BS: Christian Persecution

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 10:29 AM

Who has recently employed the label "leftie", String?

Thank you, bobad.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 10:44 AM

As with other things, my politics, or your imagined assessment of my politics is not in any slightest way your business.
You obviously share Keith's censorious attitude to who should be allowed to post on this forum and how they should be allowed to express themselves.
Whatever my politics might be it has nothing to do with my attempting to have my say unmolested on this forum.
You have tried hard enough in the past to find them out and your latest intervention shows why I refused to comply.
I have never at any time attempted to tell anybody what they should say or when or how they should say it, whether I agree with them or not.
Arguing strongly for a point of view, left, right or centre, is one thing - deliberately attempting to suppress those views from being stated is another (and attempting to smear them with ill-informed political innuendo yet another).
If you have anything to say about what I believe, please feel free to challenge it - otherwise, mind your own bloody business what my politics are.
Stringsinger says it all as far as I'm concerned.
Keith has til the end of the day to sort his aggressive and dictatorial behaviour towards other members of this forum.
There comes a time in life when parents have to let their children make their own way through the world - I suggest that time has long passed in your case.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 11:14 AM

Keith's censorious attitude to who should be allowed to post on this forum and how they should be allowed to express themselves.

No one can stop you saying whatever you like Jim, but you can't make me join with you in discussing something other than the subject if I want to stick with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 11:44 AM

"ut you can't make me join with you in discussing something other than the subject if I want to stick with it."
Keith, I'd be as happy as a pig in the proverbial if you never wrote another word on this forum - but I would never in a million years demand that you didn't.
Where on earth did you et the notion that I was trying to make you "join with you in discussing something other than the subject if I want to stick with it."?
As long as I have been a member of this forum you have been using the accusation of "thread drift" as an attempt to silence opposition - you are the only one in my recollection to ever have done so.
Please feel free to say nothing - I don't welcome birthdays nowadays, but I would gladly receive such a present from you!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 12:06 PM

You can believe what you like, Jim [& live where your personal life & career take you ~~ for all String's saying, I have never mentioned a word on that subject & would not dream of doing so], and I have never accused you, just now or at any time, of attempting to prevent my saying what I wanted, and neither have I so tried to prevent you. But as to impugning my motives, and those of others, for holding the opinions we do, you show very much the intolerance and lack of respect for those of differing views typical of those of your acknowledged orientation.* And your MO, of resentment and ill-temper & ill-manners when your shibboleths are questioned & you descend to name-calling, I continue to hold that I have described absolutely accurately above, as bobad appears to agree, & do not need to repeat it. If you can't see that in yourself, well then you can't... But that is how I, & others, perceive the matter.

~M~

*Not that you are the only one, or even the worst. I well remember when I once asked Mr Bridge why he was being so unmannerly and abusive to meover what IIRC was quite a neutral matter, he explicitly stated that those who held views like mine "deserved abuse", as I was [believe me he actually used this locution or one very like it] "a would-be grinder of the faces of the poor". And him supposed to be a man of education [but you don't denounce him for being so, do you, Jim?]. I would never tell him he deserved abuse; but I certainly felt on that occasion that he deserved the utmost contempt!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 12:29 PM

I broke off that post prematurely, as half-time in West Brom v Arsenal was drawing to a close [with W Brom leading 1-0, cheeky buggers!]; so I went down to pause the tv.

Further to String's unimpressive & officious intervention: as Jim knows, I have the utmost respect for his musical attainments & career, as member of the fine Critics Group & so on; so don't see what String thought he was achieving by diverting the topic in that direction. It is my impression that Jim likewise remembers some of my writing on folk. And indeed we have often both expressed regret on these threads that our mutual respect, and the things we have in common folk-wise, should be so unfortunately vitiated by other matters having led to a certain amount of contumacy over matters ideological. I remember Jim once remarking in that connection that the old Officers' Mess rule about no politics & no religion had much to be said for it.

But alas that would not do on Mudcat, would it? & so the matter remains. I wish Jim well in all his endeavours. It is absolutely no business of mine, I repeat, where he chooses to live & I can't imagine what can have led anyone to comment on that.

