BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train

Subject: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 08:36 AM

Obama, it is time.

As I said this morning in another thread "what kind of pastor does this to their parishioner???"

Wright is a pathetic, celebrity seeking narcissist that will destroy Obama if he doesn't get seriously kicked loose by Obama NOW.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: john f weldon
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 08:54 AM

Alas, Clergy-kicking does not go down well in the US of A, tempting as may often be.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: pdq
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 09:02 AM

Jeremiah Wright has raised his stature to the level of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton in a matter of a few weeks. They are now the three main voices of African-American people in the entire Western world. They were put there by the US news media because they fit the stereotype the media want.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 09:12 AM

Actually, I don't see many similarities between those three beyond them all being "men of the cloth".

Sharpton and Wright do seem to *sort of* be birds of a feather, but Sharpton isn't as extreme as Wright, IMO. I like Sharpton as an untiring advocate for NY's African American community. He has served them extremely well for the most part.

Don't forget, Jackson did a fair amount of shuttle foreign diplomacy tricks while running too, which made him look far better than Sharpton or Wright could ever hope to look.

Jesse is also a far better orator than the other two, and way smarter. He also paved the way for Obama to run, by embracing that other rainbow coalition (GLBT) during his 1988 campaign.

Wright is just an egomaniac who is obviously so jealous of Obama, he has set out to take the man down. Or so it looks to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 09:30 AM

Well, throwing Jeremiah from the train is perhaps too drastic and could make Obama look like yet "another politican"... Obama is caught in a bad situation but not of his doings...

The "lynch mob" mentality of the McMedia is driving this story... Sure, Jeremiah ain't helping much but he isn't hurting that much either... Better to get take a whuppin' now than later...

What the media and the Clinton's have effectively done is change the converstaion... Obama has done the dance-of-the-dieing-duck upon request but he isn't initiating this news cycle and nor is Jeremiah, who came into this with motives that have been misunderstood by the white dominated media... White people don't get Jeremiah Wright but they do get the white controlled media and the white Clintons who have effectively turned the race from "a man, who happens to be black, running for presiednt" to "a black man running for president"...

This had to happen somewhere along the line and someone like Jeremiah Wright was going to have to take some heat somewhere along the line... That's is the part of institutiional racism that most white folks both ***don't get*** and ***deny***...

("Well, Ralph, I guess I can live with that black guy as president but I think he needs a good whippin' before he takes the oath just to remind him who is really the boss here...)

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 09:36 AM

Yeah ol' Bobert, your hatred of Clinton/Bush blinds you.

If you don't get that Wright is a self-inflicted liability, then you have no objectivity left.

Last I heard, neither MSM or the Clintons had titled Obama's memoirs "Audacity of Hope".

Why should we bother to engage in conversation with a destructive Obamabot?

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: pdq
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 09:41 AM

What I mean is that all three are now media stars. The media need them so the media made them stars.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 09:49 AM

I don't believe any of them were made stars by the media. I do believe, however, that all 3 have sought the spotlight. All politicians do, just like all pastors and priests do, all teachers do, all talking heads do, all actors and musicians do, etc.

That is a given, IMO.

But what Wright is doing is beyond the pale, and threatens to destroy the Obama campaign if he doesn't act quickly.

This could cost the primaries as early as next Tuesday.

Before news of Wright's media blitz was made public last week, Obama was already sagging in the polls because of the bounce Clinton got (as expected) coming out of PA.

No, if Obama doesn't make a major speech renouncing Wright and his divisive identity politics--which is what Obama claims he wants to transcend (but maybe only on one side of the divide?), his campaign is finished. Finished.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:03 AM

Well, Fantz... I don't hate either Bush or Clinton... I dislike and hate some of what they have done... Bush more than Clinton...

I did not like Clintons caving on "welfare reform" which was punitive and ill-thought out and as a result incresed poverty levels in the US... I didn't like Clinton having an affair and then lieing to his family and the nation about it... I do not like some of the code words that mostly BIll had used in this campaign to change the conversation toward race...

As for Bush??? Geeze... The tax cuts, the war, Katrina, post-911 posturing and chest pumping, his combative foriegn policy, his "No Child Left Taught to Think, etc...

But no, I don't hate them...

And I do get what Jeremiah Wright is doing... He is defending himself... I understand that... Of course, it was the white media that pounded and pounded away at him for a month before he had had enough and when he had had enough he came out of the corner with fire in his eyes just as I would have expected... Now he has scared white people who have little understanding of the black culture or the black church experience and it has white people caught off guard...

If it costs Obama the presidency this year, so be it... It will toughen him yup for thw '12 campaign but more importantly it may do one of the good things that Bill CLinton did in '97 and that is have a real discussion about race in America... Tnat is long overdue and perhaps has to happen before a black man or woman can be electyed president...

I think back to the beginning of the conservative movement... It was '64 and Goldwater was smashed... But what he said sank in and maybe that's what is happening here... Maybe the country would be better off having McCain ***and*** a "discussion on race" if they can't have Obama...

I see this, at the very least, good for America...

Go, Jeremiah, go... You rock, brother... You rock!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:13 AM

Putting the old black vs white racial identity politics on the front page as a slugfest between a black preacher and a black politician is A Good Thing?

Just how does THAT work, exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:01 AM

"Throw the Reverend from the Train..."


                   Toss 'em all. The world would be a better place.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:01 AM

pdq said, in part:

Jeremiah Wright has raised his stature to the level of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton in a matter of a few weeks.

pdq, your sentence is not quite correct as written. It should more accurately say,

Jeremiah Wright has raised his notoriety to the level of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton in a matter of a few weeks.

Or, even better,

The media have helped Jeremiah Wright raise his notoriety to the level of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton in a matter of a few weeks.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: pdq
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:07 AM

I can live with the revised edition. Thanks, Uncle Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:18 AM

I really appreciate the way Obama is responding to the current Rev. Wright situation. It's his ability to respond to people in this way that made it possible for me to feel ok about voting for him this time around. I think I'm far from unique in feeling this way.

I also think that for Obama to respond in kind would make him look weak rather than strong, and that would be a mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:50 AM

Mike Huckabee was right. because of his generation and his age and his service to the contry, we need to cut Wright some slack. Obama is doing what id right. He just needs to more strongly disavow Wright's statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:55 AM

That isn't what Mike Huckabee was saying last night on MSNBC. Not by a long shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:05 PM

All Rev Wright needs to do now is get a diagnosis of Alzheimers.
That is the only thing that might explain his behavior,

either that or he has been bribed with everything he ever wanted by people who know how to bribe and extort with impunity.






Joe Scarbourough is saying over and over that Obama is on a sinking ship. After 1,200 repetitions people might just believe the TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:14 PM

Last night on Newshour with Jim Lehrer there were talking heads discussing this situation with Judy Woodruff. All three of the men she was interviewing are black.

