BS: Breastfeeding In Public

Subject: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:27 AM

There's quite a fracas going on here in UK at the moment about women breastfeeding their babies in full view of the public. A woman was asked to remove herself from view outside a pub, and another from a hospital department. We have a Law which forbids discriminatory actions against mothers, but many people feel the sight is distasteful. There have been vituperative complaints from both sides. Personally I think there's no sight more tender and delightful than seeing a woman suckling her child, and I wouldn't care wherever she did so. IMV we need to encourage young mums to offer the breast as it's so much better for the child's health and well-being. I suppose we just aren't used to it. In Africa of course, breasts are no big deal. Even without a baby attached, ladies go about 'topless' if the day is particularly hot. I never minded this either. Most babies in hot countries are breast fed as it prevents germs from bottles getting into the little one's system. Anyone got any views either way?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:30 AM

A light blanket goes a long way to protecting both the mother and the baby from chilling drafts and stares.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:32 AM

"Many people feel the sight is distasteful . . . " Too bad for them, they are in need of rewiring their understanding of what is natural and appropriate. It's one of the most beautiful things to participate in or to view. I agree with Eliza.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:56 AM

I certainly have no issue with it and actively campaigned for when my little 'uns were little enough to benefit. However, I am not fully convinced that it is OK simply because it is natural. It is perfectly natural to perform other bodily functions too, procreation and defecation springing to mind immediately, but I don't think many would really want to witness either in public. It is a very fine line as to where rights stop and sensitivities begin. Maybe all things need to be considered rather than have a blanket (no pun intended, Rap) rule that covers all?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 11:03 AM

If the breastfeeding mothers would display a little restraint, common sense and respect for others, there would be no problem & breast feeding could go on unimpeded.

However, I expect that's too much to hope for.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 11:33 AM

IOf the breastfeeding mothers would display a little restraint, common sense and respect for others, there would be no problem & breast feding could go on unimpeded.

This is not always true. A while back at a restaurant nearby a woman was breastfeeding in a very discreet way (that was never debated) and she was still asked to leave. She was out of the way and covered up.

It is purely social convention that makes it taboo and that would take time to change but change it could. DtG compared it to defecating in public, I don't think they are quite the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 11:39 AM

DtG compared it to defecating in public

No I didn't! I said feeding, procreating and defecating are all natural functions. As is, apparently, getting hold of the wrong end of the stick :-(

You are quite right about social convention though and the point I was trying to make is that it is a very fine line between what is and what is not socially acceptable.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 12:08 PM

Sorry, DtG but when I reread your comment I still think you were making a comparison. You mention two other bodily functions that many people don't want to see, just like many people don't want to see breastfeeding. How is that not a comparison?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 12:21 PM

The situation has improved in Scotland:

Breastfeeding Act (2005)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 12:47 PM

Someday I would like to interview... at length... someone who is 'offended' by the practice. I'd like to know exactly what they are upset over. Surely it is not hungry babies. I assume it is an obsession with the *idea* of a breast being 'exposed'... and even if there is no exposure, they seem to be uncomfortable with the fact that the baby is making them 'aware' of a breast. And this indicates to me that those who object have likely categorized breasts as *primarily* sexual objects and can't get out of that mindset, even when it is not relevant.

Somehow, it reminds me of the old joke about the guy taking the Rorschach ink blot test and seeing naughty images in each one... and when asked why, replies, "But doctor, you're the one with the dirty pictures."

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:01 PM

Social conventions can change over time. After all, the Victorians were shocked if they saw an ankle, but one wouldn't march topless into M&S (although having seen their spring collection, it might cheer things up a bit) But I feel so sorry for these little mums being tutted at and disparaged simply for feeding their babies. Why should they hide 'it' under a blanket? People who are embarrassed should just look at something else while they pass. No-one is asking them to go up and look. I remember in the sixties when topless sunbathing came into fashion on Mediterranean beaches. I was all for it and got amazed stares from some Moroccan camel-ride chaps. It was inappropriate in a Muslim country, but they accepted it on the beach. I just wish people would be more tolerant generally. If I saw anyone being nasty to a feeding mum. I'd have something to say. People should try a bit of kindness and understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Bert
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:07 PM

I'm with you Eliza, it is quite normal. I thought it was culturally acceptable in England, I know it used to be when I was there.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:18 PM

One of our nieces was in the peace corp in Africa for awhile just before she got married; when she became a mom, she just pushed her top up or down as convenient and fed the little one. The wife of one of our nephews strolled around talking with people at his cousins pre-wedding dinner with their little son openly attached. They're the only two women I've seen breastfeed that openly in many years. In either instance, my only problem was keeping from making an idiot of myself by burbling something about how beautiful it was.

Some Mudcat folks helped me title this carving a few years ago

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:20 PM

Back in the 1930s I remember that a few of the Indian women who came to sell their wares in my home town, Santa Fe, would nurse in public. The Anglo and old Latino population to which I belonged regarded it as a primitive expression.

Today, the Indians no longer do it, bending to the "societal norm."

A silly convention, but one inherited from our Western European origins.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:20 PM

Well, it is and it isn't, if you know what I mean Bert. This poor lady was asked by the pub manager to go away and do 'it' somewhere in private (such as the toilet!!) Another was chased out of a hospital dept where she was having a blood test. Her husband was with her and could hold the baby while she gave the blood, however the newborn little one was screaming hungry and needed a feed. But the dept secretary told her off. A passing nurse found her a private room to do the dirty deed in. But she was in tears. I do admire the Scots, Jack. I've read your link and that's a good Law.
NHS advisors are trying to promote 'breast is best' but it's no good IMO treating it like a rather distasteful and embarrassing act, needing a special place for it to happen. Babies should be popped on the breast whenever and wherever they need a feed. Why not? I don't see it as being in the same category as defecating or weeing in public, which presents a health risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:34 PM

I am not arguing, KB. I was not attempting to make a comparison. If that is how you saw it I apologise for my poor Iowan :-) If you do not accept that, fair enough, but please don't try to tell me what I meant to say.

Thanks

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:36 PM

I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss.
I agree with Bill AND Dave here, babies need to be fed, but it is not unreasonable to pay attention to the feelings of others in society.
My wife breast fed our children, but would never have done so in public, she considered it a very private and personal time between mother and child.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: mg
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:45 PM

I believe in being able to do it in public spaces, but I think that the mother should attempt modesty as well...different if you are just with friends etc. Modesty is easy in cool weather with a tiny baby and as things get warmer and baby gets bigger it gets more difficult but you can still turn to the side or whatever usually. When the kid gets old enough to have a conversation about it...might be an idea to reserve for nighttime feedings..but that is up to parents. Some women can be pretty blatant...and anthropologists have pointed out that nursing is not the only major purpose of the breast...otherwise humans would be sort of like apes..not too much there..it has evolved as a strong visual cue to inspire mating behavior and to dismiss that aspect of it is ignoring biology.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 02:01 PM

Fair enough DtG. I am not looking for an argument either, that was just how I read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 02:53 PM

Having seen babies in Africa spend the first 18 months of their lives on their mums' back, being swung round to feed at any time, and while their mothers are seated, being held within inches of the breast for comfort as well as for suckling, I feel that anthropologists should consider the basic animal need of a baby (of any mammalian species) for this access and reassurance. If strident feminists are making an issue of it all, perhaps the best way to defuse their capers is to make no fuss at all about nursing mums. That way, the activists wouldn't have anything to demonstrate about. (Rather like the Suffragettes. Once they got the vote, all went quiet.)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: gnu
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 03:51 PM

I read as far as the third post which was by SRS. I ditto SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 03:54 PM

More power to the strident feminists. And a pox on repressionists like Akenhateon.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Musket
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 04:05 PM

Silly women. Feminists....

Leopards and spots spring to mind.

I reckon the threads on creationism have forget a factor. Dinosaurs haven't died just yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 04:28 PM

So Gnu- one need not consider the sensibilities of others?

Whu Gnu!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 04:56 PM

Plenty of adult men do not consider the sensibilities of others when needing to pee. Though I haven't seen one doing it in a restaurant - and it never used to happen when I was younger.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Major Mustard
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 05:10 PM

Natural?its natural for Homo Sapiens to walk around naked.
But society does not allow it, thank god, Tunbridge Wells would be disgusting if they allowed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 05:11 PM

I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss.
I agree with Bill AND Dave here, babies need to be fed, but it is not unreasonable to pay attention to the feelings of others in society.
My wife breast fed our children, but would never have done so in public, she considered it a very private and personal time between mother and child.