But, alas, our ideological differences persist. I fear I can't see that much can be done about that (can you, Jim?); but could wish it might lead him to fewer manifestations of quite such obloquy & ill temper, like inaccurate accusations of my having endeavoured in some way to prevent his speaking his mind!

As if...!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 01:04 PM

Jim, As long as I have been a member of this forum you have been using the accusation of "thread drift" as an attempt to silence opposition

How does my observation that you are going off subject silence you?

You have until sundown to answer.

Happy birthday.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 01:36 PM

Slow burn

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 10:44 AM

... my politics, or your imagined assessment of my politics is not in any slightest way your business.

From one whose posts on non-musical topics are universally [see umpteen comments above & on other threads] recognised as doctrinaire & agenda-driven, isn't that a bit rich?

Not really thinking of trying to make the leftward inclination of your views a "TOP SECRET, Highly Restricted, authorised personnel only" item were you, Jim?

☺~M~☺

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 02:01 PM

" as bobad appears to agree"
He eould say that, wouldn't he
"I repeat, where he chooses to live & I can't imagine what can have led anyone to comment on that."
I can't believe that you are claiming for a minute that I am accusing you of such - against my better judgement I went into a long description of why we live where we do in order to prevent Keith from using it to suppress my point of view.
Your ranting about my so-called left-wing leanings
"that peculiar left·wing conviction, peculiar in my experience to those of that particular political orientation, that any who do not share their views cannot possibly be motivated by any sort of ethical belief or genuine principle"
only echoes previous statements of yours, along with your demansds that I reveal my politics a sort of 'Mudcat un - whatever activities witch-hunt' by both of you.
"quite such obloquy & ill temper"
I don't react well to witch-hunts.
I understand Brecht sat and repeated told Joe McCarthy and his team to "**** off" repeatedly, for which, my admiration.
As there seems little point of our having anything to say to each other now you seem to have returned to your self-appointed role of 'Fairy Godmother' I suggest you do the same
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 02:07 PM

Is it really your birthday, by the way, Jim? Or was that just a manner of speaking?

If so: then Very Many Happy Returns from Emma & Me.

If not: then Happy Unbirthday...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 03:13 PM

Nope - given the up after reaching 70 - much appreciated anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 07:02 PM

peculiar in my experience to those of that particular political orientation, that any who do not share their views cannot possibly be motivated by any sort of ethical belief or genuine principle, but must be evil people driven to their views by a combination of selfishness & ill-will.

I'm afraid I'd totally disagree with Mike's assertion that that is an attitude that is either confined to or particularly characteristic of "left wingers".

It crops up in people with all kinds of political opinions. If anything I suspect it's more characteristic of people with rightwing views, though that's no more than a hunch. But just look at any set of comments on the blog of the Telegraph or Mail, let alone any number of American blogs.   It's probably more a question of personality than politics.

Jim keeps on saying stuff about Keith attempting to impose censorship on him, but i can't see how disagreeing with someone, or even telling them to belt up is censorship of any kind, aside from someone in the chair at a meeting etc.

We are drifting aren't we? It's getting a bit like the Life of Pi, bloodshed and all...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 02:47 AM

But but. ...

Surely religion is in itself censorship?

Accusing someone of trying to censor you when you question their invisible friend is a bit bleeding obvious to begin with. .. pouncing on you and trying to wear you down is not just what scientology advocates do. Other religions, especially Christian ones are very good at it too.

My responsible adult took her mum to our local church when she was up last as she likes church but her care home keep forgetting to take her.

I was told the vicar was imploring those present to challenge anybody who dismisses faith and fight to keep the church as a force in society. I have found since that this call to arms is as a result of a synod discussion into decreasing membership and influence.

Hence my suspicion over the perpetuation of a thread pointing out religious persecution of one particular cult. Christianity. Funny that.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:06 AM

I am not part of a conspiracy to recruit Mudcatters into Church.
The OP and the re-OP were inspired by news reports.
Take a look.

