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UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!

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GUEST,Musket 19 Dec 13 - 04:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Dec 13 - 03:12 AM
GUEST,Musket 19 Dec 13 - 01:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Dec 13 - 06:11 PM
GUEST,Musket 18 Dec 13 - 02:22 PM
Richard Bridge 18 Dec 13 - 12:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Dec 13 - 11:04 AM
Richard Bridge 18 Dec 13 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,Musket 18 Dec 13 - 07:02 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 18 Dec 13 - 06:36 AM
GUEST,Musket 18 Dec 13 - 04:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Dec 13 - 05:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Dec 13 - 02:28 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Dec 13 - 12:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Dec 13 - 06:49 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 17 Dec 13 - 06:01 AM
GUEST,Musket 17 Dec 13 - 05:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Dec 13 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,Musket 17 Dec 13 - 01:29 AM
GUEST,Ed 16 Dec 13 - 10:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Dec 13 - 09:25 PM
GUEST 16 Dec 13 - 08:07 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Dec 13 - 07:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Dec 13 - 07:38 PM
YorkshireYankee 16 Dec 13 - 07:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Dec 13 - 07:24 PM
Richard Bridge 16 Dec 13 - 07:09 PM
Greg F. 16 Dec 13 - 06:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Dec 13 - 05:57 PM
YorkshireYankee 16 Dec 13 - 05:49 PM
YorkshireYankee 16 Dec 13 - 05:29 PM
YorkshireYankee 16 Dec 13 - 04:44 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Dec 13 - 04:33 PM
Greg F. 16 Dec 13 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 16 Dec 13 - 03:22 PM
Richard Bridge 16 Dec 13 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Musket 16 Dec 13 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,Ed 16 Dec 13 - 02:27 PM
YorkshireYankee 16 Dec 13 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,LynnH 16 Dec 13 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 16 Dec 13 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,Eliza 16 Dec 13 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,Musket 16 Dec 13 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 16 Dec 13 - 09:18 AM
Mr Red 16 Dec 13 - 07:48 AM
GUEST,Musket 16 Dec 13 - 05:59 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 16 Dec 13 - 05:58 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 16 Dec 13 - 05:54 AM
Richard Bridge 16 Dec 13 - 05:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Dec 13 - 03:46 AM
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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 04:11 AM

Amen brother....


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 03:12 AM

I well remember. many years ago, politely refusing to take a leaflet from a ? party worker - I really can't remember which particular brand of dogma this one was preaching. He went red in the face and started to scream that I was a Fascist/Communist/Liberal/Hippy/Warmonger (delete as appropriate). On that day I realised how dangerous swallowing the whole party line was. Some of them are almost religious in their fervour ;-)

D.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 01:42 AM

Reality versus ideology. I reckon you and I have seen this in other threads Dave.

Reality can embrace many views whereas ideology is about as objective as a fan at Wembley.

Pointing and laughing at armchair socialists may not be clever but certainly helps you through the day. How's the wall coming on Fred? Oh. You left the bricks unattended overnight? That wasn't a good idea.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 06:11 PM

Why should I do that, Richard? The point was raised was specifically whether they used people under the Workfare scheme.

AFAIK Morrisons take on people under the UK workfare scheme

Was the exact phrase used. Remember? I did ask the specific question whether that was true and the answer was no. Anyone stating that they do is misinformed.

From my point of view Morrisons are a very fair company to work for. They offer reasonable pay and good working conditions. I am in the final few years of my working life. I am not going to make any difference to Morrisons' policies or anyone's opinions. I am still going to take my 10% staff discount. I am happy to let it rest at that.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 02:22 PM

Fuck me. Th*tcher was the fault of the vast majority of the miners now.

She didn't have any miners advising her. Plenty of solicitors though. Hand picked from the ranks of one nation Tories eh?

Kettle calling isn't your strong point my friend. Only one of us has never been a Tory. Would the good people wish to guess which one of us it is?

Tell you what. I'll let you build the wall and Fred organise the firing squad collective. I'll have died of old age before you get planning permission or Fred negotiates the firing squad rights to collective bargaining aspect of their permanent contact.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 12:01 PM

Why don't you ask the specific questions Dave?