Their consensus was that if Obama can transcend this situation, putting it where it belongs, he will have demonstrated that he is ready for the presidency. If not, he is not ready.

hmmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:24 PM

I do not believe that bringing the pastor's remarks into the presidential election is an attack on the black church, as Wright said to the National Press Club.

THat is merely a remark that is designed to cause trouble for anyone who would try to refute it.
Wright might think he is shaping the debate or steering the conversation but sadly his self serving remarks do harm far beyond his personal focus.

His behavior is human, full of foibles with grains of truth scattered like rice on black velvet, but unfortunately he will divide more than unite.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:27 PM

The entire Jeremiah Wright "controversy" is manufactured by Fox, Scarborough, et. al. By even being here talking about it, you (and now me) are feeding *those* trolls.

It is classic propaganda - paint someone as the demon, make them fear the demon more than the very real problems they face, and convince them only you can save them.

Will any disavowal of Wright's person or remarks truly affect the amount of money my kids will be paying to the Chinese, and whether I will lose any more cousins in Iraq?

Congratualtions, this thread is right in line with MSM behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:27 PM

Same was happening on the cable news (I too saw the piece w/Judy Woodruff).

Lots of African American commentators from across the social and political spectrum.

Pretty unanimous opinion. Consensus seems to be Wright is a loose cannon, and will take Obama down with him--so it's Time.

Time to throw Wright off the train, or risk it leaving the station w/out Obama.

Same is true on the African American blogsites today like theroot.com.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:30 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/28/AR2008042802102.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

"Where Wright Goes Wrong

By Eugene Robinson
Tuesday, April 29, 2008; Page A17


We all have our crosses to bear. The Rev. Jeremiah Wright has become Barack Obama's.

I'm sorry, but I've had it with Wright. I would never try to diminish the service he performed as pastor of his Chicago megachurch, and it's obvious that he's a man of great charisma and faith. But this media tour he's conducting is doing a disservice that goes beyond any impact it might have on Obama's presidential campaign.

The problem is that Wright insists on being seen as something he's not: an archetypal representative of the African American church. In fact, he represents one twig of one branch of a very large tree."

more at link

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:34 PM

I agree a bazillion percent, BillD. Obama should have cut him loose before he ever announced, when it would have been far easier to do than it will be now.

This is a pile of shit, no matter which angle you are viewing it from, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 01:07 PM

I used to work in the Civil Rights movement, and sadly, I met several guys with attitudes similar to Wright's..(without the overlay of 'reverend', thankfully)

If Wright was not connected to Obama, we'd probably not hear of him, and it is beyond ridiculous to paint Obama with shadows of this man's rhetoric! The **MEDIA** is creating a self-fulfilling hypothesis with its rhetorical questions.."Can his ex-pastor's ideas derail Obama's campaign?"

Obama has SAID he disavows Wright's ideas...but there sure are those who feel that keeping this issue alive might hurt him. I wonder who that might be? (he said cynically)

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 01:12 PM

I read a good piece this morning which I can't find now but was a suggested speech for Obama and probably about as good as he could do. This is the true rock and hard place dilemna. Additionally Wright has thrown in so much more than the original "problems" that almost anything said will have to be very carefully crafted. The idea that Obama is just a politician is probably the most hurtful to his momentum and campaigh in general.

I like Obama although I'm certainly not one of his zealots but in this case I gotta' feel sorry for the dude!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 01:33 PM

It also isn't a situation unique to African American identity politics.

You see the same stuff in Latino/Latina identity politics, Native American identity politics...too many "old school" guys who don't like the upstarts outshining them.

Another aspect of the phenomenon, is the old school guy hogging the limelight has usually lost the support of their community.

I can't tell you how ugly it got in some of the communities I've worked in over the years. Like, really ugly.

I can't stand Obama, but I do feel for him right now--and for all of us. Because the tired, old racial identity politics is NOT the road we should be heading down at this crucial juncture in American politics.

And if I didn't know better, I'd really have to say--who got to Jeremiah Wright?

You may have read the piece at Salon.com? They had one of those articles this morning. It was a good "say this" blurb.

Honest to god, I don't know how the hell Obama ballet dances his way outta this one. I haven't a clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 01:38 PM

Exactly...once the line "just a politician" is on the table, anything Obama says can be tossed back at him by just cynically remarking.."See? He is just respondinglike a politician!"

I'm not sure what anyone expects him to say...

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:03 PM

Another thread on "The Reverend," Janet? Multiple election threads is bad enough, multiple threads on individual candidates is worse, but having multiple threads on the candidates' pastors is going a bit too far, isn't it?

See if you can restrain yourself and start no more than one new thread a day, willya? It has been stated before that starting more than one new thread a day is probably too many. If you can practice some self-restraint, maybe I won't have to put you on a diet.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:30 PM

I dunno' Joe.......I hate all the crap myself but we either stop it all (cries of censorship), let it all go and hope everyone including those on all sides can restrain themselves a bit (unlikely), or start 4 threads.........Clinton, Obama, McCain, Primary News.

When the conventions come along allow two more then close them all after the conventions are both over and start three new ones. That's doable but will get some bitching. To me it just keeps all the political crappola within a few threads.

On the other hand, if all the poli/sci fetishists will cough up 20 bucks apiece and send it in to the 'Cat, we can devote an entire section to the election! No dough, 4 threads.

Spaw

---

No, I wouldn't go along with heavy-duty control - but I think that it's reasonable to ask individuals to start no more than one thread a day.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:11 PM

That's why the "Popular Views" series was started. The hope was, one bin would serve for all the Obama chat, another for all the Bush junk, and another for all the McCain trash, and maybe one for the Hillary gunk.

Unfortunately, every day is a new topic to some folks, not to mention every minute and every thought...



A

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:14 PM

Wright, in an interview, March 13, 2007 (yes, more than a year ago):

Question: Do you think (Obama) will be President in two years?

Wright: No. Unless Barak pulls off nationally what he was able to pull off locally, and wins the hearts and minds of people who have been perennially anti-black. Racism is so deeply engrained in this country that he could be flawless in terms of his policies. But he's still a black man in this country, which has a sorry history in terms of how it sees African-American males. That's my 65-year-old, jaded perception of where this country is. I was pleasantly surprised in the Senate election. I would like to be as pleasantly surprised in the presidential election.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:15 PM

As others have argued, Fantz, you have it dead wrong in thinking this is Wright v. Obama, it's...

...Jeremiah v. McMedia and right now Jeremiah is ahead on points!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:26 PM

Joe-

I was thinking of initiating my own thread on this topic, titled "Rev. Wright - a Loose Canon."

Of course I don't disagree with a lot of what he's actually saying but saying it loud and clear now at major news events, such as the Washington Press Club, can only provide aid and comfort to those who would like to see the Obama campaign derailed. Rev. Wright becomes the issue, rather than the campaign issues that voters should really be concerned about.

