BS: Phrases that don't travel

Subject: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:51 PM

In a current thread it came out in the course of conversation that where in England people would talk about a way of handwriting as "joined-up writing", Americans would be likely to say "cursive writing".

The consequence, if that's true, being that the common way we in the British Isles talk about "joined-up thinking" - or the lack of it (for example in the way the Iraq occupation was so badly bungled in the aftermath of the invasion) can't make much sense in America.

Similarly the expression "scoring an own goal" can't make that much sense in a non-football (soccer) culture.

And I'm sure there must be lots of other examples where that's true. True the other way also, except that we are so exposed to Americana on the TV that we tend to pick up that stuff by a process of osmosis. Less likely perhaps to be left stranded in mid-sentence wondering what the hell the other person is talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:15 PM

Yes. Yesterday I noted the phrase 'swap out'. What does that mean? In context it meant that they were either going to replace one with another or they were NOT going to. ??

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:19 PM

As noted in the other thread, neither 'joined-up' nor cursive would be common in American speech. People speak of hand-written notes or manuscripts. Cursive dates back to the 18th C., but it is found in manuals and books rather than in speech. Teachers would use it, but not to their pupils.

Terms from sports that are uncommon in North America of course would not appear in speech. I listen to the BBC News channel here and when the sports reporter announces cricket results, I am completely lost.

Soccer is now popular in schools, esp. with younger children, but they may not know the lingo used in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM

In Oz, if not just saying 'handwriting', one might see 'cursive'...

"when the sports reporter announces cricket results, I am completely lost."

There is a version of cricket - now popularized as 'Beach Cricket' and also a slightly different form called 'Indoor Cricket' based on an old backyard variant called 'tip and run' or 'hit and run', where if you hit the ball you must run - sorta like baseball with a different shaped field ... :-)


Typo detected "There is a version of fricket" ... yeah, ... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:46 PM

Swap in and swap out-
In data handling, when set of paged data sets are moved to auxilliary storage to real storage during execution of any job is called swap-in, The reverse is swap-out.
Or the two phrases mean transfer of the whole content from main memory to virtual memory and vice-versa.

Found in computer-speak. No, I didn't know either until I looked it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:48 PM

hmmm.. well, *I* have heard 'cursive' used often, since I did go to college and hung out with pretty well educated folks. I also heard 'handwriting' used to mean almost the same thing by almost everyone.

Oh, and "scoring an own goal" is quite well understood by now by anyone who watches soccer at all.

One thing, Kevin... I see an amazing number of TV programs here featuring English/UK (and Irish) actors and speech patterns & pronunciation. Comedy, drama...and science-wildlife documentaries are common...some with accents so pronounced that they distract me from the topic. I'm not sure who influences whom the most, but I do noticed how 'generally' reluctant most people are to change the way they say or do things from the way they learned in childhood.


"Swap out" almost always means 'take out one and put in another'. This 'usually' means an identical part, but can mean an upgrade.


I have watched documentaries where comments from both Brits and Yanks were edited in, with each pronouncing 'al-you-MIN-e-um' or 'PITza" (pizza) in their own way....sometimes at the same table. There's no 'right' way to spell or say something, but I do wish that more effort was made to tailor programs to the audience who will hear it.(that is, have the background announcer overdubbed, even when participants are using a language or accent that is hard to follow).

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Amergin
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:53 PM

I found that phrases will travel a long way if your voice is loud enough....

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:55 PM

Not me. I love to hear the different pronunciations and accents and would find it boring if they were all tailored for the audience.

"Cursive" has been used wherever I've been since I can remember, between teacher and students and elsewhere. I do say my handwriting sucks, but I mean that about ALL of my handwriting which comes out a combo of print and cursive looking like some kinda crazy chickenscratch, even though I know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:00 PM

I agree- 'cursive' is very commonly used. It is not a high brow elitist word...

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:02 PM

Swap out has earlier roots before memory swaps, as in swapping out a burned out carb for a Hollis dual-barrel on a hot-rod in the 50's.

And cursive was well-known and widely used in common parlance in my part of New England in the same period.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:20 PM

My point in the example was that, if you don't say "joined-up" in relation to writing, they won't be likely to be sure what "joined-up" means when it comes to thinking.

Another example might be, in a place where all the cars are automatic, imagery about "getting stuck in first gear" and so forth can't convey too much.

And the same kind of thing is liable to happen over time - if we all end up wearing foot gear with velcro fastening, phrases involving bootlaces would be marooned.

I'm sure there are lots of examples of that having happened, where we still use the terms,but with no idea of what they actually refer to.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:29 PM

script
cursive
hand writing
Those are all terms used here for the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:38 PM

Except they don't actually mean the same thing. Handwriting quite often isn't cursive/joined up.

