native americans took the land!!!!!!

Subject: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 12:29 PM

Get over it!

native Americans took the land from the earth mother, plants and animals etc....

then they started to kill and eat

then started pollution

We can thank the native americans for beginning the polution of the new world

then they went about taking land from each other before any european got there!

Sinnerss all just have thanksgiving that we survived!

Conrad

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 12:34 PM

That post is what happens as your last brain cell succumbs to disease. Let it be a lesson to all.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 12:42 PM

Ok dispute the facts then wise guy!

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 12:42 PM

Misanthropy is valid.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:24 PM

So, were the Indians responsible for the massive deforestation and the slaughter of countless herds of wildlife? How many species did they bring to extinction? How many exotic plants and animals and insects and diseases did they bring to America?

No, the Native Americans weren't perfect, but they made a much smaller footprint on the Americans, than the Europeans did.

This Thanksgiving, I think it's important for us all to remember Uncle Dave's Grace...

-Joe-

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 08:14 PM

They eliminated some of the edibles, such as the mammoth. But yes, the real damage started with Uncle Dave's antecedents.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 08:18 PM

Please Joe. Don't use logic in an argument like this - it would just be wasted.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 09:15 PM

So what else is new?

(Joe, look into "buffalo jumps" and the wastage associated therewith.)

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Noreen
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 11:09 PM

wiki : Buffalo jump

Thanks Rap- I didn't know about this.

And thanks, Joe, for Uncle Dave's Grace :)

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:58 AM

'So, were the Indians responsible for the massive deforestation and the slaughter of countless herds of wildlife?' ,,,,
.,,.,.
No, Joe: but, arguably, only cos they didn't have the resources. As a character in one of David Lodge's novels points out to a well-meaningly 'liberal progressive' fellow-guest, they were "the guys who would drive a whole herd of buffalo over a cliff just to get themselves a steak for dinner". He also asserted that Chief Seattle's supposed 1854 speech, about 'our belonging to the land, not the land to us', was actually the invention of a 1950s tv documentary scriptwriter.

I do not put these forward as clinching arguments ~~ I admit I haven't entirely researched the matter, just read 'Bury My Heart' &c, & my views are thus of necessity second-hand~~ but simply as points to consider.

~M~

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 01:42 AM

Bones 13 feet deep. Murderous bastards!!
=(:-( 0)

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:16 AM

I have heard it said of the Australian Aborigines that their contribution to Australia is that after 10,000 years of living there, they left the land just as they found it. (No small achievement)

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 04:36 AM

Are they cannibals?
=(:-( P)

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 06:29 AM

Are who cannibals Henry? The Aborigines?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:51 AM

The Indians never drove a herd of Bison over a cliff just to get a steak dinner! Thats silly.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 08:13 AM

It probably is silly, Kendall, as I implied in my caveat at end of my post; but I think it probable that they were not conscious conservationists either. They lived on, & off, the land, without probably thinking too much about the morality of the matter but just to keep going. The 'herd over a cliff' hyperbole is probably mythical, but I expect they killed more bison than they actually required for immediate dietary need. Many tribes were, culturally, hunting people, after all.

~M~

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:11 AM

Cannibals!!!
=(:-( 0)

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:50 AM

Reading more of that Wiki article turns up the fact that they used every part of those buffalo, to make their clothing, footware, tools, utensils, bowstrings, ropes and even their tepees, drying the excess meat into pemmican for later consumption while on the move.

Given the energy required for hunting, it's very likely they didn't hunt again until the last of that meat was nearly consumed.

In contrast, the buffalo hunters who supplied the army, railroad and telegraph contingents, shot millions of buffalo and took the tongues and hearts, leaving the carcases to rot and scandalising the Indians, who couldn't understand that degree of waste.

In the end it proved a useful genocidal tool for the white men, virtually starving the nomadic Indians intosubmission.

DonT.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 10:05 AM

Remember... when the native Americans were first finding the bison, there were HUGE numbers. They couldn't imagine that killing a few more than they needed would make much difference. If YOU saw a way to get dinner & supplies without running up close and putting your life in danger, what would YOU do... go read a book on environmental conservation and attend a lecture by PETA first?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 10:25 AM

Bloodthirsty killers.
=(:-( O)

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 10:57 AM

Back under your bridge........

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 10:58 AM

"native americans took the land"

Where'd they take it to?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:16 PM

Boy, talk about yer poopflingin'! The guy that started this thread must sure be desperate for attention. ;-D

- Chongo

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:26 PM

Chongo, another one of the mudcat below the belt peculiars.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: ollaimh
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 01:11 PM

the idea that native americans killed oof the mamoths and other mega fauna was popular twentyb years ago but the scianece does not support that. q, you are near the tyrell royal museum, you can get the real information from those people.


what a racists like peasant dosn't care about is the intentional killing off of natice children all across north america in the residential schools, which had death rates often exceeding fifty per cent. the bryce report from thechief medical officer for residential schools in 1908 confirmed just that. he described the deprival of nutrition and health care as iuntentional and criminal.. these conditions existed in the united states as well and continued untill the sixties. some even into the eighties.

the failue to address the genocide is what makes america and canada illegitimate states.    UNITED STATES OUT OF AMERICA!!!!

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 02:45 PM

conrad, don't forget how Native Americans infected the White Man with venereal disease.
(What?! It was the other way around?")

Native Americans would do well to take the land back that was stolen from them.
That would stop the Keystone Pipeline.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 02:50 PM

We need to do something for the poor bastards.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:13 PM

Actually, this thread may open a few eyes. Especially when it comes to the use of starvation against our Native Brothers in their wars to conquer territories in NA.

I could tell you a few things which haven't been stated but I do not think it wise after being called down in other threads for stating what I believe to be the truth as learned from people on both "sides" of past and ongoing "issues" between the Native tribes and been the Natives and the Whites.

