BS: Christian Persecution

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 07:31 AM

"Oh come on, Jim; all categories have their degrees:- "
Six million Jews perished at the hands of the Nazis,
Only half a million Gypsies suffered the same fate
Less considered undesirable because of mental or physical deficiencies went to the gas chambers
Less again died for being Trades Unionists, Communists or other types of opponents of the state
A mere one in ten of the male population of Lidice were lined up and shot following Heidrick's assassination
And many thousand more unconnected individuals were picked out and murdered at the whim of those in charge.
None of them measured up to the six million in numbers
At what point does persecution cease to become persecution on your particular sliding scale, and when of these become unimportant to be dismissed as you have both dismissed the termination laws reached because of religious pressure – do tell?
Notwithstanding, I will really try harder to improve my outlook on life Mike – I'm sure you have my best interests at heart.
"The word in the title refers to kidnap, forced conversion, rape, extreme violence, murder, imprisonment and the destruction of churches and homes."
All threads are subject to interpretation with a limit by whoever chooses to participate in them and to attempt to interfere with that basic democratic right is censorship
As I said earlier
BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 08:33 AM

Nina Shea, an international human-rights lawyer and expert on religious persecution, testified in 2011 before Congress regarding the fate of Iraqi Christians, two-thirds of whom have vanished from the country. They have either been murdered or fled in fear for their lives. Said Shea: "[I]n August 2004 … five churches were bombed in Baghdad and Mosul. On a single day in July 2009, seven churches were bombed in Baghdad … The archbishop of Mosul, was kidnapped and killed in early 2008. A bus convoy of Christian students were violently assaulted. Christians … have been raped, tortured, kidnapped, beheaded, and evicted from their homes …"

Lela Gilbert is the author of Saturday People, Sunday People, which details the expulsion of 850,000 Jews who fled or were forced to leave Muslim countries in the mid-20th century. The title of her book comes from an Islamist slogan, "First the Saturday People, then the Sunday People," which means "first we kill the Jews, then we kill the Christians." Gilbert wrote recently that her Jewish friends and neighbors in Israel "are shocked but not entirely surprised" by the attacks on Christians in the Middle East. "They are rather puzzled, however, by what appears to be a lack of anxiety, action, or advocacy on the part of Western Christians."

In December 2011, Britain's chief rabbi, Lord Jonathan Sacks, addressed Parliament saying, "I have followed the fate of Christians in the Middle East for years, appalled at what is happening, surprised and distressed … that it is not more widely known." "It was Martin Luther King who said, 'In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.' That is why I felt I could not be silent today."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 09:30 AM

__Mike – I'm sure you have my best interests at heart.~~

Yes I have, Jim. So please don't write any more such relativist nonsense as

Six million Jews perished at the hands of the Nazis,
Only half a million Gypsies suffered the same fate
Less considered undesirable because of mental or physical deficiencies went to the gas chambers
Less again died for being Trades Unionists, Communists or other types of opponents of the state
A mere one in ten of the male population of Lidice were lined up and shot following Heidrick's assassination
And many thousand more unconnected individuals were picked out and murdered at the whim of those in charge.
None of them measured up to the six million in numbers
At what point does persecution cease to become persecution on your particular sliding scale

All those instances you adduce were on the top of the persecution scale, as all involved the deaths of inncocent people guilty of no crime except such as was so regarded in the perverted society they lived in, where one's race/nationality could become a capital crime. And do you honestly not think this a different level or degree of persecution from making abortion or contraception difficult to obtain?

You are coming on: but really must try harder, you know...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 09:46 AM

inncocent people guilty of no crime except such as was so regarded in the perverted society they lived in

Such as persons seeking an abortion or birth control in the perverted, "Christian"[sic] society that denies them that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:00 AM

all involved THE DEATHS of inncocent people guilty of no crime except such as was so regarded in the perverted society they lived in

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:02 AM

You mean like THE DEATHS of women who cannot obtain certain medical procedures, Keith, and/or of those who have to resort to back-room practitioners?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:20 AM

Greg, non-Muslims living or working in Saudi are expected to live by the Sharia like everyone else.
That is not persecution.

Someone denied an abortion in Ireland is being treated the same as everyone else.
It is not persecution.
Furthermore, laws are not imposed by any church, but by elected politicians in a secular, democratic parliament.
That is not persecution of non-Christians by Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:53 AM

Say what, Keith? That's even more idiotic than usual. Not only are Saudi Arabia & Sharia irrelevant but we are not discussing solely Ireland & even if we were your argument amounts to the nonsensical assertion that the Nazis did not persecute the Jews because they were all treated the same.

