BS: Christian Persecution

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 02:48 PM

You know Jim that's the second time KAOH has been named as a hypocrite in the last four hours by people on two separate threads.

Now KAOH is a great believer in consensus as he may admit he is one


............... but I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 02:59 PM

Greg F, interested to see that you have abandoned your attempt to justify your comment as sarcasm

I have? News to me. Apparently YOU need to learn how to use a dictionary.

you made a flip, thoughtless remark that you realise is unacceptable

I realize no such thing. I think, in the circumstances, it is considerably more acceptable that the mindless maundering and whingeing about "Christian Persecution".

at least have the courage to say so - you would like to see Christians slaughtered.

The only one who has said that they would "like to see Christians slaughtered" is yourself, above.

Now, about that "as you sow, so shall you reap" business- do you doubt the word of God? Remember, too, that all this tsoris is part of "God's Plan", to which "Christians"[sic] are supposed to meekly submit. So why the outrage at Muslims? Shouldn't you be outraged at the Christian God?

Or would you prefer to discuss "The War On Christmas"?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 02:59 PM

You see, the reason Keith is questioned in general by so many people on here is exemplified in this discussion with Jim regarding an article in the Times.

Keith is incapable of believing what people type unless they can give some link or other.

Highly insulting. He is still calling two Muskets liars based in his inability to find corroboration. Far easier to call people liars.

Fucking fascinating...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:06 PM

"but I doubt it."
Me too
Christins massacred 100,000 Muslims in Bosnia, 8,000 in Srebrenica alone
- "no massacres by Christians"
He reopened this thread to invite us to mourn a massacre that took place a century ago
Double standard hypocrisy or what - and yet it is we he described as bigots
What is this feller on - must find out who his dealer is!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: olddude
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:14 PM

What a hate filled place mudcat has become. Good luck ya need it cause I have more important stuff to do. like anything fucking disgrace

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:41 PM

Well said Dan. Vicious, ideologically driven morons.
Determined to kill Christianity, simply because they see it wrongly as "conservative"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:51 PM

"You know Jim that's the second time KAOH has been named as a hypocrite in the last four hours by people on two separate threads."

That says more about the people doing the name calling than Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:58 PM

Determined to kill Christianity,

You finally have left reality completely behind, haven't you Ake?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 04:02 PM

That says more about the people doing the name calling than Keith.

Even when the people doing the "name calling" are entirely correct in their designation?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 04:06 PM

"Determined to kill Christianity,"
Nope just determined to stop them killing non Christians and raping children
Everyone is entitled to believe what they wish, they are not entitled to take or make miserable the lives of others who do not share those beliefs - whatever that is
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 04:07 PM

'Apparently YOU need to learn how to use a dictionary'.

Really, what evidence do you have for that?

You believe that advocating the slaughter of Christians is better than complaining and whinging about Christian persecution. You really do hate Christians don't you?

'The only one who said that they would like to see Christians is you, above'. Err, pardon? I assume that you can read, although the evidence is to the contrary.

Appending (sic) to a quoted word indicates that the original word is erroneous in some way. The word you wanted to use is Galatians, not Galatianz. The word I wanted to use was Christians, and that is the word I used. Hope this has been of help.

I always enjoy reading other people tell me what I believe, they are invariably wrong.

You're a bit of a plonker really.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 04:12 PM

You really do hate Christians don't you?

Christians? Not at all. "Christians"[sic]? you bet. Also assholes.

I always enjoy reading other people tell me what I believe, they are invariably wrong.

But then its perfectly OK when you do exactly the same thing to others? Who's the plonker now?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 04:53 PM

I was wondering how Greg arrived at the idea that Christians have killed millions. Or maybe that was his being sarcastic and ironic. It certainly is ironic, since atheist dictators and gvt have been responsible for more murders in the last century, than in the whole history of the church. And I expect that would be true even if you count the crusades and any other war the church might have endorsed.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 05:22 PM

"Christians" (sic)

I really have no idea what you are talking about.

Please indicate where I have told you what you believe. I have extrapolated from statements that you have made but gone no further than is reasonable.

Pete, Greg has arrived at the idea that Christians have killed millions because over the centuries they almost certainly have. Try reading a couple of descriptions of the sack of Jerusalem by the crusaders for starters.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 06:35 PM

Pete, Greg has arrived at the idea that Christians have killed millions because over the centuries they almost certainly have.

Brendan, thank you. Sincerely. No joke. (But delete the "almost")

"Christians"(sic). I really have no idea what you are talking about.

Weel, let me refer you to your own elucidation, to whit: "Appending (sic) to a quoted word indicates that the original word is erroneous..."

I.e., there are plenty of folks - perhaps the majority of said folks - who claim to be ""Christians" who wouldn't recognize the teachings of Christ were they to rear up on their hind legs and bite them on the ass. Hence "Christians"[sic].