If I were a conspirator, the persecution would still be an issue worthy of discussion.
There would still be "the war on Christians."
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9041841/the-war-on-christians/

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:10 AM

Extract.
" Just as one didn't have to be Jewish in the 1970s to care about dissident Jews in the Soviet Union, nor black in the 1980s to be outraged by the Apartheid regime in South Africa, one doesn't have to be Christian today to see the defence of persecuted Christians as a towering priority."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:54 AM

"Hence my suspicion over the perpetuation of a thread pointing out religious persecution of one particular cult. Christianity"
Put n a nutshell Musket.
Two problems with the way all religions are spread.
1. We are taught from the beginning that there is only one god and that it is wrong to even question that "fact", immediately creating a them-and-us situation.
No choice is given in this; if you don't follow the instruction book you are a "sinner" - this is driven into you from the minute you begin to think - not reasoned choice, simply conditioning, and admitted as such - see Jesuit quote ""Give me a child for for his first seven years....".
I have known 'lapsed Catholics' who spent their lives in fear of eternal damnation because they abandoned the rule book they had been hnded at the beginning of their lives - "guilt" is the most powerful and widely used weapon of the church - this I something I have witnessed in family, friend, acquaintances, throughout my life
My father became a confirmed atheist, but he often said he didn't know if he would take last rites on his deathbed - the manner of his death never gave him that choice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_guilt

Elsewhere, an old W.W.1. quote boasted "there are no atheists in a foxhole"
Absolutes from day one.
This situation polarises even those who call themselves 'Christians' or 'Muslims'.... into different, often hostile sects - look at Northern Ireland or the different interpretations of Islam.
2. This divide is often seized on by political, economic groups and used as a manipulative tool of self interest - don't have to go further than this forum for discussions on this one - oil and arms sales, territorial expansionism, or national or international dominance.
As far as I'm concerned, these are the important factors that give rise to religious persecution - uncompromising absolutism in church teachings and how that absolutism is put to use for gain and political power.
Until all religions are taught as philosophies and removed from the political and economic arenas we'll continue to tear each others heads off in the name of our various gods.
As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing whatever 'anti-religious' about that conclusion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 04:00 AM

Kevin ~~ I take your point re Telegraph- & Mail- reading bloggers &c. But I sense a certain defensiveness in their position, a knowledge that many despise & envy them, seeing them as privileged beyond their merits & deserts; so rather than denouncing those of opposite views as 'evil', they sort of surreptitiously admit, as I see it, to feeling that their opponents might just have something to feel aggrieved about, & attempt to justify themselves to them.

With the left, OTOH, their conviction as I perceive it is that virtue resides exclusively on their side; they are absolutely confident of being the good guys in the white stetsons & their opponents the baddies in the black ones; which is why I find their unvarying truculently self-righteous tone so rebarbative.

Hope I have made my point comprehensible. Agree this a drift, but drifts are nothing new around these parts, eh!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 04:07 AM

"Extract.
" Just as one didn't have to be Jewish in the 1970s to care about dissident Jews..."
There is no suggestion that Christians are not being persecuted today - just that they are only part of a bigger picture.
Your (un-linked) quote is a representative from a Church body that has a bit of a reputation as a major persecutor itself - "glass houses maybe?
See below
Jim Carroll

The Global War on Christians JOHN L. ALLEN JR
Dispatches from the Front Lines of Anti-Christian Persecution

"JOHN L. ALLEN JR. is the senior correspondent for the National Catholic Reporter and the senior Vatican analyst for CNN, and writes for other national and international publications. He speaks at nearly fifty engagements a year and is the author of seven previous books, including his most recent A People of Hope: The Challenges Facing the Catholic Church and the Faith That Can Save It.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 04:12 AM

As far as I'm concerned, these are the important factors that give rise to religious persecution - uncompromising absolutism in church teachings and how that absolutism is put to use for gain and political power.

The Christians being persecuted are the poorest people in the poorest countries.
Talk of "absolutism" and "political power" are utterly meaningless in their desperate grinding poverty and helplessness.

The indifference to their suffering by those on the left, like Jim and Musket (but not McGrath let it be said), disgraces them.

