BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns

Subject: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 01:15 PM

Just as you might think we have seen the worst of it Ireland is rattled by the revelation the remains of 796 babies are found in a septic tank in the grounds of a former home for unmarried mothers run by the Bon Secours nuns in Tuam Co Galway between 1925 and 1961.

Irish Times article (one of many).

Some sources speak of malnutrition as a cause of death for many of the children found.

There's obviously a great amount of anger at the revelations. What I can't get my head around however: a priest, spokesman for the church one presumes, speaking out (on RTE news) and saying that times were different then. Well times may have been different, stuffing dead children in a septic tank was never right. It was as wrong fifty years ago as it is today. And don't make it sound as if it was please.

And then there's the Bon secours sister who made 'a small financial contribution' towards a memorial to be erected.
Well, that's that solved then.
Words fail me.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 02:06 PM

Peter, I am completely with you in this. I live across the street from a Catholic Church that periodically fills its lawn with white crosses for "a million murdered unborn". and I cannot help but wonder if those crosses, and the Church's often morbid and obsessive "Right to Life" movement really represents a denial of these horrors, and others yet to be discovered.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 02:27 PM

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/irish-catholics-under-fire-over-mass-grave-201463215031168337.html

There's a bit more.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 02:32 PM

They were doubtless killed by Islamists- as Keith will explain, Christians don't do such things.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 03:01 PM

It's mind-boggling that 796 (or more, according to the story I heard on the radio this morning) babies DIED in this setting. Over a period of 36 years they lost an average of 22 babies or children a year. And no one noticed? Or rebelled?

Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams said the culture that arose out partition was partially responsible for the kind of Irish society that tolerated mother and baby homes.

"We have made the case many, many times and we could be accused of engaging in a doctrinal Republican issue, but there were two conservative, closed states established in this island and the small elites who used to rule us were replaced by a very conservative domestic elite, and the Church hierarchy wasn't about the liberation of souls. It was about power."

Sinn Féin deputy leader Mary Lou McDonald said Tuam was not an isolated incident "no matter how shocking it has been".

She said the mother and baby homes have been excluded from the redress schemes, but that now needs to change.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 03:55 PM

It's an interesting contrast with the attitude towards abortion as maintained it is in the same quarters, isn't? Every life is sacred, yeah right.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 05:45 PM

For many, many of these children, the cause of death on their death certificates was given as "Marasmus". Such a degree of wickedness seems incomprehensible. On top of this, it was reported on the radio today that the state was paying the nuns to perpetrate this atrocity. Beggars belief!

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 06:42 PM

I want to know if and/or how much money was skimmed off to go to the Vatican under duress...THere needs to be a financial accounting because there was state money and they apparently competed for it..perhaps..if the state paid them enough to feed and clothes the babies, and money disappeared, it needs to be traced.

but here is a song...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RomFfK33v3U

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 07:09 PM

Marasmus is a form of severe malnutrition characterized by energy deficiency. A child with marasmus looks emaciated. Body weight is reduced to less than 60% of the normal (expected) body weight for the age. Marasmus occurrence increases prior to age 1, whereas kwashiorkor* occurrence increases after 18 months. It can be distinguished from kwashiorkor in that kwashiorkor is protein deficiency with adequate energy intake whereas marasmus is inadequate energy intake in all forms, including protein.

*Another, similar, disease.

In short, starvation in one form or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 08:16 PM

So you're trying to blame this on the Vatican, Mary? There's no evidence presented so far that they starved these children because of lack of funds.

"Every life is sacred". Yup. Fersure. Indeed.

Dear Lord, protect me from your "Christians".

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 09:50 PM

People always seem to forget about time frames when they encounter information like this. There's no doubt that this was a terrible thing, no matter how those infants died. And I suppose that it's natural when something like this comes to light, people want to be able to blame somebody. But it happened 1927-1961. I'm sure most of the people responsible are dead, so what good does it do to try to find somebody to blame? And to whom does the blame rightly belong? To the Vatican? To the Catholic Church? To the Irish Government? Or to all the people of Ireland who allowed this terrible thing to go on under their noses?

MG's usual conspiracy theory is, as usual, preposterous. Local church organizations are not required to send money to the Vatican, since the Vatican is self-supporting. Parishes and religious orders use the money they earn, to cover their own expenses. Dioceses do assess parishes a percentage for diocesan expenses.

And Stim's tie to the hypocrisy of modern anti-abortionists is a bit anachronistic, I'd say. I'd agree that hypocrisy is alive and well in the so-called "pro-life" movement, but modern pro-lifers are unlikely to be in favor of burying dead babies in a septic tank.

As in any crime, the people to blame are those who committed the crime. And all of us are at least partly complicit to the extent to which we failed to prevent the crime or stop it from continuing. But before we point the finger of blame for such a crime, perhaps we need to examine how much our parents or grandparents and aunts and uncles were involved in these things. Maybe we can deny responsibility because we aren't Catholic or we aren't Irish - but what if our ancestors were Irish and Catholic?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 11:35 PM

Abortion and the death of these children are not comparable, Peter. This isn't a sliding scale. Given access to abortion many of these young women might have taken it up, but I suspect a lot of these young women would have liked to have kept and raised healthy children had the society of the day left them alone to do so. These women sound like they had no say in the matter of the health of their children.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 11:51 PM

I spent the day dealing with the issue of mass incarceration in the U.S., which has the has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world - mostly of racial minorities. Seems like every generation has its own sort of institutionalized societal cruelty. I suppose, though, that it will make us feel better if we spend our energy examining and condemning what happened in County Galway between 1925 and 1961. Then we won't have to worry about what we're doing now that is unjust.

On the other hand, it's not wise for us to yearn for the "good old days." They weren't all that good.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 12:51 AM

There are fewer quicker, more efficient ways to kill a baby than to place it in an institution. Infants died in the Ideal Maternity Home in Nova Scotia, no one knows how many are buried there. Georgia Tann didn't like to spend money on antibiotics, so babies died in her Tennessee Children's home too.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 01:45 AM

Listened to this on the news this morning and the interview with the two men who when they were boys discovered the remains. The explanation given then was that it was a mass grave for famine victims, which is rather strange as one would have thought that some grown up in the community would have asked the apparently obvious question regarding how "famine" victims ended up inside a disused septic tank emptied in the early 1920s when the building ceased to be used as a workhouse.

Also heard the local priest saying how times were different then and that we should not judge.

Local people are collecting for a memorial and were I one of them I would refuse any donation from the Church whose "sisters" saw fit to bury the mortal remains of those children in the manner that they did - I would tell the archdiocese of Roman Catholic Church in Galway thank you but no thank you you have already done enough, we will take it from here, your money cannot buy you absolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 01:56 AM

The reason why this is news today is quite simple.

We are in danger of yet again judging an organisation that sees itself as fit for judging the morals of others.

The brainwashing, especially in Ireland as in Latin America, is such that the Catholic Church is often above scrutiny.

Even on these threads, if you scrutinise any Christian ideal, there are those who run out to defend the indefensible by questioning your integrity. The same characters then have a field day dismissing Islamic communities.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 01:59 AM

Trouble is, Teribus, everyone in Galway was Catholic at the time these things happened. So, who, then, is worthy to contribute to such a memorial?

I'm not sure the Roman Catholic Diocese of Galway would consider such generosity, anyhow. I went to Mass at their cathedral a couple of years ago, and was appalled. I had to go to Mass at a Church of Ireland church an hour later to make up for it.

The point, though, Teribus, is that the people who did this crime are most likely dead, so there's nobody left to try to buy absolution for themselves.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 02:09 AM

Very true Joe.

The "Church" as an organisation's best option would have been to restrict themselves to clearly stating their regret over whatever had happened coupled with a promise to co-operate to their utmost with any subsequent investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 02:11 AM

Joe--There has always been a creepy fixation on dead babies amongst at least some of the "Right to Lifers", and a fondness for pointing the accusing finger at the "Pro-choicers" and screaming, "Murderer!"--and, perhaps not so much now, but not that long ago, many of the priests and nuns who handed out those awful pictures and pointed those baleful fingers also knew where the bodies were buried.

And you do have a a strong point about each generation having it's own societal cruelties, but how can we confront the evils of the present if we are hesitant to look at those of the past?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 02:12 AM

Musket, I think your statement is short on both factual data and logic - not to mention unfair.

Everyone who witnesses injustice has both a moral right and a moral duty to speak out against injustice. There is no "fitness test" to determine whether a person or group is of sufficient moral fitness to speak out against injustice. If such a fitness test existed, we all would fail. So, are you saying that since I'm Catholic, I have no right to question the American addiction to mass incarceration?

The Catholic Church is mostly out of the business of passing judgment on the morals of others, although individuals within the Catholic Church may think otherwise and may claim that right to themselves. Those people are widely known as "hypocrites." I suppose, though I have to admit that I have passed judgment on capital punishment and mass incarceration and racism and corporate greed and militarism, and I find them all to be profoundly immoral. Have I no right to oppose these things, even though I may not be completely right in all my thinking?

"Brainwashing" if such a thing ever existed, is not commonly practiced in the major churches nowadays outside of certain cults.

You say, "if you scrutinise any Christian ideal, there are those who run out to defend the indefensible by questioning your integrity." Well, yes, I suppose there are idiots everywhere. I do wonder, however, what Christian "ideal" you seek to criticize.

All that being said, yes, I do admit that churches have more than their fair share of lunatics.

respectfully,

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 02:28 AM

And I say again, with genuine respect to what you hold dear, that you are reading about others and applying the test to your own interpretation of faith.

Like it or lump it, Papal leaders from the pope down don't pick up microphones and ask people to find their own moral compass. They supply it, lock, stock and barrel.

The "don't judge the past" stance of the priests over there is all well and good if you have evidence that their world has moved on. The very recent abuse of children and the attempts to cover it up suggest the word "trust" needs attention here.

My first impressions of Ireland many years ago was child poverty amidst churches dripping with gold.

Would that be gild or guilt?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 02:31 AM

Unbelievably, this may be breaking news, but problems with Tuam orphanage have been known about by the Government since 1944.
"A 1944 government inspection recorded evidence of malnutrition among some of the 271 children then living in the Tuam orphanage alongside 61 unwed mothers."
It in disingenuous to put this down to the ethos of the time, or to say that we should be concentrating on what is happening today.
This is about the power wielded the Church over the State institutions which could have dealt with it at the time, but didn't.
Any sociaetal cruelty that existed in Ireland (or anywhere the church held sway) came from that power and to infer, as some people have, that ordinary people might have known it was happening, but did nothing, is beneath contempt.
The sooner the Church is removed from all State influence, especially in connection with children, the better.
Some years ago here were reports of a large number of unmarked and unregistered graves at another religious childrens' institution - I don't think it was Tuam.
It seems to have been forgotten in the rest of the avalanche of horrors.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 03:49 AM

It [is] disingenuous to put this down to the ethos of the time, or to say that we should be concentrating on what is happening today.

Why, yes, Jim, it is far more important to dwell on the past misdeeds of dead people, than it would be to question our own conduct in the present.

Yeah, right.

It was a bad thing. The people who did it should be punished, but they are now dead or in retirement homes. To my mind, it appears that you and Musket at very good at the same moralistic judgmentalism you accuse the Catholic Church of.

If things are wrong or if harm is being done, it must be stopped. When things have happened in the past, I think we need to stop and question what good will be done by opening those wounds all over again. I think twenty years is a good number. If it happened more than twenty years ago, there's little you can do to fix it, so maybe it's time to drop it.

I admit that I am still angry at the constant harassment I received from a coworker from 1981-1999. It made my life at work hell a lot of the time, and it gets me angry all over again to think of it. But that was another time, and it's best for me to let it drop.


-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:03 AM

More for Musket, who says I am reading about others and applying the test to your own interpretation of faith.

I suggest that you read a few documents at the Vatican Website, vatican.va, and inform yourself on what the Catholic Church actually teaches. You will find far more condemnation of American militarism and corporate greed, than you will find of gay marriage. And while the Vatican opposes gay marriage, it is quite respectful in what it says about homosexuals. And when asked about homosexuals, the Pope answered, "Who am I to judge?"

And again Musket says: Like it or lump it, Papal leaders from the pope down don't pick up microphones and ask people to find their own moral compass. They supply it, lock, stock and barrel. That's very dramatic language, Musket, but not really true. Church authorities teach, they don't dictate. Two of the most important issues the Catholic Church is emphasizing now, are the rights of migrants and human trafficking. I think you actually might agree with most of what the Catholic Church says about actual moral issues nowadays (and for the last 150 years at least).
Believe it or not, the Catholic Church says very little about sexual conduct.

But you don't really want to know what the Catholic Church actually teaches, because that would destroy all the misconceptions that you are so comfortable with.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:18 AM

Joe - 20 years? I afraid I cannot agree with this, I believe that there should be no statute of limitations on such crimes. The likes of Byron De la Beckwith, Bobby Frank Cherry, and Thomas Edwin Blanton were tried and convicted 30 to 40 years after their crimes were committed, and in my view rightly so. People who commit such atrocities should not be provided with the comfort of knowing that after twenty years they can never be called to account.

Hardly comparable with harassment by a co-worker!

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:41 AM

The last time Rome found kids killed on this scale, they burned the guy responsible at the stake. Gilles de Rais, Nantes 1440. The fact he was the richest man in France, a war hero (one of Joan of Arc's chief lieutenants) and had done so researching early chemistry, to develop improved gunpowder for the new artillery they had just acquired, didn't enter the picture. He's gone down in history as Bluebeard.

A synopsis of th report which exposed this is to be found here. It shows the line published even now is full of lies. St Mary's Mother and Baby Home stood close to St Mary's Cathedral, and its first Chaplain was a grandnephew of a former Bishop. I think, therefore, that the only conclusion we can reach is that the Diocese was fully aware of the situation.
A government inspection of the home in 1944 described the children as "fragile, pot-bellied and emaciated." The cover on the cesspit collapsed in 1975, revealing the charnel house beneath, and it was then that the "famine" fabulation was invented.   

To claim that this was just"of the times" is patent nonsense. Are there cesspits full of dead infants elsewhere? Not aborted, born living but starved to death: how dare Europe criticise Ruanda when something like this has been hidden. somebody knew of it and failed to raise the question. Unhallowed, unshriven, a true whited sepulchre of hypocrisy.

We should not judge? How can we not? Times were NOT different then, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley saw out their days in prison for killing five children. How many nuns were there in that convent? Is this five apiece?

The doctrine of the time was that these children were the fruit of sin and the Church would not therefore baptise them. Because they were not baptised, they could not be buried in consecrated ground. But that is a mile away from starving them to death and burying them on the midden.

The home stood on the Athenry Road. The Fields of Athenry takes on a whole more horrible meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:25 AM

"Initial research suggests that this systemic neglect of non-marital children was not contained to just the home in Tuam and suspicions arise in relation to at least three other large mother-and-baby homes, where mortality rates topped 56%, when the national average for marital children only reached 15%."
Irish examiner June 5th 2014."

Complete article.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:30 AM

Rog, I agree that there are many reasons for certain crimes to be punished 30, 40, or 60 years after the event - but there is a time when punishing a criminal just doesn't really do any good, no matter righteously deserved the punishment may be. There has been a recent rush to prosecute German concentration camp guards before they die off. World War II ended 69 years ago, and the people they want to prosecute are over 90. Does that really do any good? I realize that my 20 years may seem overly generous, but I personally just can't imagine any good being done by prosecuting a 20-year-old crime (I also can't imagine legislation being passed to enact my 20-year statute of limitations, so it's just my opinion).

And once the criminals are dead, I think it's time to leave well enough alone, even though they may have represented an employer (or church) that is still in business.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:51 AM

And here's another opinion I have that won't be popular - I don't really think that a person is capable of making an adult decision until he or she reaches the age of thirty. For so many people the late teens and the twenties are a time of confusion and anger and horrible judgment. Most people seem to settle down by the age of thirty, but I don't think people should be punished 30, 40, or 50 years later for things they did when they were under the age of thirty.

The situation we're talking about ended in 1961, 53 years ago. We don't know what actually happened, and we don't know who did what that was a crime. I think it is important to investigate the matter fully so we can know what happened and prevent it from happening again, but I see no value in chasing down 80-year-old nuns and sending them to the electric chair.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 06:26 AM

So, let's get this straight. The Catholic Church opposes marriage between two loving people yet it's chief executive says "who am I to judge?"

Which Vatican "truth" do you wish to educate me with Joe?

By the way, talking of sending nuns to the electric chair is fine till you notice you called me dramatic for suggesting the pope uses a microphone.

The more I hear your excuses, the more I see the danger of perpetuating organised religion. If it can blinker an educated reasoning person such as yourself, what is the "teaching" doing to the millions of ill educated poor that it feeds on for its gold?

20 years as a statute of limitation? Tell that to the nazis in their '90s being brought to book still. The value is reminding would be tyrants that they will not be allowed to get away with crimes against humanity. If the international court in The Hague has a purpose, dissuading this sort of behaviour is it.

Do they have cesspits in purgatory?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 06:30 AM

Joe: re your comment at 2.12 "Brainwashing, if such a thing ever existed, is not commonly practised in the major churches nowadays outside of certain cults"

The week before last I attended a wedding held in a catholic establishment. Throughout the wedding the Dominican brother who conducted the service made constant and repetitive references to God and his (note: HIS) role in the marriage of the couple and in the lives of the assembled company.

If that is not brainwashing I do not know what is. If something is repeated often enough people will start to absorb what is being said without giving it due consideration.

I should add the Dominican brother is a passing acquaintance and I occasionally have a pint with him and I should also say that as a child I was educated in catholic infant, junior and Grammar schools.

I rejected the church at an early age because the priest who used the visit our house (and drink my Dad's whisky) made frequent unsavoury comments about the "black sheep", my father, who like most young boys I hero worshipped.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 07:38 AM

Any serious institutional crime, and especially one that is within the living memory of those who may have suffered from it, is worthy of pursuing in court.

I believe that atonement for great acts of evil, is a cathartic - psychological and even spiritual - necessity for both the individual victims and the collective victims (ie: society as a whole) of those corrupt and powerful organisations that perpetrated them with impunity.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 07:56 AM

Sorry Joe, but

1. There is no statute of limitations on murder, nor should there be.

2. RE: once the criminals are dead, I think it's time to leave well enough alone: You feel they should be given a pass because they're old? Age is a defense against murder? I don't think so.

3. RE: prosecution of Nazis who perpetrated war crimes (Or Nuns who committed murder) "does no good", I would call your attention to George Santayana and that his famous aphorism "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" is inscribed on a plaque at the Auschwitz concentration camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 08:07 AM

"It was a bad thing. The people who did it should be punished, but they are now dead or in retirement homes."
Joe
You still don't get it, do you?
This has never been about "punishing dead people" nor should it be; it is about ascertaining that it should never happen again and making sure that the organisation that allowed it to happen should be removed from the positions it still hold which would allow such things to occur.
As far as the actual perpetrator, those who were a part of these obscenities should be exposed as the monsters they were, dead or alive as an example of extreme influence gone wrong.
Last year, two Magdalene nuns spoke of the Laundries – they referred to their job as "a calling from God", their victims as "sinners" and "the sweepings of the street" and they swept aside any suggestion that they had done wrong otr that they should, in any way, recompense those who suffered in their 'care'.
Their extremely wealthy order has so far refused point-blank to contribute to any payment to the ex-slaves they beat and abused for so long.
A bit rich for those to whom the confessional was an essential step on the 'pathway to Heaven'
The documentary, 'Mea Maxima Culpa' took the child abuse scandals far beyond 'a few bad apples', and showed conclusively how the Church hierarchy facilitated the rape of children over generations, and how the Vatican continues to deny possible closure (it can never be closed for many of those victims) by refusing access to contemporary documents.
Despite all the revelations, the Church is still demanding, (and holding on to), the right to educate the nation's children and it is still exercising malign influence over our laws and our lives.
Last year, politicians who chose to vote for new pregnancy termination laws which have brought Ireland reluctantly, somewhere into the middle of the twentieth century (still a way to go yet) were threatened with excommunication.
Girls are still leaving Ireland in their thousands to undergo medical procedures they can obtain legally on the other side of the Irish Sea.
The suggestion that the church rarely interfere in sexual affairs is a sick joke.
My generation, and generations before me, were brought up to regard sex as a necessary evil and to actually enjoy it is a sin ( I never received a religious education, but the influence of those around me who did was virtually impossible to avoid).
Regarding homosexuality, the 'modern' Church has yet to come to terms with the real world.
The Church, as an institution has lost any rights to influence our lives, especially the lives of or children, other than to offer spiritual advice – some of its members have lost any rights to describe themselves as human beings
The Church has given the phrase "Suffer the little children"
Jim Carroll
Breaking news has just revealed that another order of nuns has agreed to cooperate in enquiries on other sites of unmarked graves in three different locations in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 08:10 AM

Concerning aged murderers (be they Nuns or plumbers) and the electric chair. I think we all know that there is no such thing in the UK and Ireland. Murderers don't go to the electric chair over here, they go to jail.