I don't think Rev. Wright is going to retire quietly.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:26 PM

From Reuters, just a few minutes ago:

"Whatever relationship I had with Reverend Wright has changed as a consequence of this," Obama said.

Y'all will hear the rest of it soon enough.

Consider Wright "off the train".

Obama did the right thing, hit the right note with his comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:35 PM

The very thing Wolfgang posted was similar to what the Governor of Pennsylvania said and got in hot water for. Sadly thouhg it is the truth.

Here in the heartland you can bet your ass that Obama will have a tough time in November. There are still some folks who won't tolerate a black prez and others here won't have a woman. But of the two a woman comes out ahead every time. Racism is still alive and well although its insidious and often well hidden. A woman will always fare better at this point in time.

Obama can do it here but he's going to have to overcome much history with Rev. Wright and get back on track as a "healing non-politician." Tough row to hoe........This is the unstated backing for the Clinton challenge when they say she can carry the "big states."   Everyone is going to have to bring this issue out from the depths and see what the Dems can do.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:48 PM

I seem to be having a lot of trouble with my return key these days.

Actually, I think a person--OK--a man of color could be elected fairly easily in the US, especially if it was Colin Powell for the Republicans.

I think it just depends upon the person, and whether they are conservative.

Conservative whites, even the racist ones, would go for Powell over a Clinton, IMO, even though there isn't much difference between the two ideologically.

Think Margaret Thatcher and Golda Meir.

Non-traditional "change" candidates can be elected, but only if they are conservatives, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:49 PM

Same 'round these parts, Spawzer... As long as black folk act like white folk want them to act then everything is okee dokee but "step outta line the man come and t6ake you away"...

That's 'bout as far as alot of white folks have come...

Here's what makes the Reverand a problem for Obama: the media thinks this is the only story??? How 'bout some of the things that McCain's men of cloth have said??? Hmmmmmmm???

(Well, that;s okay, Boberdz... Them folks is white...)

Yeah, racism has reared it's ugly head and it's coming our living rooms thru satalittes, rabbit ears and cable... And since media is white it has complete control of information and the conversations...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:57 PM

>>From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:35 PM

The very thing Wolfgang posted was similar to what the Governor of Pennsylvania said and got in hot water for. Sadly thouhg it is the truth.

Here in the heartland you can bet your ass that Obama will have a tough time in November. There are still some folks who won't tolerate a black prez and others here won't have a woman. But of the two a woman comes out ahead every time. Racism is still alive and well although its insidious and often well hidden. A woman will always fare better at this point in time.<<

What you say is true enough but the people who vote that way have been voting Republican for the last forty years and wouldn't vote for a white male Democrat who was eiter for Gun Control or Not anti-Gay Rights. I find it ironic that Hillary's main claim to be electable is that she can beat Obama head to head among people who will and always have overwhelmingly voted Republican in November.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:57 PM

TIA is right and Wright is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:07 PM

Sorry, but I ain't buyin' it's all the MSM's fault.

This whole Wright debacle demonstrates extremely poor judgment on Obama's part. This wound is self-inflicted.

That said, I do think he will likely stop the bleeding with the *second* press conference he called w/in 24 hours of Wright's National Press Club shenanigans.

If the MSM doesn't back off by tomorrow, then you will have a case to make against them.

But today? No, it is their job to cover this story, just like it was their job to cover it yesterday.

I hope for the sake of the nation everybody transcends this crap, because there is far worse shit to deal with than a bunch of washed up black nationalist race baiters, hogging the airwaves and hijacking the election to further their personal agendas and vendettas.

Do I sound bitter? ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:12 PM

NYT just posted a transcript of this afternoon's Obama press conference in NC. Here is the link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/29/us/politics/29text-obama.html?pagewanted=all

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:47 PM

No, Fantz, it is only "dabacle" in McMedia's eyes and that's the way that McMedia wants to keep it... This is about as much a non-story as I can rememeber in politics... It has lapped Willie Horton twice (Sorry, Willioe, but you can't outrun these guys...)

There are real stories out there but they might lead to corporate crap like the FCC selling off what were supposed to be free airwaves... Yeah, media loves to keep it right where it is... Every day they can hold Obama down is a good day for McMedia... They sell lots of ads and they keep alot of conversations from occuring...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:48 PM

Washington Post: ( will be gone in a few days)

A Pastor at Center Stage
And a Parishioner With Questions to Answer

By George F. Will
Tuesday, April 29, 2008; Page A17

Because John McCain and other legislators worry that they are easily corrupted, there are legal limits to the monetary contributions that anyone can make to political candidates. There are, however, no limits to the rhetorical contributions that the Rev. Jeremiah Wright can make to McCain's campaign.

Because Wright is a gift determined to keep on giving, this question arises: Can persons opposed to Barack Obama's candidacy justly make use of Wright's invariably interesting interventions in the campaign? The answer is: Certainly, because Wright's paranoias tell us something -- exactly what remains to be explored -- about his 20-year parishioner.

In yesterday's speech at the National Press Club, Wright repeated -- decorously, by his standards, but clearly -- his accusation, made the Sunday after Sept. 11, that America got what it deserved. His answer yesterday to a question about that accusation was: "Whatsoever you sow, that you also shall reap" and "you cannot do terrorism on other people and expect them never to come back on you."

As evidence that "our government is capable of doing anything," he strongly hinted that he has intellectually respectable corroboration -- he mentioned several publications -- for his original charge that the U.S. government is guilty of "inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color." But yesterday he insisted that he is not anti-American: It is, he said, Americans' government, not the American public, that is a genocidal perpetrator of terrorism. So, he now denies that America has a representative government -- that it represents the public. He believes that elections constantly and mysteriously -- and against the public's will -- produce a genocidal, terroristic government.

Yesterday, Wright also espoused the racialist doctrine that blacks have "different" learning styles from others'. This doctrine of racially different brains, or of an unalterably different black culture, is a doctrine today used to justify various soft bigotries of low expectations regarding blacks, and especially black children. It has a long pedigree as a rationalization for injustices. Slaveholders and, later, segregationists loved it.

Obama should be questioned about whether he agrees about "different" learning styles. It is, however, predictable that journalistic and political choruses will attempt to suppress such questioning by suggesting that it is somehow illegitimate. The "daisy ad" and "Willie Horton" will be darkly mentioned.

There have been two television ads in presidential campaigns concerning which there is a settled consensus of deep disapproval. In both cases, the consensus about these acts of supposed mischief is mistaken.

The first ad was used in 1964 by Lyndon Johnson against Barry Goldwater: A small girl plucked petals from a daisy as a voice counted down to a nuclear explosion. The ad, reflecting Johnson's fear that his large lead would cause complacency among his supporters, concluded with a voice saying: "The stakes are too high for you to stay home."

