BS: Christian Persecution

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:46 AM

'Pathetic' rt back 2U, Ian. If your animadversion is to have any force, you had better specify where you find this 'pathos', or wherein you perceive it as lying.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:57 AM

"No racism in that."
You racism was in implicating an entire racial group with your "implant" claims
You have never read enough to pass an opinion on culture - you are a racist half-wit (aren't all racists?)
Your continuing confirmation that your views haven't changed is much appreciated - you remain a racist half wit.
Never mind - you appear to have at least one soul-mate in Mike
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 03:05 AM

Jim the quotes are on this thread (starting 24th October 2013 4.44AM) AND THEY DO BLAME THE CULTURE.
NOT ME, THEM.
I see no reason to disbelieve them.
You will not tell us why you disbelieve, except you deny it is because of their race.

Culture effects us all.
No racism in that.
I am no racist, have never made a racist post, and you have no cause to make those vicious accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 07:36 AM

It wouldn't be Aldi own brand would it perchance Michael?

I ask because I don't understand your last post, but as the random pressing of keys spelt my name out, I thought it best to get clarification.

Keith A Hole of Hertford keeps saying Chridtians don't massacre Muslims. Someone picked one of the many reports from BBC and posted it. Rather than acknowledging it, he waffled on changing the subject.

That's what I called pathetic. I could have said the sky contains clouds but focused for once.

Aldi is stronger than the others. Tesco do one that gives less liquor mortise.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:07 AM

Keith A Hole of Hertford keeps saying Chridtians don't massacre Muslims.

I have never made such a claim.
I have repeatedly asked for examples to be produced.
I do claim that Christians are suffering persecution more than any other group in recent years, and evidence of that has been presented.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:34 AM

It is probable that massacres of Muslims have occurred in recent days in CAR, but none have been reported yet.
The current sectarian violence there started when Muslim militia massacred Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Not musket
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:36 AM

Not reporters and journalists have not reported the not happened massacres of Muslims that don't exist.

Give it up Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:37 AM

Huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:45 AM

"I have never made such a claim."
By asking such a question, you imply they don't - you know bloody well Christians perscute anybody they are allowed to when they are allowed to, as does most religions.
By the way - you have yet to show anybody having claimed "all male Pakistanis - implants"
I doubt if it has escaped anybody's notice that you are responding to a question you haven't been asked.
Nobody has asked you your opinion on culture, you aren't qualified and are far too bigoted to have anything to say on what is an extremely complicated subject.
You claimed all Pakistanis were implanted - nobody else did - you haven't a clue how culture works; you need to have read a book for that - sorry
Please stop trying to wriggle out of your racist statement by diverting the discussion aaway from it

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:50 AM

Two items from today's Irish Times
I don't suppose for one moment that persecution by Christians counts for much in your book (and it certainly won't raise a twitch on your nodding dog's sliding scale), but below is an indication that the Christian clerical abuse shit has hit the U.K. fan and is likely to run and run
Jim Carroll