Are there any people at Morrisons who are in receipt of any benefits but receive no pay from Morrisons?

What do they do?

Putting the question in the form "involved with workfare" empowers the sort of slippery language that it seems you have been given.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 11:04 AM

No real point in me trying to convince anyone as it will make no difference. I will just repeat that Morrisons are not involved in the workfare scheme and to report that they are is dishonest. I shall leave it at that and let people make up their own minds.

I am not commenting on apprenticeship schemes which are an entirely different matter and have operated in every form, from the building site tea boy to the indentured lawyer, since the year dot!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 10:33 AM

Dave - the links are quite specific. Claimants are directed to go on Morrisons "training schemes". They get no pay for what they are doing there. Most of it is NOT training and anyway apprentices should get decent wages. All the claimants get are their benefits. And if they don't go those are cut off. It's workfare.


Mither - you and people like you enabled Thatcher and her police and army thugs, and other neocons to smash unions, and hence repress the working class (and unwaged) all over the country. Thank you for reminding me what you deserve.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 07:02 AM

No. Like the vast majority of miners, we resented our industrial cause being used as an excuse for forcing political change. Once the management declared the pits open again, over 80% of us went back within a week, disgusted at the antics of the clowns running the union and the criminals in their midst.

The fascist thugs were the lads who saw me still going to college, (unpaid) and sending me a note saying they know what time my wife walked our baby up to her mothers and to the nursery. I worked down Manton, which was in the Yorkshire region and voted not to strike! yet the delegate cast our vote at their conference that night and apparently Yorkshire was unanimous. Two brave men from our pit fought to get NUM funds sequestrated for that.

Don't lecture me about unions. Other than collective bargaining, I have had no use for them in business and as a member, I saw nothing but politics and corruption.

You couldn't build a wall that you could hold honesty against, you delusional prat.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 06:36 AM

Musket. What a nice pleasant piece of work you are. Kicked the shit out of people who were trying to protect your living standards. What are you, some kind of fascist thug or what?

Believe me, if I was ever given the pleasure, you wouldn't be allowed to escape, not even if your name was Harry Houdini.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:24 AM

Tell you what Bridge, I would gladly be "first up against the wall" rather than have to read the tosh in the origins of the links you just posted.

Especially The Socialist Workers Party. I recall the police standing by bemused at Orgreave when we turned on them and kicked the shit out of them. I was arrested and put in the back of a black Moria, but the dozy buggers left the door open whilst chasing a bloke who had wriggled free. An hour later, I was in a pub in Rotherham watching it all on the news.

See? Even the trots can make a bad day fun when they try. Just remember my escapologist tricks when you put me up against your wall mate.



Ah.. Nice to go from hero to zero.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:50 PM

I can report that none of the above links say that Morrisons run a Workfare scheme but please feel free to check them out yourselves. They do pose the question 'Is Workfare coming to Morrisons?' the answer to which I believe I posted earlier in the official company response. If anyone has any actual evidence that Morrisons do use a Workfare scheme I will ask them why they are saying they do not. I do know that more than 40% of the workforce at Morrisons fill shelves. It is an integral part of a Supermarkets business. I do work for them but I am not a company spokesman in any shape or form. I do get narked when reports are blatantly misleading. I wonder if the reports about Amazon also contain the same type of sensationalist reporting?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 02:28 PM

The fact that it's convenient is indeed a very good reason for choosing to use Amazon so far as practicality is concerned. But it is completely irrelevant when it comes to the moral question whether it is right or wrong to do so.

Of course the real question is whether we see the moral question as having any relevance in the first place. Many would say it isn't, and that it is subversive of the whole economic system in which we live.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 12:15 PM

Jobcentre Plus tell claimants they have to go on a Morrisons placement. If the claimants don't go, they get sanctioned. What they actually do when there is stack shelves.

