RE: have the American audiences gone?

Subject: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:42 PM

There is another thread about "where have the audiences gone" that turned into yet another free-for all about the UK "club" scene.

I would love to discuss what is happening in North America - and it would be great to have input from all Mudcatters no matter where they are, but hopefully we can stay on topic.

Tell us about where you are from and what the "folk" scene is like in your neck of the woods. Is it traditional, revival or contemporary?    Venues, festivals, house concerts, etc?   Age groups?   Dance events?

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:47 PM

Never did get any American audiences around here!

Actually that's not true...we have one who is an American ex-pat....she's nearly naturalised Yorkshire now though! (and very welcome she is too as she likes banjos).

No more from me on this, just couldn't resist!

I'll get me Union Jack westcot.....

Paul

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:08 PM

Good idea Ron. As a performer, primarily in the US & Canada I've been puzzled by turnout questions for years. For no rhyme or reason, we have played to packed folklore society sized venues one night, followed by an audience of four at a house concert on the same trip. I've figured that people are working more hours and have less leisure time these days than they did in the '80's when we started playing out a lot. I think they are pickier about how they spend their leisure time. When I'm not gigging myself, I do find it easier to stay home myself, rather than go see someone else (I do fight that urge as much as possible, as I figure that if I want someone to make an effort to see me, I should make an effort to see other performers).

You can also say it's the aging of the folk audience. I know we've gone over well with younger audiences when they see us. But since we perform a primarily traditional set, many places think their audiences won't go for what we do. And I can see people my age not wanting to spend time/money seeing the younger "alt/folk" (what does that mean anyway?) kind of acts. I think it gets back to how much spare time we have and how much energy we have left after getting home from our day jobs.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:19 PM

Ron, there seems to be the view that folk as we once knew it is not relevant now.
There is an old time music crowd, a singer/songwriter crowd and a generalized
approach to music that encompasses popular music from earlier times.

The problem as I see it is that the practitioners of folk music today don't know too
much about it from a historical perspective. How the revival came out of the left-wing
movement and how the interest in traditional blues and old-time came from the Lib.
of Congress and Folkways records (Harry Smith). Most people today don't care about
traditional American material unless they are in a clique. There are small pockets of
people who are interested in the Appalachian folk. There are those who are into
Irish music and "chunes". These seem to be small enough so that it doesn't touch
the rest of the music listening public. There is no way of presenting this program
that informs people of what they are listening to. No one is taking the initiative to
present this music in a context that an audience could understand it. There is an
active "country dance" scene that has contra and square musicians. The "group" aspect
of the "Mighty Wind" folk pop revival has some hangers-on but mostly it's a dinosaur.
Except for an occasional PBS fundraiser.

It happened some time ago when folklorists and academicians turned their backs on
an audience by claiming some sort of high ground and not admitting a crossover
from the pop revivalists and the traditional informants. This was a HUGE mistake.
At one time Pete Seeger and Joan Baez could have been a catalyst for bringing more
traditional performers to the forefront. (DK Wilgus wouldn't allow Joan to play at
a UCLA folk festival in the Seventies. Not "trad" enough.)

Music entrepeneurs are more concerned with putting the butts in the seats at
concerts they can sell. "Folk" is out.

Solution: For singer/songwriters, o.t musicians, Irish etc. to do the homework and
explain to the public what "folk" is historically and how the various forms of music relate. To put folk music into context by embracing the various definitions and showing how they relate. To widen the scope of performance at festivals and bring in those who can
present these varied forms of material so that they make sense to an uninitiated public.

I live in an area that has been traditionally alive with folk music but there is no connect
between the interest patterns of the musical groups (some of whom are very good) here in the South.

American audiences have been divided just like our country.

Pete Seeger's concept of a "Hootenanny" was that all kinds of music be represented
with the goal of making the audience a part of the show through participation. Pete
said that it should include jazz musicians, all kinds of songwriters, traditional artists,
even classical artists (think Robeson) as long as what they were doing was in some
context of understanding. That kind of "Hootenanny" never really got off the ground.
Pete would have been the one to lead it but he had other things to do.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:26 PM

Good points, Frank. Out in the Chicago 'burbs there's a concert audience and a dance audience and very little crossover. The Chicago Irish community may come out for Irish concerts, but not go to other folk events. I was raised on WFMT's midnight special and love all of it.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:53 PM

Excellent points Phil and Frank!

Frank - I think artists are starting to "get" the idea of doing their homework. For many years, "Folk" was a four letter word, but I am seeing a number of artists who are exploring the roots and explaining to their audience where the music evolved from. I'm also noticing that in recent years, artists are dipping into the traditional songbag and finding songs that show the relevance.

In hopes of continuing to stimulate this conversation, I would like to share my thoughts on the "folk scene", as I see it, here in Northern New Jersey. The area is NYC's bedroom, and as such, the music seems to be a blend of urban and rural.   There are a number of venues in the area, and I am the president of one - The Hurdy Gurdy Folk Music Club.   

The Hurdy Gurdy has been in existence since 1981 and it was started to give local residents an opportunity to experience concerts similar to those being produced by the Folk Project with the Minstrel Show in Central NJ.   The Hurdy Gurdy audience has been loyal and the tastes have been folk revival era with a touch of contemporary.   Artists like Tommy Makem, Christine Lavin, and Cherish the Ladies were popular performers.   Traditional music would not draw well for us.   We presented Mike Seeger to an audience of about 60 people and other traditional performers would also draw small audiences - and we would lose money.    I've tried to diversify the lineup, brining in some newer names that would draw crowds to help us offset the losses when we try to bring traditional music to the audience.

Other venues in the area focus primarily on contemporary singer-songwriters, and from what I've seen, they are drawing well. Of special note is Sanctuary Concert, although they are a bit further south.

There is a marvelous organization called Strings & Sings as well as some members of the late Lil Appel's weekly sings who get together monthly to sing in each others homes.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:55 PM

Frank's comments make a lot of sense , and its a stuation that never really happened in UK , despite the efforts of a very few people over here to separate Traditional material from the rest of music !
This means that for the MOST part , in UK ,'Folk' covers Singer / songwriter , Traditional , American old Timey , and even Skiffle and Blues !

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Stewart
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:24 PM

Ron,thanks for starting this new thread - hopefully it will stay on track. But one never knows. I gave up on the one I started, after only a few US responses and that deluge of UK club free-for-all.

Here in Seattle we have a large number of folk musicians, although the singer-songwriters predominate (that's probably true most everywhere). There are several organizations that support this music.

The Seattle Folklore Society is probably the predominant one. It was founded in 1966 mainly to bring in the "source musicians" from outside the area - bluegrass and other players from Appalachia and Delta blues players. It spawned the Northwest Folklife Festival in the early 1970s, but then evolved into a booking agency and venue for mostly out-of-town singer songwriters. (here is a 2004 response from Michael Cooney to me about that: "The last time I tried to get a gig with the Seattle 'Folklore' Society, the woman doing the booking couldn't grasp the concept of someone singing songs they didn't write. So much for 'folklore'").   

A much earlier folklore society, The Pacific Northwest Folklore Society, was founded at the beginning of the Seattle folk music revival in 1953. It fell prey to the Red Scare of the '50s, but two founding members, Don Firth and Bob Nelson, and I revived it last year. That was because I was not much interested in what the SFS brought to town. They completely ignored Jeff Warner (could you imagine any better folklorist?), so I hosted a house concert for him sponsored by the Pacific NW Folklore Society. Our aim is to feature the more traditional folk music by local musicians and to preserve the folklore and folk songs of the Pacific Northwest.

And then there is Victory Music "a non-profit organization founded in 1969 to support local acoustic, jazz, blues and folk music." It supports four open mics in the Puget Sound area and publishes a monthly acoustic music magazine - Victory Review. It is largely populated by singer-songwriters, but it runs some of the best local open mics.

The SFS has the largest following and usually gets 60-100 people out to its weekly concerts. Our PNWFS had a series of Sunday afternoon concerts this summer at the Everett Public Library, where we had anywhere from 80 to 35 people in attendance. We're also doing some monthly "coffeehouse concerts" in a small Seattle cafe, where attendance has varied from 15 to 35 (35 is almost a full house for that venue).

Then I run a monthly concert series for a local N. Seattle community organization - The Haller Lake Arts Council . This isn't strictly folk music, but our aim is to bring local musicians and artists together with the community. We have a gem of a hall that will seat a max of 150, but attendance has ranged from a high of 65 down to a more usual 30 or so. One of the problems is that we're not well known (our 3rd season begins in Sept.) and the immediate community is not very supportive. We've had some great programs, the few attending have been quite enthusiastic, but it is a struggle to get people to come.

A lot of my musician friends perform in little coffeehouses, pubs, etc., but that scene is pretty dismal. One Musician's Showcase in a bar attracts some good local talent, but only the few musicians performing are actually listening (or trying to), while the other bar partons create a noisy drunken scene. I've given up trying to perform there. In the coffeehouses you end up performing to three people glued to their laptop computers (one is plugged into his iPod) and maybe two other friends. I tried that (see my post in the other thread I started), but it turns out to be more of a rehearsal than performance. But a lot of my friends keep doing that.

The open mics are a mixed thing. Our weekly N. Seattle open mic draws 20-25 musicians each week (one song each). But the audience is largely the other musicians, with only a few non-musicians. The quality varies from very good to not-so-good and occasionally very bad (but then it's an 'open mic'). But it's been a good training ground for many local musicians.

Well, that's the local scene. The audiences seem to be mostly other musicians, and there's so many things going on that the few can't support them all. My biggest question is how to get other people to come out. They are probably not aware of the local talent, that there are local folks who actually perform music and some of it can be quite good. They will come out to hear big-name out-of-town performers in huge crowded venues at outrageous prices because that's what the local press and commercial music interests tells them they should - it's got to be good!

I'll stop here and comment more later on.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:59 PM

Things are pretty good here in Albuquerque - considering that we are hardly the size of New York or Seattle. There are a couple of people/groups running what amounts to house concerts, although they may be in other than living-room venues, at least one church basement-type coffee house with a good mix of performers, two local entrepreneurs (that I know of) bringing in groups like Danu, 2 summer concert series run by the city, a University-based concert series, a weekly Irish jam, and so forth. I can't think that I've been to anything that wasn't a packed house.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Stewart
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:20 PM

Art, I think small towns may have the best audiences.
Take for example Skamokawa, a town of 519 (latest count) on the Columbia River in SW Washington State, Wahkiakum County (state's smallest county). They support the Wahkiakum Acoustic Guitar Society of at least a dozen or more active members. I've played a house concert there at a B&B (The Inn at Lucky Mud, run by a couple of folk musicians) with 20-30 local people in attendance, and a potluck and great jamming afterwards. It's a real community, and I guess not much else to do in that rural area.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 06:01 PM

Take from this story what you will--


We used to play live Intl folkdance music every month in the auditorium of an old school turned into an alternative art center in a big city-we we located there because there had been two active, weekly dance groups in that neighborhood for many years, though both had declining attendance.

Our attendence ran between 20 and 40, which spiked higher a couple times when we touring performers as guests.

One day, we got booking for an Int'l dance thing in a suburban shopping mall--we almost didn't do it-but when we played, there were   a hundred thirty or more dancing--more than had even come to our monthly gig--

They were all people we knew, but who'd moved out to the burbs over the years, and never went into town anymore.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:01 AM

That's true, M. Ted. People, even before higher gas prices, were not willing to drive very far to see music. They would go further for an event, like a festival. The head of the fox valley folklore society humorously said that the new folk contracts for shows will read "a buck a song and gas money." Figuring costs sometimes, that's how it shapes up.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:46 AM

Folkies turned Burbinnites

Barry

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:48 AM

There is an odd scene going on around here. There is a weird meshing of folk and rock going on and the bands are all in thier 20's and 30's. It is not like other Folk Rock type bands that I have heard. It is by far more traditional and modal. It has a heavy appalachian feel (go figure this is Ky lol) and it is really catching on. Bands like Bawn in the Mash are very traditional but with a rock edge to them. They throw in bits of swing and jug band type material and the crowds are getting huge. Bonepony goes more for the rock side but are still roots/traditional/bluegrass. The Legendary Shack Shakers are about the strangest locally and they are mixing punk/rockibilly/folk/religious themes they refer to them as southern gothic. The crowds are getting very large for these type of bands with no airplay or advertisement. Traditional Festivals like the Pennington Folk Festival and The Appalachian Uprising are getting larger and larger too. It is almost like people in thier 20's and 30's are finally discovering roots music in thier own way. I am digging it. Other acoustic music shows around here are pretty bare. I have played some venues that the only people there were the employees and the looked like they were ready to quit. In Nashville Tennesse they are having a bluegrass jam every Monday night at Cafe Coco. A buddy of mine hosts it and says it is going great. I haven't made it to one yet but I am going pretty soon. So around here it has been going good overall.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:49 AM

One thing I've noticed, there are really folkie neighborhoods, folkie villages and folkie towns. They are never particularly big places, even in the big cities, and folkies tend dissipate and regroup periodically, but they are there.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:19 AM

Something I think is important also for songwriters to do in their sets is to include a 'trad' or 'trad tradition' song or two that fit within the set's parameters. It exposes the songs to an audience that may have little history with the genre.

Canadian students are infinitely more interested in Macdonald's
bar tabs than his speeches. But eventually they read his speeches even if only to find out why he drank so much. Here's Macdonald with the whole of the NWMP out looking for Riel and Macdonald gives him $50 to get out of Canada because frankly Riel's arrest would have caused problems Macdonald either didn't want to deal with or couldn't deal with. Why, just his shenannigans with the creation of the CPR are worth the trip to find out, because from that we got this nation.

So I mention his bar bills. And do a song now and then that introduces people to aspects of history with which they may not be familiar. Make it good and interesting and they'll tell their friends.

Of course, if trad is already your bag, then introducing newer songs that 'fit' the tradition certainly help convey the notion that music can be both static and growing at the same time.