BROTHERS APOLOGISE FOR ABUSE AND SUFFERING OF BOYS IN THEIR CARE

SISTERS OF NAZARETH 'APPALLED AND SHOCKED' BY TESTIMONY GIVEN ABOUT THEIR ORDER

DAN KEENAN in Banbridge
The De La Salle Brothers have apologised unreservedly for abuse and suffering inflicted on children in their care.
The inquiry into historical abuse at a range of residential care homes in Northern Ireland heard senior counsel for the reli¬gious order offer the apology yesterday during the second day of oral hearings.
Kevin Rooney QC, for the De La Salle Brothers, said: "Broth¬ers recognise the immense pain and suffering and damage caused to those victims who have been abused."
He added: "Brothers recog¬nise the sense of betrayal that the victims have experienced and the violation of trust caused by certain brothers with¬in the order. They recognise that there have been failures to protect the victims.
"De La Salle order deeply re¬grets the acts of some of its members which have irrepara¬bly damaged the reputation of the order and undermines the selfless care provided by so many of the brothers in pursu¬ance of their vocation."
The coming months will not be easy for the brothers or for victims, he told the inquiry.
Further admissions
The inquiry, chaired by Sir An¬thony Hart, also heard admis¬sions from senior counsel on be¬half of a second religious order. Turlough Montague QC, repre¬senting the Sisters of Nazareth, said members of the order were "appalled and shocked" by some of the testimonies that have come to light so far.
The sisters "have already be¬gun their period of reflection on the past".
"Former residents have come to them over the past number of years to tell them of their unhappiness in their homes and they have been ap¬palled and shocked at the state¬ments of those persons who have come before the inquiry to date to tell of their experiences in their homes," Mr Montague said.
"I also wish to state on behalf of the Sisters of Nazareth that they recognise the hurt that has been caused to some children in their care. They apologise un¬reservedly for any abuse suf¬fered by children in their care. They go forward hoping that les¬sons will be learned not just by them in the provision of care but also by carers generally in society and the wider society at large."
Moira Smyth, appearing for the North's Health and Social Care Board, told the inquiry's chairman: "Where the board failed to meet acceptable stand¬ards for the care and upbring¬ing of children in institutions, and that resulted in wrongdo¬ing, the board is sorry and of¬fers its apologies to the individu¬als concerned."
BETTER FUTURE
The sharing of experiences and close scrutiny of those in institu¬tions should assist in develop¬ing a better future for children who live in residential care, she said.
Short opening statements were also made by representa¬tion for other agencies or bod¬ies - the so-called core partici¬pants in the inquiry. These in¬clude children's charity Bar nardos, the Stormont Depart¬ment of Justice and Depart¬ment of Health, Social Services and Public Safety.
LEARNING FROM PAST
Claire Bates, for Barnardos, said the organisation was com¬mitted to learning from the past.
Francis O'Reilly, represent¬ing the Stormont Department of Health, said access by the in¬quiry to records was granted without hesitation and further assistance would be freely giv¬en.
For the Department of Jus¬tice, Martin Wolfe pledged "co-operation and openness", adding that a collegiate re¬sponse by all "core partici¬pants" would help ensure the in¬quiry met its objectives.
Sir Anthony said the next public hearing of the inquiry on January 27th would address two residential institutions in Derry in accordance with the in¬quiry's plan to deal with evi¬dence in "modules".
The first witnesses are expected to be heard on January 28th.


NORTHERN CARE HOMES 'SURVIVORS OF A BYGONE AGE'
DAN KEENAN
The North's residential care homes were reminiscent of "a bygone age" that had not moved with the times, an in¬quiry into historical abuse in Co Down has heard.
Senior counsel for the inquiry Christine Smith QC told the sec¬ond day of public hearings: "The evidence suggests that those homes operated as outdated survivors of a bygone age."
Reforms aligned with the in¬troduction of the welfare state in Britain after the second World War were not fully imple¬mented, she said.
She illustrated this by refer¬ring to one unnamed witness who has given details to the in¬quiry of her treatment at the hands of residential home workers following bed-wetting incidents. This witness said that, as a child, she had had her nose rubbed in the wet mat¬tress and forced to take a cold baths using Jeyes Fluid, Ms Smith told the inquiry.
The senior counsel had been outlining the historical and leg¬islative background to child¬care during the years 1922 to 1995, the years under examina¬tion by the inquiry under its terms of reference.
HISTORICAL ENVIRONMENT
During the final day of her open¬ing submission to the inquiry, Ms Smith detailed the histori¬cal and legal environment in which 13 residential care institu¬tions under examination by the inquiry evolved.
The inquiry "will be a lengthy and at times difficult process", Ms Smith warned. She went on to pose a range of questions that she said went to the heart of the inquiry's task.
The issue is whether the facts point to systems failure in insti¬tutions responsible for the care of vulnerable children, she said.
"What was known, by whom, when and what was done about it?" she asked. "What steps were taken to avoid repetition, were police involved and, if not, why not?"
She said the inquiry needed to establish what abuse, if any, took place in homes. Future hearings would examine what abuse was alleged and how com¬plaints were addressed at institu¬tional and governmental level.
Accommodation provision for children would be exam¬ined. Questions would be asked if such facilities were adequate and kept in repair, and whether siblings were allowed to stay to¬gether.
She said funding arrangements would be investigate; and how, if at all, state and vol¬untary institutions differed ii their funding arrangements. It was important to examine how much reliance there was on charitable donations and whether there was any difference to per capita payments and the state and other institution;
BACKGROUND CHECKS
Staffing levels, the adequacy training, vetting and background checks would all co: within the remit of the inquiry.
Issues relating to healthcare, illness and injury care would also arise, she said, as would the levels of health qualification among staff charged with looking after children.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:07 AM

I imply no such thing Jim.
I just said I believe such massacres have happened.

Nobody has asked you your opinion on culture,

Good, because I have not the knowledge to form one.
The people I quote do, and I ask again why you refuse to believe them.

If they are right, the offending is due to the culture, and we are ALL influenced by our culture.