How nice of you to agree that babies need to be fed. You are a complete and utter disgrace. You shouldn't be allowed out of your bloody house.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 06:05 PM

Like, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 06:49 PM

To be fair to akenaton, perhaps he's talking about a time some years ago, when, as his wife found, breast-feeding in public wasn't quite so acceptable. Another point I feel needs to be made is that young babies get very distressed and frantic when hungry. It can be upsetting for the mother when her baby is screaming for a feed. One can't tell the little scrap to wait until nobody's looking! I also get annoyed when people suggest the mum heads for a public toilet. I couldn't think of a more ghastly place to sit and feed one's baby. I admit that I've never been blessed with a child, so can't speak from personal experience, but it only requires a modicum of kindness and concern to sympathise with mums and babies in this situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 07:09 PM

Plenty of adult men do not consider the sensibilities of others when needing to pee.

So one group of insensitive assholes legitimizes another group of the same?

Wonderful. Or fascinating, as Mr. Spock would say.....

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 07:39 PM

Alternatively, perhaps one group of insensitive assholes demanding everyone else conforms to their view of the world... Every coin has two sides, Greg.

As Eliza has already pointed out, tits (yes, I'm being deliberately spiky) are no big deal in Africa. Defecation is no big deal in some parts of the world either. I seem to remember something I once read about Japanese parents lifting their small son up so he could crap out of the window of a moving train. Shit is clean, or words to that effect, was the explanation i.e. it's no big deal; certainly much more polite than trampling through many fellow commuters on a crowded train. So they thought...

In other words, attitudes are not absolute, they are culturally ingrained. So who is the one with the problem? The one doing what comes naturally, or the one who, as a result of their cultural conditioning, finds it offensive?

I'm not subscribing to any particular point of view here. I'm a bloke. If I need to pee, I'll pee as discreetly as I possibly can. In a toilet for preference; up a dark alleyway, in the bushes, or as close to the tree trunk as I can get, if that's what available & I'm busting. What's the big deal?

Why anyone feels the need to fuss about breast-feeding is beyond me. If you don't like it, look away. Is that so hard? Who is the one being inconsiderate?

It's about the 5th most natural function in the world. You can't get by without sleeping, eating, and defecating. Shagging is optional, but necessary from the point of view of the species. No breast-feeding without shagging.

If you see what I mean... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 08:12 PM

"The sensitivities of others" - who choose to be offended. I don't give them the time of day.

Human are mammals and mammals feed their babies milk. It's that simple. And when you add in the human development benefits of the eye contact between a nursing child and mother, nothing is more natural or perfect. those who choose to get bent out of shape make that choice based upon flawed understanding of how important it is for babies to nurse at their mothers' breasts.

Years ago now, in Central Texas, my husband and I had our daughter with us at a friend's restaurant one evening. A Chinese restaurant. My daughter was fussing and my friend (from Taiwan) came by to point out that she gave us that booth so we had some privacy because in China it was perfectly acceptable for mothers to nurse children in public. I could nurse and eat and talk with others, and my daughter was pretty much hidden by both the table and a small blanket I carried in her diaper bag. Not only did my my friend make it possible, she made it clear that in parts of the world it is expected that you nurse a hungry baby when they are hungry.

Those of us who successfully nursed children for a long period of time until the child was ready to be weaned (about 2 1/2 years) owe it to other mothers to be supportive and offer helpful advice, or run interference, as needed.

Salma Hayek has a great, and very natural attitude toward nursing.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Noreen
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 08:52 PM

I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss.

Who? When? I have NEVER seen or heard of this happening. You mean many "silly" women have a baby just so they can cause a fuss over feeding in public?

I have on the other hand, heard of others choosing to turn this into an "issue, just to cause a fuss", when the mum quietly feeding her baby was nothing whatever to do with them.

And that makes me very angry.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 08:55 PM

In other words, attitudes are not absolute, they are culturally ingrained. So who is the one with the problem? The one doing what comes naturally, or the one who, as a result of their cultural conditioning, finds it offensive?

Just a couple of rather basic points here. First, babies need feeding. Second, no-one on this planet has the right to be not offended. The very best way to feed a baby is by breast-feeding. Substitutes just don't measure up. If you see a woman breast-feeding, you are one hundred and ten percent at liberty to not watch. If you watch, then complain, you are a bloody pervert.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:02 PM

I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss.

Who? When? I have NEVER seen or heard of this happening. You mean many "silly" women have a baby just so they can cause a fuss over feeding in public?

I have on the other hand, heard of others choosing to turn this into an "issue, just to cause a fuss", when the mum quietly feeding her baby was nothing whatever to do with them.

And that makes me very angry.

So it should. But I should like to point out, lest it be overlooked, that the perpetrator of the post you quite rightly take exception to (as do I) is Akenaton. A man who is well-known here for his illiberal (aka homophobic) views on gay people and on gay marriage and on anything else, it appears, that impinges on bodies and sex and caring properly for infants. Very, very nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:41 PM

Ake said his wife nursed their children. That she wouldn't do it in public - I think she is also a generation or two older than the women nursing today, a more modest generation. My mother didn't have enough information or help from the doctor and didn't nurse any of us for more than a couple of weeks ("you don't have enough milk, give them a bottle" was his answer, instead of understanding that babies go through growth spurts and you nurse through them extra for a few days and then everything is fine - it's a demand and supply system). More power to Ake's wife for nursing her children in a time when a lot of women didn't know how. I suspect he enjoyed watching them - because it is pretty amazing to watch a child nurse at it's mother's breast.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:49 PM

I find it pretty normal myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:19 PM

Actually I still like nibbling on those things, but my wife won't let me do it in public...

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Janie
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:35 PM

I guess I'm quite surprised this is still, on occasion, an issue. I was 42 when I had my kid, who is now a young man, and never encountered any problems or askance glances when I was breast feeding, lo! those many years ago.

Never made a public spectacle of it, never seemed to attract much attention. It is really very easy to breast feed an infant in a public space while remaining modest and/or respecting the reasonably modest sensibilities that one might anticipate other, perhaps more conservative, folks might have when breastfeeding in public. (not the same as surreptitious, btw.)

I understand that cultural norms vary. I don't know the circumstances that have resulted in the uproar to which Eliza refers and don't want to make assumptions. I suppose it is possible that some folks want to make a "statement" and may be rather exhibitionist about breast feeding. Also, in places much more diverse in terms of nationalities and immigrants than where I have lived, there may be some cultural differences of which an immigrant to more western puritan environs may be unaware.

Where I lived and where I went at that time, which is all I know about, there perhaps were and still are people who were/are outraged by a woman breastfeeding an infant in public under any circumstance, but I never had anyone comment or complain "to management" in a public place, and I don't think that is the norm in most places and venues I am likely to find myself.   

Dress appropriately for the occasion, I always say, and when breast feeding, wear a nice scarf for insurance. Takes just a little education to understand what to wear on the upper torso to make breast feeding in public a discreet enterprise.

I also would think that most folks in a public place would prefer to share space with a quiet, nursing child in the booth, on the bus, or at the table beside them than to a screaming, hungry infant.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:48 PM

Well Pope Francis recently told mother in the Sistine Chapel to go ahead and breastfeed them.

"Today the choir will sing, but the most beautiful choir of all is the choir of the infants who will make a noise. Some will cry because they are not comfortable or because they are hungry," Francis said, according to Reuters. "If they are hungry, mothers, feed them, without thinking twice. Because they are the most important people here."

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,bbc on vacation
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 11:04 PM

My kids are now 29 & 32, but, when they were babies, I nursed each of them for an extended time. I fed them when they needed to be fed (or for comfort), regardless of where we were. I did, however, wear loose tops that would "blouse" over my breast, for modesty's sake. In this, as in many things, I think some balance makes sense.

Best,

Barbara

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Janie
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 11:22 PM

I hope this isn't too much thread drift. I think it is related. I used the word 'conservative' above and also 'puritan.' Now realizing those are not necessarily the salient descriptors, based on my own experience.

