BS: Christian Persecution

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 04:18 AM

And there was me thinking religion was made up.....

If you are too lazy to find information before commenting or too ashamed to acknowledge it, that isn't my problem.

I repeat. Are there any Christians who would like to put their perspective to this debate? The one battling at present is a busted flush and is doing the creed no favours.

I can't spell Norwegian. Sorry about that. Really am.

You have no idea how fucking sorry I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 06:51 AM

Still puzzled. What you wrote there Jim still seems to be consistent with what I referred to as seeing a certain tendency towards racism as having some basis in British culture, of which the imperial past is still a significant element.

And the pont I was making was, whether it valid to see British culture as a factor in racism in this country or not, to suggest that it is should not be seen as an offensive attack on British people, or as asserting that most of them are racist. And it seems to me that the same holds true in principle where it is suggested that Pakistani culture might be a factor in the deviant behaviour of some people from that background. Or for that matter in any other behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 07:45 AM

'Dirty' Christians Now Afraid to Clean
By Ashfaq Yusufzai
Inter Press Service News Agency

PESHAWAR, Pakistan, Oct 23 2013 (IPS) - Like most Christians in Pakistan, Johar Maseeh did a little cleaning job. He was a sweeper in a factory in Peshawar, capital of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province in northern Pakistan.

He was among the many killed in a bomb attack on the All Saints Church in Peshawar last month. He was also among the hundreds of thousands of Christians in Pakistan considered filthy by large numbers of the majority Muslims for doing such a cleaning job.

"Nobody is ready to shake hands with Christians," local tailor Rafiq Maseeh told IPS. "Literally, they are treated as an untouchable community." He said he had many Muslim customers but the majority were unwilling to talk to him.

"The majority of the Christian population is concentrated in Peshawar because they are afraid to live in rural areas due to reprisals by the local population."
"Nobody is ready to shake hands with Christians. They are treated as an untouchable community."

Vast numbers of Christians live in utter poverty in slums where they lack water, sanitation and health facilities. "We live in a two-room mud and brick house which has too little space to accommodate our 10-member family," Javid Pyara a sweeper at the University of Peshawar, told IPS.

Such as they are, they are often considered agents of the West.

"Whenever incidents of blasphemy take place anywhere in the world, the Christians in Pakistan bear the brunt," advocate Shamshad Khan told IPS. Last year, a church was burnt in nearby Mardan when riots erupted following the production of a blasphemous film by a U.S. filmmaker.

"People see Christians as non-Muslim and don't like them," he said.

The constitution of Pakistan bars Christians from the positions of president or prime minister. "They have been allotted one percent seats in the provincial and national assemblies but that doesn't mean that they are part of the country's politics," Shamshad Khan said.

"Many of the people don't want a handshake with the Christians," he said. "None in Pakistan would like to share food with them."

The only hope for many is to see their young lead a better life. "There is now a trend among young Christians to get education and get well-paid jobs. They are unwilling to take up cleaning jobs," 60-year-old Bhuta Maseeh, a sweeper in a government office, told IPS.

"I have graduated from a local college and now I am a cashier in a bank," his son Akram Maseeh told IPS. "About a dozen of my friends have also found good and lucrative jobs because they had got university education."

Many young Christians do see a better future than their parents have known. "We have Muslim friends. We sit together, eat together and discuss politics and other matters together. We respect one another," Mukhtiar Maseeh, a sweeper's son and a student of Islamia College in Peshawar, told IPS.

"Most Christian girls join nursing because the local girls don't," said local resident Jalal Maseeh. "They also get jobs as teachers in private and also government-run schools."

Now that move towards better living is shaken. The devastating suicide attack at the All Saints Church in militancy-stricken Peshawar has led to renewed fear among the poor Christian community. The bombing left 85 dead and 140 injured.

About 100,000 Christians living in Peshawar now struggle with terrorist threats after the fight to find acceptance and a decent living.

"We have no protection at all. The terrorists have diverted their guns towards us. We need tight security measures," Jamil Maseeh, 29, who was injured in the Sep. 22 attack, told IPS.

Muhammad Karim, a Peshawar-based religious scholar, said the attack aimed to create a rift between Muslims and Christians. "We should be thankful to the Christians because they are cleaning our hospitals, offices and markets. We must not harm them as they serve our people. Our religion Islam also advocates living in peace with non-Muslims."

