Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3]


Mummers and Racism

Related threads:
What's a Mummers Play? (87)
Lyr Req: Mummers Songs (30)
Let's talk about humpenscrumps (9)
Traditional Mummers (Phila.) Songs (11)
Suggestions for a Steampunk Mummers Play (38)
Wordless mummers? (5)
Mummers plays in Kent (8)
Folklore: Chaddleworth Mummers' Play (8)
New opera - Make Room For Mummers (2)
Mummers and Masks (Canada) (8)
Shakespeare Mummers (13)
Kent: Hoodeners and Mummers (3)
Mumming plays (32)
Yorkshire Mummers Teams (7)
mummers in larkrise (51)
Mummers on Countryfile (5)
A one man mummers play (11)
Miskin Mummers Playwrights (9)
(origins) Origins: Mummer's dance (8)
mostly for fun: What is a mummer? (29)
Folklore: US Mummers Play Script Request (11)
Instant Mummers Play: Just Add...? (26)
Help: Research on Mumming in Ireland (8)
Help with costumes for mummers play! (12)
Help: Mummer play info? (16)
A timely mummers play! (4)
Lyr/Chords Req: Mummer's Dance-not McKennitt' (7)
Lyr Req: Wexford Mummer's Song (14)
Lyr Req: The Mummers' Dance (4)
Mummer from the Caribbean 'John Canoe'? (4)
Lyr Req: Wexford mummer's song (8)


McGrath of Harlow 11 Dec 04 - 09:16 AM
GUEST 11 Dec 04 - 09:37 AM
The Shambles 11 Dec 04 - 10:09 AM
GUEST 11 Dec 04 - 10:15 AM
GUEST 11 Dec 04 - 10:22 AM
The Shambles 11 Dec 04 - 10:42 AM
Azizi 11 Dec 04 - 11:26 AM
GUEST 11 Dec 04 - 12:12 PM
GUEST 11 Dec 04 - 12:20 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Dec 04 - 01:10 PM
Azizi 11 Dec 04 - 02:11 PM
GUEST 11 Dec 04 - 02:38 PM
Bunnahabhain 11 Dec 04 - 03:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Dec 04 - 03:51 PM
Strollin' Johnny 11 Dec 04 - 04:09 PM
Malcolm Douglas 11 Dec 04 - 04:39 PM
wysiwyg 11 Dec 04 - 04:46 PM
GUEST 11 Dec 04 - 04:51 PM
The Shambles 11 Dec 04 - 04:58 PM
Azizi 11 Dec 04 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,Bad Cuilionn...no biscuit 11 Dec 04 - 05:41 PM
The Shambles 11 Dec 04 - 05:50 PM
DMcG 11 Dec 04 - 06:09 PM
GUEST 11 Dec 04 - 07:35 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 11 Dec 04 - 09:24 PM
musicmick 11 Dec 04 - 10:46 PM
George Papavgeris 12 Dec 04 - 03:17 AM
The Shambles 12 Dec 04 - 03:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Dec 04 - 05:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Dec 04 - 06:34 AM
The Shambles 12 Dec 04 - 11:02 AM
musicmick 12 Dec 04 - 04:53 PM
GUEST 12 Dec 04 - 05:35 PM
Joybell 12 Dec 04 - 05:41 PM
Once Famous 12 Dec 04 - 05:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Dec 04 - 05:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Dec 04 - 05:52 PM
Once Famous 12 Dec 04 - 05:55 PM
Joybell 12 Dec 04 - 06:58 PM
musicmick 13 Dec 04 - 02:08 AM
The Shambles 13 Dec 04 - 03:40 AM
The Shambles 13 Dec 04 - 03:54 AM
DMcG 13 Dec 04 - 03:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Dec 04 - 04:38 AM
The Shambles 13 Dec 04 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,Barrie Roberts 13 Dec 04 - 03:12 PM
The Shambles 13 Dec 04 - 07:51 PM
GUEST,petr. 13 Dec 04 - 07:59 PM
Cluin 14 Dec 04 - 03:08 AM
Cluin 14 Dec 04 - 03:09 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 09:16 AM

Of course it might be that it was just an excuse cooked up by someone who didn't like the Mummers for other reasons...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 09:37 AM

So how many of you have read the excellent "Demons of Disorder: Early Blackface Minstrels and Their World" by musicologist Dale Cockrell?

I'd like to add that none of the examples cited by defenders of blackface to justify it's continued use despite the profoundly hurtful effect it has on the American and British black citizens who see it, are examples of traditions with such racially charged aspects to it, like the blackface minstrel tradition does.

When I think of examples of blacks beind deeply offended by the use of blackface by whites in performances, I think of an article I once read by a white woman about the black American author, Alice Walker. She (the author of the article) was attending a women's conference in California with Alice Walker, where they were both scheduled to appear as speakers.

The first day of the conference, during the dinner, a group of women performers came into the dining area dressed as "demons" and went through the crowd, dancing and performing acrobatics. Several of them used blackface make-up strikingly similar to the blackface used in minstelry. Alice Walker, after about 6 hours of highly charged conversation with the performers and conference organizers over why it mattered so much to Alice, why it was so hurtful to her, and how the use of it at the conference and the performers' and organizers' steadfast refusal to believe that there were good, legitimate reasons in our day and age NOT to use blackface in performance.