My grandparents were United/Old Regular Baptists, through and through. Folks in the USA will probably know what that means, though maybe not folks from across the pond. Very strict/ modest/this is right this is wrong. Morally very conservative though not politically conservative. And very practical people. My grandmother died at age 93 exactly 2 months after my son was born. The entire time at her wake, he was on my breast - he was colickly and fussy otherwise. The deacon had us form a prayer circle - intense and fervent experience with Old Regular Baptists - and my gassy infant kept cadence with the prayer, farting more frequently and loudly as the fervor of the prayer intensified. We heathens and the old-line old Testament, and mostly quite elderly Christians smiled and giggled throughout without embarrassment or condemnation. After the prayer circle I retreated a little bit to a quiet corner and kept my son at my breast - he was content latched on to my breast, whether snoozing or actively nursing - as opposed to squalling like a banshee otherwise at that tender time of his gastric and attachment development. I was discreet and respectful and also obviously had a baby at my breast. All those country folks, 'conservative' as can be, 'puritan' as can be by conventional definition, but especially the eldest or the 'countriest', made sure to seek me out to offer their condolences, and to comment on and admire the youngest of my grandmother's line without exhibiting any discomfort or inhibition whatsoever at approaching a mother with a child at her breast. Maybe it is the difference between country folks and city folks, I don't know. But I do know how very morally conservative and biblically literal were the tribe and church of my grandparents. But to them, a babe at the breast of a mother was nothing to shun or to avert one's eyes from - at least providing there is nothing exhibitionist in the 'tableau.' A nursing mother was as normal and natural to them as a nursing calf or sheep.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 03:49 AM

Perhaps I should have added to my original post that the 'fracas' here in UK started when a mum breastfed outside a pub and the manager came out and chased her away. The upshot was that a large (20 or so) angry group of militant mums arrived and overtly breastfed their babies on the same spot. Apparently, this has happened a few times when a mum has been made to feel ashamed like this; a Swat team of nursing militants arrive in droves and do the deed waving placards and flaunting slogan-printed T shirts etc. I find this amusing and quite see their point of view. If people continue to persecute a lone mum in this way, then maybe a huge group of insistent ladies will turn the tide. I'm really heartened by the responses here on Mudcat. And I'm delighted with the 2005 Scottish Law enacted to protect mums from persecution. Having experienced the African way of life, I can see how daft our Westernised uptight attitudes actually are. I'm not sure about weeing in public, although in W Africa it's always accepted any old where. I had to quickly explain to my husband when he arrived in UK that he must not have a casual wee on the street. But that's different because it's unhygienic. I suppose the bottom line is, I hate to see anyone made to feel ashamed and upset for merely tending to her child and doing nobody any harm. By the way, my husband assures me that breasts are of absolutely no interest to men there. They are not a sexual turn on, any more than one's nose or one's ears! It's bottoms they like. Interesting that.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Musket
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:00 AM

Don't mention that men like bottoms Eliza! You'll have our resident Major Misunderstanding embarrass himself again by taking it out of context ;-)

It has to be said though. It is commendable to remove stigma and nonsense over offence in this necessary function. But what you can't either legislate for nor socially condition is the reflex action of most men to quickly cast a glance. Sorry, it is instinct not conscious action. It ain't going alter either. So long as we don't exacerbate our position by asking that if you are selling those puppies, I'll have the one with the pink nose, I am sure we can reach a consensus.

Funnily enough, at the time most of us actually think women are impressed that our eyes are cast slightly downwards when chatting them up.

Granted, we have much to learn.









Officer.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:10 AM

Well, there again Musket, men's interest is also entirely natural. What I dislike is people tutting and moving the poor little mum on, or shoving her into a toilet in disgrace to nurse. I can't see why people get their knickers in such a twist. (Oh dear, mustn't mention knickers either I suppose! tee hee) Luckily for me I am very well-endowed in the bottom department, so my husband is quite content!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Musket
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:30 AM

Men's interest is entirely natural, as you say.

I am full square behind any attempt to shout down people who enjoy being outraged. They love controlling others and a plague on their houses.

I just needed to point out that no matter how much it is a norm, feeding mothers will always have to put up with the odd glance. I don't see how instinct can be removed. Breasts are objects of supreme fascination to many men. I even went as far as marrying a breast surgeon!

For the record, legs, bums and red high heels have to be factored in too with most of us.

We are simple souls at heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: eddie1
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:49 AM

I had a studio guest + baby on my radio programme. The baby was getting a bit fractious (and probably bored). In the middle of the interview, and without a break in her contribution, she breast fed her baby.
I actually felt quite privileged that she considered this OK in my presence!

The baby does not have too much choice in deciding when she/he is going to be hungry and can't be talked out of it. Provided the mother is not driving or in any other potentially dangerous situation - go for it! If anyone is offended, look away or go somewhere else!

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:12 AM

Another one of those silly feminists I suppose :-S

Absolutely preposterous.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:33 AM

I'm not THAT bloody old Eliza. :0)

The point I was making was explained to me by my wife, who reckons that breast feeding is part of the mother and child bonding process, and involves much more than just filling the child's belly.
It is and very personal relationship, giving both to mother AND child, and involving touch, sounds and satisfaction through feeding.
It should not be used as a political weapon to gain feminist status, to do so is a form of abuse.
The ideology of "self" seems to be everywhere, look how the gang of three can't wait to dive on every remark or statement that they think they can demonise.....pitiful.
I like to discuss all issues, this thread has nothing to do with homosexuality , but the "liberal" doctrine hides in every thread, waiting to pounce.

These issues are always much more complex than we think, and involve complex emotional reactions....certainly too complex to be pigeon holed by idiotic political activists.....male or female.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:38 AM

It is not a complex issue at all. A complex issue is sterilising a bottle, having a supply of sterile water at just the right temperature, especially if you're out and about, measuring the right amount of (second-rate) feed to mix, making sure the teat is germ-free and holding it at the correct angle to the baby's mouth until your arm nearly drops off. That's what I call complex. Alternatively, you expose your breast and put the baby to it. That's what I call simple. So simple, in fact, that even a baby can do it. And I can't remember ever seeing a woman whip out her breast for her baby in order to use it as a political weapon. Generally speaking, they seem to do it in order to feed the baby. It's illiberal people like you who turn perfectly natural things into "political issues".

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:50 AM

What 'gang of 3' and what liberal doctrine, ake? Am I included and is it the doctrine that says statements like "I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss." are no longer socially acceptable?

I have already said it is a complex issue about balancing the needs of a mother and child and social acceptability. I also agree that It should not be used as a political weapon but, by your saying this, you imply that there a significant number of 'silly women' doing the same. What did you expect the reaction to labeling breast feeding mothers as 'silly women' would be? Did you not stop to consider the offense you may cause to any women on here who have breast fed in public and endured the type of abuse that you are happy to repeat?

Maybe you are one of those stupid men who turn this into a "PC gone mad" issue just to cause a fuss? You know you once commented that you had very little basic education? Have you not heard the phrase that you are never too old to learn? Maybe it is time you started.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 11:27 AM

You're the one trying to make an argument, Steve, instead of simply accepting akenaton's point of view and moving on. He thinks it's complicated - and it is, in some ways. Breastfeeding is the easiest way to feed a baby, but cultural barriers were erected by those who chose the bottle decades ago and new generations are rethinking that artificial standard and the health complications that arose from cows milk and formula. They are accustomed to the artificial methods of feeding babies, and I would guess that people protest nursing in public spaces (discretely or not) because they don't know better. Educating them is complicated.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 12:45 PM

Helloo? I don't recall being the one referring to silly women turning it into a feminist issue just to annoy us tender souls who might actually get an outrageous glimpse of disgusting bare breast (if we stare hard enough). You know, I'd have thought that one of the points of a forum which discusses controversial issues is that we can express sharp intolerance of illiberal views emanating from backwoodsmen, such as the one above. Like I said, you have better targets if you really want targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 12:58 PM

Odd j

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,major mudcat
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 01:08 PM

Why should not women breast feed in public, why should not we all walk around naked? I do not get upset by women breast feeding.
As a naturist,I also believe we should be allowed to wak round stark naked.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 01:44 PM

We haven't yet touched on the issue of milk-formula companies having a vested interest in promoting bottle over the breast. I notice they've invented 'follow-up milk' now, as they know full well women understand the importance of breast milk for their babies. I imagine they'd be ever so delighted if women were ashamed to breastfeed in public and chose a bottle instead.
Sorry akenaton if I branded you as a doddery old thing. As I'm one, I tend to treat everyone else like that too. Many apologies! :)
I agree with major mudcat about naturism and nothing being shameful. The trouble is, cultural taboos prevent such a total commitment to nature. In Africa, legs are totally taboo. A lady can go around topless all day (and they often do) but if she wears a shortish skirt instead of the pagne (traditional wrap-around cloth, maxi length) people will jeer and spit on her. A kindly neighbour will run out with a spare pagne and wrap it round her for decency (so my husband tells me).
If I became a naturist, people would have terrible nightmares. My bottom alone would blot out the sun and be a danger to traffic.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 02:29 PM

Steve Shaw opined:

babies need to be fed, but it is not unreasonable to pay attention to the feelings of others in society.

