BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: mouldy
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:24 AM

It's coming past our village again in (I estimate) about an hour, so the cameras and I will be taking a little stroll!

Andrea

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: mouldy
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 07:39 AM

I missed it. Damn!

Andrea

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 08:23 AM

Never mind, it'll be out and about a great deal now.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: HuwG
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 09:05 AM

My two penn'orth. One; she's a beauty. I'm glad they replaced the awful blue primer she first appeared in with the old LNER apple green.

I'm puzzled about the whistle. The whistle on the LNER A4 "Pacifics" ("Mallars", "Golden Fleece" etc.) had a lovely mellow tone, because the steam for them was tapped directly from the boiler. The same whistle, applied to other classes, was mounted at the end of long taps from exhaust steam pickups, and sounded anaemic to awful. I don't know quite why they seem to have reproduced the fault on "Tornado".

Thirteen carriages is quite a lot, and "Tornado" is producing some impressive power. However, it is ironic that only since the end of the age of steam, have some of the designs (and operating procedures) been perfected, or improved. For example, it was only in recent years that they fixed the valve event problems on the solitary BR "Duke of Gloucester", and a reconditioned "Evening Star" started a special train weighing 2,500 tons; a record for any type of traction in Britain.

I am all in favour of "Tornado". There were indeed endemic problems with steam (smoke, grime, lineside fires), but complaining about *one* locomotive seems unnecessarily sour. I do indeed remember the final days of steam in Britain, with all its drawbacks, but I still think much of character and pride was lost when the engine became merely a rectangular box.

I don't hear similar complaints over reconstructing Drake's "Golden Hind" (sailing ship) for example, or recovering B29 bombers from lakes, or recreating mediaeval settlements or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Bainbo
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 12:53 PM

Mmm. I see it gets on the national news now that it's made a run to Kings Cross.

Yawn. Old news. Come on, London, try and keep up with the rest of us!

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 01:19 PM

michaelr - what a misery you are! The Tornado is just about the only bit of joyous news about at the moment. I reckon its existence gives everyone (except you, of course) a real lift.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 08:24 AM

http://marcsphotographs.fotopic.net/p56276449.html

Enjoy!

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:21 AM

Master shot! And you got there in spite of the Great British Weather.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:56 AM

michealr, you'll be pleased to hear that the Tornado is not in reality a coalburner, it was secretly fitted with the miniatuare nuclear reactor that was removed from the Naval College in Greenwich so all's well!

Excellent documentary on BBC4 some weeks ago telling the story of the Tornado, 'Absolutely Chuffed' as I remember the title and the 'Guardian' did a centre spread photo spread showing the footplate & controls together with insructions on how to drive this beast. So be warned should I ever come across it standing in some siding with steam-up but unmanned the police could have the most serious case of TWOC'ing ever seen!

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: ced2
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 09:37 AM

You have puzzled me HuwG. Would it not be dangerous to have the only warning device working from exhaust steam? What would happen if steam were shut off and the loco was coasting along using no or very little steam and the driver suddenly needed to sould a warning? Indeed would there not be even more time delay with a superheated engine?
Also were not the Britaninas fitted with chime whistles, was the Duke?
Apple green would surely be an anthama to Darlington! Much too much Doncaster there!

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 05:27 AM

I wonder how many of Porta's recommendations were incorporated:

http://www.martynbane.co.uk/modernsteam/ldp/60163/60163.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 05:29 AM

http://www.a1steam.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=98

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 12:24 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:23 PM

Those are good questions about the steam whistle, ced2. I don't know the answers.

However I'm pretty sure that the modern high-pitched whistle is safer than the beautiful, mellow whistle of yore. The high whistle will carry further and will cut through competing sounds such as car radios and cell-phone conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: ced2
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 03:30 PM