"It is extremely shocking and shameful that we are unable to protect minorities," Maulana Tahir Ashrafi, chairman of the Ulema Council, told IPS. "According to the holy prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, it is the duty of the state to protect the places of worship of non-Muslims."

But friction with orthodox Muslims is a constant danger. "Relations between churches and mosques are not as cordial as they should be," Maulana Zafar Gul, a Muslim scholar, told IPS. He said the majority of Muslim clerics oppose churches but keep silent due to government and international pressure.

"We already lead miserable lives in Pakistan," chairman of the Pakistan Minority Movement Saleem Grabble told IPS. "Our people have been doing cleaning jobs on meagre wages. Now terror attacks are trying to eliminate us physically."

The latest attack against Christians was aimed at drawing international attention at a time when the government is determined to hold a dialogue with the Taliban, said Sawar Shah, a Lahore-based political science teacher. "Terrorists have been targeting mosques, the Shia community, funeral ceremonies, schools, marketplaces and government buildings to express their anger over Pakistan's role in war against terrorism."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 07:52 AM

Musket.
If you are too lazy to find information before commenting or too ashamed to acknowledge

I am not.
You made that up too.
I tried but failed to find that Independent piece.
I should not have to search.
It is your evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 08:28 AM

This is discussion. I am on a phone, and posting links isn't easy. In debate with anyone else, people comment on the content of the post. You are supposed to comment on what I write, not my source. This is not a viva. I take it on the chin that you quote ( both in and out of context) from sources other than in your head, and you should afford others the same courtesy rather than name calling and denigrating.

My sources are genuine, and my Athens access allows me quick access to reliable checked sources, rather than whatever Google throws up. If you can't access some of it, that is not my issue. Name calling and accusations of making things up negates the possibility of meaningful discussion with you.

I repeat.

Are there any people out there who could give a credible Christian perspective on this issue? (I said credible, pete....). Only our resident boutique Christian has lost all vestiges of credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 09:13 AM

So, Bobad: why don't they simply adopt Keith's solution and just leave? Problem sorted.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 09:25 AM

Christians are indeed being driven from their homelands Greg.
Those not actually killed.
It must all make you very happy.

More Musket balls!
I DO comment on what you say.
I tell you it is not true and ask you where it came from.

I understand that you are at a disadvantage trying to debate on a phone.
I was not having a go about the name spelling, just letting you know I was looking for the right person.
Google let us down.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 10:25 AM

Musket balls helped shape a few countries and settle more wars than religions started.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 10:50 AM

"It must all make you very happy."
You are the only one here who has ever advocated or defended the persecution of any religion - you have even indulged in it yourself
Statements like yours (wherever you have claimed to got them from) continue to make the existence of entire communities miserable and dangerous.
Suggesting that Muslims are somehow perverts because of their culture - you now freely admit this though you lie in an attempt to involve others, make it impossible for ordinary law abiding people to go about their daily existence, putting their well-being, safety, and even their lives in danger from thugs who share your views.
Perhaps you might lay off accusing people of what you are indulging in yourself, and have done for a very long time.
"Still puzzled. What you wrote there Jim still seems to be consistent with what I referred to as seeing a certain tendency towards racism as having some basis in British culture, of which the imperial past is still a significant element. "
You have read what I think; to put it as simple as I am able;
Racism is the product of the unease and distrust created by racist thugs like Keith, the BNP and the sewer press.
It has nothing whatever to do with British culture, which in fact has evolved to reject racism, even to the position of building in laws to prevent the twisted people who would play on the insecurities of society.
Britain's Imperial past is just that - its past, and no more relevant than bear-baiting or hanging people.
You are either being extremely obtuse or are in the process of developing your own agenda based on twisting what others have to say - the Keith disease.
Kindly reaspond to what I have written rather than what you appear to want me to have written.
I did not "assert British people are racist; I said I witnessed a great deal of racism from having lived in three major cities, - one third of those surveyed have admitted they are - perhaps you might like to address those facts instead of beating about the bush.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 01:02 PM

"You are the only one here who has ever advocated or defended the persecution of any religion"

Not actually true, Jim. At no time has Keith ever said anything like that, so far as I am aware. On the other hand there have been several posts by at least one person in this thread saying that persecution of Christians is something to be expected and indeed welcomed.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 01:33 PM

there have been several posts by at least one person in this thread saying that persecution of Christians is something to be expected and indeed welcomed.