Fair enough, as far as it goes.

But equally, it is not reasonable to expect slavish obedience
to the demands of others in society just because of their prurient
personal feelings.

"Pay attention", yes; "obey", no.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 03:04 PM

We haven't yet touched on the issue of milk-formula companies having a vested interest in promoting bottle over the breast.

Probably because that has bugger-all to do with the point under discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 03:31 PM

Well it has. As I've just said, if people can be persuaded that breastfeeding is not 'nice' in public, mums may feel more comfortable using a bottle. This means more formula milk sold, and profits for the companies that manufacture it. And why use the expression 'bugger all'? You sound a bit cross, but I can't see why.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:08 PM

I'm with Eliza on this! Back in the late sixties and early seventies when my wife was breast feeding my daghter and then my son, for a short time both at once, we never had any comment at all from bystanders, who accepted it as a normal part of existence. Some averted their gaze, some took a quick and slightly apologetic peek, none of which bothered my wife.

But nobody EVER complained.

By the time that my daughter was breast feeding her first, she was directed to some quite insanitary places (toilets etc.), by staff who were ASSUMING that customers MIGHT be offended.

Now, I don't mind anybody coming to me and saying "This, or that, sight is offensive to me".

I may, or may not, take notice!

But there is one thing that will elicit a vigorous and vociferous response from me (and not in a good way), and that is when anyone professes to be offended on behalf of someone else, or some nebulous group.

He will hear MY expression of displeasure, and so will everybody else within earshot of a hypothetical bomb blast.

Such was the case when dining out with daughter on more than one occasion. Some complainers still remember how quickly a venue can be emptied.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: maeve
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:40 PM

Cindy Kallet's classic take on the issue:

http://cindykallet.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Im-a-Mammal.pdf

And another classic, by Janet Russell:

"Breastfeeding Babies in the Park"

(Both links for lyrics only- well worth digging up a recording online or on a cd. No time now, but I can help with both.)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: olddude
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:52 PM

Well my daughter uses a blanket but when a creep starts taking photos or trying to then grandpa has a conversation that involves some form of violence as I mentioned in my thread his cell phone didn't fair well

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:44 PM

Steve Shaw opined:

babies need to be fed, but it is not unreasonable to pay attention to the feelings of others in society.

Fair enough, as far as it goes.

For the record, Dave, Steve Shaw opined no such thing. That was Akenaton, a bloke whose views on this and on many other matters are as far removed from mine as can be. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 11:54 PM

I am amazed that people sit quiet through ethnic cleansing, forced famine, drone attacks and such things, and then fuss when a woman feeds a baby. That's just me, though...

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:52 AM

Dear moderator

When you censor my posts, please remove the one that accidentally posted before I got anywhere with the typing as well.

After all, we can't have the boys and girls thinking I said something, can we?

I bet you can't think whose comments I questioned?

Sick puppy

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 04:11 AM

I was on the top deck of a bus the other day and spotted a young woman, with a long, diaphanous shawl around her shoulders, sat at a pavement cafe having a coffee. I suddenly realised that the shawl was to protect her 'modesty' and that under it she was breast feeding her baby. There was nothing, even vaguely, offensive about this sight - I thought that it was rather pleasing and she looked rather beautiful and elegant. My only slight concern was that I should respect her privacy and didn't want her to catch me staring - so looked away.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 05:11 AM

I agree with Troubadour that staff at dining establishments and waiting rooms etc can hardly complain 'on behalf' of others, assuming that these 'others' object to breastfeeding without actually asking them. It reminds me of the quite mad 'Winterval' substitute for Christmas, in an attempt not to offend Muslims, who stridently pointed out they weren't in the least offended anyway. The 2 song lyrics posted by maeve are very good, especially the point that 'page 3' ladies can bare all for sexual titillation (sorry!) but a simple feeding activity is found to be indecent in some way. Those that say the baby can wait, or the mother should go in a toilet, or slip a shawl over herself (shades of Muslim veils here) make me cross. Why the blazes should she? I must look up the exact wording of the law for England on all this, and see if it's the same as the excellent one of 2005 in Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 05:37 AM

Don't see what all the stooshie is about, there are silly men and silly women in all sectors of society, all feminist issues are not "silly".

I think this particular one has been over hyped, and the true purpose of breast feeding ignored.
Its a two way bonding process, as well as a means of getting nutrition into an infant, as such it is private and personal.
I don't think anyone gets upset over the sight of a bare breast, it's more about the deeper emotions involved for mother and child.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: maeve
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:38 AM

Humor/humour is more effective than stridency. Two singers I admire greatly for this approach are:

Cindy Kallet "I'm a Mammal" Lyrics here "I'm a Mammal" (listen here)

And Janet Russell    "Breastfeeding Baby in the Park" (lyrics) "Breastfeeding Baby in the Park" (listen here)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: maeve
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:40 AM

Drat- thought my late night post with the song links hadn't taken- sorry for re-posting unnecessarily!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:40 AM

"Its a two way bonding process, as well as a means of getting nutrition into an infant, as such it is private and personal."

When you are ten miles from home and said infant is shrieking at the top of its voice for a feed, it is PRECISELY about "getting nutrition into an infant".

What would you suggest?.......All nursing mothers to confine themselves to home, or use the insanitary facilities provided for disposal of bodily wastes?

Why is it that you always profess to have such altruistic and high minded motives for your most noxious contributions?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:15 AM

I don't think he needs to answer that. I could though...

Let's not upset the bigotry fairies though eh?

I am sitting in a cafe at the moment. A lady is feeding her baby. I don't see people sat with their arms folded trying to look offended though.

Most of society is decent you see. People who enjoy being offended or those who use such offence to justify their sad bitter existence don't tend to be in the majority.

On the flight back from Dublin on Thursday I was sat in front of a screaming baby. I wish the mother had breast fed then.....

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:33 PM

Credit where credit is due. Well done, ake. You have gone from

I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss.

to

Don't see what all the stooshie is about, there are silly men and silly women in all sectors of society, all feminist issues are not "silly".

Within the course of this thread.

I do hope that you have genuinely learned that 'silly women' with 'feminist issues' is an attitude that should have died out years ago. I suspect though that you have just learned that you should not say these things in public. I hope that I am wrong.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 04:48 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Musket - PM
151.227.6.112
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:52 AM

Dear moderator . . .

Dear Musket, none of your posts were deleted or edited here. It must have gotten lost in the ether. You should save a copy before hitting send or compose them in another program.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 05:46 PM

I suspect though that you have just learned that you should not say these things in public.

Yes, one hopes so. But one thing's for sure: if he has learned it, he learned it from us, not a Mudcat moderator.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 09:11 PM

Dave, read my post again.
"I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss."

The meaning was obvious when I first posted it, there ARE silly women, just as there ARE silly men.....that does not signify that ALL women are silly.
I don't believe this should be turned into a "feminist" issue, but that does not signify that I think ALL feminist issues are silly.
Eliza's example, of a mass breast feed at a restaurant which asked a nursing mother to go into a private room, is silliness personified.

I have not changed my views in the slightest.

Do you honestly think that all "liberal" issues are sensible?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 09:39 PM

"Eliza's example, of a mass breast feed at a restaurant which asked a nursing mother to go into a private room, is silliness personified."