Where is the racism?
Where the justification for all that vile abuse?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 10:47 AM

"Good, because I have not the knowledge to form one."
Please stop stating the glaringly obvious
"The people I quote do, and I ask again why you refuse to believe them."
The people you have quoted have stressed that there is no proven connection whatever between underage sex and it would be wrong and totally irresponsible to make such a connection.
The police, judiciary and social workers said exactly the same, as did the limited official survey that was carried out a couple of years ag 'no evidence exists to state that there is a connection between these crimes and the religion or race of the criminals'
Yet you have made such a connection over and over again and you continue to do so - one again, read your owbn cut-'n-pastes.
Get your nasty little arse and try to recognise the damage you do to the people you accuse of being "implanted" - would you like to live next door to someone who is likely to sexually assault young girls if they "didn't manage yo suppress their urges".
If you don't care about this - give a thought to the mind-numbing exhibition you have presented of yourself.
Saying any community is "implanted" as you have is utterly evil racism, that is what you said and that is what you are continuing to say.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 11:27 AM

The people I quoted all state clearly that the offending is due to the culture, and we are ALL influenced by our culture.

No racism there.
No justification for all your vile abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 11:32 AM

The people I quoted all state clearly that the offending is due to the culture...

Just like "all historians" agreed with you in the WWI thread, right Keith? Idiot.

Jim, you're trying to teach the pig to sing, again.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:02 PM

"The people I quoted all state clearly that the offending is due to the culture, and we are ALL influenced by our culture."
The people you quoted said that it would be totally wrong to draw any racial or religious culture conclusions on the existing evidence.
You have been given Jack Straw's statement on "testosterone fizzing young men" - want it again?
You have been given the statement of those who carried out the official survey on the absence of evidence to show any connection between those involved in underage sex and their race and culture - want it again?
You have been given the statements by the north of England and Scottish police and judiciary saying it would be wrong to draw either racial or religious conclusions on the behaviour of a handful of criminals - want them again?
You've had the statements of the others on the same lines - same offer
I'm in the process of digging out the statements of the others - shouldn't take too long
For a self confessed ignoramous on the matter of culture, you take an awful lot on yourself by contradicting your own witnesses.
YOUR RACISM LIES IN YOUR DOING SO - AND IN DESCRIBING "EVERY MALE PAKISTANI AS A POTENTIAL PAEDOPHILE - WHICH YOU ARE NOW TRYING TO SHUFFLE AROUND
You are a crude, thuggish, unintelligent racist Keith - but keep it up, it's pleasurable allowing to to prove it - as the lady said "you'll never eat lunch in this town again", you've made certain of that yourself and the longer you continue with this farce the truer that becomes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:17 PM

Mandy Rice-Davies.

Now, um, er,

--whatever could have put her into my mind, I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:35 PM

These are the people you have based your entire case on and the circumstances in which they said whatever they said
The refer only to the "rape gangs", (ie, the handful of criminals that have been involved in pimping women for sec NOT THE PAKISTANI, MUSLIM CULTURE, NOT "ALL MALE PAKISTANIS", NOBODY ELSE OTHER THAN THE CRIMINALS INVOLVED. Single-handedly you have taken the statements arising from this case and you have deliberately set out to slur the entire Pakistani male in British - every male Pakistani on this planet, in fact
Nowhere have any of your "witnesses" said what you have claimed them to have said, in fact, at one time or the other (as with your Irish famine "witnesses") they have said exactly the opposite.
Nowhere has any single one of them ever made the statements you have attributed to them - you have carefully doctored your evidence in an attempt to prove your horrific suggestion - 'there is no Pakistani Muslim on this planet who can be trusted near an underage woman'.
That, as far as I am concerned, is an act of pure evil on your part, a level to which even the lowest of the low racist sites would not dare to sink to.
You have deliberately ignored (not even denied) what has actually been said and invented your own scenario by selection and distortion
You are a truly evil bastard
Jim Carroll