Give it up Kevin - in addition to misquotation, you are apparently intellectually incapable of recognizing sarcasm when you see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 01:44 PM

" At no time has Keith ever said anything like that, so far as I am aware"
Then you need your awareness sensors re-tuned Mac - I repeat
"Suggesting that Muslims are somehow perverts because of their culture - you now freely admit this though you lie in an attempt to involve others, make it impossible for ordinary law abiding people to go about their daily existence, putting their well-being, safety, and even their lives in danger from thugs who share your views.
Perhaps you might lay off accusing people of what you are indulging in yourself, and have done for a very long time.
Don't you consider branding all Pakistanis potential perverts persecution? (what a wonderful piece of alliteration).
Keith has done this regulary for several years and has confirmed it on this thread.
The fact that he has invented invisible friends who told him to say it - it is his opinion and he has confirmed it here.
Pay attention Mac
You seem to have taken over thoe role of his previous genii in a bottle.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 02:44 PM

Not only has Greg "advocated or defended the persecution of any religion" but you Jim said that you could see nothing wrong with it!

He now claims he did not mean it.
How about you Jim?

The view that the offending derived from the culture did not and could not come from me.
I know nothing about it and do not care why they do it anyway.
I just said that I believed it, as I might a doctor's diagnosis or a weather forecast or a surveyor's report.

That does not make me a bad person.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:01 PM

""Still puzzled. What you wrote there Jim still seems to be consistent with what I referred to as seeing a certain tendency towards racism as having some basis in British culture, of which the imperial past is still a significant element.""

Since 30% of those surveyed effectively agreed with Jim, that would seem to be case proven MGoH.

The other protagonist in this circus is not the reasonable and thoughtful character he presents for our responses, which is why I no longer respond to him.

As the people whose opinions he cites also warned that no cultural implications should be drawn, his belief in their credibility seems somewhat variable.

The parts of their expressed opinions which he selects for belief, or non belief, would seem to suggest an obvious agenda to present a more than somewhat biased view.

An agenda which would not be served by recognition of the fact that the miscreants were acting so far outside of the boundaries set by their culture, that said culture was most obviously not driving their actions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:11 PM

Jim, I have looked back.
You did not say there was nothing wrong with Greg's statements, but you did refuse to condemn them.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:18 PM

Don,
The other protagonist in this circus is not the reasonable and thoughtful character he presents for our responses, which is why I no longer respond to him.

I am a reasonable and thoughtful character.
You stopped responding to me because I caught you out in a lie.

As the people whose opinions he cites also warned that no cultural implications should be drawn,

Huh?
They all specifically stated that the offending derived from aspects of the culture!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:30 PM

" I might a doctor's diagnosis or a weather forecast or a surveyor's report."
Are you completely insane?
You have invented claims by of statements by a couple of obscure journalists, a couple of politicians and a social worker and you compare their/your invented words to a doctor.
"That does not make me a bad person."
You lie, you make horrendous claims about an entire ethnic communities, you persistently misrepresent what people have said, you show no knowledge whatever of the subjects you continue to dominate with your extremism, at one time your sole input was entirely made up of carefully selected and sometimes doctored cut-'n-pastes, now you have become even to lazy to do that, you contradict people whose lives have been taken up with these subjects, you call us liars, you scurry behind your own ignorance "I'm no expert"....
You now are finally corned into supporting an extremist fascist site.   
Why are you here Keith if you are not going to show some genuine interest in these subjects and show some respect for those who already do?
Your behaviour is totally unacceptable and it's destroying this forum for those of us who take these things seriously and take a genuine interest in them.
You are not a bad person Keith , you are thoroughly evil individual who seems to take pleasure in inflicting harm and discomfort on others.
Behave like a half-decent human being and stop inflicting damage on a good forum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 04:41 PM

a couple of obscure journalists, a couple of politicians and a social worker
Jasmim Alibhai-Brown.
Lord Ahmed.
Jack Straw.
Mohamed Shafiq.
Anne Cryer.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 05:06 PM

'...the people whose opinions he cites also warned that no cultural implications should be drawn...'
.,,.