Maybe one would be germain to this particular thread. As stated above, many buffalo were killed by "The Buffalo Hunters". Many of these had only their tongues and hearts removed and were then left to rot. This was done on purpose. Why? Why go to such trouble? It was symbolic and it was the worst kind of mental torture the invaders could come up witrh. The message was, we are going to cut out your tongue and destroy your very heart and soul and your will to resist.

As I am no expert and have no proof except to say I have learned "things" from both sides, I shall avoid posting any further.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:36 PM

Even if any of the North American Aboriginal peoples had the desire to do so (which is very doubtful), they did not have the numbers (even at their peak) to inflict the kind of damage that "the settlers" later did to wildlife and the environment.

Next thing someone is going to propose is this group also were responsible for the distinction of the Dinosaurs.

(Low grades for thinking up this thread proposal).

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:43 PM

They were far more spiritual than we will ever be.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:47 PM

Ed, if they extinguished the distinguished dinasaurs, I think we owe them a big thanks. I think it was the Australian Natives who did that... when they said throw another filly on the barbie, they weren't fuckin around.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:50 PM

It beats me how a good researcher could start a thread of this nature.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: John P
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:37 AM

I was born and raised in the United States. As such, I'm a native American. I waste resources and pollute the environment about half as much as anyone else around me, including the few "real" Native Americans I know. What is this conversation about, anyway? Isn't it pointlessly offensive to make broad, sweeping, generalized assumptions about people based on their non-voluntary membership in some group?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:00 PM

The Alaskans still hunt moose. They thank the Spirit of the animal for feeding them. They use every single part of it. They are totally aware of their environment and know that now even the moose are struggling to find the right food, due to global warming. They have no intention of killing them off.

The Native Americans were exactly the same.

They would hardly kill off the very animal which provided them not just with food but with so much else. They may have huge hunting parties to go after the buffalo, but they still honoured this animal, as they did with so many other things around them.

It is said the White Man killed the buffalo, in an effort to finally kill off The Indians, for they knew how much the People relied on this particular animal.

The Native Americans have always had far more wisdom than us when it comes to living alongside Mother Earth.

We left our Tribes way, way back and have continued walking a Path of Insanity ever since, which kinda describes this thread really.

IF America were still in the hands of the Native Americans, then the Water, Air and Land would all still be pure, all still regarded as Sacred.

But feck, what the hell do I know,eh?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:00 PM

Yep. It is pointlessly offensive to do that. That's why I say the OP must be dyin' for attention.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: pdq
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:01 PM

"I have heard it said of the Australian Aborigines that their contribution to Australia is that after 10,000 years of living there, they left the land just as they found it. (No small achievement)"

Sorry to say, the statement is completely idiotic.

As soon as the Australian aborigines figured out how to start a fire, they burned entire forests, then walked into the smouldering mess and carried off dying roos and anything else the wanted to eat.

Estimates are the 70% of Australia was torched at least one in the last few hundred of years. As much as 30% was probably torched yearly.

As sombody pointed out, the damage native peoples did (and still do) was limited by their means, not noble intent.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:56 PM

""if they extinguished the distinguished dinasaurs, I think we owe them a big thanks""

I don't know, a good dinasaur steak may be a real treat (Flintstone's style).

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 01:00 PM

Someone very kindly put this on my FB page just now, so I thought I'd share it here too...

IROQUOIS THANKSGIVING ADDRESS
Ohenton Kariwahtekwen

The People

Today we have gathered and we see that the cycles of life continue. We have been given the duty to live in balance and harmony with each other and all living things. So now, we bring our minds together as one as we give greetings and thanks to each other as people.

Now our minds are one.

The Earth Mother

We are all thankful to our Mother, the Earth, for she gives us all that we need for life. She supports our feet as we walk about upon her. It gives us joy that she continues to care for us as she has from the beginning of time. To our mother, we send greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Waters

We give thanks to all the waters of the world for quenching our thirst and providing us with strength. Water is life. We know its power in many forms-waterfalls and rain, mists and streams, rivers and oceans. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to the spirit of Water.

Now our minds are one.

The Fish

We turn our minds to the all the Fish life in the water. They were instructed to cleanse and purify the water. They also give themselves to us as food. We are grateful that we can still find pure water. So, we turn now to the Fish and send our greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Plants

Now we turn toward the vast fields of Plant life. As far as the eye can see, the Plants grow, working many wonders. They sustain many life forms. With our minds gathered together, we give thanks and look forward to seeing Plant life for many generations to come.

Now our minds are one.

The Food Plants

With one mind, we turn to honor and thank all the Food Plants we harvest from the garden. Since the beginning of time, the grains, vegetables, beans and berries have helped the people survive. Many other living things draw strength from them too. We gather all the Plant Foods together as one and send them a greeting of thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Medicine Herbs

Now we turn to all the Medicine herbs of the world. From the beginning they were instructed to take away sickness. They are always waiting and ready to heal us. We are happy there are still among us those special few who remember how to use these plants for healing. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to the Medicines and to the keepers of the Medicines.

Now our minds are one.

The Animals

We gather our minds together to send greetings and thanks to all the Animal life in the world. They have many things to teach us as people. We are honored by them when they give up their lives so we may use their bodies as food for our people. We see them near our homes and in the deep forests. We are glad they are still here and we hope that it will always be so.

Now our minds are one

The Trees

We now turn our thoughts to the Trees. The Earth has many families of Trees who have their own instructions and uses. Some provide us with shelter and shade, others with fruit, beauty and other useful things. Many people of the world use a Tree as a symbol of peace and strength. With one mind, we greet and thank the Tree life.

Now our minds are one.

The Birds

We put our minds together as one and thank all the Birds who move and fly about over our heads. The Creator gave them beautiful songs. Each day they remind us to enjoy and appreciate life. The Eagle was chosen to be their leader. To all the Birds-from the smallest to the largest-we send our joyful greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Four Winds

We are all thankful to the powers we know as the Four Winds. We hear their voices in the moving air as they refresh us and purify the air we breathe. They help us to bring the change of seasons. From the four directions they come, bringing us messages and giving us strength. With one mind, we send our greetings and thanks to the Four Winds.