Goldwater and many of his supporters were incensed. But Goldwater had said several things suggestive of a somewhat cavalier attitude about the use of force, including nuclear weapons. He had made his judgment a legitimate issue.

In the spring of 1988, in a debate among candidates for the Democratic presidential nomination, Tennessee Sen. Al Gore used the matter of Willie Horton against Massachusetts Gov. Michael Dukakis, one of Gore's rivals. Horton had been in a Massachusetts prison serving a life sentence for the murder of a boy he stabbed 19 times during a robbery. Horton was frequently released on weekend furloughs. Finally, he fled, kidnapped a couple, stabbed the man and repeatedly raped the woman. Because the ad, made by supporters of Vice President George Bush, included a photo of Horton, critics called it racist. But supporters of Bush argued that the Horton episode was emblematic of Massachusetts' political culture, or of a liberal mentality, pertinent to assessing Dukakis.

When North Carolina Republicans recently ran an ad featuring Wright in full cry, McCain mounted his high horse, from which he rarely dismounts, and demanded that the ad be withdrawn. The North Carolinians properly refused. Wright is relevant.

He is a demagogue with whom Obama has had a voluntary 20-year relationship. It has involved, if not moral approval, certainly no serious disapproval. Wright also is an ongoing fountain of anti-American and, properly understood, anti-black rubbish. His speech yesterday demonstrated that he wants to be a central figure in this presidential campaign. He should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 06:15 PM

I dunno. Did Wright actually do this act, so Obama COULD throw him under the bus and somehow salvage his sagging campaign?

Or am I just too crazy to even think that?

I also am not too sure it will be enough to save Obama's campaign anyway.

As I said elsewhere yesterday, the Wright controversy is over a decade in the making, based on choices Obama obviously made when deciding to get into Chicago & Illinois politics as a way onto the national stage.

Sticking by Wright through thick and thin has been a very serious error in judgment on Obama's part.

Today, I can't help but wonder if it isn't too little, too late, and leaving far too many questions unanswered.

And thinking it isn't just Wright's arrogance that is at the heart of it, but Obama's arrogance too. I've long viewed both Michelle and Barack as having a serious arrogance problem. This whole sordid mess seems to have confirmed it for me, not made me think he is finally pulling out of the woods with throwing the reverend off the train.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 06:31 PM

The problem is, are the Democrats stuck with him as a candidate, or is there still time to do something?

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 06:38 PM

With apologies to Kris Kristofferson........

Help Me Make It Into June

Throw the Reverend from the train
Let the wheels slice through his ass
Hope his balls get smashed as well
And make his dick a pulpy mass
Could a coupler knock him dead
And flip him off into a ditch?
Throw the Reverend off the train
Gotta' beat that fuckin' bitch.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 07:28 PM

Gotta a nice little beat to it, Spawzer... I'd give it a solid "7"....

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 07:36 PM

Whoring with psychotic pastors is usually the domain of the right.
At least Obama had the common sense to finally call this pastor to be outside the mainstream and out of his mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 07:45 PM

But this pastor is NOT outside the African American mainstream.

And if even one other prominent African Americans leaps into the fray to defend Wright, what then?

It's still a huge mess, no matter what way you try and spin it.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 08:34 PM

Jeremiah Wright '08

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 09:11 PM

Gigi-

There are several explanations for Wright's recent behavior:

1. He is retired and feels a need to prove that he is not senile

2. He is bitter that his prize protegee has rejected him

3. He has accepted money from conservative Republicans to "do whatever he wants"

4. He sincerely believes what he has said and thinks that what he can say is more important than a primary battle between two liberal Democrats

Or all of the above!

It's all about Rev. Wright at this point and the national media are delighted to exploit him. What a story!

There is another theory, that he's doing this for Obama's own good, so he won't win the Democratic Primary and be assassinated, but that one is too wild even for me.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 09:38 PM

I am a Clinton supporter, and not a Christian, but I have to agree with Bobert on this one.

I guess no one watched Bill Moyer and Jeremiah Wright on PBS, a one-hour interview. Wright put his comments in context as they were in his sermon. He came across as an intelligent and thoughtful man, who explained his comments from biblical and common sense viewpoints.
Anyone who has ever attended a southern give-it-to-them sermon in a Black church would understand, and if in attendance perhaps would have been vocally re-enforcing his points with a "Yes, Lord." This type of sermon is completely foreign to white Americans who have never experienced life in areas with a large black community.
Of course, Wright also is a spell-binder and a salesman, otherwise he would never collect a large flock.

Unfortunately, the interview can only be had for some $25-30 on disc; it should be on the web free so at least a few more people can understand where he is coming from.

There is no way that Obama can support Wright and hope to win the vote of white Americans. It takes a Bill Moyers to get the truth and more time and space than any politician can hope to get in the media; even Obama supporters on CNN, etc., would not take the time to explain because most people had already closed their minds and would not take the time to listen!

Obama was forced to throw Wright off the train when the media and the public showed that they would never listen nor understand. Not the first time that sacrifices were deemed necessary in a political campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Jim Lad
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:04 PM

So now that he's thrown Wright from the train.... can we forget about the speech where he said it was all our fault or are we still just a bunch of bigots for not liking his pastor?
Oh! And what about his poor ould grandmother?
You know.... I'm getting really sick of being preached at!

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:09 PM

Q, I am probably one of the few people in this forum who both watched the Moyers program AND read the transcript.

Ditto Wright's address to the NAACP.

And his speech to the National Press Club, and the Q & A session which followed.

Both watched the video in it's entirety and read the transcripts.

He did not mention any of the inflammatory comments specifically in the Moyers interview, which was a very sympathetic, softball interview. He only alluded to them as soundbites.

However, that tenor changed dramatically by the time he was doing his Q & A before the National Press Club, where he was hostile and rude to the moderator, where he was extremely belligerent toward the press, and where he not only made no attempt to skirt the issue of the videotapes of his sermons, but went well beyond the pale as he reiterated those remarks, rationalized them, and then claimed the attacks weren't on him, but "The Black Church".

Now, all that is problematic on so many levels and from so many angles, most people don't even know where to grab on to the story to make any sense out of it.

The thoughtful, subdued man on Moyers was not the same man who was belligerent and in your face at the National Press Club a few short days later.

So what "truth" do you think Moyers got? Because I felt after watching that interview, that Moyers didn't get anywhere. I didn't know anything more about Wright than I did before he sat down with Moyers for the interview.

