BS: A caring Government??

Subject: BS: A caring Government??
From: strad
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:48 AM

Just had my occupational pension chitty through the post and find that the tax on my pension has gone up 34% as a result of the abolition of the 10p tax rate. They'll be asking me to vote for them again soon - somehow I don't think so. Fortunately my wife is still working so the effect is not too severe, but I feel sorry for those on fixed low incomes with all the escalating prices.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:38 PM

Yes. The trouble is, though, no matter who you vote for...the government always wins. It's that way in the USA and Canada too.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: GUEST,Hard times come again no more.
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:13 PM

Getting harder and harder to live within one's means, no doubt about it. Unless you are a multi millionaire, there's no way to keep up with the bloated rising costs of housing, gasoline, food, health care, college costs for one's children - not to mention clothes, entertainment, etc. Even people with relatively high assets are feeling a pinch.

I have heard that in some countries like France, Denmark, Norway (which admittedly are prosperous and small nations)   most citizens are living quite comfortably, instead of always struggling and wondering if they will be capsized by the next increase in living expenses. Their taxes may be higher, but you get something for your dollar. I wonder if we have any citizens from those countries who can share their experiences. Do they feel their government cares about them? Is it just the 'bigger' nations. Is it the status quo in the world today to be resigned to living under the tight handed fist of their government? Or is it just the way it is everywhere.

It is not only people on fixed incomes who must live in fear, but it is a stress for young families, single mothers, people approaching retirement, and many others.

(This is not to say that the USA government does NOTHING about these issues, but just that so many people are feeling the crunch now and no relief in sight.)

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:39 PM

I'm in the 60-65 pension bracket so will be hit too!

The problem is I trust the other lot an awful less than I do this lot -I know Alastair Darling is like John Major without the charisma, but is David Cameron really the communist that he makes out?

I think you'll find this lot will do something to compensate -they must realise they've dropped a big one here.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:40 PM

"I think you'll find this lot will do something to compensate -they must realise they've dropped a big one here."


They've SAID they will compensate, but NOT how or when.

I think that one will go down at the bottom of their eleven year list of broken promises.

I keep a good lookout for flying pigs these days.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:24 PM

Better than absolute ones. Snouts in the trough is the conservative tradition.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 May 08 - 03:18 AM

Like strad I got a pension increase last month but because of the tax change I now actually get less than before the increase, I would find it hard to vote Labour again but I expect I will.

Vague hints by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of some unknown recompense at some unknown future date do not give me confidence.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 May 08 - 03:57 AM

I am a member of the Labour Party. I have been knocking on doors for 5 weeks so I know how many people feel.

When in opposition you can say anything and we did.

Now we are in government we do things. Somethings, far too many, we do wrong. I wont list them all - you all have a list. The abolition of the 10p was a stupid mistake but I guess most people will be compensated.

I wont bore you with what we've got right but I remain a member because I think the Labour Party is an organisation for getting things done and clearly I think we have got more right than wrong and I do think we care much about justice and the re-distribution of wealth than the Tories.

By and large people don't vote for the re-distribution of wealth so we have tried to do it by stealth.

Alternatives? I have a few, but then again too few to mention!

To day we will be judged and that's the way it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 May 08 - 07:18 AM

Looks like Rudd is going to 'look after' those on less than $80,000 p.a., and 'hit the rich' to pay for it....

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 May 08 - 08:31 AM

Les, so far we've only had hints from the Chancellor about unknown recompense at some unknown date in the future, but he's taking fecking money off me NOW.

eric [ ex Labour party member ]

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:34 AM

True enough. I think technically it would be difficult to put things right straightaway, I guess that we have to get this right in the end although ti will be difficult to get 100% right and the Tory press will hammer us for anything less.

I know it's no consolation but "quite a few" people have expressed their views to me as I bother them on the doorstep, and so they should. Ionly hope it clears the brains of our government and stops them doing anything else so stupid.

Les

Not holding his breath.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 May 08 - 01:35 PM

"I do think we care much about justice and the re-distribution of wealth than the Tories".

By and large people don't vote for the re-distribution of wealth so we have tried to do it by stealth."


Redistribution fine, but not in THAT direction.

Les, although we vote for different parties, I have nothing against members of the labour party.

We Tories get slagged off on a regular basis by people who wish us all sorts of harm.