Apparently the deaths of the women concerned are acceptable- and possibly favored?- by "Christains"[sic]such as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 11:00 AM

"relativist nonsense "
What binds them all together as "persecution" is they were perpetrated by people who gave themselves the right of life and death and had no hesitation in exercising that right.
"All those instances you adduce were on the top of the persecution scale"
Including the many thousand more unconnected individuals were picked out and murdered at the whim of those in charge?
You seem to have reached Keith's level in describing the death of a young woman because of religiously inspired laws which prevented a life-saving operation, (not to mention the two 11 year old rape victims who had to be taken to another country for similar life saving operations) as "making abortion or contraception difficult to obtain"
Even this present Government (not exactly a division of the Red Army have been shamed into changing the law because they are forced to recognise that the present situation kills people - still a long way to go, but at least they've reached the mid-20th century!
I still don't grasp whet constitutes 'persecution' in your book, but I think I'm getting there - anything committed by Muslims, do I have that right.
Pretty much in line back with your claim on the 'Muslim Prejudice' thread that it was permissable for Keith to describe Male Pakistanis as 'implanted cultural perverts' but not OK for anybody to suggest that Jews were usurers.
Getting there, must try harder.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:35 PM

Oh, OK then, just go on feeling self-satisfied at the pigsbum rubbish you're spouting, Jim. Congratulate yourself on having put the wicked racist reactionaries in their place. Go on ~~ have a really good gloat at how clever you have proved yourself!

And then just go back a bit and look at some of the comments your posts have been greeted with:

28 Sep 13 - 05:09 PM 29 Sep 13 - 08:04 AM 30 Sep 13 - 12:17 PM 30 Sep 13 - 08:53 PM would do for a start.

They see thru your posturing, & as one of them puts it, blustering. So does Keith. So do I. It's all your usual MO ~~ you give the impression of wanting to argue intelligently till anyone asks you to question one of your fatuous OK shibboleths; then you turn illogical; when this is pointed out, you turn nasty. Got any friends left anywhere, have you?

You really are a pathetic, point-missing, doctrinaire, agenda-driven, self-congratulatorily anti-intellectual little pillock... I've done with even bothering to argue with you; it's all pissing down the wind of your conceited holier-than-thou arrant conceit, and I've got better ways to waste my time, thanks...

Adieu. You must really be feeling good now

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 01:33 PM

Once again I repeat the point I have already made a couple of times. If this were a thread about the persecution suffered by Muslim minorities in some countries, I do not believe that Jim would be happy to see it containing a stream of posts focussing on the failings which can be identified in Islamic countries and Muslim, however justified criticism of such matters might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 01:34 PM

"Got any friends left anywhere, have you"
Yup - but I tend to avoid hypocrits
"28 Sep 13 - 05:09 PM 29 Sep 13 - 08:04 AM 30 Sep 13 - 12:17 PM 30 Sep 13 - 08:53 PM would do for a start."
You mean some people actuqally disagree with me - shit - must change my mind before anybody notices
"I've done with even bothering to argue with you"
Don't seea great deal of argument from you nowadays Mike, just hit-and-run snide
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 03:59 PM

Say what, Keith? That's even more idiotic than usual. Not only are Saudi Arabia & Sharia irrelevant but we are not discussing solely Ireland & even if we were your argument amounts to the nonsensical assertion that the Nazis did not persecute the Jews because they were all treated the same.

Saudi has laws that we might not like, but they apply to all.
Some Muslim and some Christian countries have laws that you and I might not like, but that is not persecution.

The persecution that this thread is about is beheading and otherwise murdering, torturing, imprisoning, forced conversion, rape, and the destruction of homes and churches.


And Greg, the Nazis did not persecute all Germans.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 04:02 PM

In the First Baptist Church ( in my county a church could accurately call itself the Fortieth Baptist Church) where I live, the sign outside reads "God help The USA." I feel persecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 04:30 PM

at least jim is worried about the loss of life to a woman pregnant and we probably all agree with that sentiment.
it is unclear to me if he supports the destruction of human life for lesser reasons by those who "gave themselves the power of life and death....". as the thread has already drifted that way I did not think I should remain silent.
it is also unclear if he really does think his arguments are accurately and logically addressing the issue.
if he does , and stands alone for the truth [other than greg] then he has the satisfaction of having spoken truly.
a blessing on his houses.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:03 PM

some Christian countries have laws that you and I might not like, but that is not persecution

Why not persecution (see definition above), pray??