And too, people need to know performers are listening to audiences. Audiences are filled with people who go to venues looking for something good. It's possible to give them something good and stretch the boundaries simultaneously. You will lose those who come with a narrow-minded view of what good means: "It's not the type of music I listen to." But with them you're often hooped before ya start, so don't worry about it.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:11 AM

Jayto - the groups you are mentioning sound very interesting. It seems like a local style from your area. You mention that the groups are drawing large crowds. Do these crowds consist of younger audience members? Are traditional based folkies accepting the new "sounds"?

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:37 AM

Yes the crowds are normally 21 (have to be to get in to most of the clubs) up to mid 30' early 40's. What has surprised me is they all seem to have a pretty deep knowledge of folk music. Of course you have some that are just there because they think it's the cool thing to do. You will always have that but there is a big interest. Another thing that I think is really cool is how much they get into it. I saw Bawn in the Mash play down in Buchannan Tennessee a few weeks ago and the crowd was WILD. They were pushing all the tables aside and dancing and jumping and yelling. It is not a real sit down and listen type of event. Bawn is driven by the fiddle and mandolin. The fiddle player will play mandolin too resulting in dueling mandolins.
You can find them on myspace but I have to admit all of them have failed to capture the live energy. I think they are good on the recordings but live OMG high energy very high energy.

Here is a short list if you want to check them out on myspace

Bawn in the Mash: Bluegrass/Folk/Jam band Rock mixture

Bonepony: Bluegrass/Jam band type rock mix. Bonepony's Fiddle player quit and they have restructured the band and sound. I haven't really heard them since this happened. Tramp was an insane live fiddler.

The Legendary Shack Shakers : Punk/Folk/ReligiousThemes/Rockibilly/Blues
These guys are unique. They are the only ones so far to have international success and they have had the highest degree of National success so far out of these bands. The whole band originally were from Paducah Kentucky (same town as Bawn in the Mash, country band Exile, Carl Perkins was from right outside Paducah across the Tn border) but now only the lead singer Col. JD Wilkes is from there. They are more on the rock side. They classify them as southern gothic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgphO4JJIrw
That is one of thier videos off of youtube. Col. JD also a filmmaker I think he made that video. He has a new fim out that has won alot of indy awards called Seven Signs. Alot of this documentary was filmed right around here. He is an interesting guy. He has his Masters in performing arts.
Want anymore info let me know

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:57 AM

Oh I forgot to answer the second half of your question. Some tradtitional "Folkies" are some are not. Bawn is gettin acceptance because they can be as traditional as anybody. They are all top notch musicians. Bonepony is as well because they are (or were) very traditionally based. Shack Shakers uhm lol they are harder for the trads to grasp. If they are jamming traditional then yes but they are all about some rebellion and energy. Col. JD the lead singer was a staple at most folk festivals until his band took off. Now he is on the road all the time and hardly ever comes around. He is an incredible harmonica player and a great writer.
For some reason this area has become a breeding ground for hippies. I don't mean that term bad at all. You have an extreme counter culture here. People think hicks and hillbillies alot of times when they think of Kentucky but we have a huge population of hippies.They are a big part of the acoutsic music scene. There are all kinds of non-advertised music festivals and clubs around here. Also Louisville and Lexington Kentucky are a huge part of the acoustic music scene. New Grass revival was from Lexington and the scene continued to evolve from there and is now unreal. Louisville has a big Punk scene and all this stuff has meshed jam band/punk/bluegrss/folk and there is some really cool things coming out of it. Acoustically there is something for everyone around here right now. If you want tradtitional or very cutting edge it's not hard to find. The people for the most part are open minded good music is good music. The main thing is they are wanting it acoustic or acoustic based.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: DebC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:04 PM

Thanks for starting this, Ron. Frank (I am a fan!!) and my good friend, Phil have brought up some valid points.

I have always wanted to see the unification on folk. We ARE quite divided and I'm not sure how this problem gets solved.

And I am guilty of "staying home" as much as the next guy. I travel so darn much that when I am home, I just want to be at home.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:20 PM

As Jayto points, out, the people who go out in droves to party are young people. In the good old days of folk, when hundreds of people were hanging from the rafters, those who did it were mostly in their teens or twenties.

If there is a revival, it will not be among the forty and fifty year olds. It will be among the teens and twenties.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:30 PM

I am 35 but c'mon M.Ted the music makes and keeps us young. When you hear it doesn't it take you back to your teens and twenties? There was a rock song in the 1980's that had a line "as long as I have Rock-n-Roll I'm forever young." I feel that way now. When I hear Doc Watson for instance I dont hear an old man hitting a guitar. I hear a man in his prime eternally young. Music makes celebrate life and people. The good and bad times are all rolled into one and released releasing us from the binds of age, location, world events, life events, whatever. That is why it is so special. On here you have people of all ages and backgrounds talking about something we all love. The common denominator is not just songs it is being human. That is what roots music is all about I feel. Age, Ethnicity, national origin, all the labels put on a person by society means nothing. This is truly what it is about a love for music and the stories of being human hidden in lyrics.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:03 PM

Juneau, Alaska, is a smallish town- about 3,1000 - but as I've said before, it supports a great many of the arts. That includes music, of course.

John Prine will do a concert on August 16th- and it is long since sold out. The 'premium' seats - the first six rows - sold out within the first hour, at $48 a pop.

Gordon Bok will be here in September.

Tommy Sands will be here in October.

In between are local concerts.

Buddy Tabor will do a concert in late August.

On September 5 we'll have the third 4-hour concert in a theatre on top of the mountain, reachable by tram. Last year the house was happy that we drew more than 200 for the event. This year I think the lineup is even stronger.(I get to do the booking, which is great fun.)

There will be 10 acts of 20 minutes each, ranging from blues to bluegrass, from a diva backed by brass and bass to folksy stuff put on by singles and duets - oh, and also a classical guitar set.

These are not paid gigs but the house does issue a premium tram pass for the next season for each performer, which, if they use it 10 times the next year adds up to $250 worth for each; if they take a guest along it comes out to $500. That ain't too shabby.


The Zahasky family will do a concert on October 4th, the Gold Street Music series begins the same month- and that begins the winter season which is a busy time.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:18 PM

John Prine is a pretty steady fixture on the music scene around here. He used to come here when he was a kid and spend the summer with his grandparents over in Muhlenburg county. I hope I am not rambling here but this thread has got me to thinking about how folk jumped to be as popular as it is. Feel free to tell me to shut up lol

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:32 PM

The young people make it a party-Jayto--I've got house payments, a lawn to mow, and kids to raise--I love the music, maybe more than ever, because over the years, I've gotten to know it a lot better, but most of the time, I am compelled to leave the partying to the young people--

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:34 PM

I understand but the same emotion taht drives them still drives us all. Maybe drives us a little less energeticlly lol

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:48 PM

Oh another band to check out that is local is Rev.Peyton's Big Damn Band. They are some of my girlfriends kin folk. They are making a pretty big splash and touring nationally now (US). They are from southern Indiana and are more delta blues/ragtime mix alot of energy and some good songs. They do a mix of originals and traditional with the Rev.Peyton belting out the lead vocals (not a religious band don't let the Rev. moniker decieve you lol).

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:29 PM

I 'think' the Folklore Society of Greater Washington is the largest...not withstanding those good folks in greater Washington state...*grin*
This may be partly because we have the Library of Congress folk resources here, many forms of ethnic music from the varied international communities, as well as having had several long-standing folk related radio programs to keep the 'folk' informed and entertained. (Mary Cliff for general folk, Dick Spottswood for, as he calls it "Obsolete Music, LOTS of Bluegrass...and various of the syndicated porgrams.

FSGW has a couple thousand members and many regular events, including a 2 day festival with 6 stages and a dance hall...about June 1, and a one day Mini-Festival in Feb....then there is another one day festival in Sept. in Takoma Park which we do not run, but which attracts most of the same people.

This has been going on since the 60s, which is why the now international Getaway ended up doing so well for over 40 years.

I occasionally have house concerts in my basement, and have had 40+ folks at several. (in the link above, you can see that Elizabeth LaPrelle will be in my basement in September)

Although there has been a decline in the 'critical mass' of hard-core 'folkies' in the last 10-15 years due to basic folk-entropy, you can find something of interest almost ANY night.

I can count 10 or more local folks who have a good repertoire of ballads.(including at least 3 who have sets of the full Bronson)

We do ok here.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:48 PM

Yeah man I love Washington state. I spent alot of time out there in the early 90's. Seattle,Bellingham,Everson, and Lynden. I love it out there good people, good music, Beautiful landscapes ... uh wanna trade places lol

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:54 PM

M.Ted makes a great point about "young" people creating the scene. I cannot think of a single cultural movement that has not been developed by an older generation. Whether it is art, literature, film or music - it is driven by a young audience and young performers. That is not to say that older folks do not particpate, but the driving force will always be youth.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:18 PM

I agree Ron I just hope that nobody ever let's age keep them from embracing a scene. Music is for everybody by everybody and the corporate mentality today in alot of music in exclusionary and hinders the progression of the art form. I have always viewed Folk music as rebellion. It was people voicing thier feelings when they would not be heard any other way. So youth are going to bring something to the table with it. Times are different than they were 100 yrs ago so subject matter and presentation will also be different. I think the older generations can show them how to express themselves musically even thought the message may be totally different. I learned from alot of old men (the guitar) but took it and made my own voice. The emotions remain the same only the presentation changes. That is my point I want to see all generations get involved with it. Folk doesn't need to be exclusionary like modern country and rock. It is not corporate music for the masses it is people music for people.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:29 PM

Rev. Peyton rocks! And the more you listen, the more you like it! Bawn in the Mash's version of "Sail Away, Ladies" is really great--the banjo especially gets me--he gives that old John Hartford feel to the song--The Legendary Shack Shakers are the missing link between punk and snake handling music, and, at least from me, that's a high compliment.

Thanks for posting this stuff, Jayto, and wasting another perfectly good afternoon;-)

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:31 PM

No problem my pleasure. I am playing with my 2 yr old at the city park right now so the day's not wasted at all lol.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:36 PM

"I agree Ron I just hope that nobody ever let's age keep them from embracing a scene."

I'm with you on that. Unfortunately, I do see SOME factionalization based on age. The club I am now president of, the Hurdy Gurdy, HAD a reputation for catering to an older audience. I'm afraid that kept some people away.   Likewise, when we book an "unknown" young performer, it tends to keep some of the older crowd away.

Another great example was looking at audiences at a couple of festivals I went to this summer. Old Songs had a somewhat older audience, as did Mystic, with families as well.   Falcon Ridge was a much younger audience.   This weekend I am going to Philly, which seems to have a nice mix of generations.

One of the events I noticed at both Old Songs and Falcon Ridge was the fact that ALL generations participated in dance. I think the "party" atmosphere of a dance really says something about the participation.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:47 PM

I have played for a wide variance of performers. Most folk/rock and Alt.Country. I did encounter that alot. I formed a band yrs ago with a friend of mine Chris Knight. He is a singer songwriter if you haven't heard him you should check him out. He has a huge following internationally now but then we were just 2 guys from a small town playing acoustic guitars. The old crowd didn't want us they said we were too dark and "rock". That is the be all end all in thier eyes if you were called rock you were blacklisted lol. The younger crowd didn't dig it because we were to folk. We kept plugging away and finally got signed by Decca Records. Now the crowds merge. Patti Griffin appealed to a younger crowd but still had to fight for acceptance. Hank Williams 3 had all kinds of conflicts with crowds so did Fred Eaglesmith. I backed all of these people and more and really have 1st hand experience in battling crowds. They do seem to be merging though on some of this new stuff. You also have to fight that "My granddad listens to this." Type of thought and inversly "I'm acting like a kid playing this stuff." ugh I hear you man it just makes you want to smack them and say music knows no age just create good music lol.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:11 PM

Young folks make the music happen, and generate the energy and excitement. At least chronologically, very few of us in here are young folks. I'm the kid in my gospel quartet, at 73. Most of us got in to folk music when we were young, could stay up all night and didn't have mortgage payments and kids to raise. We are the young folks of the 60's, all growed up. And out. :-)

Why can't young folks be more like us?

I wrote a song once with the lines:

"You know you're getting old when you start to say
I don't know what's the matter with the kids these days"

Jerry-atric

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:18 PM

"Why can't young folks be more like us?"

Because you cannot deny them the opportunity to discover their own muse and meet their own needs. If they are lucky, they will get to view the world from the same vantage point that you share now!   It is a beautiful trip!

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:43 PM

That was meant to be tongue in cheek, Ron. :-) Let's hope they can be a whole lot better than us.

Jerry

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM

I know Jerry! :)

I think we did pretty well, and I am confident that they will too - especially with guidance from people like you!

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:59 PM

I've said it before: If I had to pick the proper time to get a malady that took my picking abilities from me, there would be no more apropos time than these aesthetic times we are in. So be it. I will always enjoy listening to most of the music I've saved over the years in my own private collections. But I get a CD with every issue of Sing Out magazine that arrives in the mail. Today I sent that CD on to old friend Fritz Schuler --as I do after listening to all of those. Today I wrote a note to him saying that if he liked one tenth of the songs on it, then he would like 10% more than I enjoyed.

The times they are a-changing...

Art

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:14 PM

Amen, Art! ...and one of the ways times are changing is that more & more the songs are being sung AT us, rather than learned & shared. *I* am fortunate to have sung along WITH you and learned songs FROM you...to be sung just to myself sometimes.

One of the places 'audiences' have gone is those places where you must remain an audience ...and folks get the idea that it is an either/or situation where you are either a practiced performer or part OF an audience.

"And it was not so when Bess did reign,
And this old hat was new."

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:24 PM

"The times they are a-changing..."


