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Subject: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: tarheel Date: 01 May 07 - 08:06 PM oh hum...the illegal run-aways from Mexico to this country,walked off the job again today to demonstrate how much they are needed here... well,i didnt see nor hear of any American Companies going busted while these illegals tromped the streets waving thier flags,yelling obscenities and just being good for nothing workers,while the rest of Americans not only did the job that they were hired to do,but also take up the slack left by the unlawful act of the illegals...! today,proved that we DO NOT NEED them,if anything! And...By The Way, try doing this on your job any day of the week and watch how fast a Pink Slip falls into your mail box! Tar... |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Bugsy Date: 01 May 07 - 08:20 PM Perhaps it would have been a different story if ALL the illegals in USA walked off the job and marched instead of SOME of them? Just a thought Cheers Bugsy |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: 282RA Date: 01 May 07 - 09:14 PM Surely you're not telling us that illegals can walk off the job and natural citizens can't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Amos Date: 01 May 07 - 09:51 PM Jaysus, Tarheel. Get your facts in a row befofe you open your mouth, eh?? These push-button hatreds of yours are tiresome, IMHO. Here's a rundown on the events of the day which sparked Tar's spume. According to the link, "About 7.2 million illegal immigrants hold jobs in the United States, making up 4.9 percent of the overall labor force, according to a recent study by the Pew Hispanic Center in Washington, D.C. Undocumented workers make up 24 percent of farm workers and hold 14 percent of construction jobs, the study found. The Senate is expected to take up immigration reform before Memorial Day." Most any business can scrape through a day or two with a 5% reduction in force, but I doubt a farm could afford to reduce by 24% for very long. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: tarheel Date: 01 May 07 - 10:26 PM oh amos...oh hum!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Amos Date: 01 May 07 - 10:29 PM Why, how very responsive and germane! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Sorcha Date: 01 May 07 - 10:35 PM Er, tarheel, are you a full blood American Indian native? If not, where did YOUR people come from and WHY????? We are ALL 'immigrants'. Deal with it. PS---this attitude is being a Christian???? "And I say unto you, do unto others as you would have done unto yourselves. If you are smote on the cheek, turn the other cheek." Yet another...."In my Father's house there are many mansions. Yet tho we see through a glass darkly." Perhaps these immigrants just live in another mansion? One without running water like yours perhaps? George Bernard Shaw wrote a damn good book called 'Why I Am Not a Christian'. I think you should read it Chuck. Maybe even underline some of it and dog ear pages. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 May 07 - 10:41 PM I would hate to see the price of produce, if the illegal workers left. They actually are skilled at the task. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Peace Date: 01 May 07 - 11:01 PM Dear Tarheel, fuck off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Bert Date: 02 May 07 - 12:58 AM Human labor is an extremely valuable natural resource. It's a pity that our government is too effing stupid to welcome a cheap supply of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Joe Offer Date: 02 May 07 - 01:21 AM My ancestors would have been illegal, too - if today's laws had been in effect at the time. How about your ancestors, Tarheel? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Liz the Squeak Date: 02 May 07 - 05:35 AM Working to rule and withdrawing illegal labour is always a two edged sword. Working to rule means abiding by ALL rules, not just the ones that suit you. OK, so you may not work overtime, but you may not be allowed that extra 20 mins cigarette break in the afternoons that you've been taking either.. By not turning up to work and parading in public instead, those workers have now given the Immigration board a good idea of how many 'illegals' there are and where they can be found. I'm sure there were several people videoing those parades for reasons other than recording a news event. I wouldn't be at all surprised if suddenly a lot of those who paraded find themselves taking a little trip down south and not coming back. It opens up an interesting question - do those who knowingly employ 'illegal aliens' ever get prosecuted? By employing people at an impossibly low rate, these employers do nothing to improve the lives of their employees and get rich off the back of people who are so desperate that they will take any job at any wage. Tarheel - there may well be fiscal repercussions from this day of inaction, but it won't show up until the books are balanced at the end of the month. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Liz the Squeak Date: 02 May 07 - 05:39 AM I bet if they weren't there for a week or more, you'd soon notice the difference. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 02 May 07 - 08:40 AM "I bet if they weren't there for a week or more, you'd soon notice the difference." But if they weren't here for a year or two, the farms would mechanize and we'd never need them again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Sorcha Date: 02 May 07 - 08:47 AM And the price of food would go up, quality would go down. Price of fuel is going to continue to go up. Of course, we could all go back to subsistence farming? |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 02 May 07 - 09:19 AM In one office I worked in, my boss said he could not come in for a month and nobody would even notice, but if the lowest paid employee stayed away for just a day, the place fell apart and all useful output ceased. It was true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: bobad Date: 02 May 07 - 09:22 AM "But if they weren't here for a year or two, the farms would mechanize and we'd never need them again." There are many operations in growing and harvesting food that cannot be mechanized, if they could they would have been a long time ago - agri-business is in it for the money. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 02 May 07 - 10:30 AM "There are many operations in growing and harvesting food that cannot be mechanized, if they could they would have been a long time ago - agri-business is in it for the money" Agri-Business is in it for the money, and if they had to pay living wages, state and federal unemployment, social security, state industrial accident, some form of health insurance(not to mention possible vacation pay and maternity leave), I'll bet they'd computerize and mechanize a whole lot of things real quick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Grab Date: 02 May 07 - 10:38 AM The problem is fruit picking, where one object (say, a strawberry) must be detected and picked individually without damaging the object or the plant. cannot be mechanized Let's just say "cannot be mechanised until such time as we produce a robot with as good object detection abilities as a human". Such a robot does not yet exist, even in the best computer research labs, and they're getting military-industrial money. Agri-business is unlikely to significantly enhance this research, even if it needs that ability. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 02 May 07 - 11:28 AM But I can remember when they said that about things like tomatoes and grapes, but those crops are harvested routinely with machinery now. Of course, some of the grape harvestors have been sidelined, because the illegal alien wages have gotten so low. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Bill D Date: 02 May 07 - 12:06 PM It's sad that in a 'hot' issue like this, almost everyone seems to gravitate to a "you're either for us or against us" position. Why is it so hard to see that there are multiple sub-issues embedded in this situation? Yes, we ARE almost all either immigrants or descendants of them, but that is hardly a reason for continuously allowing in anyone who, for any reason, decides they want to come here and manages to avoid the legal process. Yes, we need seasonal farm workers and some others....but what we are GETTING are millions of poor, undocumented folks with few skills, who don't speak the language, but require health services and who often resort to crime when jobs are in short supply. There are hospitals whose emergency rooms are at saturation because they are committed to treat everyone, but can't cope with the increase. We have schools who can't provide enough multi-lingual classes and who have multi-cultural discipline problems. Yet, we still want to be a country which is welcoming to diverse cultures and tries to be fair and allow reasonable immigration to honest immigrants from MANY countries. The mathematics is complex, but some obvious parts are simple...we cannot allow unlimited access to everyone who can sneak in! People must be assimilated, not just allowed to create a plethora of mini-ghettos in large cities, and a shadowy sub-culture in rural areas. This is not....or SHOULD NOT...be a matter of political correctness, it should be a matter of fairness tempered by practicality. I see politician everyday now making statements based not on sense, but on what they see as the position that will get them votes...Crap! I am tired of defenses based on just evoking sympathy, or on economics. Yes, 'most' folks we are concerned with are honest and hungry and just trying to survive, and yes, we need some workers to fill certain economic slots, but we cannot absorb everyone who might want to come here! We MUST find a solution that deals will ALL aspects of the issue....and, I'm sorry, but that will mean disappointing some. I could go on for many paragraphs detailing all the sub-issues involved, but you already know most of them, and I have work to do. Please don't try to reduce all of them to some slogan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Amos Date: 02 May 07 - 12:11 PM Yes, we need seasonal farm workers and some others....but what we are GETTING are millions of poor, undocumented folks with few skills, who don't speak the language, but require health services and who often resort to crime when jobs are in short supply. You speaking from a personal head-count here, Bill? Soounds like one of those logical fallacies you are fond of -- sweeping generalizations. And a couple of others. A. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 02 May 07 - 12:16 PM Bill--I agree with everything you've said here. One of the things that puzzles me is, often many of the folks who constantly defend the environment are the same people who want to throw open the gates for poor immigrants. Most people have sympathy for the people, but more people in America certainly will place a greater strain on resources. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Peace Date: 02 May 07 - 12:38 PM Globalization is helping NO one except the rich. Understand that and you'll understand why poor people wish to go to better places. (Folks rob banks because that's where the money is.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Bill D Date: 02 May 07 - 12:39 PM "You speaking from a personal head-count here, Bill? " Why, no, Amos...I am speaking in response to many, many stories from news reports detailing those problems from government agencies, school districts and interviews with hospital workers and others directly affected...why do you ask? Do you think *I* would just invent those stories? Do you require that I post all my sources for the last 10-12 years? Of course, a sweeping gereralization MAY, in fact, be true. In any case, whether I can satisfy your need for unlimited specificity or not, the fact remains that the basic fact in unaltered...that the USA cannot absorb unlimited immigrant growth. Here is a hospital system in my area which is on the verge of closing...partially because they are swamped by the uninsured. http://www.topix.net/forum/city/annapolis-md/TFKUA6RESACKCIB79 http://pgcares.newsvine.com/_news/2007/04/17/668759-patients-doctors-sure-hospitals-worth-saving-washingtonpostcom |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Bill D Date: 02 May 07 - 12:45 PM "Understand that and you'll understand why poor people wish to go to better places." I understand that quite well...there are several ways to deal with that problem....help make where they are better (politically, economically, etc), reduce the population trying to subsist in their home countries to match the carrying capacity of the land, and...obviously, allow some to emigrate to other countries. ALL of these require planning and organization...not random rushing about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Amos Date: 02 May 07 - 12:46 PM OK, Bill ... sorry I sniped at you, but you usually present your stuff more rigorously. Here is a good editorial, albeit with an anti-liberal tenor to it, on some of the numbers, and what might consittute a rational middle ground in addressing the problem. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Bert Date: 02 May 07 - 12:47 PM ... I wouldn't be at all surprised if suddenly a lot of those who paraded find themselves taking a little trip down south and not coming back... Actually, most deportees are back within a few weeks. ...By employing people at an impossibly low rate, these employers do nothing to improve the lives of their employees... Many have skills and work at the going rate for the job. But even the underpaid ones are still doing better than they would back home, otherwise they'd just go back home. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Peace Date: 02 May 07 - 12:50 PM The name of the game is usury. Make a profit and screw the workers. It has been thus for centuries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Bill D Date: 02 May 07 - 12:55 PM Yes, Amos...that's a good article about many of the issues. It doesn't solve them...but it gives us talking points. One such is the law that says any baby born in the US is automatically a citizen. That law was written when we didn't have quite the problems we do now. I wonder if it doesn't need amending. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 02 May 07 - 01:04 PM "One such is the law that says any baby born in the US is automatically a citizen." It's my understanding that there is legislation being proposed now that would change this "anchor baby" law. They think they can do it without changing the 14th Amendment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Bill D Date: 02 May 07 - 01:08 PM hmmm...hadn't heard about that. I'd like to read the wording. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Amos Date: 02 May 07 - 01:13 PM Shades of Dred Scott!!! Give me a break. From the United States Constitution, Amendment 14: "Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. " A |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 07 - 01:16 PM Sorry, Amos. Once you admit that times have changed, obviously the PAST amendments to the Constitution, like the 2nd, are subject to being altered to the present view of what is best for the present population. Or have I misunderstood all the talk about gun control? |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Peace Date: 02 May 07 - 01:18 PM I would feel better about the changes if they were not being driven by Bush and Neocons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: heric Date: 02 May 07 - 01:21 PM It was a good article but it didn't resolve Amos' first point about the generalization. I have a feeling (without supporting evidence) that an anticipated/expected/accepted link between illegal immigrants and property crime is very tenuous. There are those among us who enjoy accepting it as true and as justification for unfounded and even malicious bias which should not be encouraged. If there was a strong link between undocumented immigrants and property crime I would expect it to be fairly easy to document. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 07 - 01:47 PM Dobbs: A peculiar day for immigration rallies POSTED: 11:54 a.m. EDT, May 2, 2007 More on CNN TV: Watch Lou's prime time special, "Broken Borders," a town hall meeting on immigration from Hazelton, Pennsylvania tonight at 8 p.m. ET. By Lou Dobbs CNN Editor's Note: Lou Dobbs' commentary appears weekly on CNN.com. NEW YORK (CNN) -- What a spectacle, what a mess. What a day for thousands and thousands of illegal aliens and their supporters to march through the streets of many of our biggest cities demanding amnesty for illegally entering the country. Tuesday was given over to illegal aliens and their supporters to demand forgiveness for using fraudulent documents and assisting others in entering this country illegally. What a day for illegal aliens and their supporters to demand not only amnesty but also the end to immigration raids and an end to deportations. May Day was a peculiar choice for those demonstrations, a day in many countries in which international socialism is celebrated and a reminder of those old Soviet Union military parades. It was also an unfortunate and ironic choice on the part of the organizers of the demonstrations. May 1 in the United States is actually Law Day, a day first established by President Eisenhower in 1958 and ultimately codified into law in 1961 at the beginning of John F. Kennedy's administration. The purpose of Law Day is to give all Americans an opportunity to reflect on our legal heritage, and by statute, encourages "the cultivation of the respect for law that is so vital to the democratic way of life." I'll bet you know about the illegal alien amnesty marches, but I don't know of a single news organization, electronic or print that pointed out that May 1 is America's Law Day. The cable news networks gave almost wall-to-wall coverage to the illegal alien demonstrations, but they apparently couldn't find any American celebrating Law Day. And no one seems to want to take note that we are first a nation of laws, and that without those laws and their enforcement, the foundation of our great republic turns to sand. What a spectacle on Law Day for demonstrators to demand amnesty for those who broke the law to enter our country, many of whom also broke the law with fraudulent documents. And what a mess when the president of the United States and the U.S. Congress are pandering to a group of people who are not citizens and refuse to demand enforcement of our immigration laws, our criminal laws, and fails to secure our borders and ports. I couldn't help but wonder as I watched monitors bringing images of the marches and demonstrations from all across the country, who should really be protesting on May Day. What about the millions of legal residents who followed the long, drawn-out process to secure a visa to enter the United States lawfully? Maybe they should be protesting. What about the seven-figure backlog at the Citizenship and Immigration Services agency of people who are following the rules. Should they demonstrate? What about all of our fellow Americans who are being marginalized by the massive importation of illegal, low-cost and mostly uneducated labor into this country? Perhaps those citizens should take to the streets. And what about the more than 250 million Americans who make up our middle class and those who aspire to it whose wages have stagnated and who are paying for the social, medical and economic costs of illegal immigration? That's a big march. If yesterday's demonstrators and their supporters in Congress and corporate America are serious about their deep desire for American citizenship, why don't we hear any of them clearly say they're willing to give up dual citizenship? Or that they're willing to learn English and surrender demands of bilingual education? Or declare they embrace English as our official national language? Or demand that illegal employers of illegal aliens pay for the social, educational and medical costs now borne by the taxpayers? Yesterday was Law Day. I hope that we celebrate Law Day with a great national enthusiasm next May 1. I guarantee you I'll march in that demonstration. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of the writer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 02 May 07 - 02:39 PM H.R. 1940 (Birthright Citizenship Act of 2007) - would eliminate birthright citizenship for the children born to illegal aliens in the United States by limiting the granting of such citizenship to the children of: (1) U.S. citizens or nationals; (2) lawful permanent resident aliens residing in the United States; and (3) aliens performing active service in the armed forces. Rep. Nathan Deal (R-Ga.) is the measure's main sponsor. Cosponsors |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Peace Date: 02 May 07 - 02:48 PM Nathan Deal's voting record. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 May 07 - 02:51 PM Riginslinger, the reason produce harvesting isn't mechanized is that it can't be. For crops that can be mechanically harvested (some root crops, cotton), small farmers cannot survive; the machines are too expensive. As costs rise, produce is obtained from outside the country; mechanize or use unskilled local labor and prices skyrocket. In our groceries here we are getting fine tomatoes from Guatemala and Mexico; grapes come from Chile and South Africa, canteloupe from Central America. These are fine, hand-picked fruits. Hand-trimmed and carefully packed lettuce and greens from California, etc., will remain affordable only so long as skilled immigrant pickers remain in the fields- the price goes up and Mexico-Central America will become the source. Goodbye produce farmers! Beardedbruce, Simple-minded Lew Dobbs is ignorant of much of American law. My children have dual citizenship, living in Canada with emigrated parents. Many who work overseas for American companies are required to take out citizenship of the country in which they work. The regulations are varied depending on countries involved and international agreements between them. Mind-addled Lou and his bigoted demands for English only never mentions the large territory involved in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. In the constitution of the state of New Mexico, section 5 states "The rights, privileges and immunities, civil, political and religious guaranteed to the people of New Mexico by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo shall be preserved inviolate." New Mexico's constitution recognizes the state as officially bilingual. (One of three families in New Mexico speak Spanish at home). Section 10 of the Constitution: "Children of Spanish descent in the state of New Mexico shall never be denied the right and privilege of admission and attendance in the public schools or other educational institutions of the state, and they shall never be classed in separate schools, but shall forever enjoy perfect equality with other children in all public schools and educational institutions of the state, and the legislature shall provide penalties for the violation of this section. This section shall never be amended except upon a vote of the people of this state, in an election at which at least three-fourths of the electors voting in the whole state and at least two-thirds of those voting in EACH county in the state shall vote for such amendment." Other states in territory obtained from Mexico and subject to the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo have similar allowances. New Mexico hires teachers from Spain and Latin America, in conformance with Section 8 of the Constitution which states "The legislature shall provide for the training of teachers in the normal schools or otherwise so that they may become proficient in both the English and Spanish languages ...." (Dobbs twists other laws, statutes agreements and treaties in his rants, especially with regard to China.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 07 - 03:00 PM "The regulations are varied depending on countries involved and international agreements between them." So, why is it the US has to allow people in violation of those regulations? We aretalking about those who are here illegally: I have no problem with anyone, of any nationality, who comes here legally. But I know many who have bben trying to get here, to be slowed down by the legal process: YOU seem to say that those who violated the law should be allowed to benefit from that, and be made citizens without the efforts required of legal immigrants. As for your comments of "Simple-minded Lew Dobbs " and "Mind-addled Lou ", if you wish to argue the points he brings up, fine- If you want to attack those who think differently than you do, please got to Hell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 02 May 07 - 04:24 PM "My children have dual citizenship, living in Canada with emigrated parents." I think "dual citizenship" is something that ought to be eliminated as well. "Goodbye produce farmers!" Not that I think it's a good thing, but with the introduction on ethanol based fuels all the space is going to be taken up with corn anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Sorcha Date: 02 May 07 - 04:40 PM So, where did tarheel go in all this? |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Bill D Date: 02 May 07 - 04:54 PM It seems to me there's a lot of "whose ox is being gored" going on in this matter. Anyone who has any relatives trying to gain access or citizenship, or who has any financial interest in easy access for their friends, relative or employees asserts the set of arguments which tend to support them. What we need is laws and procedures which are in the best interests of the country as a whole. Achieving this is not a simple process, as there is NO way to make a decision that does not upset or inconvenience some group. When I see videos of protests, or listen to interviews of supporters for amnesty and easy immigration, I hear very little reasoned explanations....I hear emotional pleas based on buzz words ("we're not criminals") and attempts to sway public opinion with alternating threats of economic disaster and international condemnation. Now I see that Lou Dobbs is being called names and accused of ignorance and bigotry based on his continued calls for stopping the export of jobs and import of largely illegal immigrants. Dobbs has opponents on his program and debates with them politely. Listen to ALL of what he says, not just the parts that you disagree with. HE knows it is not an easy problem to solve, but he also is not afraid to explain why the status quo is not working. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 May 07 - 05:50 PM 1. Without comprehensive rewrite of regulations and renegotiation of international agreements it is impossible to apply direct simple (and legal) rules that apply to all immigrants. 2. It is physically impossible to remove 12 million undocumented immigrants. Actions so far in congress indicate that this is realized by legislators. Some sources, esp. South and East Asian nations, have indicated that they will not accept returned immigrants (1,371,000 estimated from that region alone, 2000 Census, http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/demographics/20060406/5/1809). 3. Studies in the journal "Tax Lawyer" (Spring 2006) of the American Bar Assn. Section of Taxation, and "Harvard Latino Law Review*" (vol. 9) by F. J. Lipman assert that "undocumented immigrants actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services" and "contribute to the U. S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services, filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs." * http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/llr/vol. 9/lipman.pdf 4. The director of the Yale Center for the Study of Globalization, Ernesto Zedillo, asserts that illegal immigrants are only a drain on government services "when they are incapable of paying taxes; and that this incapacity is the result of restrictive federal policies that require proof of citizenship." He shows that the U. S. economy has "crucial" need for migrant workers, and that the current debate must acknowledge this rather than just focus on enforcement (Forbes, "Migranomics Instead of Walls," 1-8-2007, pp. 25-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 02 May 07 - 06:22 PM It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that an individual named Ernesto Zedillo has concluded that immigrants are needed to do work in America, and that Forbes would publish the study. Of course, Forbes and friends would want to see lower wages in America, they don't have to work for them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Peace Date: 02 May 07 - 06:41 PM "So, where did tarheel go in all this? " No doubt to church! |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Greg F. Date: 03 May 07 - 09:13 AM The New Colossus - Emma Lazarus Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land; Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. "Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" 'Bout time to tear down thar frickin' statue, then. Or, as Lou Reed would have it: "Give us your tired your poor- Piss on 'em! That's what the Statue of Bigotry says." |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 03 May 07 - 10:19 AM I guess when you've got too many people, you've simply got too many people. I think that's where the US is at. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Amos Date: 03 May 07 - 10:28 AM Too many people for what? Do you have any IDEA how much space there is in this country that is unused for productivre purposes? I think what we have is not too many people, but too little imagination, too little vision, and too little organizing talent. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Wesley S Date: 03 May 07 - 11:06 AM And too many bigots. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Bill D Date: 03 May 07 - 11:40 AM No, Amos...we have too many people in addition to having "too little imagination, too little vision, and too little organizing talent.". And...there was an entire hour on MSNBC last night, moderated by the 'fanatical' Lou Dobbs, on the immigration problem....with several sets of panelists, including serious opponents of Lou. Several Hispanic panelists gave their interpretation of the problem and its possible treatments......sadly, many of their arguments sidestepped the real issues. When the topic came round to the idea of making English the 'official' language, one man tried to claim that it was an English only push(carefully refuted by a mayor who showed that his city has been TRYING to hire multi-lingual teachers. etc...but can't keep up), while another asserted that "it takes time to learn another language, and people have to work", as if that was an excuse for not bothering to learn the language of the country where you live. I wish I had taped it, so I could review all the (sometimes heated) debate in detail, but as I expected, there were some pretty emotional assertions put forth as 'evidence'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 03 May 07 - 11:59 AM "And too many bigots." And if we have too many bigots now, why would we want to import more of them? |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Amos Date: 03 May 07 - 01:44 PM The problem with that proposition, Rig, is that there is no way to test applicants for immigration as to their bigotedness, and if there were such a test, I shudder to think how many citizens would be unable to pass it. I have met many Hispanic immigrants, living near the border, and I have to say that by and large they act less bigoted, by nature, than many well-established Anglo Protestants I have met. I repeat my question -- too many for what? What vision of American life or purpose is so narrow that it does not have room for genuine contribution from all kinds of people? If the future of the nation rests on the shoulders of a small number of unidentified geniuses and visionaries, which it arguably does,...where do you propose to find them? To put it another way, what ideal scenario for this country includes a constraint on the number of people in it? This whole concept of too many people is, in my view, short-sighted at best. If we are on this planet for any reason it is to evolve our destiny as a country and as a species. Why should we think we needed fewer people to do so? If our "mission" is to promulgate civic liberties and democratic principles, why would we need fewer ambassadors? The entire idea of reducing the number of people needs to be thought through carefully against the question of what people are for. On the other hand if all we are talking about is more viewers of Fox News and customers for Walmart, hell, break out the birth control pills. :D A |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: DougR Date: 03 May 07 - 01:55 PM Hear, hear, Bill D. Amos; "too many for what? What vision of American life or purpose is so narrow that it does not have room for genuine contribution from all kinds of people?" There is room for them, and they will be welcome. All they have to be is legal. What part of "legal" do you not understand? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Amos Date: 03 May 07 - 02:01 PM The issue raised upthread, Doug, was about numbers of people, not the credentials of their arrival. It seems clear to me that some sort of metering system is necessary for future immigrants. Trying to rectify the existence of millions of existent ones who arrived illegally is just shutting the barn door after the horse is long gone, and an exercise in futility, if not rampant chauvinism. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 03 May 07 - 02:12 PM "The entire idea of reducing the number of people needs to be thought through carefully against the question of what people are for. On the other hand if all we are talking about is more viewers of Fox News and customers for Walmart, hell, break out the birth control pills." Customers for Walmart is what it's all about. The insanity of what right-wing politicians call a free market economy depends of ever greater numbers of people, buy cheaper, and lower quality products at a cost that continually takes more from their paychecks until they can no longer afford to buy anything. The bottom line equation is this: more people place a greater strain on resources. At some point between where we are now and a standing-room-only existence, the planet would be better off if we just simply controlled population growth. Moving people from places that are over crowded now to places that are not quite yet overcrowded is not the way to get there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Bill D Date: 03 May 07 - 02:29 PM Well, Amos, let me ask THIS question....How did we manage to find clever, creative people to invent, create, and manage this country when we were 20,000,000...or 60,000,000....or 100,000,000? You have to be careful of getting lost in the theory that the more people we have, the better odds we have of accomplishing wonderful things. What do you do when all those wonderful, clever people have little place to live, and have just survival as their main occupation? There are 2 issues...total numbers of people, and the makeup of the population. I maintain, as you see, that we have TOO MANY TOTAL...and have explained that in detail in many other threads. Now, I wish to make absolutely clear that I have NO problem with ".... genuine contribution from all kinds of people" Indeed...I agree that cultural diversity was one of the virtues and driving forces in the success of this country....and still is. That has little to do with the current **problem** of too many immigrants too fast, with very little control over how & whether they are integrated and assimilated into the general mix. I will respect and live beside and keep company with...and even vote for...a decent, qualified person of ANY ethnic background....as long as they strive to be American, and do not intend to promote & encourage separate cultural enclaves based on original ethnicity. I appreciate, respect and encourage people to honor and 'keep alive' the customs and language of their ethnic backgrounds..(as I did last weekend when I attended a Celtic festival and chatted with representatives of my Scottish clan background). I have attended Hispanic festivals, Asian festivals of various sorts, Polish festivals, Native American gatherings, Greek festivals...etc.. and been pleased that language, costume, food, stories and history were being preserved. What disturbs me is the tendency of some to conciously resist learning 'English' and adapting to American customs in social intercourse. It should not be necessary to have every recorded message and instruction booklet..etc..to have Spanish included!. *IF* that is a good idea, why not Korean, Chinese, Hindi, ...and 4-5 more? What I am trying to get across is that rapid and unregulated immigration by people who have little interest in becoming American, but who would rather create mini-Mexicos or Guatamalas or Koreas is a serious problem. That is NOT how most immigrants arrived 100 years ago....and 100 years ago, not being fluent in English was not the issue it is now. (Yes, I have several paragraphs of support for that claim; I just have no time to type details right now). ...I think I'd better stop now, even though thoughts are swirling..I have work to do, and will be out of town for the weekend, with packing still to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Amos Date: 03 May 07 - 02:37 PM A species-wide issue, certainly. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Amos Date: 03 May 07 - 02:39 PM Enjoy your trip, Bill D! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: dianavan Date: 03 May 07 - 04:40 PM "That is NOT how most immigrants arrived 100 years ago....and 100 years ago, not being fluent in English was not the issue it is now." Maybe thats because you didn't need to learn English on the farm but if you look closely you will see that many farming communities were mostly Danish or mostly German or what have you. Same for the cities. Cities were often mostly Italian or mostly Scandanavian or mostly English or... Even within the cities you had districts of people who shared a common language. Its human nature to want to be with your own kind. So whats so different about people from Mexico or Korea wanting to form communities or shopping areas where they can converse in the language of home and buy specialty items from the old country as long as they abide by the laws of their new country? I think the solution is to give amnesty to those who are already here and tighten the immigration policies at the same time. You will need their contributions to Social Security for your old age. Immigration quotas can be set and immigrants can be screened for job skills that are needed. The endless caravans of day labourers coming across the border are more of a problem than those who actually live and work here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 03 May 07 - 04:55 PM "I think the solution is to give amnesty to those who are already here and tighten the immigration policies at the same time." That's exactly what the argument was in 1986. They allowed illegal aliens to become citizens and get green cards, and their reward for that was a flood of illegal aliens greater than anyone up to that time ever dreamed of. The answer, of course, and we'll hear it from Tom Tancredo tonight, is to simply enforce the immigration laws as they stand. Put people who hire illegals in jail, keep illegals from accessing public programs meant for US citizens, and they will discover that it's cheaper to live back where they came from. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Ebbie Date: 03 May 07 - 05:00 PM From a comedian last night: "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" PS: No Mexicans |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Greg F. Date: 03 May 07 - 05:06 PM Put people who hire illegals in jail, Don't hold your breath on that one - Jails wouldn't be able to hold 'em all. They could start with the Walton family- let me know when they're arrested, will ya? |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 May 07 - 06:11 PM Why all this nonsense about English only? I came from an officially bilingual state, New Mexico (Spanish and English). I now live in a bilingual country, Canada (French and English). Switzerland, a prosperous country, has four (or is it five?) official languages. Republic of South Africa has eleven official languages. Spain has two, and is moving towards three. I bought borscht and cabbage rolls in a Russian delicatessin yesterday- everybody in there speaking Russian and it was a busy place. Name your flavor and it is there in the city; great variety. In San Antonio, Texas, where I lived for a while, the languages of business in most stores were English and Spanish, no problems getting served. A city of well over one million, 60% hispanic. Remove the undocumented and speakers of Spanish and the economy would collapse. In Vancouver, Chinese and Vietnamese are spoken commonly. My son has a Pakistani and an East Indian in his business who can handle immigrants from those countries in their own language. Other firms have Chinese and East Asian employees who deal with the growing Chinese, Korean and Vietnamese trade. Being essentially unilingual, I feel myself uneducated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Bill D Date: 03 May 07 - 06:36 PM *running back in briefly" "I think the solution is to give amnesty to those who are already here " I heard statistics last night on what that would cost, both in immediate costs in services and for Medicare & Social Security to include 12 million who have never paid INTO it...2 to 3 TRILLION....I do not vouch for the exact amount, but it would be VERY expensive to suddenly include that many, most of whom will NOT be paying much into SS....and many are unemployed. "...and tighten the immigration policies at the same time." Tighten? HOW? If 12 million get amnesty, what will the next 12 million think about the rules? |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 03 May 07 - 07:34 PM "Tighten? HOW? If 12 million get amnesty, what will the next 12 million think about the rules?" Rules? |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Bugsy Date: 03 May 07 - 08:11 PM I'm reminded of that wonderful song made famous by Huddie Leadbetter. THE SAME BOAT, BROTHER Chorus: We're in the same boat, brother, We're in the same boat, brother, And if you shake one end you're gonna rock the other, It's the same boat, brother. Oh, the Lord looked down, from His Holy place, Say, "Lordy me, what a sea of space; What a spot to launch the human race;" So He built Him a boat for a mixed-up crew, With eyes of black and brown and blue, So that's how come that you and I Got just one world with just one sky. (CHO) Oh, the boat rolled on through storm and grief, Past many a rock and many a reef, What kept 'em goin' was a great belief That they had to learn to navigate. For the human race was special freight; If we don't want to be in Jonah's shoes, We'd better be mates on this here cruise. 'Cause it's the same boat, brother, We're in the same boat, brother, And if you shake one end you're gonna rock the other, It's the same boat, brother. When the boilers blew somewhere in Spain, The keel was smashed in the far Ukraine, And the steam poured out from Oregon to Maine; Oh, it took some time for the crew to learn What's bad for the bow ain't good for the stern; If a hatch takes fire in China Bay Pearl Harbor's decks gonna blaze away. For it's the same boat, brother, Yes, it's the same boat, brother, And we must live with each other, In the same boat, the very same boat, brother. Now watch someone come up with "That's why they should stay where God put them in the first place. CHeers Bugsy |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 May 07 - 08:36 PM I can find no documented basis for the estimates. The best estimates of undocumented immigrants is around 12 million total. There are about 12 million foreign born who have proper papers. Most undocumented immigrants are paying taxes and are having social security deducted, as their empoyer must do. As noted in a previous post, an article in the reliable journal of the Taxation Section of the American Bar Association shows that the undocumented are paying their share. This is somewhat of a digression inserted for information on Social Security payments- Few people seem to realize that Social Security eligibility is determined by treaty with a number of countries. For example, a Canadian geologist friend of mine and his wife both worked some 20 years (I forget the qualifying figure, but they had the necessary amount) in the U. S. as foreign nationals and qualified for full U. S. Social Security payments when they retired and returned to Canada. Similarly, Americans working in Canada will receive payments from the Canadian government when they return and retire in the States (pro-rated). Anyone on a regular payroll, citizen or foreign national, has taxes and social security deducted by the employer, and will receive benefits pro-rated depending on length of qualifying period. Medical insurance also is tied into most employment contracts for offshore nationals regardless of their country of origin, or where they retire. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Amos Date: 03 May 07 - 08:42 PM A broad coalition of organizations across the United States is urging the public to submit comments rejecting the illegal national identification system created under the Department of Homeland Security's REAL ID program: http://www.privacycoalition.org/stoprealid/ The website has links to portals for web submissions, as well as how to fax your comments. Also included are sample comments such as: "The plan will create a massive national identification system without adequate privacy and security safeguards. It will also make it more difficult for people to get driver's licenses. And it will make it too easy for identity thieves, stalkers, and corrupt government officials to get access to such personal information as a home address, age, and Social Security number." We urge your readers to submit their comments, and to tell their friends and allies to do so as well. Comments are due May 8th at 5pm. -gr -- Guilherme Roschke Skadden Fellow Domestic Violence and Privacy Project Electronic Privacy Information Center http://www.epic.org/privacy/dv/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 03 May 07 - 09:36 PM "'Now watch someone come up with "That's why they should stay where God put them in the first place.'" If that's how you think they got there. The much larger problem is not that people are different, but just the sheer number of people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Liz the Squeak Date: 03 May 07 - 09:58 PM "I guess when you've got too many people, you've simply got too many people. I think that's where the US is at. " How in hell can you say that when there are vast areas of the US (about 30 states) who have a population of around 100 people per square mile? The UK has an average of 647 people psm and that's the whole of the British Isles. Take England on its own and the population leaps up to nearly a thousand psm, the fourth most densely populated country in the world. The UK as a whole - slightly smaller than Oregon - is 17th on the list... The US doesn't even show in that top 17. THAT is too many people. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 May 07 - 10:32 PM Projected birth rates suggest the U. S. will have to increase immigration to keep up, if I remember correctly the figures I saw. Perhaps someone has the data handy; please post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Bill D Date: 03 May 07 - 10:32 PM Liz...have you SEEN some of those square miles in places like Utah? or Nevada? or Arizona? I have....they are not pleasant places to live. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Amos Date: 03 May 07 - 11:22 PM Bill: Terraforming technology is on its way, buddy. Dream ye impossible dream. Desalination, renewable energy, and pradise sprongs forth from the sands of Four Corners.... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: GUEST,Pootytang Date: 03 May 07 - 11:47 PM Where did the "12 million" number of illegals come from? It's more than double that. When you commit a crime you hide from the authorities. If the 12 million is a government census figure, it's wrong. And the "undocumented" aren't "paying their share" in the U.S. They receive far more in subsidies and free "benefits" than their taxes offset. $5,000 to drop a baby here for starters. Gotta pay a lot of income tax to reimburse for just that one things. If anyone wants to get into the number-crunching to support an argument FOR illegal immigrants, think again, because the data won't support the illegals. And that's what they are--illegals. Criminals. Next time you're getting a speeding ticket, try to talk your way out if it by claiming that what you did was just "illegal." If illegal immigration is okay, what about illegal pedophilia? Instead of construction workers or fruit pickers wandering your neighborhoods, how would you feel if pedophiles were wandering around? A criminal's a criminal. Are you in favor of illegals hosing your kids? |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 May 07 - 12:11 AM "sands of Four Corners?? Time for a DIGRESSION Carrizo and Chuska Mountains in Arizona-New Mexico, the San Juan River in Utah-New Mexico, Ute Peak in Colorado. And beautiful downtown Teec Nos Pos is a little crowded when two Navajo pick-ups pass each other on main street. The Utah, Arizona and New Mexico portions are all part of the Navajo Nation, so another Indian War would be necessary to settle immigrants there. West of the Navajo Nation is the Grand Canyon. To the south is forest and Mazatzal Wilderness, Petrified Forest, the Mogollon Rim and Apache Indian Reservation. The Four Corners is a colorful area. A hotel at Chinlee on the Navajo Rez that serves roast lamb 'to die for.' Hire a Navajo-owned jeep and driver there and explore Canyon de Chelly, a far different experience, far from the crowds at Mesa Verde. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Peace Date: 04 May 07 - 12:52 AM 'Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: GUEST,Pootytang - PM Date: 03 May 07 - 11:47 PM Where did the "12 million" number of illegals come from? It's more than double that.' Yep, I'll take YOUR word for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: GUEST,Pootytang Date: 04 May 07 - 01:12 AM Here's an incredible, short article. A Freedom of Information Act filed by Judicial Watch turned this up. The head of U.S. Homeland Security admits the U.S., Canada and Mexico are being merged. This is sooo illegal. No treaties unless ratified by the Senate (in the U.S.) The article mentions one report that's "heavily redacted" to hide the names of those involved. Hell yeah it's blacked-out. They're traitors to their respective countries. The Security and Prosperity Partnership and the North American Union are here. They began in 2005. In March the European Union had big Fiftieth Anniversary celebrations across the continent, but the average European thinks the EU was initiated in 2000, right? Wrong. They implemented it by subterfuge in 1957. Same thing is going on now in North America. The North American Union began in 2005 (see article) at Waco, Texas. http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/03-20-2007/0004549920&EDATE= And now, the govt-owned media is stirring up the "immigration" issue, so I suppose we're expected to fight a civil war pretty soon. Then the new unified North American Police Force can put things right...round up the illegals for the concentration camps (and a few of us problematic citizens too), then show little "Pedro" in the camp being denied the American Dream and, what the hell, let's just get rid of the borders. And where'd those problematic citizens go, by the way? Don't fall for it. Kick the illegals out of the U.S., and let them send our criminals back, too. That's all I have to say on the subject. Read the FOIA document. Those are high crimes and treason. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Ron Davies Date: 04 May 07 - 04:15 AM Guest Pooty-- "That's all I have to say on the subject". Thankful for small mercies. Now you wouldn't be one of our delightful politics-only posters, would you? What kind of music do you like? And thanks so much for your calm, informative, factual, and so objective posting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: manitas_at_work Date: 04 May 07 - 08:32 AM "but the average European thinks the EU was initiated in 2000, right? " I dunno where you got that from but I took part in the referendum on Britain joining the EU (or EEC as then was) over 25 years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Amos Date: 04 May 07 - 09:03 AM Family Values, Betrayed Published: May 4, 2007 When George W. Bush was running for president in 2000 as a new kind of Republican — the caring kind — he had a ready answer for those skeptical of his moderate views on immigration. "Family values do not stop at the Rio Grande," he said, again and again. He was standing up for immigrants who come here seeking better lives for their children, and he repeated the message so often that it stuck. Now, like so much else in Mr. Bush's tattered slogan file, it's in danger of coming unstuck. Negotiators struggling to draft an immigration bill in Washington are being pressured by the White House and Republican leaders to gut the provisions of the law that promote the unity of immigrant families in favor of strictly employment-based programs. Details are still being sweated out in private, but a draft proposal circulated by the White House and the G.O.P. would eliminate or severely restrict whole categories of family-based immigration in favor of a system that would assign potential immigrants points based on age, skills, education, income and other factors. Citizens would no longer be able to sponsor siblings and children over 21, and their ability to bring in parents would be severely limited. Unattached workers with advanced degrees and corporate sponsors could do all right, but not families, not the moms, pops, sons and daughters who open groceries and restaurants, who rebuild desolate neighborhoods and inspire America with their work ethic and commitment to one another. The plan would also shut out hundreds of thousands of people who have applied for family visas under current rules and are patiently waiting because of long backlogs. The goal seems to be to end what immigration restrictionists call "chain migration," a tendentious term that recasts in a sinister light one of the fundamental ways America was built, and a decades-old cornerstone of our immigration policy. It's a cruel distortion that feeds fears of outsiders and fails to acknowledge that healthy immigration levels keep the economy running, particularly in a country with low unemployment and birth rates and workers who shun backbreaking, entry-level jobs. America needs immigrants. Last year's bipartisan Senate bill recognized this, and raised quotas for both family and employment-based immigration. Congress should do so again. Closing the door to families would be unjust and unworkable, and a mockery of the values that conservatives profess. It would only encourage illegality by forcing people to choose between their loved ones and the law. (NY Times) |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Greg F. Date: 04 May 07 - 09:48 AM "Pull up the gangplank, I'm aboard"- the BuShite Motto- or one of 'em. Wonder what those native-born sons & daughters of America in positions of power like Henry Kissinger think of all this..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Liz the Squeak Date: 04 May 07 - 11:24 AM Bill D - have you seen Milton Keynes or Basingstoke?!! (That's supposed to be funny) LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 04 May 07 - 11:55 AM "America needs immigrants." If America need immigrant--a point I would dispute--she needs immigrants with skills and resources. On the otherhand, multinational corporations need immigrants to drive down the value of American Labor. That's the cause John McCain and George W. Bush are fighting for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Ebbie Date: 04 May 07 - 12:27 PM "That's all I have to say on the subject." Whew. For a minute there, I thought we'd be hearing this all day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: dianavan Date: 04 May 07 - 02:05 PM "Last year's bipartisan Senate bill recognized this, and raised quotas for both family and employment-based immigration." Sounds reasonable to me. Does that mean the real problem is that Mexicans continue to enter illegally? If so, the next logical move would be to give amnesty to those who are in the U.S. illegally, and to heavily fine employers who continue to hire illegals. Where do 'day workers' being brought across the border figure in? Building walls and prisons to contain people is no solution at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 04 May 07 - 02:43 PM "...the next logical move would be to give amnesty to those who are in the U.S. illegally, and to heavily fine employers who continue to hire illegals." I would agree the real problem are the employers who hire illegals. I'd happily lock them up and throw the key away, but I don't