Now our minds are one.

The Thunderers

Now we turn to the west where our grandfathers, the Thunder Beings, live. With lightning and thundering voices, they bring with them the water that renews life. We are thankful that they keep those evil things made by Okwiseres underground. We bring our minds together as one to send greetings and thanks to our Grandfathers, the Thunderers.

Now our minds are one.

The Sun

We now send greetings and thanks to our eldest Brother, the Sun. Each day without fail he travels the sky from east to west, bringing the light of a new day. He is the source of all the fires of life. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to our Brother, the Sun.

Now our minds are one.

Grandmother Moon

We put our minds together to give thanks to our oldest Grandmother, the Moon, who lights the nighttime sky. She is the leader of woman all over the world, and she governs the movement of the ocean tides. By her changing face we measure time, and it is the Moon who watches over the arrival of children here on Earth. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to our Grandmother, the Moon.

Now our minds are one.

The Stars

We give thanks to the Stars who are spread across the sky like jewelry. We see them in the night, helping the Moon to light the darkness and bringing dew to the gardens and growing things. When we travel at night, they guide us home. With our minds gathered together as one, we send greetings and thanks to the Stars.

Now our minds are one.

The Enlightened Teachers

We gather our minds to greet and thank the enlightened Teachers who have come to help throughout the ages. When we forget how to live in harmony, they remind us of the way we were instructed to live as people. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to these caring teachers.

Now our minds are one.

The Creator

Now we turn our thoughts to the creator, or Great Spirit, and send greetings and thanks for all the gifts of Creation. Everything we need to live a good life is here on this Mother Earth. For all the love that is still around us, we gather our minds together as one and send our choicest words of greetings and thanks to the Creator.

Now our minds are one.

Closing Words

We have now arrived at the place where we end our words. Of all the things we have named, it was not our intention to leave anything out. If something was forgotten, we leave it to each individual to send such greetings and thanks in their own way.

Now our minds are one.

Attitude of Gratitude Moment: Having Elders who share their wisdom and guidance with me freely that I may see with illuminated eyes. Thank you to Mama Donna for sharing with me.

Artist Maxine Noel

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:53 PM

One popular method of hunting buffalo that American Indians were given to was to drive a herd of buffalo off a cliff. Then, they would go below, take what they needed for the moment, and leave hundreds if not thousands of dead and dying buffalo to rot at the bottom of the cliff.

Yup! That's a pretty wise way of using a resource they depended on all right.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:58 PM

My poem on "Land Rights" - http://www.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse/blog/476693050

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:29 PM

"Buffalo jumps" covered above, in detail, at 20 Nov 12 - 09:15 p.m. and following post.

Don Firth

P. S. Native American tribes are STILL killing grey whales off the coast of Washington State. Despite the fact that the grey whale is an endangered species, they claim the right to kill them as part of their native rituals, guaranteed by treaty.

I can't say I'm totally impressed by the ecological sensibilities of Native Americans.

By the way, these days, instead of going afer the whales in canoes and using harpoons, they're using speed boats and elephant guns. After peppering the whale in the head with .50 cal. bullets, they then go in with the harpoons.

Often these whales are on their way to Alaskan waters, having come from their breeding grounds in the Sea of Cortez, where they--and their calves--are used to coming up alongside tourist boats there on "whale watching" expeditions. And sometimes being petted!

I watched a film clip a few years back of a whale-kill off the Washington coast, and the whale swam up beside the Native American's speed boat, as if to say "Howdy!"

Just before they shot it!

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:38 PM

Now, I'm fully cognizant of the atrocities perpetrated against Native Americans in the past and the shabby way many of them are still being treated today. And my wife and I make regular contributions (from our meagre incomes) to Native American causes, particularly schools.

But when I saw that film clip, I wanted to gag!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:39 PM

A close examination of all the posts in this thread will reveal that...

1. There are wise and foolish people in all nations and communities.

2. With both good and bad ideas and practices.

3. And we can choose to look at whichever part of that picture pleases us (or displeases us) the most when considering any community of people....and then talk about it. Which side of it you choose to look at (and confine your remarks to) will say a lot more about you than it will about the people you're casting judgement upon.

4. And if you're wise enough to look at both sides of a group of people and give them both fair consideration....good for you. You might see them fairly clearly then, and realize they're not much different from you.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:34 PM

When I was a conservation officer with the US Fish& Wildlife Service I had to go to the Passamaquoddy Indian reservation to tell them that they can no longer kill Seals because they are protected by federal law.
They were not happy, and one of the elders reminded me that it was US that put so many species on the endangered list, not them!

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:44 PM

"Buffalo jumps" covered above, in detail, at 20 Nov 12 - 09:15 p.m. and following post....

In fact, Kendall, follow that link. Maybe my post above that you denounced a so silly and I had not resources to persist with at the time not so silly after all.

~M~

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:49 PM

Little Hawk, every now and then you shoot an arrow straight to the heart of a matter. You have more Indian in you than me, although I may have more Indian family than you. I am pleased you don't buy into the bullshit that gets tossed around in these threads.

I know of a situation in a northern settlement where some people--half dozen or so--got drunk and slaughtered about 100 caribou needlessly and wantonly. One of the elders said at the time that the caribou would never return. The caribou hadn't, and that was about twelve years after the slaughter. Before the mass killing, hunters could go a few miles and harvest a few dozen, gut them and bring them back for the community. After that, hunting the meat was difficult because the critters had first to be found, and sometimes that meant looking over forty to sixty miles away.

Sometimes I wish white people didn't know so damned much.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:52 PM

Seals protected? Send them lads up here. We got at least a few million extra.

Ever eat seal? They don't taste near as good as the salmon they eat.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:55 PM

Forgot to mention: the people who slaughtered the caribou left them to rot.