Also, I don't think crimes like this should be 'about the criminals' but rather about the victims, in this case the victims were the babies that were starved to death, the incarcerated mothers whose babies were starved to death, and Irish society which was unwittingly being duped into paying for and supporting such crimes.

In cases like this, it's not simply a case of justice being done (locking up aged killers), but justice being *seen* to be done. We need to hear the stories of those who were victims of corrupt institutions like this, and the perpetrators (where possible) need to give an account of their actions. Punishment has a symbolic function as much as a practical one.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Stu
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 08:38 AM

"but I don't think people should be punished 30, 40, or 50 years later for things they did when they were under the age of thirty."

Seriously? You might want to consider the implications of that statement would have in the real world. If you need it pointing out, then I don't know what to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 08:52 AM

'It was a bad thing. The people who did it should be punished, but they are now dead or in retirement homes. To my mind, it appears that you and Musket at very good at the same moralistic judgmentalism you accuse the Catholic Church of'


Speaking for myself here I think I am most outraged by the fact the first priest to be seen commenting on it was sweeping the whole thing under the carpet. Nothing to see here, old stuff, move on please. It wasn't considered wrong in those days. Letting babies die and stick them quietly in a septic tank? Not considered wrong? Really?

The church should have at least the decency to acknowledge what has happened and maybe give an apology to the surviving parent of these children. Along with an assurance nothing like it will happen again.
That would be the decent thing. Acknowledge the sins and repent what has happened. But there's nothing of the sort. The Bon Secours order promised 'a small financial contribution' towards the erection of a memorial. And that's it. And there lies the outrage.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 09:44 AM

Speaking for myself,...

Well, everybody on this thread after me has said it all.

I read an in depth article in The Guardian today about it. I fully agree with the author in that the only reason this isn't wall to wall top news coverage around the world is that we see the level we expect from the Irish Catholic Church. The theocracy they ran over the Irish people questions the right of such organisations to even exist in a civilised world.

The more you think of the "sin" declared on young women, the more you see the sin of the churches. I am used to dramatisations accentuating and sensationalising issues, but on this subject, Philomena and Quirke appear to be watering it down rather than making it look worse.

A church entrusted with children throwing them in a cesspit.

Just keep repeating it to yourself and then ask yourself why our governments allow these superstitious crime rings to run schools and be left alone with vulnerable people.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 09:55 AM

"An assurance that nothing like ir will happen again"?
The whole thrust of the priestly intervention is exactly to ensure that what has happened in the past is happening again, sweeping it under the carpet. The only thing we know is that it will happen again. My grandmother was sexually abiused by a Roman priest a hundred years ago, in Belgium. The society scandal which resulted was covered up with the promise Rome would not inflict itself on the family again. That counted as nothing, however, when a Mother Superior General saw fit to attempt to abuse my daughter for her own profit.

The one thing we know is that the only reason it's being covered up is not simply because it happened, but that somewhere it or something like it is still happening. If it were not, Rome could come clean with a Truth and Reconciliation clean-up to put the past behind it. One has to have a certain sympathy, as the problem may be so big it is unmanageable. The Pope has tutted, but will be off the scene before anything happens at this rate.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 10:05 AM

I do not know how many people posting here have actually read the article in The Irish Times. I suggest that you do so. A lot of assumptions are being made, yet there has been no investigation at this point. I do hope that a propmt and thorough investigation will be made. Then we can respond to facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 10:51 AM

@HiLo
You can find the link to the original FB thread the Irish Times worked from in the synopsis link on my 05 Jun 14 - 04:41 AM posting above. This is the main source.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 10:56 AM

As the situation stands, 796 children stuffed in a septic tank without any acknowledgement, a proper burial or even an administration to show they ever existed, the sheer inhumanity of it, isn't that quite enough for starters? And I'll say it again, that all coming from the crowd telling us at every junction that every life is precious?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 11:07 AM

I have already referred to The Guardian coverage and The BBC News website is giving an unsensational account, including to be fair, a promise by a leader in the church to get to the bottom of this. The snag is, he has already put his cards on the table by saying they have no record of the children....

Until the irish authorities are no longer impressed by dog collars, we may never get to the bottom of it as reverence to such people and their organisation is far too deeply ingrained. After some priests had been seen to be fucking children, the largest protest outside the courts was from church run groups accusing the authorities of victimising priests. Even questioning whether priests should be subjected to law...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 11:27 AM

I was gobsmacked by the revelation that these children were denied baptism. Their subsequent treatment seems to have been a natural consequence of this initial exclusion - the priests had decided they were demons or animals.

Catholic missionaries the world over were quite prepared to baptize killers and cannibals. Where did the Irish church get the idea that illegitimate children could not be permitted to become Christians?

is this still official Irish Catholic policy?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 11:31 AM

@Peter Laban
The starting point of the trail which came to this conclusion appears to be the public documentation of the deaths - Mrs Corless was researching the Home as an Institution, and started talking to the residents of the Estate built on the site. From that she learned of an "angels" graveyard, supposedly of babies dead before baptism, and went to the Galway Registrars, where she learned of nearly 800 deaths, far more than could regularly occupy the space as normal burials. That then lead to the discovery of the 1970s exposure.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 11:44 AM

Joe - I think we shall simply have to accept that, on this we are bound to remain miles apart.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 11:50 AM

Jack, there are several angles on this as I understand it.

The Corless investigation received the 796 deaths from the Galway registrar, the church (and I use this term here as a blunt catch all nomer)by their own admission doesn't have any record of these deaths. The children were in the care of the institution. Out of the number in the official registry only one burial was registered, a little boy who was buried in a family plot.

The term 'babies' is maybe a bit misleading, I realise now children aged between a few weeks up to nine years were among the 796.

There was also the instance of two men who were interviewed on RTE news who when children themselves discovered a mass grave in the grounds, piles of bodies put in a watertank. I didn't see that item in great detail so I won't comment although I had the impression that discovery was not followed up at the time.

Subject: ADD: Irish Babies (Mary Garvey)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 12:45 PM

I have no desire to execute elderly nuns who were caught up in the system themselves...I am struggling to understand how the Vatican is self supporting...I know they sell postage stamps and long long ago, as much as four months probably, used to launder Mafia money...and rent out their massive real estate holdings...but I do believe cash makes its way there..or did...I want historians to tell me where the wealth came from and how much was appropriated wrongly and how much was extracted by people to poor to feed starving children. And there are certainly people old enough to have had children in 1940 who are living and certainly the children are living and we have begun to hear from survivors..in fact, I believe one was called Peter Monaghan..I found this after I got this song..

Anyway, here is a song..tune is wearing of the green

Irish babies..tune Wearing of the Green

My name is Maureen Monahan my age is 93
I had a little baby that they never brought to me
It might have been a daughter it might have been a son
I never got to see it so it so it could be either one

If a boy I named you Paddy if a girl I named you Claire
And yes you had a father and his name was Jack O'Hare
As for you old Mother Ireland how could you treat us so
When we were young and pregnant and had nowhere else to go

800 little babies and children eight or nine
All starving in their little cots and one of them was mine
And when you drew your final breath in that workhouse cold and dank
You were wrapped up in a shroud and thrown into a septic tank

So farewell little Paddy and farewell little Claire
If I'd have known what might have happened I'd have never had you there
I'd have sold myself for pennies to sailors on the street
But by God and all that's holy you'd have had enough to eat.

Subject: BS: irelands shame
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 12:52 PM

Mass Grave of 800 Babies is Too Uncomfortable for Official Ireland
Ireland's public outrage unmatched by media and state response

796 tiny bodies, squashed into a septic tank. Bones upon bones; the bones of 1960s babies mingling with the bones of 1950s, 40s, 30s, 20s babies in untold layers of misery, layers of starvation, layers of neglect.

The horror of the discovery, or rather re-discovery, of the mass grave at the old site of the Bon Secours mother and baby home in Tuam, Co. Galway last week caused no more than a flinch for some, an involuntary turning away.

On the day that the tireless work of local historian Catherine Corless and her colleagues became known to the wider world, RTE News devoted their time to the story of Kim Kardashian and Kanye West's honeymoon in Cork. In an age of instant information and desperate press oneupmanship, it is impossible that the revelations in Tuam escaped their notice. It is also unlikely that a conspiracy was afoot at the state broadcaster to keep this unfortunate story quiet.

The most likely reason for RTE's inexplicable blindness, along with that of many other major news outlets, is much more prosaic and much more terrifying.

It was ignored because it wasn't a story. It wasn't news. It no longer surprises us that these things have happened.

Almost 800 babies shoved into a septic tank, uncared for, unmarked, unremembered? Of course they were. What else would you expect from the organisation that presided over the rape of thousands of children, the forced adoption of thousands more, untold years of slave labour, and the incarceration, brutalisation and shaming of women?

The story, which is gaining traction days later as news outlets recognise their terrible oversight, has garnered little more than a shrug from the established press, barely a mumble from the State, and a defensive, sidestepping statement from representatives of the Catholic church.

What can explain this reluctance to report, to engage, to imagine?

Certainly, no-one wants to imagine it.

We would prefer not to think about those women, removed from their homes and families, giving birth under the gaze of disapproving nuns, watching their babies starve, or die from a preventable disease, or disappear one day into a car to be sold to a new family. We would prefer not to think of disabled babies slowly dying in lonely, shabby rooms. We would prefer not to think about exactly how those babies' bodies ended up in the septic tank. We would prefer not to think of the symbolism of that tank, of what those babies meant to the people who were meant to care for their tiny souls. We would prefer not to, but perhaps we should.

That said, Irish people now outstrip their official mouthpieces. Many of us don't share this reluctance. Given the opportunity, we react. In floods of outrage on social media, in the comments section of online news, in conversations on the street, in letters to the paper, people freely speak of things that we would prefer not to think about, but that it would be worse to forget.

With anger and disgust, people condemn the actions of a church that claimed to love and a state that claimed to care. The story goes global, but at home, fringe media and even satirical news sites provide coverage more hard-hitting than anything in the Irish Times. The attitude of ordinary people on this island toward the Catholic church has changed swiftly in the wake of scandal after scandal, while traditional media and government spokespeople still struggle against decades of ingrained deference and outdated modes of public engagement.

This week, Pope Francis, seeming concerned about the world's chronic underpopulation, lamented the fact that some married couples choose not to have children. He accused these couples of selfishly preferring their holidays and dogs to the propagation of loyal young Catholics.

These future children, we can be assured, would be cherished. The children of marriage. The children of devout followers. Not the children of unwed mothers, the children of other religions and none, the unbaptised, the unwanted. Times have changed since these children were left to die of neglect and disposed of in septic tanks, but they are still not the right kind of children for the church to cherish.

The church that still reaches deeply into Irish lives and psyches is not the church of Jesus Christ, a man who by all accounts simply wanted people to care for one another without reservation or prejudice. It is an organisation that thrives on power, that runs on secrecy, that entangles itself in the lives and deaths of its followers.

However, revelations about babies in septic tanks, no matter how slowly they filter into the mainstream, are unforgettable once lodged in the public imagination. Ireland has changed, and continues to change, while the press and government struggle to keep up with the outrage of the people.

Some members of government suggest a memorial might be in order. The Archbishop of Dublin thinks that the matter is possibly worthy of a social history project. What neither of them wants is an excavation.

Why? Because an excavation means bones. Bones that will be brought to light, touched, examined, photographed. Bones that will reach the front pages of papers and the corners of the internet. Thousands of tiny, fragile bones, permanently engraved in the minds of Irish people everywhere.

We couldn't be having that.
Written by

    [Gwen Boyle]
    Gwen Boyle

    Freelance writer and editor from Cork, Ireland.

Your audience awaits. Tell a story on Medium today.

Subject: RE: BS: irelands shame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 01:05 PM

Well put. The alliance between the roman catholic church and the Irish state has been a terrible, terrible source of oppression.

Subject: RE: BS: irelands shame
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 01:17 PM

This is thread number two on the same topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 02:56 PM

If it takes thread one million, so be it.

Any reason for saying what you just did guest# ?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 03:02 PM

Note to MG: When Italy became a nation in the 1870s, the whole central part of the "boot" was absorbed into that new nation. That part of Italy had been the Papal States. In the Lateran Concordat of 1929, Italy compensated the Vatican for the loss of the Papal States. That money became the endowment that has supported the Vatican to this day - and yes, there has been corruption in the management of that money at times, but the money is still there. So, the Vatican is in the enviable position of being healthily endowed and largely self-supporting.
The Vatican does have worldwide collections like the Peter's Pence collection (now used for philanthropy, but once used to support the Vatican), but most of those are for international relief.

---

This mass grave in Ireland is a challenging situation to respond to. I don't imagine I'll prevail in this discussion, since I've lost out in so many others. And for that matter, I really don't know what is the appropriate response. All I seek to do is to examine the response to such atrocities and try to learn what is appropriate and effective.

It seems to me, that every nation has its "original sin," something that the nation as a whole must take responsibility for - for all time. America has two such "original sins" - racism, and the European conquest of Native American land. Everyone in America who is white, has reaped some sort of undeserved reward from these two sins, and all with black or Native American blood are still suffering the cost of these sins. Now, I suppose if my great grandfather hadn't left Germany in the 1870s to become a furrier in Detroit, the Offer branch of my family would have died in a concentration camp in Europe. And the McQuade branch of my family might have died of starvation in Ireland in the 1840s. Still the next generation prospered, as did those after that.

Now, despite the fact that my great-grandparents were immigrants and refugees themselves, my grandparents were horribly racist - as were all in their generation. I remember hearing them say things in the 1960s that were embarrassingly racist. Oh, and the things they said about homosexuals were even worse.

And now I live in a nice place in California, which once was part of Mexico - but Mexican people who come to work here are considered "illegal" and are deported by the hundreds of thousands. I suppose I should feel horrible that I live in this nice place - but instead of condemning myself, I save my condemnation for people who live in really opulent places.

I'm working on the issue of mass incarceration in the United States, and one of the first things I learned was the amazing percentage of nonwhites in U.S. prisons. Isn't that a direct effect of the racism of my grandparents?

I hear an outcry from many about the priest who said on RTE saying that times were different then. He didn't deny what happened, and he didn't try to downplay the significance of what happened (although we don't really know the details of what happened yet). All he said that that times were different then. And that's true. The times of our grandparents were cruel times, in many, many ways. In Ireland, the power of oppression was embodied in the Church. In England, it was the ruling classes. In Germany, it was the nobles and then the industrialists and then the Nazi Party. In the United States, it was the slave owners. But wherever the center of power was, the truth of the matter is that the times of our grandparents were very cruel times.

So, now we're half a century later, and we're still trying to assess the blame and exact a price from whomever we can blame. In Ireland and most of Europe, everybody's after the Church - but the Church is no longer what it was, and yet so many of you act like the Inquisition were still going on. The Church is a very good scapegoat, because it's still there despite the fact that so many people no longer belong to it. And so all those former members can feel righteous and clean, and can deny all responsibility to the misdeeds of their ancestors.

But you know, if you have any sort of comfortable lifestyle, you most probably have benefitted from the suffering of all those people who suffered during the times of your grandparents. You're eating food that should have been eaten by the children and grandchildren of those 796 babies that didn't live, and you're living in houses where they should have lived.

Somebody above said that this mass grave must be investigated so that such a thing will never happen again. That is absolutely true. However, whenever something like this happens, there is a natural human urge to find somebody to blame, somebody other than ourselves. If we don't learn in our investigations that we are all responsible for the sins of our ancestors, then we have not learned the lesson that we need to learn from all this. Yes, the times of our grandparents were cruel times - but there is infinite cruelty and injustice in our current society.

We can waste our energy trying to assess blame for the past cruelty of our society, or we can open our eyes and see the cruelty that exists in our current time and spend our lives working to fix it.

I prefer the latter approach.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 03:24 PM

We can waste our energy trying to assess blame for the past cruelty of our society

Sorry again, Joe - this wasn't the fault of "society" - it was the fault of those particular individuals who, with premeditation, starved the children to death.

And they, be they still alive, should be brought to book.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 03:32 PM

Musket, the following three posts were on a newly started thread by GSS, and I thought he'd missed the thread we are on now.

GUEST,#         05 Jun 14 - 01:17 PM
Richard Bridge         05 Jun 14 - 01:05 PM
Good Soldier Schweik         05 Jun 14 - 12:52 PM



I agree the issue requires exposure. In fact I posted a link to the story on another thread yesterday. I think it's important. However, the general rule is one thread to one subject or else things get confused. That's why I said what I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 03:35 PM

The following is the thread I posted to on June 5, making it two days back, not one as I stated in the last post.

"Subject: RE: BS: The right not to be offended
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 11:08 PM

Indeed. The right not to be offended."

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 03:42 PM

The two threads were combined.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:00 PM

Mmmm.. Interesting

Joe. Stop saying society. Society contains decent people as well as organised religions seeking to hold control over people.

Society didn't do this heinous crime against humanity. People did. After Nuremberg, the National Socialist Party (Nazi) was made an illegal organisation. Why ? Because you can't just blame the historic perpetrators, you question the philosophy that allows such crime to be normalised.

Sorry but your disassociation with the organisation that did this whilst remaining supportive of it takes a level of reconciling I am not capable of understanding.

Nor am I minded to be educated.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:20 PM

Greg F says: Sorry again, Joe - this wasn't the fault of "society" - it was the fault of those particular individuals who, with premeditation, starved the children to death

Yes, Greg, that's true - but most of those people who committed those crimes fifty years ago are dead. We really don't know yet what those crimes may have been, or who committed them. But still, it was Irish society that established and condoned such institutions.

And for that, all of Ireland is to blame - not only those who are currently Catholic.

Musket, you make the mistake of expecting uniformity from the billion-member Catholic Church. Of course, all those bad elements that you despise, do exist in the Catholic Church. Of course, people acting with the authority of the Catholic Church committed crimes. But organizations of the Catholic Church have also operated excellent schools and hospitals and social programs where problems were few and services were of high quality. Rather than condemning the entire Catholic Church or insisting the Catholics no longer be allowed to educate their children, you have to do the work to sort out what's good and what's bad. Blanket accusations do not apply.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:43 PM

And yes, yes, yes it's true that individuals committed these crimes. I suppose the threat of prosecution at any age does serve as some sort of deterrent. But from another point of view, it just doesn't do much good to put an eighty-year-old woman in prison. What is constructive and necessary, is to examine what happened within a societal context, and then fix whatever it is in society that causes such things to happen.

Yes, individuals committed the crimes - but these are crimes that happened on a widespread scale within an institutional context that was established by both Church and State. And it wasn't the English who did this - it was the newly independent Irish nation. And it wasn't Rome that did this - all the institutions were thoroughly Irish. That fact that many of those Irish are no longer Catholic, does not excuse them.

Weren't you people alive when society used to shun unwed mothers? It wasn't a religious thing - it was something that most people did, and it was cruel. And unwed mothers were quietly sent away to some institution, often condemned to a life of poverty and not to be heard from again in polite company. Some of those unwed mothers were actually treated well and given a good education in their institutions - but most of society continued to shun them.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:09 PM

There are three sets of the guilty - the rabid nuns who personally committed the vile acts, the rabid religions that gave birth to the satanic beliefs of the nuns, and the state that existed in symbiosis with the rabid religions.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Penny S.
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:12 PM

There were Magdalene Laundries east of the Irish Sea as well. And the Protestant Barnado's homes sending children overseas, lying to their parents, lying to the children, to God knows what lives. And rehoming babies was going on in Spain and South America as well, the RCC again, and lies being told to mothers about their babies being born dead. It's not just the Irish.
It's when those in power think of those "beneath" them as somehow not quite as human as they are, and to be played with like toys.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:21 PM

I dunno - you turn the water into wine, give the sermon on the mount, cure the lame....

then someone finds some dead babies in your back garden, and then they all keep going on as though its your fault.

I mean....just cool it...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:26 PM

To show you how thumbs weigh on the semantic balance, the site is termed a graveyard - yet it's unconsecrated. The Archbishop accepts they'll have to rebury them in consecrated ground...not that it makes much difference to them or their mothers, I suspect. That ground is consecrated by their suffering, by the testimony they bear against their murderers, holy mothers or not.