I would add:

To everything -
there is a season -
And a time for every purpose under heaven

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:25 PM

I feel that our job as a musician/singer just performer in general is to spur emotions. Be it good emotions or bad you should spur some kind of emotion. We need to remember that music is an art form. A painting that doesnt' spur emotion is just wallpaper. Music that doesn't spur emotion is just racket. I have played venues where people have loved me and I have played venues where people hated me. Love and Hate that is basic emotion so I did my job. I failed to do my job though where people didn't pay any attention and ignored me. If you all disagree with me please let me know. I just feel that with music, notes are the paint on the pallet but emotion is the brush. I would love to hear someone elses view of this.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:40 PM

I'm with you, jayto. Music, like any art form requires making a connection between the viewer/listener and the art. And even the greatest music or visual art can not make a connection with everyone.

Years ago, when I was performing more regularly, if someone who was running a coffee house told me that they didn't want to book me, because they thought that I wasn't a good fit for their audience, I always thanked them. Better to find out in advance, than when you're up on stage... :-)

Why aren't kids interested in songs about mules, anymore? When I was a kid, I grew up in farm country, and while no one I knew rode a mule to town on Saturday night, most of my uncles were farmers, and I could connect with their life, and the songs that reflected it.

And I wrote:

   "Old Uncle Jim he said, said to his son, he said
    Wake up Howard 'cause it's almost dawn
    The snow drifts have covered up the old hay wagon
    And we'll have to dig our way out to the barn
    The cows will all be waiting for the old milk pail
    And it won't be long before the rooster crows
    So we better hop to it, 'cause there's no one else to do it
    And the sky is turning cloudy, and it looks like snow"

                  Old Uncle Jim

I could understand the Spring of '65, and the old logging songs. I camped out at a logging camp in Canada for a week, and ignorantly danced across the moving logs, never sensing the danger involved. The Jam at Gerry's Rock seemed relevant to me. Try singing those songs to kids who have grown up on hip hop, and you might as well sing something in Chinese. It's not that the songs are not as good as they used to be, or that kids today are any less than we were at their age.

The connection is gone.

Jerry

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:19 PM

Hey another guy to check out is a friend of mine from Martin Tennessee. Jason Webb is his name he has several project bands going. One is called Old Haul I am much more fond of his solo stuff. He is a singer/songwriter and multi-instrumentalist. On top of it all he is a really good guy. I met him in a parking lot in Buchannan Tennessee and before I knew it Jason, my brother Joey, and myself were wrapped up in a jam session. Of course we all had guitars and mandolins at the ready lol always looking for a jam. Jason is pretty good and another fixture on the local scene. You can check him out on myspace.

www.myspace.com/jwmusic.com
If I think of some others that are pretty cool I will post it. Anybody ya'll think I should check out please let me know.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:23 PM

Oh yeah Jamie Barnes from Louisville Kentucky

www.myspace.com/jamiebarnes

He is pretty cool as well.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:06 AM

"Why aren't kids interested in songs about mules, anymore? When I was a kid, I grew up in farm country, and while no one I knew rode a mule to town on Saturday night, most of my uncles were farmers, and I could connect with their life, and the songs that reflected it."


Jerry, I think you hit on something very important. As you mentioned, you had a connection to the songs and could trace a thread.   I think during the folk revival, many people had similar connections, OR they were looking for a connection to a different era as the world was rapidly changing. There were so many reasons, but I think that, for the generations that came of age during the 50's and 60's, folk music made a connection.

With all the changes that have occured since then, new generations require a different type of music. Art mentioned that the current CD that came with Sing Out! did not appeal to his tastes, but I would hazard a guess that to younger audiences the music does have considerable appeal.

This also started me thinking about the very premise of "audience". A big part of the folk revival was focused on the fact that the music allowed individuals to make their own entertainment. It was really the commercial intervention of the folk revival that created the "audience" portion - shifting the focus from participatory to spectator.

I know that people are still making their own music, but are they doing in the same style and for the same reasons that made it possible 50 years ago?

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:18 AM

Hey, Ron:

Kids are certainly making music today, but mostly not in the same style. It all gets back to connection. In the 60's, folk singers and singer/songwriters were making music that connected to their audience at that time. It was the Vietnam War era, and protests songs dominated the songwriting. Even older traditional songs like Penny's Farm and John Johanna made a connection, because they were about working class folks being taken advantage of by the "system" of those times. How many protest songs are being written today? I'm sure that there are plenty, but they're mostly heard in small grouyps of people who are social activists. None are making it to MTV.

Kids today are making music that connects with their audience. And imitating what they hear on the radio and see on TV. You write and sing what you know, and if you want an audience, you'd better be sure that the music you make connects with them or you'll lose them.

The other difference today is that the Beat is the thing. Most of the music is so bass-heavy that it makes the fenders of your car rattle if you play it. Music since the disco era has been for dancing, mostly. Ever tried boogeying to Lord Randall?

Jerry

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:28 AM

"Ever tried boogeying to Lord Randall? "

I haven't, but I am sure that there is someone who tried!   What I am seeing is that artists are interpreting traditional songs once again, but in a style that meets their own requirements. Look at groups like Crooked Still or the Mammals, or artists like Bethany Yarrow.

I think that dance connection is very important, after all a great portion of folk music was used for social events and dances as well. It makes sense that the tradition would carry on to contemporary styles utilizing contemporary technology.

There are a LOT of protest songs being written today, but you are right - they are not making it to MTV - simply because MTV rarely plays music anymore! They shifted their focus too.

Let's not forget that during the folk revival, music of the protest music was not heard on the radio either. Pop music eventually incorporated protest themes, but I would argue there is plenty in contemporary music as well. Madonna, the Dixie Chicks, Pink, Lenny Kravitz and many others have recorded and even received airplay. If you look at rap, arguably folk music, there is plenty of protest going on. It might not resemble what we consider to be protest songs, but you can trace the roots.   I think that is one of the rewards of the folk revival - it greatly influenced pop music.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: johnross
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM

Most "consumers" of folk music are unlikely to invest time and money on performers they don't already know about. So it's necessary to create some kind of advance exposure before a performance. This might include a feature story in the local newspaper (not just a tiny listing buried among dozens of others), radio, or previous local gigs.

The early Newport and Philadelphia Folk Festivals did a great job of creating audiences for traditional performers -- the crowds came for the popular acts, but the workshops and mainstage concerts were peppered with traditional performers. The good ones attracted attention, and some of the people who had heard them at a festival would come to their concerts four months later.

Radio is problematic. It seems like many "folk music" radio programs are skewed away from traditional performers and styles. Yes, there are exceptions, but like the rest of noncommercial radio, a lot tend to avoid "difficult" music that don't generate contributions from listeners. A guest shot by, say, a ballad singer or a Finnish accordian band, won't attract a lot of people to a concert if the program usually plays singer-songwriters and banjo pickers. On the other hand, I suspect that the folk music shows on WFMT in Chicago and KDHX in St. Louis are effective for drawing audiences to traditional music concerts.

The best way to build an audience for specialty music concerts is probably word of mouth. You have to build a reputation for quality, and offer a reliable product. And make sure that your series is known by the communities that would be its natural audience.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:57 PM

johnross is right about word of mouth being the secret to building audience, but you have to understand that today, "word-of-mouth" is wired--Text messaging, MySpace, and YouTube are the new media. People connect on MySpace, listen to/watch music clips on YouTube, and keep in touch with each other with Text messaging.

I'd never heard of Rev. Peyton's Big Damn Band, for instance, until Jayto mentioned them above. I've now seen and heard them, courtesy of YouTube, I know bio and schedule stuff, such as when they'll be near me, courtesy of the website, I know a lot about the people who like them, courtesy of their forum and blogs, and I even know that they left Carbondale, Illinois at 10:06 this morning, feeling pretty good about the fact that their new album, "The Whole Fam Damily" debuted at #4 on the Billboard Blues Chart, courtesy of text message, by way of Flicker.

If I wanted to, I could meet other fans, and even get a group of folks together to hear them, or even help to get them bookings, all the same way.

Keep the Flicker thing in mind, because it's probably going to make Email notifications a thing of the past!

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:00 PM

There is a fundamental element in folk music. The reason the "revival" got started in the first place is because there was a need to identify with the cause of humanity. This was the raison d'etre of the left-wing movement who wanted to improve the lives of people through compassion in government and politics. There was an idea, here, that motivated those in this area to see folk music as a means to this end. Many of the academics who were folksong experts such as Archie Green, Alan Lomax, Ken Goldstein, Irwin Silber, Botkin, etc. came out of this environment. This lead naturally to an interest in working-class music, protest and topical songs and cultural interest in agrarian communities. Woody Guthrie, Leadbelly, Big Bill Broonzy, Pete Seeger, the Almanac Singers, the Weavers, Josh White, Paul Robeson and other artists spearheaded this "revival" which had almost an evangelical fervor. Even the CPUSA went through a period under Browder that encouraged the promotion of the working-class through music. (Although during that time, swing music eclipsed folk music as an expression of laboring classes).

When rock and roll, R and B, and related music became popular, the need for physical
expression took root. ("Dirty Dancing" as a movie mentions this). The African-American contribution to music highlighted the need for music to dance as well as just sing. The visual aspects of music came in with MTV and the need to "see" the music as well as hear it. The participation was not just singing any more but moving to the music. When "academics" decried rock and related music, the "kids" rebelled. They didn't want to sit quietly and passively listen to many-versed ballads and story-songs. They didn't want to be told that this was somehow "good for them".

International music came to the fore blending political commentary, humanitarian values,
exotic and complex rhythms and singing styles as well as dance. African, Carribbean and Bahamian groups, Bob Marley, Paul Simon's "Graceland" etc. left it's mark on the evolution of the folk "revival". Gospel groups from the Staple Singers to Sweet Honey In the Rock informed folk music that you can move to also.

There has always been a rapprochement between folk and pop music. This is certainly true today. "Rap" in its alternative (anti-radio) form takes on a folk song character.
The stuff you don't hear on the radio is about injustice, inequality, working-class problems in the inner city, and a criticism of the value system of an elitist economy run by corporations and corrupt politicians.

The future of folk music in my opinion is the return to the humanitarian values that informed the rise of the "revival" of folk. Ayn Rand doesn't work with folk music.
Concern for the "other" is an important aspect of it. Social conscience is rooted in the
"revival" aspect. Without that, you have a vague stylistic show-biz image of the folksinger
who attempts to connect with an audience on an individualistic level not unlike the concert artists of classical music where the wall of separation between performer and audience is encouraged. The singer/songwriter becomes a surrogate for the concert artist expressing individual psychological, emotional and philosophical content in their songs. Hence, the coffee house.

I think we will see a time where folk music again reclaims a role in introducing through songs and participation social values of a humanitarian nature. Protest and topical songs will come back in a new form. A new audience for this kind of expression is on the horizon. It will again fuse a regard for "tradition" with contemporary awareness. I
can't wait!

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:42 PM

To me, "the reason the revival got going in the first place" was precisely because the songs spoke to us as links to the past and to the people of those other times. We sought out the old singers, and we listened intently to the songs the collectors had found for us to hold onto and to make our own. For me, the songs about "that mule" are apt to show us, overtly and between the lines, what people felt about the lives they were leading---good and bad--pro and con. Folk Songs were the passed down historical artifacts that came to us in the words of those that had lived the adventures of their lives and times and then, for posterity, turned it all into art. Was it accurate history? Some of it was. But it also contained the fantasies and extrapolations of the folks who sang to us through time. The songs illustrated how people wanted things to be, and not only how things were. As such, this was as close to finding an actual time machine as we will ever come.

That is what I always tried to show with the songs I saved and sang. If they were mostly tragic, with heavy topics, it is because, as I TRULY feel, life is basically tragic. Comedy is relief from that tragedy. ----- So I picked and chose folk tales, lore and jokelore, i.e. humor, to introduce the serious and literary songs that were so much a part of the gestalt.

Off the top o' my head, there's my two cents worth.

Art

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Marymac90
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 02:57 AM

Earlier in this thread, people were talking about cities
and areas that had rather divided communities, like one
group that liked dance, one for trad, one for blues, one for
singer-songwriter, etc.

In the late 70's, I was kind of trying out different cities
in the northeast. I moved from Syracuse, which had almost
no folk scene, to Albany for a year, then to Boston for a
year, and finally to Philly, where I stuck. One interesting
thing was that in Albany, a smaller city, there was a lot
more overlap between groups. You would see many (not ALL)
of the same people at the 8th Step Coffeehouse, the Contra
dances, both in the city and out at Fox Hollow, and the
Pick'n & Singin' Gathrin'. I never got to check out Cafe
Lena because I didn't drive back then.

Then when I got to Boston, a considerably bigger city, I
noticed there was a relatively small overlap between dancers
and song-appreciators. The same held true in Philly.

Another change between then and now that I notice is that
back then, contra dances and performances at coffeehouses
were quite inexpensive. I don't think the rises have just
been to keep up with inflation, though I have no gift for
economics, so I could be wrong. But when coffeehouse
performances were relatively inexpensive, you could plan to
go weekly, or close to it, even if you weren't totally sure
exactly what was going to be presented. Now I usually only
go to someone I really want to hear, and then only if I feel
like I can afford the ticket. Lots of people who were big
in the 60's and 70's are getting big bucks now as nostalgia
acts.

Marymac

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 07:48 AM

Hey, Art:

That has to be the best statement I've ever read of why traditional music rang true for us, and still does. It's not only time travel for me, it brings to life areas of the country and ways of living That im ight otherwise never have experienced.

I've always thought of music as being visual, too. In a way, it has the same quality as the old radio programs. Your imagination runs the projector, and the song is the soundtrack.

Jerry

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: John Hardly
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 08:13 AM

Yeah, it's and age thing. And every single half generation needs some cultural shoehorn to wedge themselves into an interest in folk music.

Northern Indiana has a very active folk music scene centering around Goshen, IN -- with one of the country's best concert venues in LVD's Concert Hall, and an active amatuer group of musicians meeting twice monthly to play old-timey music, a very active contra dance organization, and an instrument builder and his shop acting as a center for all this acoustic music interest.