The problem that besets us all is that we choose our representatives according to how much we trust their promises, and we do not have the option to remove them when they break those promises, and ignore our needs.

Perhaps party members on both sides need to be more stringent with selection of candidates.

How about making them post a large bond as a deposit, returnable at the end of the term if, and only if, they have performed satisfactorily?


Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 May 08 - 04:02 PM

I know the feeling and I bloody WORK for the Government.

It seems that everyone else in my office is crowing about their pay rises - anything from £2 to £20. I appear to be the only one who has lost money - £8 a month, which is a paperback book or three pints of beer or enough veggies for a week.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 May 08 - 09:31 AM

It's a good point you make Don.

We pick our candidates and the electorate elects them.So far so good. The Labour Party has a long winded system for generating policy, also good. Labour governments follow policy until it would be wrong,then do something else, still good.

Parties and electorate don't like elected members we have an election - change or not - all good.

The problem for me is parties with no connection to the grassroots - they just make it up as they go along with out reference to the roots. This could be Tory or Labour currently and it's not good.

As for fines - the rich can pay them.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 May 08 - 12:59 PM

Les, I've got a horrible feeling that you're one of those people who would still vote Labour if they burned your house down and sold your children into slavery! Such loyalty makes no sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Rasener
Date: 02 May 08 - 01:01 PM

Les In Chorlton
>>I wont bore you with what we've got right but I remain a member because I think the Labour Party is an organisation for getting things done and clearly I think we have got more right than wrong and I do think we care much about justice and the re-distribution of wealth than the Tories.
<<
Ha
I want the labour Government to

Get the National health sorted out with clean bug free wards that are not mixed and only a short waiting list and patients looked after properly.

Give the police the powers to sort out all the loutish yobbo's and troublemakers and slam them in the clink and leave them there. Bring Law and Order back the way it should be.

To me, those are 2 of the most important things that might establish some pride back in this country.

Brown will never do that. he is a shifty, smug, rob doggin', do nothing Prime Minister who has never been voted in by means of a genereal election. he is a man running scared and I don't trust him one inch.

I'll get me vote

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Rasener
Date: 02 May 08 - 01:10 PM

In fact he is one of the worst Prime Minister's this country has ever had the misfotune to have in my 62 years on this planet.

I warned my neighbour when the Labour Party got in for the first time with Tony Blair, that they would bring the country to its knees, just like they did the previous time they were in.

This country is in ruin.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 02 May 08 - 01:34 PM

I share your dismay strad, I like yourself saw my pension slip take a hit. It really doesn't matter which party (Labour or Conservative)is in power. One looks after the wealthy, the other the workshy. It's the middle ground that has to pay both !

As Guest remarked on such countries as France, Denmark and Norway. These countries don't close down public services one day and send an overseas aid cheque out the next. They look after their own people.

I am sick to death listening to news stories about "Deprived areas". The benefit system in this country makes provision are every man,woman and child. I don't get free prescriptions, free dental work, income support,your council tax or rent/mortgage paid for you, tax credits or any other bloody handout. Is there a government funded community centre in your area ? Have you saw government money pumped in where you live to regenerate it ?

That bloody war in Iraq is bleeding us, have you any idea how much we have thrown at it over the years. We live in a workshy country here in the UK were people can opt out of workforce with neither pressure or incentive to return to it.

I also didn't vote labour, for the first time in my life.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 May 08 - 02:47 PM

Villain

"Get the National health sorted out with clean bug free wards that are not mixed and only a short waiting list and patients looked after properly."

If only it was that simple. One of the challenges facing the NHS is the rising number of people who hang around being a bit ill using resources for years ie me and the others who are living longer. The second one is it is a massive and a massively expensive organisation. It has to be managed and their has to be a balance between care and management of care, they are not alternatives. It is still pretty good and spendsless on admin. than the alternatives

"Give the police the powers to sort out all the loutish yobbo's and troublemakers and slam them in the clink and leave them there. Bring Law and Order back the way it should be."

If you know how to sort out loutish yobbos please say how. Most people who go to prison go back later - it doesn't seem to work. We could lock people up for the rest of their lives although we couldn't afford that or we could kill lots of people - why not we do it in wars?

The country is not on its knees. More people are in work than ever and that's not a bad thing.