Alice Walker left the conference, and denounced the conference organizers and performance troupe for their failure to comprehend the complexities of race relations, and their refusal to accept responsibility for alienating the black communities they always claim they want to work with on the greater issues of the day.

Want to keep segregration in the arts going? Want to alienate black people and keep them from trusting whites?

Keep insisting stubbornly on your "right" to keep using blackface in your performances.

You can come up with all the justifications you want. But just don't expect any sympathy, and don't come whining around the folk community when you aren't accepted and your tradition being rejected as racist and backward, when you perform in blackface in public.

'Cause homey don't play that tune.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 10:09 AM

Folk dress-up as many things and for many reasons. It just may be possible using this reasoning to make a case that 'vicars and tarts' parties - damage the church or encourage prostitution.

Now stopping these themed parties is not going to have bloody effect on religous bigotry or the real problems of prostitution. Nor will attemps to ban mummers etc, have any real effect of the all too real problems of racism - which is not confined to people with black skin anyway.

The case has been made here by very informed posters that there is a big historical difference in the reasons why mummers 'blacken-up' and the reasons why minstrels do (or used to). I am quite sure that most black people can appreciate this difference and can see that attempts to combat racism are actually set back by this simplistic and OTT political correctness, based on ignorance.....

Notting Hill and other carnivals would be very strange affairs indeed if the black and other participants were inhibited from dressing-up and pretending to be anything from aliens to bumble bees.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 10:15 AM

And let me also add that the negativity surrounding the use of blackface by mummers in the US is not historically the same as it's use in Britain, not because the slaves were in the US, but because Jim Crow is a political phenomenon unique to the US, and includes the complexities of class among whites who performed blackface minstrel shows, it's largely white working class audiences, and the contexts of the changing world of race and class roles in the 19th century.

The burlesque characters of the minstrel traditions also lampooned the affectations and hypocrisy of the growing middle class. By 1843 in the US, when the Virginia Minstrels appeared on the scene, the blackface minstrel tradition was already far from it's folk theatrical roots of mumming, and was rapidly developing into a new form of musical entertainment known as the minstrel shows, the debauched versions of "clean" middle music concert entertainment of the middle and upper classes, whose audiences were becoming more middle class than working class--a phenomenon which still plagues the "folk" traditions of Anglos and Anglo Americans down to this very day. By the 1850s in the US, the blackface minstrel show was cleaned up, and it's burlesque and working class aspects largely gone, and it was solid, middle class entertainment. The only aspects of it that weren't cleaned up in the process of the tradition and it's audience changing, were the dark and disturbing racist elements in it. And that is poisonous legacy we all are left with in the US especially, when it comes to looking at this largely white, middle class, extremely racist "entertainment" tradition.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 10:22 AM

Shambles, I can only speak to my knowledge and experience of the US, but the majority of black Americans may or may not know about the "historical differences" being cited here between mumming blackface and minstrel blackface. The point I'm making is so many of them find such "historical" justifications of the continued use of blackface, to be a justification of the continued use of stereotypes that are extremely painful to black Americans.

An excellent recent gauge of how black Americans feel today about this subject, was the extremely negative reaction from the black American community to Spike Lee's film "Bamboozled".

To say that Spike (a black American director from Brooklyn) hit a nerve in his community is quite the understatement.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 10:42 AM

Shambles, I can only speak to my knowledge and experience of the US, but the majority of black Americans may or may not know about the "historical differences" being cited here between mumming blackface and minstrel blackface. The point I'm making is so many of them find such "historical" justifications of the continued use of blackface, to be a justification of the continued use of stereotypes that are extremely painful to black Americans.

Although this view is a valid one (if held by an individual - rather that groups claiming that many people hold this view and to claim to speak for them) - there are equally valid other views. If those expressing this view are not speaking from full knowledge - perhaps they should not make demands of other cultures - from a position of ignorance. Perhaps then - this dressing-up may be able to be seen in its proper context and then be less painful?

Alice Walker is welcome to her view - but she may be wrong. The people appeared to listen and respect her view but they did not have to agree with it. She may also be wrong in thinking that others may feel the same or that she (or her writer friend) any right to speak for anyone but themselves.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 11:26 AM

I would like to join your conversation by first saying that I regret that I never had the pleasure of seeing actual or even videotape of Morris dancers.

As very much an outsider to this tradition, but one who THINKS I might like the dancing sans the blackface, I agree with GUEST [Dec 10, 2004 at 2:08 PM] that "What matters is how the blacking up of mummers faces is perceived by Britain's black population....mummers SHOULD take into account how British blacks feel when they see the mummers in blackface, and not do it. Period. And they should not do it out of consideration for Britain's black minorities."

That being said, I want to re-post an excerpt of a comment that I made in an earlier thread which referred to the custom of "blackening up":

"Last year in one of my scavenger hunts at a used book store, I was pleased to find a 1935 book "The Traditional Dance" {Violet Alford & Rodney Gallop: London; Methuen & Co.} "The Traditional Dance" includes a number of passages on the origin of the term "Morris".
I will quote rather extensively from one of these passages:

"When we were speculating on the origin of the Morris dance in the last chapter we saw that Cecil Sharp, having accepted the theory of Moorish origin [i.e. from the Moors], came later to reject it. His principal reason for doing so was that by 1912 he had come to realize that all over Europe the dance does not stand by itself, but is associated with 'certain strange customs which are apparently quite independent of the dance itself.'. From this he concluded that 'the Morris dance is a development of a pan-European or even more widely extended custom', and that 'faces were not blackened because the dancers represented Moors, but rather the dancers represented Moors because their faces were blackened'.