MOST IMPORTANTLY: The Goshen scene has managed to cross the generational barriers. The Goldmine Pickers, Jay Lapp, Lukas Simpson and many others actively attending the jams and playing local concerts are in their thirties now and have been playing around Goshen for more than ten years. At the same time, folks in their sixties also regularly participate as well. In fact, one of the big joys of the Goshen scene is that the diverse age groups regularly play TOGETHER -- and not in an older-generation-teaching-the-young-whippersnappers-a-thing-or-two. Actually, in most cases, the younger among us are more musically skilled and engaged than the older participants. It makes for a much more exciting social/musical structure.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: John Hardly
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 08:20 AM

Point of interest, re:my post (above): Here is a video woth Jay (mando), Lukas (guitar), and both instruments they are playing were built by the instrument maker I mentioned in the post -- Jim Shenk.

Goshen's a pretty cool scene.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 12:33 PM

Nostalgia isn't enough. It has to have relevance. Someone's idea about how things used
to be might be distorted by a Rousseau view of a projected idealization. Most of todays' folkies don't have a clue as to how the people who were hungry, war-torn, poverty stricken, striving for a better life, or struggling for basic survival felt. Today's folk audiences are removed from this. It's all about coffee-houses, nostalgia for the Sixties, growing up in little enclaves that sat in circles and sang or danced, twittered about those on the outside of the clique, seeing who could come up with a song no one else knew, wearing blue jeans, watch fobs and growing beards to emulate what they think a folksinger is like, singing blues songs with a phony African-American accent or a country twang, glomming on to personalities as if they were some kind of Paris Hilton or Tom Cruise folkies. Sighing over songs that were written to be intended as oracles. Many are really trite poorly-constructed but conveniently masked in some kind of mysticism so that anything can be read into them.

American audiences have left folk music because it has become a caricature of itself.

In the meantime, folk music survives but not so that anyone in the folkie circles would recognize it.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:16 PM

You need to get out more.

Last month I went to hear a 'bluegrass band' at my local music store. The music consisted mostly of short sad tunes which were just an excuse to show off excellent stringed instruments. I heard great riffs, fascinating chord changes and nimble fingerpicking.

bass fiddle
two guitars
mandolin
fiddle
banjo

Halfway through we were treated to a traditional dance tune, and we got quite wild. But we were only allowed one of those. Something to do with the Puritan fathers, I guess.

The audience ranged in age from 10 to 70 and was attentive and appreciative. Why was it a small audience? No publicity.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 03:03 PM

Stringsinger says, "American audiences have left folk music because it has become a caricature of itself." the truth is more likely the opposite--folk music has become what it has because the big audiences left it.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM

You know, it seems to me that trying to explain where the audiences have gone is a little like trying to explain the "troubles" in Ireland - it is a very complicated set of circumstances. Quite a bit of what has been said above is on the money, but,...and Lord, I may be cynical here, but - I don't think that music matters that much to most folks anymore.

When I was a kid growing up, shortly after the fall of the Alamo, why, music was the core of our being and our heros were musicians and singers - what a great thing it would be to be able to play like them. You could go and hear "real" stars in various bars around town or coffeehouses, or whatever. Jerry Lee Lewis used to play at a bar on Wyoming Avenue in Detroit back in the sixties and ALL of the Motown acts (as well as various R&B and jazz touring acts)could be heard at a bevy of clubs in and around Detroit on a nightly basis.
My dad used to go hear the real Dukes Of Dixieland at the Crest Lounge over on Grand River in Detroit in the sixties while Gordon Lightfoot and Joni Mitchell used to play the coffeehouses in the area.

The heros of today are not musicians, they're "pop stars" who may or may not (usually the latter) have any musical talent at all, but really look GREAT. The heros of today are not musicians, they're athletes who make millions of dollars per year catching and throwing various balls around. The heros of today are not musicians, they're movie actors who come out with a new film every month and newscasts, magazines and talk shows are brimming with chat and disection on who these people are, who they are dating and who they are cheating with - it's a different world and I personally do not think that live music, at less than a major venue, with all of the bells and whistles and the tag of being an "event," holds much of an interest
any more for most people - at least those under forty.

Hey, I spent two hours one night sitting at a bar talking to a guy by the name of Bill Staines - ever heard of him? Bill Staines! My wife and I had gone out to see him at a Fort Worth pub about a year-and-a-half ago and less than twenty people showed up to hear him - less than twenty people! If Bill Staines can't draw twenty, how can I complain when I draw eight or nine? In fact, I recall seeing the door to the pub fly open in the middle of one of Bill's songs and three people stepped inside with a handful more behind them on the threshold; they scanned the room then one guy mumbled something and they all turned around and let the door slam as they left.

I'd love to keep going here but I'd bore y'all half to death and I do have to go pick up my daughter; but, one final thought here is that there is too much music. Think about it - there is music everywhere you go these days, so much so that it's hard to get away from it - a side product of technology and marketing strats to be sure; but, this is a good thread and the answer is complicated. Cheers.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Arkie
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 03:59 PM

Having read through this very interesting thread forces me to attempt to say several things. One is I purposefully avoided the thread for a while because I did not expect the depth of discussion that has evolved.

Second, here in a town of less than 3000 people, 100 miles from a real city, there are increasing numbers of young people becoming involved in playing the traditional music associated with the area. Many of these youth are encouraged by their families, some home schooled, and are moving to Mountain View, Arkansas because of the focus on music. Many of these young people are very good musicians and becoming better singers and are playing the music with some ingenuity so the tunes do not always come out the same as two or more generations ago.

Third, I was involved for over 30 years with the Ozark Folk Center, a state park focusing on the historic cultural traditions of rural mountain people. Visitors to the park were typically 55 or over and when attendance began to decline upper management assumed that it was due to people being drawn to the park because it reminded them of former times and those people were dying out. I reminded them that the folk music era of the 1960s was focused on, and fueled by, young people in major cities such as New York, Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc. who were not stirred by previous experiences or fond memories. I do not believe that nostalgia plays a significant role in creating or supporting an interest in folk music. While the songs and the tales they tell may be old they strike a chord of relevance in some people. Musicians will sometimes indicate they are preserving something they perceive to be of cultural value. That is, generally, a lie because they do not understand, themselves, why they are drawn to something outside the mainstream.

The trick is understanding this relevance and this thread has been useful attempt in this regard.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 04:17 PM

Then M.Ted, what the big audiences left was something apparently not interesting enough
to sustain them. And what is left? Is that interesting enough to bring them back?

The question is if the American audiences have gone, then why? If what is left,
is really folk music, then where is its power to sustain interest?

What has folk music really become? Is it really folk music or a caricature of itself?

Who can articulate why anyone should care with enough clarity to widen the audience?

Why should an audience get interested in this mode of expression today?

I'm just trying to follow the thread and the questions it asks.

The American audiences have dwindled for what is called folk these days. Even
the term turns some audiences off.

Sure, you can boogie to bluegrass but what does that mean in terms of clarifying
the context of folk music?

What I think is that what is called folk has lost its way. It is out of context in contemporary society. The glue that holds it together has dried up because of
the artificial stereotypes that the practitioners engender.

Here's the solution. Concert promoters have to look at a bigger picture than just
selling their "acts". They have to see folk music as participatory not passive.
They have to present it in a historical context so that audiences understand
why its important. The former audience played and sang with an understanding
that there was a connection that was larger than a personal attraction. It was a
kind of social movement which became fragmented and insular.

Many denigrated the idea that it was a social movement. Many asked, what's in it for me?
The recording companies exploited this idea. The academicians attempted to control
it by making it less accessible to the public. There was a fear that folk was too associated with political agendas. Now it has become a nostalgia trip.

There is nothing wrong with a "folk revival". It doesn't have to mean that it is a commercial success. Van Ronk's "Folk Scare" was misplaced in my opinion. Along with
the uninteresting music of the Kingston Trio, there was a gateway into the richer world of
folk music through them. Much more so with Pete Seeger. There was a time when
traditional performers stood side-by-side with the so-called "revivalists" and both
were enriched by each other's company. It was because the "revivalists" had a real interest in the music and not just after the next gig.

Bob Dylan doesn't personify folk music. He is a small part of it. The singer/songwriter
who has studied the traditional side of folk music is writing the durable songs.

M. Ted, you say it's here but I think it's a shell of its former self.

Frank

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: John Hardly
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 04:34 PM

I think that what's at the core of the very question -- the question of "where have the American audiences gone?" is flawed to the extent that it accepts a priori that the brief times in folk music when it might have had an audience is the norm, not an anomoly.

But it's FOLK music. Audiences of any great size would be the anomoly. By definition.

Any great audiences are either an anomoly, or they are because someone has taken stylistic elements common to "folk" music and turned them into pop music -- P,P&M, Weavers, Kingston Trio, etc. Just as soon as it is that....it is not folk. It is pop.

The thing that is keeping MUCH of music from the folk music tradition alive today -- especially with younger people -- is the new virtuosity that has caused a renaissance among the young...with festivals, workshops, clubs, schools, recordings all OVER the place -- they're ubiquitous. It's the thread that can be traced back to Scruggs-White-Rice-Sutton-Thiele-Hull and on up. It's the "athletic" element of hot licks and INCREDIBLE musicianship that has younger people intrigued and entering the fray. And older people -- "folkies" -- can't keep up. They don't have the chops. If they weren't already hot (like Scaggs or Rice) they are passe'.

Some older people appreciate this new view of the folk process. Other old people are just intimidated the heck away from it -- they want some respect for ground they may have covered thirty years ago. They may get if from some of the younger folks. Mostly not though.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 05:00 PM

John Hardly,

You are correct. The story in the songs from history are where it was always at for me.--- At the same time. I enjoy listening to a hot picker the way I felt terribly privileged to be gifted with watching Michael Jordan or Michael Phelps or the 2005 Chicago White Sox series winning mastery of everything baseball--from the execution of the basics to the four complete game victories by the pitchers to win the Series!!

Still, every track on all my recordings was only me singing with my instruments---except for one track on my second LP in 1979 where Cindy Mangsen sang a harmony. WHY?   Because that's what folk means to me! The rest isn't wrong. But it is sad to see what I feel is important marginalized by the listeners of today.

That's my take ---once again! John H.--you be correct.

Art

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 05:07 PM

To get more "back on topic" for Ron: When, in my lst sentence in the above post I said "listeners of today," I am talking about "the audiences of today."

Art

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 05:14 PM

Well, here we go again. Jack Hardly - I am one of those old
folkies who doesn't have the chops, but that doesn't matter - I am what I am and I do what I do. To folks who don't play an instrument I am a perceived as being great; to others who do play - they are bored to death with what I do.

We evidently travel in different circles. Most of the young folk I know who play music have absolutely no interest in folk music - period. They have no idea who Scruggs, White, Rice or Scaggs is and they don't care. They turn their collective ears off at the sound of Altan, Danu, the Clancy Brothers or Solas because it's "old," or it "ain't happening" or whatever. Music for most of them music is on one continuous time line and what is past is past and is "old hat," and what is "happening" is now with an eye to - what's new around the corner?

Sure, there are a lot of great young players out there, but there were a lot of great young players out there when I was a kid and there will be plenty great young players out there when my grandson is a young man - and they'll be playing the same notes as did Charlie Mingus, Chet Atkins, Issas Hayes, Jimi Hendrix, Bob Dylan and you and me - and the same chords, too. Music is not played or learned on a straight time line, there are all different styles and they meld together at different times and lend themselves to "old" ways, "modern" ways and new ways yet to be played. Every time I do an Irish festival I come across "monster" young kids who play circles around me and yet come up to me after my shows with heart-felt compliments on what I do. I am excited about the young kids, but they are not the norm (in my opinion) and, they do not make up the audiences we are talking about here that are disappearing.

This really is a great thread because it can go in so many different directions and still be correct. Cheers.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: John Hardly
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 05:38 PM

"Because that's what folk means to me! The rest isn't wrong. But it is sad to see what I feel is important marginalized by the listeners of today."

Goddang, Art, what is at the core of what you do may get marginalized from time to time, but thankfully it will never disappear. It couldn't. The musical world would stop spinning.

I'll never forget the first time I heard your music. I was travelling south of Kalamazoo and tuned into their public radio. I heard this mahogany and molasses voice SELLING me this WONDERFUL tale. My heart stopped. I swear it did.

Simplicity, well done, will never disappear. But as I said, the closer to folk, the smaller the audience. If that's "marginalized" then, yup, it'll get marginalized. But brilliant, in-the-know, taste-gods like me will always hold our collective breaths to hear YOU sing any damn word YOU ever wanna bless us with. And that's the truth.

And you and I know one of those other "marginalized" guys -- Joel Mabus. I can't rightly think of ANYONE -- young or old -- with hotter licks than Joel. And writing? ...god, the guy is a stone cold genius. How big are his audiences?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:21 PM

I think John Hardly brings up an important point--most Americans never had heard folk songs, like "Goodnight, Irene" or "The Midnight Special", or "On Top of Old Smoky" til it became Pop music.

And no matter where the something starts out, once it is "Pop Music", it goes from being" The Next Big Thing" to "The Latest Thing" to "The Same Old Thing" and ends up as "Nothing".

The "Folk Music Scene" that has gone away is a lot like your high school class--it was your world for years but the day after graduation, it disappeared. You can't go back, you can't recreate it, and the new classes belong to others.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:29 PM

That sure is dead on for Joel. He was always an unbelievable instrumentalist, but when he added the humor and the verbal insights to his presentations, and his song writing too, well, if he'd drop 60 pounds he'd be unstopable!! ;-)

Art
(Thanks for your kind words. I do miss being able to do it now.)

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 07:47 PM

I've resented Joel Mabus since he first started coming to our MSU folklore society meetings 35 odd years ago. He was just too damn good--and he was always smiling!