In case anybody forgot the Iraq war was is an utter disaster but don't forget who brought the war in Ireland to an end - I know not entirely but pretty well.

Cheers

Voters have told us something and I respect that.

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 May 08 - 04:50 PM

When you're fit and healthy and in work everything seems relatively rosy. It's when you, or someone close to you, gets sick, or you lose your job that the rotteness reveals itself.

When my Dad was enduring his last illness the medical staff were either reluctant to discuss him with my brothers and I ("patient confidentiality") or we got a variety different stories from the seemingly endless members of staff (a different one every time) that we met. You would think that no elderly person had ever got ill before! On the other hand we only met one social worker - who demanded that we force him to sell his house and get him into a nursing home as soon as possible.

One of my best mates died recently from C. difficile - which he caught in hospital. I watched him deteriorate before my eyes ...

When I was made redundant, a couple of years ago, I 'signed on'. I then found myself in a Kafkaesque situation in which I had to report every two weeks to people who never seemed to have encountered an unemployed person before but had vaguely heard of them and knew them to be beneath contempt. I was forced to undergo this fortnightly ordeal in order to receive a monthly National Insurance stamp. They couldn't pay me any 'Job Seeker's Allowance' because of I was receiving a miniscule pension - but that didn't stop them sending me letters inviting me to attend interviews and threatening to stop my £0 per month JSA if I refused! I turned up to four of these interviews to find each one had been cancelled when I got there.

Now Mr Brown is stealing an even bigger chunk of the aforersaid miniscule pension. At the same time he seems prepared to sacrifice millions of pounds in tax in order to avoid offending various 'fat cats' and billionaire 'non-doms'.

F*ck Tony Blair and f*ck Gordon Brown and f*ck the Labour Party! All they've succeeded in doing is condemning us to another two or three decades of Tory misrule!

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: akenaton
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:22 PM

Right on Shimrod!!
We laugh at American political naivity, but we are no better.
The modern "Labour Party" has hauled the names of the real socialists who founded the party through the mire.
Blair is gone, but some say he was a great Labour prime minister.
He was a disaster, and a criminal. Only one good thing in his legacy....He has brought foward Scottish independence by a decade.
Brown is a bumbling coward, afraid of his own dark shadow.
He should resign now and the "Labour Party" should be disbanded.
I can count the socialists in it's ranks on the fingers of one hand, and the hypocritical "left wing" celebrity socialists are the worst of all.
We need a new beginning.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Rasener
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:49 PM

My brother had his colon removed a month ago due to cancer.He was pronounced as clear of the cancer. He has not been very well, so I kept away from visiting him. However on Wednesday I decided to visit him, as he was still unwell.\His son had given the doctor a bollocking and told him to go and see my brother on Tuesday.
I was shocked at how ill he was. I was told by his wife that he still had a bladder infection (it was rebuilt in the operation).
Guess what, the stupid F*****g doctor arrived tonight (Friday evening) and ordered an ambulance to rush him to hospital with renal failure. Will he survive? I don't know.
But what I do know is nobody cares these days and the NHS is absolute bollocks.
If my brother dies, I feel like going round to that arshole of a doctor and removing his bollocks.
Gordon Brown you are a week livered waste of space.
Sorry about the swearing, but I am very angry at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Rasener
Date: 02 May 08 - 06:16 PM

They have him on a drip, and a registrar is monitoring him and the consultant will see him tomorrow. It seems that they have managed to stablise him for tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 02 May 08 - 06:59 PM

The Villian, write to your brothers GP and request how the situation was allowed to happen. Put the wind up him, doctors are quite skilled at side tracking the truth to people face to face after a F..k up.

They hate having to answer by letter as the don't know where it could end. This is a man's life here, and after such a traumatic ordeal he didn't need this. Hope he gets sorted. Make the ward staff aware you want fully informed of his progress.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Rasener
Date: 03 May 08 - 01:55 AM

Thanks Victor
Advice taken on board and if I don't send the letter, I will make sure soembody in his family does.
Going to ring the hospital in a minute.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Rasener
Date: 03 May 08 - 02:14 AM

Rang the hospital and they say he had a comfortable night. If I have got this right, his pottasium levels have come down considerably, which they say is good. I asked if his Kidneys would be alright and they commented that it looked good, and every chance of recovering.
He is more alert.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 May 08 - 04:19 AM

I cannot offer explanations for the individual failings of the NHS.