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/cadbury-and-morrisons-to-help-launch-mass-workfare/

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/17853

http://usdawactivist.wordpress.com/tag/workfare/

and "40% of workers at Morrisons are on shelf-filling apprenticeships that we the taxpayer are paying for" from here http://www.demos.co.uk/blog/workexperiencehasimportantbenefits


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:49 AM

Morrisons also seem pretty ethical in the way they handle suppliers and have their own abattoirs, manufacturing plants and even farms. But I would say that seeing as I get profit share :-) Let's not get too far from the main point of the thread though.

Cheers

D.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:01 AM

Q. "Not surprised that an "undercover reporter" found the work difficult- he would not be used to any kind of physical labor."

He wasn't an undercover reporter in the normal usage of the term. He was in fact a very fit mountain runner whom Panorama had chosen especially for the job. If he found it hard going, then God help the rest of us.

Dave. Thanks for the reassurance about Morrisons. I have just switched to them, having been sickened off the behaviour of one of their major competitors. A number of people have pointed out that trying to be an ethical shopper in the present economic climate is like walking through a minefield. That is eminently true. But at least if you make the effort, you might fractionally improve things. You certainly won't if you don't.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:10 AM

Eehh. I love threads where I can come over all reactionary and pretending to be 'alright Jack.' Far more entertainment than where I pretend to be a tree hugger instead.

Do the empathy police have anything against Sainsburys? We on line shop there (no idea where the store is.). How about Elixir strings? I seem to spend my whole piggy bank on strings these days. Apple? Now... There's an interesting one. iPhone, iPad, iMac and MacBook Pro, as well as the iPod plumbed into the car. I'd have to take up onanism if I didn't have access to my iLife iSupport iMachines. Come to think about it, I'd need a computer of some description for that.......


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 04:19 AM

Ok - Story from the horses mouth on Workfare at Morrisons. They do not use the workfare scheme but have offered 3 day 'taster' sessions which are entirely voluntary and carry no conditions for those taking part. The statement from the company

We are offering a three day taster session of what it's like to work in the food sector as part of a nationwide initiative from the IGD called 'Feeding Britain's Future'. Over 100 companies are taking part. This is in no way connected to Workfare in which we do not take part. Candidates leave with a food safety certificate and CV writing and interview skills training. Last year, after giving 1,000 of these opportunities, we offered jobs to 96 of the candidates. This is completely voluntary. Nobody is forced to take part and nobody's benefits are at risk

So I, for one, am happy to continue shopping and working at Morrisons.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 01:29 AM

I suppose Fred and his mate Bridge will be interested to hear they have gone on strike in the Amazon basin building that new football stadium. Presumably that's the fault of Amazon too.

Notwithstanding my comment about the company not being ethical over tax, if they wish to be seen as ethical, I fail to see why the rush to condemn their UK operation? As many have pointed out, solidarity and ethical purchasing is a minefield as it is. Be buggered if people are having fools make them feel guilty over the most popular shopping medium that most of us use. They employ a hell of a lot if people too.

If I saw evidence they were bad I too would prefer not to shop there but I fail to be impressed by anything I read here or elsewhere. I stopped using Marks &Sparks when Th*tcher openly endorsed them. But apart from thinking twice before buying Osborn wallpaper, which is silly cos we paint our walls, I'm not interested in playing games.

If emotional blackmail works then where does it end? When we have to buy our sustenance beans from the collective hippy in the assigned yurt?


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 10:29 PM

petitions can be a way to put governments and companies under notice.

Could you give me some (particularly on-line) examples as to when this has recently happened? Because I really can't see it.

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:25 PM

Of course the givernment is at fault. The way we change governments is to vote them out, and to tell them we are planning to do that

And so is the company - and the way customers can vote them out is to boycott them, and let them know why.

Two kinds of democratic action.

And petitions can be a way to put governments and companies under notice.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 08:07 PM

"Saw something on the BBC that this and similar tax practices were being examined by a Parliamentary committee of some sort. Has any change been enacted?"

The examination does not necessarily result in change. Remember the Le Dain Commission in Canada.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:41 PM

Again, I can't comment on conditions in the UK or other EU countries.
If the British government allows them to "transfer prices to reduce taxable UK profits, the government is at fault.
If working conditions are poor, are they any better UK wide in similar warehousing jobs?