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:34 PM

Why not persecution (see definition above), pray??

Your definition is not about persecution.
The persecution that this thread is about is beheading and otherwise murdering, torturing, imprisoning, forced conversion, rape, and the destruction of homes and churches.

Not non-discriminatory laws that apply to a whole population.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 06:08 PM

The persecution that this thread is about is beheading and otherwise murdering, torturing, imprisoning, forced conversion, rape, and the destruction of homes and churches.

Only by your conveniently narrow, iconoclastic & personal definition, Keith. Try joining the real world.

Once again, see definition of persecution, above.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 09:23 PM

So what varieties of persecution is it you think most Christians deserve ( your words), and which sorts do do draw the line at, greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 03:08 AM

So Greg, you accept that under my "conveniently narrow, iconoclastic & personal definition" of persecution, Christians are victims but not perpetrators.

Under your definition where persecution is any state with laws that some find unreasonable, everyone in the world is a victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 07:07 AM

Err.I Anyone care to use the word sharia in the context of what it means? Some ignorance of the first order going on.

Saudi law says that Sharia is the legally binding outcome of arbitration in both civil and criminal disputes. To access Sharia, not only do both sides have to agree but both sides have to be Muslim as it is Islamic process for Islamic people. If anyone else is tried, it is by courts and judges which may invoke Allah to be guiding their interpretation of the law, and the law will not contradict the Q'ran but it is a criminal or civil court that would try a Christian. You do not qualify for Sharia.

And I thought I was the thick one when it came to religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 07:53 AM

Alcohol is forbidden under Sharia.
Muslim or not, you are not allowed to make it or drink it in Saudi.
Greg would say they are being persecuted.
I would not.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 08:22 AM

"Your definition is not about persecution."
You appear to be re-defining the term to suit your defence of Christian persecution of other Christians - by the way - Savita Halappanavar - (she who died because a Christian law prevented a life saving operation) was not a Christian.
Can you provide a definition that says that if a law persecutes the entire population, then if is "not persecution"?
Or, on the other hand, are you saying that allowing a woman to die or preventing 2 11 year olds from having life saving operations on religious grounds is not persecution?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 08:41 AM

I do not like it either and I am Christian.
Your laws are not dictated by any church.
You have elected politicians in a secular, democratic parliament.
Take it up with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 10:09 AM

I've heard it said repeatedly that you Brits understand irony a deal better than us Yanks.

Guess you're the exception, eh kevin?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 11:00 AM

"Your laws are not dictated by any church."
If you mean the Irish laws, (not mine) they have been dictated by the church from the setting up of the Irish Free State in 1922 - this is a long acknowledged fact.
The laws regarding pregnancy termination have outlived the waning power of the church, and the behaviour of the church has been a major feature in the events following the death of Savita Halappanavar
If you want a classic example of absolute collusion between Church and State (I'm sure you don't if it in any way implicates Christianity) you may look no further than the collusion between the Church and the various governments in consigning many thousands of young women into virtual slavery in the Magdalene Laundries which were set up in the 18th century to 'reform fallen women' and which operated without interruption right p to 1996 (I have no doubt that you will now claim that these are not extreme examples of Christian persecution).
Denying realities now seem to be par for the course for you.
It is a debasement of all true Christians to disown the appalling crimes committed in the name of their/your (sic) god.
the abortion laws in Ireland, and in every other Catholic country are a direct result of church pressure.
Incidentally, I suppose you know that the stance on pregnancy termination for whatever reason, taken by the church is that it is murder, ergo - nation promoting it is guilty of mass-murder?
Welcome to the exclusive world of human rights criminals!
Can we assume we are not going to get a dictionary version of "persecution" and we are going to continue to be treated to your own made-up version?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 11:54 AM

Your democratically elected politicians in their secular Parliament can choose which laws to keep from bygone days, and which to repeal.
No church has any input, so why blame Christianity?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 03:04 PM