Why are no left wing publications printing reports like that in the Spectator?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 04:16 AM

I agree with every word of your last post, Jim, and its 'conclusion'; but nevertheless consider it tangential to the actual topic of this thread, which is that, admitting there is as ever much 'persecution' going on of & by various ethnic & ethical entities, much respectable & authoritative research would seem to point inevitably to the fact that it is the Christian elements living under authorities hostile to them who at present constitute numerically by far the highest demographic of persecutees. Nobody is trying to deny that it wasn't always so, or that it almost certainly will not remain so in perpetuity. But such is the situation; NOW, TODAY, not at the time of the Crusades or the Inquisition or the Spanish Civil War, but RIGHT NOW, this moment.

You seem determined, on what you continually admit are doctrinaire grounds deriving from your own upbringing & experience, to refuse to take this vital point, the actual topic & gravamen of this thread, on board.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 04:19 AM

Some x-posting. I obviously meant your 0354 post, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:49 AM

Persecution of religious minorities appears to have very little to do with their relgious beliefs and everything to do with their being perceived as minorities available as targets.

Comments such as "As far as I'm concerned, these are the important factors that give rise to religious persecution - uncompromising absolutism in church teachings and how that absolutism is put to use for gain and political power" are both irrelevant as explanations of persecution - and also implicitly appear to imply some justification for persecution.

That is equally true in relation to Muslims as it is to Christians. And vice versa.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 06:06 AM

"The Christians being persecuted are the poorest people in the poorest countries."
And some of the poorest people in the world are still being persecuted with the full co-operation of the Catholic Church - including their active support for fascist regimes - notably by savages like Mrs Thatcher's friend Augusto Pinochet. (note for Mike there unless the Chile massacres are out-of-date too, and the present collusion of the church in atrocities carried out in South America today to exploit natural resources like timber dont count as atrocities
Russia, who leapt the Iron Curtain over a decade ago to become part of the 'Free World' has lent her weight to a mass murderer gassing his people.
"The indifference to their suffering by those on the left, like Jim"
You dishonesty really has no limits, does it - the indifference to suffering is perfectly illustrated by hand wringing hypocrites wept for the slaughter of Homs yet who directed their attentions to hiding the role of the West in supplying weapons to the perpetrators and then persuaing us that there was nothing we could do about it.
I suppose you have evidence of any political views expressed by me other than those of Humanism - no, course you can't.
Dividing the injustices and persecution of the world into divisions like 'left and right' is as stupid as dividing them into Muslim and Christian - all need to take their share in the blame
The US and Britain have no problems in giving open support and friendship to Feudalist Monarchs who maintain their positions with the use of Sharia Law, nor do they have any problems trading arms with extremist Muslim despots who use them to mete out there despotism - they've admittted as much.
Stop attributing political positions to me which you haven't the faintest idea about and make your arguments.
"Why are no left wing publications printing reports like that in the Spectator?"
As stupidly partisan a statement has yet to be made.
I can and have accessed this information in any area of the press I care to look - I tend not to go to (the "left" whatever that means nowadays), not because I don't trust them but because people like you and Mike will use it as an argument rather than dealing with the real issues.
I do know damn well I will never get a whiff of information on atrocities such as those described above and fully supported by the Church from The Universe or The Catholic Monitor.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 06:39 AM

A footnote
Keith's unlinked quote comes from a writer who works for the Vatican (still one of the world's front-runners in religious persecution) who has dedicated his writings to persuading us that the answer to all the world's problems lie in becoming Catholicism - a faith ruled by a church that historically has brought suffering to some of the "world's poorest people and continues to do so.
"That is equally true in relation to Muslims as it is to Christians. And vice versa."
My point exactly Mac.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 08:00 AM

A link was given Jim.
You point out the Catholic background of the author, but can not challenge anything he writes.
It is all true, yet mainstream journalists will not touch the story.
Why?
They report individual atrocities, but never the bigger picture that is an ongoing extermination.

Again you express outrage at what you allege is persecution by the Catholic Church, but the same old indifference to real, unrelenting persecution and extermination, because the hapless, friendless, poverty stricken victims pray to Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 08:40 PM

Keith seems to struggle with his arguments. He says I am on the left.

No idea what he is trying to infer by that but many on Mudcat.org reckon I am a dirty rotten bleeding capitalist.

It's true too.