And it's not just Ireland, Joe, I had to intervene to protect my daughter in Belgium. For that I was denounced as a heretic Protestant from the pulpit, as an irresponsible single father - my wife had died of cancer. It may be worse in Ireland, but the sense of immunity in the priesthood is everywhere, in Scotland we had a prime case, in the US, in France. This is endemic and must stop. As it isn't being stopped there can only be one solution, and that is to call a spade a spade and end this so-called Church. My reason for it is that in almost any organisation, a new boss has a year to clean and shape it to his mould. It's now well over a year since Pope Francis took over and not a blind thing has changed. This is a typical example. If he had a proper grip there's no way the priest who made those sweep-it-under-the-carpet-again would or could have done it.

It's not hatred of the Church or its fellows, but utter and complete disbelief that it's capable of changing. And if it cannot change itself, then it has become a dead weight in the faith however you conceive it. How long will anyone believe the statements of intent when the reality is something different?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Penny S.
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:26 PM

I remember, while watching films about the laundries, wondering how much choice the nuns had had about their lives, and if the bitterness was because they were victims, too. Nowadays, one can be sure about the real choice that nuns have made, but then? Not an excuse, but an undertanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:29 PM

The timeline you use coincides with the hold religion had on society.

To say that at one time society put up with things it doesn't do now fits perfectly with when people began dismissing religion in large numbers.

Yes, you can't look at the Catholics next door and ask them why they support throwing dead babies in cesspits. No more than you can look at the Muslim next door but one and ask him to apologise for marketplace bombs. Of course you can't.

But you can ask a hierarchical organisation how their constitution helps prevent such things from happening now. You can ask them how they assure themselves and others it is impossible for them to knowingly keep quiet when their staff carry out crimes against humanity in the name of their employer.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 06:05 PM

is to examine what happened within a societal context,

Well, Joe - now for a musical interlude:

Frank and Jesse James were products of their environment. They were sent out into the woods by their parents to forage for berries, truffles, rutabagas, and roots of all sorts. Put yourself in their place...you'da been mean too!
Kinston Trio Intro to "Jesse James"

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 06:18 PM

To say that at one time society put up with things it doesn't do now fits perfectly with when people began dismissing religion in large numbers.

And the change also marks the time when religion became a voluntary thing, instead of something that was required by societal pressure. I think that to a large degree, a religion embodies the standards of its members, rather than the members marching to the tune played by the religious group. Throughout history, religion has served to institutionalize and reinforce societal taboos - but the taboos flowed from society, and did not appear by church decree. Now, of course there is some back-and-forth on this, but I think it's clear that religious morality mirrors societal norms. Now that religion is voluntary, there is a vast change. Richard Bridge's rabid nuns and rabid religions and satanic beliefs no longer exist. Well, the Satanists exist, but they're a much nicer earth-based religion now.

Now, Musket, you couldn't possibly understand the reality of this because your preconceptions will not allow you to actually read some Catholic Church proclamations on moral issues, to see how such things actually work. They are now published in the form of "attempts to persuade," and that's been the general format since mean old Pius IX died in 1878.

And I repeat again that the last of these mass-grave deaths happened in 1961, 53 years ago. That's not to dismiss the seriousness of the offense - it's to remind you of the reality that this isn't happening now, and it hasn't happened in a long, long time. The Catholic Church of today, isn't anything like it was 53 years ago - despite lingering stodginess in a number of areas. I visited a number of Sisters of Mercy convents when I was in Ireland a couple of years ago. The scary nuns are all good, and all you see in Irish convents now are nice old ladies who are obsessed with making tea - and it's darn good tea, too.

I suppose that one very detrimental aspect of the Church, was its cosiness with government in much of Western Europe, and most particularly in Ireland. In the U.S., government inspectors monitor religious schools and hospitals and institutions - and since Church and State aren't in bed together, one institution serves as a check on the other. For the most part, Church and State seem to be moving apart in Europe, and I think that's healthy.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 06:21 PM

No, Mither. You have to ask the hierarchies why they imposed those things then. Why they imposed vows of obedience. Why they condemned sexuality.   They were the fount of evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 06:34 PM

Yes, Richard - but for the most part it wasn't nearly as dramatic as you describe it. You've been watching too many old nun movies...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 07:41 PM

Who's Mither?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 07:53 PM

About satanic rituals etc..a priest is now supposedly on his deathbed and was jailed for the murder of a nun, and it was said to involve satanism I believe. It was on bishop accountability abuse tracker. I advise daily reading of it if you can because it will disabuse anyone of the notion that it is all in the past, few bad apples...all from 20 years ago...no..not really.

And I see now more meanness and cruelty in the church than I did 53 years ago..maybe I just wasn't aware..but I certainly would have been 40 years ago...once cruelty gets institutionalized, and it has been, it is very hard to eradicate. And I don't believe you can correct it with love love love either. You have to stand up to it and say we are watching you and shining a light on you and ridiculing you whenever we can but we will not stand for your behavior..and they will not like this one bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 11:21 PM

MG has an infinite ability to draw vast conclusions from isolated instances. She sees people giving Hitler salutes when they follow the ancient tradition of raising a hand in blessing. What is the increased "meanness and cruelty" you've observed, MG?
bishopaccountability.org does a good job of reporting the facts and the scope of the child molestation scandal in the U.S. Catholic Church. The percentage of offenders is somewhere between four and ten percent of all priests. There seems to be a great reduction in offenses since controls were instituted in the U.S. in 2002, but my own diocese had two recent arrests of priests.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 11:50 PM

It is certainly not an unbroken tradition in the catholic church..i never saw it until last ten lr so years bur i am glad to say i have helped to replace it with nonoffensive gestures. Anyway good article by susan lohan..google irish baby scandal. She and others say nuns were paid per mother and child what a working man perhaps supporting ten children made. Lus they had gardens and livdstock. Must be confirmed. An analysis of where the money went is urgent. The nuns prob lived very simply. Was it siphoned off? Where did it go. Children died and there might have been sufficient money coming in to make this criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 01:47 AM

Joe: "Throughout history, religion has served to institutionalize and reinforce societal taboos - but the taboos flowed from society, and did not appear by church decree"
,..,
This a greatly oversimplified view, if I may so so, Joe. Sometimes it has been one way around, sometimes the other. "Church v State" has always been a profound issue, frequently coming to a head as in the case of Luther inducing the Reformation, & Henry VIII's Dissolution of the Monasteries soon after [one of those zeitgeist things rather than direct consequence, tho obviously not entirely so]. My impression is that in general throughout history, from OT times onward in the West & likewise in other parts of the world, the Church [in the broad sense] has most often had the best of it, at that. Certainly the influence has not been all one way as you appear from above quote to believe.

In Ireland, my feeling is that it has nearly always been the RC Church that has dominated where conflict of interest has arisen. And I would point out that pregnant Irish girls, as someone pointed out above, still have to make the journey to England, as they once did to California on chartered air flights for the purpose [see Ch 1 of David Lodge's distinguished campus novel Changing Places, 1975], to get a legal abortion -- or in any event did so until very recently.

In most cases, I repeat, it has been religion that led & society that followed. Still the case in most Islamic countries -- see all the threads about THAT particular issue! -- rather than the way round you suggested above, Joe.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 01:50 AM

I meant to make the point above that, notoriously, the Spanish crown & state were for centuries entirely in thrall to the Holy Office, aka The Spanish Inquisition, as is well known.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:00 AM

Michael, you're confusing "State" with society and taking a legalistic viewpoint. While both Church and State are good at writing laws, actual morality comes from something deeper - it's based on societal norms and taboos. The laws of both Church and State reflect that societal morality, and it is very difficult to enact effective law that does not complement societal morality.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:44 AM

But these invariably derive their authority, always, from time immemorial, from a supposed supernatural entity, as interpreted by its representatives on earth: as demonstrated by your invocation of the concept of "taboo", Joe. More than just a 'dead metaphor' in this context.

Who crowned Solomon king? Why, Zadok the Priest and Nahum the Prophet, of course.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:58 AM

....and it's been my experience that law and authority have very little effect on most people. Most people do what they want to do, and what they personally think is the right thing to do. They choose to associate with groups that reflect their values and norms, not the other way around.

I just don't buy this idea of "brainwashing" or of people conforming themselves to the dictates of church authority. Yes, there are religious orders within the Catholic Church that are authoritarian and require obedience. But usually people join these orders because they want to subject themselves to authoritarianism. God knows why....

In my two trips to Ireland, I saw religious authoritarianism and severity that made me retch. But it seemed to me that the people who practiced religion in that severe fashion, did so because they wanted to and not because it was forced upon them. MG has a very severe view of her Catholic faith, but it's something she has chosen.

On the other hand, I saw Catholic convents and parishes that were lively and loving and vibrant - and intellectually stimulating.

The same is true for Catholicism everywhere. Some Catholics choose authoritarianism, and authoritarianism is available to them (although I pity their poor children who have no choice in the matter). But many Catholics, not only in the United States, chose a gentler form of the Faith - and that, too, is available to them.

This won't satisfy Musket. He understands only uniformity. He believes that churches can't be churches unless they practice rigid uniformity - and then he loathes them because of that rigidity.

But the fact of the matter is that there is a wide diversity of thought and practice within the Catholic Church, as one might expect in a billion-member organization. And I freely admit that we have more than our fair share of assholes. I try to stay away from them.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:14 AM

"I just don't buy this idea of "brainwashing"
Jesuit maxim
"Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man"
The brainwashing of someone who has no choice - a child
While the church maintains its grip over education in Ireland, this will remain the case.
It is little wonder they are fighting as hard as they are to maintain that grip.
If anybody where I live wishes to send their child to a non or mixed denomination school, in theory they would have to travel 20 miles to the market town, in practice, 50, into Galway, where they may find a place, if they were lucky
Where is the choice in that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:24 AM

Hmmm. Interesting question, Michael. I have to say that while Church and State may derive their authority from from a supposed supernatural entity, the "entity" derives its authority from the society that worships that entity.

To my mind, God doesn't really deal with authority - that's a human concept. God simply is. I see God as the Essence of All, as Love, as That Which Is Beyond. I see that God as worthy of pondering and of awe, which is my form of prayer. It works for me, and I'm not particularly concerned whether it works for anyone else.

Morality is societal conduct and values that make sense for the health of society. And since there is an element of transcendence in whatever it is that makes society good and healthy and constructive, there is God-stuff in morality.

But Authority? That's a human thing. Humans ascribe it to God because it reinforces their own human authority. But I don't really think God cares about authority.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:52 AM

He does, I've channelled it, Joe. Used to work for Javier Solana, European State Derpartment equivalent. My IQ's through the ceiling, I'm told, but it wasn't ever me.
What you need to do s start taking Matthew 5-8 seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:57 AM

Guest, are you saying that God used to work for Javier Solana??? I think I knew Javier back in the day. Gee, all these years, and I didn't know that.

And the inimitable Jim Carroll quotes:

"Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man"

You call that brainwashing, Jim, and I call that education. You correctly ascribe that statement to the Jesuits, I think; and the Jesuits have rightly prided themselves in teaching "critical thinking" - teaching people to think for themselves in non-ideological ways.

To be honest, I sometimes think that you and some others here are incapable of thinking in non-ideological ways, and thus are incapable of comprehending that thought can be anything other than ideological. The popular phrase nowadays is "thinking outside the box" - and you can't do that and don't even understand what that means. Tolerance is impossible for you, because you see all of life as a battle of ideologies - and you are set on your ideology being on the winning side.

I think many of you need to break out of your shell and accept the fact that this wonderful world of ours is profoundly fucked up and always will be - and that's part of what makes it wonderful. There are no straight lines. Nothing is all good, and nothing is all bad - it is what it is, and that's quite wonderful.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:06 AM

'I visited a number of Sisters of Mercy convents when I was in Ireland a couple of years ago. The scary nuns are all good, and all you see in Irish convents now are nice old ladies who are obsessed with making tea - and it's darn good tea, too.'

How much is it perception and what we want to see Joe? My son, many of his friends, with classic teenage hyperbole, as well as others who visited the local secondary, Mercy convent, school maintain the nuns are evil creatures.

And whatever old ladies they may appear now, if the story of Christine Buckley's childhood is anything to go by, they used to carry a big stick. And they probably managed a nice cup of tea as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:18 AM

I meant to say that the scary nuns are all gone - but I guess that "good" works pretty well, too.

You know, Peter, I don't really believe your teenage son and his hyperboles. He's tied to stereotypes, and so are you. I've worked with nuns all my life, and I'm an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy (my wife makes comments about being married to a nun...). They're just people, and they don't fit any stereotype. Some are a pain in the ass, but most are quite remarkable women. And yes, I suppose some are capable of committing crimes (or at least they might have when they were younger). But they're just people, living life the way they see best, as we all do.

Now, my boss is a Loretto sister, a member of the Institute of the Blessed Virgin Mary. She's a terrible flirt, which I kind of enjoy. She's worked with poor and homeless people for 25 years - she took two years off to work with refugees in Rwanda. And she's remarkable, no doubt about it. And she doesn't fit your stereotype.

My friend Sister Libby went through three years of the U.S. Air Force Academy when they first accepted women, but she dropped out because of constant sexual harassment. She finished her obligation to the Air Force as an enlisted member, and then became a Sister of Mercy. She is executive director of the Loaves and Fishes Dining Room in Sacramento, providing for the needs of hundreds of people. And she's funny, and fun to be with, and a very normal-seeming person.

For the most part, nuns are remarkable people. I admit, though, that there are some bad eggs among them. After all - they're people.

Your story of Christine Buckley is most likely at least partly true. There were horrific institutions run by Catholic nuns in Ireland, and they died out far later than they did in the rest of the world. But by about 1990, they had pretty much died out in Ireland, too.

But no, I don't buy your implication that the nuns still with the Sisters of Mercy in Ireland are of that sort. I talked with them at length, and they certainly don't appear to have deep dark secrets of evildoing to hide. But then I don't see people that way; and I find that most people who see people as evil, have a mindset that tends to find evil. I'm sorry, but I just can't see most people as evil.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:29 AM

Too fucking true Joe. Except I don't hate religion for its conformity, I resent that they try to influence society. I don't recall seeing Jesus on the ballot sheet. And until they stop being misogynist and homophobic, they are to be dismissed and ignored in totality by respectable citizens.

And if they don't do what they insist vulnerable people do? Well that's plain hypocrisy which means they wouldn't get the votes of decent people anyway.

Don't shout at me for dismissing dangerous institutions who want to have control over people. Shout at yourself for supporting them.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:34 AM

Musket, take some time to study the color grey. You see things only in black and white, and that can get really annoying at times.

Think about expanding your mind, and try a little tolerance.

Honesty, you and Jim Carroll are about as priggishly moralistic as your nun stereotypes.

Why is it that you think that religious people shouldn't have the same right you have to join with others and attempt to influence society?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:44 AM

...and while you claim not to hate religion for its conformity, you cannot even fathom the fact of its nonconformity. You see churches and religious people as uniformly evil, because your rigid mindset will not allow you to see the wide spectrum that religion encompasses - some good, some bad.

And on top of that, you and Mr. Carroll are incapable of seeing religion as anything but ideology, because the two of you are so rigidly ideological that you can see nothing else.


Open your friggin' eyes.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:56 AM

'You know, Peter, I don't really believe your teenage son and his hyperboles. He's tied to stereotypes, and so are you. I've worked with nuns all my life, and I'm an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy (my wife makes comments about being married to a nun...). They're just people, and they don't fit any stereotype. Some are a pain in the ass, but most are quite remarkable women. And yes, I suppose some are capable of committing crimes (or at least they might have when they were younger). But they're just people, living life the way they see best, as we all do.'

Joe, I was just saying nuns may appear nice old ladies but it's all perception and depends on the role you deal with them. My son and the others who attended the school didn't get invited for tea in the big house. They dealt with the sisters in a very different capacity.

There was one of the nuns who used to work at the school, I'd see her when I do the school run every day. she's come out and feed the birds every day. I admit I loved the image of the old lady surrounded by dozens of big black crows and rooks but never mind that, the friendly old lady fell back to the manner of her teaching days when the pupils left school and maybe walked a bit too quickly for her liking. She shouted them down in a very authoritative manner, quite the transformation.

Yes, human beings living life, I can't disagree with that. But for ever peddling the idea they're all just nice tea making ladies (aren't all older Irish women?), how's that not being tied to stereotypes?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:59 AM

At the end of the day it worked for them not because of Society but because the priests pushed the individual members of the congregation into compliancy. It's what the Confessional is about. The heirarch is never wrong. Even when he or she is.
Let's remove it from a religious setting and look at a secular equivalent, Haut de la Garenne in Jersey. There too the civil authorities have been shown to be covering up a scandal, in forcing the equivalent historian-journalist Leah McGrath Goodman out of the country, which was sufficient to cause a rebound and full judicial investigation. See the difference? Cover-up and little action in the one case, cover-up and judicial investigation in the other, which will likely lead to criminal charges. It's too early to preempt the outcome, of course, but the basic facts about Jersey are clear from the survivors. The basic facts about Tuam could also be clear - if the survivors were given the confidence to speak for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:24 AM

"You call that brainwashing, Jim, and I call that education"
It is a boast of Christian teaching Joe, not education- if you get your hands on a human being early enough, you can make them anything you wish to.
This is why the church is fighting as hard as it is to maintain their grip on the minds of children.
Any changes in the church recently are due to their having been found out
I was brought up among Christians - mine is neither an ideological or outsider's view of its practices and its influence - it is an up-close one of its practices - I was in "the box".
The fact that my parents chose not to send me for a religious education has, I think, enabled me to think outside it and be aware of both sides of the argument.
Pupils in Ireland still do the choices my parents had - her it is religious education or no education at all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:33 AM

The idea that Every Day In Every Way Things Are Getting Better And Better, as applied to the Catholic Church, is dead wrong.

In the UK, and presumably Ireland too, there has been a large influx of Polish Catholics (in Edinburgh, there are probably more people going to Mass in Polish than in English). They have brought much of their ideology with them, which means the rabidly misogynistic crap that has rolled back all the gains women made in Polish society since WW2. And the Catholic Church in Poland has made damn sure that NOTHING of what they've been up to with children has ever been investigated by an independent authority.

As if they weren't bad enough, the British priesthood has been infiltrated by a right-wing fraction (I forget its name, but it was closely aligned with Ratzinger both while he was Wojtyla's enforcer and subsequently) which sees itself as the ideological police. In Edinburgh this meant in one instance that church libraries were purged of all internally dissident literature by people like Hans Küng. I presume these arseholes have been operating in Ireland too.

So. Between a plague of thick-as-pigshit Reagan/Wojtyla fanboys and a Rome-directed elite of ruthless ideologues, the prospects for truth and accountability in these islands don't look that great. And given that despite the admirable statements of intent, Francis looks like ending up about as ineffectual as Obama, I can't see it getting much better in the long run anywhere else.

When Italy became a nation in the 1870s, the whole central part of the "boot" was absorbed into that new nation. That part of Italy had been the Papal States. In the Lateran Concordat of 1929, Italy compensated the Vatican for the loss of the Papal States. That money became the endowment that has supported the Vatican to this day - and yes, there has been corruption in the management of that money at times, but the money is still there. So, the Vatican is in the enviable position of being healthily endowed and largely self-supporting.

Where do you think the money came from? Their wealth meant the poverty of the Italian people. Mussolini bought the Church's allegiance nearly a century ago and it's stayed bought.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:38 AM

Talking to my colleagues in the Belgian compaign, we thought it had settled down in 2010 and the Church had gone away to lick it's wounds.
Fat chance, they have returned back on the same evil old plan. This is not ancient history, an abusive Church continues, sick to its very core. I'm talking about the ArchiAssociation of the Eucharist here, the very core of the creed, riddled with evil with the full cooperation of the Vatican.
Roma delenda est.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Stu
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:41 AM

"Open your friggin' eyes."

Here's the fundamental problem with discussing anything with religious people; their default position is EVERYONE who doesn't agree with them is wrong, otherwise they would have to accept their faith might be misplaced . . . and that would imply the possibility of God not existing, something they incapable of accepting if they are true believers.

I would suggest the reason for the rejection of established, instutionalised religion is philosophical as well as ideological, and depend on whether one believes the individual is ultimately responsible and answerable for their own actions regardless, and whether in time we are capable of understanding that past actions have consequences to this day.

Would you let a Concentration Camp guard off because he's old? Would you tell everyone in the North of Ireland to forget about the troubles because some of it happened in the 1970s?