Oh, 4·gods·sake Don; not back to the delectable Miss Rice-Davies YET AGAIN!...

Oh shut up for christs sake michael -- what's the bloody use of arguing with these hidebound dogooding ½witz...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 05:48 PM

Greg "advocated or defended the persecution of any religion"...
He now claims he did not mean it.

Jesus wept.

Keith, get a brain, already. There must be a good used one on the market somewhere at a reasonable price, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 06:00 PM

So did you mean what you said in those posts Greg?
No irony please.
No sarcasm please.
Did you mean what you said in those posts Greg?
A straight yes or no please.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 06:05 PM

Keith has one for sale.

One previous owner. Hardly used, low mileage. £5.00 ono.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 10:19 PM

I can't see how anything Jim quoted there from Keith could be reasonably said to be advocating or defending the persecution of any religion. That is not an accusation that should be thrown at anyone without being able to point at specific and unambiguous words or actions which do that.

Greg's words on the other hand did in fact do precisely that in respect of Christians. He now suggests that they were sarcasm. However they did not read in their context as sarcasm or irony. Possibly they might have been a kind of exaggeration of what he actually believes, which isn't at all the same thing. I hazard that rather than actually welcoming murderous persecution of the wrong kind of religious minority he just doesn't think it is a matter of any significance.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:26 AM

I can't see how anything Jim quoted there from Keith could be reasonably said to be advocating or defending the persecution of any religion"
Then explain his behaviour
Explain how branding an entire culture with 'The mark of Cain' by claiming that they are implanted sex criminals cannot be considered "persecution"
That is what Keith claimed and what he continues to claim here.
It is his sole input into every single discussion we have ever had on Muslims on this forum.
You want top know what persecution is - put yourself in the position of families who such an accusation is aimed at, the shopkeepers who have their premises vandalised with graffiti and their windows broken, those who have had shit and petrol poured through their letter-boxes.
The mothers afraid for the safety of their children who often have to run a gauntlet of spitting and jeering fellow-students each time some religious nutter takes it into his head to plant a bomb somewhere.
Keith's language is the language of hate and persecution - it is the same type of statement that packed off six million Jews to the gas chambers, and would have sent every other Jew in existence there had the war gone differently.
If you want to justify that statement Mac, please do, and join Keith in his campaign - otherwise, explain why it is not persecution, instead of waffling about life a wandering ghost muttering "I can't see...." - get yourself some glasses if you are having trouble with your eyesight.
If you think is behaviour explain why he won't tell us what his "imaginary friends" actually said instead of waving about a bunch of names of people who said nothing of the sort and who, on the contrary, said that it is dangerous to draw any conclusion whatever from the little knowledge we do know of the few cases of underage sex that have involved Muslims.
Why won't he just point out one single ne of the people who has ever suggested that the entire Muslim culture is infected with a tendency towards sexual criminality - I'll tell you why - because none of them have ever said it and none of them would ever have dared to for fear of losing their jobs and for fear of being prosecuted under Britain's hate laws, that's why!!!
What's it to be Mac - is he right in what he said, is claiming all Muslims to be culturally implanted both justified and in the best interests of the Muslim people in Britain
Or is it a statement aimed at making the lives of every single one of those people miserable and extremely dangerous - DECISION TIME.
Jasmim Alibhai-Brown.
"Lord Ahmed, Jack Straw, Mohamed Shafiq, Anne Cryer"
What did they say Keith? - not your bigoted summing up - what did they actually say, where did they say it, and why are they still working and not banged up for inciting extreme hatred?
Quotes and links to their quotes please - not doctored by you, but actual, real-life opinions of these people you keep hiding behind
WHAT DID THEY ACTUALLY SAY???
Once you have provided that, we can then make a start on why the opinions of four relatively obscure people (apart from Jack Straw) should be taken on such a fundamental matter, of police, judiciary, researchers, politicians, social workers, human rights bodies...., even the British Prime Minister, all who have, at one time or another warned against linking the behaviour of a handful of Muslim extremists and fanatics with the general behaviour of the Muslim population of Britain.
There - you both have your starters for ten....
Jim Carroll
   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:39 AM

claiming that they are implanted sex criminals cannot be considered "persecution"
That is what Keith claimed and what he continues to claim here.