Don't forget, I've been following the Obama campaign stories through the Chicago media too, for well over a year now. The Rev Wright story isn't a new one, by any means.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:13 PM

Q - I saw quite a bit of the Moyers interview, I think, on C-Span. The Weekend in Washington thing. I agree that he came off very composed and seemed to make some good points.
                If he had stopped there, I don't think anything more would have become of it, but he upped the ante at the NAACP forum, and then ran completely off the reservation in front of the press corps meeting the following day.
                  Have you seen some of the clips that Fox News has put together from that last presentation? If Obama becomes the nominee, they'll run those clips 24 hours a day clear into November.


                  On a positive note, it's heart warming to see a politician treat a preacher the way preachers everywhere ought to be treated, for the betterment of mankind.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: pdq
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:13 PM

Jeremiah Wright also said that AIDS was invented by the White man as means of genocide against the Black man. How much do some of you need to hear?

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:17 PM

A politician goes where the wind blows- all of this talk of 'change' sounds good, but when one is elected and has to deal with 200 obstreperous comgressmen, its wheel and deal, gain a little here, lose a little there.
Clinton sounds a little more realistic, but it's all blarney from both of them (apologies to the Irish side of my ancestry).

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:19 PM

No argument there.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:40 PM

seems as if the good pastor jumped off the train his ownself.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:41 PM

The concept of throwing bible-Thumpers off the train seems like a really good idea to me. When are we going to get rid of the rest of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:46 PM

As a Christain, I agree, Rigs...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:03 AM

I'm waxing philosophical about it all this morning.

Knowing this tempest in a teapot over Wright's remarks is only relevant to the presidential ambitions of Obama, I then look at the incredibly unjust and demoralizing decision in the police brutality case regarding Sean Bell, and feel like I want to throw in the towel.

The punditocracy ignores the Sean Bell case, and instead goes running with their mics and camera after a man who was made irrelevant and redundant at the same time, and decided he wouldn't go gently into that good night.

Which of these two "race" stories most accurately reflects the "state of race relations" in the US today?

I would say, the Sean Bell case. An innocent man, showered in a hail of police bullets, murdered by their (the police officers') fear of black men.

But then, I also know the deeply disturbing saga of Damon Wayans' "Abortion Man" video:

http://whataboutourdaughters.blogspot.com/

That also is the truth I see everyday, living and working in the African American community too. Which also depresses me, and makes me want to make Spike Lee's film "Bamboozled" required viewing in every junior high school in America.

So today, I know the media won it's racist gotcha game. I feel deeply uncomfortable with it, but know the media was only able to get away with it because Obama allowed it to go this far. He has known all along he would have to throw Wright from the train, so why did he wait until it so poisoned the debate in the public square?

But then there is the part of me that empathizes with this man I detest for being the best corporate candidate in the history of the planet, because I know how unfair it is to expect one human being to "heal" the 600 year old racial wounds of a nation and a world, when that isn't what the dude is all about.

So, the whole thing still makes me sick. And when I think how cynically and evilly he is being manipulated by those corporate masters who are drowning him in their dollars, even sicker still.

To say it makes me ashamed to be an American doesn't even begin to cover it.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:06 AM

Actually, it makes me feel ashamed to be human, truly.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:58 AM

Did you see the entire National Press Club speech by Wright?

When he is not taking a dump in front of a presidential race parade he does have his entertaining moments. He does funny voices like Bill Cosby and cracks wise with about 1/4 the humor of Chris Rock.

Jesus took Peter aside and said "there are some things I can not reveal now because they (the other apostles) are not yet ready to understand them".
I bet it was Peter who was the one who could not understand.
Likewise the American people are not ready to understand the actual history of retro virus experimentation or the back story behind 9-11 (as we have seen on this forum alone)

Wright will take his seat on talk show panels in the future and will be the Mike Gravel of the Black voice for several years. Then he will pull an unforgivable gaff and become persona non gratia similar to Imus.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:58 AM

I do have to agree that it's Rev. Wright who has "thrown himself off the train," or if you prefer to the "media lions."

Obama probably anticipated that this might happen but had the "audacity" to hope it wouldn't.

If I were closer to the action I would also find it difficult to sleep.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:16 AM

I saw it all, Donuel. The original videotapes that were sold on the church's website--in their entirety.

I saw & read the complete, unedited videos and transcripts of the Obama race speech in Philadelphia, the Moyers interview, the NAACP speech, the Press Club speech, and Press Club Q & A.

I figure I am very well informed to speak to the Wright debacle, and at the end of the day, fault Obama for playing the religion card to further his political ambitions and make himself more electable to begin with. The sucking up to religious voters game has duly blown up in his face. I can confidently say, he had that one coming. His chickens came home to roost.

That said, while Obama was busy playing religions cards, the media was playing the race card on him, to trump his religion cards, so to speak.

Now, how come a not that smart honky like me can figure out what is happening, while the smartest guys in Obama's back room couldn't figure it out, including the Obamas themselves?

No, sir. I won't blame this all on the media. The Obamas and their supporters are really smart people, and know how to play the MS politics and MSM games to their advantage. They know how to vacuum up the money. Obama is an extraordinarily gifted mainstream politician. I never bought the campaign propaganda that he wasn't a "politician as usual" politician, because I view him as the newest cynical, manipulative incarnation of the "US politician as usual". They morph into their opposite every now and then, when times for the voters get a little rough.

Politics 101. See disgruntled electorate, become opposite of the person who disgruntles them most. Voila! President Obama.

It ain't rocket science.

Nope, this one is bad judgment on the Obama campaign's part. Just like the Clinton debacle on tarmac in Bosnia, or wherever, story.

Clinton is far more experienced, and her quick mea culpa turn around in the most watched presidential debate yet was very astute and savvy.

Compare that to the Obama campaign. Faltering, stumbling, off message, demoralized, letting the loose cannon wander off reservation for days before blasting him into oblivion...no, that is just plain stupid. Not the moves of somebody who can pivot, toss the grenade back in the other guys lap, and cross the finish line in a cloud of obfuscating smoke (the current standard in US presidential elections).

Like it or not, we have voluntarily walked ourselves to the end of this plank. One of these three assholes is the next leader of the free world.

And that should make everybody sleep badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:40 AM

And don't forget, Donuel, I am the one who has tried to draw attention to the Ward Churchill 9/11 "Chickens Coming Home to Roost" comparisons.

I followed that story very closely, because I have been personally acquainted w/Churchill in my past.

What Wright says about 9/11, IMO, is absolutely true.

What is absolutely nuts, IMO, are his claims that because Tuskegee happened, that AIDs is the same deal. Not rational. Get the hook, pull him off the stage, please.

I know his position on "the Palestinian question" is likely also rooted in black nationalist contempt for Jews, which is legendary at this point. I hate that about the black nationalists--their anti-Semitism makes me sick, far more than their whitey race baiting tactics, which I often find amusing.

Remember, the thing that ruined Jesse Jackson's chances at the presidency was his Hymietown remark. Shot himself in his own damn two feet.

