Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'

Subject: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'?
From: CharleyR
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 07:51 AM

In England, does 'barn dance' mean the same thing as 'ceilidh' when describing an event? I guess you wouldn't call a festival ceilidh or a ceilidh series event a barn dance, but for things like birthday parties, socials, weddings etc. are the terms used interchangeably or is there a difference? What got me thinking is that I'm writing an FAQ page for our ceilidh band website (aimed at people who want to book a ceilidh band for a party/wedding/fundraiser/whatever) and was wondering whether to include the term barn dance somewhere or if that might lead people to expect something different to a ceilidh.

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Joseph P
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 07:54 AM

In my experience the two are the same, but i'm guessing most 'non folkies' probably wouldnt know to search for 'ceilidh', so include 'Barn Dance' somewhere!

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Dave Hunt
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:00 AM

If you are really talking about English ceilidh, the term Barn Dance is perhaps beter understood by the general public - though for some reason it sometimes means they all turn up in check shirts and cowboy hats!!

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:08 AM

I suppose it's only a barn dance if you leave the door open.

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:08 AM

I overheard a comment made by a local at Warwick while at the ceilidh. She turned to her friend and said 'I like all this Irish dancing.' To me the main difference between a ceilidh and a barn dance is the music - English for the first, American for the second. Sadly the general public in UK are more familiar with the American term than their own traditions.

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:29 AM

"Ceilidh" is a Gaelic word that literally means "visit". In Gaelic speaking areas it often includes a house party with music, song, and storytelling. I suppose at times it may even include a dance in a barn
but "ceilidh" does not mean barn dance. An "English ceilidh" seems a strange term to Gaelic speakers but I guess the word is being absorbed into English with a changed meaning.

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Joseph P
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:39 AM

Well I suppose the use of the word becomes it's meaning. In England the word 'ceilidh' best describes what is referred to by some as 'Barn Dance'.

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:50 AM

In England the word 'ceilidh' best describes what is referred to by some as 'Barn Dance'.

You're absolutely right there, JP - and I would think ceilidh is understood by most UK non-folkies to mean a barn dance.

This was gone over in the legendary 'English Country Dances', Please thread, which is worth a look, but not recommended for the feint of heart...

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: le cheffie
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:52 PM

When I was growing up in the 70's we often went to the village "barn dance" and the band was the such and such dance band. As time progressed I joined a band that played exactly the same kind of tunes in the same kind of venues but we were a ceilidh band. Now a days I would tend to associate a Barn Dance with American Square dancing

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: GUEST,Timo_Tuokkola
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 02:10 PM

Personally, I would associate 'ceilidh' with 'kitchen party' more than 'barn dance'.

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 02:13 PM

'barn dance' ≈ 'ceilidh'

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: GUEST,Chris Brownbridge
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:21 PM

It all depends where you are! Certainly not in Scotland though. Our band caller specialises in Yorkshire Dances, but we call ourselves a "ceilidh band". Yorkshire ceilidh? Well they do say (I do anyway) that a Yorkshireman is a Scotsman with the generosity beaten out, so perhaps there's a racial connection somewhere - possibly from when they came raping and pillaging over the border?


PS: I am a Yorkshireman!

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:28 PM

My experience is very like cheffie's - I faintly remember barn dances in the 60s, and I remember them being replaced in the mid-70s by near-identical events (perhaps with a bit more attention to authenticity, for good or ill) called ceilidhs. The situation's complicated by the echt-Irish overtones 'ceilidh' has acquired more recently; I'm not sure what overtones 'barn dance' has.

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Crane Driver
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:34 PM

In Wales it's also called a 'Twmpath' - pronounced (more or less) like 'toumpath'. The plural is something like Twmpathiau. A 'Twmp' or Tump is a mound or earthwork, often incorporated into a churchyard and often the site of dancing and merrymaking until the various chapels froze all the fun out of life.

I think the identity between ceilidh and barn dance gets closer the more southerly you get. In Scotland (around Edinburgh anyway) 'ceilidh' is more likely to be a fairly informal concert, ie with several short sets from a variety of performers, some of whom may play dance music and get the crowd on their feet, but usually without a caller.