What was your point? We can't have the likes of Bridge reading that I sit in an adjacent armchair. ......

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 10:26 PM

Religious persecution is something different from the various requirements religions may make of adherents, sometimes reflected in civil laws where such adherents are in a majority. And it is not to be confused with the situation where religious organisations may be associated with governments that are politically or economically repressive.

Plenty to criticise there, whether we are talking about Protestant fundamentalists in the USA, Catholic bishops in South America, Mullahs in Iran, or monks in Burma. But persecution of religious minorities is significantly different, and it is best to recognise the difference.

It's analogous in a way to the distinction between xenophobia and racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 02:43 AM

Musket, you refer to this comment.

"The indifference to their suffering by those on the left, like Jim and Musket (but not McGrath let it be said), disgraces them."

Both you and Jim felt the need to challenge that you on the left, but not that you are indifferent to the suffering of people who happen to be Christians.

What was your point?
That you lack compassion.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:08 AM

Yeah that's me. I lack compassion.

Although the million and one Jung type character profiling exercises the public sector put me through reckon otherwise.

But you must be right. After all, you keep telling us you are.

Excuse me whilst I shut a few wards and knock off a few old biddies by underfunding. I never wanted to put something back when I sold up and retired. Perhaps the little baby jesus made me do it.

Zzzzzzzz



I was riding on an elephant earlier. My mind was wandering as it does. I saw a temple in the clearing of the jungle and my mind went to the "what is the best religion" thread. At that point my elephant decided to have a shit. No big deal except the angle of my seat meant I almost fell in it.

I reckon that Buddha chap was telling me something? Back in Bangkok on Thursday. He can keep more of an eye on me there. More ruddy temples than there are obscenely rich Catholic churches in Malta.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:24 AM

You have shown none at all here Musket.
Likewise Jim, Greg and Don.
That was my point.

You could have just abstained.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:02 AM

Yeah but bad enough you think you are right but without intelligent people pointing and laughing at you, you'd be unbloodybearable.

Anyway, nice to be almost on the side of Mr Carroll for a change. My detractor's detractor and all that.

Abstaining is seen by shallow people as agreeing. Ever seen a UK government with 51% of all possible votes? I'd hate to think you have a mandate to talk bollocks on behalf of the church.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:27 AM

So, what was I wrong about on this thread Musket, and what is there to laugh about?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 06:53 AM

Ah. The deconstruction of the word laugh.

Wondered what your next distraction would be.

Persecution is awful. Christian persecution is hilarious. Why? Because it is about as much a topic as persecution of people with an odd number of moles on their arse.

If you started a thread about people being persecuted for their belief you would draw intelligent responses I suppose but your agenda is loud and clear. Pointing and laughing is about you, not the people killed and maimed whom you see as fodder to push a sectarian point.

This is about relevance of one cult as opposed to others to society, not counting the baptism certificates of victims of hate. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 07:41 AM

Excuse my enquiring, Musket [esp in such terms as I am about to use, much opposed to my general principle with regard to the content & expression of my posts], but

WHAT THE FUCKING SHITTY BUMHOLES ARE YOU ON ABOUT?

Just asking...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:00 AM

If you started a thread about people being persecuted for their belief you would draw intelligent responses

I did, but I got you.

If persecution of people with an odd number of moles on their arse was happening, no compassionate person would find it hilarious.

Christians are being persecuted to the point of extermination because of their belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:11 AM

"If you started a thread about people being persecuted for their belief you would draw intelligent responses"

"I did, but I got you."

ZING!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:58 AM

If you started a thread about people being persecuted for their belief you would draw responses undoubtedly there would be some of the other variety. Regardless of the religious identity of the persecuted minority. I suppose if they were Muslim the identity of the people reacting with hostility might be different, but the essential message would be more or less the same.