As far as I'm concerned, Obama did the same damn thing vis a vis Wright.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:44 AM

Fantasma - I agree with everything you state above. But it seems to me like the problems with this campaign--and propably a number of others that weren't as obvious because the didn't last as long--started with the Iowa Caucuses. Special interest groups within the Iowa structure sprung loose two wing nuts on the American public, Huckabeen and Obama. The Republicans were able to sideline their wing nut, but not before he did a lot of damage. I think both parties ought to get rid of caucuses all together.

                      That having been said, if you watched the entire videos of the various sermons--I couldn't imagine sitting through an entire sermon myself, I can barely tolerate commercials--but when Wright made the "coming home to roost" comment, was he really quoting the ambassador to Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM

I can't remember, I'd have to go back and look it up.

My recollection of his most controversial remarks about 9/11, is that it was his sermon the Sunday after 9/11, when vengeance run amok was everywhere, and he was trying to pull his congregation back from that.

IMO, he did the right thing attempting to do that, so I can't diss him for that.

I was more focused on that aspect of the video as I watched.

Wright's subsequent claims this week that he was quoting the Iraq ambassador, was completely off my radar.

Don't know if that helps any, but that is what I'm recalling. The media didn't put Wright's remarks in the context of "the Sunday after 9/11" IMO. Far worse and more inflammatory rhetoric was being spewed in mainstream white churches and synagogues in the wake of 9/11--where they were all screaming for bloody vengeance it seemed at the time--and far more frightening to me at the time.

9/11 brought out the white racist lynch mob--whether parading in god's clothes or the general's clothes. My greatest fear at the time was they closed the borders, so I and my family couldn't get out if we needed to.

Some of us have FBI files for our political activism and political associations over the years, and both my partner and I were, like many of our friends and political associates, terrified for our own personal safety in the weeks that followed 9/11. When the Canadian border was reopened, we heaved a huge sigh of relief.

Scary times, and we still aren't past them. For instance, we are pretty nervous about the RNC coming to our town. My partner & I (when I went to pick him up) got pulled in by airport security coming back from Philly (he was there at the same time as the pres candidates, shooting an unrelated documentary) with his TV camera.

We know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: heric
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:09 PM

I haven't seen any of the Wright video, but the description of a person with a responsible and rational approach, and a faultless demeanor, changing within a few days to a pompous, aggressive demagogue in front of other press members a few days later seems to be relevant to his motives. In other words, it doesn't seem likely that he had a plan to repay Obama, or harm him in any way, or it would have been more obvious at the start, no? Speculating, it seems more likely that he sees his duty to speak the truth as he sees it, and when antagonized, his frustration when faced with a dilemma –plain truth versus campaigning nuance – got the better of him?

Still hard to understand, though, what motivated him to set up that press schedule, especially with no prior notice to Obama. Selfishness seems most likely (but not rising to the level of deliberate self-aggrandizement, and not out of spite, either.) Just a guess. It really is a WTF event.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:16 PM

Well, gol danged...

Who here doesn't have friends who have strange views??? George Bush and John McCain certainly have some... I mean, lets get real here, we all do... Now take the numbers of folks you are friends with who hold strange views and multiple that by a 100 because politicans have lots more friends than the average guy on the street...

So here we have people running for office who are friends with one heck of alot of folks who hold strange views...

Question #1: Should we expect candidates to disasssociate themselves from their friends who have strange views???

(But, Bobert, this was Obama's pastor and a man from whom Obama recieved counsel!!!)

So??? Exactly how does this change the original question??? Advice and counsel about what??? Foriegn policy??? The economy???

Question #2: Given the policies that Obama has put forth which policy has Jeremiah Wright's finger prints on it???

(But, Bobert, why did Obama wait so long to jetison Rev Wright???)

Okay, maybe he is human and has a sense of loyalty to his friends, regardless of their strange views... Is that a crime??? Or sin???

Lets get real here, I have friends who have strange views, some of whom are regulars here in Mudville (lol...)... It's a hard thing to tell a friend that "it's over"... If anything, it makes me respect Obama more for sticking to his friend until McMedia made it painfully clear that McMedia would accept nothing less than a fully prostrated Obama...

McMedia 1, Obama 0 on this one...

Now maybe McMedia will do the same to McCain and McClinton and find one of their supporters with strange views and put them thru the hoops to see how well they do in the McMedia's Prostrate Test???

B~)

P.S. I still like what Jeremiah Wright says... I think he's an entertaining and very thoughfull man... Do I agree with everything he says??? No, I don't agree with everything anyone says... But he will make you think, that muchy is for sure...

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:59 PM

Thank you, Bobert, That is a good 'un.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:02 PM

heric, it is a WTF thing. Little bits and pieces of possibly relevant info will dribble out in the coming weeks. For instance, it was only today that I learned Wright called Moyers and requested the interview. That fact isn't being widely reported in the press. I also don't know what it means in the "big scheme" and I don't know who's "big scheme" it is driving these events.

I'm guessing most everyone except the players involved are in the dark, just like we are.

But there are bound to be other shoes dropping, so I guess we all wait to see how many, depending on how many legs this saga grows.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Voice of Truth
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:25 PM

The debacle with Obama's minister, who, I believe, is just revealing his true self, is just part of the problems with Obama's electability.Obama distancing himself NOW, after recently saying that Rev. Wright was like his family and could not be discarded, looks false and manipulative. Obama saying he didn't 'know' this (side of ) Rev. Wright either looks like Obama is totally myopic on the character of those in his life (surely not a good trait for President) OR that he is just another typical truth twisting politician.

Newsweek recently came up with a list of five reasons he is not electable, besides the two decade alliance with Wright's hate mongering church is: a financial scandal, Obama's race in (a sadly still) bigoted nation, the inexperience factor and the final point that Obama may just not have the drive and power to win compared to other seasoned candidates.

I know that most times I have posted here, as a Hillary supporter, I have been attacked.(if my posts themselves have not been deleted) But I do wish the Obama supporters would take a long hard look at the flaws in this candidate. How can one not question why a man who is supposedly devoted to unity spent so many years in the tutelage of a hate spewing ,paranoid, postering man like Wright? . Obama previously explained that Wright was just an 'old fashioned' civil rights type- but actually Wright is now being revealed to being grandiose, accusatory, insular hatemonger. Don't forget that 'old fashioned' civil rights leaders also included visionaries like Martin Luther King. Perhaps the dyed in the wool supporters of Obama will again choose to turn a blind eye and not see the discrepency here, not to mention the blatant hypocrisy of their candidate of 'unity'.

(btw, I would like to say that since the sixties I have belonged to two houses of worship; BOTH have been multi-racial and multi -ethnic; that has been MY conscious choice - I have also been to all black and all white ministries, and I NEVER have heard, nor would I have long tolerated, the rantings of such a maniacal individual as Rev. Wright)


I still believe, more than ever, that Obama's campaign is destined to fail, and that Hillary is the only chance the Democrats have to beat McCain.