Please indicate where I have told you what you believe

Quote: "You believe that advocating the slaughter of Christians ..."

Q.E.D.

Oh, and picking on the typo re: Galacians as if it was something of importance is pretty silly as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 02:37 AM

I love how Christians make assertions and dismiss normal people as hating them yet start it in the first place.

I suppose it is the martry complex. A bit like train spotters ticking off trains they have observed.

If I hated Christians I'd be a sad bugger all round. But there again, most Christians I know don't make absurd claims on debate forums and then whinge when reality pops round for a chat.

If you don't want your delusion analysed for you, don't get on the couch.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 03:13 AM

What are these people on?
This thread was started originally to show what an evil religion Islam is in its persecution of the poor Christian.
When it was pointed out that all religions are guilty and capable of persecution, the immediate response was "thread drift" - they only want to talk about crimes against Christians and refuse to discuss those perpetrated in the name of Christianity.
Now it's "you hate Christians" and were "determined to kill Christianity"
It is not Christianity or Christians Islam, Judaism.... that are the problem, it is the way that those various beliefs are used and abused by fanatics and, in many cases, by the Churches themselves.
Believe what you want; it would be wrong for anybody to try and prevent your doing so, but do not allow those who organise those beliefs to affect and threaten our lives as they have in the past and as they are doing now.
If you don't believe that 100,000 Muslims were killed by Christians in Bosnia, deny it and show it it not true.
This from one of the leaers, Radovan Karadzic
The West will be grateful to us some day because we decided to defend Christian values and culture".
If you say that fanatical Christian churchmen played no part in the slaughter that took place in Northern Ireland and that the conflict had nothing to do with an artificially partitioned country divided on religious grounds, say so and prove it is not the case.
All these people are saying here is, "my religion is innocent of any crimes and theirs is guilty" - which is what all religious conflict is all about.
Answer the points.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 03:47 AM

I'd say Jim gave a very balanced assessment of the whole issue: "it is the way that those various beliefs are used and abused by fanatics and, in many cases, by the Churches themselves."

I wish this thread had been closed when the discussion died last year. Has anything new been said this year?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:10 AM

Jim,
To have never recognised the 100,000 Muslims slaughtered by Christins in Bosnia (not to mention the torture, mass rapes and concentration camps) as Christian atrocities - instead, you continue to claim there have been no massacres carried out by Christians.

Of course I recognise those events.
I started a thread to mark the British Army's work in defending the Muslims of Bosnia.

It is not true that this thread was "started originally to show what an evil religion Islam is in its persecution of the poor Christian."

Islam is not an evil religion.
I started the thread because the issue of Christian persecution was said to be under reported and recognised.
The Pope this Easter called it "silent complicity."

I am trying in a small way to break that silence.
I am sorry it makes some people angry.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:14 AM

Point taken Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:16 AM

Me too Joe, but boys will be boys.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 05:40 AM

" started the thread because the issue of Christian persecution was said to be under reported and recognised."
The persecution certainly is not under=reported or unrecognised, what is is the persecution by the Christian church, and you have persistently tried to get this removed from this discussion.
If you believe the two are unrelated, please show us why.
"I am trying in a small way to break that silence"
No silence - people have said all religious persecution is wrong - you have defended religious persecution by denying its existence and by attempting to remove it from this and other discussions as "thread drift"
You have yet to condemn persecution by the Christian Church without qualification - last chance saloon - do so now.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 06:03 AM

Nothing new since christianity as we know it was invented, about the same time as Islam... The mind control and belonging was a reaction to the first rise of Islam if most honest theologian historians are to be believed. Even the eminent ones writing recently 😎

Jim has it on the button here. If you post on a thread, you are inviting debate. Asserting gets assertive challenge. Reasoned debate for a reason doesn't.

This thread was started to perpetuate Islamophobia, and in the name of a co superstition, which makes it all the more galling. Most people I know who belong to faiths of one sort or another do not assert it as some ultimate truth, even though privately they may feel that way. Most people get on with their comfort blanket, it is the insecure ones who reach out to ridicule rational people, as they want to feel safe in numbers. As I said, on a positive note, it could be that his position shames him on the intellectual level, whilst most boutique christians are far more well balanced and see their faith in a similar way to my faith in Sheffield Wednesday.

Whatever, the idea that a majority of people in The UK still believe in a God, when we are all decently educated, even allowing for the varied competence level of teachers, is an absurdity that doesn't need challenge, it just needs you to walk round with your eyes open.

This thread and others started by The Rt Rev Acheson to push his hobby and provoke reaction are sadly at the "point and laugh" level.