Not my elected politicians - Ireland's - I remain a British citizen
The Government of the day here have now changed the laws despite bitter opposition by the church
The Christian churches (largely malign) influence reached back centuries in Ireland
It would be bad enough if it was just confined to sexual matters, but it isn't - it fed int its literature, education, arts... even its music.
In the 1940s the church deliberately destroyed some of the finest traditions of our music and song by identifying them "a threat to the nation's morals"
They forcibly broke up the crossroads and house dances, driving the nation's young people into the licences and supervised Dance halls; priests intervened in local musical gatherings, smashing musical instruments and beating the participants.
One of our singers, a lady now into her nineties, recived a blow on the head with a priest's cane which burst her eardrum leaving her deaf in one ear for life.
The attitude of the controlling Christian Church in Ireland to traditional music was the same 18th century Scotland.
Some of Ireland's most beautiful literature was placed on a "forbidden" list, The Index, notably one of Ireland's great rural classics, 'The Tailor and Ansty' - never heard of it? - not surprising, few people have outside of this country.
The influence reached into the schools, even following the child abuse scandal the church is still fighting to retain its grip on the bodies and minds of children through its schools.
Up to fairly recently if a Catholic wished to marry a Protestant he/she had to seek permission from the Bishop and guarantee that any children would be brought up as Catholics - there was a wonderful film 'A Love Divided' based on a notorious incident of this happening.
The influence of the church spread its tentacles into every aspect of human existence from birth to death
It took the clerical abuse of thousands of children by those who had been entrusted their well-being to loosen that grip   
It took a national outcry following the tragic death of a young woman to bring Christian decreed laws to the level Britain was at the end of the 1950s.
Those who attempted to bring about the few meagre changes were met with abuse, ostracisation, and public accusations of promoting murder from Christian fundamentalists and were met with vicious opposition by the church - who inferred that to support them was to promote the murder of children
The Church rolled in by throwing its facilities at the disposal of these fundamentalists and threatening anybody who supported change with excommunication - spiritual blackmail
It is to the credit of the politicians concerned that they have managed to produce any change whatever.
I have no doubt whatever that you will continue to deny that any of this is "persecution"; neither have I any doubt that you wll continue to attempt to shift the blame away from the church to "somebody else" - don't you always?   
I'm not blaming Christianity you are - I'm blaming the Church - it was one of my earliest posting in which I pointed this out.
The everyday normal genuine and practicing Christians have been part of my life throughout the length of it - many of my family are practicing Christians, as are virtually all our friends and neighbours.
These are the real, everyday, lifelong victims of fundamental and extreme religious persecution by those you have defended with your deliberate distortions of the truth.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 04:07 PM

At my doctor's office there's a bible in the waiting room, and a copy of the New Testament in the examining room. I feel persecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 04:08 PM

The Catholic Church has no power in Ireland except what the Irish choose it to have.
It is not the only country with a Catholic tradition.
You are a modern democracy and have a choice.
Stop whining about how evil the Christians are just because you can't say no to a priest.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 05:00 PM

YES IT BLOODY WELL HAS - IT HAS CLUNG ONTO THAT POWER BY FEAR AND SPIRITUAL BLACKMAIL AND IT CONTINUES TO ATTEMPT TO DO SO
IT CERTAINLY IS NOT THE ONLY CATHOLIC COUNTRY AND THOSE POWERS ARE USED ELSEWHERE - ASK THE CHILDREN WHO WERE RAPED AND LEFT TO DIE BY THE RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS THAT FORCED THEM TO FLEE TO RECIEVE LIFE-SAVING MEDICAL TREATMENT
TO DENY THAT FACT IS TO PARTICIPATE IN THE ONGOING PERSECUTION OF THOSE TOO POOR AND WITHOUT THAT INFLUENCE
ARE YOU HONESTLY CLAIMING THAT THE CHURCH HAS NOTHING TO THESE BESTIALITIES?
YOU REALLY SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOUR PERSISTENT SUPPORT FOR HUMAN RIGHTS ATROCITIES
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 08:44 PM