Muslims back Jack Straw on Pakistani rape gangs
'These young men do not see white girls as equal, as valuable as they see their sisters,' says Muslim leader
BY Tim Edwards LAST UPDATED AT 07:32 ON Tue 11 Jan 2011
Jack Straw is not looking quite as lonely as he was last Friday when he made the controversial statement that there was a "specific problem" involving British men of Pakistani descent grooming young white girls for sex because they think they are "easy meat".
An initial burst of outrage, led by fellow Labour MP Keith Vaz, has been followed by more sympathetic statements from Muslim commentators and women's rights campaigners.
Straw, the MP for Blackburn, made his comments after the jailing of two men of Pakistani heritage, Mohammed Liaqat and Abid Saddique, for abusing girls between the ages of 12-18
whom they had plucked off the streets of Derby.
Leicester Crown Court had heard how the two men, both married fathers, were part of a gang of "sexual predators" who cruised the streets, approaching white women as young as 12, who they then plied with drink and drugs before grooming them for sex.
Straw told the BBC: "These young men... act like any other young men, they're fizzing and popping with testosterone, they want some outlet for that, but Pakistani heritage girls are off-limits and they are expected to marry a Pakistani girl from Pakistan, typically.
"So they then seek other avenues and they see these young women, white girls who are vulnerable, some of them in care... who they think are easy meat."
Straw's remarks were criticised as "pretty dangerous" by Keith Vaz, while others went further, accusing him of acting as a recruitment
officer for far-right groups.
Martin Narey, chief executive of Barnardos, said: "I certainly
don't think it's just a Pakistani thing. My staff would say there is
an over-representation of people from ethnic minority groups among perpetrators - Afghans, people from Arabic nations, Pakistanis. But it's not just one nation."
But Straw is now receiving support, not least from members of the
Asian community.
Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Muslim Ramadhan Foundation youth group, said: "These young men do not see white
girls as equal, as valuable, of high moral standing as they see their
own daughters, and their own sisters, and I think that's wrong. It's a form of racism that's abhorrent in a civilised society."
"I first raised this two or three years ago and I got a lot of stick
within the community from people who said I was doing the work of the BNP and stigmatising them."
The feminist Muslim journalist Yasmin Alibhai-Brown has also backed
Straw. Writing in the Independent about the Derby gang she says: "The criminals feel they did no wrong. These girls to them are trash, asking to be wasted – unlike their own women, who must be kept from the disorderly world out there."
She calls on Asians to examine "what lies beneath these crimes".
Earlier, Ann Cryer, former Labour MP for Keighley, West Yorkshire, who campaigns for women's rights, said Straw should be commended for bringing up a problem which, she claimed, Muslim MPs were not prepared to confront.
Said Cryer: "The vast majority of young Asian men are fine, but there's a minority who do not behave properly towards white women and sweeping it under the carpet will only make matters worse. If these Asian men behaved in the same way to young Muslim girls they'd end up in very hot water in their community."
Even before Straw made his provocative statement, there were calls for an inquiry into the racial basis of gangs who groom underage girls for sex on the street.
Last week the Times published its own survey into the ethnicity of those convicted of on-street grooming. It found that over the past 13 years there had been 17 court prosecutions by northern and Midlands police forces involving such crimes.
Of the 56 people found guilty, three were white and 53 were Asian.
Detective Chief Inspector Alan Edwards said: "To stop this type of
crime you need to start talking about it, but everyone's been too
scared to address the ethnicity factor.
"No one wants to stand up and say that Pakistani guys in some parts of the country are recruiting young white girls and passing them around their relatives for sex, but we need to stop being worried about the racial complication."
The Home Office says that officials from the Child Exploitation and
Online Protection Centre (CEOP) are currently looking at the issue but it is an ongoing inquiry and may not be looking into whether there is any link to ethnicity. CEOP, says the Home Office, will report back "in due course".

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:49 PM

No offense, but as an occasional reader of this thread, could you post some stuff in a baby blue or perhaps a chartreuse? I find the red has too many overtones alluding to politics. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:59 PM

Michael would say that, wouldn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 01:13 PM

"I find the red has too many overtones alluding to politics. Thank you."
Sorry - not intended - I'll try green next time, but wouldn't help Keith read what's posted any better - would it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:41 PM

Perhaps it's time to nowc this on the head altogether
"Alibhai-Brown, Lord Ahmed, and Mohamed Shafiq were the ones I quoted at length (apart from Anne Cryer, Jack Straw and the Pakistani Ch4 journalist)."

Other witnesses
Ann Cryer
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1436867.stm

"Lord Ahmed,
Nazir Ahmed, Baron Ahmed (born 24 April 1957) is a member of the British House of Lords. He was appointed on the recommendation of Prime Minister Tony Blair in 1998. Along with Lord Alli, Baroness Warsi and Baroness Uddin, Lord Ahmed is one of the four current Muslim peers in the United Kingdom. Many of his political activities relate to the Muslim community both in the UK and abroad and he has often attracted controversy. He was suspended for a time from the Labour Party in 2012 after he was misquoted as placing a bounty on U.S. President Barack Obama and former President George W. Bush.
In 2013, Lord Ahmed was suspended again, this time for antisemitism; stemming from a report in The Times that he blamed a Jewish conspiracy for a prison sentence he received following a fatal motorway crash. The newspaper revealed that he appeared on Pakistani television and stated that he was imprisoned in 2009 because of pressure on the courts from Jews "who own newspapers and TV channels". He resigned from the Labour Party on 13 May."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazir_Ahmed,_Baron_Ahmed
This doesn't mention that he threatened to invade Westminster with a thousand Muslims if a piece of legislation he was opposing was passed.
Clearly a man to be listened to and respected -