Always happy to oblige. Although I accept both sides of this thread must dismay genuine christians who don't get much choice in who they find themselves associated with. (Far too many MPs are fellow Sheffield Wednesday fans but woe betide the idea I share their take on life.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 06:19 AM

By the way Keith
Youve at no time raised the question of Bosbia in terms of it being an atrocity carried out against Muslims by Christians.
On the contrary, you brought it up as a humane act on te part of us Brits to save the Bosnian people - religion wa nemev mentioned nd your point was a dishonest one anyway
The Brits involved themselves in the U.N. peacekeeping force at the behest of the U.N. - no altruism or humanity intended "we acted to stop it by putting our own people in harms way" my arseum!!
Jim Carrtoll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 08:05 AM

Musket, just for information - Islam began in the middle of the 7th century, Christianity began round about 30 AD. So probably not at the same time then. (Unless of course you think that Elizabeth II was queen round about the time of the Peasants' Revolt. Joke, joke! Please don't climb out of your pram!)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,#
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 09:42 AM

"Has anything new been said this year?"

Little new has been said in the past four years.

SSDD

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 10:30 AM

Jim, of course I recognise that Christians massacred Muslims in Bosnia.
Deplorable.
Britain sent a major force to support the UN defend them.
Small cheer?

You have yet to condemn persecution by the Christian Church without qualification
Which Christian church is guilty Jim?

you have defended religious persecution by denying its existence and by attempting to remove it from this and other discussions as "thread drift"
I have not.

Britain's contribution to protecting Muslim people in Bosnia.

Peacekeeping efforts in Bosnia, between 1992 and 1995. In 1994, there were 2,450 British soldiers serving with the UN Protection Force, a contribution second only to that of the French.

Stabilisation in Bosnia, between the end of the war in 1995 and 2002. Britain had several hundred troops deployed in Bosnia to ensure there was no return to the conflict which had raged for three years.

Kosovo 1999. The RAF deployed Tornados as part of a 78-day bombing campaign to halt the ethnic cleansing of Albanian Muslims. By April 26, they had carried out around 350 attack sorties, about 10 per cent of the overall attack effort by that stage.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 10:52 AM

Brendon. . Read what I put. "The mind control and belonging" was a reaction to competition in southern Europe, according to a relative who studied theology to D Phil (Oxon) and is now a common or garden vicar. (We do have the occasional chewing of fat over a bottle and I quite enjoy it.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 12:30 PM

That will teach me to read posts more carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 12:35 PM

Musket,
Whatever, the idea that a majority of people in The UK still believe in a God, when we are all decently educated,

It has no relevance to this thread, but the National Census and independent surveys and polls prove that atheists are a minority here, as in every other country.

This is being discussed on a less serious thread than this one, and I will reply to any more stuff there.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 12:46 PM

Which thread is that, Keith? I seem to have missed it.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 01:25 PM

Michael, I meant the discussion about how many atheists, which is on the Jeremy Clarkson thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 02:35 PM

Is there a difference between people who say they are Christians, a large number, and people who are actually Christians in as much as they attend a Christian service on a regular basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 02:59 PM

What's an atheist?

How do you know how many people activity reject theism?

Mind you. Thank-you for accepting you have been talking bollocks. Less serious threads certainly are the best place for your nonsense and fairy tales.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 03:08 PM

"Which Christian church is guilty Jim?"
Does it matter
The Catholic Church has overseen the persistent rape of children by clergymen for decades - they continue to to hide the evidence so the victims cag get some sort of closure - you are fully aware of this.
Protestant Churchmen in Ireland were active in ascertaining that Catholics did not achieve full civil rights there - preachers such as Ian Paisley were renowned as rabble-rousers urging violence against the "Papist Antichrists" The actual denominations of those involved in the Bosnian massacres is immaterial - they were fighting for Christianity and they said so.
"I have not."
What???
You demandede on numerous occasions when I brought up the fact that Christians were equally capable of persecution, that this thread was about Christians being persecuted
"Obviously there is no hope of you actually addressing the issues of this thread Jim.
You just rake up groundless smears against me as a person.
That is your only reason for posting here."
Want more?
You really shoudn't tell lies on the same thread as the incriminating statements
Still no coonxwmnation of Christian acts of persecution and mass-murder
The Muslims must have the monopoly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:13 PM

...who are actually Christians in as much as they attend a Christian service on a regular basis.

"Actually Christians?"

"Christians"[sic] Goin' to church on a regular basis don't make 'em Christians.

Church-going "Christians"[sic] historically made and currently make up the membership of the Ku Klux Klan.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:19 PM

An interesting perspective on the persecution of women by many world religions:

""The truth is that male religious leaders have had - and still have - an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution and abuse of women throughout the world. This is in clear violation not just of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but also the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, Moses and the prophets, Muhammad, and founders of other great religions - all of whom have called for proper and equitable treatment of all the children of God. It is time we had the courage to challenge these views.""