More time now
How dare you reduce the Catholic church's hold over it's devotees to "you can't say no to a priest." - what kind of people are you?
You and your mate who has described the death of a young woman because of religiously imposed laws prevented her from having a life saving operation as "making abortion or contraception difficult to obtain" barbarians, are a matched pair
The situation of refusing to save a life by performing a termination pertains to every single Catholic (Christian) country on this planet.
I'm sure that this will bore MtheGM out of his skull, but:
My father was a devout Catholic, an altar boy and collegiate student at SFX in Liverpool, with the Achilles heel of also being a dedicated anti-Fascist.
In 1937, appalled at what was happening to fellow-believing Jews in Europe, he volunteered to fight in Spain to try and stop the rise of Fascism in Europe. He was wounded and taken prisoner-of-war in one of Franco's 'Christian' prisons.
I found out a couple of years ago from a Liverpudlian historian of that period, that over the term of his imprisonment, he and several other fellow-prisoners were taken out few mornings each week and placed before a firing squad.
Each time the prison chaplain performed he Last Rites on the 'condemned men'.
In his case, these charades all ended with the firing squad and the chaplain collapsing with laughter and returning the men back to their cells.
These performances were kept interesting by the occasional genuine execution.
He told me many stories, but the only time in my life I ever saw him weep was when he spoke of a young lad who was put into his cell as a suspected runner for the Republicans - a 14 year old 'postman'.
The Italian commander over the prison was inclined to release him because of his age and because there was no solid evidence against him.
Unfortunately for the boy, not only did the incident occur at a time when the war hung in the balance, but the prison chaplain happened to be a native of the same village. As an insurance policy against the Fascists losing the war, the priest gave evidence against the child as a "Republican Communist", and he faced one of the genuine firing squads a couple of days later.
My father returned from Spain totally traumatised - I understand he didn't speak for two years.
He was rewarded for his anti-Fascist activities by being excommunicated from his church for fighting 'in the wrong war', by the same Pope who refused to lift a finger to prevent Italian Jews from being sent to Hitler's ovens (probably the greatest favour ever done by any churchman for any member of my immediate family)
He was also rewarded by the British Secret Service with a political record as a "premature anti-Fascist" branding him 'unemployable' and ascertaining that my sister and I never got to know him until I was aged 12 as he was forced to take the only work he could find as a Navvy.
The legacy these events have left me is, now that I'm old there is hardly a single day passes when I don't think of my father with pride and remember the debt we owe to his persecutors.
Now tell me again about Muslim persecution!
Basically, there is no difference between the most of these 'Christian' countries and any other extremist religious country - brothers under the skin.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket taking pulse check
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 09:19 PM

Ok. Pulse check time. The only religious persecution story on today's BBC news website I can see is that of Buddhists massacring Muslims. Considering I am in Bangkok and visiting their temples, hearing all about tolerance and respect, it makes you think...

By the way Keith, I have consumed alcohol in Saudi Arabia, legally, not within Embassy compound and purchased legally too. After all, I'm not a Muslim. My female colleague drove a hire car for that matter. In some areas, neither is advisable due to local interpretation and level of intelligence of officials, but the law itself differentiates between expectation of Muslims and that of non Muslims. A brutal state with much to learn and I have little time for the fawning Western governments bestow on it, but as far as persecution goes, it persecuted its own people far more than those who visit by placing of restrictions not placed on others.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 09:43 PM

Pakistani Government School Textbooks teaching Hate against Christians and Hindus; Jihad and Martyrdom to Children

"This paper examines the role of school textbooks in promoting hate against religious minorities in Pakistan. On September 22, 2013, more than 80 Christians were killed and hundreds wounded when two Taliban suicide bombers targeted worshippers as they were leaving after a Sunday mass at the 130-year old All Saints' church in Peshawar, the capital of Pakistan's Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province."

Read more

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 10:12 PM

Yep. Sadly, no longer news. As aren't the Baghdad bombings. The only news in the quick and dirty pulse check I just did was the one I just mentioned.

Persecution of religion and indeed lack of religion is all over the place. I think the argument in this thread many find distasteful is the inference that Christians either suffer more or are more deserving of respect to push their particular flavour on others.

I suppose it must be frustrating when you are a member of one particular club that normal people don't sympathise with your club more than any other. Cheer up, the media obviously feels you can sell Christian persecution more than any other form of persecution. Hence we hear more about it.

In downtown Bangkok yesterday, the police told our tuk tuk driver to go a different route to our destination because of an Islamic rally coming down the street, protesting about an American film just been released that they reckon provokes them. What that had to do with poor bloody Thailand I don't know? But that's the problem with religion, it all relies on ignorant masses being controlled. Normally at the expense of other ignorant masses.