Obama supporters may STILL not see the widening fissures in Obama's character, nor find any doubts in his abliities to lead this country.

But I know that the vast majority of voters of this nation will.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:52 PM

Newsweek recently came up with a list of five reasons he is not electable, besides the two decade alliance with Wright's hate mongering church is: a financial scandal, Obama's race in (a sadly still) bigoted nation, the inexperience factor and the final point that Obama may just not have the drive and power to win compared to other seasoned candidates.

These might look insurmountable until you stack them up against the problems with Hillary and McCain, and then they look rather paltry by comparison.

Hillary and McCain voted for and supported an unpopular war. Hillary is almost universally reviled by Republicans, who will mobilize the Republican vote against her if she is the nominee - many of whom would likely stay home on election day if Obama is the nominee, because they really dislike McCain.

Hillary has financial scandals in her background as well, and while her supporters may think they are old news, many voters will not, and the Republican machine will make sure no one forgets about them. Hillary's race in (a sadly still) sexist nation. Remember, Blacks got the vote before women did. Hillary cannot compete with McCain on the experience factor, either. Hillary cannot compete with McCain on many of the things she's campaigning against Obama on, like readiness on day one, national security, experience, etc, and she doesn't have Obama's advantage of not having voted for the war.

McCain has the disadvantage of having voted for the war, and having supported many of the Bush policies that the electorate is angry about. He also has political and financial scandals in his background. He is disliked by many Republicans. His health care proposals do not address the problem of pre-existing conditions. His approaches to many of the problems the voters face today will not significantly help the people who are most in need. Essentially his approach is the same as the Republicans' approach has been for decades. Voters are suffering because of this approach and they want a new and better approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:58 PM

A person attack me for being naive about Obama, then complains about being attacked.

A person speaking for the vast majority of votes in this country then accuses someone else for being grandiose

Change it to "Voice of my own opinion which is worth as much as anyone else's" And someone might care what you say. It is certainly not your place to judge what is truth for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:26 PM

Yo, Truth-ster... This ain't meant to be an attack but you need a new handle to better reflects reality... You are biased... Hey, it's okay to be biased (not prejudice) but you are defending your ***opinion***...

I agree with Jack... Yer handle needs a serious make-over...

No dis intended...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Voice of Truth
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:26 PM

Most of the recent polls are showing that Obama will either tie or lose to McCain. Hillary beats McCain in the polls. Obama may have the appearance of being a 'different type of politician' but many voters are increasingly finding him to be untrustworthy. Or at least, of being no more trustworthy than any other politician. With his lack of experience, even those who trust his word implicitly must question if he can implement change. And with the recent Wright scandal, many pundits are predicting a free fall for Obama.

McCain may very well pick up Independents, undecideds and Reagan Democrats, (besides folks who are anti Obama for..other reasons) which will offset the right wing of his party that distrusts him.

Hillary is the candidate to beat McCain. It is still, in many areas, a sexist nation, as you mentioned,and I believe that accounts for much of the antagonism to Hillary; even on this site I hear vicious, mysogonist (and just plain silly) rantings about her qualificaitons that really come down to viewing her as an 'uppity b***h. There's often more comments on her marriage or how she wears her pantsuits than about her qualifications, her platforms and her successes in the Senate. But there has been a(perhaps underreported) groudswell of support for the idea of a woman candidate, not just from women, but from men who have no prejudice against a woman leader, and especially from those who want to see their daughters being able to live and THRIVE in a better world.

One may be tempted to forget that half the nation is women. But do not be surprised to find there may be many women who even have, in the past, voted straight Rebublican all their lives, but who will enter the curtained sanctuary of the voting booth, and think about the struggles of their lives and the future of their children. Those woman have a chance to step out of the marginalized role that has been women's history for many centuries, and they will pull the lever for Hillary. I think she is the better candidate overall, but besides that, she is, in my opinion, the only candidate who has a chance of winning against the very powerful Republican party.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:31 PM

Most of the recent polls are showing that Obama will either tie or lose to McCain. Hillary beats McCain in the polls.

This will change once the Republican machine aims its sights on her instead of Obama. They are currently gunning for Obama in my state, which is having its primary on May 6th. They are not gunning for Hillary. This is because they would rather run against Hillary in the fall than Obama. Once the Republican attack machines level their sights on Hillary, she is toast.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:03 PM

Voice of truth. You say a number of things which, while valid as opinions, do pass the muster as facts.

Certainly Hillary will get some female Republicans to vote for her. But, God forbid, if she is the nominee, a lot more Republicans will be motivated to come out and vote against her and her husband.

Last week Obama was beating McCain by ten points. Next week he will be again.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:08 PM

Polls these day change faster than the weather...

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:09 PM

By the way, the Republican women I know would rather pull out all of their own teeth themselves than vote for Hillary. They hate her. And the prospect of having a woman for president will not persuade them to feel or think otherwise. I know some women who are unaffiliated who feel that way as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:37 PM

dd how similar VOT sounds to other anonymous voices we've heard echoing through these hallowed cyberhalls in days past.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:11 PM

Actually, it is the polls that are more accurate (which isn't saying much, because the nature of polling is changing in this election due to more voters living w/out landlines) than the pundits at this point.

They seem unwilling to go with their race baiting leads with Wright. However, there is absolutely no solid evidence that the Wright story has hurt Obama one bit among his supporters, we know he is unlikely to lose a single vote in the African American community, because they are voting to save the race, not the candidate, and the numbers haven't moved since Super Tuesday much at all, despite Clinton's big wins.

No, I don't think you can say anyone is "unelectable" at this point, because there just doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm out there for ANY of the three candidates outside their core supporters, who are refusing to budge.

With the voters split three ways, this is a race tailor made for a third party or indie run. Not even the big bogeyman of the angry black man can scare voters off their preference.

Which leave the mysterious and unknown gap between the Dems & Repubs the MSM refuses to talk about, the swing/independent voters.

Party partisans seem to be saying "none of the above". Hence the Dem deadlock, and underwhelming support for McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:18 PM

Carol, it is clear you don't speak for all women voters--Clinton regained women she had lost to Obama in the PA primary. A lot of them, in fact.

Soccer moms may like the idea of flirting with the sexy new boy, but they are going to vote dinner table and school issues. Which is why they are drifting back to Clinton.

Honest to god, I think voters recognize the country is in such fucking awful shape, they don't give a damn about party affiliation this year. They just want to stop the pain and suffering they see all around them, everywhere you look.

Even well to do Republicans who were rubbing everyone's face in their good fortune are putting on the poor mouth these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:31 PM

No I don't speak for any women voters. I am talking about the Republican women I know, and also some independents. I don't speak for them, either. I am only reporting what they have told me.