I would suggest you might want to open your friggin' mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:48 AM

Francis' relationship with the Mothers of the Square of 5th May says it all. Betrayal.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 07:01 AM

I don't know about nuns Joe but I seem to be on the side of the angels...

I only see in black and white? I need to study grey?

Bollocks. I can see a rainbow and that's a hell of a lot more than the limitations of superstitious misogynists and homophobes.

You don't even read my posts if your latest observations are anything to go by. My plea for meaningful equality means everybody has a stake. However, Jesus isn't a stakeholder. If you worship him fine, but don't try to inject his bible into reality. That's how you get callous nuns, buggering priests and gilded Vatican halls.

Your simplistic condemnation of rational thought is nearer the doctrine of your black hooded priests than that of a decent chap who claims to question doctrine.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 08:07 AM

"Pupils in Ireland still do the choices my parents had "
Sorry - should read "Pupils in Ireland still do not have the choices my parents had"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:54 PM

I am contemplating what Susan Lohan said in the Irish Examiner I believe...she runs an adoption rights organization. She said..and I had never heard this proposed before..that these mother and child institutions..or mother sans child and child sans mother...were set up to keep the young women from going to England and having babies adopted by Protestants. So they literally imprisoned them.

I had wonderful nuns in grade school, but I can absolutely imagine some of my high school ones throwing bodies into a septic tank because someone told them to. And they might have made us do it too and we might have done it.

And read all you can about Vatican finances..read up on BIshop or AB Marcincus and his thrall over Pope Paul VI. Read about the Mafia deaths. Read everything about the death of Pope John Paul I. You don't need to read any conspiracy theory stuff..just read the lists of people who died..cardinals dropping dead at Mass..other cardinals being killed by parts of buildings falling on them. THis stuff can be verified I hope..I am not going to. I am convinced that if we unravel the mysterious death of this pope a lot will unravel. I think that the church needs to get the hell out of Italy once and for all..they will never get rid of Mafia connections otherwise.. and go way way back...Ireland and its offshoots in Australia and US could go back to Celtic Christianity or Catholicism. Then we could weave little crosses out of grasses and we could visit holy wells and leave tokens behind (which I did at St. Gobnit's well recently) and have chants for churning butter etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: BrendanB
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:20 PM

OK, I am a Catholic and I am planning to stay a Catholic. That said, the vileness in Tuam and the dismissiveness of both the clergy and the order of nuns is obscene and sickening. If the Irish state has even the semblance of a backbone it will pursue this case vigorously, identify the guilty, name names and prosecute anyone who had criminal involvement. Do you think they will? No, me neither.
But Catholicism is not defined by the actions of an individual be they pope or pauper. Catholicism is a set of principles and of standards which adherents have failed to live up to since the inception of Christianity. I truly believe that Judas Iscariot believed his actions were righteous.
The church establishment has warped and twisted and undermined the Christian message for hundreds of years. But you know what? Screw the church establishment. My Catholicism resides in the goodness, decency and sanctity of my fellow Catholics, the ones who care for the vulnerable, stand up for the friendless, and speak out for what they believe to be right. I fail on a daily basis, I'm a shit Catholic. Knowing that I weep when I see the church powerful crap on decency - not Catholic decency, just ordinary, common, human decency.
Tuam, abuse of children by priests, collaboration with the nazis by the Vatican, the Magdalen laundries, the use of Catholicism to veil a thousand acts of wickedness - these are all vile and indefensible.   But they are the actions of fallible people. The standards and principles of Catholicism condemn them far more than any human agency can.
When you attack someone like Joe Offer for his beliefs you are looking 180 degrees in the wrong direction. I suspect that his grief and pain regarding Tuam is more raw and painful than yours because of his loyalty to a faith that has been besmirched by others, and yet he still seeks to live out that faith, truly and honourably.

Joe, I am sorry if I misrepresent you.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:30 PM

Joe: "I just don't buy this idea of "brainwashing"

Jim: Jesuit maxim
"Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man"
The brainwashing of someone who has no choice - a child

Well, gee, Jim, I always thought it meant that if you instill a love of learning in a child before the age of seven, he/she will have a lifelong love of learning.

I just haven't come across all these "brainwashed" people you people talk about. Maybe you're watching too many zombie movies, or something (or maybe Dawkins movies - same thing ;-)).

---

Musket says: And until they stop being misogynist and homophobic, they are to be dismissed and ignored in totality by respectable citizens.

Ah, but Musket, not all religious people are misogynist or homophobic. I'm a religious person, you know; and I and most religious people I respect, share your disdain for misogynists and homophobes. How does that fit into your equation?

And Musket sez: Your simplistic condemnation of rational thought is nearer the doctrine of your black hooded priests than that of a decent chap who claims to question doctrine.
Damn! And all this time I thought I've been a big fan of rational thought! Please point out this "simplistic condemnation" of mine.

Richard Bridge says" The alliance between the roman catholic church and the Irish state has been a terrible, terrible source of oppression. I think I could agree with that. And, as somebody says above, the same is true for Poland. There's bound to be trouble any time the vast majority of citizens in a nation belongs to the same religious group. Religious people are much better-behaved when they're the minority.

CS says: Any serious institutional crime, and especially one that is within the living memory of those who may have suffered from it, is worthy of pursuing in court.

I believe that atonement for great acts of evil, is a cathartic - psychological and even spiritual - necessity for both the individual victims and the collective victims (ie: society as a whole) of those corrupt and powerful organisations that perpetrated them with impunity. I think that is a very wise statement, and worth repeating.

Stu says: Here's the fundamental problem with discussing anything with religious people; their default position is EVERYONE who doesn't agree with them is wrong, otherwise they would have to accept their faith might be misplaced . . . and that would imply the possibility of God not existing, something they incapable of accepting if they are true believers.
I would suggest the reason for the rejection of established, instutionalised religion is philosophical as well as ideological, and depend on whether one believes the individual is ultimately responsible and answerable for their own actions regardless, and whether in time we are capable of understanding that past actions have consequences to this day. Stu, what you and Musket don't seem to comprehend, is that a vast number of religious people don't think in the way you describe. Every day, I acknowledge the possibility that God doesn't exist - that keeps me honest. I think that everyone who doesn't agree with me, has a perspective different from mine - and it may well be that both of us are right. Oh, and did you know that "the individual is ultimately responsible and answerable for their own actions" is the underlying principle of all Catholic moral teaching?

I happen to agree with most of the things that most of the people have said above. What I cannot agree with, are the blanket statements, the constant insistence that all religion is the same, that religious instruction or any instruction by religious people on any subject is "brainwashing," or that there is something inherently evil in all religion and that the day must come soon when all religion is abolished.

As in all of these Mudcat religious discussions, religion ends up being defined in very narrow, fundamentalist terms as some kind of mind control. People go on and on and on about the bad things that happen in churches - and most of these are true and are indeed deplorable. I see deplorable things happen in churches a lot more often than I'd like to - but I also know the other side. My experience in the Catholic Church is about 90 percent good and ten percent bad, which I don't think is a bad balance. I feel a great obligation to oppose that ten percent with all my power, and I do my best. I certainly don't deny all those bad things, and I don't defend them.

In 16 years of Catholic education (including 8 years of seminary), I did not experience anything like the horror stories so often conveyed here. I think I got an excellent education and that I learned to think for myself early on - and most of the Catholic-educated people I know, are the same. This accusation of "brainwashing" seems preposterous to me.

So, when you make your blanket statements, be careful. There's a damn good chance that many religious groups and many religious people are not as you describe. They may be as rational and intelligent and tolerant as you are - maybe more so.

As I said above, open your friggin' eyes.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 10:47 PM

Joe, the problem is that your response allows the abusers to hide behind you. Nobody's saying everyone in the Roman Church is a child abuser, what they're saying is the Church as a whole allows child abuse free rein. Michael Neary, the Archbishop of Tuam, for example, simply pontificated about meeting leaders of the Bon Secours Order to assist with a memorial. Nothing about asking the Police to investigate, or giving the remains a decent Christian burial or anything. They never counted in life, so why in death? is obviously his motto.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 11:09 PM

I think they should not be buried right away but should be removed from the septic tank and have forensic and dna testing and then be buried..you do not want to bury them and then bring them up later. There could be memorials right away of course...leaving in the is too traumatic for the relatives and current children...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 11:10 PM

I get the sense Joe feels beleaguered and that's wrong/ he does a lot for us. we should be grateful and respectful.

he belongs to an organisation that will only employ you as a priest if you forswear sex. now I think even the most devout catholic would agree - you're bound to get more than a few odd coves - applying for jobs like that.

nevertheless Joe believes and identifies with the broad aims of the church. obviously gets some spiritual sustenance there - so leave him alone!

good guy!

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 11:44 PM

Ah, gang: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: LadyJean
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 11:53 PM

A tale is told of a priest here in Pittsburgh who fathered children by three married ladies in his parish, before somebody found out what he was doing. I don't know what happened to him. But, as all parties were adults, and knew what they were doing, I'm not terribly outraged.

Read about abuses in Native American schools in the U.S. and Canada for horrors. Not all of them were run by The Catholic Church, or any church.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I know this from experience. Power with no oversight is going to be abused. This is true in a church, in a prison, in the military, in a school, in a factory and any place else you care to name.

There are any number of equally shocking accounts of "baby farms" in nineteenth century England, and I did mention the Ideal Maternity Home in Nova Scotia. We don't know how many babies died there.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 01:22 AM

Yes, indeed, Joe is a very good guy. One of the best I have ever come across in my 80+ years...

But you are all skating scared around the fact that these high principles on which he has based his entire life & thinking rest on a series of facts and postulations which just ain't so. There simply isn't this benign being who wishes us well and is so sad when we depart from his paths of righteousness & all that jazz. A point much insufficiently taken into account when considering all Joe's undoubted virtues ~~ whose whole edifice comes crashing down when this incontrovertible [oh, ok, not incontrovertible, just 99+∞% so] fact is taken into account.

Mind you, when Joe then appears seriously to interpret St Ignatius Loyola's notorious brainwash as meaning simply "that if you instill a love of learning in a child before the age of seven, he/she will have a lifelong love of learning", then he is not just one of the best guys I have ever come across in my long life,

but by a googol of lengths the most naive -- or disingenuous.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 02:13 AM

Thread #154680   Message #3630969
Posted By: GUEST
06-Jun-14 - 10:47 PM
Thread Name: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
Joe, the problem is that your response allows the abusers to hide behind you. Nobody's saying everyone in the Roman Church is a child abuser, what they're saying is the Church as a whole allows child abuse free rein. Michael Neary, the Archbishop of Tuam, for example, simply pontificated about meeting leaders of the Bon Secours Order to assist with a memorial. Nothing about asking the Police to investigate, or giving the remains a decent Christian burial or anything. They never counted in life, so why in death? is obviously his motto.

I really find anonymous posts annoying. I know there's no longer a rule prohibiting anonymous posts, but I believe that identifying yourself in a conversation is the civil thing to do.

Nonetheless, I think this post warrants an answer.

---

Our anonymous writer says my response allows the abusers to "hide behind me." I'm sorry, but I can't understand why that might be. I spent thirty years as a U.S. government investigator. I've read tens of thousands of crime reports, and I know what it takes to investigate a crime thoroughly. It takes honesty and balance, and a dispassionate attitude - and most of all, it takes time. All the screaming and tabloid journalism and Dawkins propaganda only serves to cover up the truth.

We really don't know the facts of this case yet, and that's important to acknowledge. At this point, there's nothing for church spokesmen to say, and yet they have to say something. The poor priest who said that the incident happened in another time and must be understood within context, told the absolute truth - but he was going to be excoriated for whatever he would say, and he certainly was here. And then somebody said above that the local bishop "pontificated" by offering to help pay for a memorial to tell the story of the babies who died. It was said that the bishop was wrong for not demanding an immediate investigation - hey, it's a forgone conclusion in situations like these that there's going to be an extensive investigation, so what's the sense in demanding one? There's a good story on this in Saturday's Irish Times, which says, "In a statement last night, Archbishop of Tuam Michael Neary said while the archdiocese would co-operate with any inquiry, it did not have any involvement in the running of the home and had no records in its archives."

That points out a reality that even most Catholics do not understand - the Catholic Church has a very loose authority structure. Rome has very little control over what happens in the rest of the world, and even local bishops have a difficult time knowing and controlling what goes on in their own diocese. The illusion is that the Pope in Rome counts and controls every footstep of every Catholic, but that is far from the reality. Even the extremist Catholics who profess absolute obedience and loyalty to the Pope, are loyal only to whatever it is they think he should be saying. I've asked these people what the Pope says about this or that, and they really can't come up with an answer because they really don't know (and really don't want to know). I have a good idea what Benedict and Pope Francis have said because I read what they say. Can't say the same for John Paul II - I despised him and his flowery, self-serving style of writing. I have to admit, though, that John Paul said some pretty good things against the U.S. wars in Iraq.

So, keep that reality of the loose authority structure of the Catholic Church in mind when you study these incidents. If you continue to believe that every step was dictated by Rome, you will never be able to understand the truth.

I said that details of the instant offense are not yet known. That is the absolute truth, and it is dangerous to speculate because all that speculation serves to conceal the truth. But on the other hand, we know the general story very well because we've heard it over and over again, all over the world. We've heard of the industrial schools and the Magdalene Laundries and so many other church and government institutions have been sites for systematic abuse of children. We've also heard the ongoing story of molestation of children by priests. The institutions no longer exist, so almost all of those institutional problems are long in the past. They must be investigated and action must be taken to provide punishment and compensation where appropriate - but the fact of the matter is that this was all in the past and is unlikely to happen again.

The molestation of children continues, by priests and others, in religious contexts and in other situations. If we're not careful, we can let the long-past institutional scandals distract us from ongoing crimes of child molestation.

I've studied these things since I first became aware of them in the 1960s, and I still don't have the answer I'm seeking: Why did these things, happen, and why were they covered up? Part of the answer lies in the individuals who committed the crimes, part in the church that employed them and at times concealed their crimes, and part lies in the society that ignored the fact that these things were happening.

I generally don't think much of bishops and I have mixed feelings about a lot of priests, but some of the priests who molested boys were people I admired and knew well. And two of the bishops were people I thought were remarkable leaders in the cause of social justice, Roger Mahoney of Los Angeles and Rembert Weakland of Milwaukee, showed themselves to be of weaker stuff when they were confronted with the child molestation scandal. Why?

I was a camp counselor in college and a Scout leader for over twenty years as an adult, and I have worked with kids all my life. It has occurred to me that I could be a suspect in the midst of all this, even though I've never done anything inappropriate to a child other than losing my temper a time or two. But in this day and age, you can go to jail for losing your temper at a kid who has driven you to the brink.

There are many, many unanswered questions, and we desperately need to know the answers. But to arrive at the answers, we need time, honesty, and a far-reaching examination of all factors that may have contributed - including the societal mores that allowed such institutions to be established. All the screaming and tabloid-style rants, all the Dawkins propaganda, all the hysteria - it all gets in the way of what we really need to do.

And in the midst of all this, we need to respect each other, and refrain from pointing fingers of blame.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 02:57 AM

MtheGM, I think you've been listening to too much Dawkins propaganda.

You say, "these high principles on which he has based his entire life & thinking rest on a series of facts and postulations which just ain't so."

Well, yes, I do live my life on high principles. Those principles are based on rational thinking* about what I want to accomplish in life, not on any particularly religious principles. And by the way, my perspective is that you live your own life based on high principles that are also derived from rational thinking.

I addressed this issue in a message to you above:

To my mind, God doesn't really deal with authority - that's a human concept. God simply is. I see God as the Essence of All, as Love, as That Which Is Beyond. I see that God as worthy of pondering and of awe, which is my form of prayer. It works for me, and I'm not particularly concerned whether it works for anyone else.

I realize that this differs from the idea of God as defined by the Dawkins Doctrine, but it's a more accurate understanding of the God that non-fundamentalist people revere.

If you see things through the eyes of a number of philosophical schools, everything has an essence of one sort or another. People can believe in an essence, whether they believe in God or not. I see that essence as sacred - but whether it's sacred or not, it's still there.
And most people believe in Love, whether or not they believe in God. I see Love as sacred and divine. But whether Love is divine or not, it still exists.

Non-ideological people of faith see the same things everybody else sees, but they see a divine element in what they hold sacred. So, their faith is seeing the same things through a different perspective, a perspective of sacredness. It's like seeing life through a really great pair of sunglasses, with an added dimension of richness and wonder...and sacredness. Now, other people have other perspectives that add depth to their perception of life. No perspective is better than the other - they're all valid, and they're all different.

I submit that despite the false misdefinition of faith that Mr. Dawkins has so effectively promulgated, faith doesn't "rest on a series of facts and postulations which just ain't so." Faith is a different perspective, but it can be every bit as valid as the perspective of one of you enlightened atheists.


And then you Dawkins atheists are going to want to attack the Bible, and I think maybe you need to accept the fact that there are valid ways of looking at sacred writings that are far different from the fundamentalist understandings that Mr. Dawkins proposes. Most cultures, including our own, have ancient writings that have been held sacred for centuries or even millennia. There is great truth to be found in the sacred writings of almost every culture, if those writings are understood in proper context. And a simplistic, fundamentalist, literal understanding of such writings is almost always wrong.

So, Michael, drop the propaganda and think again.

-Joe-

*Musket accuses me above of a "simplistic condemnation of rational thought." He hasn't answered my request for an explanation. Until he explains, I'm going to believe that I do hold rational thought in high esteem.

Oh, and while I'm at it, I gotta say something about that "give me a child" statement attributed to the Jesuits. All that stuff about that phrase being just the underpinnings for brainwashing, is propaganda from the Dawkins machine. It's a major part of their "doctrine." Look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 02:58 AM

There's one hell of a difference between pointing blame and observing the reaction of the Catholic Church authorities to the issue.

Joe yet again links the moral stance of individual members to the blame that is attached to the criminals in this case and the church authorities that condoned and supported the regime.

By feeling offended, you ascribe yourself disdain that has not been aimed in the first place. I take issue with your ideas of statute of limitation and I take issue with your pointing out the good work of the Catholic Church. That's it. So stop carrying a cross you can drop at any time.

You wish me to explain why I use the word rational when applied to people who don't have an imaginary friend? Simple. You yourself point out the good work of the catholic movement but separate it from the bad. You can't have it both ways. If you associate yourself with good works you can't wash your hands of the criminal aspects carried out by members in the name of the church and not condemned till the world found out what was going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 03:28 AM

Musket, I can't quite figure out what you see wrong with my seeking balance by "pointing out the good work of the Catholic Church." I think that if you want to see the truth of the matter, you have to look at both the good and the bad. In your own life, haven't you done a lot of good things and a few bad things? Same thing with me, and the same thing with my Catholic Church - the good exists, and the bad exists.

And just what is "the reaction of the Catholic Church authorities" to this mass grave discovery? People above have speculated upon brief comments from a priest and a bishop, but it's far too early and far too little is known for anyone to make a rational response to this discovery. As far as I can tell, the only "reaction" you have to condemn is a couple of sound bites. Give it some time, willya?

My suggestion of twenty years for a statute of limitations is just my idea, from my perspective as an investigator. After twenty years, it's damn hard to get the really accurate information needed for criminal prosecution. My personal opinion is that by that time, the parties involved are all totally different people. By that time, it may be better to resolve the situation by means other than prosecution - but as CS says, such situations still need resolution, healing, and a feeling that justice has been done. My twenty-year proposal is my opinion, and I think I have a right to that. I suppose you have a right to be appalled by my proposal, but I think that would be a very immature response.



Oh, and I'm still waiting for your explanation of my "simplistic condemnation of rational thought."


-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 03:29 AM

You grossly, and most offensively if I may say so, underrate me, Joe. I was there long before Dawkins -- I won't say before he was born, as he is only 9 years younger than me; but certainly long before he was ever even heard of. What do you mean by saying I am influenced in any way by his 'propaganda'? — "been listening to too much Dawkins propaganda" in-bloody-deed!. How very dare you!

The fact that he has recently published a summary of what I, and millions of other rational beings, have been thinking & saying for years, and contrived to pick his moment skilfully to ride the zeitgeist & call in aid a well-oiled publicity machine, doesn't make me [us] mere mouthpiece for parroting his, to us, self-evidently accurate views. We have just got a new spokesperson for the nonce, is all.