#######################

I've eaten seal before, Gnu, but I was real hungry at the time.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: pdq
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 07:13 PM

Madagascar was one of the most amazing places for wildlife in the whole world.

Most species were found no place else.

There now remains about 5% of the original vegetation and there are probably more extinct species lost in Madagascar then any other place on the planet.

Fact is, most of the loss is from illegal burning by native people.

Seems they have only one way to show their manhood and that is to torch a forest.

I some areas, authorities took to shooting the firestarters, but that was frowned upon by humanitarian groups.

Don't bother to look this up because the truth has been purged in favor of blaming greedy business men, the French and all White people. Ain't true.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:29 PM

Yes and no, PDQ.

When indigenous peoples are subjected to outside economics, TVs, propaganda, they usually quickly succumb to the trance of the newest glitter. The sale of Manhattan for beads was not because native people were stupid. It was because they had NO idea of the concept of private property. They wondered at the time why whites were foolish enough to buy land. Hell, it was land! Who would buy land?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: pdq
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:58 PM

Madagascar ain't Manhattan.

Whole different island.

Besides, the Indians who sold Manhattan did not own it, so the price really didn't matter.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 09:03 PM

Jaysus, stop being so pedantic, PDQ, they both start with the letter M.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 09:09 PM

So, who wrote the story of the Indians running herds of Bison over a cliff to get a steak dinner? You can bet your ass it wasn't an Indian.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:10 PM

The supposed locations seem pretty well authenticated in that wiki entry, Kendall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_jump

Believe it or not: there it is authenticated in detail in wiki.

~M~

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:13 PM

'You can bet your ass it wasn't an Indian.'...

So what, K? It wasn't a German who wrote The Scourge Of The Swastika either, was it? So don't you believe Auschwitz & Belsen really happened?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:40 PM

It was never done for a steak. A buffalo provides enough protein for a family of four or five for a few months. Mostly dry meat.

In Alberta is Head Smashed in Buffalo Jump.

Hunters work hard to find food. In the old days, before rifles, there had to be ways that didn't involve personal risk in the pursuit of food. People found those ways. Meat didn't magically appear in a Safeway, wrapped and ready to cook. I don't know how many of you ever faced a charging 800 pound cow or 1000 pound bull, but fucking trust me, it's easy to shit yerself when you think it may not swerve.

No offence meant to anyone, but many of the remarks on this thread come from some romanticized notion of Indian people. They are no different than any other people. No more conservative, no more conservationist, no more altruistic. We are humans, and despite that our hunter/gatherer methodologies have changed in history, they have also remained the same, much as have we.

I prefer dry meat from moose, made by a certain family in north Alberta. However, I ate 'rat a few times when I was hungry. In my younger years I trapped it to sell the skins, but when my stomach spoke, and I had to listen, I ate the carcass I used to sell to mink farmers. It wasn't great, but it was better than an empty belly. Remember that phrase, 'an empty belly', because it drives more necessities than all the talk on this thread. Again, no offence.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 12:36 PM

One point should be made, if only to ensure it is stated(/ing the obvious). The fact that jumps have so many feet of bones does not equate to running huge numbers of bufflo over a jump at once every time it was done. It was done for, perhaps, thousands of years.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 12:59 PM

Has this thread been started to paint the Native Americans in a bad light?

I think we all understand there are good and bad in all Peoples, but left to their own peaceful environment, the Tribes just got on with living peacefully, finding enough food etc. to survive.

The Amazonian Tribes still live this way today.

I'm sure, if they felt threatened by another Tribe, then they would fight to protect themselves, their families etc....every species under the sun would do that...

But in general the American Indians had a deep,DEEP connection to Mother Earth with a Respect for Her and for all Species. They still promote this Outlook on Life to this day..and yet, our 'Tribes' beat the hell out of them to beat the hell of Christianity into them...

We had NO right to do this...and there is NO excuse for any of the Bastards & Bitches who did this.

It still makes me deeply sad to see Native Americans worshipping Christianity to this day. It's all so very wrong.

Our Lord's Prayer is built on fear and the assumption that we are all sinners...Yet, if you read The Lakota Prayer it is all about Love.

They suffered horribly because of our ancestors and it's way past time we all started to admit to that, to shout out to this day when racist comments about them are made, or they are ridiculed and seen as somehow 'less than human', as happens to so very many Indigenous People.

They haven't deservered one bit of The Shit that's rained down on them for centuries.

It's interesting that the Jewish Holocaust is known about the whole world over...museums are built about it, schools teach it, children/young people visit the places so many died...

The Native American Holocaust though has been hidden until recently...and now, with the internet, massive amounts of information can be found in seconds.

Nearly ALL Indigenous Peoples are under attack at present from The Corporate Bastards and The Insane Ones who are after the resources held in their land, for they want to mine it, dam it, build on it, frack it until this planet has NO resources left at all....

There is Genocide going on in the Amazon where the Indigenous Tribes are being put through hell, shot, poisoned, scared shitless, their rivers dammed, their forests destroyed, one little girl of just 8 years old was burnt alive by farmers/ranchers/loggers etc. as an example to the rest of the tribe...for they want them to leave their land...

It is hard to believe this can still be happening, but it is, BIGTIME.

The Mapuche...recently four of them starving themselves after being arrested. They too are under great threat...

Sorry, but I'm sick of the 'Civilized Ones' for they allow feckingly insane, ruthless, sociopathic bastards to rule them and to obliterate not only the few Indigenous Peoples we have left, but also Mother Earth herself.

The White Man, as a Race, needs the biggest kick up the backside EVER...

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 01:44 PM

It has not been unrecognised over the years, Lizzie, what ill was done the native peoples. Think of books like the distinguished Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee by Dee Brown & Sacagewa's Nickname by Larry Mc Murtry, now regarded as standard works of American history. Which is not to say that no-one realised it even earlier; think of the history of Geronimo, for instance. There has long been the satirical saying that "The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave was founded on a firm base of genocide and racism". I was once denounced by Ebbie for talking "piffle" when I quoted it on a previous occasion: but, as with much 'piffle', there is a sort of worrying germ of truth, or perhaps more, in it.