Mohamed Shafik
Shafiq says that a "tiny minority" of Pakistani men feel white girls are worthless and immoral — and can be abused with impunity.
"They know if they took someone from the Asian community, it pretty quickly is going to be found out," he says. "But those white girls are available, so they think they can get away with it."
The men in the Rochdale sex ring were remarkable only in their ordinariness. They were part of British life, but on the fringes — the sort of people most Britons don't really notice when they pass them on the street."

How are we doing so far - more to come
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:44 PM

Jim and Greg, if you read the quotes you will see that you are wrong and I am right.

The people I quoted all state clearly that the offending is due to the culture, and we are ALL influenced by our culture.

Your cut/paste in black text supports exactly my case.

"Jack Straw is not looking quite as lonely as he was last Friday when he made the controversial statement that there was a "specific problem" involving British men of Pakistani descent grooming young white girls for sex because they think they are "easy meat".
An initial burst of outrage, led by fellow Labour MP Keith Vaz, has been followed by more sympathetic statements from Muslim commentators and women's rights campaigners."

"But Straw is now receiving support, not least from members of the
Asian community.
Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Muslim Ramadhan Foundation youth group, said: "These young men do not see white
girls as equal, as valuable, of high moral standing as they see their
own daughters, and their own sisters, and I think that's wrong. It's a form of racism that's abhorrent in a civilised society."
"I first raised this two or three years ago and I got a lot of stick
within the community from people who said I was doing the work of the BNP and stigmatising them."
The feminist Muslim journalist Yasmin Alibhai-Brown has also backed
Straw. Writing in the Independent about the Derby gang she says: "The criminals feel they did no wrong. These girls to them are trash, asking to be wasted – unlike their own women, who must be kept from the disorderly world out there."
She calls on Asians to examine "what lies beneath these crimes".
Earlier, Ann Cryer, former Labour MP for Keighley, West Yorkshire, who campaigns for women's rights, said Straw should be commended for bringing up a problem which, she claimed, Muslim MPs were not prepared to confront.
Said Cryer: "The vast majority of young Asian men are fine, but there's a minority who do not behave properly towards white women and sweeping it under the carpet will only make matters worse. If these Asian men behaved in the same way to young Muslim girls they'd end up in very hot water in their community."
Even before Straw made his provocative statement, there were calls for an inquiry into the racial basis of gangs who groom underage girls for sex on the street."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:46 PM

And another horrific set of convictions today.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:49 PM

Many thanks, Jim. Green would be great. If it's any encouragement, you and I have locked horns on a few occasions, but never once did you argue in red print. I have always liked you for that. I argued with you in white print which saves me lord knows how many pixels. That way we both walk away feeling better ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:58 PM

Keith:

Jim has quite obviously shot himself in the foot*. I can't believe he is quite so insensitive and uncomprehending as not to see that.

~M~


(*I expect it is quite big from the exercise he gives it, putting it in 'it' - whatever the 'it' is into which one proverbially puts one's foot).

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 06:08 PM

if you read the quotes you will see that you are wrong and I am right.

OF COURSE you're right, Keith. You're ALWAYS right, and the WHOLE WORLD - "all the people, "all the historians", the whole goddamn creation & etc. - agrees with you, so how cold you POSSIBLY be wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 06:41 PM

Greg, forget the sarcasm and read the quotes.
Then tell me what I have got wrong, if you can!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:25 PM

Waddaya want from me, Keith? I said you're right. Damn near infallible.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 02:09 AM

I am on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 04:15 AM

"You will see that I am right and you are wrong".

"I am on this."

One of the wonderful aspects of self righteous idiots is that they genuinely think that the other side of an argument would agree with them if only they read what they read. It doesn't occur to Keith A Hole of Hertford that different conclusions can be drawn from the same text.