It never occured to Sharp to connect the Mooris dance with the numerous cermonial combats between 'Christains' and 'Moors', all more or less choreographic in form, which are found throughout southern Europe, from Dalmatia in the east to Portugal in the west. Perhaps he had no opportunity of hearing of them, but a connection with the Morris is evident from their appelation of Morisca,,Morisma, Moreska, Mouriscada or some similar name.

The Moreska, performed every year in September in the Dalmatian island of Korcula {Curzola}, consists of a play and Sword dance prepresenting a combat between two groups of dancers, a White King {Christain] contending with a Black King {Moorish} for the hand of a beautiful slave called Bula. Needless to say, as in all such mock battles, the Christians emerge victorious.

In Spain, the battle of Moors and Christians goes back at least to the twelfth century, one such having been performed in 1137 at the betrothal of Count Ramon Berebguer of Barcelona and Queen Petronila of Aragon. Aragon, as has already been stated, is still to-day [1935] a land of Morisca dances, and a few more striking performances could be found than the Morisma of Ainsa. This takes place in the middle of September every year...."

end of quote.

Given this historical overview, I disagree with the premise that blackening up started as a means of disguise. I also do not feel that simply telling the history of the custom of blacking up would make the experience less offensive to people of African descent and other darker skinned people in the viewing audience.

I agree with the poster who said that some folk traditions should be allowed to evolve. It seems to me that this is one of them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 12:12 PM

Hi Azizi, nice to see your presence below the BS line!

I haven't studied Morris dancing extensively, but my understanding of it is akin to the description you give above, ie that it is rooted in traditions that grew out of Christian European mythology of the Christian vs Muslim Crusades.

It should be considered just as offensive to Arab Muslims as it is to black Britons and black Americans.

Another excellent reason to kill off Morris dancing altogether, IMO. :)

But that is just MY opinion folks (ducking and heading for the asbestos suit).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 12:20 PM

Oops! Above should read "offensive to Arab and African Muslims".

Now then, shall we link these blackface & mumming threads to the Black Irish thread, so we can spread more mythinformation about the Mudcat?

BTW, whomever said that the British didn't have a plantation system in Britain was wrong. The English created a plantation system in Ireland, by sending in the English lords and Scottish lairds and lowland Scots to replace the Irish chieftains.   The British plantation system just didn't use African slaves, but Irish peasants instead. Those lowland Scots planters are today's Ulster Protestants. Many of those planters emigrated to the southern US in the emigrations prior to the Irish famine, and those Scots planters the US' came to be known as the Scotch Irish, and as the 'cracker' culture of the Southern US.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 01:10 PM

Is it odd that people who have never seen a black face dance or play let alone be involved in one are commenting on whether it is racist or not? Is it just as odd that someone in the US is very much against a UK tradition? Even stranger someone seems to be suggesting that black people are too stupid to tell if something is racist or not and need it pointing out to them? Now that I DO find really racist. Perhaps it's just me...

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 02:11 PM

As an African American I believe that I have the experience to comment on the pyschological impact of watching black faced dancers.

The bulk of my post was on one author's decription of the history of that custom.

Does anyone care to comment on that?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 02:38 PM

It isn't just a UK tradition, it crossed the water with the English and became an Anglo American tradition too.

What isn't acceptable though, is white Englishmen doing the blackfaced dancing defining what is racist and what isn't when it comes to blackfaced dancing for the entire world.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 03:06 PM

Guest,
Please stop hiding behind your anonimaty to spread your apparently uneducated opinions. If you wish to have your views respected, let us know how you are and how you have come by your prodigious knowledge and understanding of this subject. If, however you just wish to stir up trouble, find one of the threads about george 'idiot' bush.
Yours, respectfully,
bunnahabhain


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 03:51 PM

Yes, Azizi, one author's decription of the history of that custom is exactly what it was. it does not make it true or not. The true history of the Morris will never be really known. It is, incidentaly, a very snall part of the tradition that blacks up for dance. Primarily border morris. I know of no cotswold or north west tradition (apart from Britannia - who are somewhat of an enigma) who use make up. I think some rapper sword and molly teams do but I'm not sure. I think we are talking here primarily of the mumming and pace-egg plays.

I really would suggest that you experience the tradition as performed in the UK before deciding if it is offensive to people of African descent and other darker skinned people in the viewing audience. From every observation I have had from every ethnic origin possible not one had been negative. Come and find us. See what it is like. Better still get someone to pay for a visit of The Abram Pace Egg Players there:-)

Do it with an open mind and if you still feel it is offensive after you have experienced it then I, for one, will use gray, blue or pink and yellow next year;-)

Cheers

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 04:09 PM

Guest - I don't usually respond to anonymous 'guests' but I'll make an exception, just this once. It was not a suggestion of anything - it was a question pure and simple, a request for information. You don't know me or anything about me, but if you did you'd know that your suggestion that I'm a racist would be grossly insulting if it weren't so ridiculous. Fortunately Azizi has answered eloquently and constructively, and thanks for that Azizi.