~M~

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: pdq
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 02:10 PM

"...standard works of American history. Which is not to say that no-one realised it even earlier; think of the history of Geronimo, for instance."

Pleeeze...Geronimo was born was south of the United States in Mexico and was never an American.

Geronimo's wife and three children were killed by thugs sent from Mexico City in a program intended to pacify the unhappy natives.

He fought like a madman against a band of Mexican soldiers, killing (I believe) 8 of them without suffering even a scratch.

That made him one of the biggest targets in the country, so fled to the Chiracahua Mts. in what is now southeastern Arizona where he was protected by the Apache, distant relatives of Geronimo.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 02:12 PM

Precisely my point, perhaps a bit too laconically expressed, pdq.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 02:26 PM

It was not taught in schools until comparitively recently, Michael.

I have Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee, but I also have 'Where Whitemen Fear To Tread' by Russell Means, and 'Ojibwa Warrior' by Dennis Banks (only just got that, not read it yet) but read Russell's book and see how his People were treated before AIM was born...

Hollywood did its' damndest to tell a very different story...

I've put Marlon Brando's words from a TV interview in the 'Thanksgiving Debate' thread, along with the video of it. Marlon had it absolutely correct and he wasn't frightened to speak the truth. He knocked around with Dennis and Russell and Leonard, amongst others, so he was very aware of the true story...

Your quote is absolutely correct, but sadly, very many people still, to this day, do NOT want to hear it because it unleashes all sorts of emotions. It shouldn't, because it was those who went before us who did this, but what is SO appalling is that instead of everyone rising up to stand WITH the Native Americans now, in the present, so many STILL turn away...and *that* is unforgivable, because they need all of us to say "ENOUGH!"

GAP insulted them horrendously recently with their ohsochic 'Manifest Destiny' T shirt! I mean, WTF were they thinking??!!!

I tell what they were thinking, they were thinking NOTHING, because they had NO IDEA what Manifest Destiny is actually all about to the Native Americans. The stupid designer then went on to his Twitter page to write it was only a bit of fun and meant 'survival of the fittest' as far as he was concerned....

I should imagine he now has nightmares about it in his sleep..

Geez, if Black Americans were still being treated this way..???
Can you imagine a T shirt with 'Slavery is RIGHT!' written on it? Can you imagine the fallout from that???? But GAP barely caused a fecking ripple, other than amongst those who knew in the first place..and most of the public didn't give a feck..

That's appalling and it's something the Native Americans have to deal with EVERY day in some way.

They are desperately trying to stop the Alcohol Bastards of White Clay from wiping out their People, but when they protest THEY are the ones who get arrested! WHY isn't the american government closing down these four stores, for they KNOW the damage they're causing to the Lakota! It's been going on for decades...it's been ALLOWED to go on for decades!

I tell you what, if FOUR alcohol stores opened up in a posh little White Village somewhere else in America, where the stinkingly filthy rich lived, and THEIR children (young people) suddenly started on the road to alcoholism, fed by these bloody places 24/7 there would be OUTRAGE! When THEIR families started falling over sideways and were no longer able to speak or think coherently, or beat their wives or children because of the effect of the poison they were consuming, those stores would be shut IN AN INSTANT, because not only MONEY talks, but so does The White Man, to this day.

IF America TRULY cared about their Indigenous People they would be up in arms over what is happening to The Lakota. And the Lakota are doing ALL they can to stop this themselves, for they know that they are now killing themselves, but hell, the blame, whether we like it or not, still lies very much with us Whites, because we are feckingly OK about NOT looking, NOT getting involved, NOT passing their story on, for we all have far more important 'stuff' to do....Right? Right!

And if anyone DARES to shout and scream out about this story, then all hell breaks loose..

Ah well....

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: meself
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 02:44 PM

Geronimo was and is a very controversial figure among the Apache. These matters are not as black-and-white as many of you like to think.

Some of us, you know, have spent much of our lives living and working with Aboriginal people. The kind of BS that gets spouted on these kinds of threads gets extremely tedious.

Don't let me slow you down, though. Carry on.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 03:08 PM

MtheGM, your statement that they ran herds of Bison over a cliff FOR A STEAK DINNER was silly.
And my post about history had nothing to do with Auschwitz or the Nazis. Stick to the subject.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 04:33 PM

Inuit eat seals, and there is no reason why they should not - as the northern populations are very high and growing.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 05:53 PM

From Alaska.....

Polar Palooza - Orville Huntington

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:01 PM

Has this thread been started to paint the Native Americans in a bad light?

Liz, get a fucking life will ya? ENOUGH ALREADY!!!

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:07 PM

Ed... there is only one reason. Seal sucks! I once was fed seal for breakfast, lunch and supper at Annie's Hotel in Makkovik, Labrador for three days on a construction job and then saw her nephew Curtis land another fookin seal on the dock. I asked if she had anything else. Caribou stew! YES, PLAESE, Ma'am! You would think that paying guests would get some caribou meat, no? No. Just caribou fat. Ya know that tallow ya can't scrape off the roof of your mouth with your tongue so you gotta use a fingernail?

I made arrangements for my crew to eat with the construction contracter POST HASTE! Now, seal flipper pie, okay. But that oughta tell ya sommat... if the flipper is the best part, well, kill em all and there'll be more cod and salmon.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:59 PM

Kill em all and there'll certainly be more weak and sickly cod and salmon Gnu.