Most disagreeably surprised at such a cheap shot from you, Joe.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 03:45 AM

OK, Michael, you arrived at your own distorted view of religious faith on your own, although you define religious faith in words that are strangely similar to those of the Dawkins machine. Maybe all atheist bigots talk the same. Maybe the wording was there long before Dawkins, and he's just marketing it. Rather than getting all bent out of shape about that, why don't you take the time to respond to what I said about faith being a sacred perspective rather than an ideology based on a false proposition? Exactly what is this false proposition that you suppose I base my life on? Your definition of faith and Musket's insulting "imaginary friend" bullshit do not even come close what I have worked very hard to explain to you is my faith. I took a risk and I explained to you twice as best I could what it is, that is sacred to me. I exposed myself to people like you and Musket and your propaganda.
I think that it should be possible for open-minded atheists and open-minded people of faith to have meaningful discussions of just about anything, with a respectful realization that they both have different but equally valid perspectives.
I don't think that fundamentalist religious people can do that, and I don't think that Dawkins atheists could do that. I had hoped that you and Musket and some others might be able to do that (Bill D does), but maybe you are too strongly tied to an absolutist way of looking at things.
Now, do me the favor of giving me a rational response.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:04 AM

You want an answer Joe?

You provided it yourself in your discussion with Michael.

I have yet to come across a person who uses a religion as their moral guide accept that some of us can be comfortable with our morals without needing such a crutch.

So you, like all the others, feel the need to think we use Dawkins as a substitute. That is a prime example of irrationality. I recall Jack the Sailor note I said something similar to Dawkins on a particular subject and he became adamant that I substituted his work for scripture in my moral code.

The blinkered rationale that we all have a faith of some description. That is what I mean. And that is part of the problem.

You can point to catholic good works all day but if you insist on them describing Catholicism , you can't be surprised when I ask if issues such as this thread subject describe it also?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:06 AM

"I just haven't come across all these "brainwashed" people you people talk about."
My family lived in awe, and often in fear of the clergy - my mother constantly admitted it, my father's fear was replaced by contempt when he witnessed their behaviour in one of Franco's prisons.
He described how, as a prisoner during the Spanish Civil war, he was taken out and placed before a firing squad one morning.
Last rites were administered by the pries, and the executioners lined up and aimed their rifles - they all then fell about laughing at the fact he'd pissed himself.
The procedure was repeated at irregular intervals during his 18 months as a POW.   
My aunt and uncle spent their lives working with those trying to bring peace and civil rights to Ireland, I always admired their work and dedication, and the suffering they had experienced when they were forced to flee their burning home in Derry in the 1950s.
I visited them in their home near Ballymun, in Dublin some years before they died and was appalled to see their obsequious and fearful attitude towards their priest neighbour, even though the church had been one of the great opponents of their beliefs throughout their lives
"Give me a child for its first seven years..." indeed
Thankfully, the effects of brainwashing are rapidly disappearing from Ireland today, but it has taken horrific revelation of generations of church implicated abuse to exorcise them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:24 AM

Precisely. Thank you Musket. So just get hold of all that, Mr wanting-to-have-it-both-ways Offer.

There are only so many ways of stating the obvious; if Dawkins uses the same vocabulary that I was using 60 years before he even wrote a line, how dare you come up with a nasty little innuendo like "strangely similar"!? Don't be so bloody rude! Surprised at you.

"why don't you take the time to respond to what I said about faith being a sacred perspective rather than an ideology based on a false proposition?" you demand rhetorically. Why, because it's complete bollocks not worth wasting time on, if you really want to know.

That's why.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:41 AM

among all the debate above about who is responsible for this, and continuing, tragedy i have yet to see the obvious guilty party blamed. christians believe that god looks after us and is all powerful etc. while people are committing such appalling crimes against children where is he? is he discussing the finer points of theocracy- being a living god- in the minds of priests, popes and friendly fascists? how could any reasonable person continue to have faith in any omnipotent god who continually fails to intervene in even the most disgusting slaughter of the innocents? particularly when it is so often going on in 'his' houses. joe's glib 'it's a wonderful world' optimism seems insensitive at best in these circumstances

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:57 AM

Michael - you know I like and respect you.

Please don't call Joe names like Mr wanting-to-have-it-both-ways Offer.

best wishes to you both.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:11 AM

I suppose, achmelvich, it depends on whether or not you believe in a God who does tricks. You know, the man behind the screen, the magnificently mustachioed magician who makes wonderful things happen for those who pay the price of admission. Well, only people who don't believe in God, believe in a God like that.
And only people like Mr. Dawkins, believe in the God that Dawkins defines.
Bad things happen. That's the way life works. Part of the wonder of life, is the ability we humans have when we're at our best, to confront these bad things and prevail over them.
If people commit appalling crimes, then it's people -not God- who have to resolve those crimes.


Don't like my tying you to Richard Dawkins, fellahs? Well, I googled some of the buzzwords you folks use time and time again. "Imaginary friend?" - Dawkins. "Brainwashing" and the Jesuit "Give Me a Child" quote? - Dawkins. The buzzwords always come up tied to Dawkins.

Why don't you stop talking in buzzwords and take the time to read and think about exactly what I've written? I really believe that civil and fruitful discussion of any topic should be possible between religious and non-religious people, but only if they can respect the other for having a different but equally valid perspective. But how can I carry on any sort of discussion with you if you say I base my life on an invalid faith that you proceed to define according to your own specifications?

Musket says, I have yet to come across a person who uses a religion as their moral guide accept that some of us can be comfortable with our morals without needing such a crutch.. Twice before he made that statement, I said that I base my morals on rational thinking and not on faith. As I said above, morality is societal conduct and values that make sense for the health of society. And you know, I learned that in moral theology class. Now, if you're an ideological person and incapable of thinking for yourself, that doesn't work. And if you have not advanced beyond the ideological level, you cannot even comprehend that some people are able to function quite well by thinking for themselves - even if their thinking is different from the "correct" ideology.

Now, settle down and drop the buzzwords, and see if you can come up with some answers to the questions I ask.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,P
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:30 AM

Meanwhile, back in Tuam, Catherine Corless puts a bit of nuance on what was reported in the press earlier:

Tuuam mother and baby home : the trouble with the septic tank story

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:31 AM

That was me posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,"Hiding behind"
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:36 AM

Joe, you are a fine guy, but not the only one with a background in investigation. I was 20 years with the European Defence HQ running peaxemaking operations in places like the Balkans. I was put there by the Boss Man, quite indubitably, with a double agenda sorting out the perversion of the ArchiAssociation of the Eucharist, the home of the US Tabernacle Societies. The double-dealing of the Vatican in the preservation of what should be its core ethos is incredible - five major recalcitrances to date, defying several Papal instructions. I can document this from the public record.
In this instance, this starts to resemble a war crime. We're talking Auschwitz level in all but enormity and speed (and one of the assessors in the Baby P case is in my immediate circle, I should add). Anyone not promoting an urgent investigation, in my mind, has to be suspect, and when there is this kind of alignmment in association, then my comment that you are allowing the murderesses to hie behind you is entirely justified. The deaths and means thereunto are on the public record and therefore proven already, the only question being why no investigation was started long before, and the answer for that being that the investigators responsible were exactly like you and turned a blind eye nearly eight hundred times here alone.

One aspect to be remembered in partial mitigation is that the law on murder did not extend until early into this period to protect children under ten. But for most of the period it did, and common humanity has to ask why it wasn't applied.

We know that some of the mothers are still alive. We may therefore suspect that some of the Sisters are still as well, and so must ask why no measures are being taken to identify them yet. And that is why I say they are being allowed to hide behind the rest of the faith. Pope Francis has indicated that this kind of behaviour must stop, and it must stop immediately. So cease and desist, or you will have the same effect as the priests in this case trying to continue the cover-up, destroying what you most cherish.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:39 AM

I can't see why the fact that Ms Corless never used the word 'dumped' should preclude anyone else from doing so. What does she think happened? — that each separate individual bone was laid reverently in the septic tank to an Ave Maria & a Paternoster piously intoned?

Oh, come on, They were, so, 'dumped'. What does she or any of the rest of you find so offensive in the correct word being used?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:58 AM

This was posted on another thread by mistake, sorry.

From: akenaton - PM
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:24 AM

We don't know any of the details regarding the Irish remains, so theories are not very helpful at present.

Don't forget it's only a few years since UK hospitals disposed of stillborn babies in ways that were quite immoral.
Kept them in jars I believe, or disposed of them without the permission of the mothers.

I n saying that, the Catholic Church does have questions to answer, both over the sexual abuse of boys and young men by adult men and their historic attitude to unmarried mothers and their children.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 06:15 AM

from the Irish Times article that Peter Laban referred to:

What has upset, confused and dismayed her in recent days is the speculative nature of much of the reporting around the story, particularly about what happened to the children after they died. "I never used that word 'dumped'," she says again, with distress. "I just wanted those children to be remembered and for their names to go up on a plaque. That was why I did this project, and now it has taken [on] a life of its own."

And it's the speculation that I object to, also. There's no doubt that we need to find out what happened to all these children, but it's wise not to speculate until something is known.
I live next to a former state tuberculosis sanatorium, a place where many people died and were buried in nondescript graves. It seems that mass graves were common here in California until the 1950s - in March, I went to Fresno and visited the mass grave of the 28 Deportees that Woody Guthrie sang about.

My home's septic tank is a huge, sturdy concrete vault that looks very similar to the concrete vaults used in graveyards. It would not necessarily be an inappropriate grave.

When you speak of a body being "dumped," it has quite a different meaning from "interred." I suppose "placed" is a word that describes what's known without any extraneous implications.

So, maybe it's too soon to speculate, hey?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 06:17 AM

do i believe in a 'god who does tricks'? no i don't believe in any god

do you believe in a god who is omnipotent and who loves us?

do you believe in a god who is content to sit back and watch the most appalling crimes happen in his name?

where these crimes take place no-one is interested in your or anyone else's definition of any religious doctrine or excuse for the crime.

the victims are dead or in a living hell - i am lucky in that i don't have the problem of having to reconcile my faith with the callous behaviour of 'our creator' or his representatives and apologists on earth. maybe that distance from any faith allows me to see this and other atrocities more clearly for what they are.

really, how much more abuse can people take the world over from their faiths before we turn away from all such immoral and corrupt institutions

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 06:33 AM

A big difference between interred and in turd...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 06:37 AM

If not 'dumped in septic tank' then they were 'dropped into a septic tank.' 'Hundreds of dead babies dropped into a concrete pit' would suffice. I don't see how anything could correctly be described as being 'placed' in a septic tank, be it shit or dead children. Waste matter is dropped from a height into a pit.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 06:38 AM

" It would not necessarily be an inappropriate grave."
What!!!
This gets more and more disgusting as it continues.
Ireland is full of plots of land referred to as "kileens", there are even some towns bearing that name.
They are plots of unconsecrated ground once reserved for the bodies of children who died before they could receive the church's blessing, hence considered unfit for church burial.
These have long been regarded as an abomination and a part of Catholicism's barbaric past - now it seems that places where we dispose of our faeces is a suitable place to place dead children.
God protect us all from such 'Christians'.
I trust you consecrated your septic tank Joe - it seems important to some people?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 06:41 AM

Is there any jibe or crack too cheap for Musket to perpetrate, or any context where any possible sense or consideration of seemliness would deter him from doing so. Really doesn't appear so. He really is a - um - er - you·know - er

ain't he just!

Enjoy da barbie!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 06:54 AM

Which joke was that Michael?

If you thought I was cracking a joke above, it says more about your state of mind than mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:08 AM

Well, mebbe...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:11 AM

This, from the letter page of the Irish Times this morning.

"Sir, - In relation to infant deaths in mother-and-baby homes, James Deeny, who was appointed chief medical officer in the 1940s, provided interest¬ing insights in his biography.
With a death rate in Bessborough, Cork, of over 50 per cent (100 out of 180 babies born), Deeny personally inspected the home.
He said that, initially, he could find nothing wrong. Then he asked staff to undress the babies.
In his own words, he found "every baby had some purulent infection of their skin and all had green diarrhea, carefully covered up.
There was obviously a staphylococcus infection about. Without any legal authority I closed the place down and sacked the matron, a nun, and also got rid of the medical officer."
He added, "The deaths had been going on for years. They had done nothing about it but had accepted the situation and were quite complacent about it."
Bishop Lucey of Cork complained to the papal nuncio.
The nuncio complained to de Valera but Deeny's report in made clear that his decision was the right one.        
He recorded that with a new matron, medical officer, disinfection and painting, the death rate fell to single figures.        
Deeny wrote of his attempts by to deal with infant mortality in the wider community too - "it was very difficult. All sorts of vested interests were involved and the in-fighting was terrific, I came in for a lot of 'stick' and abuse."
-Yours, etc,        
Dr SANDRA McAVOY, Douglas Road, Cork."

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:56 AM

My home's septic tank is a huge, sturdy concrete vault that looks very similar to the concrete vaults used in graveyards. It would not necessarily be an inappropriate grave.

I sincerely hope you don't mean that, Joe - I thought you were better than that.

Next you'll be quoting from "Shine Your Buttons With Brasso, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,"Hidden behind"
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 09:13 AM

The data is there in the death certificates, Joe, it shows a long stream of deaths which should have been investigated by a coroner. In the UK, at any rate, there's also been a check in the system for a very long time that every body is disposed of responsibly, and this obviously hasn't happened here. So it doesn't need more prevarication waiting for more data to avoid speculation: the facts are there. Face themn and stop defending this sepulcher which if not actually whited has been grassed over.

Or maybe you prefer to explain it as the fruit of the Fair Folk?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 02:53 PM

"Would not necessarily be an inappropriate grave". In this context, what an unbelievably insensitive suggestion. Was this supposed to excuse in some way the method of disposal of these childen?

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:00 PM

Jim Carroll, when you posted that letter to the editor about the medical inspection, I first had the impression that you were posting evidence about the mother-and-baby home in Tuam, which is what we're talking about in this thread. But no, this is a report about another home in another county. Maybe the same thing happened at Tuam, but we don't know that yet.
So, no, you really don't have any actual data to add to the very sketchy information available about the discovery of the mass grave at Tuam. Still, the speculation runs wild. Greg F. is outraged at my attempt to say what was described as a septic tank could also be simply a concrete vault - and I'm not sure that there's verified evidence even of that. There's so much speculation, even in supposedly reputable newspapers, that it's hard to determine what actually are the facts of the matter.
If you want to investigate something and actually find out the truth, you have to start by stripping down the available information to what is actually known - remove all words that have additional implications implications and report in words that can be understood incontrovertibly, in only one way. "Septic tank" has all sorts of implications, so maybe it wasn't the correct word to use. I didn't know what a septic tank actually looked like until I moved here to the countryside in 2002 and started living here in a farm house built in 1942. Now I know about septic tanks. Ours is a concrete vault, it's almost a cube - ten feet long, eight feet wide, and ten feet deep. It has a partition inside that splits the vault into two chambers. It has a heavy concrete lid that slides across the top, and the lid is usually covered with a thin layer of dirt and leaves. And you know, it looks very much like the vaults that I've seen coffers lowered into in some graveyards.
Now, I've seen coffins being lowered into such concrete vaults - they're never "dumped." Maybe my use of the word "placed" also had unintentional implications. Maybe the only thing was can say so far is that the remains of bodies were found in a concrete vault - if we even know that. I don't see any documentation that this grave was ever actually dug up and investigated.
The concrete vault raises lots of questions, and we don't know any answers yet. if the vault actually was a septic tank and shows evidence of having been used as a septic tank, then its use as a mass grave would have all sorts of additional implications. Can we determine how these bodies ended up in the vault? Were they placed there all at once, perhaps moved from a morgue or from individual graves? Were they buried in dirt individually within the vault? Was the vault then sealed after the institution closed? Or could it be that all of the bodies were moved to the vault from less-permanent graves as part of the closing of the institution. We don't really know the answers, do we?
Now, the deaths of all of these children were carefully documented on individual death certificates. As reported in the Irish Times story in the link above - Between 2011 and 2013, historian Catherine Corless paid €4 each time to get the children's publicly available death certificates. She says the total cost was €3,184.
What questions can we ask about that? Corless paid €3,184 for the death certificates at €4 apiece, so that means there were 796 death certificates. Do we know, then, that there were exactly 796 bodies in the grave? It appears that each death was reported to legal authorities, including the cause of death. How many different signatures are there on the 796 death certificates? If only one person signed every certificate, was that person intentionally concealing these deaths? If a number of different people signed the certificates, why didn't at least one of them raise an alarm if something was amiss about these deaths? In the situation in Cork that Jim Carroll reported, the chief medical officer discovered malpractice and had the matron of the home sacked - why didn't a medical officer in Tuam do the same thing if there was malpractice in the Tuam institution? WAS there malpractice in the Tuam institution? If so, how many people knew about it and did nothing?

Now, if you ask Musket and Jim Carroll and MtheGM about this incident, you'll get some interesting answers. Musket will explain that his "imaginary friend" told him all this happened because the Catholic Church opposes gay marriage, and thus everyone who belongs to the Catholic Church is an evil baby-killer. Jim Carroll will come up with a lengthy, pseudo-scholarly explanation of how every single person in the county was brainwashed by evil Jesuits. MtheGM will explained that all those people in Tuam lived lives based on a "series of facts and postulations which just ain't so."

Looking a little further, though, it appears that Corless did extensive research of the story. It was reported on Facebook, apparently by Corless herself to a Facebook group called Mother/Baby Home Research. A guest poster who failed to name himself/herself above, posted the same text that he/she found on a Website called freethoughtblogs.com.

The first mention of the Tuam home in the Facebook group was dated 7 October 2013, and then the account by Corless was posted 6 January 2014. Peter Laban started this thread with a link to an article about the Tuam home in the Irish Times. Note that the Irish Times article first says the bodies "were possibly buried in a septic tank." Later in the story is the following: "Details are also emerging of the discovery in the 1970s of a large number of unidentified remains in a water tank close to the home, leading some to conclude that deceased children were disposed of in the tank without a proper burial or any records being kept on their interment." So, where did the idea of "dumping in a septic tank" come from?

An Irish Times article dated today, June 7, gives a list of headlines from all over the world about this Tuam story, and then says this:

Corless, who lives outside Tuam, has been working for several years on records associated with the former St Mary's mother-and-baby home in the town. Her research has revealed that 796 children, most of them infants, died between 1925 and 1961, the 36 years that the home, run by Bon Secours, existed.
Between 2011 and 2013 Corless paid €4 each time to get the children's publicly available death certificates. She says the total cost was €3,184. "If I didn't do it, nobody else would have done it. I had them all by last September."
The children's names, ages, places of birth and causes of death were recorded. The average number of deaths over the 36-year period was just over 22 a year. The information recorded on these State- issued certificates has been seen by The Irish Times; the children are marked as having died variously of tuberculosis, convulsions, measles, whooping cough, influenza, bronchitis and meningitis, among other illnesses.
The deaths of these 796 children are not in doubt. Their numbers are a stark reflection of a period in Ireland when infant mortality in general was very much higher than today, particularly in institutions, where infection spread rapidly. At times during those 36 years the Tuam home housed more than 200 children and 100 mothers, plus those who worked there, according to records Corless has found.
What has upset, confused and dismayed her in recent days is the speculative nature of much of the reporting around the story, particularly about what happened to the children after they died. "I never used that word 'dumped'," she says again, with distress. "I just wanted those children to be remembered and for their names to go up on a plaque. That was why I did this project, and now it has taken [on] a life of its own."
In 2012 Corless published an article entitled "The Home" in the annual Journal of the Old Tuam Society. By then she had discovered that the 796 children had died while at St Mary's, although she did not yet have all of their death certificates.
She also discovered that there were no burial records for the children and that they had not been interred in any of the local public cemeteries. In her article she concludes that many of the children were buried in an unofficial graveyard at the rear of the former home. This small grassy space has been attended for decades by local people, who have planted roses and other flowers there, and put up a grotto in one corner.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:36 PM

At least I can get on with getting comfy for the England match in 10 mins.

After all, don't bother reading what I put. Just read what Joe Offer thinks I say. Joe, don't forget to put what I have to say about why so many of the poor buggers died in the first place. Golden statues and painted madonnas don't buy themselves...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:05 PM

Joe, the situation is developing and in a fluent state, Jim's contribution is perfectly relevant when taken in the context of the government inquire that is being set up after the Tuam revelations. This inquiry will cover all mother and baby homes and as such is perfectly relevant to this thread.

When you make a case this may well have been orderly burials in a proper concrete vault, re-read the Irish Times piece and pay attention to the eye witness account from one of the men who discovered the burial site in 1975, when playing there as a boy :

"There were skeletons thrown in there. They were all this way and that way. They weren't wrapped in anything, and there were no coffins,"

Which is at least an indication the situation is not that of an orderly burial vault with coffins 'placed' there.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:11 PM

Wikipedia tells me that in 2009, British author Martin Sixsmith wrote a book titled The Lost Child of Philomena Lee, about the forcible separation of a mother (Philomena Lee) and child (Michael A. Hess) by the nuns of an Irish convent during the 1950s, and the subsequent attempts of the mother and child to contact one another. The book was adapted into the 2013 film Philomena, starring Dame Judi Dench and Steve Coogan (as Sixsmith), and written by Coogan and Jeff Pope.