But this is drift in this particular thread, as opposed to this thread - BS: Cursive writing outdated?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:40 PM

I remember "First Down" magazine referring to NFL coaches receiving their P45s, which I always assumed was inaccurate as the P45 is a specific Inland Revenue document in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:09 PM

That reminds me of another - we (in the UK) still use the expression "MOT", both in respect of car roadworthiness tests, and also metaphorically - "get a medical MOT". But of course there hasn't been a "Ministry of Transport for years. And I assume that when we use it to most Americans, they can't have a clue what we mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:10 PM

knock me up in the morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:26 PM

"knock me up in the morning."
Druther not; I dislike inuendos.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:33 PM

No, I'd have no idea what MOT means out of context.,,,but we have similar phrases...

"..., if you don't say "joined-up" in relation to writing,..."
...well, it can fairly easily explained with a little effort, if required. I react to 'joined-up' as a very NON technical phrase instead of a formal description. If I was designing a curriculum, I'd formally define the idea with a single word LIKE script or cursive, just because if has a more formal, official sound to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:47 PM

A word that I've come across in a book by a British writer that baffles me is "cor". Can anyone translate?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 09:02 PM

"Cor Blimey!" (or Gor Blimey!) is derived from the middle ages expression "God, Blind Me!", used as an exclamation of surprise
You may also hear "cor, love a duck!" :)

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:00 PM

"joined up"? Rather redundant, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Tangledwood
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:03 PM

I'm sure there are lots of examples of that having happened, where we still use the terms,but with no idea of what they actually refer to.

There's an ideal opportunity to put in your two bobs worth.
Do young folk know why we "dial-a-pizza*"
* or other commodity for home delivery
Do they know which way clockwise and anticlockwise are?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:11 PM

"cor blimey" is a bit like "gee whiz!", but with lots less history.

"Do they know which way clockwise and anticlockwise are?"

I actually know about 'widdershins'

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Janie
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:30 PM

I agree, Kevin.    Now, think of all the concepts people don't get when they are from entirely different cultures with intirely different native languages. Really helps me appreciate how challenging it is to be an interpreter.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:58 PM

Clockwise and counter-clockwise
"I knocked her up" in the US would mean you get someone pregnant.
"Under the bonnet" in the States would be "under the hood".
"Putting in the boot" has little or no meaning over here, but kicking in the balls does.
"Pissed" means irritated/angry, not drunk.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Janie
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 11:11 PM

Makes sense. One won't catch a metaphor if one doesn't know the original context.

Here in the States, "joined-up" is most likely to used to convey that one has enthusiastically "signed-up or signed onto" something, probably stemming from times of patriotic fervor involving war or the threat thereof, when young men rushed to "join-up" into the military.

The USA is so big there are also regional phrases that, while they may travel, don't do so without some thought or explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: LadyJean
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:24 AM

I had a lot of fun telling friends I'd brought them rubbers from England, with pictures of Andy and Fergie on them, since it was the summer they were married.

They were surprised to get erasers.

Not as surprised as the Oxford don, when I told him we wore jumpers to school all year round. What we wore, I'm told, are known in England as gym slips.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:36 AM

>"Pissed" means irritated/angry, not drunk.<

Our UK equivalent for irritated/angry is "pissed off". We often thus add a preposition to modify the meaning of a word ~ as in "joined up", as queried by one of you-over-there above.

A "jumper" here is a sweater or pullover, not a gym-slip.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:51 AM

"I knocked her up" in the US would mean you get someone pregnant.

Same here in Australia - I blame the WWII US Forces .... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 01:06 AM

I assume that "elevenses" is self explanatory, but do any people other than English and recent colonies really understand "tea-time" or "afternoon tea" - or indeed "tiffin-time"?

And what about Belisha beacons?

And I think a "four-way-stop-street" is unique to South Africa.

Legendarily Jowett cars used to use an advertising slogan "Built like a battleship" which was conceptually alien to the French.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 01:32 AM

I assume that "elevenses" is self explanatory

Not really. Is it a snooty block on a long street? An hour of the day starting with 11:00 and ending with 11:59? I think it means a meal, but I'm not sure of it, and it's far from self-explanatory.

I have been using "cursive" to mean, well, cursive, since 2nd grade (that would be ... um ... 1968-69, I think).

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 02:02 AM

OK, I've recently learned what "joined-up writing" is, but I still don't understand "joined-up thinking." Is it a good way or a bad way to think?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 02:34 AM

""joined-up thinking." Is it a good way or a bad way to think? "

Depends whether you mean it in a positive or negative way .... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Hrothgar
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:09 AM

Hmmm, Foolestroupe, surely you've heard "knocked up" in the sense of "very weary" or "exhausted"?

As in the poem

"He was driving Irish tandem, but perhaps I speak at random -
"I'd forgotten for the moment that you're not all mulga bred -
"That means he had his swag up through having knocked his horse up"

It can also mean brought them to the door by knocking on it.

And why doesn't this spell checker like "mulga"?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:14 AM

which came first?