Martin, thanks for your charming response - you were a bit slow off the mark but, as usual, you didn't let anyone down. LMAO.

And to anyone else who may have felt offended by my assertion that Mumming's strictly British, of course I'm aware that it exists in other countries - my comments were a tetchy response to Martin's inference that anything non-American is worthless. That's all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 04:39 PM

I would just add that Violet Alford's theories, referred to above, were already out of date when she published them and are not taken very seriously by more recent researchers. It is unsafe to draw conclusions from them, particularly in relation to potentially sensitive issues, and I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the "disguise" aspect, particularly as that wasn't a guess made by folklorists, but the result of asking performers why they did it.

It is also the case that the American experience is very different from the British, and you do need to be careful when drawing analogies between them: many, while they may look fine on paper, will turn out to be misleading (or entirely specious) in practice. A little learning is a dangerous thing. For example, there seems to be an assumption made by a number of contributors to this discussion that Mumming (the British, not American, form) and Morris are the same thing; they are not, though the customs have often overlapped; and that all mummers black their faces. That too is not the case. Some do, some don't, depending on their particular tradition.

No one, I think, is suggesting that traditions should not be "allowed to evolve". It is another matter, however, when traditions are bowdlerised or otherwise mutilated at the behest of outsiders who do not understand them or their context, and may indeed never actually have seen them or met the people of whose lives they are a part. Understanding must always be the first step in matters of this kind, and the onus of justification, and proof, must be on the person who seeks to suppress or to impose change. We have more than one anonymous "guest" here, perhaps; at any rate, innuendo and false analogy do not make convincing arguments, even when repeated.

A very useful resource to consult when looking at aspects of the mummers' play and other traditional drama is Folk Play Research: Traditional Drama Research Group. You will find a lot of material there, and suggestions for further reading which will give a more accurate and balanced impression than is likely to be got from writers like Alford. On the separate (but related) subject of Morris, see also the bibliographies at The English Folk Dance and Song Society.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 04:46 PM

A complicating factor in issues like the ones in this thread is that racism in the UK and USA seem to have different elements and underlying histories. I often get the feeling, when racism is discussed here, that the USers and the Brits are talking about apples and oranges. Both fruit, but not the same fruit. I find that frustrating, and I wonder how many good learning exchanges have been hampered by the rush to be consistent with one's values-- how many lost opportunities there have been to say, "Hm! Didn't know that! Tell me more!"

I don't think our Mudcat threads can do much to address this, nor any oppression, because the medium is not the same as knowing someone face to face and having a frank talk within a corporal relationship. It's usually my hope that in the threads, we might make a little personal progress one by one, in our learning, to give us a better foundation in our peronsal relationships and action in the world. But too often the threads mere reactivity, when the issue really demands a heavy amount of reflection.

I have to say though I am really cherishing Azizi's presence in Mudcatland (and on the planet) and her ability to articulate things not only from the personal view but with a sense of cultural scholarship. I'm sure like all of us she never feels her research on a topic is "done," but Azizi, I always appreciate that you bring a knowledgeable foundation to your ideas, and a desire for a positive result in sharing them. What you have been posting above the BS-line has been valuable to many of us.

~Susan


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 04:51 PM

The arrogance of the British never ceases to astound me.

"It is another matter, however, when traditions are bowdlerised or otherwise mutilated at the behest of outsiders who do not understand them or their context, and may indeed never actually have seen them or met the people of whose lives they are a part."

Which cuts both ways, Malcolm. Times have changed, and those in
Brtian and the US who now so stubbornly resist discontinuing the use of blackface, be it mumming or morris, are being reactionary and racist, regardless of the historic contexts of either. We live in THIS era, in THESE societies. We cannot selectively choose to embrace one traditional aspect of blackface make-up by whites, while simulatneously choosing to ignore another sinister and odious traditional aspect of blackface make-up by whites in both Britain and Ireland, just because we want to keep doing it. Especially considering that the morris dancers can't prove one way or the other that their tradition of using blackface wasn't influenced by the use of the blackface minstrel show tradition common in both Britain and the US in the 19th and early 20th century.

Don't like being labelled a racist? Simple. Stop using and defending the use of blackface in public performance by morris dancers and mummers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 04:58 PM

Azizi

You finish you post with this.

I agree with the poster who said that some folk traditions should be allowed to evolve. It seems to me that this is one of them

But you say that you are in agreement with - What matters is how the blacking up of mummers faces is perceived by Britain's black population....mummers SHOULD take into account how British blacks feel when they see the mummers in blackface, and not do it. Period. And they should not do it out of consideration for Britain's black minorities."

This does not sound like evolution to me. It appears that what you mean by it being allowed to evolve - is that is should be allowed to die out. I certainly feel that both sides should be taking in to account the feelings of all concerned and making a point of being as educated and informed as possible about each other's positions. There seems little point in insisting on one side taking offence - when it is perfectly clear that no offence is intended.

Anyone with any knowledge of mumming plays would be fully aware that it is a tradition that is constantly evolving.

But let us get this straight - it is one side of this argument insisting that the other stops doing something they clearly don't really understand. When mummers are not trying to impose anything on anyone but simply just trying to explain the history of their tradition and what it is and what it is not.