Has anybody read the book or seen the film?

All of these stories, not just the story of the Tuam home, have engendered all sorts of anti-Catholic diatribes all over the Internet, even here. The stories, for the most part, are all true - and they are indeed horrible stories. There's no doubt the Church was involved, and involved deeply in this scandal. But is the Church the only party to blame? The mother and baby homes and industrial schools were located all over Ireland. Some were owned by government entities (local or national), and I believe some were owned by the Catholic Church. Many were managed by Catholic religious orders, some by others. Were they completely staffed by nuns or brothers, or were there lay people on staff? Apparently, there were doctors and nurses on the staff or working as consultants for many of these institutions.

Some of the young people who went to these institutions were sent by courts and other government agencies, and some were sent by their own parents.

So there's no doubt that this was a horrible situation and that it was widespread, institutionalized cruelty. But who's to blame? Who's NOT to blame? Can you blame the Vatican and send UN representatives to arrest the Pope and lead him off in chains and neatly resolve the whole matter? Can you blame the bishop and the nun who offered to contribute to a memorial to these 706 children? [how appallingly shocking!!] If you blame "The Church," just exactly whom are you blaming? After all, almost everyone in Ireland was Catholic. All the priests and nuns came from Irish parents, not from the Vatican. All the doctors and nurses and judges and government officials and the people who signed the death certificates came from Irish parents. Now, there are a lot of people in Ireland who no longer belong to "The Church," but does that mean that they have no share in the blame for this and that it is only current members of "The Church" who deserve to be denounced?

Maybe we should blame England. I know a lot of Irish-born American priests and nuns who are now in their 60s to their 90s in age, and they like to blame England for everything that's wrong in Ireland.

But this happened in an Ireland that was newly free from English rule, and able finally to do things the way they should be done. This newly independent nation of Ireland had the chance to do things the right way - why didn't they?

Well, I don't know who's to blame. And before you enlightened British atheists go shouting about what right do I as an American Catholic to condemn the Irish people for all this, let me remind you that I'd rather join with the priest and accept that "times were different then." I know full well that my country still suffers from its history of racism - that the cost of racism will linger for centuries, even though "times were different then." I think we do need to study the atrocities of the past and learn from them. I see little value in placing blame for events that happened fifty years ago, or (in most situations) for making reparation payments to the descendants of the victims of such atrocities. The time for blame and the time for reparation is right after the event, not fifty years or a century later. But still, we must study these events honestly and learn from them, considering how easily we ourselves can be responsible for similar events in our own time.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:23 PM

well that seems to put a milder perspective on it than the initial , sensationalist reporting.
but it gives the dawkins followers [ or maybe he gleaned his wording from other atheist sites ] opportunity to attack the God they say they don't believe in.
there may well prove to be cause for condemnation, and maybe legal proceedings, but seems to me that the usual suspects are more concerned with the religious affiliation of any perpetrators than that they might be offenders, who happen to be catholic.
i'm not RC but I reckon that the many charitable causes that have come out of the church balance out well against whatever [genuine] faults there may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:41 PM

It always seemed odd to me that those who say they have "a firm belief that the undeveloped fetus and the unborn have same rights to those lucky to being born" do not treat these "potential living humans" with the same respect as infants lucky to have a birth. If so, would theynot be treated with the same burial respect? I suspect few (religious, pro-life pro-choice, or not) would condone or defend disposing of a full term born baby in a septic system, let alone seeing those from a "so-called religious order" possiblg doing it?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:48 PM

Thanks for pointing that out, Peter. I hadn't realized that today's Irish Times story had several pages I hadn't read. Note that the witness, Barry Sweeney, discovered the skeletons in 1975, when he was ten years old. He estimated that there were twenty skeletons in the container under the concrete lid.

Here's the Irish Times story of the interview of witness Barry Sweeney:

Sweeney was 10 in 1975, and the friend he was with on that day, Frannie Hopkins, was 12. They dropped down from the two-and-a-half-metre boundary wall as usual, into the part of the former grounds that Corless and local people believe is the unofficial burial place for those who died in the home. "We used to be in there playing regular. There was always this slab of concrete there," he says.
In his kitchen, Sweeney demonstrates the size of this concrete flag as he recalls it: it's an area a little bigger than his coffee table, about 120cm long and 60cm wide. He says he does not recall seeing any other similar flags in their many visits to the area.
Between them the boys levered up the slab. "There were skeletons thrown in there. They were all this way and that way. They weren't wrapped in anything, and there were no coffins," he says. "But there was no way there were 800 skeletons down that hole. Nothing like that number. I don't know where the papers got that." How many skeletons does he believe there were? "About 20."

Twenty skeletons. Not 796. "Thrown in there," "all this way and that way." Note that the institution closed in 1961, and years later a new housing estate and playground were built in its place.

I'm just wondering if perhaps these skeletons had been buried elsewhere on the property. Could it be that their graves were found years after the institution closed, and that in the process of preparing the property for development, the contents of these graves were consolidated by workmen into a septic tank or water tank that was buried on the property?

I'm just wondering. It's speculation, but it makes a lot more sense to me than the idea of 796 bodies intentionally dumped into a septic tank by wicked nuns with orders from the Vatican under guidance of their imaginary friend.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 06:25 PM

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say, Ed. If you Google anti-abortion burial, you'll find that at least in the U.S., anti-abortion activists make a big deal of burying the remains of fetuses they can get their hands on. Whether they do it out of respect or for propaganda purposes, is a matter of debate. I suppose it's like the people who are appalled that a bishop and a nun would offer to contribute to building a memorial at Tuam. Who has the propaganda rights to these remains?

Dealing with old graveyards brings up all sorts of questions. I live in the Sierra Nevada foothills, in the heart of the 1849 Gold Rush. There are old graveyards everywhere in this area, and most of them don't meet modern standards. I told you above about the overgrown graveyard next door to me on the grounds of a former state tuberculosis sanatorium. Two ridges south of me is the Greenwood Cemetery where the remains of Gold Rush songwriter John A. Stone are buried [he called himself "Old Put," but the gravestone calls him Joe Bowers]. My Catholic parish held title to an unregulated cemetery in the Gold Rush town of Foresthill, and I was on the parish council when we were tasked with the job of bringing the cemetery up to code. The Catholic church in Foresthill burned down in about 1950, I think. For years thereafter, people of all faiths in the community continued to bury their dead in the church graveyard, often without recording the burials and sometimes without asking permission. I think we finally ended up deeding the cemetery over to the county.

So, a ten-year-old kid found 20 skeletons in Tuam in 1975. It will certainly be interesting to watch as the truth of this story unfolds. Sure will be hard to sort the truth from the speculation, though.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:08 PM

An jnteresting read is:

"Ourselves Unborn: A History of the Fetus in Modern America By Sara Dubow"

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:11 PM

Has anybody in the Irish Catholic Church promised to trace all the living relatives of these dead children and give them a voice in what happens next?

...

Didn't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:31 PM

We should not shut down speculation on this or other tragedies. That is how the truth is buried..no pun intended. Tell people to shut up long enough and they have and they will. There will be all sorts of dead ends and conspiracies and coverups and lies and eventually through all this the truth will shine. We have to get used to asking for the truth and having some expectation that we will get it. This is a new concept for some of us...that the church could be forced to come clean on a number of things...even now you have a trail of clergy running behind the pope saying what the pope really meant to say. We have bishops and priests afraid to speak out on anything just about except gay marriage. We need to hear more from them. One got removed from his post for letting parents or godparents pour water over a baby's head in baptism and yet they can't demote a clerical liar or thief or abuser..well, that is fixing to change and not just because of a new pope..there is also a new laity, some of whom are just fixing for a fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:35 PM

burying the remains of fetuses they can get their hands on.

How, precisely, do they "get their hands on" them, Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,"Hidden behind"
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:58 PM

There remain two problems you don't address, Joe.
Firstly, the grassy plot is about 10 years square, 100 sq yds, which if divided into orderly burial plots allows for about 50 burials. Divide 796 by 50 and you get an overcrowding factor of 16. Each child has about 1 sq ft. That corresponds with the description of what must be little better than a charnel house now. Even London's plague pit was less crowded.
The second is how the kids got there. There is quite sufficient evidence to support a claim of institutionalised child abuse amounting to genocide of a minority, children born out of wedlock. It is consistent with the immorality of the Magdalen Laundries, moreover, and witnesses survive. The only question remaining, really is the extent across Ireland it was practiced in, and we alreay know three more convents are holding their hands up. How many more are still trying to brazen it out?
Go reread Matt 18 on those who deny the Kingdom of God to children. You differentiate between those directly and those indirectly responsible, their superiors: I don't think that's valid, as this convent was so close to the Cathedral, it must have been the closest Religious house of any, in plain sight across the racetrack. That takes the problem pretty high.
By comparison, the Belgian situation, although lesser, certainly reached to and saw the active participation of the Cardinal Nuncio, so I'm in no way minded to excuse these bosses either. And that means that however sainted the pew-fodder (pay, pray, obey...) the heirarchy itself is perverse to the core. I've seen them, holier-than-thou, hypocrites. At least I own those whose deaths in the domain I worked in may be vaguely attributable to me.

And that once more brings me back to something I commented on earlier. In Matt 5-8/9, Jesus expounds on his vision of the Church - it's one without heirarchy. Without buildings. Without half the paraphernalia imported from the ancient Greeks in the 10th-15th century by Aquinas above all else. Do you need these priests, or is your vocation strong enough to relate to God directly?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 09:04 PM

Greg, too precisely...

Antiabortionists are some of the most rabidly distasteful people I have ever encountered.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 09:47 PM

I am new to this debate,
I feel that Joe's Jim's &. Musket's and others and contribution to the debate is informative and worthwhile although nitpicking through frustration, but a valuable insight to other's ways of looking at the problems of humanity .
I recognise that the fact that a great number of the Roman Catholic church members are living up to Christian values while I get the impression that the heirarchy are only paying lips service to those values. I also get that impression from Joe's assessment of the results of this
The reformation and the division of Ireland are testimony to this. The north of Ireland knew of the failings of the Catholic church and wanted no part of it and resisted the amalgamation with a Roman Catholic state. Many people who are part of the united Ireland movement in my opinion do not want to recognise this concept.

To me this thread is a debate about whether the Roman Catholic Church world wide has been taken over by Zealots of the "Church" rather than the Christian message that the church was founded on. The concept that each division of the church did its own thing seems to me to support the theory that on the ground the end result justifies the means and demeans the Christian message .
The concept that unmarried mothers have to be hidden away and their children are uncared for is undestandable in eyes of those who are "holier than thou" but not in eyes of those who accept humanity in all its forms & Christianity and its basic message of caring for others.
The reference to the newcomer to reformed thought "Dawkins," is a potshot at the messeanger who appears to have written down the thoughts of the reformed churches since the reformation . Nothing new from him,. just a rehash of old statements made by the reformed churches. The quotes from Dawkins are all the things that the reformed churches have been saying since the reformation rehashed and put into print.
The good that the Roman Catholic Church members on the ground have and are doing is and has been undermined by people who believe in the concept of the "true religion" and not the message of Christianity. To me the Roman Catholic church has lost the the way , the saving of souls does not in any way compensate for the abandonment of the living

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 10:45 PM

Kenny, you say the Dawkins propaganda against the Catholic Church is "a rehash of old statements made by the reformed churches." Since Dawkins is a born-again atheist, he might not be very happy with your comparison. I get the impression that the Dawkins stuff is very similar to the comic book style anti-Catholic tracts from born-again Chick Publications, which feature cartoons of priests and nuns doing horrible things to righteous Christians. These tracts were very popular in the 1980s. They seem less popular now, but they're still in print.

I think we're probably better off giving people the benefit of the doubt, and accepting the fact that people are people - usually flawed, but probably not half as bad as we think they are.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 11:29 PM

yes perhaps they were like Michael caine in cider house rules - but I doubt it joe. those kids were starved, and they were in an institution with bad track record.

nice nuns like the ones that you met in ireland are not a new thing. they've always been nice. they were nice to me when I was a kid. later in life I gigged their retirement homes - they were never less than lovely to me.

but I think you have to recognise that with presentnews from Tuam - you appear to these people as defending the indefensible. its like the war crimes in japan, after the war. innocent people are going to get hanged in the present climate. its unavoidable.

don't hurt yourself defending these men,

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 11:40 PM

those kids were starved, and they were in an institution with bad track record.

No question about it, Al. It's becoming evident that the speculation about 796 bodies in a septic tank is grossly incorrect, but it's clear that the Tuam mother-baby home was a bad place, and that children died unnecessarily because of poor conditions there and at other institutions. Still, I think that a balanced, truthful study of all such institutions is warranted. One would think that there must have been some institutions where unwed Irish mothers were treated well. I haven't found any - but of course, those aren't the ones that get in the news...or the Internet forums.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 03:46 AM

"But no, this is a report about another home in another county. "
I posted a letter from the animated and extremely angry correspondence that is taking place in the Irish Times at present on the Tuam Home - the correspondent claims, I believe quite rightly, that the events in both Galway and Tuam were examples of how many of these homes operated, with a total disregard for the well-being of the children in their care - this was certainly the case in the Magdalene Laundries and the Industrial Schools.
Much of the brutality was a judgement on and punishment for the "sins" of people who stepped outside the strict moral codes of the Church - the two Magdalene sisters who were interviewed last year summed that judgement up perfectly with their "the sweepings of the street".
It was not confined to Tuam or Bessborough, it was a general judgement on the morality of all.
Of course there are good nuns and priests; Ireland is the most charitable country I have even encountered, and many of those charities, though sometimes patronising, are run by the church, or by dedicated religion-driven people - the world would be a much worse place without them.
My attitude towards the church and religion is that it should be confined, by law, to spiritual matters alone; no church should have active influence in either the running of any country or the education of children.
Religion, like politics, should be a personal choice made by sentient human beings, not drummed into childrens minds from birth as fact - that is the "brainwashing" aspect of all religions, summed up perfectly in the Jesuit boast.
The Church, AS AN INSTITUTION , has proved itself totally untrustworthy when it comes to the education of children, and religion is a speculative belief that relies entirely on blind trust (faith) and obedience, rather than factual evidence, so no individual body should ever have the right to teach it to children as fact (especially when it comes under so many competitive and conflicting 'brand labels'.
The root cause of many of the world's problems today are religion and Church inspired (go and look at some of the Muslim hate threads if you doubt this).
The Tuam affair has been appallingly sidetracked by the 'septic tank' issue - a product of headline grabbing sensationalism by our 'free press'.
Catherine Corless's interview in The Irish Times shows how her researches at Tuam have been distorted out of all proportion by many of the 'bumfodder' newspapers, in order to increase sales.
I raised the matter only in response to your appalling suggestion that any place designed to dump our shit is a suitable one to dispose of maltreated children - it reduced considerably the respect I otherwise hold for you, in spite of past differences.
Jim Carroll

This is one of the more intelligent and thought-provoking contributions to the manner in which the children were buried - from the Irish Times letter page yesterday.

"Sir, - The media should be very wary of using the term "septic tank" to describe the structure containing the child burials at St Mary's mother-and-child home at Tuam. It is offensive and hurtful to all those involved. The structure as described is much more likely to be a shaft burial vault, a common method of burial used in the recent past and still used today in many part of Europe.
In the 19th century, deep brick-lined shafts were constructed and covered with a large slab which often doubled as a flatly laid headstone. These were common in 19th-century urban cemeteries. The stone could be temporarily removed to allow the addition of additional coffined burials to the vault. Such tombs are still used extensively in Mediterranean countries. I recently saw such structures being constructed in a churchyard in Croatia. The shaft was made of concrete blocks, plastered internally and roofed with large concrete slabs.
Many maternity hospitals in Ireland had a communal burial place for stillborn children or those who died soon after birth. These were sometimes in a nearby graveyard but more often in a special area within the grounds of the hospital. It was not a tradition until very recently to return such deceased infants to parents for taking back to family burial places.
Until proved otherwise, the burial structure at Tuam should be described as a communal burial vault. - Yours, etc,
Dr FINBAR McCORMICK School of Geography, Archaeology and Palaeoecology, University Road, Queen's University, Belfast."

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:24 AM

Are you sure Ireland went from UK rule to self determination? It has always been my observation that it went from joint UK / Vatican rule to just Vatican.

I wondered how long before superstitious nutters started blaming Darwin and his "followers." Rational people don't need to follow and obey fuck all. Least of all a Prof who just happens to speak sense.

This is nothing to do with imaginary friends. It is, as we see with bastardisation of Islam these days, criminals using fear and superstition of ill educated and vulnerable people to allow them to get away with their awful crimes against humanity.

Follow the fucking money if you want to know why.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:12 AM

"It has always been my observation that it went from joint UK / Vatican rule to just Vatican."
The clerical abuse scandal has all but put paid to that situation.
The Church was forced to issue threats of excommunication to politicians who voted in favour of the new (insipid) laws on pregnancy termination.
Fifteen years ago no such bill would have been possible and even today it took the death of a young woman due to religion influenced practices to produce the compromises.
Going - going - but not yet gone!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:29 AM

It appears to me that any investigation as to the nature of the deaths of the children, or if and to whom blame is to be attributed, is being superseded by the screeching of vultures perched on the corpse of religion.

Joe is right, there is good and bad everywhere, and historically there has been a lot of bad in all organised religion, but taken as a piece, Christianity has contributed greatly to the health and wellbeing of society.
A purely secular society would be another step on the road to the deification of "self" which we see looming larger every day.

I sense the old political agenda at work; as I remarked earlier the "liberals" real target is the Church and its destruction....the last bastion of conservatism.
I am a socialist but it has become obvious to me that most conservative social values are beneficial and indeed necessary in todays rootless and hopeless society.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:33 AM

Threatening politicians with excommunication for exercising the will of the people and human rights...

Why would the politicians be concerned about that? I hear rational people ask..

Are you sure church membership is a take it or leave it adult choice Joe?

Joe asked if anyone had read the book or seen the film Philomena. I had already used it to argue my point. Are you sure you have read it Joe? Did you not feel Philomena was vulnerable when in light of the evidence, the callous disregard for her and her son and all the rotten rest of it, she still had misgivings about questioning the Catholic Church and its works?

The point, especially the film point Steve Coogan made, was the hold the church has on people allows such things to happen. Brainwashing from birth, small children forced to wear brides costumes in a grotesque ritual, mea culpa, Papal infallibility....

Ordinary people who choose to follow the faith should be asking why their faith is being distorted by criminals, even now. I notice the ex head Catholic in Scotland has been whisked off to somewhere abroad where the police here can't find him, for fucks sake, and that was just covering up for abusing boys, a simple sin by their standards. That he was threatening the government over gay marriage just before being exposed was worthy of a grim smile on the part of decent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:59 AM

"...is being superseded by the screeching of vultures perched on the corpse of religion."

So religion is dead already then? Crikey.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:05 AM

R I P


But ~~~

where?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,"Hidden behind"
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 09:44 AM

Joe, whether or not those 796 are all on that lot or not is relatively immaterial. It's how they died which isn't. It's that wherever they are, they where treated as rubbish - if not, they'd have marked graves. Those 796 are real deaths, because they have real death certificates showing real abuse.
And the real Church shows a real lack of engagement in doing anything about it. Which I find really disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 09:46 AM

Bigotry makes strange bedfellows....

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 10:43 AM

There's a former mental hospital 20 miles away that has a field of unmarked graves. Many prisons,including some in Britain and Ireland; many concentration camps, including some in South Africa; many prison camps, including some scattered across the Pacific -- and don't forget that even today in some areas of Europe bones are removed from a grave in a churchyard and the grave reused.

The bones of babies and children decompose faster than those of adult (soil, weather, etc. being equal). But everyone who has ever lived, is living, or will live will decompose and someone else will be buried in their dust.

Meménto, homo, quia pulvis es, et in púlverem revertéris.

Or to put it another way:

         Reincarnation
            Wallace Mcrae
   
    "What does Reincarnation mean?"
    A cowpoke asked his friend.
    His pal replied, "It happens when
    Yer life has reached its end.
    They comb yer hair, and warsh yer neck,
    And clean yer fingernails,
    And lay you in a padded box
    Away from life's travails."