Saw something on the BBC that this and similar tax practices were being examined by a Parliamentary committee of some sort. Has any change been enacted?

Not surprised that an "undercover reporter" found the work difficult- he would not be used to any kind of physical labor.

The 15% temp labor probably applies throughout the selling industries; stores here make most of their profit during the holiday season, when temporary hiring is increased.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:38 PM

Embarassing mistake there. Sorry Mudcat!


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:35 PM

Well said, McGrath! You've said what I've been (in part) trying to say, only much better.

Except...
"If the result of publicity and of people avoiding using Mudcat is seen as hitting their profit, things can change."

I assume you meant Amazon, above - as opposed to Mudcat. Yes?


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:24 PM

Petitions don't in themselves make any significant difference. But for someone to sign a petition is a step towards doing something more effective, such as giving up using the company, and talking to other people so that maybe they do the same.

If the result of publicity and of people avoiding using Mudcat is seen as hitting their profit, things can change.

Obviously the main blame for allowing tax structures that make it possible for wealthy companies to avoid paying taxes falls on the governments involved. but the guilt for taking advantage of that kind of thing lies on the companies that do so. It's a kind of legalised theft, and the fact that theft is legal, or that the authorities don't enforce the law adequately, doesn't stop it being wrong.

I accept that that that's a kind of morality which many people do not recognise. But it's worth considering some of the other things that have been, and indeed still are, legal in various places and times.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:09 PM

Q, you display considerable ignorance. Amazon offshores key parts of its structure and then transfer prices to reduce taxable UK profits.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:25 PM

That's right, Q - Amazon is almost as benign and wonderful an employer as Wal Mart.

Not.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:57 PM

I'll try and find out about the workfare scheme. I am pretty sure no-one at head office is on it and when I have done my bit at the stores I did not hear of it but I shall endeavour to find out.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:49 PM

Joe Offer wrote: "I don't know what's the truth here, but I haven't heard of Amazon employees wanting to strike for better wages and working conditions. All I've heard about, is Internet petitions from people who haven't worked there."

Hi Joe,

I understand and appreciate your cautious approach to such things. It's true I haven't worked at Amazon - nor (I expect) have the people who started the petition I've posted here.

However, an undercover reporter did work at Amazon UK and was not exactly impressed by the working conditions he encountered. Likewise, if you have the time (I do know this is an extra-hectic time of year) to read the article I linked to - written by another reporter who worked for a very similar type of company - you will see the following:

"...I'm working for a gigantic, immensely profitable company. Or for the staffing company that works for that company, anyway. Which is a nice arrangement, because temporary-staffing agencies keep the stink of unacceptable labor conditions off the companies whose names you know. When temps working at a Walmart warehouse sued for not getting paid for all their hours, and for then getting sent home without pay for complaining, Walmart—not technically their employer—wasn't named as a defendant. (Though Amazon has been named in a similar suit.) Temporary staffers aren't legally entitled to decent health care because they are just short-term "contractors" no matter how long they keep the same job. They aren't entitled to raises, either, and they don't get vacation and they'd have a hell of a time unionizing and they don't have the privilege of knowing if they'll have work on a particular day or for how long they'll have a job. And that is how you slash prices and deliver products superfast and offer free shipping and still post profits in the millions or billions."

"Lots of... warehousing and distribution centers... use temps year-round. The Bureau of Labor Statistics found that more than 15 percent of pickers, packers, movers, and unloaders are temps. They make $3 less an hour on average than permanent workers. And they can be "temporary" for years. ... Often, temp workers have to call in before shifts to see if they'll get work. Sometimes, they're paid piece rate, according to the number of units they fill or unload or move. Always, they can be let go in an instant, and replaced just as quickly."