I now know the answers about the steam whistles. It would have been both illegal and dangerous to have the whistle on an exhaust steam supply. Apart from the scenario I outlined earlier; BEFORE setting off a steam locomotive driver had to sound the whistle... this clearly could not be done if the whistle was supplied by exhaust steam. I did check with a couple of friends who are drivers on a standard gauge line, (having only had a ticket to fire and drive on a narrow gauge line myself I wanted to be sure before I spouted off). (One of the chaps I spoke to is rebuilding a bullied pacific). To clear up the technical bits, the steam for the whistle is usualy tapped off the boiler manifold where the steam for injectors, ejectors and any other bits of mainly ancillary equipment is also tapped off. (The steam for motion exiting via the regulator head).
I spoke to a member of the Tornado support crew he told me that Tornado has both chime and "ordinary" whistles!
"Brit" 70013 along with all the other "brits" has a chime whistle and it was making some nice noises on the Worth Valley at the weekend, much as I remember it in 1967 on the Settle & Carlisle.
Tornado is in an apple green but there are 4 such versions... which one it is I am not sure as I have had 2 different answers from 2 different members of its support crew. One said Darlington green the other said apple green (the differences grew up partly out of the bad feeling by the ex NER people at Darlington when they perceived the the GNR people had got most of the top jobs in the LNER at the grouping of 1923). I undestand from one of those support crew members that Tornado was initially finished in workshop grey. I thought this to be the case when I saw it at York both before and on the day when it made it's initial main line test run to Barrow Hill on Nov 6th 2008. This is likely to be true as it was the practice of many companies to finish one of the first of a new design of locomotive in workshop grey for photographic purposes, remembering of course that it was monochrome photography, and contrast was more important for that exercise than colour. I was also informed by my contact that the colour of Tornado is likely to be changed a number of times in the future to show all the liveries that the Peppercorn A1 pacifics sported during their working lives and to satisfy the different memories and aspirations of those who supported the buiding of it.
As to the valve gear being the problem on the Duke. The one word reply from my contact was NO! I have to say however that he poo-pooed my understanding of the fundamental problem that caused heavy coal consumption (and at certain times poor drawbar horsepower) although we were clear that the manifestation was to drag small lumps of unburnt coal off the firebed and up the chimney without them burning properly. (reference to the BR "black book" will explain about coal combustion and the fact that 90+% of heat comes from the burning of the long chain hydrocarbons given off when the coal is completely burned). I might, in the next week or so meet, some of the people who really do know what the problem was, If I do I'll ask them.
Apologies for the rambling nature of this but a fair amount of mis information was spouted in one contribution. I have sought not to do that, alas at the expnse of brevity. Oh and by the way 13 is not a heavy load for a pacific, A4s (and V2s) frequently lifted a grossly overloaded 19 or 20 out of Kings Cross during the war without any banking loco at the back.
I am also unclear which operating procedures have been improved by volunteers on volunteer railways making them better than those carried out by the thousands of people who were paid professional railway workers, when it, the railway, was the major mover of people and freight in this and other countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:25 PM

I saw Tornado at South Croydon, in the dark of course, and didn't attempt a photo although I had a camera with me. They are now building another 50 such locomotives at secret locations in order to keep up with government pollution targets!

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:49 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Phot
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 03:14 AM

There are a whole load of new builds out there too. The GWS are building a Saint, and a Railmotor, the Llangothlen Railway are building a GWR County, the Bluebell a Brighton Atlantic, the 72010 group a 6mt Clan, Tysley is building a Bloomer 2-2-2, the frames have just been delivered for a Standard 3mt 2-6-2t, and a fund has recently been set up to build an LMS Patriot.

Anyone got a favorite class they would like to see built?

Wassail!! Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 07:33 AM

Well, from all accounts that I have read written by ex-GWR-railwaymen the most liked GWR loco was the Grange. It may not have been the fastest or most powerful but it performed its alloted tasks the best.
A 47xx would be nice as well.

I'm living in Lancashire now so an L&Y 4-4-2 would look nice, and for the freight side how about a large boiler L&Y 0-8-0.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: HuwG
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 02:40 PM

A belated answer to ced2's post. I have been rummaging in the attic for my sources, but too few of my old books have survived purges.

E.S. Cox, in "Locomotive Panorama", described holding a concert for train whistles, and stated that the A4 chime whistles sounded rather feeble on other engine types because of long pipes, full of condensation. Terry Essery, in "Steam Locomotives Compared", suggested that some auxiliaries normally worked from exhaust steam, but were automatically fed from live steam when the regulator was closed. Unfortunately he doesn't state whether the whistle was one of these. ced2 is probably right; it would seem unusual to use exhaust steam for the whistle, but I will have to re-read the voluminously detailed Essery again, more carefully.