We have gotten rid of our children's cuddly 'Gollywogs' and those on our jam jars and all sorts of other equally silly measures - to avoid giving offence and hopefully no offence is being now made by such things - but the serious aspects of racism remain pretty much as serious and unchanged by all this.

There is now a feeling that enough of this PC silliness is enough. Notice should be taken of this, if the moves towards better understanding of how all victims of racism feel (whatever their colour or race) and measures to address this - are not to be undone.

It is also clear that there is a difference in the way these things are seen on each side of the Atlantic Ocean - and perhaps we can all learn from these differences. It would also be nice to hear the views of some black people from this side of the pond (if we have not already done so).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 05:31 PM

Perhaps rhetorically, I ask who determines when enough [eradication of cultural institutions that may not have been meant to be racist but have that effect]are enough? It seems that we are in a time when people can say that such efforts should be halted because it is simply the PC police having their way, when in actuality it is much more than that.

Malcolm Douglas, you wrote "I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the "disguise" aspect, particularly as that wasn't a guess made by folklorists, but the result of asking performers why they did it."
Are the opinions of contmporary folks a valid way to determine the origins of customs as old as Morris dancing? Couldn't the reasons for the performances have changed or been forgotten over time.

Isn't linguistics one valid way of suggesting the origin of customs? How do contemporary respected authorities account for the Moorish sounding name for this dance genre?

Also, Malcolm, I went to the first website that you recommended and read the Introduction. I do intend to read more about this subject, but I must say that I had a visceral feeling of something that I can't adequately describe with words when I saw the photographs of the black faced actors and read the description. I feel the same thing when I read hsitorical accounts of White Americans who performed as Black faced minstrels.

The whole history of African slavery in the "New world" slavery is so hurtful to me that I go through periods when I can't even study it. But similar to what I heard Jewish people say about the Holocaust, it's important to study the causes of slavery so that we can make sure something as horrendous as this never happens again. It is also important to study the continuing effects of African slavery in Europe, North America, and the Caribbean.

As I said in an earlier posts, the more I read about Morris dancing, I feel that I might very well like the performances without the black face performances. If there are Black people who have watched the black faced versions of Morris dancing and not had a problem with it, perhaps they are emotionally stronger than me-and perhaps not.

---
Thanks to all for my welcome on Mudcat. I appreciate your contributions too!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST,Bad Cuilionn...no biscuit
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 05:41 PM

Aye, traditions should be allowed to evolve, and I applaud both the "Greenface" suggestion and the idea of seizing the "teachable moment" to help an audience understand that blackface (at least in some traditions) was merely the lowest-budget disguise available to many working-class/peasant mummers.

The central tension of many Mummers' Plays, the "archetypical battle" of a British Hero and a Turkish Knight, is another item ripe for good-natured tweaking and worthy of ongoing research & debate.
Two years ago, our local (Maine, USA) play included "Sir George of Texas" and a Turkish Knight-type character who sang little ditties like "Osama-enchanted evening..." Bad puns flew thick and fast, and every character was made to look equally silly in the eyes of the audience. The "quack doctor" figure--the one who typically raises the fallen fighters back to life at play's end-- treated them like naughty children who had forgotten their better natures, and reminded the audience (in rhymed couplets, of course) that education & understanding are the best medicines for the illness of war-mongering. The play was grand fun and well-received by a politically diverse audience.

It is their ability to bring social mores and inequities into the limelight that makes Mummers' Plays so vital & dynamic. (Hmmm, "limelight..." Maybe that's another good reason to opt for Greenface?) While other folk performance forms such as Morris Dancing may lack the "message" aspect of the plays, there may still be ways to playfully finesse or interpret the use of blackface and other "questionable" aspects & symbols--for example, a jester/joker/makeroom character can interrupt and play "professor" for a minute, with enough humour to hold & keep the audience.

We've used the Mummers' Play format to address all sorts of local political & social issues, all while maintaining a traditional form and (mostly) traditional dialogue, gleaned from scripts in the aforementioned Folk Play Research website. Rather than getting upset & feshing ourselves about clueless onlookers and "troublemakers" who don't understand the tradition, let's continue to have fun with the genre and its creative possibilities!

--Cuilionn


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 05:50 PM

Won't the 'Greenface' be seen as an insult to Irish folk and won't others insist on equally numbers of 'Orangefaces'?

This is how silly things become - if we allow it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 06:09 PM

Don't forget if we did adopt 'Greenface' (or 'Blueface' ... I bet there's some group that upsets) we can still look forward to many years of complaints about the Christian/Turkish Knights (offensive to religions and also racist, perhaps), the way St George wins the King of Eygpt's daughter (possible sexism), the man-woman character in some plays/dances (gays, trans-sexuals and who knows who else) ...

Yes, happy times are ahead!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 07:35 PM

Boys, you are full of it. Greenface upsetting the Irish? Come on, lay off the stupid, hurtful stereotypes.

When you are beat you are beat, and when you are wrong, you are wrong.