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:29 PM

Q wrote: "Wages paid to Amazon workers in the U. S. and Canada are well above minimum wage"

From (again) the article I originally linked to:
"...when I was hired I signed off on something acknowledging that anyone who leaves without at least a week's notice—whether because they're a journalist who will just walk off or because they miss a day for having a baby and are terminated—has their hours paid out not at their hired rate but at the legal minimum. Which in this state, like in lots of states, is about $7 an hour. Thank God that I... didn't need to pay for opting into Amalgamated's "limited" health insurance program. Because in my 10.5-hour day I'll make about $60 after taxes.

"[A guy] ...told me, as we were hustling to our stations, that this is actually the second time he's worked here: A few weeks back he missed some time for doctors' appointments when his arthritis flared up, and though he had notes for the absences, he was fired; he had to start the application process over again, which cost him an extra week and a half of work.

"There's no time off on Election Day. "What if I want to vote?" I ask a supervisor. "I think you should!" he says. "But if I leave I'll get fired," I say. To which he makes a sad face before saying, "Yeah." "

But I guess you're right Q. As long as they are paid "well above minimum wage", what on earth do they have to complain about?

And by the way, as I said previously (on 16 Dec 13 - 12:15 AM):
"I'm not talking about what they pay them. I'm talking about their working conditions." Likewise the petition I thought I'd publicise in this thread. Minimum wage is not the issue here.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 04:44 PM

Ed - Thanks very much for your response. I do appreciate it.

I admit, I don't know if the same (electric shock) thing is happening in the UK. Because of the article I linked to, I am much more aware of what's happening in the US. However, even if the electric shocks issue is not exactly the same here, compare this (from the petition above):

While secretly filming for the BBC and working for Amazon UK, undercover reporter Adam Littler had to fill orders relayed by a monitor mounted to his trolley. The monitor counted down the minimal seconds given to finish each task and find products stored in this huge, 800,000-square-foot facility. The menacing monitor also beeped every time he fell short of expectations and then snitched to management when his performance wasn't up to par. Adam then got a reprimand. At the end of the day, he was physically and emotionally exhausted -- and unlike his temporary colleagues, he didn't have to come back the next day.

to this (from the article I linked to):
"...I realize that for whatever relative youth and regular exercise and overachievement complexes I have brought to this job, I will never be able to keep up with the goals I've been given.
My scanner tells me in what exact section—there are nine merchandise sections, so sprawling that there's a map attached to my ID badge—of vast shelving systems the item I'm supposed to find resides. It also tells me how many seconds it thinks I should take to get there. Dallas sector, section yellow, row H34, bin 22, level D: wearable blanket. Battery-operated flour sifter. Twenty seconds. I count how many steps it takes me to speed-walk to my destination: 20. At 5-foot-9, I've got a decently long stride, and I only cover the 20 steps and locate the exact shelving unit in the allotted time if I don't hesitate for one second or get lost or take a drink of water before heading in the right direction as fast as I can walk or even occasionally jog.

"...I've started cringing every time my scanner shows a code that means the item I need to pick is on the ground, which, in the course of a 10.5-hour shift—much less the mandatory 12-hour shifts everyone is slated to start working next week—is literally hundreds of times a day. "How has OSHA signed off on this?" I've taken to muttering to myself. "Has OSHA signed off on this?" ("The thing about ergonomics," OSHA says when I call them later to ask, "is that OSHA doesn't have a standard. Best practices. But no laws.")

"...it hurts, oh, how my body hurts after failing to make my goals despite speed-walking or flat-out jogging and pausing every 20 or 30 seconds to reach on my tiptoes or bend or drop to the floor for 10.5 hours...

"By the fourth morning... my self-pity has turned into actual concern. There's a screaming pain running across the back of my shoulders. "You need to take 800 milligrams of Advil a day," a woman in her late 50s or early 60s advised me when we all congregated in the break room before work.

" "You'll feel carpal tunnel start to set in," one of the supervisors told me, "so you'll want to change hands." But that, too, he admitted, costs time, since you have to hit the bar code at just the right angle for it to scan, and your dominant hand is way more likely to nail it the first time. Time is not a thing I have to spare. I'm still only at 57 percent of my goal. ... I can break into goal-meeting suicide pace for short bouts, sure, but I can't keep it up for 10.5 hours."