After all, if you don't think, walk, talk and go for a shit in the same way as Keith A Hole of Hertford, don't bother trying to confuse him with reasonable analysis of fact.

zzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 04:57 AM

"Your cut/paste in black text supports exactly my case."
It does no such thing - even if it did, why on earth ignore the bit in red text.
It points out that the crimes being discussed are those of a tiny minority of young criminals and there is no evidence whatever to link them to either the religion or the race of those criminals - Jack Straw, the judiciary, the police, the social workers the enqiry into the connection between race, culture and criminality have all stated this over and over again
You and your friend's attitude has, on the other hand, attempted to brand every single member of the British Muslim community as "implanted" perverts and potential terrorists - slaves to their "culture", though neither of you have ever attempted to show which particular aspects of that culture have made them what they are.
Straw and British authorities specifically warned against the acts a "tiny minority of criminals" being used against the Muslim population as a whole - that is exactly what you have done and are continuing to do here.
The above article includes this warning, yet you are claiming it as my having "shot myself in the foot" - what school did you go to Mike - tell us again?
For several years now Keith has openly used this forum as a platform for race and cultural hate.
He has deliberately and openly attempted to present the Muslim population, and Islam as a whole as terrorists and potential sexual perverts, the only reason that their perversions haven't materialised being that some have managed to resist their "implant" - the stuff horror science is made of - they are all "Manchurian Candidates in our midst.
Single handedly he took over, drifted and dominated the largest hate thread on this forum; it was started by someone pointing out that Muslim prejudice had become "a respectable form of bigotry in Britain" - Keith turned it into a sewer of hate directed against a community of a million plus human beings who are recognised as being quiet, respectable, industrious and desirous of bettering themselves educationally
As British citizens - they have recently been officially recognised as being the ethnic community who have most likely to embrace British citizenship, despite being among the most deprived and persecuted.
Despite this fact - it was on this thread that Keith chose to depict them as implanted monsters.
On a later thread (the murdered soldier) he depicted them as potential terrorists ad killers - a potential terrorist enemy within.
Most recently he set out to prove that the Muslim threat was not just in Britain, but a world-wide one.
He scraped the bottom of the barrel by vehemently supporting one of the largest cut-'n-pastes presented on this forum, lifted directly from an openly Islamophobic/racist site.
He said he had examined many of the accusations of murder and persecution taken from that site, refused to present his findings challenged us to "disprove them" - most of them were untraceable and of those that weren't, only a tiny number carried any proof whatever that they were religiously inspired.
That has been the level of his "evidence" from the beginning of his campaign - he has had no supporters, other than Mike, who nips in and out whenever he gets in trouble, and 'little Boo Boo' wo does the donkey work in seeking out is seeking out such sites as 'Islamwatch', 'Jihadwatch' and 'White Supremacy' - all of which have provided 'evidence' during the course of these arguments.
Despite his lack of support, Keith has just openly declared himself "damn near infallible" on the question of the Muslim culture - how s that for "shooting yourself in the foot Mike"?
We are all surrounded by our various cultures.
None of us are slaves to it, as Keith would have us believe; we accept or reject the bits we like or dislike.
No-one is "implanted" with anything - we are not cultural zombies who have been turned into monsters.
Keith and Mike have chosen to ignore the official statements that THERE IS NOT A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE LINKING THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY A TINY MINORITY IN BRITAIN HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT THEY COME FROM ISLAMIC COMMUNITIES, OR THEY ARE MUSLIMS - DESPITE THE FACT THAT AN OFFICIALLY CARRIED OUT SURVEY SAID EXACTLY THAT AND WARNED AGAINST DRAWING ANY SUCH INFERENCES
How is that for "infallibility - from both of them?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 05:16 AM

Just an aside. The local newspaper is going to run with a letter this week, that was copied to the head of chaplaincy at the hospital, who gave me a heads up.

Embarrassingly for him and his multi faith team, a local councillor has written to say that we are a Christian country and only the Christian chaplains should be state funded and if members of foreign faiths want pastoral care, they should pay for it.

The saying that the Church of England is the Conservative party at prayer isn't quite so funny sometimes.....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:17 AM

I put article up to show that nowhere has anybody, social worker, politician, policeman, Muslim or whatever religion - ever sated at any time that 'Muslim culture is the cause of any crime in Britain' - which is not only the basic argument of Keith, Mike and their ilk, but has been expanded by Keith to include every single Muslim in Britain - the world, if his arguments are to be taken to their logical conclusion.
None of the people have made any such statement
Jack Straw points out that the opposite is the came - Muslim culture insists that there should be no sex whatever before marriage - a basic Muslim teaching.
Straw makes it clear that these crimes are the result of a "tiny group" of young criminals who have rejected Muslim teaching and have gone outside their own communities for sex to satisfy youthful sexual their urges.
Along with this defiance of Muslim law goes the drinking of alcohol and drug-taking, also forbidden.
Nobody would dare to suggest (apart from "infallible" Keith) that the crimes of pimping by a minority of this tiny minority, have anything whatever to do with being Muslim.
On the contrary, a built in fact of Muslim communities in Britain is adherence to the law - this has always been fully recognised and commented on by the British authorities.
The Muslim communities are and will remain the most law abiding nd peaceable in Britain.
It's up to Mike, "Infallible" Keith, and any other stray Islamophobe to prove that this is not so, not for us to disprove selected passages from carefully selected articles, the salient points of which are totally ignored anyway by this pair of Islamophobic clowns
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:35 AM