I have never claimed any such thing, and stated repeatedly that it was not an issue of Islam.

What they said was that the offending derived from a contempt for females and for Western females in particular, unhappy arranged marriages and disaproval of any relationships between the sexes outside of marriage.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:44 AM

Huffington Post 8May 2012

Mr Shafiq said: "There is a significant problem for the British Pakistani community, there is an over-representation amongst recent convictions in the crime of on-street grooming, there should be no silence in addressing the issue of race as this is central to the actions of these criminals.

"They think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a second thought; it is this sort of behaviour that is bringing shame on our community.

"I urge the police and the councils not to be frightened to address this issue, there is a strong lesson that you cannot ignore race or be over sensitive."

He added: "I have been overwhelmed by the support the Ramadhan Foundation has been given by young people for our campaign on child grooming

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:49 AM

By Yasmin Alibhai-brown

Britain's first Muslim peer has linked unhappy arranged marriages to the grooming of girls by Asian gangs. His courage to speak out should be applauded, not vilified.

This week, a Muslim peer broke the code of silence that pervades British-Asian communities and spoke out against the criminal practice of forced marriages.

He starkly stated that there was a connection between forced marriages and the Pakistani gangs in the north of England convicted last month of entrapping and grooming young, often white, girls for sex.

He said that British-born Pakistani men are too often forced into loveless marriages with cousins from abroad and suggested this encouraged them to seek out these young girls.

It was time, he told the British Muslim community, to look more closely at the underlying causes of the crimes committed by such grooming gangs. Time for Muslims to do more to promote UK-based marriages.

For giving an honest, informed and heartfelt opinion, Lord Ahmed of Rotherham has been assailed, abused and ripped apart by the religious and cultural guardians of those communities in a reaction that has been utterly disgraceful.

So let me say loud and clear that the coerced marriages Lord Ahmed is talking about are inhuman. Those parents who enforce them claim they are legitimate and say they provide the only way to ensure their young remain linked to extended family networks and prevent them becoming 'westernised'.

We have all heard the dreadful tales of young girls and women handed over to cousins in Pakistan or to men they have never seen in Bangladesh and India.

The problem is most widespread among Muslims, though a considerable number of Sikh families also believe their daughters should accept, without protest, husbands who are chosen for them.
Courageous: Lord Ahmed has broken the silence surrounding arranged marriages but has been abused for his honesty

http://www.sacw.net/article1945.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:52 AM

But when I ask myself was a greater crime committed by the Asian molesters, the honest answer has to be yes. Conscientious Asian community activists in Derby have said that these criminal acts were nothing to do with race or religion. The perpetrators were bad men who did terrible things. That is surely self-delusion or a cover-up.

The official inquiry into the case concluded that the care agencies were ill-equipped to deal with the scale of the abuse being perpetrated by the gang. But it also concluded that there needs to be an honest national conversation about how exploitation in some places intersects with "culture, ethnicity and identity".

Let's begin then. Because without such an open conversation, prejudices fester and millions of Britons come to believe that serious offenders from certain ethnic and religious groups have protected status within our country.

The Cornwall and Derby villains who used girls as sex toys believed that their victims had "asked for it", which in our permissive age is an easy excuse. Very young girls are sexualised in the social environment, so paedophiles must feel they are only helping themselves to the goodies that are on offer. But in the case of the Asian men, disgusting cultural beliefs further validate their acts and their uncontrollable lechery is, in part, a symptom of repressed sexuality and sick attitudes.

Most Asian men do not go around raping young white girls and women; many have happy and equal relationships with white partners. However, an alarming number of Asian individuals, families and communities do believe that white females have no morals, are free and available, deserving of no respect or protection.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-asian-men-white-women-and-a-taboo-that-must-be-broken-2146251.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:57 AM