I looked at some other steam train videos on YouTube. One I liked was of a Black 5 on the notoriously steep Settle and Carlisle line, pulling ten carriages and a very dead Type 47 diesel locomotive up a gradient. It produced smoke to rival Mount St. Helens, but it pulled.

My dream for new design or build, would be for a properly designed and draughted "Garrett". These never did well on British main lines; there was one whopper (the LNER U1) which banked heavy coal trains up the Worsborough Incline from Barnsley to Penistone, and thirty-three also used for heavy freight on the LMS. This class was badly designed in detail, with inadequate axle boxes and brakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 07:45 PM

I still think a "Leader" would be good. It was an experimental design. Bullied could have had more time to develop it or at least Riddles could have had a good crack at it. A Southern "W" class could be a project as there were a lot of K,N and N15 parts used. I know people would say there are enough spams including rebuilds (Lucky I guess that so many were saved. IMHO)There are Garretts available 1 in Glasgow and 1 in Manchester.

"Make loco's not war", could be the battle cry of the 2010's.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: van lingle
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 08:25 AM

Thanks for the excellent photos, Bonzo.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 12:03 AM

'"Make loco's not war", could be the battle cry of the 2010's.'

It sounds like a good concept, Eric, but here in America we don't call them locos. 'Loco' means crazy here. (from Spanish, I think.) This could get very confusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 02:53 PM

"Tornado" looked fantastic at the naming ceremony last Thursday (by Prince Charles and Camilla no less). The engine hauled the Royal Train to Leeds after the ceremony.

See shot by Messrs. J Kirby and G Shepherd. That's a new one - two people using the same camera at once!

http://www.clagmonster.fotopic.net/p56491561.html

Well worth getting up for at 0645 hrs in spite of the fact that "the master shot" was not to be had. Organisation very good, security very unobtrusive. Charlie made a witty speech (see Northern Echo website), there was a flypast by a Tornado and two other jets, and a band played. Us plebs on platform 10 got a wave from Camilla as the Royal Train pulled in and a wave from Charlie on the footplate as the train pulled out.

And now to find the money for a trip behind "Tornado".....

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 03:33 PM

Looks realy good. Anyone got any idea where it might be in the week of 28th March to 6Th April? We'll be off island and into the Selby area. I know it won't be at NRM.

Yes perhaps it should be,"Loco's make war, make trains instead".

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: HuwG
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:00 AM

Eric the Viking, may I assume that the Garratt in Manchester you are referring to is that in the Manchester Museum of Science and Technology?

If so, they are holding celebrations to mark the centenary of the Garratt; click here

Unfortunately, the Museum's exhibit will never run on the railway network in Britain; it was built for South African railways and has a 3' 6" gauge. I have stood on its footplate; all that could be seen ahead was the back of the water tank mounted on the leading engine.

Garratts were never really popular with railwaymen in Britain. See links for the LNER Class U1 and LMS Garratt.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: ced2
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:25 AM

There are a couple of working garratts on the northern end of the Welsh Highland. Although nominal 2ft gauge they are huge. They originally worked in southern Africa under the designation NG16. 2-6-0-0-6-2 wheel arrangement they were, alas, when I saw them oil fired. They dwarfed any genuine North Wales Narrow Gauge locos, the double Fairlies of the Ffestiniog or Russell of the WHR looking pretty small next to them . Equally impressive are the NG15s a more conventional locomotive at first sight but with a measure of articulation in the 8 driving wheels. The WHR(C) had one in the yard at Dinas and the WHR(P) one at Gelert's Farm... but in bits.. all over the place and they were trying to flog it. But as one local told me "They are not right they are much too big!"

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Phot
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 07:53 PM

You'r right Ced, those NG16s are a lot to big, but at least it's steam. A nice Manning Wardle 2-6-2T would look lovley there bach!

Wassail!! Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:14 PM

I hate to say it as a southerner, but they could build a broad gauge loco and some rolling stock.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:49 AM

http://www.clagmonster.fotopic.net/p56491561.html

You cannot copy and paste this picture from the website - but if you do Edit/select all/copy then paste to Excel, you can highlight the cells covering the area of the photo then copy and paste into Paint Shop Pro or similar, crop out the annoying text and save as a jpg.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Phot
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 02:34 AM

Eric, The GWS at Didcot have built a broad gauge Firefly, and stock to match, at the northern end of their site. Also the NRM has an Iron Duke which ventures out on the odd occasion.