A lot more tax payers money has gone into it and many people speak well of it. I cannot suggest how it might be made more effective.

Most people inside the party were against the war and Tony Blair and we got rid of him. Brown too has turned out a disaster. It looks as if the Tories will be back and that is our fault.

I would say to those on the "left" when we campaigned with even a slightly more left wing programme people voted for Thatcher. I can see no evidence that they were searching for a genuine "Socialist" alternative. Parties of the left like the SWP and or Respect are a waste of time - nobody votes for them and with the exception of pro=Soviet George they never get elected.

If you are against the Tories you have a choice: do nothing, start your own party or work within one that already exists.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:32 PM

I'm not convinced that our present problems, and those of the Labour Party, are entirely down to lack of money (there's always plenty of money to fight unwinnable foreign wars and to pay 'fat cats' enormous salaries and bonuses - funny that!). A lot of the problems that I've observed have been down to lack of logic, basic common sense, training and humanity.

If you put a lot of rather dumb bureaucrats with an inflated sense of their own importance, an obsession with budgets, and no technical understanding whatsoever in charge of an oil tanker or a jet plane, said vehicle would crash. The same thing is happening to our country. It's because politicians, of all parties, have warped priorities, devious hidden agendas and are almost entirely focussed on the 'problem' of making the rich even richer that we are 'going down the tubes'. The situation became irreversible when New Labour decided to adopt the same priorities as the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:54 PM

Yes, you are probably correct.

But I still think if you are against the Tories you have a choice: do nothing, start your own party or work within one that already exists.

That's it really.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:32 AM

Former deputy prime minister John Prescott said he has no doubt that Gordon Brown has the qualities to be great Prime Minister.


He was on GMTV this morning and said Mr Brown was the right man to deal with Britain's economic problems, he's doing a great job.

He described Tony Blair and Mr Brown as "brilliant" men, without whom Labour would have never had won three general elections. But acknowledging the difficult relationship between the pair at times, he said that Mr Blair did find his then chancellor "prickly" and "frustrating".

"I said if you feel like that, sack him," Mr Prescott said, adding that he also urged Mr Brown: "If you feel like that, resign".

He added: "I have no doubt he is the man to deal with the economic problems we have got, having had 10 years keeping our economy very successful."

What planet is he living on ? The bloody country is in a mess, there is no doubt Labour will get the message in the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Rumncoke
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:36 PM

My neighbour is in real trouble.

She works every hour she can get in geriatric wards at a local hospital, she drives a clapped out old car and I hear her setting off at 6:30am and she doesn't get back until after 7pm.

Because of the rota they use she works more hours one month than the next she is not able to claim benefits even though her income, on average, is low enough.

Since the budget her income has fallen, the tax on her car has gone from I think 65 to 110 pounds, the cost of petrol was already a problem, and she has fallen behind on the rent.

She eats the leftover food from the hospital meals - which is forbidden and she could get sacked for it, but she can't afford to eat. Sometimes she has food at home, but doesn't have gas to cook it nor electricity to keep it fresh, so it goes bad by the time she gets back from work with the keys which control the prepayment meters in credit.

She wants to stay in the house where she grew up, even though the landlord has bodged every job done on it, so, for example, she can't get enough hot water for a bath as the boiler cuts out when the water pressure drops.

She is studying - on her 'days off' so she can get into a higher pay band when she gets more qualifications, and hopes that might help.

If she loses the house, all her possessions, her car and her job, which could very well happen if the landlord throws her out for arrears of rent - how can she ever be compensated?

She was told a little while ago that there would be no more overtime as they had recruited a lot of foreign workers to fill the vacancies.
The foreigners would not do the work, left people sitting in front of their dinners because they would not feed them, let them get dehydrated as they would just put down the cup in front of them to be knocked over - would not do any of the normal jobs associated with geriatric nursing, and most of them left after a few weeks so at least the normal situation has been restored and the overtime is back.

God save us from what the welfare state has turned into.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:06 AM

The Villan, best wishes for a full recovery for your brother. How frightening.

ATB,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Rasener
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:47 AM

Thanks kat

Things have moved on, and he has come out of hospital this weekend and things are looking a lot better. In fairness to the staff at the hospital, they did a wonderful job. At one stage in the hospital he looked a gonner, and then miraculously overnight, he recovered and the change was just amazing.