Seriously, though, in those days, we could draw 200-400 to concerts that featured the likes of Joel and other equally talented local folks(and,though John may hardly believe it, there were some hot pickers around back then)--

I suddenly remember that, mostly as a result of the fact that they saw that there was such an active interest in "folk" music, the University started a very successful concert series, using the same campus venues that we used, that brought John Prine, Steve Goodman, Bonnie Raitt, and many others, to the campus.

But what I suddenly realized was that after this happened, the attendance for our "local" shows fell off precipitously. Hmm.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: johnross
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 08:31 PM

To return to stewart's original question, and address some of the other insightful comments upthread, the "folk music audience" here in Seattle is fragmented. There are separate audiences and communities that pay attention to old-time stringbands, fiddle music, singer-songwriters, traditional singers, blues, bluegrass and several varieties of ethnic and "world music." Each of these groups has their own concerts, parties, dances and so forth, but there's practically no overlap.

Even at the annual Folklife Festival where all those communities participate, each community and style has its own turf.

Almost all of these communities are relatively tiny, and only a few local "folk" performers can reliably fill a 400-seat concert venue: Jim Page, Baby Gramps, Riley & Maloney are about it. But neither Jim, Gramps, nor Ginny and David are specifically drawing the folkies, even though they all have their roots in traditions. Some of the touring nostalgia acts can attract big audiences, but those audiences are not the ones who come to hear either the Folklore Society's singer/songwriters or Stewart's traditional acts.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Tom Nelligan
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 09:07 PM

"There are separate audiences and communities that pay attention to old-time stringbands, fiddle music, singer-songwriters, traditional singers, blues, bluegrass and several varieties of ethnic and "world music." Each of these groups has their own concerts, parties, dances and so forth, but there's practically no overlap."

That could descibe the scene in Boston too. There is a huge Celtic music community that includes a lot of great young instrumentalists and singers, a revived American roots music community that took root at a couple Cambridge bars, and lots of young singer-songwriters. There is a lot of fragmentation between genres that wasn't present forty or fifty years ago, but on the whole there are a lot of people around here playing and listening to noncommercial music, and an awful lot of them are under 30. And as someone wrote way above, the crowd at the Falcon Ridge Folk Festival is about as generationally diverse as you'd ever want to see.

At the same time, I've been to plenty of folkish concerts where the average age was 50-something, usually listening to a performer of the same vintage. That's not necessarily a good thing, but I am also aware that the younger generation populates acoustic/roots shows that I don't go to because either I'm unfamiliar with the performers or they start too late at night for an old guy. So it goes.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: John Hardly
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 09:13 PM

Seriously, though, in those days, we could draw 200-400 to concerts that featured the likes of Joel and other equally talented local folks(and,though John may hardly believe it, there were some hot pickers around back then)--

Hey, (I know you're kinda pulling my leg) I'm obviously overstating the case a little bit in order to make a point I think is still valid -- that the MAIN draw right NOW is the hot licks thing. But, heck, I know there've been good players all along -- maybe not as much "depth on the bench", but certainly good players.

In fact, I was just talking about the fact that I first saw Jeff White play as a VERY early twenty-something in the late 70s. He was already great back then, though "undiscovered" at that point.

For that matter -- you named one really good player in Goodman. I think many forget just what an good, infectiously entertaining player he was.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Stewart
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 12:21 AM

I've sort of stayed out of this for a while, although I started it with the first thread. I don't think it's just about folk music, but music in general, that people aren't coming out much anymore to hear live music. They are constantly bombarded by a lot of noise, commercial junk, TV, radio, etc. It may be an example of what I learned in my college economics - Gresham's Law, the bad (money) drives out the good (money). People may not be aware of any good music and certainly don't want to hear anymore of that noise. I've encountered a few (non-musician) neighbors who have come to our house concerts or one of our jams, who are amazed that they've heard some really good music (had never been aware of it before) and it's just played by local people.

One of my main musical activities is running the monthly concerts for the Haller Lake Arts Council. We've put on a wide range of music with some of the best local talent - one of our best Klezmer bands (performed on Prairie Home Companion), a hot young (20somethings) old timey band, two fantastic young (20 yrs old) fiddle/violin players (an old-timey/Irish fiddler and a virtuoso gypsy jazz violinist with his own band), a very hot bluegrass band, Scottish harp, etc. etc., with only modest audiences at best. I don't think it has anything to do with the genre or style of music, it's just that people for whatever reason don't want to come out.

What John Ross said about fragmentation in Seattle, I think is true. We have a large fiddle community that plays mostly at contra dances (another large and separate community), the singer-songwriter community, a small trad folk community, and so on. And there's little overlap and each community is not large enough to provide a very large audience. Also there are many things going on, so whatever audience there is gets spread quite thin.

I think maybe the key is in building communities. Not necessarily just musicians, but people in general who live close by in the neighborhood, have common interests, etc. But that is a slow process and requires a lot of work. Maybe we have to be happy with the small audiences we have and nurture them and hope that they grow a little.

But I am still trying to puzzle this out, which is why I started the first thread.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:03 AM

As per the hot players, I was specifically talking about local guys, like Joel (who was a strictly local guy in those days)that we used to feature in our Folklore Society related concerts--We also had banjo picker Charlie Smith and guitarist Jeff Tordoff, who could play hot bluegrass at a time when there weren't many bluegrass pickers around--we also had guys like Norman Blake and Andy Cohen,show up from time to time, as well as Mr. Thieme from above--the other acts were sponsored by the University.

As you say, though, the hot picking emphasis is a fact of life nowadays though the idea that fast, flashy picking was the ultimate goal of music was an unfortunate idea that inhabited the 60's rock/blues world spread to other kinds of music like zebra mussels--

There is a movement in the opposite direction, though, a and there are a lot of players who consciously avoid polished and flashy playing.

Best of times and worst of times, I guess.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 10:56 AM

We can all learn something from the advice Arkie hands out. I have been to the Ozark Folk Center alot. Mt.View is a town I would love to live in. If there os any place I have ever been that is getting it right on passing down traditional folk art and music it is Mt.View Ar. I mean the place is a folk musicians dream. Throngs of musicians play music around the courthouse square every night. It is an amazing community and amazing people. My girlfriend and I went out to that area this last May for the weekend. This was her 1st trip and my who knows how many'th lol. She fell in love with it instantly. The musicians start showing up in the morning on the weekends and it is late before they finally stop. I started playing with musicians at around 10 am and didn't quit until after 2 am. They have chairs sitting around downtown in front of the courthouse and in front of businesses and people just show up and play. It is such a neat place. Arkie is one opinion you can trust about preserving folk music. His area is one of the few places I have seen that is doing a great job of that.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 11:22 AM

"I reminded them that the folk music era of the 1960s was focused on, and fueled by, young people in major cities such as New York, Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc. who were not stirred by previous experiences or fond memories. I do not believe that nostalgia plays a significant role in creating or supporting an interest in folk music."

Interesting point.   Jerry made a statement earlier that while he wasn't a farmer, he had a connection to some of the songs he was singing.   While the connection may have had a touch of nostalgia, I think that for many "urban folkies" of the revival, folk music represented a change in values and lifestyle that appealed to young people in a post-war era.   Let's face it, youth has always been drawn to rebellion - even in subtle ways.

I spent yesterday at the Philadelphia Folk Festival, and I think they are on to something. While Newport may have thrown everything out the window, the organizers of Philly seem to have caught on to the proper mix - showing a connection from roots music to contemporary.

In particular, Steve Earle's set really woke me up. Earle uses trad instruments - banjo, guitar, etc., but he also incorprates perscussion and a mix DJ. What he is doing is the same thing the folks in Appalchia did centuries ago - taking the tools they had available and creating songs that would educate, entertain and preserve history. His songs sprout from a community.   Now, Steve Earle is a bit older, but you can see his example being followed by other young artists.

I don't think the audiences have disappeared - they just look different. The folks in the flannels and paisely have or are on the verge of moving on to different pastures and there is a young generation taking their place in a community that they will help shape and send to future generations. The old songs and traditions won't be forgotten, they are beng respected, but a new generation needs to take the great gift we have been able to share with them and make it their own.   We can't complain if they put the gems into a new setting, it was never ours to keep.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 11:41 AM

Sheez, what a great thread. Enlightening.

All the fractured-genre-scenes in the big cities, all the 'no-folk-wanted' attitudes from the mainstream...yet in SMALL towns, if you're lucky and the scene isn't completely nonexistent, you still have people patient with 'different' kinds of music. Still a familial attitude of being willing to hear from the young student or the old geezer or the wannabe popster, or whatever's locally available.

Maybe the cities were, and are, what is strangling real participatory folk music. Maybe they can mount a great three-ring-circus festival and people will come out for the sampler aspect of it, but there's little no audience or patience for a single plucker for a whole evening, because there is no real Community of folks willing to go hear or play or sing with their neighbors.

Meanwhile, MOST small towns, at least in the South, have turned into podlands full of shut garage doors and satellite antennas, punctuated by football games. If you're very lucky, there'll be some youngsters learning bluegrass fiddle so they can go compete, and a gospel quartet at church.

People, if you have a folk 'scene' of any kind, be glad and support it, because it is getting rare, and succeeding despite these headwinds.

A side note: when I was growing in the sixties-seventies, several places to hear good folk were booming. They were in nightclubs and bars completely closed to teenagers. Then you were surprised when the next generation didn't pick up the ball and keep running with it? The festivals and workshops we have today are bringing in new players if not audiences, because they are accessible to families.

Another side note:
I thought it was amazing how "Jayto" kept reporting in with new happ'nin trends and bands, all excited, and the seniors ignored him to go on with 'why things are so bad' explanations.   Maybe what we have here is a failure to communicate?

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 11:47 AM

Thank you pattyclink. I don't see the scene as being that bad. In contrast I see it as evolving and healthier that it has been in years. I think it is going through a change but I hear and see more young people interested in folk than I have in yrs. I have been playing and around the folk seen for almost 20 yrs and it has more energy right now than I have seen the entire time. It is not the same scene by any means but everything has to evolve to survive. Folk music is not that different. The term Folk means people. It represents the people singing and writing it. People are different so the music is gonna be different. That is why it is called Folk music and not Old music.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 11:47 PM

I've always figured, as a performer, that people who liked what we do, liked it a lot. So we've kept going. I also thought that I shouldn't worry too much about people who didn't. As mentioned above, I would like more people to come out and support live music of whatever style it is they like. But this is also a problem that is plaguing jazz venues and blues and other places, too.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:59 AM

try this American piece, done right


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64QHbB-11fc

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 06:31 AM

Like others, I'm also following and enjoying this thread. There is a lot of good information and well expressed opinions. As I digest the different viewpoints, I hope to conribute some of my own thoughts. For now, "we have met the enemy ... and he is us" comes to mind! Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: John Hardly
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 06:49 AM

"try this American piece, done right


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64QHbB-11fc"

Let me guess...

...your favorite painter is Thomas Kinkaide?

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:48 AM

"I thought it was amazing how "Jayto" kept reporting in with new happ'nin trends and bands, all excited, and the seniors ignored him to go on with 'why things are so bad' explanations. "

Very interesting indeed. I think it says more about a generation rather than a music scene. It always surprises me because I felt that the generation that gave us the "folk revival" was a generation that was open to new ideas and exploring new territory. "Folk music" has ALWAYS been an ambigious term because there are so many traditions at play. Blues, old-timey, sea chanteys, Cajun, protest, urban folk and dozens of ethnic styles and more all have room under the "folk" umbrella.

I think it boils down to people gravitate to a style of music in their teenage and young adult years, and that style stays with them for life. Yes, many people will listen and enjoy other styles of music, but deep down I really think the core values are formed by what is embraced in our youth.

I purposely titled the thread "have the American audiences gone?", with emphasis on a question, not a perceived statement.   I do NOT think that audiences have disappeared.   Having hosted a radio program centered on this style of music for 28 years, I think it is the best shape it has ever been in.

Jayto's sharing of "new" artists points out something that should not be overlooked.   Many of the groups and artists he mentions are very regional. While many artists strive for success and eventual national touring, many are also satisfied with sharing their music in their own region. To my view, this harkens back to earlier days when collectors would travel the highways to discover new music.   In 2008, we simply need to set foot on the Internet to begin discovering.

I've noticed a thriving music "scene" in Boston and Philadelphia. I'm afraid that the NYC scene, which was once so important to the folk revival, has been splintered - but that might be a good sign.   The Village is no longer the center of the universe, but there are strong pockets of music coming from Brooklyn, Westchester County, and Hoboken, NJ- and elswhere. Maybe the suburban movement has finally caught up.   I remember speaking with a songwriter who was very influential in the "Fast Folk" scene of the 1980's and early 90's.   In retrospect, he described the Village scene of the time as an "urban white ghetto". The diversity of people and music was lacking. Hopefully, we've moved on to a more inclusive and accepting time.