Wassail!! Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: ced2
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 04:45 AM

Whilst Tornado was heading North from York for a weeks stay in Edinburgh Yesterday, it returns to York Sat 7th March, a far superior pacific, A4 60007 was heading south from York towards Birmingham. I went to Moorthorpe (on the old Swinton & Knottingley line) to be part of the backing group as in "Sir Nigel and the Gricers!!!" But Sods Law applied, just as the chime whistle sounded from the A4 on the "up line" a nodding donkey pulled into the "down" platform. However got a piccy! Now I'll await the howls from the A1 brigade!

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 03:42 PM

Thanks Chris. I am completely out of touch and a good distance from anywhere at the moment. I spent years working on the NYMR, p-way and guard and odd times on the bluebell but that was twenty five years ago. Been out of touch except for a quick read of steam railway or heritage railway magazine. I am how ever hoping to get moved to near Keith where there is a fledgling preservation group (Keith and Dufftown Railway) and thence back to exploring steam again. I might even get down as far as the mid hants, KESR and Bluebell again. It's 25 odd years since I was last at Didcot.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: GUEST,clagmonster
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 12:49 PM

You are quite right you can't copy and paste images from http://www.clagmonster.fotopic.net. I am the site's owner and as such I would like to state that images are in such a condition so they can be protected from fraudulent use.

Any queries should be directed to me via the gallery's messgae fuction.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: GUEST,JimMartin
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 07:27 AM

She was out again yesterday, appearing at York on the same day as 3 other main line steam locos - 60007,70013 & a Duchess. This must be a record!

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 07:59 AM

What a sight that must have been, did you take any photos?

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: GUEST,JimMartin
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 08:05 AM

No, I wasn't there unfortunately being many miles away in Ireland!

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 11:43 AM

Thanks for that Jim, this means that any second now several master shots should drop into my inbox - my friend Dick is on a mission!

By the way, the 1968 film about Flying Scotsman's non stop King's Cross-Edinburgh run is on the BBC Archive website (UK only I believe):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/steamtrains/7307.shtml?all=2&id=7307

Very good film. Features not only Alan Pegler, 4472's owner at the time, but also Wilbert Awdry and C Hamilton Ellis.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 02:49 PM

She's beautiful. I caught the picture of the lovely green loco and can see why she stimulates pride and enthusiasm.

I was young and alive for the last scheduled run of a steam loco in California. My parents made a film of my brother and I holding our little hands to our ears as the whistle blew.

Since then I've worked at a refinery in California which has been in place for over a hundred years. Their first distributed power was not in electric lines, but in steam lines. And steam had a deeply researched technology similar to electricity, I learned. While we electrical folk talk of voltage, resistance, and current, the steam people talk of pressure, water, and flow.

And the consequences of a fault are similar- BURNS!

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: pixieofdoom
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 07:26 PM

But they are a better class of burn! And we do talk of improved Stevensons link gear............

Wassail!! Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: nickp
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 06:11 AM

Beautiful. I was lucky enough to see her 3 times over the summer.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: ced2
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:23 AM

What has improved Stphenson's link got to do with Tornado?

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: pixieofdoom
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:31 AM

Sorry Ced2, I had my GWR head on!

Should have been Walsharts!

Wassail!! Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: ced2
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:33 AM

Absolutely!

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Phot
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 08:35 AM

Did anyone see the Top Gear race between Tornado, a Jaguar XK120, and a Vincent Black Shadow?

Wassail!! Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 06:59 PM

Yes, it was repeated last week. The write up May/June Steam Railway was interesting. I can imagine it was more than a pain to have Clarkson and film crew etc on the footplate. (especially after the debacle that was the race to Orkney by the hamster and james May) It may still be available on i player.

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Phot
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 06:43 AM

That sure was a very full footplate! And the look on Clarksons face when she slipped at 75mph was priceless! Mind you, I would have probably done the same!

Wassail!! Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Bainbo
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 01:35 PM

It crossed the Ribblehead Viaduct on the Settle to Carlisle line. What a photo!

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 03:47 PM

Would have loved to have seen that!!

Subject: RE: BS: Tornado!/Newly Built Class A1 Steam Loco
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 06:38 PM

100