The British phrase "Bless her/his cotton socks."

Or the south eastern US phrase "Bless her/his heart."

Both often delivered with intonation that really does not mean to "bless" at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:59 AM

Elevenses is a cup of coffee accompanied by a dry (not cream) biscuit taken at 11 am.

Afternoon tea is a cup of tea accompanied by bread and jam (probably damson jam or crab-apple jelly or gooseberry jam or jelly, not anything common like strawberry) and possibly some cake, taken at 4 pm.

How about "hit for 6" - or a "yorker" - or "that's got me stumped" - or "bowled a maiden over" - or "out for a duck".   I think "hat-trick" has become universal.

Is "levanter" (of a damp foggy easterly wind) known outside Gibraltar and southern Spain?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Anne Lister
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:09 AM

Tam, these days round here at least it's very simply just "aw, bless". Often used to describe a winsome but hapless child or adult.

I hope it was an ironic comment that "cor blimey" had less history than "gee whizz". My historic husband (that is, husband who is fascinated by history) was talking last night about the history of swearing. You could be in major trouble in past eras for blaspheming but not necessarily for sexually explicit language ... so "Cor blimey" was a necessary disguise. Today we've gone entirely the other way, so the F word and the C word are far more unacceptable generally than any way of invoking the deity.

"Script" and "handwriting" aren't necessarily forms of joined-up writing, at least as used here in the UK.

And, as it hasn't been clarified yet, "joined-up thinking" refers to ideas that actually connect with each other, so that reformers/politicians/teachers/managers actually work out how one innovation might affect another process. If only they would.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:33 AM

'For God's sake shut yer gob and let yer ass ave a chance' I've heard many a Bristolian say but doesn't travel well.

'You can't educate pork' when someone does something really stupid or says something really ridiculous.

On the Bank Holiday weekend I travel with my Isle of Wight pal through Gloucester, Herefordshire, Brecon through to Swansea and back to Bristol. At the end of it I said 'God my backside is making buttons yer' meaning 'It has been such a long journey and my backside is numb.' I had to repeat what I had said to him so he could get the gist of what I was saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:36 AM

Richard ~~ How many over here could explain the origin of Belisha Beacon, do you think?

To knock-up here also means to wake up in the morning, especially by knocking on the door or window. Northern English industrial town councils in the 19C-early20C used to employ a man who would go around working-class areas at about 5·30 a.m. with a long pole with which he would knock on the front upstairs windows to 'knock-up' the fathers of the families, who would sleep in the front or 'best' bedroom, and would soon after have to leave for work. This official was actually called 'the knocker-up', or sometimes, colloquially, the 'knocker-upper'.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Michael
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:47 AM

Joined-up writing = cursive writing. Joined-up thinking = cursive thinking? Probably not,probably the opposite in fact.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 06:43 AM

Joined-up writing just means that it avoids too many non-sequiturs do it's the logic that joins up.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: JennieG
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 07:47 AM

We called it "running writing" as distinct from "printing", i.e. writing in block letters.

Don't forget the term "cracked record"......."he went on and on like a cracked record".......it meant something in the days of 78rpms and even LPs, but not in this age of mp3s.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 08:41 AM

...let yer ass 'ave a chance

In Bristol, as in the rest of the British Isles, when written like that this would mean "give your donkey a turn".

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 10:45 AM

A "four-way-stop street" is certainly used in the US. It simply means that everybody at an intersection must stop before proceeding.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 10:57 AM

Let's see:

"Four-way-stop-street" is used in the US.

We now have "roundabouts" here, but the local drivers call them other names which are not for polite society.

"He's a whiz" is a usually a compliment, but "whizzing" is best done in the toilet and not the living room, unless you're talking about a flying toy whizzing around. The child playing with the toy could also be whizzing around, but you'd want to check to make sure s/he is dry.

A police officer arrests you or tickets you; if a cop nicks you you shouldn't have made s/he draw and fire his/her weapon and you should feel good that s/he wasn't a good shot. And you're lodged in jail, not gaol, after being taken to THE hospital, not just TO hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 11:08 AM

"I hope it was an ironic comment that "cor blimey" had less history than "gee whizz"."

ummmm...that was more of a hurried, poorly worded comment...Of course 'cor blimey' has the history. "Gee whiz" is just a recent Americanism...and not 'cool' to use among kids anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:03 PM

Gee whiz is not cool any more?

It wasn't cool when I was a younker, say 1940 to 1950.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:30 PM

Hummppff! *I* use it now & then...and it seems to carry it's own built-in context. Even those who barely recognize it get the meaning.

Golly gee whillickers!

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 01:52 PM

Gee whiz, that's sad. Golly gee, I bet it's because of those darned moving pichers!

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 02:07 PM

Quite a few references to the old money (UK) have survived. It's still common to hear "He's worth a few bob", or "Daft 'aporth"; and "Sing a Song of Sixpence" survives.