What I find extremely interesting in this thread are the descriptions of what is happening in various regions of the country. I hope more people will share their views of their own "market" and tell us what is happening - both for audiences and for practitioners of the styles.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 10:13 AM

I agree 100% Ron. I have found some great music on this page. I am listening to one of the members right now and I am loving it. Check out Ron Bankley on myspace OMG he is awsome. This is why I said this site is such a needed thing. Connecting with musicians,writers,singers, and music lovers in general about something we all love. I felt isolated years ago when it came to folk music. All my friends played heavy metal and top 40 country and I loved playing folk. I was laughed at alot back the by other musicians for being different. I remember hearing it plain as day "You play that Hee Haw shit." was a favorite saying back then. I just kept trucking and then eventually all of them were trying to figure out what and how I was playing what I was doing. I don't get that anymore from musicians. It does not have to do completely with my ability on my instrument. There is an interest that was not there before among younger crowds. I love being able to jump on here and talk to others around the world about a style of music I love. I think that sites like these and the people I have met and talked to on here are going to help push folk more into the forefront of the music scene. Everybody gets hung up thinking about the big names that has brought the music to the masses. I think the coolest ones in folk are the ones that influenced someone to get into the style. Folk music has been carried on by the unknown artists passed on to uknown artists and eventually one of them will be known. Top 40 music would not be passed on in this fashion. That is the magic of folk. I know I am not getting my point across like I want to right now but it is the unknown and underdogs that are going to keep Folk evolving and alive. So everyone needs to give themselves some credit. We are continuing the scene right now. We are working to keep the music alive and going right this second. Without even realizing it we are taking the next steps to preserving an art form we all love.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 10:16 AM

Oh wait check out DW Ditty on myspace too. Man there are some great artists on here. I am proud to get to know all of you.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 10:32 AM

"Folk music has been carried on by the unknown artists passed on to uknown artists and eventually one of them will be known. Top 40 music would not be passed on in this fashion. That is the magic of folk. "

I think you hit it!   Traditionalists look at me as if I had three heads when I try to explain that singer-songwriters of today make up a community in much the same fashion that rural communties used the oral tradition to create their community in previous centuries.   These traditionalists will also claim that if we follow that definition then anything can be labeled folk. Not so!    Spend time listening to these artists and observing how they create music and you will see the difference between "popular" and "folk".

It is all about knocking out stereotypes. That "Hee Haw shit", "Mighty Wind" and the all-time worse - the scene of Belushi destroying a guitar after listening to Stephen Bishop sing "The Riddle Song".   These images and more have become roadblocks that keeps people from sampling the music.   Likewise, an electric quitar or contemporary fashion keep other generations from trying something new. In the end, we will like what we like, but if we continue to judge books by their cover - we are potentially missing some incredible music.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:53 AM

I just got back from the Milwaukee Irish Festival over the weekend.

The lineup included: the Barra MacNeills, the Kilfenora Ceili Band,
the Celtic Tenors, Eileen Ivers & Immigrant Soul, Gaelic Storm, the Fuchsia Band, the Makem & Spain Brothers, Scythian, Seven Nations, the Saw Doctors, Solas, Tom Sweeney, Fiona Molloy and myself, among others too numerous to mention. Oh yeah, several schools of Irish dancing.

So we had the entire spectrum of Irish/Celtic/ Scottish/Nova Scotia/ Cape Breton. From magnificent traditionalists like the legendary 100 year-old Kilfenora Ceili Band to the Saw Doctors and Seven Nations; from Ballad groups and singers like the Makem & Spain lads, Tom Sweeney and me, to hot bands like Solas and Eileen Ivers.

We all went to see each other perform, and we jammed together back at the hotel until the wee hours, hot-shit pickers and ballad singers alike. We saw no difference in what we do.

The best of all for me was the Scattering - the last show on Sunday - where we were all on the big stage together playing, singing and dancing.

It was organized by Tom Sweeney an Joanie Madden (of Cherish the Ladies).
The songs and tunes were selected and we all did our bit for what looked like about 20,000 people out in front.

We swapped verses on the various songs, and one of the thrills of my life was singing a verse of the Leaving of Liverpool with the Kilfenora Ceili Band, and all the others playing behind me.

It was musical COMMUNITY at its finest, and even though we each have a specialized niche - ballads, trad instrumentals, rock, dance, we can all come together, because ultimately it's the music that binds us.


Seamus

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 01:45 PM

Nope, no Kinkaide, John,..hardly. but you got to admit, she plays it real well!

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:01 PM

"Let me guess...
...your favorite painter is Thomas Kinkaide? "

Not to stir the pot any further, but this is a good example of why the folks on the other side of the pond seem to have so much trouble.   The judgemental snipeing that goes on only creates roadblocks.

While Celtic Women might not be everyones cup of tea, we should be celebrating the FACT that an American folk song is being honored and shared to a new audience.   Aaron Copland was a master of this, and perhaps he deserves more credit for futhering the folk revival. Folk music, and traditional song, DID make an impact into the pop world and as someone else said earlier (I think it was Frank Hamilton), it opens doors.

We all have opinions and taste - and that is normal. Celebrate the music that brings you joy and you can turn other people on.   Sarcastic comments only give a momentary boost to ones ego for trying to be clever, but in the end the negative attitude serves as a deterrent and reflects poorly on the originator of the snarky comment.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 03:06 PM

Fascinating discussion.

"I think that what's at the core of the very question -- the question of "where have the American audiences gone?" is flawed to the extent that it accepts a priori that the brief times in folk music when it might have had an audience is the norm, not an anomoly."

I think John Hardly is right on the money there.

When I bought my first guitar back in 1952 or so ($9.95, and the salesman threw in a free pick), if you mentioned you were interested in folk songs, most people, thought you were talking about "Country and Western" or "Modern Western Swing"—a la Sons of the Pioneers or Roy Acuff.

Between when I first started singing for audiences, said audiences were always fairly small, but avid and enthusiastic. I sang for things like the Overlake Library Association annual banquet, and at the Washington State Museum of History and Industry, and did a series entitled "Ballads and Books" on educational television (funded by the Seattle Public Library).

When folk music suddenly became popular music and all the coffeehouses wanted a resident folk singer and student organizations began putting on concerts and "hootenannies," one evening in 1963, I sang for a crowd of 6,000 in front of the Horiuchi mural at the Seattle Center.

Since folk music was now pop music, when The Beatles spearheaded the "British Invasion" and the pop music fad changed (as it always does every few years), the big audiences went elsewhere.

The Northwest Folklife Festival (initiated by the Seattle Folklore Society—see Stewart's posts above) is a huge event every Memorial Day weekend. It doesn't seem to know whether it's fish or fowl. Among the hundreds of thousands who attend and the thousands of performers (heavy in the singer-songwriters), if you creep up into one of the meeting rooms in the northwest corner of the grounds at the right time, you might actually hear a traditional folk song or two.

These days, when someone hears that I used to make my living singing and they ask me what I sang and I respond "Folk songs," often their eyes glaze over and they say, "Oh, you mean like the Kingston Trio. . . ."

That's the older folks. The younger folks sometimes say, "Oh, yeah! I saw 'A Mighty Wind.'"

Sigh. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 03:16 PM

"I think that what's at the core of the very question -- the question of "where have the American audiences gone?" "

Just a reminder, that was NOT the original question of this thread. The question was, HAVE the American audiences gone. I think you answered that Don when you mentioned that:
"Among the hundreds of thousands who attend and the thousands of performers (heavy in the singer-songwriters), if you creep up into one of the meeting rooms in the northwest corner of the grounds at the right time, you might actually hear a traditional folk song or two."

I think that sums up. The audience is there and "folk" music is now being recognized for ALL the flavors and styles.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 03:17 PM

I don't get the "Thomas Kincade" comment--I don't think that was a fair comment, John Hardly-the set is more like TBN, and she looks a lot like Jan Crouch.

And, to be a bit serious--Ron, why does it make any difference that she is playing "Shennandoah" instead of say, "Humoresque"?--There is nothing about this performance that I can see that makes it folk music at all. It is Vegas-like entertainement, of the sort that looks oddly like TBN.

And the comparison to Copeland--sorry, but he didn't do anything like that. Here is some real American fiddle music,   Bonaparte's Retreat and halfway down is William H. Stepp's recording, followed by the amazing piece that Copeland based on it.

Copeland was a great composer, Stepp was a great country fiddler, and Celtic Women may be great entertainment, but it's neither of the above.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 03:46 PM

"There is nothing about this performance that I can see that makes it folk music at all."

I agree, it is not a "folk" performance.

You can sing a non-folk song and still be making folk music, and likewise you can have a folk song and not be making folk music.

For instance, the song "Home on the Range" - since we know the author it is not a folk song based on historic defininition, but it sure fits the catagory of folk music.   The same with this performance. Celtic Women, Riverdance, Bowfire, and other shows of the ilk are not "folk music" performances per se, but they do serve to celebrate folk song.

You are right, Copeland's use of folk song was much more appropriate and respectful, but that was not the point I was trying to make. Folk music has influenced other genres of music and crept into our culture in more ways than we realize.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 04:13 PM

Well, Ron, we've splintered lances over this issue before, but in my opinion, you are using an exceedingly broad definition of what constitutes folk music—verging on the "horse definition."

But as I say, we've argued it before and got noplace, so let's just press on.

Back to our regular broadcast. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 04:37 PM

You are right Don, we have discussed this before - but my lance is still in pretty good shape thank you!

I really do not consider it as "broad" as you claim and it is far from the "horse definition".   My point is that there are different traditions at play and there is a difference between a "folk song" and "folk music".

I don't want to see ourselves get as splintered as our Brit friends have shown on similar threads. If you wish, we can discuss this further via PM, but I think we both have to respect the fact that we each have different opinions, and folk music is strong enough to survive them!   :)

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 05:36 PM

Everyone has their own definition of " folk" means, and they all do what they want, even when it conflicts with their own definition--for that reason, the discussions mean even less than they seem to mean.

If we've discovered anything, it is that there are audiences out there, but that they've moved around a bit, which shouldn't be surprising, because our whole society moves around a bit.

It also shouldn't be surprising that older people are clueless as to what younger people are interested in. The "never trust anyone over 30" generation know that Sixty- Somethings neither know, like, or understand the world of the young--and yet, here they are, spouting the same old same old about the interests, tastes, and lives of the younger generation.

The truth of the matter is that the music hasn't really changed much--it may be mixed differently, but isn't everything?

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 05:40 PM

If people make 'folk music' holy enough, it'll end up needing churches.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: John Hardly
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 06:10 PM

"I don't get the "Thomas Kincade" comment"

M.Ted,

You gots no cultcher.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 07:21 PM

I've got enough to know that that woman looks nothing like him.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 07:22 PM

I'm afraid this is degenerating into the same senseless arguments as in the previous thread - what is or isn't "folk music," old folks' music vs young folks' music, traditional vs singer-songwriter, etc. That is not the point I had in mind when I started the first thread.

The point I wanted to make was, at least in Seattle, audiences for all types of live local music seem to be very small. I wouldn't characterize my Haller Lake Arts Council series to be "folk music." I've booked a wide range of music by local musicians - from near classical to old-timey, blugrass, and even some singer-songwriters. And nothing seems to draw much of an audience.

The singer-songwriters I've booked, although they were some of the local best, hardly drew more than 15 or 20 people. They're singing all over town at coffeehouses, pubs, etc., so everyone has heard them before. And those that haven't heard them, don't seem to know anything about them or their music and are not inclined to come out. The Seattle Folklore Society books many out-of-town singer-songwriters with fair-sized audiences, simply because it's someone new and there is a lot of hype about how great they are, when in fact they're not better in many cases than the local talent. However, when the SFS booked a genuine traditional folk musician, Mike Seeger, they sold out the hall, standing room only! You'd think they might learn something from that.

For me, it's the quality of the music more than the genre or style. I do both instrumental fiddle - Irish sessions, some Klezmer, old-timey, and even some classical sounding music, and also sing with guitar (traditional ballads, songs of the sea, some Yiddish songs, and even some newly-composed songs). I couldn't care less about what it's called or whether someone might consider it "folk music" or not.

The thing that precipitated this discussion for me was that I was invited to do part of an afternoon gig in a coffeehouse along with some singer-songwriter friends of mine. I did my more traditional songs and instrumental pieces. But for the whole afternoon there were no more than 3 or 4 people actually listening to the music. It was a nice performance space and it was fun to play there, but it was more like a rehearsal than a performance. I then realized that this was the norm for most of our local singer-songwriters performing around town.

This may be something unique to a large city, and Seattle in particular, I don't know. As John Ross said, we have many small musical communities, which don't overlap, and which can't support any one type of music to any great extent. The situation may be quite different in a small town where there are not so many things competing with each other and there is a better sense of community amongst the people.

Or this might be a symptom of our culture in general where people are overworked, have little spare time, are bombarded by noise that the commercial music industry tells us is music, and we don't interact much with our neighbors or other people we might meet, and we seem to be glued to our computers, iPods, TV, and other forms of 'passive entertainment'.

One of my more enjoyable music activities is having a dozen or so friends in my home for a monthly music jam. There we do all kinds of music - instrumental to vocal, solo to group singing, backup and improvisation. Maybe that's where it's at, and I should be content with these small get-togethers and not worry about audiences.

That's about all I have to say.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Stewart
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 07:36 PM

I'm sorry,
that last post we me sans cookie.

S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 07:50 PM

"However, when the SFS booked a genuine traditional folk musician, Mike Seeger, they sold out the hall, standing room only! You'd think they might learn something from that."

We booked Mike Seeger at the Hurdy Gurdy, Tony Trishka showed up to perform a few tunes with him, and drew around 60 people. It was a great concert and everyone of those 60 people left with a great memory of an outstanding artist, but we lost our shirt. We did a lot of publicity too.

The following season we sold out several shows with a few singer-songwriters who had not played our venue before. Go figure.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:39 PM

Guest (S. in Seattle) - it's surely possible that I didn't say it correctly on an earlier post, but you wrote what I have been thinking all along this path - audiences for ALL types of music are
disappearing; so, I will go back to my earlier point - live music in 2008 simply does not matter to most folks. Unless the music is presented in a major venue and/or is itself, an "event" - most folks simply do not care.

In my opinion there are at lease a thousand reasons for this and most of them revolve around technology and (again, my opinion) the reality that musicians are not the "heros" of the younger folk these days - it's actors, athletes and "pop stars" who usually cannot read music, don't play an instument and are not particulary good singers without a ton of electronic manipulation - but damn, they sure look good, don't they?

I also happen to think that there is an attitude - spoken or not - that prevails just about anywhere "local" talent performs, and that is - if you're any good, what are you doing here? Why are you not in Nashville, or L.A., or New York?