The polls have swung back in favor of Obama today.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:35 PM

Who does speak for all women voters???

Chongo? (I know he'd like to...but I don't think he does! Not even close.)

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:43 PM

Polls accurate???

Hey, we have polls out there that are 12 points different on the same questions...

Accurate, my butt...

Not only that but polls this far out from November and with all the politics and problems, if one wants to live on today's polls, fine, have at it... These polls don't mean jack in the long run... Too volitile a year... Like '68... Things are gonna change on the ground week to week until November and as a poli-sci/ed major in college, I'm lovin' all of it... Even when McMedia beats up Obama...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:55 PM

I said the polls were more accurate than the pundits, who keep trying to make Wright a 24/7 story--which, amazingly enough, keeps the focus on Obama. No surprise there, the MSM pundits don't want to talk about any thing but Obama, Obama, Obama.

They have completely lost the plot with their Obama obsessions.

Voters could give a shit, they can't afford a tank of gas and grocery shopping in the same week any more, the economy is so bad.

Any candidate who doesn't play to the "it's the economy, stupid" ain't gonna get very far this year.

But my crystal ball is burned out. I haven't a clue what is going on in Indiana or NC, nor would I dare make any predictions about the outcome at this point. Except to say, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if next Tuesday's result leaves us in exactly the same place we are today. Deadlocked.

I loved the Florida voters demonstrating outside DNC headquarters today though! The one bright spot of the news day, to be sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:14 PM

The Florida voters should be demonstrating in front of their own legislature. They are the ones that screwed with their franchises.

I would say that it is likely that the people demonstrating were Republican staffers. Just like the demonstrators against the recounts in 2000.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:20 PM

Well, yer preachin' to the choir on McMedia's fascination with keeping such a non-issue as the Obama/Wright thing going forever, Fantz... I don't get it either... Well, yes I do... There are folks within McMedia that don't mind "the nigga" being prez-ee-dent as long as "the nigga" has bowed down to them before becoming prez-ee-dent??? Like, what's that all about, Fantz??? They ain't put McCaion 'er yer gal, McClinton, in that trick bag???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:25 PM

"my crystal ball is burned out"

Yeah, mine too.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:26 PM

One of the demonstrators in Florida, when asked whether or not she was a Hillary supporter, said, "We're not supposed to talk about that".

LOLOL

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Donuel
Date: 01 May 08 - 08:51 AM

Politics is not rocket science, it is a practice of acquiring power by great wealth or great emotions, usually both.

Acquiring power by great truth is a difficult road to hoe but Obama is doint it anyway.


Faulting Obama for revealing that he is a church goer (pandering to religionists as you put it) is like McCain calling the populist candidate an elitist. That dog won't hunt.

Hillary's phoney southern babtist accent is pandering, McCain's Bob Jones visits and accepting the endorsement of pastors of immense bigotry and hatred is pandering. Barak does not pander to religionists in any way shape or form as you suggest.


To make this a campaign of guilt by wierd association and relationships is the opposite of the entire spirit of the Gettysburg address. (this is important to understand)

YES Barak could launch into the sick associations that Hillary and McCain have but I believe he is too honorable and smart to go down that divisive road of hate and fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 01 May 08 - 08:55 AM

Donuel,

Did ya' see Hillary tryin' to get the gas pump to work yesterday???

I instantly thought of you... Get to work on a cartoon...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: john f weldon
Date: 01 May 08 - 09:04 AM

Hey, I got my crystal ball workin':
Obama/Clinton battle causes mutual destruction.
Nov 2008... ...McCain/Huckabee win landslide.
Jan 2009... ...McCain's sudden demise called "Act of God" by Huckabee.
Feb 2009... ...Global Holy War announced by Huckabee.
March 2009... ...Huckabee vanishes; possible Rapture effect?
April 2009... ...world ends.

...jf (psychic) weldon

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 01 May 08 - 09:17 AM

Well, geeze, Weldon... No actaul date??? Just April??? That's not too helpfull, pal... If I just had a date I'd know whether or not to make my mortgagae payment on the 1st... I mean, if the world ain't gonna end to like the 10th then I wouldn't worry about gettin'
hit with a late fee...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 May 08 - 07:21 PM

If you consult your crystall ball again, John F, I think you will clearly see, not Mike Huckabee but Mitt Romney. (That's OK, it's a natural mistake; both names begin with the same initial)

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 08 - 07:25 PM

And here I was thinking Condoleeza Rice would be McCain's perfect choice for VP. Geez.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 08 - 07:54 PM

100!!!!!!

Oh, what a rush.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 01 May 08 - 08:06 PM

I would love to see Condi as VP... She may not be the smartest Sect, of State but when she puts on them high heel boots that come up to the knees....

....ouch!!! Them boots is in fir doin' some serious walkin'...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 01 May 08 - 08:12 PM

MN Governor Pawlenty's name is, according to local sources, on McCain's short list. Supposedly. He is an absolutely vile swine.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 08 - 08:13 PM

Perhaps, but I bet he can't match Condoleeza for sheer deadliness.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 01 May 08 - 09:30 PM

Word on the street is that Hillary might be available....

McCain/Clinton '08...

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: pdq
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:02 PM

MN governor Tim Pawlenty:

"His mother died of cancer when he was 16 and he was reared in a working-class neighborhood — later featured in a campaign commercial — by a Teamster father who brought up five kids on a milk truck driver's salary.

And even though he topped out on his high school's junior varsity squad, Pawlenty still laces up the skates and plays ice hockey with other over-the-hill ex-jocks.

Add in his fondness for fishing — after hockey, the state's other obsession — and 'TPaw', as the North Star State chattering class calls him, fits the mold of an average Minnesota guy.

That regular-guy, suburban persona is matched with retail political skills that have enabled him to twice win election in a left-leaning state with a long progressive tradition.

'He's a phenomenal talent,' says Lawrence Jacobs, a University of Minnesota political science professor. 'He's Clintonian in terms of being able to connect with an audience. It just drives Democrats crazy.'

One of those Democrats who battled Pawlenty when the governor served as state House Majority Leader was Roger Moe, the Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party stalwart who served as state Senate Majority Leader for over two decades.

'Politically, he's pretty skilled, no question about it,' says Moe, who lost in a three-way gubernatorial race to Pawlenty in 2002. 'He's a bright guy .'"


The man also plays Rock'n'Roll guitar and is a big fan of Springsteen.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:06 PM

Well, pdq, that' certainly refreshing.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 02 May 08 - 07:26 PM

And while factually accurate, the man is still an absolutely vile swine, only slightly less loathsome than Sen Norm Coleman.

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Bobert
Date: 02 May 08 - 07:35 PM

Slime Time....

Subject: RE: BS: Throw the Reverend from the Train
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 May 08 - 09:21 PM

Springsteen is officially endorsing Obama. Does Pawlenty know? ;-)