The reason I (Alibhai-Brown) feel compelled to write about these particular groomers and rapists is because I am Asian, and I know how their repugnant activities are rebounding on all of us and on good Asian men.
The internet is rife with horrifying stories about such gangs. They are a mix of fact and fiction. More dangerously still, the British public is starting to think that we Asians hide and excuse the child rapists — and, that way, we all become sinners.
Every Asian and Muslim I know, including some imams, want these monsters exposed, named and put away.
But not all of them, I admit, want to delve deeper and confront some of the values that drive such men to prey on white females.
This is where it gets tricky. It is easy to loathe the abusers, but much harder to ask what it is about some Asian cultural assumptions that make the paedophiles feel no guilt or shame about what they do.
Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Lancashire-based Ramadhan Foundation, a charity working for ethnic harmony, has warned: 'The police are over-cautious because they fear being branded racist'
Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Lancashire-based Ramadhan Foundation, a charity working for ethnic harmony, has warned: 'The police are over-cautious because they fear being branded racist'

Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Lancashire-based Ramadhan Foundation, a charity working for ethnic harmony, has warned: 'The police are over-cautious because they fear being branded racist'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2236081/Why-Muslim-mother-I-believe-damaging-hide-truth-Asian-sex-gangs.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:02 AM

There it might have ended but for Jack Straw, who rekindled passions on all sides when he said that such Pakistani men thought these females were easy meat who deserved no respect or consideration
...
But I still say we need to expose and discuss more openly the underpinning values of the Asian criminal rings in many of our cities. If we don't, the evil will grow. Fear of racism should no longer be the veil covering up hard truths. What the Derby gang did has planted and raised more racism – possibly even among good, benign people – than my words ever could. I am sure recruitment to extremist parties has gone up too. Prominent anti-racists know that, but will not openly say so.

The criminals feel they did no wrong. These girls to them are trash, asking to be wasted – unlike their own women, who must be kept from the disorderly world out there
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhai-brown-jack-straw-is-right-to-ask-hard-questions-about-asian-men-2180318.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:13 AM

Guardian 18May 2012
But Warsi, who is Muslim, told the London Evening Standard newspaper: "There is a small minority of Pakistani men who believe that white girls are fair game. And we have to be prepared to say that. You can only start solving a problem if you acknowledge it first.

"This small minority who see women as second-class citizens, and white women probably as third-class citizens, are to be spoken out against."

Britain's most senior Muslim politician said she had decided to speak out after her father, who moved to the UK from Punjab, told her she should be "out there condemning [the crime] as loudly as you could".

"In mosque after mosque, this should be raised as an issue so that anybody remotely involved should start to feel that the community is turning on them," Warsi said. "Communities have a responsibility to stand up and say: 'This is wrong, this will not be tolerated'."

She urged the authorities to have the confidence to tackle allegations involving minorities. "Cultural sensitivity should never be a bar to applying the law," Warsi added.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 06:21 AM

Nowhere do any of these exampled (unlinked and unqualified) link the entire Muslim population with either sex crimes or terrorist violence - as you have persistently done.
Nowhere does anybody suggest a Muslim population suppressing a cultural urge to have sex with underage women - as you have done.
Nowhere is there one single suggestion that somewhere lurking in the Muslim culture an aspect that inclines all Muslim males to criminal rape of underage women - that is your argument, pure and simple.
Nowhere have you included the statements of all of them that no conclusions can be drawn from the few figures we have and it would be utterly wrong to to do so - that is exactly what you have done.
Nowhere is there any evidence of "over-representation of anything other than law-abiding behaviour in the million strong Muslim population in Britain - you have painted each and every one of them as potention sexual perverts suppressing their perversions.
Your examples, the few that there are, are not from the people you claim back your sick statement
GIVE US ONE SINGLE QUOTE FROM ONE SINGLE 'WITNESS' WHO HAS EVER ATTEMPTRD TO LINK THE ENTIRE PAKISTANI POPULATION WITH SEXUAL CRIMINALITY'
This is what you have persistently done, and failure to back upo your claims makes you not only a liar, but also a rabid racist who invents horrific scenarios to smear a large British immigrant population.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 06:24 AM

Note what Baroness Warsi said
"This small minority who see women as second-class citizens, and white women probably as third-class citizens, are to be spoken out against."

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 07:33 AM

I always said "tiny minority."

The quotes are of Alibhai-Brown, Mohamed Shafiq, Lord Ahmed and Baroness Warsi who were my original sources along with Cryer and Straw.

Each quote links the offending to the culture.
Culture affects everyone to some extent.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 08:08 AM

An example of a minority Muslim community suffering.