It seems to me there are many issues in common. Unfortunately, I haven't seen the BBC programme yet (don't have a telly), but plan to watch it online - so it is possible I'm wrong - but based on the description of it, I feel pretty sure (I'd be willing to place a bet on it) that conditions in the UK are not a completely different ball of wax from conditions in the US.

IF there was a petition for the US that I knew of, I'd post it here as well. (I checked out the link that ChanteyLass posted, but it is old - and closed.) But since Amazon US and Amazon UK do not exist in their own little vacuums, I do assume that what happens to one may have (eventually) some impact on the other.

I am a US citizen and a UK resident - so you might say I am only "entitled" to sign petitions involving things in the US &/or UK.
I disagree. I don't see anything wrong with signing petitions concerning other countries. No doubt my signature will carry less weight than it would if I was a voter in that country, but even so - especially when a global corporation is concerned (one which - if they have any sense - will be paying attention to their image worldwide) - I don't think it hurts for them to see that people from other countries are taking an interest...


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 04:33 PM

"Amazon has an aversion to paying its taxes" - nonsense! They pay the taxes that are levied by the government, like every other business.
If the taxes are low, take it up with your representatives in your government.

Wages paid to Amazon workers in the U. S. and Canada are well above minimum wage; no one has quoted UK or German minimum wage scales and comparative Amazon wages.

In a few short years, Amazon now has $61 billion in sales, and a market value of $120 billion dollars. Public approval has been bestowed on them. They employ 110,000!


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 04:01 PM

Do you have any evidence that a similar situation applies in the UK?

Of course not. There's no such thing as static electricity in the UK. Nor anti-static coating and matting. Only thr Yanks have them.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 03:22 PM

Richard. Hear, bloody hear. And that's another point. Amazon's workers have an aversion to being zapped by static electricity. But Amazon has an aversion to paying its taxes.

CTTOI. Wasn't Amazon the location of a particular species of dinosaur? Amazonsaurus Maranhensis, I believe.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 03:09 PM

So there you go Mither. Just as I was starting to think you might have some ethics you come on like Bonzo 3legs on steroids.   Some socialist.   Up against the wall.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 02:45 PM

I'm a capitalist. I set up a business, built it up and sold it off. I never encouraged trade unionism and I ensured our workforce were valued.

Fred reckons that makes me bad. Well getting nostalgic for ignorant dinosaurs holding people to random ain't very pretty either.

Must dash. Need to order a German filter for my Korean fridge via Amazon.

Oh. I'm a socialist too.

21st century. No dividing lines. You need one to fund the ideals of the other. The likes of Amazon are with us and for most people, that's a wonderful thing. Including the many jobs it creates that don't need special formal skills. Just get the buggers to declare more earnings for tax and Fred & co can stand by braziers all day and night for what difference they will make.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 02:27 PM

YorkshireYankee,

Thanks for your reply. Firstly, I apologise if my response seemed unduly antogonistic. I didn't mean it to, although I'll admit that I get somewhat frustrated with these (doubtlessly) well-meaning, but ultimately futile petitions.

As far as my assertion regarding books/electric shocks is concerned, my point was that in order to get a static discharge, you need to touch something with high electrical conductivity (ie metal) not an insulator such as paper/cardboard.

I did briefly glance at your link, but when I saw that it referred to the USA, and that your issue was specifically with UK practices, I felt it irrelevant to the discussion, and did not read further.

Had you said that, "[employees] get an electric shock every time they touch a shelf", I wouldn't have called it ridiculous.

Do you have any evidence that a similar situation applies in the UK?

Ed


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 01:41 PM

Guest, Ed, wrote:
"So following this logic: given the long hours, 'back breaking' work and low pay that many farm workers have to put up with, I assume that you're going to stop buying food?

"As Steve had alluded to, the UK has a minimum wage and some of the most stringent health and safety and employee protection laws in the world.

I unassamedly use Amazon, and until I get better reasons than the ridiculous "[employees] get an electric shock every time they touch a book", I will continue to do so."