Don T.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 07:10 PM

They also eat shedding Lobsters.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 07:31 PM

Better than none, Don. And we are damn near there. Did ya know there were cullings of seals with 223 cal machine pistols from helicopters when the salmon were massed off our coast? Seals take a bite out of a salmon's gut and let it sink... then another... then another... so that they can feed for days after the salmon enter the fresh waters. The salmon mass up on a full moon and wait for high tide in huge schools. The explosion of the seal population due to the boycotts brought about by Brigitte Bardot and Paul McCartney (ignorant twits) cost a lot of Atlantic Canucks a substantial part of their living and helped the decline of the cod and salmon stocks.

Yes, it was the lumber industry that was the main culprit regarding the salmon and it's being addressed as well as it can be but these "environmentalist" tree and seal huggers did far more harm than good. Just like when they "saved" the old growth forests here... which most of blew down in a windstorm... six MILLION cubic metres of wood went down in ONE DAY. Trees die too when they get old. It's the cycle of life. "Saving" them cut them all down and THAT is a true tragedy.

I am all for the environment but I am totally against some millionaire Brit twit protesting when he knows absoulutely NOTHING about the environment here. Unfortunately, ignorant yuppies in foreign lands read their crap in the newspapers and not only boycott but also donate to these money making organizations. Their loss, really, and, worse, our loss as people of the earth and the loss of those that feed and cloth themselves with cod, salmon and seals.

I would rather eat a sickly salmon than go hungry on accounta seals suck.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 07:39 PM

They also eat lobsters? That's it! AIR STRIKE! KILL EM ALL!

Hmmm... does Sir Paul eat lobsters? >;-)

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: meself
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 07:40 PM

Seal tastes great - if you are cold and hungry enough.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 11:36 PM

MtheGM, your statement that they ran herds of Bison over a cliff FOR A STEAK DINNER was silly.
And my post about history had nothing to do with Auschwitz or the Nazis. Stick to the subject.
.,,.
Kendall ~~ You know perfectly well the difference between making an analogy [you use plenty yourself] and straying from the subject. & you know that it wasn't my 'statement', but the quotation of the words of a fictitious character in a novel, my doubts as to the absolute precision of which were clearly signalled in post citing it ~~ ie, that the 'steak dinner' might not have been the primary object, but the cliff-driving does appear to have occurred. Don't make your points by pretending to be a silly old casuist; it's beneath you.

~M~

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 07:54 AM

You implied that the Indians slaughterd herds of Bison for a small supply of food. That is silly. Exaggeration in humor is allowed, but in a serious discussion it is not.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 08:53 AM

I implied nothing, Kendall. I simply quoted a work of literature. Learn to read or shut up.

Enuf awready.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:34 AM

Hey, know it all, I don't care who said it originally, you repeated it and it is still silly.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:43 AM

Look, let's get some perspective here. The Indians did run Bison off a cliff. 100 of them according to Lewis & Clark, but, consider the number of Bison at that time, MILLIONS of them from sea to sea. The number thaT THEY KILLED IN THIS MANNER WAS MINUTE. And it was most certainly not for a "Steak dinner."

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:43 AM

I repeated it with a disclaimer ~~ I added to the post

--I do not put these forward as clinching arguments ~~ I admit I haven't entirely researched the matter, just read 'Bury My Heart' &c, & my views are thus of necessity second-hand~~ but simply as points to consider. ---

So keep your spleen alive, if it makes you happier; but that seems a good enuf caveat to me that I didn't take the assertion seriously either. Just stop going on at me about it, because I am getting very bored, & you are not usually such a boring old fart, Kendall. Don't know what has got into you.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:48 AM

If you have had enough, why don't YOU shut up?
Check your PM.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:49 AM

I'm on Prednisone.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:56 AM

Gentlemen, don't shoot the messenger.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:14 PM

Checked my PM, K. Deleted your stupid aggressive message.

Now shut the hell up properly, you stupid little fool. I'm supposed to tremble in my boots at your threats am I? ~~


He threatened, everybody, that I shall 'live to regret locking horns with him'. Oh wow! Tremble tremble. The house is shaking. The cat is hiding terrified under the chair and my wife is in tears.

Did you ever in all your born days hear of anything so pathetic? Anyone?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 01:50 PM

OK big mouth, I sent you a pm to avoid a public row. You, on the other hand had to insult me on the forum.

Now, as I said, I don't care who said it, you repeated it and it was silly. You obviously lack the class to admit that I'm right. It takes a man to admit being wrong and you aint a man in my opinion.
I did not call YOU silly, nor did I suggest you learn to read or shut up.
So, go ahead and run your pedantic mouth some more. I'll take you like Grant took Richmond.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 02:45 PM

That's a joke, son. Grant never took Richmond.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 02:51 PM

WHOA! I think there are more than enough posts in this thread to "explain" what MAY have happened with respect to the jumps and WHY.

First, could we all agree that anyone running animals over a jump was feeding and clothing themselves?

Second, could we all agree that running animals over a jump WAS the way to go?

Third, could we all agree that NO Native or white or purple would ever run a hundred animals over a jump if he needed one animal?

Fourth... could we all agree that anyone who thinks such a practice is an exact science is incorrect?

Fact is, even IF an overkill happened now and then, Red, White, Purple would not have been happy about it. They did not do it on purpose. But, it's better than going hungry, innit?

MtheGM... I don't know if I quite understand your problem with Kendall at the moment, but you have committed a cardinal sin... PMs are PMs. Your posting of what you say Kendall wrote to you in a Personal and Private Message is unacceptable. You, sir, should apologize to ALL readers, not just Kendall. Think about that. Me. I don't care... you should.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 02:55 PM

Could someone please explain to me why threads started about Native Americans end up being filled with nastiness, anger and bitterness?

Just askin'.......

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:02 PM

What we have here is a failure to communicate. The Warden in the film Cool Hand Luke).

Gnu, I agree with everything you said.
("Never argue with someone whose opinion you don't respect"

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:04 PM

Lizzie... because there are so many people who THINK they know what happened and what goes on today that ain't got two clues about any of it but rely on the new media and their own perception of what they read. The truth about the past and the truth about the present are often a toss up for emotions instead of facts. That's why I had to leave past threads and that is why I may soon be out of this one.