Nobody would dare to suggest (apart from "infallible" Keith) that the crimes of pimping by a minority of this tiny minority, have anything whatever to do with being Muslim.

I have stated just that all along, and right back on the original thread 2 years ago.

The people I quoted all state clearly that the offending is due to the culture, and we are ALL influenced by our culture.

No racism there.
No justification for all your vile abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:36 AM

3 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:44 AM

He said he had examined many of the accusations of murder and persecution taken from that site, refused to present his findings challenged us to "disprove them" - most of them were untraceable and of those that weren't, only a tiny number carried any proof whatever that they were religiously inspired.

All the items I checked were correct, and neither you nor anyone else was able to find one single false entry.
That suggests that it is probably mostly accurate, but that is only after two months of searching.
Good luck with it Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 11:04 AM

"All the items I checked were correct, and neither you nor anyone else was able to find one single false entry."
And you were never to show a true one.
All the items I checked were totally untraceable as being religiously inspired crimes.
Personally I can't be arsed with proving or disproving fascist sites - they are, by their very nature as untrustworthy as David Irving's conclusion on the Holocaust.
You support the claims, it's up to you to prove them and present your evidence, otherwise you are guilty of promoting unqualified information from a declared extremist Islamophobic site - no surprise there.
You have been shown the conclusions of your witnesses and have been able to produce one of them who attributes the crimes to being Muslim - no matter how many times you have claimed to have done.
Your repetition of your claims without showing they have makes you a moron - certainly not "infallible", which is indicative of your mental state rather than your being right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 11:13 AM

Whoops - didn't quite finish...
....which is indicative of your mental state rather than your being right, as is your wholehearted support for information dredged up from a fascist site.
You remain the only individual to claim that people from an entire culture is implanted to make them rape young girls - such a suggestion went out of fashion when they closed down the concentration camps and the human experimentation labs - such is the enormity of YOUR disgusting accusation.
Carry on goose-stepping
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 11:23 AM

Not Godwin's Law again? :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 11:26 AM

Keith, it proves he's wrong and exposes the untenability of his position so of course he has to deny it's veracity and the only way he can do that is to attack the site that compiled the list, not the events it catalogues - that's his usual MO when presented with facts that destroy his argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 01:36 PM

"Keith, it proves he's wrong and exposes the untenability"
How much light relief can we stand - my cup runneth over?
Hi Boo Boo
Would you like to verify anything on your site - no?
Thought not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 02:41 PM

Jim, if you could actually identify a false entry, we would have to concede.
That is the first time you have claimed that you found one.
Why did you not mention it before?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 03:12 PM

Worth repeating IMO one of my favourite quotations:

"Elinor agreed with it all, for she did not think he
deserved the compliment of rational opposition." ― Jane Austen, Sense and Sensibility ...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 03:23 PM

Good one Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 03:28 PM

Listen, you little prickeen
You have always been the first to reject information because it comes from a "Palestinian paper" or "is leftie shit" or even because it doesn't come a "real historian" - whatever that means.
Not so long ago your nodding-dog mate Mike the MacCathyite attempted to hold a 'un-British activities' - type interrogation to find out my political allegiances, no doubt in anticipation of using them as a substitute for having to answer for his support for Thatcher fascism, Islam-hatred - or whatever he needed a get-out - of -jail - free card for.
If you think you can dismiss other peoples sources out of hand when they don't suit your particular bigoted or racist agenda, we are certainly not going to accept your word on information you've sucked up from a fascist sewer site.
Nobody with an ounce common sense is either going to believe without proof a load of racist/bigoted garbage from a self-proclaimed Islamophobic web-site - and certainly, after your performances lately, nobody is going to take your word for anything, no matter how "infallible" you believe yourself to be.
You want us to believe your racist shit - prove it
If you read what other people posted you would be aware I have been saying that the majority of "facts" from your ultra right site are untraceable - as far back as it was posted I've tried to verify that they are genuine - we have no way of knowing if many of them are real or invented, and certainly not if they are sectarian crimes or ones committed for other reasons, where the perps happen to be Muslim
By the way - I'm as happy to keep this as long as you want - the more you refuse to respond to what's put in front of you and the more you repeat your moronic unproven and unacceptable statements, the better as far as I'm concerned - each time you post is another nail in yoour credibility coffin - as you can judge from the support you are getting for your "infallibility"
Keep it up - and live with the thought that one day you really are going to have to read something.
Oh, and - have a good night