The word "cult" in this context, as I pointed out, is perceived, and I suggest, intended, as offensive. Of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 10:49 AM

"You have shown none at all here Musket.
Likewise Jim, Greg and Don."
On the contrary - we have condemned all forms of religious persecution - you only want to discuss the persecution of Christians by Muslims - the old usual of Muslim bashing.
You have denied the persecution BY Christians and have done your level, undemocratic best to allow us even to discuss what we believe to be the cause of all religious persecution - the enormous power possessed by some Churches over the minds and bodies of its followers.
Your mate has waffled on in the background attempting to make persecution by the Christian Church a thing of the past and not large enough (at this present time) to be counted as real persecution - it is neither - it is happening now and it remains a threat where eny religion has influential access to our and our childrens' minds (and bodies - as has been proved by long-term and ongoing revelations)
Compassion is more than empty hand-wringing - it is genuinely wanting to do something about it.
It is certainly not about attempting to use the persecution of the people of one faith to denigrate and persecute the devotees of another
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 11:31 AM

Well. That flushed out a few bigots.

I really am proud of Musket.

Very early on in this thread, Keith said he didn't notice much agreement just hate.

Methinks he doesn't understand debate. The object of the exercise isn't to read sycophantic agreement and idiots fighting your corner for you, it is to explore.

I have explored and like many have concluded that this thread was nothing to do with the awful plight of people in what Keith's fellow UKIP members call Bongo Bongo Land but far more to do with UK Christians moaning about normal people not being taken in by their group nonsense any more.

Every time someone ill informed idiot tells me this is a Christian country, I tell them it can't be because I was born here. So was my mate Tahir.

Mind you , I could agree there is more press coverage of Christian persecution. Sells newspapers and frightens the white majority.

Also, there may well be more persecution of Christians overall this year, but it would be a guess. The only figures quoted here are opinion column inches in the Tory press.

Either state your agenda or fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 11:58 AM

Imagine for a moment that I have no hidden agenda.
Just imagine that what I say here is indeed what I actually feel.

Persecution of any group is abhorrent.
Religious persecution no less so.

I singled out Christians because they are said to be suffering most and their plight under reported.

We should be able to agree on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 12:57 PM

"Imagine for a moment that I have no hidden agenda."
Nah - rather read Ray Bradbury's fantasy stories.
"We should be able to agree on this."
Matter of pinion whether this is the case or whether the long-term persecution of all those living in countries with a religious agenda are not all suffering equally.
You have not only refused to discuss this, but have done your best to stop the rest of us from dealing with it - even to deny the fact that there is no persecution within Christian nations.
You suggested that if I don't like living in a Catholic country, why don't I move.
Why not suggest that Christians who don't like living in aMuslim countries move somewhere else?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 02:45 PM

None of that is actually true Jim.
The Irish people are free to choose their laws.
You can't blame the Church for their choice.

I have put up why I believe minority Christians are by far the most persecuted, their numbers dwindling from flight and killing.

No-one has challenged any of it, just sneered that they deserve it, and that it is hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:00 PM

We've been here - you've had examples of church influenced laws
Are you saying the lady who died because of "living in a Catholic country" was to blame fr her own death for not moving away?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 06:52 PM

Ireland is a free and democratic country.
Its laws are are created in an elected parliament by secular politicians and interpreted by an independent judiciary, and they apply equally to all.
You and I might think some of them unreasonable.
We can agree on that, but not that it represents any kind of persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 07:46 PM

your level, undemocratic best to allow us even to discuss what we believe to be the cause of all religious persecution - the enormous power possessed by some Churches over the minds and bodies of its followers.

I'm puzzled by what Jim means by saying Keith has been doing his best in an undemocratic way not to allow discussion of such matters. (Well you actually say the opposite, but I assume that "not" got accidentally left out. ) That would imply that he had been doing something more than making posts here, or that he possesses or seeks to exert some kind of power over how the Mudcat is operated.