Almost as bad as a bunch of darkies lining up at a southern lunch counter where they know full well they're not wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 09:45 PM

He hasn't learned it, has he?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 09:54 PM

"Its a two way bonding process, as well as a means of getting nutrition into an infant, as such it is private and personal.
I don't think anyone gets upset over the sight of a bare breast, it's more about the deeper emotions involved for mother and child." ake

You know, ake, your exhortation reminds me that what is "silly" is a MAN telling WOMEN what a woman feels.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 10:11 PM

Hooray, Ebbie.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 10:26 PM

I guess that I have to admit that I have difficulty carrying on an intelligent discussion in the presence of a woman with bare breasts, whether she's breastfeeding or on the beach. Rapparee suggests "a light blanket goes a long way," and I agree. Diapers work just fine, too. I've rarely been in the presence of a breastfeeding woman who is exposed to the point where I feel uncomfortable, so I see this as kind of a non-issue. And whatever the case, I think it's horrible if a woman is made to feel she has to go to the loo to feed her child. That seems downright unsanitary.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 10:41 PM

The notion of a mass breast feed in a restaurant does seem rather to be taking the babies for granted. Babies like to feed when they like to feed, not according to the needs of a demo timetable. It's an individual thing.

When a restaurant needs teaching a lesson about such things, a picket makes more sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 03:57 AM

SRS. I refer to the posts I have checked to see they exist, not the ones that occasionally get lost in the ether. Ditto whole threads I have started.

There are more than just you moderating, don't take it personally.

There's no problem feeling uncomfortable in the company of a feeding mother. You are what you are and are guided by your upbringing and experience.

The problem is when you project that uneasiness where it is neither appreciated nor helpful. In this case, it says more about the state of mind of the offended than the "liberal" actions of the mother. I didn't know that only feminists breast fed. You live and learn. (Or continue to vindicate earlier weighing up of certain people.)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 05:03 AM

Ebbie...now you're being a "silly woman". :0)

I was actually repeating the views of my wife, who breast fed our family.

I cannot believe that you were not aware of that, as I had made it clear earlier.....a bit of attempted point scoring perhaps?

However, I am magnanimous enough to accept an apology ...if offered.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 05:21 AM

It was not obvious to me, ake. And your explanation just sounds like you are trying to justify a long outdated attitude.

I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss.

reads, to me, like you are saying that many (your word, not mine) women who do not like being told to leave or go and feed their child in the toilet are silly to complain. How many is 'many'? Is it a majority? A large minority? What? And there you go again with quotes. Why is it a "feminist" issue and not a feminist issue? It is an act that ONLY women can do so it can only ever be feminist. Without the quotes.


DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 06:03 AM

I have looked up the law in England (as opposed to Scotland) which was enacted as late as 2010, and it forbids discrimination against any woman feeding her child in any place at all. So the law is supportive. But the women I read about were so embarrassed and humiliated that they hadn't the courage to tell the objectors to go and boil their heads, law or no law. I think it's brilliant and quite funny that a huge gang of feeders arrived and swamped the place, breasts a-waving! It's a peaceful and pertinent demonstration. I know that if I ever saw a lady being hassled like that, I'd speak up. I can be extremely fierce at times!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 01:01 PM

Dave , I wish you would concentrate, here is the quote by Ebbie.


"Its a two way bonding process, as well as a means of getting nutrition into an infant, as such it is private and personal.
I don't think anyone gets upset over the sight of a bare breast, it's more about the deeper emotions involved for mother and child." ake

Ebbie was obviously trying to imply that I, as a man, had no insight into the emotions of a nursing mother, but as I stated earlier, the emotional and bonding process was explained to me by my wife, who breast fed all our children.

Ebbie was just trying to be smart, but unfortunately she had obviously not been reading the thread.

BOO....Ebbie! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 02:37 PM

Fiona fed both our daughters in the back of (Anglican) Church, while a service was taking place, and nobody objected.
Mary would have done it for Jesus, and you can't get a much higher precedent than that!

These days we seem to be bombarded with images of women's breasts NOT being used for the purpose they were intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 02:58 PM

Dave , I wish you would concentrate, here is the quote by Ebbie.


You wish I would concentrate and then throw in a quote that we were not discussing? What on earth are you on about? It was YOUR retarded attitude that I was commenting on. Not any quote from anyone else. Stop trying to disguise the fact that you said many breastfeeding women were silly.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 03:06 PM

You should all be grateful they haven't taxed it yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 04:23 PM

Sorry Dave, I'm afraid you go to "Room 101".

You don't seem to be interested in discussion on any thread, you are taking lessons from EBBs   :0)

Just lurk around to you think you can spot some anomaly or weak spot in someone's argument, then jump in to score a (very)few points.
I won't waste my time, you don't even make sense any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 08:22 PM

Surely it's quite simple...If you are offended, look the other way, turn round, stick your head in the newspaper, put your hat over your eyes.It's what mammalian teats are for. It is one of the definitions of being a mammal. There should be a law which makes being offended the offence.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 09:21 PM

Years ago I was at a concert of two very famous singers, whom I won't name. I was seated beside the wife of a casual friend, who was on stage playing back up to them. This lady carried in her arms their recently born child. When the child began to fuss she quickly placed him at her breast. Sitting next to her I could not help but notice, and I will admit that it made me feel uncomfortable. However the baby quieted and I closed my eyes in respect and concentrated on the music. Quickly I realized that if I had any problem it was mine, not hers, and I was thankful to continue hearing a long anticipated performance. If the baby was soothed by both the breast and the music how dare I impose my discomfort on them on them!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 10:16 PM

I remember years ago we were in a post office in Morocco, where we'd hitched down, and my wife was startled to see a mother in full hijab and all, only her eyes showing, but she was breastfeeding without the least embarrassment, and none of the people around her were the least embarrassed either. Let alone offended.

We've got a pretty odd culture in The West in some ways, not always good ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Noreen
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 11:21 PM

Ake, I still don't understand the basis for your statement:

I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss.

Why do you think this? Do you have any evidence? I'd be really interested to see it, if so, because as I said above, I've never come across it: breastfeeding mothers in my experience just want to be left alone to get on with the business of looking after their baby in the best way possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:30 AM

'Feminist issues' have done an enormous amount to bring women's lives up to the standard of men's. My mother and her generation had far more limited expectations for their lives than girls and women of today. I'm afraid sometimes protest groups and movements for change have to be strident and 'in your face' in order to bring injustice to light.
Regarding Muslim women, my husband's large extended family are all Sunni Muslims, and don't veil their faces; legs, and one's hair are covered. But bosoms are nothing at all, and yesterday my husband told me that if one is a passenger on a crowded bus and a lady has a screaming baby in her arms, the entire bus will shout at her, "Madame, give your baby the breast!" in Malinke. Women sit there with their infants, both breasts completely uncovered and nobody bats an eyelid. I think that's natural and rather lovely.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:35 AM

Oh come on, let's not ALL be silly.

The owners of the restaurant are running a business, as such, they have to regard the views of all customers.

Are customers to be allowed to do exactly as they please regardless of the effect on other paying customers.
What if baby required to be changed and was fretful? Say the mother would not use a private room to change a wet nappie, as some sort of feminist protest. What would your views be on the rights and wrongs of that?

I will just say, lest there is any misunderstanding, a woman breastfeeding in my company would not offend me in the least, but a posse of politically inspired child abusers would.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 05:20 AM

Ah, so it gets better. They are no longer silly women with feminist issues, but "politically inspired child abusers" instead. Keep digging, ake. You a doing a grand job of showing your true colours.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 05:25 AM

So, if a restaurant owner had a shopful of racist diners,and a black family walked in, he'd be quite within his rights to tell them to go away so as not to 'offend' his white customers??
And nobody here is talking about smelly nappies. I certainly wouldn't want baby poo wafting around me while I ate. Be reasonable.
Actually, a restaurant owner or any other proprietor would be breaking the law if he/she chased a nursing mum away. Even if the entire restaurant complained about her.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 05:27 AM

Hah! 100!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 05:52 AM

If any establishment that wanted to discourage breast-feeding in public had to display a notice to that effect in their window, then all reasonable people could simply go elsewhere. Within a few weeks that place would either see the error of their ways or go out of business.
Problem solved.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 06:28 AM

Sadly, Kampervan, it is not so. Such an establishment would get the support of the type of Neanderthal that does take offence. It would soon be a beacon for all the right wing idiots who want to take us back to the dark ages. They would, of course, get the clientele they deserve.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 06:39 AM

Also, as we live in a country where equality has statutory status, such a sign would be illegal.

We used to see similar ones. No blacks, no dogs, no Irish.

Remember?

When you run a business it is for all without prejudice. This is why the Christians who tried refusing a gay couple ended up losing their case and being cautioned for a criminal offence.

Tit bombing a restaurant is far better and gives a far more pertinent message than the judicial route though, all the same.