    "The box and you goes in a hole,
    That's been dug into the ground.
    Reincarnation starts in when
    Yore planted 'neath a mound.
    Them clods melt down, just like yer box,
    And you who is inside.
    And then yore just beginnin' on
    Yer transformation ride."

    "In a while, the grass'll grow
    Upon yer rendered mound.
    Till some day on yer moldered grave
    A lonely flower is found.
    And say a hoss should wander by
    And graze upon this flower
    That once wuz you, but now's become
    Yer vegetative bower."

    "The posy that the hoss done ate
    Up, with his other feed,
    Makes bone, and fat, and muscle
    Essential to the steed,
    But some is left that he can't use
    And so it passes through,
    And finally lays upon the ground
    This thing, that once wuz you."

    "Then say, by chance, I wanders by
    And sees this upon the ground,
    And I ponders, and I wonders at,
    This object that I found.
    I thinks of reincarnation,
    Of life and death, and such,
    And come away concludin': 'Slim,
    You ain't changed, all that much.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:11 AM

"I don't quite understand what you're trying to say, Ed. If you Google anti-abortion burial, you'll find that at least in the U.S., anti-abortion activists make a big deal of burying the remains of fetuses they can get their hands on. Whether they do it out of respect or for propaganda purposes, is a matter of debate. "

Joe O, my comment was not focused on the organized anti abortion movement, which I would expect to be extreme and political. I was reflecting more on attitudes to the treatment of the remains of the unborn in the general population.

An example of mixed messages is the public displays of a number of fetuses in bottles by a RC university (the Loyola Specimens) in a human development display.

Personally, I find it distasteful to publically display any human remains, in a museum, or elsewhere. Even open caskets at wakes are a "turn off" to me.

The link below provides an interesting historical perspective on religious attitudes towards the unborn.

RC history and abortion debate 

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:19 AM

Here is the loyola fetus display information-it was refered to in the book link I provided yesterday. I realize it was awhile ago, and only one incident. But, as an example of attitudes, have we moved away from the sentiment that fueled this display that much since then? Maybe yes, possibly no.


loyola fetus display 

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 12:25 PM

"UK hospitals burn 10,000 stillborn an foetal babies amongst the rubbish"

The Telegraph.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 12:33 PM

Joe, every religious group exercises "brainwashing" upon its children.
Certainly the Catechism of the RC falls into this bracket.
The Profession of the Faith
The Celebration of the Christian Mystery
Life in Christ
Christian Prayer
I remember the Catholic children being prepared for Communion and their examination by the brothers and priests in the Archdiocese of Santa Fe. As children of Protestant parents (or agnostic parents, in my case) we were strongly aware of the separation that developed, two "cultures" with separate schools and later would meet in business but not socially. Of course there also was a racial element in this city, the one being Hispanic, the other composed of "Anglos"

This separation is still there although it has been moderated; here in Calgary, as in Santa Fe, there are two school systems (both public in Calgary), one for Catholics, the other for protestants and others. The children meet at inter-school events, but otherwise have little interaction until they are adult.

This has nothing to do with the horrors of the Irish cistern, in which case I largely agree with Joe. Look into the Nineteenth century records in the U. S. and Canada, not easy to find, but comparable cases of mass neglect are evident.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 01:25 PM

Just some developments:

The focus seems to be shifting from Tuam and the alleged 'septic tank' burials to the wider issue of mother and baby homes. Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has called for a full inquiry, saying that if there was anything wrong in Tuam, it is likely the same problems existed in the homes. In this light it has been in the news that while the mortality rates in Tuam were atrocious (over 30%), those in some other homes like Bessborough were much worse (50% and over).

The situation surrounding the burials is developing as well as the possibility of burials going back as far as the famine (many mother and baby homes occupied former workhouses) is being looked at.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 01:49 PM

Recommended reading for many of you good people John B Keane's the Bodhran Maker. A short and very powerful view of the power of the church.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 02:43 PM

Whilst religious leaders line up to defend the past, The Dept of Health in The UK is agonising over whether to give "dead person" status to aborted foetus parts.

It puts it in perspective. This thread is about real people up to nine years old and at the same time, the medical world is discussing what was previously regarded as pathology waste in its other status as a life that wasn't.

I find it difficult to reconcile the two moral approaches. I am involved in the latter and am helping with the guidelines. Whilst working on it this afternoon, (including watching a documentary from the other month) I wondered how our ethics dilemma would approach the practice of throwing babies and children you had starved into a cesspit.

The more I think, the more I condemn the actions of these wicked animals. Anybody who seeks to "put it in perspective" or "not judge the actions of recent memory" may wish to think on the enormity of the mass grave and crimes against humanity. Whilst those who find parallels with the foetal remains debate possibly have the excuse of not understanding what they read.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 02:51 PM

Then we will all 'ave 'et up thee...

But we still wait for any kind of indication from Petitbonum (the Roman camp) that they take the point that this abuse muct be nailed internally as well as externally. They're the only people who really know, and must require those inside their number who do to cease and desist from this schtay schtumm attitude and tell us, honesty 101. Or are they waiting for the evidence to be dragged out kicking and screaming?

To some extent I'm starting to think this is actually a good thing. It'll force the entire faith to get away from the ineffeable and get effing real. There is a reality to practical faith, and if the Churches start to demonstrate that they're something more than Mothers Unions, some good may yet come from it. It's the opportunity to knock turn holy dogma into holey dogma, to get away from Rules and into truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:05 PM

Look into the Nineteenth century records in the U. S. and Canada, not easy to find, but comparable cases of mass neglect are evident.

Oh well, what the nuns did is perfectyly OK, then, innit? Even if it was dona in the mid-20th Century.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:04 PM

Gee, I took the day off and went to Mass in the morning and a singaround in afternoon. I wondered how much there would be to respond to.
Jim Carroll: I raised the matter only in response to your appalling suggestion that any place designed to dump our shit is a suitable one to dispose of maltreated children - it reduced considerably the respect I otherwise hold for you, in spite of past differences.
Jim, the septic tank at my house looks almost exactly like the concrete vaults that I have seen coffins lowered into many, many times. If you build it and call it a "concrete vault," then it can be used as either a burial vault or a septic tank. If you need screws for a project, you don't necessarily have to have separate screws for sewage projects - you may well be able to use the same screws one might use to build a coffin....except for the fact that Jim Carroll might be offended.
But the fact of the matter is that a concrete vault, is a concrete vault - and it may be used for many purposes.
As I said above, however, I suspect that the twenty skeletons may indeed have been buried somewhere on the property, and then reburied later in an empty tank on the property that may well have been a septic or water tank. The witness's words - "Thrown in there," "all this way and that way" - appear to describe what might happen with remains dug up from other locations and reburied. Otherwise, bodies would have been put in a mass grave individually, and would have remained more intact.
Jim, if you call the vault a septic tank (and especially if it has been used as a septic tank), then the idea of its use for the bodies is indeed appalling. But if you call the vault a vault and don't build it for a specific use, what's the difference?
That's information we just don't know yet, so getting appalled is rather silly.
But my guess it that the remains might well indeed have been found in graves and then dumped in a septic tank in the process of clearing the property for redevelopment - and that would indeed have been appalling, even if it were done by workmen after the nuns were long gone and thereby depriving somebody of an opportunity for anti-religious propaganda.
But that's information we just don't know yet, so getting appalled is rather silly.

---

Musket says: Are you sure Ireland went from UK rule to self determination? It has always been my observation that it went from joint UK / Vatican rule to just Vatican.
I think you're talking your party line, Musket, and I really don;t think you know what you're talking about. I am seminary-educated, and I've been a Catholic all my life, and I have studied Catholic Church politics all my life. And what I have to say about Catholic Church politics is not complimentary, and it is disturbing to many Catholics I've explained things to. But that fact that what I say is disturbing and not seen as complimentary for the most part, is an indication that what I have to say may be accurate.
There are national Catholic Church structures in all nations where there are significant numbers of Catholics. For the most part, these national churches are loose affiliations of dioceses, and they try to work with the Vatican. But in some nations, the national churches are far stronger, closed operations - and these national churches are only very loosely controlled by the Vatican. These churches stick very close to doctrine, but doctrine really hasn't changed much since the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. But other than adhering strictly to the Nicene Creed of 325, these national churches are mostly on their own. The three strongest national churches I know of, are Poland, the Philippines, and Ireland - and the Catholic Church in Ireland is by far the strongest national church within the entire Catholic Church. The Vatican just throws up its hands and lets Ireland do what Ireland does. Ireland has the most severe variety of Catholicism there is - but it's all Irish. I know Irish priests who tell me that the severity came from Jansenists that the British rulers imported from northern France to staff the world's largest seminary, built by the English for the Catholics of Ireland. Don't know if I buy that story. As far as I can see, the Irish Catholic Church has been completely controlled by Irish-born priests and bishops and nuns who were born and raised by Irish Irish parents, not by the Vatican. Now, Musket's propaganda may have taught him that all Catholics march in lockstep with the Vatican, but that rigidity is simply not true. The organization is much looser and much more decentralized. And it had almost no control over Ireland at all until international reaction to the recent scandals forced Benedict XVI to take at least partial control over the Catholic hierarchy in Ireland. But until then, Ireland was a closed shop.
I have seen some good in Catholic Church in Ireland, particularly in the Sisters of Mercy convents I visited; but my overall impression of Irish Catholicism is very negative. It's dominated by angry, severe people that even the priests are afraid of. The Catholic Church in Ireland is sick - there's no doubt about it.
But it's controlled by the Irish, not by the Vatican.

And it's the Irish Catholic Church that must be held to answer for scandals like Tuam, not the Vatican.

---

Ed T says he was reflecting more on attitudes to the treatment of the remains of the unborn in the general population.
I tend to agree with you, Ed. Display of human remains, whether they died before birth or afterwards, must be done only if absolutely necessary and only with absolute dignity. This also applies to the mummies of ancient Egyptians and the remains of aboriginal peoples. In some ways, I'd be just as happy seeing replicas in museums in most circumstances; but my seeing these remains allows me to honor them, even if other museum visitors don't view these remains as sacred.
Auschwitz has displays of entire rooms of human hair and human teeth - seeing those is an experience I'll ponder for the rest of my life.

---

Q says: Joe, every religious group exercises "brainwashing" upon its children.
Certainly the Catechism of the RC falls into this bracket.
The Profession of the Faith, The Celebration of the Christian Mystery, Life in Christ, Christian Prayer (the four main divisions of the Catechism of the Catholic Church)
Q, "brainwashing" is a propaganda word. My understanding is that it became popular during the early years of the Cold War, when we were told the godless Communists forced Communist ideology on their helpless victims, so that the victims would be able to think nothing other than what the Communists wanted them to think.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church was published in the early 1990s as the successor to the 16th-century Catechism of Trent. It is a fairly comprehensive statement of the beliefs and practices and traditions of the Catholic Church. It is not meant for children, and it is not meant to be memorized, as the 20th-century American Baltimore Catechism was used until about 1970.
Now, the born-again atheist propagandists will tell you that if I dare to teach my children about the beliefs and practices and traditions of my church and if I expose my children to church rituals, I am "brainwashing" them. Well, I mustn't have been very effective at brainwashing then. I sent my three children to Catholic elementary and high schools. I think they got an excellent education. They're all good people and they believe in music and in the Democratic Party, but they have rarely set foot in a church since they finished school.
I've been a Catholic religious education teacher almost continuously since 1966, and this is what happened to my own children. Did I brainwash them?

I'm sorry, but all of that propaganda about brainwashing is simply that - propaganda - just like the propaganda we heard about the Soviets brainwashing their "victims."

---

"Hidden Behind" says: And the real Church shows a real lack of engagement in doing anything about it. Which I find really disgusting.
In response to that, allow me to refer you to part of a post above from Peter Laban:

The focus seems to be shifting from Tuam and the alleged 'septic tank' burials to the wider issue of mother and baby homes. Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has called for a full inquiry, saying that if there was anything wrong in Tuam, it is likely the same problems existed in the homes. In this light it has been in the news that while the mortality rates in Tuam were atrocious (over 30%), those in some other homes like Bessborough were much worse (50% and over).

Archbishop Diarmuid Martin is the Archbishop of Dublin and Primate of Ireland. He's one Irish bishop who served most of his career to the Vatican. He was sent to Dublin in 2003 and became Archbishop on his predecessor's resignation in 2004. He's been tasked with cleaning up the mess, and it seems he's generally been doing a pretty good job of it.

There's no doubt that the Catholic Church of Ireland needs to be cleaned up. The industrial schools and mother-and-baby homes and Magdalene laundries, as well as the molestation of children by priests, are horrible, horrible offenses.

-Joe Offer-

P.S. Somebody above asked if I had seen the movie or read the book Philomena. No, I haven't. I was wondering if I should.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:18 PM

Post from Greg F:

Thread #154680   Message #3631487
Posted By: Greg F.
08-Jun-14 - 05:05 PM
Thread Name: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns


Look into the Nineteenth century records in the U. S. and Canada, not easy to find, but comparable cases of mass neglect are evident.

Oh well, what the nuns did is perfectyly OK, then, innit? Even if it was dona in the mid-20th Century.

---


...and what, Greg, is the value of the post like that? It's a bigoted insult, that's what it is.

Of course all such atrocities are wrong, no matter who commits them. All of them must be studied and responded to, not just those committed by people of religions or nationalities you don't happen to like.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 01:26 AM

I suppose when you set yourself up on these threads to defend the metaphysical, it becomes incumbent upon you to defend the indefensible too when coming from the same source.

You know, even if you took the emotive imagery of the septic tank away, the errr.. rather high mortality rate of children doesn't show this particular catholic public service in a good light. The lies and cover ups around it seem to drift their way up the hierarchy of the organisation. The church tells people they go to a mythical heaven and having got people to believe it, say that babies not baptised don't get to join them there. You don't need to invoke the Cold War to invoke brainwashing as a concept.

To a spaceman looking in, or a person devoid of superstition for that matter, it doesn't seem the sort of thing to try and defend.

These babies and small children died at a time most Mudcat members were babies and small children.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 01:51 AM

There's no defense, Musket - and apparently Tuam was not the worst of these mother-and-baby homes. I wouldn't dream of attempting to defend these homes, or the industrial schools, or the Magdalene Laundries - or the priests who molested children.

But I do believe that the entire situation must be studied methodically and honestly. There's no room here for hysteria. We need to have a real understanding of the situation. We need to know what really happened. Trumped-up charges of 796 bodies dumped into a septic tank, simply serve to obscure the important truth that these institutions systematically mistreated children.

On the Mother/Baby Home Research group on Facebook, Catherine Corless said she did her research and collected death certificates so a memorial could be erected at the graveyard at the Tuam home, listing the names of the children who were buried there. So, it appears that there is a graveyard, but the graves are unmarked or inadequately marked.

Corless did a lot of good research into the story of the Tuam home and conditions there, and it appears that conditions were certainly poor. If you have Facebook this link should get you to the group. Take the time to read what Corless wrote.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 03:42 AM

"Jim, the septic tank at my house looks almost exactly like the concrete vaults that I have seen coffins"
Joe,
Personally, I don't give a rat's arse what happens too my remains when I shuffle off this mortal coil - I once suggested to our publican/undertaker that I would be happy to be cremated and my ashes placed in one of his ashtrays and put on his windowsill to enable me to spend more time in a place that gave me a great deal of pleasure in life.
That apparently is not the case with you Catholics, who make far more of death and burial than I do.
P placing children, in death, in shit-holes (no matter how magnificent), after they have suffered extreme abuse and neglect throughout their short lives, seems to me the final indignity - the equivalent of spitting on their maltreated corpses for the "sinners" they were.
I do not not "call these vaults" anything; I took the trouble to point out the historical possibilities of what they might be.
One of the suggestions made regarding Tuam is that the some of the bodies may not have been inmates of the home, but Famine victims from earlier times.
Hopefully, this is the case, even thought the Famine carries with it examples of hatred and neglect to possible genocidal proportions - this also has been under examination as part of our history over the lat decade.
All of these examples of extreme cruelty and neglect: clerical child abuse and, the Magdalene Laundries, the brutality of the industrial schools and now emerging as an issue, the sale of illegitimate children to wealthy Americans following the Philomena Lee film; raise the one question - the suitability of the church as an influential body to be given access to and influence over children, and people's lives in general.
A new film, 'Jimmy's hall', raises the a question that interests me deeply; that of the influence of the church over the music I have been involved with for most of my life.
Don't you dare attribute a "project" to me - I am not a 'practicing' atheist any more than I am a practicing believer.
I will comment on these incidents as they come up as a 'practicing' humanitarian who finds the church very much wanting in this matter - that is the extent of my "project" - nothing more.
Would that your church had more humanitarians honest enough to examine their own sordid past, without feeling the need to make excuses and point the finger elsewhere.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 09:13 AM

I am reasonable Joe. I do not see this as an opportunity to rant against churches, despite your thoughts otherwise.

I am enraged by the early attempts by the church authorities to play it down until they realised it wouldn't stay quiet. Then and only then, contrition and accepting historic responsibility. Last year for a short while, I was interim CEO of a hospital trust. Our people uncovered a mistake, not a planned crime, but a mistake that was made 20 years ago and had a catastrophic effect on a patient. We gave a press conference, I apologised on behalf of the trust and the poor governance, one off wrong clinical decision and lack of candour on the part of those responsible at the time.

I expect nothing less from those giving the catholic "brand licence" now concerning institutions in their name then. Candour and regret may not bring people back, but it helps the healing process.

In the meantime, ask not why babies were thrown into a cesspit (sub human in the eyes of the nuns is the best suggestion to date) but how living children and babies came to die in such huge numbers at a time when social care, welfare and healthcare was universally available. Ask what doctrine was invoked in order to sustain such sub standard care? Question how that doctrine has altered. Has it? How? What is in place to prevent this happening in a church mission in deepest Amazon? Deepest County Clare for that matter...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 10:34 AM

and what, Greg, is the value of the post like that?

Well, Joe, what was the point of Q's lame apologia that preceeded it?

It's a bigoted insult, that's what it is.

Now you're just being silly, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: BrendanB
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 01:17 PM

I find it odd that you should single out the NHS as a model of transparency, Musket.   I have lost count of the number of whistleblowers in the NHS who have been gagged, lost their jobs etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 02:11 PM

The NHS is the most transparent public service we have. It also has the most number of whistle blowers, things going wrong and things going right, judging by scale and public expectation.

I'm surprised too. Surprised that you look at one less than ideal aspect of The NHS and compare it to another. Or bluntly, an example (in my case) of duty of candour being used and other examples of where it went wrong. Out of interest, I am not an NHS professional, and most of my dipping in has been to try and eradicate exactly the type of thing you refer to. If I ran my companies in the way the NHS is run in some quarters we would have gone bust years ago. Tell you what though, when I chaired a trust I was rightly proud of our 6,000 staff and the million patients a year we treated didn't mind having the best healthcare system there is either. And yes, the chief executive I appointed was tasked to remove or retrain all aspects of bullying and coercion. Did we manage it? Dunno. But at least we were happy that we were a different NHS to the Daily M*il NHS. Mrs Musket saves lives for a living, as a consultant surgeon specialising in types of cancer. That's The NHS and as an outsider privileged to help improve it, I am rather proud of the jewel in The UK crown. Just as millions of others are. My recent caretaker role gave me a sense of pride for that matter. Proud of even those who moan. I moan too. I moan about it being physically impossible to carry out the will of government and the expectation of the people at the same time.

We have at least 32 axe or other sharp implement murderers. 293 working as prostitutes on the side, 1,673 people committing fraud, 184 paedophiles, 38,093 users of heroin. Etc. (Average take of that sample size.)

Or in other words, 1.3 million people providing over a million patient decisions every 36 hours. I can find examples of good and bad.

Tell you what though... The ones caught starving babies and murdering them, Beverley Allett being the most well known example. Do you know where they are? Prison.

Right. Back to throwing baby bodies into cesspits and not acknowledging accountability.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 02:12 PM

Joe, children in the Catholic faith in Santa Fe were taught a catechism, which they had to memorize before or shortly after their first communion. The Franciscan brothers of the archdiocese were the usual teachers, whether this was the "Baltimore" catechism or other, I don't know. I do remember that the children dressed for their examinations and communions, boys in white shirt and black pants and girls in fancy little dresses made or bought for the occasion. The situation probably is different today.

Parents, regardless of their faiths, who teach religious conformity to their children, are brainwashing them; there may be other terms, but I believe that the term is applicable.