A plague on all their houses.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 01:15 AM

Not bored at all, Jim; but fascinated, & full of genuine sympathy for these experiences & empathetic of your position as a result. But you do me a grave injustice by accusing me of equating the, as it were, lowest manifestations of these particular disabilities, the difficulty of obtaining contraceptives, with the most severe, as you cite them; which I have certainly never done. I was merely using them as instances of the bottom of the scale of persecution as I perceive it. I do not regard them as any way equivalent, but as appearing on quite different persecutory levels on the scale. Which brings us back to ▢-1, Jim ~~ your peculiarly obtuse refusal to realise or accept that there are varying degrees of seriousness of persecution. The ones you cite from RC Ireland are indeed high on the scale; but still scarecely to be equated in severity with judicially recognised cap-pun by beheading for apostasy, surely: even on the Carrollean scale!

Do please get this point into your head, and stop being so truculently and contentiously offensive & unpleasant. It simply puts people off [see above], and is entirely counter-productive in attempting to enforce the significance of your position & arguments. I know these are things on which you hold deep & sincere opinions; but for your own sake try to control yourself and keep your temper when urging them!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 02:47 AM

Musket, You did not consume alcohol legally in Saudi.
You were being allowed discretion that could be whipped away anytime on a whim.
"being found with an alcoholic drink, or committing a crime under the influence will lead to trouble, whether the person involved is a Westerner, Asian or Saudi."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1160846.stm

Jim, the Church has no input into your legislature.
You really can make any laws you want.
The solution to "FEAR AND SPIRITUAL BLACKMAIL" is to just say no.
Nothing will happen.
That is what the Italians did.
You can do it too.
(If you actually want to.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 04:27 AM

"Jim, the Church has no input into your legislature."
Your moronic repetition of this downright falsehood (with all the evidence to hand you cannot possibly believe something that flies in the face of reality even recent history and personal experience.
The woman who was denied her life saving operation and the children who were forced to flee the country to save their lives were in the situation they were on religious grounds
Savita Halappanavar was actually told by a member of the medical staff that her pregnancy could not be terminated because "Ireland was a Catholic country" - the family of the 11 year old who was raped, given two sexually transmitted diseases and achieved a pregnancy which, it was admitted by medical experts, would kill her, was told that "she should accept her martyrdom with pride".
Church influence in the governance of 'religious' countries is and always has been a fact of life - it is only when really bad things happen that things are forced to change.
The politicians who had the courage to bring about the meagre changes that (hopefully - nowhere near finished yet) have been decided on, did so by running a gauntlet of abuse, postings of horrific images of so-called "murdered" unborn children, and most important, the greatest threat taken seriously by anybody who has received a religious education, the threat of excommunication - eternal damnation.
The Jesuits had it in a nutshell "Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man" - the Manchurian Candidate didn't come anywhere near the power of the established church for technique.
In all the arguments we have had I have never once seen you display one single shred of humanity - Israel, Ireland, the Arms Trade, Travellers, massacred refugees, and now religion; you have never displayed a single degree of sympathy for human beings or understanding of the human condition.
On all of these subjects you have chosen your side and thrown an enormous amount of your time and energy in backing the various establishments - human rights abusers, mass murderers, the dealers in and users of Chemical weapons, and now the present bunch of mind-benders you are defending here.....
You have never once attempted to explain the mass rape of children at the hands of the clergy - here you are openly defending Church inspired laws which sent a pregnant woman to her death because "Ireland is a Catholic country" - you have made no reference to this whatever despite the fact that it concerns every Catholic living in a Catholic country - who cannot even use contraception without risking the damnation of their soul, according to the church.
Once again you are defending part of The Establishment (the Established Church) and its malign influence on people in general.
Your arguments (what there is of them - only continued and repetative denials here and a refusal to produce counter-arguments) are equivalent to those in defense of the clerical pedophiles who laid the blame on the children who tempted the priests and allowed themselves to be raped, and the parents who "looked the other way while it was happening".
You have either totally failed to grasp the power wielded by any influential church or you are happy that those who have that power continue to use it in the way they unarguably do.
If you genuinely believe that the church has no influence in "religious countries", show us that it hasn't - it is a long established and fully accepted fact that it most certainly has.   
Muskett had it about right when he quoted the old adage about "the Church of England being the Tory party at prayer?" - even in 'enlightened' Britain.
Mike
Sorry - you are still counting corpses and comparing the numbers and resorting to the old schoolyard accusation "he hit me harder sir".
The Christian Church has been an active exponent in massive atrocities in the past and will be in the future should they feel the need and be given the opportunity.
Concentrating on one single set of atrocities by one particular group of religious head-cases will only make that threat an inevitability.
Unlike your friend here, you've moved away from your dismissive attitude to the situation all Catholics find themselves in regarding pregnancy termination.
I can't ever recall your commenting on the religious (inter-Christian) conflict that has claimed many thousands of lives in the North Eastern part of this country in recent times, and continues, or at least, threaten to do so - do you have an opinion - do you care?
You haven't commented on these arguments in relation to the power of the various churches: malign, neutral, good.... do you have an opinion or is your concern only for the current body-count?   
The fact that Islamic fanatics hold centre stage at the present time is immaterial to our and our children's future well-being.
Islamism, Christianity, Judaism are brand names of the same product - if they are going to serve humanity as they should and claim to do, they need to be given their rightful place in sciety, which is certainly not where any of them are at the present time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 04:53 AM