Andrew

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:56 PM

On Mudcat, years ago, I found ceilidh to mean a kitchen party, usually of Irish music, but could just be trad/folk. This year, I read a great book which Micca sent me, about the Green Man Jack in the Green Festival in Hastings in which they call an English barn dance a ceilidh. So, I after talking with Micca, I've concluded it means either/or depending on where you are at!:-)

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 06:01 PM

Best to ask your employers/ punters what they understand by these definitions? I've had folks asking for a 'Country Band' when they were looking for a 'Folk Band from the old country'! Sort that out with your agent at 8.oo on a sat night!

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Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 07:31 PM

The trouble with asking that sort of question here is that you'll get all sorts of replies from people who can't answer your question but who still want to tell you things you haven't asked for but which they do happen (perhaps) to know something about.

You're in Sheffield, I think? Your best bet is to contact other local bands in the area who've been at it for years and who have had to address exactly these issues many times in the past. Email me via Stirrings or SRFAN if you like.

Basically the answer is yes, it does mean the same thing; but some qualification is needed if you don't want half the PTA to turn up in check shirts and cowboy hats, going 'Yee Ha' for no apparent reason every few minutes.

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 02:49 AM

Given that the general response is that the two terms have become synonymous, dose 'barn dance/ceilidh' = 'hoedown' ?

DC

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 03:39 AM

And why do all the women choose Pink cowboy hats covered in sequins?
(And some of the men too....weird?)

I tend to avoid actually playing in barns. Too much dust and hay flying about.
Takes hours to clean the instruments the next day,

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Joseph P
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 03:45 AM

" but some qualification is needed if you don't want half the PTA to turn up in check shirts and cowboy hats, going 'Yee Ha' for no apparent reason every few minutes. "

I played my first Ceilidh, advertised as a Barn Dance a few months ago at the local Primary School, there was a ploughmans supper and all of the PTA were wearing check shirts and cowboy hats, and indeed 'YEE HA' was heard on occasion. Ouch.

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 05:56 AM

I think the term ceilidh was adopted as, in the 1970's, some other entertainment was provided eg a singer or a morris display spot. It also served, in England, to denote that the dancing would not be of the Playford/Country dance style but would be a bit rumbustuous with more time for addmg stepping in. There is also the problem that, again in England, the public has come to identify the term barn-dance with American squares and contras.

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Mo the caller
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:55 AM

I asked this question a while ago and got some helpful replies .
This is my website , I use both terms to describe what I do.

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:47 AM

Around here (West of Ireland) ceilidhing to the older generation still means house-visiting for the purposes of making music and a ceilidh-house is one where musicians were known to frequent and made welcome.
This is part of a long and useful description from Fintan Vallely's invaluable 'Companion to Irish Traditional Music'.
Jim Carroll
ceili. 1. In Northern counties the term denotes a social visit, e.g. 'going on a kaley', kayleying, making one's kayley. 2. Throughout the country it means 'social dance' with what are taken to be indigenous, old-Irish dance forms, these compiled by a process of revival, reconstruction and composition in the years following the Gaelic Revival after 1897. 3. In Scotland the term indicates an on-stage concert or social night involving music, song and dance performance. history. The first ceili was held on 30 October 1897 (Feile Samhain) in Bloomsbury Hall, London. In pursuit of new activities for the London Gaelic League, the Scottish ceili evenings in London were visited. It was decided to use the same term 'ceilithe' for a London Irish social evening based on the structure of the Scottish evenings. The London Gaelic League were already using the term 'seilgí for day-outings.
Based on what was believed to be an old tradition, it was a piper, Tomas O Gearachain, who opened the proceedings at the ceili, followed by songs by Micheal O Suilleabhain and Norma Borthwick, and Scottish and Welsh singers and musicians. M.C. O Fathaigh strictiy controlled admission which was by invitation only. He also censored what songs were permissible; Phil the Fluter's Ball' was unacceptable as being 'stage Irish'. They were very conscious of 'breaking new ground' and the need to create a good image. Dancing consisted of 'Sets, Quadrilles and Waltzes to Irish music'. Those figure dances, now referred to as ceili dances, were not known at the time. Another landmark 'ceili' was the occasion of a performance by Frank Lee's 'Tara' ceili band at the Sarsfield Club, Notting Hill, London on St Patrick's Night, 1918.
The ceili phenomenon spread from London to Ireland and other countries. Subsequently the ceili became commercialised and came to consist more of figure dancing (known as ceili dances) and fewer songs and musical performances. The extreme popularity of the ceili gave rise to the need for specialist groups of musicians which became known as bands. During the 1950s and '60s, ceili bands attracted such crowds of dancers as to fill the largest halls in Ireland, City Hall, Cork and Mansion House, Dublin being packed to capacity weekly.