BBC today.
Burmese opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi has blamed what she described as a "climate of fear" for exacerbating tensions between Muslims and Buddhists.

Asked about the fate of 140,000 Muslims who have been forced to leave their homes, she said that many Buddhists had also fled Burma, also known as Myanmar.

Ms Suu Kyi denied that Muslims had been subjected to ethnic cleansing.

She has been criticised for not defending Muslims since she emerged from house arrest two years ago.

Over the past two years, violence between Buddhists and Rohingya Muslims has broken out in the state of Rakhine. There have also been clashes between Buddhists and Muslims in central Burma.

Muslims have borne the worst of the violence, with hundreds killed, often by mobs armed with knives and sticks.

'Dictatorial regime'
Continue reading the main story
"
Start Quote

People assume too readily that on a path to democracy - that we are democratising at a fast rate - but it is not happening like that at all"

Aung San Suu Kyi
Burmese opposition leader
"I think the problem is due to the fear felt by both sides," she told the BBC's Mishal Husain.

"Muslims have been targeted but Buddhists have also been subjected to violence.

"This fear is what is leading to all this trouble."

She said tensions had also been inflamed by a worldwide perception - also felt in Burma - that global Muslim power was "very great".

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 10:06 AM

"I always said "tiny minority."
No you didn't - you said "all male Pakistanis" - you have just been given your full quote
We have always said a tiny minority - you denied it and implicated the entire community in sex crime
You lied, you continue to lie - you are a lying racist shit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 10:11 AM

Your quote - in case you missed it

Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things.
Don I do now "believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.
Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?"

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 10:22 AM

Did you not spot "tiny minority" Jim.

And the first line says that no-one, least of all me, believes that "Muslims are all evil, oppressive, chauvinist, paedophile rapists, made so by their cultural upbringing"

So in the very first line of that 3 year old post I make clear that I do not believe that which you have accused me of believing every few weeks ever since!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket laughing
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 01:04 PM

Hey Keith!

Remember your bit about Christians don't do this, Christians all do that etc..?

Interesting story on BBC website about an anti Semitic vicar in the Guildford diocese....

Same diocese that wanted me to share their delusion before letting me pay them for a wedding service. Sanctimonious twats.

Anything else you want to add to your preposterous list of what Christians do or not do? Granted, slagging off Israel is ok, slagging off Israel on cultural grounds is pushing the anti Semitic button if you aren't careful, and it all becomes insignificant compared to abusing the position of trust society gives you when you repay it by raping children and vulnerable adults.. But after all, you are the one who wishes to generalise when it comes to the word Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 01:16 PM

You say "a tiny minority succumb" you also say all male Pakistanis are implanted - which is the point of your disgusting statement and makes it worse - the potential perverts in our midst
I cannot believe you are attempting to dig yourself out of this hole with more lying evasion
Did you say you were a Christian - are all Christians as honest as you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 02:40 PM

Culture IS implanted in everyone Jim.
All those people did blame the culture.
I would not know myself, but why would I not believe them?
Why don't you believe them?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 02:51 PM

Musket.
Just a misunderstanding.
JTA yesterday.
(JTA) — An anti-Semitism claim against an Anglican vicar by the Board of Deputies of British Jews was resolved through mediation.
The board brought the complaint against the Rev. Stephen Sizer to the Church of England a year ago, saying Sizer made anti-Semitic statements and published links to anti-Semitic websites, including links posted on his blog that promote Holocaust denial and Zionist conspiracy theories.
The complaint was made to the Bishop of Guildford by Jonathan Arkush on behalf of the Board of Deputies of British Jews.
According to the conciliation report to the Bishop of Guildford, Sizer did not accept "the substance of the complaint" but "regrets that on occasions his use of language has caused offense to some and agrees that he should have reflected on his choice of words more carefully. The content of certain websites having been drawn to his attention, Dr. Sizer also accepts that he should have taken more care before linking to them."
Mediation sessions between Arkush and Sizer led by Christian and Jewish counselors were held for three months prior to the final conciliation report.
Arkush told the Jewish Chronicle that the Jewish Board "welcomes Rev. Sizer's acknowledgments and undertakings, which clearly demonstrate that conduct on his part which led to the complaint was unbecoming or inappropriate to a minister of the Church of England."
Sizer said in his 25-page response to the complaint that he has "done nothing more than express legitimate political opinions, based on reasoned argument."
"I repudiate all forms of illegal violence, whether directed toward Jews or Palestinians. I have repeatedly advocated for the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by peaceful means based on the implementation of international law," Sizer said in his response.
On his blog Wednesday, Sizer wrote, "I care passionately about the safety of the Jewish people and the right of Israel to exist within internationally agreed borders."