Hi Ed. Seems to me your response is a wee bit more antagonistic than is really called for, but I will try to answer your points reasonably.

As far as food goes, I do try to be aware of which foods come from places that don't treat people well, and buy accordingly: Fair Trade Chocolate, coffee, no California grapes, etc. I'm sure I'm not batting 100% - I know I could be doing much better - but I do think it's worth trying to act on the things that I'm aware of.

I suppose I could just think, "Nothing I ever do will make a difference, so why bother about anything?" - but I don't think I could live with myself if I took that approach. If you have something that's better/more effective, I'm all ears.

I believe the only real way to get any of these companies to pay attention is via a threat to their profits. If I'm the only one who says "I won't buy from you unless/until you treat your employees better," then sure, they won't give a hoot. But if enough of us do, then there's a decent chance they will change. Not out of the goodness of their hearts, of course - but to keep their image from being too tarnished.

As far as "[employees] get an electric shock every time they touch a book" being "ridiculous": if you had taken the time to read the link I provided before deciding what I said was "ridiculous", you would have read the following (excerpt from an account written by a reporter who worked as a "picker and packer" at one of these places):

In the books sector, in the cold, in the winter dryness, made worse by the fans and all the paper, I jet across the floor in my rubber-soled Adidas, pant legs whooshing against each other, 30 seconds according to my scanner to take 35 steps to get to the right section and row and bin and level and reach for Diary of a Wimpy Kid and "FUCK!" A hot spark shoots between my hand and the metal shelving. It's not the light static-electric prick I would terrorize my sister with when we got bored in carpeted department stores, but a solid shock, striking enough to make my body learn to fear it. I start inadvertently hesitating every time I approach my target. One of my coworkers races up to a shelving unit and leans in with the top of his body first; his head touches the metal, and the shock knocks him back. "Be careful of your head," he says to me. In the first two hours of my day, I pick 300 items. The majority of them zap me painfully.

"Please tell me you have suggestions for dealing with the static electricity," I say to a person in charge when the morning break comes. This conversation is going to cost me a couple of my precious few minutes to eat/drink/pee, but I've started to get paranoid that maybe it's not good for my body to exchange an electric charge with metal several hundred times in one day.


"Oh, are you workin' in books?"
"Yeah."

"No. Sorry." ... "They've done everything they can"—"they" are not aware, it would appear, that anti-static coating and matting exist—"to ground things up there but there's nothing you can do."

=========

Do you still think the thing about the electric shocks is "ridiculous"?


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 01:34 PM

The strikes at Amazon(Germany) are nothing new. Amazon says it pays according to the logistics industry tariff whereas the union considers that payment and conditions should be according to the tariff for shop and mail-order workers- somewhat higher than the logistics tariff. The current strike is a two-day affair at three distribution centres.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 10:12 AM

Oh god, here we go again. Striking miners and warehouse operatives holding the rest of us to ransom. I'll remember that the next time some filthy rich capitalist decides to close down an entire industry and re-open in the far east because he can get all the dirt cheap sweated labour he wants at a fraction of the cost.

Don't talk to me about workers holding the country to ransom.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:52 AM

This is really a wider issue. If one likes a bargain, things dirt cheap, cheaper than the usual stores, then it's obvious a price is being paid somewhere that isn't pretty. It goes for all that Made In China stuff, Pakistani goods produced by exhausted children, etc etc. And at the top of the pyramid sits a fat man/woman raking it in, oblivious to the sweated labour that made them rich. So, the only way forward is to consider a bit before buying. If it's really cheap and a superb bargain, it's probably not ethically produced. If you go ahead anyway, you're doing your bit to prolong the suffering.

Now, the other side:-

If people stop buying these goods (whether from Amazon, China, or anywhere else) the workers won't be exhausted, they'll be out of work. In some cases this could be a total disaster for them. Their families could truly suffer deprivation and in the developing countries, fragile economies could fold altogether.

The answer? Fairer distribution of wealth, fairer wages, fairer working conditions, fairer prices. How to achieve this? Haven't a clue.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:27 AM

Yeah let's all celebrate.