I am not counting corpses, Jim I have already agreed that anywhere that corpses result, in whatever quantities, is equivalent in obloq

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 05:20 AM

I am not "counting corpses", Jim I have already agreed that anywhere that corpses result, in whatever quantities, is equivalent in obloquy: but motivation is still a factor; publicly cutting off someone's head with a blunt knife as outcome of a judicial decision after what passes for due legal process is at the top of even that scale, and if you can't see that then your blinkers must have turned into a complete blindfold. &, as you admit, the horrible 'embrace-your-martyrdom' times for pregnant children in Ireland are in the past - the too recent past agreed, but not NOW, this moment, as the beheadings in Tripoli &c are.

But you persist in regarding even more minor abuse & disadvantages as being indistinguishable from those: "Persecution is persecution", you say; making no distinction as to whether the deaths resultant are deliberate judicial execution, or a by-product of other prohibitions; and all of them equivalent to the expense & inconvenience of having to make a journey to get a safe termination. You are being disgracefully disingenuous ~~ & you know it. You are, as you have frequently demonstrated, incapable of shifting any entrenched position that you have once adopted; which always redounds to the detriment of such decent points or arguments that you might have.

I agree with you that all religions are restrictive and malign in influence. But then to go on as you do & adopt the anti-Hegelian stance that all of them are equally so, & no distinction can be made between them on that score, is just bloody silly. Stop switching off your brain whenever the topic of religion comes up, for heavens sake. You are making a thorough idiot of yourself, & you can see that I am not the only one around here to think so.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 08:10 AM

The politicians who had the courage to bring about the meagre changes

Courage?
What were they afraid of.
Priests and bishops?
Do us a favour.

The Italians did it because they wanted it, not out of courage.
And that is the difference in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 08:33 AM

You have now entered your mindlessly repetitive mode - I would suggest you carefully examine the Vatican pronouncements (not too much care needed - it's obvious enough bur anybody who cares to find it).
The Vatican (the head of the Christian Church in all Catholic Churches in the world) deliberately covered up the sexual abuse of children and allowed it to go no for decades - they continue to refuse access to many of the documents - exactly where do you think the blame for this lies - the children who were abused, their parents, the authourities, weak government..... ????
I think you have now said enough to make any conversation with you unnecessary - your crude defence of the continuing of the leading Christian Church in the world.
There is no comparison to what happened in Italy and the situation in Ireland
I suggest you read the full article article rather than taking your usual rout of blaming the people for the crimes of the government and the church (if you don't find it too difficult and "boring" that is!!
Now go away.
Jim Carroll