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:45 PM

Jim, I did not accept that list without question.
I recognised some entries, and checked a few I did not recognise.
I found no false entries, and would be very surprised if you have.
I find it hard to believe.
Help me out by identifying a false entry, because you have been known to make stuff up.
What reason could you possibly have to withhold information that would make Bobad and me look silly?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:08 AM

"Help me out by identifying a false entry"
Keith,
I'll deal with this in two sections as you seem to have trouble coping with postings that contain more than two paragraphs - so lets get this one out of the way as quick as we can.
It's not mine, or anybody's job to disprove the vomiting of a racist site, it's the responsibility of those who believe and are prepared to circulate such garbage that it's true - you fit that bill perfectly.
Your Islamophobia has now escalated into overdrive - you seem to have lost control of yourself absolutely.
You now appear to have appointed yourself an unofficial (I assume unpaid) spokesman of a racist site dedicated to spreading race and religious hatred against Muslims.
You present their 'findings' as fact and refuse to defend their hate-filled outpourings, insisting that it is all true and it is our job to disprove the evidence you have yet to produce, and show no signs of giving us that evidence.
You have no supporters for your case; I don't really count Mike or Boo Boo - in the case of the former, too half-hearted and part-time in the latter - anybody who openly dips into extremist sites like Muslim-Watch, White Supremacy and Gatestone for their arguments is not to be taken too seriously and is certainly not a threat to anybody other than himself.
Despite your lack of support you have now declared your word on the subject of Islam to be only right but "infallible" - I think the Pope gave that up some time ago!
Get a grip laddie.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:37 AM

Jim, if neither of us, nor anyone else can find a false entry, it is probably mostly accurate.
Why did you claim to have found something?
I can remember many of the incidents, and I am sure you can too.

Picking at random one I cannot remember.
"1/28/2013         Turkey         Istanbul         1         0         An 85-year-old Christian woman is stabbed to death by an attacker who then carves a cross on her body."

It checks out.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2013/01/turkeys-armenians

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:57 AM

Another.
"2/18/2013         Somalia         Alanley         1         0         A 42-year-old Christian teacher and father of four is brutally executed by al-Shabaab outside his home."

http://morningstarnews.org/2013/02/christian-shot-dead-near-kismayo-somalia/

Your turn Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 11:25 AM

Part two
You may recall that some time ago you announced that it was your opinion (nobody else's) that all make Pakistanis were culturally implanted to incline them towards having sex with underage girls.
When you were challenged you first denied the implications of what you had written, but when pressed you invented supporters by distorting and editing what they had actually said, and claimed that it was only your opinion because it was theirs also - a strange enough stance in itself.
In the intervening period you have confirmed that this remains your opinion and that you are still prepared to defend it and re - state it - as you are doing now.
You have never at any time produced evidence of any of your 'supporters' ever making such a profoundly racist statement, but it doesn't really matter.
To suggest that an entire race/culture is culturally implanted the way you have is an incredibly racist statement, whoever makes it.
It is the type of claim that filled the Nazi gas-chambers and Mengele's laboratories - then it was that the Jews were culturally and racially inferior, now, it seems, it is the Muslims occupying that position.
In today's situation, it is the type of statement which promotes Mosque burnings, 'Paki bashing', petrol through letter-boxes.... everything that makes racism in Britain today the evil that it is.
It would make miserable and dangerous the lives of every Pakistani family living in Britain – it makes every male Pakistani a potential criminal by way of their culture – the ironic thing, of course is that if you made this claim outside tthe safe haven of the internet you would be committing a crime – the incitement of race hatred.
You have now dropped your mask and are circulating propaganda directly lifted from a Muslim hate site.
I have little doubt you will continue your campaign on this forum, in which case, each time you take over a thread and fill it with your bile, I will remind you of your "implant" statement, and will continue to do so until you stop – you have just given us your recent revelation that you believe yourself to be "infallible", so I look forward to our future meetings.
Jim Carroll


Link 1
Opinion remains divided as to whether these are organised hate crimes targeting non-Muslims or just random theft.

Link 2
The killers were SUSPECTED to be members of the Islamic extremist
Two down, only a thousand to go.