Read more: http://www.jta.org/2013/10/23/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/complaint-against-anglican-vicar-over-anti-semitic-links-resolved#ixzz2ifOrsYN6

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 10:54 PM

Nothing in the quotes from Keith you give, Jim, amount to advocating or defending persecution of Muslims, which is what you accused him.

It seems pretty self evident that how we act is to some extent culturally conditioned. That does not mean it is the only factor, or necessarily the most important factor, and it applies to highly desirable ways of behaving as well as to undesirable ways.

So when Alibhai-Brown refers to "some Asian cultural assumptions that make the paedophiles feel no guilt or shame about what they do" she is making a reasonable comment about the relation between Pakistani culture and some tragic events.

Well, you could say that words such as that could be used to argue in favour of persecuting Pakistani Muslims, as potential perverts, or even as advocating such persecution. But I note you do not, but reserve that accusation for Keith, who in reality goes no further than Alibhai-Brown.

Very possibly she might be mistaken about the relevance of Pakistani culture on what those men did, after all there are many other factors involved. But it is clearly important for people in that culture to think about such things, just as it is important for Catholics to think about analogous things touched on in this thread.
...............
In a discussion like this the only loyalty we have should be to what we believe to be the truth. Getting all adversarial about it, identifying enemies and friends, staying silent when someone "on our side" says something wrong, and always seeking to interpret what the enemy says in the worst possible light... That's not about loyalty to the truth, it's about trying to win a war.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 11:21 PM

Felt persecuted today, when the Christian cashier in the Waffle House told me to have a blessed day. Didn't want to have a blessed day.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 12:57 AM

Great post, McG. But it'll be water off duck's back to dear old fatuous hidebound doctrinaire mind-made-up-please-don't-confuse-me-with-facts Carroll. Don't know why you all waste so much emotion & energy even arguing with one so self-evidently incapable of rational objective thought. As they say, "Just leave him alone. He's not worth it".

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 01:06 AM

You cut and pasted an excellent example of climb down there Keith.

I'd take notes from it on how to do so if I were you. Might come in handy one day.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 02:59 AM

"Culture IS implanted in everyone Jim."
Thankyou for your confirmation of your obnoxious and inhuman views views,
After your debacle here I really was going to drop this, but as you appear to have declared your intention to continue your hate campaign against other religions i will continue to raise it as a perfect example of this subject - religious intolerance, in your case Christian intolerance of unbelievers and those who stray from the declared path.
I have to confess that I have trouble in squaring the example of being a Christian that you present with those in my experience - I've never met a Christian Jihadist before.
If you knew the slightest thing about culture you would know that it is in a constant state of flux, changing as the surrounding circumstances change; it is not an implant (that is the stuff of science fiction and the invention of novelists like Orwell and Huxley).
The criminals you brand as having been "implanted by their religion" are in fact British Muslims who, if anything, are displaying some of the worst aspects of the behaviour of the misfits of British society.
One of the known facts of paedophilia in Britain, in all its forms, is that it is overwhelmingly an indigenous crime perpetrated by British criminals.
The greatest change within the Irish Travelling communities we worked with in Britain took place when they moved from their cultural rural home territories into cities like Dublin, London, Liverpool and Birmingham and took up all new urban pastimes - drugs, car theft, mugging, burglary - even sex outside marriage.....
You really need to get out more - try your local lending library - so much more informative than relying on Googling your knowledge from Islamophobic sites for your information.
Read a book sometime - it can be fun!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 03:03 AM

Sorry Mike - forgot to say hello.
Where were you when he needed you?
He must have forgotten to rub the bottle to request another wish - or maybe you were afraid someone was going to occupy your empty armchair!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 03:08 AM

The criminals you brand as having been "implanted by their religion"

Fake quote.
I actually stated repeatedly that it was nothing to do with religion.

1000 anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 03:16 AM

OK, I claim it - 1000!!