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: GUEST,Bob L
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 08:22 AM

The ceilidh in the Albert Hall on Proms Folk Day was essentially an Irish-flavour barn dance.

English ceilidh = barn dance on steroids. Or possibly on speed.

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Splott Man
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 08:56 AM

Guess what the Young Farmers call a disco in a barn?

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 10:56 AM

In Splott???

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 11:28 AM

A plow share?:-)

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Splott Man
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 11:55 AM

Well there was Upper Splott Farm (16th century) and Lower Splott Farm (18th century), but that's a different thread.

I know from experience that calling it a barn dance in some areas of Britain, people come expecting a disco.

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Marje
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:11 PM

Maybe if the event was advertised as an "English Barn Dance", this would dispel any idea that it's American, and also suggest that it was traditional (ie not disco).

For a website, I agree it would be useful to include "Ceilidh" as well, but as there are alternative spellings (not to mention lots of wrong spellings), it wouldn't be sensible to rely on it, especially for people searching via Google etc.

Oh, and DON'T call it a hoe-down, or you will definitely get the "Yee-hahs" and the cowboy hats.

Marje

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:28 PM

But now that discos are referred to as nightclubs or just clubs, what are the establishments called that used to be nightclubs?

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: Tootler
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:07 PM

I first came across the term ceilidh when I was living in the far North of Scotland. It was pretty much as Jim Carroll described, an evening's entertainment with singing, piping and other music, dialect recitations (It was an English Speaking area) etc. There was no general dancing but there was some display dancing by individuals or small groups. In effect it was the local community entertaining itself with people getting up on stage and doing their "party piece". A friend of my who was elsewhere in Scotland at the same time said his experience was of sitting round the room and everyone taking a turn doing some performance - a bit like a singaround. Again dancing was not a major feature, it was mostly singing and instrumental music.

I then came across the term in England 20 years later and was confused because what I saw was a social dance. In fact it was about the time I moved to Teesside and at that time similar events were as likely to be called "Barn Dances" and on a number of occasions ones I went to were actually held in barns.

Over the subsequent years, the term "ceilidh" seems to have taken over from "barn dance" to describe a social dance based on English Traditional dance forms.

I got this from the home page of forum devoted to "English Ceilidh": http://www.compulink.co.uk/~net-services/ec/

"English Ceilidh" is a dance type derived from traditional English dance, with emphasis on stepping and style rather than complexity. It is always danced rather than walked and should be be distinguished from "Social Dances", "Playford" and "Dancers Dances" where complexity of figure is more important than the step.

Another website that describes the English version is: http://www.webfeet.org/eceilidh/Overview.html

A website that seems to describe the Scottish meaning of the term is: www.siliconglen.com/Scotland/10_2.html. Unfortunately I could not persuade it to load. The server seems to be down at the moment.

Geoff

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:23 PM

FWIW.
The most recent Gaeilge-English dictionary (i.e. Irish Gaelic) gives three meanings to céilí

1. Friendly call, visit
2. Social evening
3. Irish dancing session

Early dictionaries do not have the third sense which, as Jim Carroll notes from Fintan Valleley, seems to have evolved in London.

Regards

Subject: RE: Does 'barn dance' = 'ceilidh'
From: GUEST,Wolfhound person
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 03:40 AM

In Northumberland (particularly the north half of the county), ceilidh = dance + caller (and is considered non-traditional by a decreasing number of locals). Dance means same local dances, but without caller - you're expected to know the dances.
Barn dance is used rarely, but interchangeably with either (more or less confusingly).

Country dance means the RSCDS variety, usually to records, and occurs in clubs.
There are one or two places where this could mean EFDSS country dancing - the polite variety I remember from my childhood - but not Playford. I don't think I've encountered Playford in Northumberland.

Paws