Oh. Pete the squeezer. What are breasts meant for then? I like playing with them myself, try tuning them into Radio 2 etc. A body is for what an owner wishes it to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 06:51 AM

You're both right of course, it wasn't really a serious suggestion, just an expression of frustration over the fact that this is still a topic for discussion.

My daughter frequently breast-fed her son in public and had very few problems and I thought that it had just become the norm. Sad that there are still people objecting to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Noreen
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 09:26 AM

So, Ake, you don't have any evidence.

And anyone who disagrees with your outdated opinion is "silly".

Fine, you're not worth wasting any more intelligent discussion time on.

Bye!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 09:45 AM

What did folks think McDonald's Golden Arches symbolized?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 10:18 AM

McMammaries

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 11:04 AM

Sorry Noreen, but Eliza had already posted evidence about the women who organised and participated in the mass feed, as a political protest.

All silly women, or men, are not child abusers.

What about the point raised regarding nappy changing as a political protest.....agree or disagree?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 11:44 AM

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/breastfeeding_rocks.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 12:18 PM

This really does get better by the minute. Women feeding their children in public to protest about someone trying to prevent them from doing so are child abusers according to ake! I am glad to hear that he thinks that 'All silly women, or men, are not child abusers'. Not sure what it means though as I doubt that any child abusers would be classed as silly. I would call them evil.

I probably would support a mass nappy change as a political protest in the right circumstance. Say to protest at a public site that wilfully will not provide a proper facility for seeing to the mother and child's needs. However, while the two acts are both natural it is blatantly obvious that one is a clean and sanitary operation, causing no distress to anyone, and the other does produce unhygienic by-products that can cause issues. It is not too difficult to see how society draws up it's etiquette. Well, not too difficult for normal people anyway.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 12:59 PM

But after all, the baby has no control over whether he poops in a public place, whereas an adult woman has control over whether she subjects poor unsuspecting bystanders to the sight of an engorged breast and...omigod...possibly... nipple .

Wouldn't you agree, Akeneton ?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Musket
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 01:38 PM

That would be a good night down the dog track. Akenaton in the bar and a gay bloke whips a prosthetic breast out and feeds a baby with it.

I'd not notice it myself you understand. I'd already have left, shuffling my feet on the mat as I exited.

Regarding changing nappies.... Dave is spot on. Society can draw up etiquette without pandering to control freaks or bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:53 PM

I'm really heartened by most people's viewpoint expressed here. I hate to think of a young mum being upset by unkindness and nastiness. It must be very tiring to cope with a small baby even at home, never mind going out and about, and feeding the little mite isn't much to ask. I'm also pleased that men can distinguish between boobs being a turn on (in the West anyway) and breasts being the natural way to nourish a baby. It's also good because, IMO, breast milk is the best thing, and mums should be encouraged to give their babies the very best start in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 08:00 PM

I mentioned early in the thread that I had only seen two women breastfeed entirely openly in many years. I misstated myself, as I was just thinking then of typical public settings. I've seen several more at different nudist resorts, where the moms were simply topless.
(In more than one instance, I've concluded that the young mother had a divine right.)

   I'll get me towel...

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 08:40 PM

Frogprince:   LOLOLOL!
_________________________

"Are customers to be allowed to do exactly as they please regardless of the effect on other paying customers.
What if baby required to be changed and was fretful? Say the mother would not use a private room to change a wet nappie, as some sort of feminist protest. What would your views be on the rights and wrongs of that?"

1. It would never happen, unless the venue refused to provide a room where mum COULD go, and in this case the toilet would be quite appropriate and acceptable for the purpose.

2. After posing this ridiculous scenario, do you STILL have the immortal gall to call women silly?

They couldn't possibly equal your silliness!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:47 AM

Frogprince said, "(In more than one instance, I've concluded that the young mother had a divine right.)"

Allow me to add that her left wasn't bad, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 03:24 PM

There is nothing wrong with a woman breast feeding in public.

There is much wrong with a posse of women using their babies to make a political point. That is abusive, has nothing to do with the baby and everything to do with the sillier side of feminist politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: frogprince
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 04:24 PM

"There is much wrong with a posse of women using their babies to make a political point. That is abusive, has nothing to do with the baby and everything to do with the sillier side of feminist politics."

Abusive???? Tell me how or why in heaven or earth that this action would harm the babies or anyone else. Some twit harassed a mother who was trying to feed her child in a manner to which she was entirely legally entitled. She didn't gather other women to march around with pickets signs and try to turn other people away from the business; a group of women got together and, by doing something that wasn't even offensive to any normal person, probably embarrassed the poor widdle jerk just a little in the process of teaching him something. Say for one moment that the group action could be considered "silly": there are a helluva lot worse ways that people could respond to something totally inappropriate than by doing something totally harmless and slightly "silly" to call attention to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: frogprince
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 04:37 PM

And while I'm ticked off enough to keep rolling a bit:

I've heard of several other "breastfeed-in" gatherings. Those gatherings weren't framed as protests at all. They were arranged simply to promote breastfeeding for the well-being of babies !!! Do you consider that abuse of children by silly feminists too ?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Musket slowly shaking head
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 04:56 PM

Bigotry was never identified by intelligence.

If anybody other than little irrelevant fools harboured pathetic views, we'd all be screwed. However, transparent misogyny can be swept to one side and ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 08:07 AM

"I've heard of several other "breastfeed-in" gatherings. Those gatherings weren't framed as protests at all. They were arranged simply to promote breastfeeding for the well-being of babies !!! Do you consider that abuse of children by silly feminists too ?"

Of course not froggie.....get a grip! That is not making a political point. I agree with the promotion of breast feeding.

I do not agree with the "use" of babies to further a political agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Musket
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 08:17 AM

Speak of the devil....

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: frogprince
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 10:38 AM

So the value of breastfeeding isn't even controversial, but the ability of a mother to do so wherever and whenever her baby is hungry
is a silly feminist political point ?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 01:03 PM

Froggie, My family were breast fed, I believe in the promotion of breast feeding, I think it is a wonderful thing for mother and baby.

I cannot be any more positive about breast feeding than that.

The "controversy", as far as I am concerned, regards mothers who wish to make a political point and use baby as a weapon with which to do so.
I am sure the huge majority of breast feeding mums, would prefer to do so in private and in a quiet environment. A room could surely be made available(not a lavatory), which would be more suitable than the hurly burly of a busy restaurant? I could only assume, that any mother who CHOSE the latter option, had set out to take a political stance.....baby could not give a stuff where he is fed, but the experience would surely be more fulfilling for mother and baby in a quiet private place?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 01:23 PM

I could only assume, that any mother who CHOSE the latter option, had set out to take a political stance

Another load of tosh from the master. That is the whole point. The choice faced by the mother is feed the child in public or let it go hungry. The number of premises with the type of facilities you mention could be counted on one hand. You seriously expect the owner of the premises to furnish some premium space, that could be making them money, to allow for what is likely to be a very rare occurrence? Feeding a child is not a political stance. It is necessary.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 01:37 PM

As I've already said, I've sadly never been a mother, but I should imagine a mum would rather stay at the table or the social event and feed her baby there, than be banished out of sight into a side room. And feeding can take quite a long time; while everyone else is chatting and enjoying their meal, the mum is excluded from the group. The mums I saw in Africa had the baby attached to or near the breast almost all the time, they didn't sit quietly in a mother-baby private moment, they went about their business selling/buying in the market, bent double washing clothes in plastic bins on the ground, bashing away with their huge pestles and mortars, and it was fascinating to see the little ones gamely getting their milk as naturally as anything. There didn't seem to be a 'time' for the feeds, they just fed whenever they wanted to. I don't suppose that's possible here, but a middle path could surely be found, if folk would accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Musket
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 01:38 PM

Perhaps they could have another room for ugly people, in case their presence offends? How about one for poor people in case their poverty offends you?

If you run out of rooms, you could always have a sign saying breast feeding to the left, poor and ugly to the right, similar to me people straight on ahead. No niggers, no dogs, no Irish, no queers.

Sorted.




I wonder if he thinks a single decent Mudcat person isn't disgusted when trying to read his diatribe?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 01:43 PM

Akenaton, sometimes parsing out one's time between eating in that restaurant and then going someplace private to nurse simply isn't an option. Mostly it isn't an option. I patronized restaurants with tables or booths that gave me the freedom to socialize with my husband and or friends and nurse if it was required, a small baby blanket over my shoulder if necessary, but usually just opening a garment intended for nursing out of view under the table's edge. Often you can do it at the same time as some other activity.