There is no defense for any white person performing in blackface in "historic traditional contexts" like this in today's world. Deal with it. If you love the tradition, you will find a way to renew it in a way that is respectful of all people, not just your own.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 09:24 PM

I agree with Shables.
some people just look for reasons to be offended.
Azizi-How can a white man wearing black make up on his face offend you?
I am white, if you put white make up on your face I would not be offended.
If I took part in a play or show etc, and shaved my head to play the part of a bald character, would this be offensive to bald men?
Is wearing a false beard on stage, offensive to people with beards?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: musicmick
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 10:46 PM

Ah, there is nothing so amusing as social critic defending his own traditions. Of course, blackface is offensive to black people. The "tradition" may or may not be malicious but it is not their tradition. We faced this same situation in Philadelphia where we have held a Mummers Day Parade every New Years Day for centuries (The practice originated with the Romans, by the way). When these traditions began, America and England were not the pluralistic states they have become. The dominant ethnicity (white, protestant) was free to say whatever it wished to about other peoples without fear of offending. So, in the USA, we had Minstral Shows, Wild West Shows and the like. We still call the NFL team in our capitol, the Redskins, and we pretend that we don't mean any offense by it. OH, every once in a while, some sourpuss tribe complains but we don't pay 'em no mind. After all, we have tradition on our side.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 03:17 AM

Well as a Greek, I was proud to be invited to play the role of the Turkish Knight at the Herga Mummers; and will do it again.

But I think we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Word is that Bob Fox and Benny Graham's show about coals (title "How're you off for coals today" or something like that) is also about to be banned, because it shows so many blacked up faces that it can give rise to offence...

And by extension, anyone caught not to have washed too thoroughly may also be prosecuted.

Tanning products will be outlawed too.

What a load of small round objects suspended between the legs of a male.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 03:39 AM

The issue is not one of racism anymore. Political Correctness has allowed the issue to become one of colour, and consequently of no use to anyone. Whatever colour you paint your face (for whatever reasons) risks upsetting someone - (possibly). Unless perhaps you paint your face in Billy Connolly's favourite colour - beige......

Colours are facts, if they have painful associations for some folk, it is regrettable but it is hardly the fault of the colour, is it?

If someone tells me that they are offended or hurt because I don't drive a black car or that I don't paint my house black - am I an insensitive racist if I don't immediately buy a new car and go out and get tins of paint? Or is the fault possibly with them? I strongly suggest that it is the latter. Its not the paint's fault. Does the fact that Henry Ford only made cars in black - make him a racist?

It is time for less demands on each other and time for some common sense and understanding. Hearing someone's objections is a good thing but choosing not to act on these objections is also a choice. Calling people names because they do not do as you wish them to do - is hardly helpful to better value and understanding of each others culture and traditions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 05:52 AM

I'm begining to see a distinct pattern of US vs UK feelings here. Is it possible that the play does not translate well across the Atlantic? I keep saying I have performed the play countless times in front of racialy diverse audiences and never had a bad reation. I was onced asked by a group of young black lads why we black up. When I told them that the origins were lost in time but it was possiby related to the ancient tradition or possible to anonimoty one said to the others 'See. Told you it wasn't because they all wanted to be black!' We all fell about laughing. That is how light hearted it is.

Musicmic (The practice originated with the Romans, by the way). Says who? The greeks pre date that. I am sure that other peoples made to perform plays before that. How can you say wih such surety that the romans started it when all the scholars who have studied this for years have never agreed on a single origin?

Cheers

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:34 AM

Sorry - got called away mid post to have my non PC breakfast of bacon, egg and black pudding. Just checking my last post. reation=reaction. made to perform = made up to perform, and is there such a word as surety? Certainty would certainly be better:-)

Anyway, where was I? Oh yes. Guest who says When you are beat you are beat, and when you are wrong, you are wrong. There are no winners, losers, rights or wrongs in this argument. One thing is certain though. Both the argument and the mumming play will be going on long after you have been forgotten. Unless of course you do something memorable, like stop hiding behind the black face of the anonymous trouble maker;-) No chance!

Perhaps taking the US vs UK attitudes thing further we are onto something? We all know the US attitude at the top. We are right, everyone else is wrong. Perhaps Guest is really, oh no!, Guest W Bush!!! Arrrrrggghhhh. Stop mumming now lads. We are about to be invaded. We have been given the opportunity to give up our weapons of mass racism...

C'mon US catters. Help stop your government interfering in everyne elses business:-)

Cheers

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 11:02 AM

i>There seems little point in insisting on one side taking offence - when it is perfectly clear that no offence is intended.

Equally there is litle point in insisting that one side should not take offence - when is is clear that offence is being taken.

But I have yet to see much firm evidence of actual offence being taken by these traditions in the UK, especially when and when explanation is given.

Perhaps those who are said to be possibly offended are too busy in the UK, trying get a decent place to live, trying a decent job or promotion on their merits or to get their children a decent education or prevent them from being picked on by the police?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: musicmick
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 04:53 PM

Dave, the practice may have been started by the Philistines, for all I know. Here, in Philadelphia, we were told it was the Romans. If it is important to you, I'll get a friendly folklorist to look it up. The point is, at best, peripheral. The real question is trad v. bad. It is not easy for any of us to employ empathy when one of our time honored rituals is criticised. WE know that we are not racists and we don't understand why we have to give up our traditions to appease persons or groups who take offence at them. And it doesn't make any difference which side of the ocean one lives. Gingoistic generalities
do not elevate these discussions. I have lived in Ireland and the USA and I have worked in England and Scotland and I can assure you that. when it comes to self serving statements we are all brothers under the thin skin.