think the immigrants should be able to crowd ahead of other folks who have played by the rules and are having to wait because others have cut in line ahead of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: dianavan Date: 04 May 07 - 03:09 PM I think you mean illegal immigrants should not be crowding in front of you. Immigrants, on the other hand, have the same rights as you do and are probably hired before you because they are offering the same or better skills. I doubt very much if illegals are competing in the same job market as you. If so, you better upgrade, quick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: beardedbruce Date: 04 May 07 - 03:14 PM "the next logical move would be to give amnesty to those who are in the U.S. illegally" Why? The next logical move would be to enforce the laws, on both the illegal immigrants AND those who hire them. I have no problem with a LIMITED AMNESTY- IF they come forward and leave the country on their own, they should be allowed to apply for legal immigration, and comply with the same rules and requirements that the legal immigrants today have to comply with. If they do not come forward, they should be treated like any other criminal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 04 May 07 - 04:15 PM "I think you mean illegal immigrants should not be crowding in front of you." I meant the employers should be locked up, not the immigrants. But in a local newspaper, I saw the picture of a billboard that was being displayed in the Bay Area, in CA, describing Latinos as being racists because they are crowding in front of Asians who are playing by the rules in trying to immigrate here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 May 07 - 04:53 PM Asians playing by the rules- Posted above somewhere is the estimate that there are 1,371,000 illegal south and east Asian undocumented in the States. Mexicans are five times that. These figures are based on the 2000 U. S. Census and analysis in the Pew Research Report. (One who believes the hysterical 20,000,000 undocumented figure would have to double the above figures) The bulk of the immigrants who came to the U. S. in the past were unskilled; immigrants picked up the skills they needed to prosper as they climbed the ladder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 04 May 07 - 05:17 PM Like the man said, "All I know is what I read in the newspapers." |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Amos Date: 04 May 07 - 05:19 PM I tis absurd to envision illegal crossing of a border as a criminal act. At worst it could be treated as a civil offense. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: GUEST,Scoville at Dad's Date: 04 May 07 - 11:43 PM Why should we give them amnesty? What part of "illegal" do people not understand? This can't have an all-or-nothing solution; it has to be somewhere in the middle. U.S. immigration laws and process need to be overhauled so that legal immigration is a more realistic prospect, but the U.S. (nor any other country, for that matter) should not feel obligated to give amnesty to people who are breaking its laws by being here. People who hire illegals should be punished and the minimum wage should be raised so that citizens and legal residents who earn their money "on the books" can afford to take those jobs for which employers are so eager to underpay illegals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Amos Date: 05 May 07 - 12:25 AM We should give them amnesty because they are struggling human beings. Making a crime out of trying to join a better group is pretty nnutso, in my opinion. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: dianavan Date: 05 May 07 - 03:03 AM Maybe amnesty is not the right term. Since most of these illegals seem to have jobs (albeit low-paying jobs) perhaps those that are employed could be given work permits while applying for immigration. In other words, if their employers (or a family member) can vouch for them, they can stay while going through the legal channels. Immigration policy could therefore, reflect the same. I know that when we immigrated to Canada, we had to have a guarantee of employment and it was the employer who sponsored us. Contrary to popular opinion, most immigrants have sponsors who are family members or employers. That is the best guarantee that immigrants won't be a drain on the system and will be contributing to society and the economy. It wasn't until the early 70's that you had to apply from outside the country. Prior to that, as long as you made it across the border, you could apply for landed immigrant status from inside Canada. It seems to me that Mexican immigrants are taking the blame for a disorganized immigration policy and employers who readily take advantage of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 05 May 07 - 08:44 AM "It seems to me that Mexican immigrants are taking the blame for a disorganized immigration policy and employers who readily take advantage of it." I think most people who really thought about it would agree that illegal aliens have been cast in the role of victims in this entire issue. But the two undeniable downsides to illegal immigration are the obvious effects: the degradation of the environment through increased population, and the driving down of real wages for other hard working Americans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: dianavan Date: 05 May 07 - 02:46 PM I'm not sure that illegal immigrants drive down the costs of labour when there is little unemployment but I agree that it could be a problem. I doubt if illegals are competing for the same jobs as legals. I also take issue with your statement about the degradation of the environment. The environment does not have national boundaries, unless you are talking about a socio/cultural environment. If you're talking about sustainablility in a physical environment, it doesn't matter where the people actually live, its a worldwide problem. The damage to the Earth is the same whether it happens in Mexico or if it happens in the U.S. Environmental issues are international. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 05 May 07 - 02:58 PM "The damage to the Earth is the same whether it happens in Mexico or if it happens in the U.S. Environmental issues are international." That's true, but Americans have very little control over environmental damage in Mexico, and the population there does not seem to be going down, even though millions of them are moving to the US. In order to keep the environmental integrity in the US, it would benefit Americans to try to contain the population growth here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Liz the Squeak Date: 05 May 07 - 09:57 PM Other hard-working Americans? If they were that hard-working, there wouldn't BE any jobs for illegal immigrants to do! LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: GUEST Date: 06 May 07 - 12:45 AM We have many seasonal workers here in Canada, the majority from Mexico, I don't know how many would be considered "ILLEGAL" or not, but I do know the bulk of the produce would not be harvested without them. They also help help the economy in many ways, mostly by buying goods for their families that they cannot get in Mexico. They do the work that many canadians will not do and are welcomed back every year. It's hard honest work and they for the most part are law abiding individuals. Fair play to them, and a pox on those who complain about them but who are not willing to do the work themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: GUEST,Jimmy C Date: 06 May 07 - 12:46 AM That last post about the seasonal workers in Canada was from me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: dianavan Date: 06 May 07 - 03:38 AM "In order to keep the environmental integrity in the US, it would benefit Americans to try to contain the population growth here." Are you kidding? You'll never convince Canadians about the 'environmental integrity' of the U.S. Google Sumas power plant 2 or Great Lakes pollution. Don't forget, we get to breathe the air from your 'pristine' environment. As far as containing population growth - its alot easier and far more sensible to provide birth control and abortion, than to imprison illegal immigrants or build walls. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 06 May 07 - 10:10 AM "If they were that hard-working, there wouldn't BE any jobs for illegal immigrants to do!" Not true, as demonstrated by the latest meat packing raids, Americans just can't affor to work for the substandard wages the slave drivers pay to the Mexicans. "We have many seasonal workers here in Canada,..." I wonder, in Canada, if an alien couple has a baby there, does the new born automatically become a Canadian citizen? "Are you kidding? You'll never convince Canadians about the 'environmental integrity' of the U.S. Google Sumas power plant 2 or Great Lakes pollution. Don't forget, we get to breathe the air from your 'pristine' environment." I can certainly sympathize with the Canadians on this issue, but how would if help if the US is adding millions of people each year to its population? "As far as containing population growth - its alot easier and far more sensible to provide birth control and abortion, than to imprison illegal immigrants or build walls." You're absolutely right. Now all we have to do is to convince the Roman Catholic Church. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Sorcha Date: 06 May 07 - 10:18 AM Good old Chuck....start a shit storm and run off. Yea, I'm a tad crabby today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: dianavan Date: 06 May 07 - 02:29 PM "Now all we have to do is to convince the Roman Catholic Church." - Riginslinger Its not just the Roman Catholic Church, its the pro-life movement and their successful lobbying of the government that is making laws that prevent people from controlling the population. Don't blame the illegals who have no vote. "Americans just can't afford to work for the substandard wages the slave drivers pay to the Mexicans." So fine the employer! Organize unions! "how would if help if the US is adding millions of people each year to its population?" Are you saying its easier to imprison human beings and build walls than pass adequate environmental standards? Whether immigrants are legal or illegal does not effect the environment. "if an alien couple has a baby there, does the new born automatically become a Canadian citizen?" As far as I know, this is true. I was an American citizen at the time of my daughter's birth. She automatically became Canadian. I had to apply for her U.S. citizenship and she became a dual citizen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: GUEST,guest Date: 06 May 07 - 02:59 PM It's not the R.C. Church that controls the population growth. We have feedom of choice. Ovepopulation is a misnomer. There os lots of space for everyone. The problem is in the distribution of food. Americans waste more food then some small countries consume. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Peace Date: 06 May 07 - 03:01 PM America also wastes some small countries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 06 May 07 - 05:24 PM "Its not just the Roman Catholic Church, its the pro-life movement and their successful lobbying of the government that is making laws that prevent people from controlling the population. Don't blame the illegals who have no vote." In Mexico, they're not illegal, and they have a vote. A week or so back, when the local government of Mexico City voted to allow 1st trimester abortions, the church in Rome went ballistic. Almost everybody in Mexico is Catholic, or is listed as such. 'So fine the employer! Organize unions!" I love to see the employers in jail. We have laws but the authorities simply will not enforce them. As far as organizing unions, that's a great idea, but we'd need to get rid of the scabs first. "Whether immigrants are legal or illegal does not effect the environment." I would agree that the legal status of an immigrant is not germain, but population growth is. US population growth would be pretty stable if it weren't for immigration. With illegal immigration, there are no controls at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 06 May 07 - 05:28 PM "Ovepopulation is a misnomer. There os lots of space for everyone." I think you're completely wrong about this, but even if we provided more space for people, that would mean less space for wildlife and wilderness. In the end there would be standing room only and the Fortune 500 Companies would figure out a way to corner the market on potable water. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: dianavan Date: 06 May 07 - 05:35 PM "I love to see the employers in jail. We have laws but the authorities simply will not enforce them." - Riginslinger Are you saying its easier to enfore the laws about immigration than it is to enforce the laws about hiring illegals? Sounds to me that the problem is enforcement, not immigration. If the enforcement were focussed on the employer, there would be a lot less illegal immigration. Its a matter of political will. In other words, as long as business interests control the government, what you and I think is best, doesn't matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Bill D Date: 06 May 07 - 08:43 PM "Ovepopulation is a misnomer. There is lots of space for everyone. The problem is in the distribution of food. Americans waste more food then some small countries consume." This is a commonly repeated combination of fact & error....we DO waste a lot, but you can't devise a distribution program that would remedy that. Most of the 'waste' is not at places that would allow it go elsewhere...We DO ship some surpluses elsewhere, but 'enough food' needs to be generated at or near where it's needed. The cost in labor and transportation to ship serious quantities of food around would be prohibitive. And "lots of space for everyone" is simply both incorrect and a logical error. You are using "lots of space" in a very different way than those who explain the 'carrying capacity' of the land. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 06 May 07 - 09:03 PM "In other words, as long as business interests control the government, what you and I think is best, doesn't matter." Finally, we agree on something. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 06 May 07 - 09:21 PM Immigrants would settle in the cities. Our "lots of space" would continue to be just that; e. g., the Dakotas are losing population, and many of the small village post offices in western Canada have closed as the people have left their hand-to-mouth little farms and low-paying enterprises and have gone to the cities. Even Walmart pays better. Some of our areas that should be preserved and revert to public lands are being built on, but it is the well-to-do looking for an exclusive playground near to "God's Nature," as the developers brand it, bordering the mountains, on lakes and streams and next to parks that is the problem there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 06 May 07 - 10:13 PM "Some of our areas that should be preserved and revert to public lands are being built on, but it is the well-to-do looking for an exclusive playground near to "God's Nature," as the developers brand it, bordering the mountains, on lakes and streams and next to parks that is the problem there." I agree with everything you say here. But it reminds me of those folks who want to argue for the environment while, at the same time supporting illegal immigration. What they say is--"people from third world nations don't consume as much as Americans, so there is no reason to prevent them from coming here." The problem with that argument is obvious. Once they're here, they will certainly start consuming like other Americans. I'm not saying I think that's a good thing--Americans should cut down on their consumption. But after a generation or two, the poorer immigrants will be ready to move into "God's Nature" as a birth right of their own. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 06 May 07 - 10:40 PM Gee! Now you are saying these huddled masses of illegal immigrants will become capitalist over-consumers? Destroying the home of Wily Coyote and Brer Rabbit and Bambi? Yeah, I guess that could happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Jimmy C Date: 06 May 07 - 10:58 PM I am an immigrant myself so I have not too much of a problem with immigrants. I do have a problem however with ILLEGAL immigrants and it has nothing to do with work, population growth or anything racial aspect but - Countries that accept a certain number of immigrants per year have standards and procedures that must be followed, and this is necessary for security reasons and also for health reasons, The last this a large city needs is an outbreak of some deadly contagious disease that has been carried in by an illegal immigrant, or some fanatic with his own political agenda to set up shop in a large city or near any warehouse that stores toxic substances for example. If legal immigrants can apply, wait their turn , pass their medicals etc and meet all other criteria before they are accepted then the illegals should really have to do the same thing. I do sympathize with their lot but they should be willing to go through the proper channels for everybody's sake. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: dianavan Date: 06 May 07 - 11:40 PM Well said, Jimmy C. I find it very odd that the U.S. often criticizes Canada about their loose borders and lax immigration policy while wrestling with such a large number of illegals themselves. Whatever happened to Homeland Security? Woe to the legal immigrant who happens to pass through U.S. customs and immigration at the wrong time - especially if they're from the Middle East. Has it ever occurred to anyone that terrorists will be able to slip through your southern border far easier than the Canadian border? In the meantime, I have been waiting for two months for my passport thanks to U.S. policy that has all but closed the border with Canada. More rules and regulations seem to keep the legal Canadians out while allowing cheap, illegal labour in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 07 May 07 - 08:41 AM "Has it ever occurred to anyone that terrorists will be able to slip through your southern border far easier than the Canadian border?" dianavan--I think it's occurred to everyone on the face of the planet except George W. Bush and anyone else who is in a position to do something about it. And you're right, the flood of illegal immigrants has made it very difficult for legal immigrants to go on about their business. That's why some Asian groups have begun to label Latinos as racists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Riginslinger Date: 09 May 07 - 12:06 PM On second thought, maybe we really do need them. Without illegal aliens on the streets, who would the LA police fire rubber bullets at? |
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Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ... From: Bill D Date: 09 May 07 - 12:16 PM "Without illegal aliens on the streets, who would the LA police fire rubber bullets at?" Now, now...you were doing so well....*tsk* ;>) |