Some of us with babies and children about the same age would go certain places to meet. The zoo or the park, for example, where the older children could play and you could sit with the baby and nurse quietly on a bench off to the side of the playground. Or maybe find a corner in the mall courtyard or museum. If someone intentionally intrudes into an area populated with young women with babies, then personal offense that nursing going on is nonsense.

When my children were very small I didn't take them out as often as when they got older. When they were tiny it took them a while to finish so I had a rocker set up with a large tankard of water and a book I was reading. As they grow bigger and stronger and faster at nursing, your schedule can change and if you're out and they're with you, and you know twenty minutes will take care of what they need, why not have a meal and let them nurse at the same time? Just order food that you won't drop on them and can eat with one hand. :)

There was a recent horrible video making the rounds on YouTube/facebook, in which an older man, possibly the grandfather, has a swaddled baby in one arm and a toddler, perhaps three years old, beside him, outside a women's health clinic. He is crouched down where the girl can see her sibling and he is loudly proclaiming to her that each one of these people is going to kill a baby. Overtly suggesting to that young girl that her baby is going to die probably created a terror about people in general for that poor child. That kind of indoctrination and abusing both the baby and the toddler should have landed that old fart in jail, or generated a restraining order to keep him away from all small children. Even the most strident pro-nursing feminists can not be accused of using their babies in any such way. Just like kissing babies at political rallies isn't considered abusive.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: frogprince
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 02:06 PM

"mothers who wish to make a political point and use baby as a weapon with which to do so."

I'm sitting here picturing some woman holding a naked baby while nursing it and pointing it's bare butt at someone with whom she has a political disagreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Musket
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 03:11 PM

Point my greyhound's arse at people and you really are making a statement. Boy can he fart.....

SRS makes good points, but like all good people dealing with those for whom respectability is a foreign country. I fear she may be ultimately disappointed trying to reason.

Nice try all the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 04:52 PM

Thank you for your civility SRS...an interesting post and I cant disagree with much of it.

The rest of you have not addressed the fact that the vast majority of mothers would surely prefer to nurse their babies away from the public gaze?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 06:41 PM

The rest of you have not addressed the fact that the vast majority of mothers would surely prefer to nurse their babies away from the public gaze?

Typical. Cannot find a sensible argument so attack people instead. Where has anyone suggested otherwise?

Babies need feeding every few hours. As they get older the time between feeds does extend but when very young it can be as often as every 2 hours. Even when it is 4 hours through they will still need 4 or 5 feeds during waking hours every day. How often do you think those feeds will be in public? How many people go and eat out for every meal? Even if they go out every lunch time or every dinner time they will be feeding the baby in private 3 or 4 times as often as in public. If they go out twice a week that becomes a minute fraction of the number of times they feed away from 'the public gaze'.

What you are suggesting is that they should, for the sake of a few idiots who will probably take offence at anything, remove themselves completely from any form of social life. Do you believe that women enjoy being clubbed on the head and dragged back to the cave as well?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 07:03 PM

The rest of you have not addressed the fact that the vast majority of mothers would surely prefer to nurse their babies away from the public gaze?

So how many of them have you asked, twat?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: meself
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 08:45 PM

" ... Tess, with a curiously stealthy yet courageous movement, and with a still rising colour, unfastened her frock and began suckling the child.
    "The men who sat nearest considerately turned their faces toward the other end of the field .... "

                                     - Thomas Hardy

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Musket
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 04:44 AM

Well, that's Dorset for you...

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 04:40 PM

Thank you, Musket. Best laugh I've had in a month.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 04:53 PM

I can't speak for the vast majority, no one can, but as a mom who nursed two, I wasn't about to be isolated from the world for all of the time I spent nursing. It can be done in public places in a discrete way.

I agree, great comeback, Musket!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: JennieG
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 05:18 PM

Last week Himself and I were having our morning coffee in a favourite local café, sitting in one of the two front window tables.......a great spot for people watching, one sees some amazing sights in this town you know......when a small group of young folk passed by, smiling and laughing at each other, and firmly fastened to the breast of one young woman was her (at least I suppose it was her own) baby, suckling away.

Wonder if the kid was enjoying his/her milkshake on the run, or if he/she would would have preferred mum to sit down and shake it up less?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:25 PM

It can be done in public places in a discrete way.

AMEN! That's it in a nutshell.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:39 PM

People will still whinge about it no matter how discrete, Greg. There are some who just take offence at anything and enjoy complaining. Sad, but a fact of life.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:59 PM

Actually ['legendary pedant' hat, sorry], a discreet way.

'Discrete' means 'separate', not 'tactful'.

But I wholeheartedly endorse the sentiment...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 08:37 PM

Fer chrissake, Michael, you just beat me to it. There are none more vacuously pompous than those who select deliberately aggrandising words such as "discreet/discrete" who then choose the wrong one. I complement you on your erudite post. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: meself
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 11:32 PM

"complement" ... indeed ....

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 02:11 AM

Prefoundly greatful four you're felicitay-shuns!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:01 AM

I like your style, meself; your quotation was very apt and reflected my views perfectly.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:06 AM

There's irony for you ....

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:09 AM

Well, you learn something new every day! Maybe it should be discrete and discreet?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 05:44 AM

Overheard in Barnsley.

This disc reet ? It's got all o' Kate Rusby' songs on it, tha' knors.

I reckon one of our contributors turned up in drag on BBC Question Time last night. Amazing what you can convince yourself that respectable people think.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 11:32 AM

It was supposed to be discreet. The tyranny of spell-check - doesn't get the syntax, just the spelling.

There are none more vacuously pompous than those who select deliberately aggrandising words . . . that would be aggrandizing, Mr. Shaw.

;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 12:06 PM

Actually, must agree that Steve overstated the matter there. "Discreet" a perfectly normal everyday word, Steve. What supposed to be "aggrandising" about it? What less grandiloquent synonym would you have preferred?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 12:06 PM

Cynthia Ann Parker and her daughter Prairie Flower. After she was "rescued" from the Comanche tribe she lived with for decades. It was different back then. This is the most famous image of her.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 12:16 PM

that would be aggrandizing, Mr. Shaw.

Not preferred that way this end, I fear. Stop taking lessons from Sailor Boy. It's bad enough that Joe's been at it.

As for discreet, etc., the beef is that there is a degree of ignorance involved in selecting a word which has a homophone that one did not realise existed. My advise is to always look stuff up in order to avoid the risk of attracting uncomplementary remarks. Its simple good practise. Yeah.

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 12:36 PM

Keep digging, Steve. You'll find something of substance to discuss one of these day.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 01:21 PM

In English it would be "aggrandising". The colonies, I gather, have become degenerate in this and other respects.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Musket
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 01:29 PM

Top of the Class Bridge.

Keep this up and we shall have them using knives and forks correctly by the end of the term.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 02:45 PM

Keep digging, Steve. You'll find something of substance to discuss one of these day.

You started it by ignorantly correcting something that was already correct, a trait of Sailor Jack's that I cured a while ago. As for what I discuss, you'll find plenty of substance in plenty of my posts. Whether it's plenty of substance that you agree with is beside the point. Take an indigestion pill.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 02:45 PM

selecting a word which has a homophone

Uh-oh. Now you're for it Steve. Who are you calling a homophone?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 02:54 PM

It's a phone that falls in love with another phone of similar ilk. I strongly believe that only phones of different ilk should fall in love, corded with cordless, cordless with mobile, etc. I once spotted a mobile on top of another mobile and they were were - ugh - exchanging intimate data! I immediately insisted that they carried out contact tracing - by bluetooth, of course.

Heterophones unite!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Musket
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 03:19 PM

Heterophones untie!

(Always happen when you have two phones on your bloody desk.)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:43 PM

We're finished discussing breast feeding then?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: JennieG
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:54 PM

Seems so, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 08:19 PM

It would appear the thread has been lost; however, I shall make an attempt to get things back on track.

Gentlemen, the only way we're going to have a running thread about tits (and a few side issues) is to talk about them. Please put your phones away and get with the program.

John Farquharson the Fifth, Esq.