                      Mike


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 05:35 PM

No black people i know would give a fuck about mummers having black faces.
They think all this PC banning christmas stuff, is over the top, and is detrimental to race relations. Only white idiots could dream up such nonsense.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 05:41 PM

Well you don't need me, but just to add another voice. One from a country of usually easy-going live-and-let-live folks. I can't seem to get past the fact that this whole discussion, and it's a good one, began with:
A bunch of BRITISH fellas - carrying on an old, possibly ancient BRITISH tradition - in BRITIAN.
I'll grant you that Britian has not always kept their ideas to themselves in the past, but it seems to me that here we have them minding their own business. There was no suggestion that British Mummers were about to impose their ideas,uninvited, on American audiences.
The tradition of Folk-theatre is understood extremely well by the people of the UK, it seems to me. I can't buy the idea that some Americans feel that, without even understanding this tradition, they have the right to tell them to change or stop it.
I only speak for myself, you understand, as an observer from Australia, but I'm fairly well aquainted with English folklore, theatre, folk-plays and traditions. I am also fairly well aquainted with American folklore and 19th century American theatre and songs. I am married to an American who understands the American perspective on a personal level.
So that's my two bob's worth. Cheers, Joy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 05:41 PM

Stop painting your face black. Your mummer tradition is stupid.

Paint your ass instead.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 05:50 PM

Not important at all to me, Mike. It was you who stated the 'fact' in question in the first place:-) Before talking about Jingoistic generalities and self serving statements check out you are not making them!

I fully agree that we are all brothers under the skin though. It seems to me however that some skins are a lot thinner than others. Tollerance is a two way thing and a bit of give and take from both parties in a dispute will go a long way to settling cultural differences. 'Stop doing that because it offends me' will serve neither cultural tollerance or racial integration. It is a step on the slope to the witch hunt mentality of everyone believing what the 'authorites' says to the exclusion of all other points of view.

I fully agree that a VERY small minority may take offence at many things. Does that mean that the majority should stop doing it? If I came to the US and took offense at you driving on the 'wrong' side of the road would you stop? I think not. On the subject of US vs UK attitudes I think you should read the 'Black Britons and Folk Music' thread. It has been a bit of an eye-opener for me. I never realised that race was so much more of an issue in the US than it is here.

BTW I have also lived and worked all over the UK and Europe. I worked in the West Indies for a short spell where not only did I see a white face pace-egg play but also had the dubious pleasure of being called a 'White Nigger', whatever one of those is. I have never worked in the US but have lived with relatives in Illinois and St Louis for short times.

Listen to both sides of every argument and accept that while my rights should never take precident over anothers neither should they be deemed second class for politically expedient reasons.

Cheers

Dave


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 05:52 PM

BG:-) Missed Mr G's suggestion while I was typing. Perfect solution I reckon!

Thanks once again for a bit of humorous sanity, Martin.

Cheers

Dave


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 05:55 PM

OK, Dave.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:58 PM

A parrable:
A dear friend of mine once proved to me that my wearing of a blue dressing gown could drive him to killing himself.
(He was feeling defensive about a habit of his, but that's beside the point).
The agument ended with him saying miserably, "And it just might be that my mother was wearing a blue dressing gown the last time I saw her and now she's dead!"
Me, "Was she wearing a blue dressing gown last time you saw her?" DF, "No, but she MIGHT have been!"

His mother had recently died, and he hadn't got to say goodbye. She'd died in his home country a long way away.
My friend's pain, anger and grief were real and understandable but the logic button was stuck in the off position. False connections and stuck logic buttons can be a terrible combination, I reckon. Cheers, Joy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: musicmick
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 02:08 AM

It seems evident that no amount of argument will blunt your disregard for the feelings of outsiders who could not be expected to understand or appreciate the subtlties of your folk rituals. You can always find a perfectly valid reason to negate any objections. Here are a few more generalized examples that will, I hope, be less accusatory in nature and, thus, more condusive to discussion.
Rituals and rememberances are, often, retellings of epic or historical events and these events are, typically, military and heroic. Our histories are marked by conflicts, wars, conquests and defenses. Our enemies in these contests are demonized and their destruction is celebrated. These celebrations remain long after the specific events are forgotten, long after the animosities that that they commemorate are forgotten. So, "Rockaby Baby" has lost its political relevance even to those who are aware that it ever had any.
I have no idea where your blackface tradition was born or what it originally meant. Nor do I suggest that it is currently employed as a tool of racial disrespect. I can, however, offer a paralel that involves neither British custom nor Black/White relations.
This year, Mel Gibson released a filmed passion play depicting the death of Jesus. There was a hue and cry from the Jewish community protesting its release. Mr. Gibson and a sizable segment of the Christian world countered these protests with arguments not unlike yours. In a cacophony of accusation and reaction, including the possably irrelevant preachings of Mr. Gibson's father, the real reason for the protests were lost in the shouting. Here's the skinny.
Passion plays have been a staple in Europe for centuries. In fact, one town (I can't spell or pronounce its name)makes a decent percentage of their tourist income from their regular presentations.
I have no idea whether or not those townsfolk are anti-semitic. I do know that, in many countries, passion plays have been followed by pogroms perpetrated by inflamed, inspired peasants. Jews, who have been the victims of these atrocities, are more than a little aprehensive about their presentation. Let's face it, European Jews have an understandable edginess about some Christian traditions.
Can you doubt that Africans have similar wariness about White traditions?