Jimmy Carter from 2009 

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:30 PM

You've had your chance to prove you are not a hypocrite Keith - you blew it.
Christians are capable of committing atrocities in the name of their religion as any other religious group - they certainly have done so in the recent past.
The problem under discussion here is oe of religious extremism - no religion is exempt from blame
Game, set and match - to adopt your own objectives in taking part in these discussions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 04:50 AM

Jim,
You demandede on numerous occasions when I brought up the fact that Christians were equally capable of persecution, that this thread was about Christians being persecuted

No. I just did not think clerical abuse was relevant to a discussion on persecution.

Christians are capable of committing atrocities in the name of their religion as any other religious group - they certainly have done so in the recent past.

I absolutely accept that, and I have said so before.

Still no coonxwmnation of Christian acts of persecution and mass-murder

I do and have condemn them, but are there any happening now for us to condemn?
There are all too many examples of Christians being massacred and forced out.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 09:05 AM

"No. I just did not think clerical abuse was relevant to a discussion on persecution"
Yess you did - it's one of yor stock defences when you run out of excuses
"I absolutely accept that, and I have said so before"
Lip-service and evasion - you have refused to acknowledge even one and have said on numerous occasions that yo have never found evidence of one, even when you have #been given it.
That remains your position
Try again for a straight answer - are not what happened in Northern Ireland examples of major atrocites and persecution carried out by Christians in the name of their religion - a simple yes or no will suffice at this stage?
"but are there any happening now for us to condemn?"
You've been given the case of Nigeria - you first questioned that it was happening, then you trivaialised it because there were not enough dead (being driven from their homes doesn't count apparently!!) and now you've moved on.
"here are all too many examples of Christians"
There are too many examples of Palestinians being massacred and forced out -not Christians so unworthy of comment (other than to support and defend what is happening)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,#
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 09:13 AM

You people can't decide who to blame. One day it's the Christians, next day it's the Muslims and next day it's the Jews. Looks like it depends on who's convenient for the argument. Anyone had a good look at the arms dealers and their role in your various hatreds?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 10:30 AM

Blame for what?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 10:33 AM

Any chance of buying a smaller paintbrush #?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 10:37 AM

Personally I blame anyone. Pagan, christian, muslim, jew, buddist, Baha'i or any other faith if they kill, repress or harm other people they are at fault. If they do it in the name of that faith they are doubly at fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 10:42 AM

said on numerous occasions that yo have never found evidence of one,
I have never said such a ridiculous thing.

Re NI, of course there was sectarian killing, but the armed struggle was about who ruled the place.
It is not a good example of religious persecution.

You've been given the case of Nigeria - you first questioned that it was happening, then you trivaialised it because there were not enough dead (being driven from their homes doesn't count apparently!!) and now you've moved on.

Ten thousand Christians killed there last year.
You have found one journalist who has been told there were three killings by Christians.
If they are not true, it would be surprising if there were no reprisal and revenge attacks.
Individual human tragedies, and utterly despicable, but sadly not surprising.

There are too many examples of Palestinians being massacred and forced out

Excellent point Jim.
Compare the vast number of Mudcat posts about them to the very few about Christians massacred that approach genocide in many places.

Still no posts about the Palestinian refugees being massacred in Yarmouk.
Is it because you can not even try to blame Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 10:44 AM

I blame it on the boogie.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 11:07 AM

"I have never said such a ridiculous thing."
Yes you have - you're at it again
"Re NI, of course there was sectarian killing, but the armed struggle was about who ruled the place."
The armed struggle was in opposition to the fact that Ireland had been partitioned in order to create a Protestant state - obvious to anybody anybody who has watched an Orange March.
See - you're at it yet again - you're given an example of religion based atrocities and you deny them, leaving what? - that the Muslims are the only religious terrorists.
I'm happy to go along with this for as long as you deny Christian atrocities - the longer you do, the more of a hypocrite you show yourself to be.
Please keep it up - you do make our lives so much easier.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,#
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 11:11 AM

"Any chance of buying a smaller paintbrush #?"

Then it'll take forever to paint the bigger picture. Besides, I'm learning from you guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 12:18 PM

Jim, I am not "at" anything.
I really have never said what you accuse me of.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 12:33 PM

You are denying what you have said and you are attempting to de-Christianise the Irish Troubles in order to avoid acknowledging that all religions, including Christianity, can and have committed atrocities.
You have never once acknowledged that fact, which is fine by me - it underlines your 'the Muslims done it" philosophy,
As I said, the longer you do it, the more odfa hypocrite you appear.
Keep up the good work.
Jim Carroll