Just got to cross fingers now that things go well from now on.

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:27 PM

""The country is not on its knees. More people are in work than ever and that's not a bad thing.""

Bear in mind that there is another dimension to consider. There are more people IN work who are below the poverty line than at any time since the inception of the Welfare State.


""If only it was that simple. One of the challenges facing the NHS is the rising number of people who hang around being a bit ill using resources for years ie me and the others who are living longer. The second one is it is a massive and a massively expensive organisation. It has to be managed and their has to be a balance between care and management of care, they are not alternatives. It is still pretty good and spendsless on admin. than the alternatives.""

IMHO the biggest problem for the health service today is in point of fact OVER management.

Between government and hospital, there are too many layers of administration (bureaucracy). With Area health authorities, District health authorities, and Primary Care Trusts, most of the cash fed in at the top never reaches patient care, most of it in fact going to finance armies of pen pushers and bean counters, which have no logical relevance in an age of computer technology.

Ideally, hospitals should be managed by Clinicians, who at least would know that a patient is somebody's family member, and not a number on a flow chart.

If all the money spent on intermediate levels were divided among the hospitals to use in the most patient centred fashion, most of the NHS's problems would vanish overnight. And for God's sake, bring back the MATRON!! That's the way to return to clean, safe hospitals.

Of course, the government which brought this to fruition would be kicked out at the next election, for adding all those accountants and clerks to the unemployment figures. You can't bloody win!

If, during the coming years of Tory government, Labour Party members want to make a difference, I have a suggestion. Start talking to the likes of Tony Benn, or Bob Marshall-Andrews. Their political ideals are not mine, but I respect them as honest socialists, and I know that they would present a much more credible opposition than this bunch of tossers, who have tried to out Tory the Tories for eleven years, and failed miserably even to manage THAT.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Rasener
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:51 AM

Well said Don.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 May 08 - 11:07 AM

Thanks for that Villan.

Your dad's story is the mirror of what happened to my dad four years ago.

At the age of eighty three he went in for a routine hip replacement. It was his second, he having worn out the one he got 20 years earlier, playing golf.

Four months and eleven infections later he came home, but I'm afraid he'll never play golf again, as he can't remember what it is. Sub standard care, and the attitude "Hey, he's 83, what d'you expect" have turned a bright, intelligent, active man into a vegetable.

The surgeons were wonderful, and intensive care superb, but lack of concern on the general ward, and the concept that old people are somehow less worthy of attention has destroyed not just his life but my mother's as well, and both of them are now just waiting to die.

My brother and I made formal complaint to the Primary Care Trust of Hillingdon hospital, backed up by the surgeon who replaced his hip.

Predictably the Trust replied with a letter of "apology"!!


"We are sorry that you feel that the level of care received by your father was inadequate".

Not sorry that it was inadequate, just that WE FELT IT WAS.

And Bastard Brown crows about the amount of money New Labour has put into the NHS.

You say you are angry, Villan. ME TOO, I'm bloody incandescent.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Rasener
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:07 PM

It was my brother Don, but thats OK I reckon my father got MRSA which killed him off 2 years this September. I could have had a coroners report (he rang me and offered me the option), but decided for the sake of my mother, it was better to get the funeral over.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:44 PM

Yeah, sorry about that Villan. I should have rechecked details before posting.

You never hear of politicians getting that kind of treatment in hospital, do you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Rumncoke
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:07 PM

When in hospital my father was delighted to discover that the man in the next bed was a very old friend and for a couple of days they were catching up on what had happened to the other since they last met.

Then the nurse gave them eachother's medication, despite it being pointed out to her that it was not their usual tablets, and my father had a large dose of a drug to stimulate his heart, and his friend got his pre operation medication.

His friend died in the night, my father had a heart attack later, after the operation, which he did not survive.

When my brother went to see our father he learned what had happened, Dad was very upset about his frind's death - he told the sister and was informed 'that never happened'. After Dad died my brother told the doctors what had happened, 'that can't happen' he was told.

Subject: RE: BS: A caring Government??
From: Big Phil
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:14 PM

NEW Labour is no more. Fact.

As for Prescott on Telly telling us how wonderful Bliar and Clown are, it just shows how intelligent he is.

Phil*