          Mike


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 03:40 AM

Many traditions have been simply trampled (along with their people) throughout history. This is not pleasant - but it is a fact.

There seems little point in continuing this tradition.

It is time to try to understand and to celebrate our diffences. Music does this - perhaps it is time to concentrate a bit more on the uniting aspects of music making ans a little less on the more problematic aspects of tradition?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 03:54 AM

A Bumbling Englishman


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 03:55 AM

Passion plays have been a staple in Europe for centuries. In fact, one town (I can't spell or pronounce its name)makes a decent percentage of their tourist income from their regular presentations.
I have no idea whether or not those townsfolk are anti-semitic. I do know that, in many countries, passion plays have been followed by pogroms perpetrated by inflamed, inspired peasants. Jews, who have been the victims of these atrocities, are more than a little aprehensive about their presentation. Let's face it, European Jews have an understandable edginess about some Christian traditions.


An edginess that is certainly well founded in history, agreed. So the question is what is to be done? Should Oberammergau abandon its tradition (together with a major part of its income, as you point out)? Perhaps it should change the story? Either seems more likely to inflame the more extremist Christians than continuing. Or should we do what Malcolm suggested way back when: It is an issue that needs to be addressed carefully in order to avoid misunderstanding and injured feelings ... Understanding must always be the first step in matters of this kind.

It,s worth reflecting on the photo Malcolm linked to and Azizi found disturbing. The first thing to say is that there are two different traditions at work here. In one, all characters in the play are disguised, and that seems to be the case in the post that started that thread. As I said before, as far as I am concerned greening/blueing the face or wearing masks would be an easy way of resolving this issue in keeping with both the sensibilities of observers and with the tradition.

This photo represents the other situation where only certain characters as blacked. In particular the two characters concerned are the Turkish Knight and a sweep.

For my money, both are insensitively made-up for modern tastes in this specific photo, but I see no reason why the sweep in particular should not continue to black-up.

WhenI was a child, you could see these figures at least weekly near where I lived. I have no doubt that in certain places, in both the UK and the US, you can still see them today:

White coal miners with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.
White men delivering coal with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.
White kitchen "skivvies" with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.
White steam engine firemen with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.
Elsewhere, you could also see white oilworkers with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.

So, you see see while I am perfectly happy to agree that a white person blacking up can be (and frequently has been) a racist act, I don't agree that it necessarily is. I wonder, in particular which of our guests have been offended by the racism implied by the sweep characters in the 'Mary Poppins' film?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 04:38 AM

Thanks, Mike. Good argument and very well put. However if, as you say I have no idea where your blackface tradition was born or what it originally meant. Nor do I suggest that it is currently employed as a tool of racial disrespect. Why then are you suggesting it should be stopped? Or have I got that wrong?

The other thing is that the Mumming or Pace Egg or Soul Caking or any other derivation play is neither historic, epic or military. The point is that no-one really knows what it is about. There are parallels drawn with, for instance, St George and his conversion to christianity but those stories are all lost in the mists of legend anyway! It is, and always has been, a growing tradition. For instance I use a 'Lord of the Rings' plastic sword with sound effects in my battle scene. We have had reference to everything from politcal figures to the spice girls! No two plays are ever the same and I suspect that has always been the case. If we change it now surely people in the past have done the same?

The analogy with both Omerammergau and 'The Passion' while having certain validity are not realy applicable in terms of scale. The Mumming play is a tiny localised and, generaly, unwatched bit of nonsense that may or may not go back a few hundred years. The Passion Plays and Mel Gibsons film are based on a religion that is followed by 2 billion people and goes back 2 millenia!

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 02:14 PM

White coal miners with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.
White men delivering coal with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.
White kitchen "skivvies" with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.
White steam engine firemen with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.
Elsewhere, you could also see white oilworkers with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.


How about white jockeys with blackened faces (after riding on a muddy course) ....that has everything to do with race?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 03:12 PM

How about the British tradition (kept up until very recently) of paying a chimney-sweep to attend your wedding, because the presence of a black-faced person was deemed fortunate? What about the fact that many of my neighbours, who are mostly Asian taxi-drivers, eran heavy tips on New Year's Eve by being invited to 'First-foot' at their passengers' homes after midnight. The first-foot tradition revolves around the idea that the first person to set foot in your house after the New Year turns should be a) a stranger, and b)as dark as possible. These seem to imply that there's a longstanding connection in British folk belief between black people and good fortune. Still, if some PC prat wants to abolish it, of course he must be allowed to, in the sacred name of liberality, so often used as a mask for idiocy, bullshit or even concealed hosrility.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 07:51 PM

There are probably many examples but the difference between the way those in the US and the UK view tradition - is demonstrated with words like 'minstrel'....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST,petr.
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 07:59 PM

as I mentioned before, by their own logic, guest above should be offended by the chimney sweep in Mary Poppins.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:08 AM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:09 AM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 28 June 7:52 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.