As for the suggestion that the cause of all religious persecution is the enormous power possessed by some Churches, I take it that the term "Churches" is used in an unusual sense to refer to any kind of religious organisation or movement whether Christian or whatever.   Even so, I'm very doubtful if that stands up to examination. A far more powerful cause of most persecution of religious minorities lies in popular prejudice against people who are seen as different. As is the case with persecution of other "outsiders". "Churches" can act in such as way as to encourage or to oppose this. Either way its origins are elsewhere, and have very little indeed to do with religious beliefs, either of persecutors or victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 03:15 AM

"Ireland is a free and democratic country."
You choose not to comment on the death of a young woman who denied a life-saving operation because of Christian inspired laws.
You continue to deny the power of a Church that inspired those laws and continue to chant your moronic mantra, despite the fact that she was told by a member of the hospital staff that the operation could not be performed because "Ireland is a Catholic country".
AND YOU OPT FOR "NO COMMENT" ON HER CHRISTIAN INSPIRED DEATH
And you dare claim that it is we who are lacking in compassion.
I note from last night's news that MI5 is concerned that young British Muslims are joining the Syrian opposition to fight Assad.
The Christian West declares itself satisfied that Assad will stop using poison gas and that the Syrian regime can return to its former actions of slaughtering all opposition by conventional means while we stand by and do nothing.
This is the scenario for the Syrian situation expanding into a Holy War which could involve us all - maybe with 'Keith the Lionheart' giving it for Christianity.
Damn them all - bigots and fanatics all, the lot of them - you couldn't squeeze a credit card between their god-inspired morality.
"Keith has been doing his best in an undemocratic way"
Throughout this discussion Keith has strenuously attempted to prevent discussion on "Christian Persecution" to include persecution by Christians, using "thread drift" as his argument.
That is an undemocratic attempt, repeated over and over again, to manipulate discussion away from the bits that he is unable to cope with, and it is one he has used persistently for years.
It is not conducive to free and open discussion on a public forum.
He has persistently attempted to undermine my personal position, not just here, but on at least half a dozen other threads by suggesting that I cannot be taken seriously because I chose to leave Britain and move to Ireland, therefore I must "hate Britain".
This is a deliberate attempt to negate what I have to say rather than to counter if with argument - a classic weapon of oppression.
both of these have occurred so often that I have been forced to request publicly that he stops both of these squalid tactics.
Keith's continued behaviour both undermines all our rights to take these discussions to wherever we, as members of this forum, wish to take them, and it undermines my personal rights to give an opinion by using smear and innuendo.
I won't even begin to talk about his long term proprietorially taking over of threads and his filibustering tactics which have set dozens of them to their 'Death-of-a-Thousand-Posts'.
You may wish to describe this as "democratic" - maybe I've missed something!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 03:22 AM

I chose to leave Britain and move to Ireland, therefore I must "hate Britain"
No.
Your hatred of Britain is revealed in your posts and your turning every thread into a platform to attack us.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 04:44 AM

I was married in church last August.
We were both divorcees.

CofE says this.
Everyone is welcome to have a baptism at a christening service in their parish church. There are around 10, 000 babies and children baptized in the Church of England every month. Every service is a time of joyful celebration and thanksgiving.

During the christening service your baby will be baptized. Your child is precious to you and precious to God. At baptism you make a decision to start your child on a journey of faith. The church and the Godparents support the family and the child in this decision.
Read more about Baptism

Weddings

Bride and Groom marriage blessing

Today more than a quarter of all marriages in England take place before God in the traditional setting of a Church of England church. You're welcome to marry in church whatever your beliefs, whether or not you are baptised and whether or not you go to church.
Read more about Weddings
http://www.churchofengland.org/weddings-baptisms-funerals.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 05:18 AM

Your hatred of Britain is revealed in your posts and your turning every thread into a platform to attack us."
You have reverted to lying abut something you have never been able to show is the case - even you claim to my reference to racism in Britain has been debunked by a recent Daily Mail report that one third of Britons admit to holding and openly expressing racist views.
you have also reverted to referring to my British birth and citizenship in terms of "you" and "us".
Thank you for providing such clear and underhanded examples to your attitude to free speech and honest argument on this forum
As I have reuested before, please do not continue with this shitty, bullying and undemocratic behaviour.
You refuse to even refer to the death of a young woman, caused by Christian dogma and church pressure.
You are an openly and obvious inhuman shit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 05:29 AM

As a general observation, my compassion is inclusive. It is for every persecuted minority, without exception and without reference to the race, creed, or colour of the persecuting majority, or the presence or absence of valuable natural resources.

Certain others may shout loudly about their claimed compassion for their fellow man, yet be strangely selective about which fellow man is deserving of that compassion.

Don T.