Abortion in Italy
Lesley Caldwell was born in Australia and came to England in 1967. She is currently completing a Ph.D. on changes in family legislation in Italy. The gathering of information on abortion was made possible by a research grant from the Central Research Fund of London University.
Lesley Caldwell
The passing of a law legalizing abortion in Italy was the parliamentary solution to a situation of illegality of scandalous proportions. The law, one of the most advanced in Western Europel was the result of a hard fought battle, a compromise solution won after six years of bargaining, delays and mass mobilization. The extreme discrepancy between the previous law on abortion and the reality of women's lives (estimates of three million illegal abortions a year were common) led to a campaign to change the law; it also led to extensive examination of what abortion means and what, as feminists we are asking-in terms of what is possible and what the limits are-when we demand and win rights through legislation. The range of the abortion debate in Italy and the extent of issues recognized as requiring discussion and analysis is striking compared with the English situation. Until the most recent attack on the 1967 Act, the debate around abortion in Britain has primarily stressed the class basis for the need to gain and retain abortion rights from the state. This stress has led to an apparent clarity about what abortion means and how it is lived that seems at variance with the confusion many women feel. While some groups obviously have tackled these questions, those aspects that most readily lend themselves to mobilization have predominated. A reluctance to take on areas seen as unpopular or difficult has been particularly noticeable on the English left. The Italian experience offers us a very different situation, one from which we may profitably continue to discuss the complexity of abortion as an issue for feminists.
The Church Much of the explanation lies in the position of the Catholic Church in Italy. The power and strength of the Vatican and of the organized church is exerted in economic and political terms but it is also exercised at a more local level through its strength in the provision of social services and in neighbourhood organizations. The Italian state has not a 'welfare state' type programme of assistance and the church has filled many of the gaps by its interest in, and responsibility for the provision of services like nurseries, care of the aged, hospitals, clinics etc, all of which have considerable effect on people's lives in their families and homes. It is this interest which has been of particular importance in contributing to maintaining Catholic attitudes to the family and to sexuality. The church's statements on sexuality and the family represent the most significant proportion of its public statements to the faithful. It is a central doctrinal area and one through which the church is intent on reinforcing and extending its control. Its position is that marriage exists primarily for the procreation and education of children, it is a serious liaison and as such cannot be dissolved; sex is a potentially dangerous capacity which may only be used under certain conditions and even within marriage (the fundamental condition) there must be limits on its use. The primary aim of sexual encounters-the possibility of procreation-means that any form of contraception other than a 'natural' one (i.e. the rhythm method or abstinence) is forbidden. Abortion involves the destruction of human life and can never be accepted regardless of the difficulties this position imposes.
http://www.palgrave-journals.com/fr/journal/v7/n1/full/fr19814a.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 08:49 AM

There is no comparison to what happened in Italy and the situation in Ireland
Yes there is.
The history was the same.
The difference is that the Italians were ready to move on.
How could the Church stop them, or you?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 09:53 AM

There will be no winner in this debate.Nor will there be a loser. The losers are the people who have been victimized by fanatics operating under the guise of their religious beliefs for hundreds, nay thousands of years.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 10:27 AM

Couldn't agre more Elmore (pardon the pun)
I suggest that anybody with the slighted modicum of intelligence and compassion read their way through these, particularly the first one, and bear in mind that this is what all practicing Catholics are brought up to believe and fear from the day they begin to understand.
It is not the outpourings of fanatical groups of extremists - it is the teacings of the estabished church which are expected to be obeyed on the pain of being sent to eternal damnation
Jim Carroll

http://www.thatreligiousstudieswebsite.com/Ethics/Applied_Ethics/Abortion/abortion_christian.php

https://americasouthandnorth.wordpress.com/category/gender-and-sexuality/womens-rights/abortion/

http://acatholiclife.blogspot.ie/2005/07/countries-that-allow-abortion.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 11:22 AM

The Italians rejected it years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 01:05 PM

all practicing Catholics are brought up to believe and fear

If only it was just the Roman Catholics.........

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 01:34 PM

Irony is tricky. Much of the time it essentially consists of saying the opposite of what you mean, as a way of expressing what you actually mean. When you say a more extreme version of what you actually mean, and want to backpedal, that's not irony. It's getting egg on your face.

I imagine if someone does start a thread about what's happening to the Muslim minority on. Burma, I imagine it'll likely get invaded by Islamophobes going on about Al Qaeda and Saudi Arabia and Rochdale and so forth. And Jim will, quite rightly, object. Now that is irony, of a slightly different kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:56 PM

Jim will, quite rightly...."
I have never cried "thread-drift" throughout the time I have been involved with this forum - I think I used it once ironically when somebody (guess who?) persistently attempted to steer the discussion away from the awkward bits, drifted off into his own Islamophobic little world - ironically; his reply - "thread drift happens" but that's your 'irony' for you.
Once someone opens a thread anybody who wishes to contribute should be free do so, no matter how far from the subject that contribution appears to be.
Using "thread drift" as a persistent form of attempted censorship is all to common of late doncha think? (please don't reply - purely rhetorical.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:59 PM

Half-time in Swansea v St Gallen.

0 - 0.

Isn't it a boring game?

~M~