To me it's cultural and it's just where we're at at the moment; I mean, gee, I know DJ's who make five or six times what the average sideman makes in a nights work, so how do you compete with that?
The answer is that you can't if the people say you can't. I don't have an answer for it but I'm gonna keep on keepin' on because that's what I do. You do it for the love and you do it for the money, but you can't force folks to come out and listen if they just don't give a rats ass. Goodnight from Texas.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Stewart
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 12:21 AM

Texas Guest,

You couldn't have said it better.
I agree completely. I remember your earlier post, but I just couldn't find it at the time. Thanks

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 01:42 AM

Texas Guest couldn't have said it better, but he's still wrong. People go to see a lot of live music. The top 100 US concert tours draw upwards of 30 million people a year--and the average ticket price is about $50. And again, that's just to top--there is a lot more live music out there than that. And it brings in a lot more money.

People still go out to see live entertainment, and they spend a lot more money on it than they ever did before. They just maybe don't like to hear the music that we like very much--or maybe we don't happen to live in areas where people like the kind of music that we do very much.

It's time to wake up and smell the coffee--we're getting older, musical tastes change, and the people who spend the money and fill the seats are a different generation.

Time to re-define what we do, find different ways to express ourselves, recognize and appreciate what is out there, and to stop expecting the present to be what the past was.

Is that clear enough?

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 09:36 AM

I agree with M.Ted.   While the numbers might not be the same as they were 20 years ago, there are still many opportunities for live music and people are going out - but there is more competition.

Texas Guest alluded to DJ's making 5 or 6 times as much as sideman. I am certain that Guest refers to club DJ's who spin and mix recordings to generate an atmosphere.   There is more talent required for that job then people give credit for - a talented DJ in a club will draw a following.   However, this is a different style of music from the folk styles we have been discussing. It may be an option for some, but I don't think this draws away from folk audiences.

There are more non-profit venues presenting monthly or weekly concerts than ever before. Bookstores, coffeehouses, libraries and other community venues are open to music these days.   Don't forget the house concert scene- an important factor in the way music is presented in 2008.

People are going out to see live music, they are just going to different places to do so.

I also truly believe that we are seeing more people trying to make it in the music business than ever before. For a minimal investment, people can now record decent sound in their homes and burn CD's. As a radio host, I am receiving more CD's than ever before. The competition for finding a slot to perform is greater than ever, and while I believe this has allowed more talent to be exposed, it has also allowed mediocre talent to flood the field as well.   While the cream still rises to the top, it becomes a harder process.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 09:37 AM

M.Ted, you wrote, "People go to see a lot of live music. The top 100 US concert tours draw upwards of 30 million people a year--and the average ticket price is about $50." I couldn't, and wouldn't dispute that statement, but we're not talking about folks not going to "events" and "happenings" and major concert venues - we're talking about live music in general and "local" live music specifically.

You also wrote, "People still go out to see live entertainment, and they spend a lot more money on it than they ever did before." Again, I cannot dispute that, but I do believe that the money they are spending is not on local talent - it's at major concert venues and festivals and such.

Then you wrote, "They just maybe don't like to hear the music that we like very much--" - this I would dispute because most every time I perform at a pub there are folks who are much younger than me (ten to twenty years) who come up and request specific songs that are certainly from my generation or earlier. Sure, there are folks who don't like what I do - lots of them - but there's many more who do like the songs of my generation as well as those of previous generations. My wife is fifteen years younger than me and grew up on Metallica and Meat Loaf and she simply loves big-band music. Music of all kinds is cross-generational or styles would run their course, die and we'd move on to the next "thing."

Again, you wrote, "Time to re-define what we do, find different ways to express ourselves, recognize and appreciate what is out there, and to stop expecting the present to be what the past was." You are pre-supposing a lot of attitude here. Writing for myself, I am what I am - I sing and I play guitar and I sound a lot more like Donovan than Dave Matthews and I don't need to re-define myself. Again, why are folks not going out to support live music in small venues, whether it is jazz, blues, dixieland, bluegrass or folk? None of those genres need to be re-defined, they are recognized and apprecitated, but they are not being supported except on the bigger stage of "events," and again, I just don't think that music matters to a whole hell of a lot of folks these days.

Finally, I am drinking the coffee, I am getting older and musical tastes do change; but, the people who do spend the money are of several generations, with many musical tastes - and they are still not coming out to support live music on a less-than-grand scale.

You wrote, "Is that clear enough?" Yes, Sir,...crystal. Cheers.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 10:02 AM

"Again, why are folks not going out to support live music in small venues, whether it is jazz, blues, dixieland, bluegrass or folk? None of those genres need to be re-defined, they are recognized and apprecitated, but they are not being supported except on the bigger stage of "events," "

I disagree. The small venues that are moving with the times are doing well. The ones that are going to sit back and continue old modes of operation will see a decline. Historically, venues reflect the trends of a younger generation. When the Big Bands were in vogue and the audiences were under 30, the venues were packed. As the audience aged and thinned out, and the entertainment budget was sucked up by family obligations, those venues would see a decline - unless they changed the way they operate and the audience they cater to.

Folk music, jazz and bluegrass are living traditions. The audience matures and the genre DOES go through a re-definition. If you try to avoid that definition change, you are then correct in assuming that your audience will dry out.

Remember, we are talking about audiences - not styles.   I love to watch silent movies, but I'm not expecting to see new silent movies produced. I can enjoy the ones that were preserved, and I can still go to a theater and enjoy what Hollywood and independent film makers are creating today.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM

GUEST--If it's not broke, don't fix it. If you are happy with the music you play, and the audiences you play it for, that's fine. To paraphrase John Prine:

Dear Guest, Dear Guest,
You have no complaint
You are what your are and you ain't what you ain't
So listen up Buster, and listen up good
Stop wishing for bad luck and knocking on wood

Signed,

Dear Abby

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 03:24 PM

Sorry Mudcat, the "Guest" was none other than meself who hit the button without putting a moniker in - the humblest of apologies. I guess we're going to go round the mulberry bush of this thread for a long, long time but it's beginning to get pointless.

The simple fact is that audiences for live music in small venues, at least in my world, have greatly dried up - and that is a fact. It is also a fact that technology has changed the way folks, and especially young folks, spend their entertainment money; and, the reality is that young folks today do not go out to pubs and sit and listen to music -they go out to socialize and to party. That being the case, the music they encounter at a pub can be live or recorded, but they don't really care because the music is an afterthought. When young folks want to listen to music they go to a concert at a venue designed for such. Another reality is that most folks don't listen to music much any more - they hear it because it's EVERYWHERE they go - but they don't usually listen to it as a matter of enjoyment. Sure, there are some folks who go out to listen but they are way in the minority.

As for "styles vs generations," I don't know where you are at, but I have young people at my shows asking for songs from the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's - all the time. And, I do songs from each of those decades and even the 1800's. Why? Because they are good songs and a good song doesn't die simply because it was written forty years ago - that's nonsense.

I've got twenty-somethings asking for anything by Neil. Neil Young? Sure, but do you do any Neil Diamond? I've got thirty-somethings asking for, "I Wanna Sit Right Down And Write Myself A Letter," and then a young man sends a note up to the stage asking for "Cats In The Cradle." And, everybody requests Jimmy Buffett songs regardless of how old or young they are; this thing has little to do with being younger or older - it has much more to do with the changing culture and lifestyles and my contention is that technology has a great deal to do with that.

Well, that's enough for now; time to be moving on. Cheers.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 03:39 PM

"The simple fact is that audiences for live music in small venues, at least in my world, have greatly dried up - and that is a fact. "

Guest, I would like to apologize - I did not mean for my previous post to sound as if I denying your report. I think we were both speaking in generic terms, and perhaps you are reporting on what you are seeing in Texas, although your use of certain words leads me to think you might be talking about the UK. If I'm not mistaken, you are describing a pub (or bar) scene which is a bit different from most the venues that I was referring to that present folk music in our area.   

My post was really describing what I see here in the NYC/NJ area.   I did not mean to discourage anyone from joining this discussion - after all, we are just sharing opinions. I really did not mean to stifle anyone. Again, my apologies if that were the case.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 05:57 PM

Texas Guest says, "The reality is that young folks today do not go out to pubs and sit and listen to music -they go out to socialize and to party."

Early on, when I first started singing in coffeehouses, I patterned the sets I sang after what I had seen nightclub performers (of various genres) doing. Most of them would do an "act" of twenty-five to thirty-five minutes maybe three or four times during the evening. I generally did the same thing, usually starting every hour on the hour. This left a good half-hour for people to chat freely without disturbing others who wanted to listen to me, and it also gave the (PC alert!—sexist word!) waitresses a chance to ask people who had been there for a couple of sets, "Would you care to reorder, ahem, ahem?"

One coffeehouse owner kvetched at me because thought I was slacking off. He was used to piano-bars where the pianist played background music for most of an hour, then took a five minute break. I explained to him what I was doing and he still didn't buy it, so I tried it his way. Didn't work anywhere near as well. Less turnover, fewer reorders, and people tended to talk a lot if I sang more that half an hour. So I went back to my own way.

I think tailoring one's presentation to the nature of the venue makes a big difference.

Dunno if that contains any worthwhile information, but I just thought I'd toss it out there.

Ruminations and speculations.

Seattle Opera's General Director Speight Jenkins recently announced that Seattle Opera has the highest per-capita attendance of any opera company in the country. The Seattle Symphony has shown a recent growth in attendance, especially since it moved into its new digs at Benaroya Hall, and Pacific Northwest Ballet also boasts the highest per capita attendance of any ballet company in the country, with 11,000 subscribers (!!). Early Music Guild performances are generally quite well attended. The Seattle Youth Symphony is doing well, as is the Bellevue Philharmonic.

Seattle and environs probably has more live theater, such as the Seattle Repertory Theater, A Contemporary Theater (ACT), and various small theater groups than most cities its size. The Fifth Avenue Theater with its road-show productions of Broadway shows is doing well.

All of these are all-out, fully professional productions. Seattle Opera is the fourth largest opera company in the country and features well-known singers. The Seattle Symphony under the baton of Gerard Schwarz is considered a world-class orchestra.

Smaller musical groups such as The Esoterics, or the group that local folk singer Nancy Quensé sings with, The Medieval Women's Choir, usually performing in large churches and almost always fill the venue.

And then there are the eleventy-fourteen sports stadiums that the tax-payers are repeatedly mugged to pay for, and they seem to be pretty well attended, despite the fact that (in addition to the tax subsidies) what you have to pay for tickets would buy you a good late-model used car.

I'm not sure how well rock concerts are attended around here because I don't follow that, but the Paramount Theater, at least, almost always has something going on and I've heard that ticket prices are similar to those of sports events.

The Northwest Folklife Festivals are shoulder-to-shoulder mob scenes every Memorial Day weekend, but I seriously doubt that the vast majority of people who go to it are there to hear folk music, or anything that even pretends to be folk music. The Bumbershoot Arts Festivals, same venue but over the Labor Day weekend, is a similar crush of people.

So in spite of gas prices and recent raises in the cost of living, it isn't that people are not going out anymore.

I'm not sure what all this tells us. . . .

Interesting thing to contemplate:   almost all of the above have regular subscribers. Seattle Opera, for example, sells season tickets, and they almost always have close to sell-out houses. Eleven performances of Verdi's Aida is going on now. Four more operas coming up, along with individual recitals of singers such as tenor Ben Heppner. Most of these events are pre-sold, some through subscriptions, and are always to capacity or near capacity houses.

Can we learn anything from "the big kids on the block?" I don't know. I'm just asking.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Mooh
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 07:00 PM

Not American, but small town southern Ontario, Canada. Locally, most of the venues are gone, and those that are left get free entertainment from the musicians who will play for free. Once in a while the venues will pay a band, usually for an "occasion", but often enough they will pay a DJ. The audiences want a bigger show, and will travel to the city easily to see one.

Sigh...

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Rosalie
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 12:22 AM

Regional differences are real. In New York City there is intense competition for audience. Here in Brooklyn within walking distance of my house, there are 9 or 10 bars presenting live music. Two or three of them occasionally present what I would consider folk music. The "coffeehouse" at the Ethical Culture Society (sure it's a church) was a folk venue from about 1972 to maybe 2000. It still has live music every Friday, but seldom has folk music of any kind.   
    It does host the annual Park Slope Jamboree put on by James Reems. The Jamboree is very successful, I've heard it draws about 700 people for old time & bluegrass music. It is inexpensive,$4 from noon to 11:00PM, but more important, it is PARTICIPATORY.   All afternoon there are groups of people of all ages jamming in the yard, and the evening concert is always standing room only while the diehards keep jamming outside. Do people prefer making music to listening passively?

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 12:42 AM

I have to admit I was always the die hard jammer. I will and still hit the jam sessions and stay there. I love to jam with other musicians. Just the other night my girlfriend stopped to go into store to get a drink. I saw a guy picking a guitar on the tailgate of his truck. Well I got out and went over and wound up jamming with him for a while. I can't complain about that because I am guilty and I always have been. My first musical experience was a barn where poeple went on Friday nights and played music . There was a stage but everyone had their instruments out in the crowd and when they played a song everybody onstage and off played along. I loved it but to this day I cannot pass up a jam session. It doesn't matter if they are good or not I love to jam with the other musicians. So guilty as charged on that one.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 03:12 PM

Here is a link to Ukulele Cabaret , which I have never been to, but have been following on line for a while now--it is pretty much exactly like the coffeehouses that I remember from the golden age of folkscare, mix of funny, good, interesting, and "What was that?" only thing is that, I've never been to Jimmy's No. 43 in the East Village, but I've been getting emails from Jason Tagg for a couple years, and this evolved from his webcasts--

Beyond that, the only difference is that everything sounds great on the uke--

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: johnross
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 03:36 PM

Without criticizing what you have done, Stewart, I wonder if the low attendance at your Haller Lake concerts is related to the amount of publicity the series and the individual concerts are receiving. Not just agate listings in the Folklore Society and Victory Music calendars, and maybe the daily and weekly newspapers, but features that explain why a potential audience member should want to attend. And handbills at other concerts and related events (such as the Folklore Society concert or Victory open mikes). Maybe live guest spots and CDs on KEXP and KBCS (the two local stations that promote live alternative music - that's for the benefit of other 'catters reading this outside Seattle). There are plenty of editors and colunists who will take a decently-written press release and use it. If the artists supply press kits, use them.