When Heidi grows up, we can find someone to explain why Santa didn't come this year. Let's hold the population at large to ransom!

Tends to remind me why I celebrated leaving The NUM far more than leaving my career to date back in 1985.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:18 AM

Great Breaking News! I've just heard on the BBC news headlines that Amazon workers in Germany have said enough and gone os strike for better wages.

All power to their elbows.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:48 AM

The last I read was that the Mudcat/Amazon link was purely in the US.

Personally I have stopped using Amazon because the Tax situation in the UK, plus I discovered they don't publish vender location easily (try at least 2 removes in obscure links) which means you miss the chance to choose the delivery times (try 6 weeks) - OK I know how now, but Ebay publish relevant data before you think of buying. I have always been uneasy on how they (direct from Amazon) undersell all other schmucks they list on their site.

Now I have more reason to avoid Amazon, the last item I wanted cost less than 1 GBP more (inc postage) than Amazon and came the next working day from a UK vendor not on any aggregator site - like Amazon or Ebay are. nd when I do that I get a phone call if I get things wrong. (As if!)


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:59 AM

"Black the place."

Interesting choice of words Fred....

Amazon are by far the best price for caviar and a bottle of Pol Roger, so I doubt they will lose popularity too quickly.

It is a minefield trying to be ethical. The best you can do is define ethics for starters. I don't lose sleep over anything I purchase regardless of source, as the bloke wringing his hands and researching every sausage he hands money over for may be doing someone a bad turn himself.

I used to hate Xmas shopping. Did the whole bloody lot yesterday courtesy of mainly Amazon but one or two bits via other warehouse companies. Sorted.

Subjective emotional blackmail never works. If the vast majority of people felt the bottom line wasn't their most important consideration, the likes of Amazon wouldn't even exist. People buy on price. Sure, I buy as much as I can from the farm shop adjoining my own land to look after the neighbours, and I am sure the supermarkets are cheaper. But better quality? The Amazons of this world can supply both, and for that matter, I know a couple of people who work at their Doncaster operation, so by any logic, I am helping them keep their job.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:58 AM

Richard. I don't know if this is true but I have heard that Aldi pays its workers well above the average. Can anyone confirm or deny?

Most of the stuff they sell is pretty good quality as well.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:54 AM

Joe. You're quite correct. Amazon's employees don't do much in the way of strike action. That's probably because Amazon would come down like a ton of bricks on anyone trying organise a campaign for better wages and conditions. What happens instead is that employees leave in vast numbers, which in itself makes for difficult union organisation.

A number of people have asked whether conditions are as bad in other areas of the service sector. Well, I've done quite a few poorly paid jobs in my time and it's the best way I know of getting treated like shit. So there's plenty of scrooge employers besides Amazon, but I suspect that Amazon is the worst of a very bad bunch.

And BTW., I wan't saying don't boycott or petition. Both tactics can be very useful. But in the final analysis only industrial action will force employers like Amazon to see reason.

Hang on though. Isn't that why Maggie Thatcher spent so long destroying the unions in the fist place?


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:33 AM

AFAIK Morrisons take on people under the UK workfare scheme (so that those in question receive only the benefits they would otherwise receive, not a proper wage, but are obliged to work 40 hours per week - or it might be 30 hours per week). They pretend that those taken on receive training. I did challenge this on their facebook page and they did not deny it although they did try to justify it. As a result I now shop at ALDI LIDL or Sainsbury's since there is no useful nearby Waitrose.

Tesco also use this sort of slave labour, likewise ASDA, so there's no point in switching to them if you want to do ethical shopping.

I am very reluctant to use Amazon, and will only do so if I cannot source something I want elsewhere. I'm doing well for second-hand DVDs on ebay at the moment, and saving money too.


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Subject: RE: UK Petition: Amazon mistreats workers!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 03:46 AM

how Amazon is any different from Tesco/Asda/Marks 'n' Sparks/Morrisons/care homes?

Not sure about the others but I work for Morrisons and they seem pretty ethical. If not, let me know and I will see if I can start change from within!

Cheers

DtG


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