BTW, if I am wrong about anything I post, educate me, anyone. I have never shied from the truth... but it HAS to be the truth.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: pdq
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:09 PM

MtheGM is the most educated and erudite person who posts to Mudcat these days.

Many of us appreciate his contributions.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:24 PM

Two guys had a misunderstanding. They're both good men. Let THEM work it out. That's my opinion FWIW.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:59 PM

Right on, 9. When two people are both right but it boils down to their perceptions of the other's words and their OWN words... ONE word subsequently misplaced or taken the wrong way can lead to havoc. Imagine!... two of the most respected Mudcatters are having a spat over a few words when they are both "right" in their own way.

Now, I can easily understand my spats over my time here but I plead the ignorance of youth. I could have pled "the grape" on some but I usually only do that the next day after I sober up and read back. Of course, I have usually simply apologized.

In any case, like I said above, I am glad this thread was started for whatever reason because many of the posts have eductaed many of us, myself included.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 05:36 PM

Thank you, pdq.

gnu ~~ a pm is a piece of correspondence addressed to me. As the recipient, it is up to me to decide whether to make the contents public ~~ especially when the sender had put a note here on the open forum telling me to check my pm's., so it was no sort of secret to anyone that he had sent me one. He said, here, that he sent it to avoid a public row. The row was pretty public by then, wasn't it?

~M~

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 05:47 PM

Regardless of your own interpretaion, the PMs are for the purpose of telling someone something that they don't want on the forum. When you get to be a moderator you can make rules. Until then... Go defecate in your chapeau.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 05:58 PM

pdq, I don't know how you know aqnything about the education of anyone here, but you are at least partly right. I consider MtheGM to be very intelligent. If I didn't, I would waste any time on him.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:13 PM

Could someone please explain to me why threads started about Native Americans end up being filled with nastiness, anger and bitterness?

Look in the mirror, Liz.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:24 PM

If, there are Buffalo have wings (as claimed in the local tavern menu), couldn't they just fly over the rocks below?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:26 PM

""Look, let's get some perspective here. The Indians did run Bison off a cliff. 100 of them according to Lewis & Clark, but, consider the number of Bison at that time, MILLIONS of them from sea to sea. The number thaT THEY KILLED IN THIS MANNER WAS MINUTE. And it was most certainly not for a "Steak dinner."""

Correct Cap'n! There are accounts by early settlers of single herds which took more than four DAYS to pass a fixed point, and there were hundreds of those.

The bison had no serious predators. Nothing that the population of Native Americans could have done would even keep up with the birth rate of those herds.

I posted the following earlier:

""Reading more of that Wiki article turns up the fact that they Reading more of that Wiki article turns up the fact that theyused every part of those buffalo, to make their clothing, footware, tools, utensils, bowstrings, ropes and even their tepees, drying the excess meat into pemmican for later consumption while on the move.""

It wasn't until the white men arrived in thousands and the buffalo hunters supplied them with food on an industrial basis, that buffalo were slaughtered in huge numbers, their hearts and tongues taken, and the rest left to rot, that the great herds were reduced almost to extinction.

Hard truth white folks, but truth nevertheless.

Don T.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:30 PM

""Could someone please explain to me why threads started about Native Americans end up being filled with nastiness, anger and bitterness?""

I think it's called displaced feelings of guilt Lizzie, and they really don't like it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:39 PM

""How Globalization Nearly Exterminated the Buffalo""



Another perspective

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 07:09 PM

I'll read that soon, ED.

For the moment... MGM... "gnu ~~ a pm is a piece of correspondence addressed to me. As the recipient, it is up to me to decide whether to make the contents public ~~ especially when the sender had put a note here on the open forum telling me to check my pm's., so it was no sort of secret to anyone that he had sent me one. He said, here, that he sent it to avoid a public row. The row was pretty public by then, wasn't it?"

Not fuckin likely! Get some manners! THAT is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE in any way shape or form. Besides the fact that you CANNOT prove it AND that, at that point, YOUR post becomes libel. I don't give two shits from Tuesday about ANYthing that was written by ANYone in a PM. I do care about the sanctity of PMs and the VERY serious breach of that trust which you committed. I again call for you to understand the serious transgression and apologize for same, sir, herein, in public as that is where YOU chose to take it. It is unethical, unwarranted, uncalled for, unwise and unacceptable... FULL STOP.

BTW... if this thread gets derailed because of this "spat", I will start another to address this abuse of confidentiality. I admire both of you but I can't abide any dirty shit no matter who it is. That ain't the way Mum raised me.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 07:55 PM

Interesting article, Ed, as usual. Thanks.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:50 PM

Seriously, tho ~~ about the PM biz. Not by any means the first time that I have reported on the contents of a PM on the forum, in order to show how that bit of the argument was going. Nobody has ever objected before. If I receive a letter in the mail, or an email, I regard them as my property, at my discretion to make the contents public or not. My choosing to do so is not the same as anyone else trying to hack them. It had never even occurred to me that PMs were supposed to be governed by the same rules as the Secrets of the Confessional, as gnu appears to believe. Does anyone else think so? I should be glad to know, for future reference. I really am sorry to have caused gnu such apparent distress. Is it universal, or widely shared? I should genuinely like to know.

~M~

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 06:26 AM

The name says it, man, PERSONAL MESSAGE.

Hey, I really am sorry this failure to communicate got out of hand. I'm on prednisone and having a struggle keeping the Kraken from getting loose.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 06:31 AM

I apologize for my over the top reaction. But I truly believe that a PM is "private".

I also believe... know... I have violated, in grave fashion, the OP with extreme thread drift and I apologize to all. Obviously, I was not thinking clearly and posted in a rash and unacceptable manner. I shall not post such anymore. MGM, I shall start a thread for that discussion as your questions deserve discussion and answers.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 06:43 AM

Don't sweat it, Gnu, it's all part of your inate charm. :-)

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 06:50 AM

Inape?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 08:17 AM

Forget it, Kendall: these things happen. Start again, no hard feelings, eh?

