
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:39 PM

Satan and Jesus was walking down the road when Jesus bent down and pick up a rock and he said "With this rock, I'll build my church." And Satan said "I'll help you."

If it was for Satan God and us Christians wouldn't have a job trying to save you sinners out there from Hell.
God Bless you cause that's his job

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:03 PM

Well, now, that's an interesting assertion, Tom. In other words, you can't have a good story without a conflict, right? That's what I was told in public school by all my English teachers, and it's pretty
much true as far as I can see!

Now the question is, WHO is going to save us from WalMart???

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:09 PM

Were it not for Satan, the adjective "satanic" would have no referent.

CC the Incredibly Profound

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: The Pooka
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:41 PM

Wow, Penny. Great stuff. Erudite. No fair makin' us actually *think*.

Bobert, y'know, re that Warshington Post o' yourn: some say Satan's the Editor. :) [DougR? You there?]

Amos, are you attaching demonic provenance to the fine literary works of muh man Stephen King? Careful, friend. The Wendigo is watching...

Pied Piper, "Who gave the Devil an Ego?" I think it was Ayn Rand. (At a minimum, she sure gave Ego a bad name.)

Guest Ordinary Average Guy - NOW look at the fine mess you've gotten me into! "The next time you attempt to relegate the existence of God (to a logical impossibility..." The *next* time? It had never OCCURRED to me to engage in so futile an exercise. Now, of course, I'll have to try it! Damn it all --- no wait, make that, Golly -- don't tell a kid not to put peas up his nose. He wouldn't have thought of it on his own. :)

(Pooka ducks & runs like the Divil from the Excise Man...)

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: nickp
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 05:56 AM

Now we ARE talking Hell and NOT Hull......

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:31 AM

But what exactly is free will and does it really exist or is it merely an illusion?

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:58 AM

Maybe Satan is the Big Guy's personal trainer! Maybe he's the outlet for heavenly testosterone - keeps the archangels fit and primed and busy! Or just maybe we should ask not what Satan has done for us, but rather what we have done for Satan! Like posting silly threads on this site...

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: The Pooka
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 12:25 AM

Bagpuss - 'is free will an illusion' - now that is a tough one, seriously. I ain't no quantum mechanic; but I gather that the cumulative weight of scientific findings suggests: Yeah. This answer is abhorrent to us, of course. Yet, there it is. Well. Maybe. (Again with the Uncertainty principle, oy.) / But then, if what we call "matter" is an illusion, as seems definitely to be the case, then why *shouldn't* "free will" be? (And, does it Matter?) / Of course if our Will ain't Free, then the initial conditions of the universe are compelling me to send this post. Which does seem questionable, I grant you. (Freely.) :)

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere)
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 12:22 PM

Thanks for the "erudite description", Pooka - but it's not really - I've read a lot of stories, starting with a child's version of the theft of Iduna written by Elizabeth Clark, which made Loki rather like Hermes, and likeable. Other books contributing to the above are a set of Viking verses, in translation by Auden, and, I think, Rabbi Blue, plus the Bible.

Looking up Loki on the Internet, though, I find that some courses go down the same byways, plus one intersting point - in Icelandic or Danish houses, an offering would be made to Loki by putting the skin of boiled milk in the fire. This was described by one writer as the dregs. Such is the distancing of those with fridges from the realities of the past. My mother used to scald the milk to keep it overnight in the larder - in the morning it had lovely thick creamy skin, a bit like clotted cream. Dregs! A positive delicacy, much fought over in our house.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 12:39 PM

Guest Penny: I lloked up 'Loki' on the internet, took the most interesting looking link, and ended up back here.
That's the problem with circuitous logic!

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 06:29 PM

Which search engine were you using? I use Google, and found, along with some programmers and gamers, ironfounders etc, a variety of interesting pagan sites - the course notes I came across when searching for Loki and Prometheus in the same search term - there's even a free essay available.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:55 PM

Well he gave me a sartorial idea (or two)

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 07:31 AM

he gave us seven deadly sins to enjoy

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 07:32 AM

Oh yes and something called "country and western". Boy does he/she have a lot to answer for.

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 09:38 AM

I am very surprised that no one has mentioned one of the most salient facts about Beelzebub.

He is always recognized as an honorable gentleman. He only provides what we ask for, at a price we are willing to pay. If we don't agree, he goes away without argument.

As an agnostic [thereby also questioning the existence of Satan] it is clear that we get exactly what we ask for but we had damn well better be exact in our request or we will inevitably run into trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: libertarian
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 10:05 AM

Actually I think the question should be what has this mythological god ever done for us? I mean, if you actually read the bible, he sanctions a lot of things he supposedly is against like adultery, rape, cannibalism, lying, killing, injustice, indecency, murder, slavery, and so forth, I mean if people really knew what was printed in their bible I think they probably would be appalled at this creature called god, I know I was.

Unfortunately, you have a lot of lemmings/sheeple who will blindly follow whatever they feel is right without questioning anything, or really finding out what the teachings really are.

Since doing the research, and really reading, not interpreting the bible from cover to cover, I have learned what kind of vile, filth this christian god teaches. I for one am glad I did read this book and was able to discover all the fairy tales and filth in this book, so I can point it out to all who want to learn.

Here's hoping more people get out from under the shackels of religion and government and start practicing their free will. You can not be either religious or in government and have free will.

Subject: RE: BS: What Has Satan Ever Done for Us?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 10:57 AM

I thought he was a lot like Humpty Dumpty....and took a big fall