In this marketplace, a concert promoter has to be aggressive to break through the noise.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Mooh
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 04:06 PM

Jayto..I too love to jam, but around here a jam ain't the same thing as a band that will play for free, and rarely rises to the level of proficiency of a typical band, free or otherwise. (The exceptions are the rare music store impromptu jams and the sessions at celtic festival time.) When there's magic...oh yeah...

Many local audiences do the sports bar thing, the theatre thing, the rented movie on someone's big screen thing, stay at home to avoid public intoxification or police attention, gather at a friend's place, and even the internet claims people.

I suspect there's a wide difference between city and rural audience demographics.

As for me and my seat in an audience, I'm often asked why I didn't attend something or if I attended something, and the answer usually is that I had my own gig somewhere. I've missed some pretty good acts because I was playing some other dump to unappreciative folks. The cost of doing business...um, music.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 04:18 PM

Good points, John.

One of the things I was skimming around in my above post was that the Big Kids do a lot of on-going promotion as a matter of course. A few weeks before a new opera is mounted, Speight Jenkins, General Director of Seattle Opera, is on KING-FM for a half-hour several evenings a week talking about the opera, outlining the story, and playing recorded excerpts. Gerard Schwarz, conductor of the Seattle Symphony, has his own program on KING (weekly, I think), playing works recorded by the Seattle Symphony.

I'm not familiar with KEXP, but KBCS often has interviews with musicians and singers who have performances coming up in the area. And it might be worth approaching KUOW, particularly Dave Beck, about a guest shot talking about one or more concert series'.

If one could work a deal with one of these stations (like the opera and the symphony has with KING-FM) for a guest shot or an interview about up-coming concerts as a regular thing, at least people will know about it. Part of the problem may be in promoting events only within "established folky" circles (if I may use such terms).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: johnross
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 09:54 PM

Don, it helps that the Opera and Symphony own KING-FM (along with a couple of other organizations). That's the only reason they're still doing classical music. You won't hear nearly the same amount of promotion for other performing groups or presenters.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 10:28 PM

Hmm! Being a friend of the boss helps. Being the boss is even better!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 11:39 PM

In Chicago, papers say they won't really cover folk. They say they don't have writers who know about it (not true a even a year or two back). They still sometimes list folk concerts, but won't do an in depth article. We done radio interviews, though sometimes that only brings in one or two extra bodies. (If you are interviewed the day of a show, even if people hear it that might want to come, there's a good chance they already have plans). It's hard to say what gets a buzz going about one act and not another. I was glad to see jayto's links to some younger bands, there's hope for the music still.

I know in Chicago in the 80's-'90's a couple of the club owners missed the boat when they didn't realize their old clientel were not going to come out on a week night for a 9:30 show anymore: job and family responsiblities. Having earlier shows would have helped. Audience demogrpahics change. Boy, Ron, this is a good thread.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Rosalie
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 12:03 AM

Advertising is hard. Here in New York buying ads is very expensive. The Folk Music Society of N.Y./N.Y. Pinewoods Folk Music Club prints hundreds of fliers to give out at related events & venues, & we ask our members to post fliers. My guess is that we get about one new person for every 1000 fliers, but this is just a guess. Word of mouth is best.
The on-line event listings are difficult, because each one has a separate form which must be filled out. None of them focuses on folk music. Do any of you use them?
We do buy ads in the CDSS newsletter & some folk festival programs.
Someone above mentioned having members like the opera does. We have members, but they don't come to our events as much as they used to. Possible reasons: cable TV & internet, longer working hours, aging & having less energy, "summer houses", i.e. going to a second home most weekends.   Many of our members now get together to make music with small groups of friends they met through our programs instead of coming to the larger group programs.
One other factor: 30 or 40 years ago we were primarily a singles group. As people got married, they did not go out as much, even if they married people they met at our events.
Another factor: The individual performers our members loved 20 or 30 years ago are not as likely to be performing now (many are dead, e.g. Utah Philips).
If we lose two people for each of these reasons, our event is not as well attended.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: johnross
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 01:33 AM

Rosalie makes an important point:
>Another factor: The individual performers our members loved 20 or 30
>years ago are not as likely to be performing now (many are dead,
> e.g. Utah Philips).

Hindsight is easy, but we failed to expose the next generation of performers to our audiences as well as we should have done. Every concert by a well-known performer who filled the house should have included a opening set or guest set by a young or new-to-the-scene performer that the audience would not have otherwise come out to see and hear. Same thing with "tweener" sets at festivals. If the guest set is good, some of that audience would come to see them when they're at the top of the bill. And the audience for the established act would have been exposed to somebody out of the next generation.

But that didn't happen, and so we now have a generational divide within the "folk" audience. The same people come to hear the same acts that they first knew twenty or more years ago, and those people don't know or care about the newer generation of folksingers.

True, the guest set method is not always practical, especially with touring acts coming to town for the first few times, but there's probably some good local act that could benefit from the exposure.

Here in Seattle, that's how Jim Page developed a following and learned his craft as a performer: he showed up at everybody else's gigs and offerred to do a couple of songs during the break. Made a nuisance of himself, but he got onto lots of stages, sometimes two or three a night. And he gradually developed his own following.

But it's also important to understand that people don't have to come to concerts: as somebody (probably Yogi Berra) said, "if people don't want to come to the game, you can't stop them." It's the concert promoter/presenter's job to attract an audience in site of the inertia, competing events and indifference that drives them to do something (or nothing) else.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 01:36 AM

What Seamus described is the way it was in Chicago forty years ago. An all accepting gathering of disparate musicians from multiple musical preferences and proclivities. There was no competition to speak of. For a while, anyway, there was pride in the fact that competition was looked down upon. We loved each others music, and the beat went on.

We musicians and the audiences dyed our hair gray, and, as Phil Cooper mentioned, we went to bed at a more reasonable hour. We aged---and then we began slowly shuffling off this mortal coil. It's progressively, more and more fascinating to me that I now know more dead people than live ones. (As Mark Graham said in his song, "Who'd a thunk it!?")

This is where the audiences have gone!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

Ron I posted on the other thread. If you think that American folk audiences have gone away you should hang out at the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago. It's alive and kicking and you'll find something to fit any definition of "folk".

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 10:27 PM

Frank- I do NOT think American Folk audiences have gone away, that is why the topic is written as a question.   The audience has changed, but it it strong as ever - at least in my neck of the woods and I'm glad to see in yours.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Melissa
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 02:09 AM

I live in a rural area and have more music gatherings than I truly want. Some of these gatherings are direct descendents of the local musical past but they somehow miss meeting the various definitions of 'folk' I've seen here.
Locally, we just call it Music--as in "are you going to Music tonight?"

I've got a couple boys who are more than 20yrs younger than me and a handful of Olders (by 20+) that I call 'students'. I figure I'm doing my part to make sure we have music in the area for a while. Besides, it's fun.

Last night's gathering was a Gospel Jam in a town with population about 300. There were about 20 musicians and roughly the same number of audience. I don't enjoy gospel much but the townies seem to like it and sometimes while the rest of the bunch is eating, a few of us sit in a corner and play stuff I do like.
The church thing is monthly.

My town has under 500 people and we regularly have anywhere between 5-20 musicians. When we make a sort of formal invitation, we have townies sitting around visiting/listening. The rest of the time, our audience is a handful of wives.
That one is weekly.

So, no Folk Scene around here, but Music is alive and kicking in this particular rural area.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 09:34 AM

Thanks for posting, Melissa. That's interesting.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Marymac90
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 11:05 AM

johnross made a point about the generational divide.
The Philly area has some things that counteract that.
There are several weekend events that people attend
with their kids, which gives the kids something of
an intro. One of those events, the Philly Folk Fest,
also draws a lot of young adults without parents
along. There is an organization called Xtreme Folk
Scene, or XFS, which has its own events. Some of
the members are grown kids of well-known local
folkies. There are still an awful lot of us grey
heads, but these things help.

Marymac

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 02:41 PM

The Boston area is a stange mix that doesn't cross genres that much. There's an old timey session that draws weekly every night there's at least 1 Irish session + many inghts there's 2 or 3 going on at the same time. Lots of open mikes there's 4 shanty sessions within a 75 mile radis + 1 in Gloucester on a Tuesday eve that draws about 50 with at least half being folks that always sing along to everything + 200 "folk" venues within 100 mile radis. Yet, aside from the sessions you'll hardly (there are some exceptions) find trad except for the local Folk Song society & they draw mainly from themselves. But what's strange is that if there were a trad event, they'll come out of the woodwork. My wife & I saw Carthy/Waterson last winter, I saw some folks & musicians I hadn't seen in over a decade. Boston is loaded with trad & contemporary folk fans but you won't see unless it's a one time special or a unique event. The festivals like Old Songs & Mystic draw & the small fest get some decent attention but take the Boston Folk Festival, all singer songwriters, hardly a folkie to be found there but they get a big draw. It seems that the SS in my area do very well but the folk (aside from sessions) do poorly. Please let's not do the SS is or is not folk here again. Myself, I don't want to go to a musical show/concert/production/party unless I'm (the audience) a part of it. I want to hear about the song itself, sing along on the chorus. We used to have pig roast every year, maybe 100 people would show during the course of the day, most were singers or musicians. Irish on the porch, bluegrass on the lawn, singing inside who knows what in the barn. SOme folks & some neighbors would say "Wow, never been to a pary where poepl would play there own music". Well, I hardy have been to parties where they don't. But it seems that, that type of home grown music is being replaced be the sit down & entertain me type of music. I watch TV & in many of the series I watch there seems to be an abundance of SS background music, likle what's being played as folk music a a lot of the local venues, matter of fact, I can't believe I recognize some of the names. So is the swing of the audiences leaving what was once a folk genre & heading to a softer more commerical SS typ? Is the aduience not getting smaller but just heading in a different direction. Going from where we once spent time & energy being part of the show to a presentation where we sit back to be cleverly entertained without expending any energy? I know we're all getting older but! The shanty session I go to in Gloucester, you'll find (no teens, it's a bar) a hefty amout of 20 to 30 somethings on up to 70 somethings & the locals (mostly colorful waterfront characters) seem to enjoy it almost as well. The Irish sessions I go to are loaded with young'uns, it spans from teens to 60's & 70's a well mixed crowd. But for "folkies" it more the old folks. So what are the sessions doing that attract young folks as well as old that the concert/coffeehouse venues are not doing?
I don't get out to go to coffehouses & concerts, they cost much more than I can afford except for the very odd once a year thng. The sessions (I don't drink alcohol) cost me very little, gas to get there & a couple of drinks for the evening. Is it the same for others, I wouldn't think so but I can't say.

Barry

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 04:21 PM

Thanks for posting that business about XFS, Merrymac--here's their homepage--and beware, To paraphrase the commercial slogan, "It's not your father's folk music"--Xtreme Folk Scene Check out the links--like it or not, this is the future --

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And dont criticize
What you cant understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin.


Remember that? It cuts both way;-)

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 04:38 PM

"So is the swing of the audiences leaving what was once a folk genre & heading to a softer more commerical SS typ?"

Barry, a few sentences earlier you said you did not want to get into a discussion of "is it folk". That is a loaded question!!!

Unfortunately it is hard to separate that from the discussion, but tastes change with the generations.   While the XFS sessions or the Tribes Hill events here in the NY area certainly differ in musical style from the shanty scene, they both represent a community that is developing a tradition and operating in a folk style. The oral tradition might have changed, the songs might not be traditional, but there is something happening that many people are enjoying and participating in. I would hesitate to call it "commercial", because it is isn't, but it is different. You do not have to be singing folk songs to make folk music.

Regardless of the difference - I think there are some lessons that can be learned. Why is one style, in your area, not supported as strongly. Why are people, in your area, gravitating toward SS instead of trad? Can, and more importantly - should anything be done?

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Jayto
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 06:05 PM

Music has evolved through the years. More aggresive music has emerged and has it fans. There reasoning behind heavy aggresive music could be speculated for years to come on this board. I have to admit I like it but then again there is very little music I don't like lol. One thing keeps popping in mind as I read this and think about the things being said. Alot of songs that are staples of the folk scene were in thier time scandalous and cutting edge social observations. Check out the thread on murder ballads for instance. They were dark and violent songs. Aggression being expressed musically is not a new development. The music backing it has changed but the thoughts and emotions haven't. The lyrics and musical ideas behind alot of these songs were pretty extreme for thier time period. I have said it many times and stand by my statement that Folk has a direct link to Punk and Aggro music today. I came from the Punk scene years ago. I noticed alot of guys my age were former fans of Punk. I got to thinking about why so many musicians my age were former Punk cats. Then it clicked Folk is about social observation and documenting social behavior and events so was the Punk I listened to. Folk is still a fringe music form. It is not the commercially mass produced bull that is being shoved down our throats by mega-corporations. So was the punk scene years ago. No coporate board chairperson tells you what you are hearing by playing 24-7 on the radio and tv. It allows originality and truly represents the life of everyday people. The biggest kicker though is that Folk has the best music human beings have ever produced in my opinion. Noone writing a clever line for sales just writing what thier heart tells them or told them whichever applies. It shows a link between all people and cultures. There has been alot of talk about how songs from England, Ireland, and Scotland became American folk songs just with different words and/or names. To me that just shows how people are people regardless of what they call thereselves or where they are from. So we are just witnessing a new bunch of musicians standing up and basically saying "Hey we have the same thoughts and emotions but this is our voice this is how we express it." and I think that is great.

Subject: RE: RE: have the AMERICAN audiences gone?
From: Deckman
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 05:02 PM