Best
~Michael~

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 11:23 AM

"When you get to be a moderator you can make rules."

That's good to know.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 12:52 PM

Ok, Michael, let's call it a draw.If we ever meet, I'll buy you a Guinness.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 02:13 PM

My poem "Americans" - http://www.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse/blog/455408778

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 03:14 PM

HUH?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 04:08 PM

LOL....What's the matter Kendall? Can't figure out what Walky writes or what it ight be about or how it can be so impossibly bad? Or is it all three? For me it is definitely all three.........Additionally you can also ask what it has to do with anything but that's generally a given..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 04:19 PM

Kendall... Spaw speaks the truth. I don't click on anything he posts. I have better things to not do.

Cranky old man, me? Not necessarily.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 05:24 PM

Disconnected phrases and clumsy rhymes doth not a poem make.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 05:59 PM

Interesting info on this Nebraska (once an inportant Bison area)historic site.


President Jackson and the Indian Removal Act:

The settlers, the natives and the treaties

Beef Moves to Nebraska to replace Bison:

The End of the Bison


Video:
Cattle replaces Bison-Nebraska

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 06:17 PM

From:GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 04:19 PM

gnu... tossd my cookie.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 09:51 PM

I spoke with some of my native buddies over the past days and invited them to read this thread and maybe join in. With exception of some links, they were mostly saddened by the posts. Each of three said they would never post here or anywhere else because their and their fourfathers' experiences in trying to "talk" with white men were useless and could only lead to more trouble for them, personally or, perhaps, otherwise (paraphrasing).

I understand. And it saddens me. One guy in particular. He is a cutup... funny as hell! When he tears a strip off whites AND reds, he is a joy to listen to. His wisdom, often expressed in humour, is cutting to the core. Thread drift about to happen... I recall the first time I met him. I was working for his band as an engineer. He was a tour guide at "the land" and he explained that his bone vest (costume donned for the tourists) was made with gaps because proper warrior armour would be too hot... and not worth a shit against a rifle so his forefathers should have worn them like that so they would have been comfortable when they were shot by the Redcoats. Not funny at all, but it was when he told me on accounta he made it sound funny. Makes ya think, don't it?

Gee... this thread just saddens me. Even when I laugh.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:23 AM

Our dealings with the original Americans is indeed a sad chapter in our history.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: ollaimh
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 03:40 PM

ms cornish, threads about native americans turn into nasty and vivious battles because they are the primary and contunuing victums of anglo imperialist genocide. to accept their history with an open mind meands to question the whole structure of genocidal military capitalism which has despoiled more of the world than any other force in history, and of course immensly more than any aborginal people.

attacking aboriginal people is an attempt to deflect responsibiliy from the genocide they suffered, and still suffer.   the present generation of natives is still shattered by the residentail schools, through the trauma of the survivors and the trauma of the anonymous deahs of their missing children.(the rcmp admit to about three and a half thousand disappeared children, who went into the schools but disappeared--the real number is likely more than ten times that).

its the fundamental racism of anglo military capitalist culture. africans suffered, celts suffered others too numerous to count suffered, but no one suffered to the extent that natives of the americas and australis suffered. the racists have to keep up the attacks, or actually self examine, and they are not going to self examine.

ps greg f, f please f off

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:10 PM

Amazing....

Post stated:

"Sinnerss all just have thanksgiving that we survived!"

Simply put- native americans were sinners like all of us

as in ordinary imperfect human beings

they did everything those who came after them did just at a different level of magnitude and technology

they beat up on other tribes constantly displacing them and taking their land- political activity just like today no different

The point is that some would like to hold the Native Americans unaccountable or somehow more perfect.

That is simply wrong- Those who came after them also had wonderful philosophical thoughts. All peoples have made contributions bad and good.

So lets just give thanks that we all somehow survived our human imperfections.
To try again....to do better

Conrad

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:30 PM

Ah, a Scottish ranting nutter heard from!

Sorry, Doc, but

1. Please show me where I "attack[ed] aboriginal people [in] an attempt to deflect responsibiliy from the genocide they suffered, and still suffer".

2. Referencing the beginning of Liz's River of Bullshit, viz:

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:08 PM (Excerpts)

Lizzie: the way the Native Americans have been treated and are STILL being treated, to this day, is shocking and deeply appalling.

Greg: No argument. [Emphasis mine}

From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish - PM
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:48 PM

Lizzie: get off YOUR fucking High Horse, Greg

So go on fawning at the feet of Saint Liz all you want.

P.S. Almost forgot, Doc: fuck off.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:59 PM

Oh dear. I have second hand knowledge of something just said but it's kinda "personal" in that I have buddies on both sides of this issue. How do I put this without offending? Hmmm... okay... before the Whites arrived, not all the tribes here were getting along with each other. So, a bit of Conrad's post are true, from what I was told by Maliseet friends from the Tobique reserve that worked for me on construction projects. The Mi'kmaq (pronounced Migmaw... Mic Mac to many whites and the media) and Maliseet in my province did not always see eye to eye.

I realize that posting that may be unwise but since I said this thread is a good thing in opening eyes and minds, I kinda feel I should say it.

The world ain't perfect and it's people that make that so. White, red, black, purple polka dotted... people are people. I am just glad to have gotten to know so many different people. Makes me a better person and there's always room for improvement, eh?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 07:18 PM

One of my white neighbors started ragging on those useless drunken Passamaquoddy Indians.."All they do is drink and cause trouble" etc.

I said to her, "What would you do if the government took your land, made you live on a tiny patch of, and destroyed your culture"?\\She never spoke to me again.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 10:07 PM

Gnu, there is only one side to this issue, but the choices are right or wrong. IMO, the way you feel is right.