PS Even Playtex couldn't support breastfeeding more than me.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 11:32 PM

Directly linked with nursing is the whole issue of when and what to feed small children. Just as Nestle was a problem with their formula policies (providing formula to third world women who had no clean water to mix it and who would thin it so it would last longer, and their own milk supply would dry up in the meantime) the babyfood companies like Gerber want to sell mothers on the idea that their pablum (a generic usage in this case, for sloppy awful ground up food) is what a baby needs. I had someone call with a survey (the hospitals give out all of the information of new mothers to the baby product companies - you are overwhelmed with calls and coupons and samples) about babyfood. There was a popular ad showing a baby climbing up to a place at the table where there was a steak, potato, and vegetables on a plate, with the question along the lines of "you wouldn't feed this to your baby. . . " My response to the naive caller was that of course I would feed normal table food to my baby. I had a food grinder and I mixed breast milk with the new food so there was a sameness to it and after a while it didn't need mil added. We gradually introduced new normal REAL food to the kids in this way. The only babyfood they ever ate was the boxed oatmeal, and that was only until I started grinding up the Quaker oats instead.

Supplements, formula and babyfood are such a racket. A multi-million dollar racket. As the saying goes, the breast is best. And then, for smart parents, comes real food, without the segue to the mashed sweetened pasteurized junk that comes in expensive little jars. Anthropologists speculate that the gesture of the kiss began with mothers chewing food and then giving small amounts of it to their baby's mouth. I know, for modern cultures it seems gross, but it makes perfect sense if you think about it for very long.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Mar 14 - 06:04 PM

'a multi-million dollar racket' - quite agree, SRS. All these companies are interested in is enormous profits, not the welfare of babies. Regarding developing countries, it's wicked and disastrous to try and replace breastfeeding with formula. I've seen African mums chewing food for their weaned toddlers, and transferring it from their mouth to the child's. Breast is always best, but I feel I must add that if a mum cannot for some reason breastfeed, she mustn't be made to feel guilty. Finally I think it's criminal for formula companies to court new mums with publicity, offers and attention at a time when they're vulnerable and adjusting to baby routine, body changes, tiredness and stress.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Mar 14 - 06:43 PM

All these companies are interested in is enormous profits,

All ALL companies - particularly the mulltinationals - are interested in are enormous profits. That's unregulated capitalism, pure & simple, as was demonstrated 100 years ago in the Gilded Age & has been largely forgotten since.

This is news?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Mar 14 - 08:38 PM

Your remark is irrelevant, Greg F. Did you have something to contribute?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 14 - 09:28 PM

Unfortunately, Greg's contribution is entirely relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Mar 14 - 10:26 PM

Companies have all sorts of ways of operating. I won't paint them all with the same brush, and the introduction of Nestle and Gerber wasn't introducing every corporation in the world. We were talking about nursing babies and I segued into feeding small children.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 05:15 AM

As SRS said earlier, it is a complicated issue, some mother are unable to BF, others are unwilling to do so for cosmetic reasons. There is no doubt that BF is emotionally beneficial for mother and baby, but if mothers are unwilling or unable I'm afraid milk powder is the only resort.

The point I was trying to make about the emotional benefits and family bonding, was largely ignored, but in a society where family life is under sustained attack, it is important to keep these bonds between mother and child intact and that means more than just filling baby's belly.
Time should e made to give meaning and value to the NURTURING of children, an old fashioned word, but a procedure which is rapidly and sadly being lost in modern society.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 10:20 AM

Your remark is irrelevant, Greg F. Did you have something to contribute?

Your objection is nugatory, Sage. Its not my fault if you cannot see the obvious relevance.

Do you have something to contribute?

By the way, you seem to be following me around and making snide comments......

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 10:34 AM

...it's wicked...to try and replace breastfeeding with formula...,

So its a religious rather than an economic issue, then?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:57 AM

Can perfectly well be both, Greg. They are in no way mutually exclusive categories.

~M~

This without prejudice to my views on the topic, which are entirely in approval of ladies who wish to breastfeed in public, an activity which doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:22 PM

~M~, this thread hasn't been about "breast-feeding in public" (which I also have no problem with if done discreetly, like anything else of an essentially private nature done in public) for quite some time.

The breast-milk Nazis are in process of taking it over.....

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 01:03 PM

So where is family life under sustained attack?

By whom, why and when?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 01:39 PM

I avow that I was breast fed, or so I was told by seven independent witnesses, all of whom I also avow saw it happen. I still--almost 70 years later--like breasts.

To any lawyers out there, if my mother had died filthy rich, would I have had a case to grieve loss of focus in life's more fundamental moments and sue her for at least half her fortune?

Your friend,

Stitz R Us

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: frogprince
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 04:19 PM

"~M~, this thread hasn't been about "breast-feeding in public" (which I also have no problem with if done discreetly, like anything else of an essentially private nature done in public) for quite some time."

Steve Shaw, the point at which the thread really went off topic was the point at which you jumped on, and started riding, the misuse of a word which slipped in because of an unnoticed spell-check fluke.

"The breast-milk Nazis are in process of taking it over...."

Thread drift happens. No reasonable person is going to get wound up because some thread drift happens. But what in hell is the sense behind attacking someone who happens to post something back on the original topic...and what kind of mind would justify calling anyone here a "breast-milk Nazi" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 04:46 PM

someone who happens to post something back on the original topic

And that person would be....?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 05:01 PM

Greg, I don't really understand the point you are trying to make, could you please explain?
Is it to promote the use of milk products, rather than encourage women to BF....If so why?...Who are the breast milk "Nazis"?

I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 06:15 PM

Start here, Ake: 28 Mar 14 - 11:32 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 06:58 PM

I've come to this one late, and, getting it back on topic, I wonder just how much of a "problem" this really is, in terms of people complaining or being upset by it?

My wife breastfed all 3 of ours, very often in public, between 27 and 22 years ago, the last one often when the other 2 were with here, so not always possible to be very discreet.

She was never, in all that time, given any snidey glances (that either of us noticed), had any comments made, nor was she ever asked by the staff of a cafe, restaurant or other establishment to take herself off out of sight, or to the toilets.

Her sister did the same from 30-25 years ago with her 4, again without ever having any comments made.

Our daughters don't have kids yet but some of their friends do. Again, most of them feed them in public, or at friends' houses, without any comments at all. I did a quick poll of YD's babied-up friends (about 6 of them) after reading this thread and none of them can recall a single instance so far when they had comments made, or noticed dirty glances.

So just how common is this situation? Sounds to me as if there's a mountain being made out of a molehil, and that the number of cases is probably very small, but because of the relative rarity, tend to get publicised?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 07:02 PM

Amen, Rob. Nicely done.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 07:43 PM

Steve Shaw, the point at which the thread really went off topic was the point at which you jumped on, and started riding, the misuse of a word which slipped in because of an unnoticed spell-check fluke.

"The breast-milk Nazis are in process of taking it over...."

Thread drift happens. No reasonable person is going to get wound up because some thread drift happens. But what in hell is the sense behind attacking someone who happens to post something back on the original topic...and what kind of mind would justify calling anyone here a "breast-milk Nazi" ?

What in the name of Christ is this supposed to be about? Are you in league with the dreaded Sage-stalker or summat? What has all this got to do with me?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 07:56 PM

So just how common is this situation?

Dunno, but we breastfed both ours, back in the late 70s/early 80s, without the merest regard for what anyone might have thought, without the slightest thought about whether we were being "political". As I recall, it was one hundred percent about feeding the nippers in question when they needed feeding. I can scarcely believe the sheer twattery I'm reading here about what a bloody complicated issue it's supposed to be, what an "emotional battlefield" it is or how militant women ostentatiously whip their nipple into a baby's gob in order to make a political point. Bugger off!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 08:19 PM

Yes, exactly. No political stance at all from us, either. Kids were being breastfed. They got fed when they needed feeding, wherever they/ we were at the time. No posing, no politics, no unpleasantness. End of.

Seems to be the same for daughter's friends. They just get on with it and no-one says owt!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 09:12 PM

What in the name of Christ is this supposed to be about? Are you in league with the dreaded Sage-stalker or summat? What has all this got to do with me?

Mr. Shaw, you're the playground bully and I am, at times, the playground monitor. If you don't like getting time out then stop picking on others.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 09:16 AM

Good gracious! Haven't looked at this thread for a while, but whatever has been going on? Talk about losing the thread. This was an innocent topic I put forward in all humility, wondering what others' opinions might be, about a REAL situation reported in the paper (and two or three others I'd noticed over the last few weeks) and some people appear to have veered off into yet another vituperative row. So many threads on Mudcat end up like this - such a pity!