Finally, I made no apologia for the Irish situation, I was pointing out that similar examples of mistreatment that we would not countenance today existed elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 02:55 PM

"children in the Catholic faith in Santa Fe were taught a catechism, which they had to memorize before or shortly after their first communion."
Even having never attended a Catholic School, I could recite my catechism before I could my times tables - I think I probably still can seven decades later.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: BrendanB
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 03:17 PM

I rather think you have made an important point Musket. I agree that the NHS is a wonderful organization. A vast majority of those who work for the NHS can take pride in what they do. But there are some who besmirch the name of the NHS by their actions. I can see that. Why can you not recognise that there is a parallel with the Catholic church? No-one is trying to defend what appears to have happened in Tuam, but you appear to have judged all of Catholicism and found it guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 03:32 PM

Actually Brendan, to be fair, others have said that. I said that until and unless local church leaders are called to account by their church, the rank and file are being let down by the institution. The church was the driving ethic of this type of home and unless the church can open up and satisfy society that it deserves to be let loose on vulnerable people in future, it's privilege remains in question.

The new Pope is a breath of fresh air and means well. But even a religion based on elevating a leader to infallible status, he still has people under him who are rightly afraid of their past roles on condoning awful things, and are fearful of openness. He needs to be inwardly effective in the same way as he is outwardly a good man. Granted, a good man who can't denounce bigotry, misogyny and homophobia in his ranks but I genuinely do see his dilemma. Ditto Archbishop of Canterbury and Anglican practices world wide.

Our shared comparison, NHS is a good example itself. In trying to improve matters, one weapon I use without shame is telling the good that the bad are letting them down as well as themselves. Dr Bloggs isn't uncaring, The NHS is uncaring until Dr Bloggs is dealt with. Peer pressure driving his standards upwards being a win win for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 09:13 PM

So, it's now the end of the day on 9 June. This episode began with a story in the Irish Times dated 4 June. Here's a line from the beginning of that article:

The revelations that 796 babies died in a mother and baby home in Tuam from 1925 to 1961 and were possibly buried in a septic tank has put renewed focus on such homes.

Headlines all over the world screamed about 800 babies found in a septic tank. Here are some cited in an article published 7 June in the Irish Times:

• "Tell us the truth about the children dumped in Galway's mass graves" – The Guardian.
• "Bodies of 800 babies, long-dead, found in septic tank at former Irish home for unwed mothers" – The Washington Post.
• "Nearly 800 dead babies found in septic tank in Ireland" – Al Jazeera.
• "800 skeletons of babies found inside tank at former Irish home for unwed mothers" – New York Daily News.
• "Almost 800 'forgotten' Irish children dumped in septic tank mass grave at Catholic home" – ABC News, Australia.

The Irish Times article reports details of the research of Catherine Corless. Corless "concludes that many of the children were buried in an unofficial graveyard at the rear of the former home. This small grassy space has been attended for decades by local people, who have planted roses and other flowers there, and put up a grotto in one corner." Reading further in the story, it appears that in 1975, two boys found perhaps 20 skeletons in a concrete vault that may have been a septic tank. That story has continued to grow over the week, as you can see in this thread - with especially entertaining sputtering from MtheGM, Musket, and Jim Carroll (now Mr. Carroll is incensed that I would accuse him of working on a hypothetical "project" with screws and a screwdriver).

Apparently, a similar situation was reported in the 2009 Philomena book and subsequent 2013 movie so the story is widely known and not really a new one. A number of Catholic Officials have made statements of concern about the mother and baby homes and the industrial schools. These matters are under intense study, and rightly so. And yes, they are serious situations.

I have yet to see any statement from a Catholic bishop denying what happened in the homes and industrial schools and Magdalene Laundries. Maybe there were denials in past years, but certainly not recently. I suppose somebody will find an old priest or nun somewhere who's willing to give a denial, but there is widespread knowledge of these stories among Catholics by now, and there is widespread concern.

Despite what the screamers will continue to allege, nobody's denying that these things happened.

And you have never, ever heard a word of denial from me. I think I know my Catholic faith very well, since I have a degree in Theology from a Catholic seminary. Nothing in the teachings of the Catholic Church justifies conduct like the treatment children and others received in the industrial schools, mother and baby homes, and Magdalene Laundries - but yet this institutionalized cruelty happened, under the auspices of my Catholic Church. It is a matter of great concern to me. A large number of my fellow Catholics systematically betrayed the principles of the faith they claimed to profess. And that is a horrible shame.

Still, the story of 800 babies in a septic tank is untrue. Maybe twenty, but we still don't even know that for a fact. The Gardai is conducting an investigation of the graves at Tuam. Maybe we'll know the truth soon. (click).

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 10:17 PM

I'm so relieved to hear, Joe, that it was "only" 20 children in the septic tank and the rest that were starved to death are in unmarked graves. Good God, man, have you no sense of decency?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 11:31 PM

I thought cardinal brady was primate of all ireland..and he is not.popular with abuse survivors...

A report from a medical. Examiner is coming out..babies with green diarrhea and bad lesions..he sacked the matron, got the place put in order and i think deaths.went to about two percent. In one of these places girls cut lawns with scissors...provably as their babies suffered. One of the worst things is they gave birth with no anesthesia and if they were torn got no stitches. It was a terribly poor country but things did not have to be sadistic. I still say track how money was spent. Where did it go..i doubt it was all spent on the nuns and mothers and babies.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 02:31 AM

You're right, mg. Sean Cardinal Brady is the current Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland. Diarmuid Martin is the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin and Primate of Ireland (but not ALL Ireland). Go figure. My understanding is that Martin's a pretty good guy. Don't know about Brady. Here's a Wikipedia article that explains the Primacy of Ireland. No wonder the Vatican bureaucrats throw up their hands in frustration when they have to deal with the Irish Catholic Church.

Jim Carroll reported a green diarrhea story above. That incident happened at a mother-and-baby home in Cork in the 1940s, apparently caused by an outbreak of staphylococcus infection.

Greg F. - Whether I have any sense of decency or not, I want to know the truth before I make any judgment. We don't actually know if there were 20 children's bodies in a septic tank. And we don't know how they got there. If other children were buried in a cemetery on the grounds, why would some bones be dumped in this separate container? Before you question my decency, wait for the Gardai report. Good God, man, have you no sense of truth?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 03:10 AM

"apparently causes by an outbreak of staphylococcus infection."
Like the Irish potato blight Joe, it wasn't the cause of the Famine that was the problem, but the inhuman way in which it was handled.
Your re-posting my link is somewhat of a non-sequitor and my point remains the same - the Church has proven itself beyond all doubt to be totally unsuited and unfit to have any say in how our lives are run, other than through spiritual guidance, and even this must be accepted voluntarily and be subject to close scrutiny.
They have shown themselves to be untrustworthy, particularly when it comes to contact with children.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 03:47 AM

If you are purely judging this institution then the police report will be a source of evidence (not judgement.) However, the overall fitness for purpose of church run social care already has legal judgements against it and has been found wanting.

Interestingly, with little chance of finding anyone still around who made decisions there, it will never have full legal closure, so the stain will remain. All the more important that the Catholic Church demonstrate how they will in future prevent such things happening in their name.

If they can't, how can they therefore take credit for some of the good things carried out in their name?   The days of religious organisations having it both ways are over in civilised society. Too many cracks for the wallpaper to cover.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 04:25 AM

OK, Jim, the diarrhea was probably caused by a sex-addicted nun who was on holiday from her usual practice of devil-worshipping with her Imaginary Friend. Does that satisfy you?

I'm sorry, Jim, it must be my thirty years of experience as an investigator. I want to know the truth, and I hate things that smack of propaganda and prejudice.

While almost all of the stories of the child molestations and the mother-baby homes and the industrial schools and the Magdalene Laundries are true, they all have been reported as "new" information so many times, that readers cannot get any sense of the true proportion of the problem. The propagandists are recycling old stories so often, that it has come to the point where people starting not to believe it anymore. And when actual new information develops and needs to be heard, people won't be listening anymore. People really need to know the truth of this story, because it is a very important one.

When you posted your story, I thought at first you were referring to Tuam because Tuam was what we were talking about. On second reading, I did come to understand that incident was in Cork. And then mg reported a green diarrhea story with similar details, as if it were a new incident that hadn't already been reported in the thread. I simply wanted to make it clear that it was not an additional incident. Could it be that you actually would find it offensive that I would do that? And I did not re-post your link - I posted a link to your message, although I cannot imagine what would be wrong with re-posting a link somebody else posted, if it helped to clarify what I was trying to say. And why in the world would you be so peeved about my referring to the hypothetical possibility of your using screws and a screwdriver in a home improvement project? It is below your lofty station in life to do home improvement projects, or what?

You're just being peevish, Jim, and for no reason. I think you're better than that.

You say: the Church has proven itself beyond all doubt to be totally unsuited and unfit to have any say in how our lives are run, other than through spiritual guidance, and even this must be accepted voluntarily and be subject to close scrutiny.
They have shown themselves to be untrustworthy, particularly when it comes to contact with children.

I'm not sure my opinion is all that different from yours in the end result. I've never deemed Catholic Church "authority" to be anything more than advisory, so I don't really mind if Catholic Church authorities say whatever they want to say - and it makes me nervous to hear proposals that their freedom to speak should be restricted. I think that in general, Catholic bishops and the Pope have spoken very wisely over the last 150 years about issues of peace and warfare, capital punishment, justice to workers, the rights of immigrants, racial prejudice, the avarice of capitalism, and a number of other social justice issues - and I am very proud that they have had the courage to speak out on these matters. In the United States, the Catholic Church is one of the few voices against American militarism, capital punishment, and oppression of immigrants and workers. I would hate to see that voice silenced.
On the other hand, I don't think Catholic bishops and the pope know the first thing about sex, marriage, children, and family life. Parish priests have direct, daily contact with families and family crises, and often may have great wisdom in these matters (despite their celibacy). But bishops and popes rarely have contact with the experiences of real family life, and their foolish pronouncements prove it. Pope John Paul II came up with a campaign to teach the "Theology of the Body," particularly to teenagers, and that campaign makes me very nervous because it is so unrealistic. I work in youth ministry with teenage kids, and the other leaders want the kids to go to "Theology of the Body" retreats conducted by conservative organizations. I want these kids to have a realistic understanding of things, and still look on sex as something sacred. I'm finding it's a delicate thing to deal with, since most of the parents in my area are quite conservative. There's a reason why I've made friends with all of the conservative families in my parish - many of them homeschool their children, some in families of 6, 7, or 8 kids. I do my best to tone down that conservatism. And I've often found that I really enjoy the families and that they enjoy me despite my liberalism.

But then you say, They have shown themselves to be untrustworthy, particularly when it comes to contact with children. And then I'm not so sure. I have found many members of Catholic religious orders, particularly Jesuits, who have a passion for teaching kids how to think for themselves and get past all the bullshit and propaganda that surrounds us. Yes, there are a few sexual predators among them, as there are wherever there are children. But I've watched many of these priests and brothers and sisters in action, and it's thrilling to see the brilliance they can draw out of young men and women. I do presentations to kids who go to Catholic schools, and to kids who go to government-owned schools. At least in the U.S., the Catholic school kids are far, far better than those going to state-owned schools. The Catholic school kids get actively engaged in discussions, and the public school kids feign ignorance (or maybe they ARE ignorant). For the most part, I have found kids in U.S. Catholic schools to be more open-minded than those in state-run schools. The Catholic school kids have been taught to relish debate, and often the public school kids just listen to their iPods.

But here in the U.S., we cannot even imagine churches running schools and institutions that are paid for by government money. If a church runs a school in the U.S., the students have to pay their own tuition.

If I understand things correctly, churches often run schools in Europe that are paid for entirely by taxpayer money. In some countries (Germany is one, I believe), the operating cost of churches is paid for by taxation. To us Americans, that is simply incredible. We wouldn't dream of having our churches controlled by the government that way.

I sent my kids to Catholic schools, but I paid every penny of the cost of their education (while paying taxes that paid for the public school education they could have had for free). And believe me, it was expensive - so I made damn sure they got a good education, so I served a good number of years on the school board and visited every classroom every year to sing songs and tell stories.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 05:12 AM

OK, so I guess now I should answer Musket, who says:
If you are purely judging this institution then the police report will be a source of evidence (not judgement.) However, the overall fitness for purpose of church run social care already has legal judgements against it and has been found wanting.

Interestingly, with little chance of finding anyone still around who made decisions there, it will never have full legal closure, so the stain will remain. All the more important that the Catholic Church demonstrate how they will in future prevent such things happening in their name.

If they can't, how can they therefore take credit for some of the good things carried out in their name?   The days of religious organisations having it both ways are over in civilised society. Too many cracks for the wallpaper to cover.

Musket, you are still basing your conclusions on your assumption of uniformity and central control within the Catholic Church, and that assumption of yours is absolutely false. Rather than making an overall judgment that covers all billion members of the Catholic Church, you must view the Catholic Church as a loose affiliation of independent individuals and independent organizations, who operate almost completely without control from outside forces or from the Vatican.

Some organizations and religious orders in the Catholic Church have a proven record of responsible operation of institutions for the education and care of children. Some have a horrible record. Some are to be trusted with children, and some are not. It is impossible to make a blanket statement that would apply to the entire, billion-member Catholic Church.

You demand "that the Catholic Church demonstrate how they will in future prevent such things happening in their name." And if you trusted such a demonstration, you would be foolhardy. The bishops of the Catholic Church have done a lot to establish controls over such things, but your assumption of uniformity gets in the way again. Controls that apply to an entire church or to an entire diocese can be effective only to a degree. The scrutiny must take place on a lower level and must be far more direct than a diocese can manage.

Oh, and then there's a restatement of how the Catholic Church can't "have it both ways," which is another display of your erroneous assumption of uniformity in the Catholic Church. You say, "The days of religious organisations having it both ways are over in civilised society" - and you are absolutely wrong. The Catholic Church will forever be flawed and will forever be plagued with horrible scandal, while at the same time others in the Catholic Church will do amazingly good things. That is the reality of things in a billion-member organization. Some of its members will do wonderful things, and some will do horrible things - and there will never, ever be the uniformity that people expect to see in the Catholic Church.

-Joe-

---

Click here for an analysis of the story from Forbes Magazine. I think it has a far more realistic perspective, although I'll stick to my theory that the bones in the septic tank may have been moved there after they were found in unmarked graves that were dug up when the property was made into a subdivision.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 05:49 AM

'you must view the Catholic Church as a loose affiliation of independent individuals and independent organizations, who operate almost completely without control from outside forces or from the Vatican'

I must wonder when this state of being came about Joe. It must be recently. I can imagine the Vatican maintaining a lassez faire attitude as long as the various parts of the church are towing the line but I think anyone looking into the matter will quickly find who's holding the reins.

While I am not up on church history I do remember the trend towards a more 'progressive' church during the seventies and eighties, in South America, in Europe. I also seem to remember the Vatican clamping down on that movement by parachuting in conservative bishops to quench the perceived move to the left in various countries. I can give you the Dutch RC church as an example where people like Gijsen in Roermond and Simonis in Rotterdam were clear representatives of the Vatican taking control much against the general opinion and wishes of the local organisations.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 07:00 AM

"propaganda and prejudice"
I'm sorry too Joe - sorry that you have resorted to dishonest evasion to defend the indefensible.
You have the facts - without any hint of either of what you accuse me of.
Clerical child abuse, The Magdalene Laundries and now care homes have loosened the grip of the Church on'Holy Ireland' - you have yet to deal with (and no doubt, find excuses for) the seizing and selling of children to deal with.
Your disgraceful stance on this does neither you nor your church any favours.
This insightful and humane piece from one of Ireland's finest journalists, a Christian Brothers educated writer, named among the top 300 British intellectuals (despite not being British) - from this morning's Irish Times.
Jim Carroll

DARK ELEMENTS OF OUR PAST ARE ALSO FORCES IN OUR PRESENT
Fintan O'Toole

The Irish psychosis whose latest expression is thousands of dead babies in unmarked graves is a compound of four elements: superiority, shame, cruelty and exclusion. The Taoiseach last week called the deaths of those children "yet another element of our country's past". Are we so sure that these forces are not also our country's present?
The superiority complex in Irish society came from the desperate need of an insecure middle class to have someone to look down on, an inferior Other against which to define its own respectability.
In 1943, the Joint Committee of Women's Societies and Social Workers com¬piled a well-meaning memorandum on children in institutions. It noted of those in mother-and-baby homes that "These illegitimate children start with a handicap. Owing to the circumstances of their birth, their heredity, the state of mind of the mother before birth, their liability to' hereditary disease and mental weakness, we do not get, and we should not expect to get, the large percentage of healthy vigorous babies we get in normal circumstances. This was noticeable in the institutions we visited. "
These were humane and compassionate reformers. And it seemed obvious to them that children born out of wedlock would be physically and mentally weak and that "we should not expect" them to be normally healthy.
Sense of inferiority A Catholic priest writing in the Irish Ecclesiastical Record in 1922 under the pen-name Sagart, actually objected to the establishment of mother-and-baby homes, not on the grounds that they were horribly oppressive in principle, but that they might let unmarried mothers lose their proper sense of inferiority.
The homes would "bring these poor girls into touch with each other, a thing which experience shows to be very
harmful. They feel that [they] are 'all in the same boat' and are inevitably led to 'compare notes ' and talk of their experiences. Each will thus have borne in on her mind the impression that her case is not extraordinary, and that many girls of seemingly unblemished reputation are no better than herself." He need not have worried, of course -the regime in the homes ensured that the women would have no illusions of normality.
The institutional church, meanwhile, was a giant factory for the mass production of shame and secrecy. It was the Irish secret service. In an article in The Irish Times 1964, Michael Viney referred to "the secret-service mother-and-baby homes" run by religious orders in Ireland.
The metaphor was not strained. Viney quoted the mother superior of a home he visited as telling him that the young women never set foot outside of the grounds: "They'd rather put up with a toothache than risk a visit to the dentist in the town, where they might just meet someone who would recognise them."
The church's genius was that it both generated the shame and controlled the secrets that resulted from it.
The third element was cruelty - conscious and deliberate cruelty, aimed at the creation of fear. Catholic Ireland locked up in mental hospitals, industrial schools, Magdalene laundries and mother-and- baby homes an astonishing 1 per cent of its entire population. The cruelty of these places was not accidental. "Sagart" regretted the unfortunate fact that too many Irish unmarried mothers led lives of misery in England - not because they suffered but because such "sufferings, borne as they are in a far-off place, have little of a deterrent effect on the girls of her neighbourhood". Catholic Ireland needed the deterrent of suffering in the big walled buildings.
Psychosis of emigration
The final element was the psychosis of mass emigration that accustomed society
to absences, exclusions, holes in the fabric of reality. Viney reported that the homes had well-run systems for sending letters from inmates to London- they were then posted back to the young woman's family with British stamps, as if from an accommodation address in England.
The mother-and-baby homes were a form of internal exile. But Ireland's biggest mother-and-baby home was always England: in the four years between 1950 and 1953,1,693 Irish unmarried mothers applied for help to the Crusade of Rescue in the Catholic diocese of Westminster alone.
We're less crude about them now, but all of these factors persist. The winners in Irish society still think the losers are a different breed. If shame has gone, why do we use secret abortions in England to preserve the myth of holy Ireland? Cruelty and fear survive: the law of the land still says that a teacher in a Catholic school can be sacked without redress for getting pregnant outside marriage. Contempt for poor children is thriving - one third of our children currently live in deprivation. If you think we don't treat vulnerable children as "deterrents" any more, have a look at the system for asylum seekers. And of course, we've reverted to the use of mass emigration as the solution to our social problems. The past has yet to pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 01:07 PM

- A special commission is being set up to investigate the Mother & baby homes:

'The special commission of investigation will examine the high mortality rates at Mother and Baby homes across several decades of the 20th century, the burial practices at these sites and also secret and illegal adoptions and vaccine trials on children, Minister for Children Charlie Flanagan said.'


- The records of the Bon secours home in Tuam have no reference to the place of burial of any of the dearths recorded at the home.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 01:32 PM

The Dozier School in Florida was a state-supported institution. Forensic anthropologists are disinterring some 55 bodies to determine causes of death, etc. Some children as young as one year were interned there. Truancy from school was one of the crimes which could lead to incarceration.

A former internee told of blood on the walls, filth, and starvation. The school operated from 1900-2011.

A current news report- BBC News Magazine, 15 April 2014.

There may be more bodies buried elsewhere than in the plot currently under investigation.

Ireland is not alone in these horror stories and the Irish Catholic Church is not the sole culprit.


In Alberta, the separate Catholic school system is supported by public money and runs parallel with the Public System.
All provinces in Canada have similar systems.
Parents do not pay, as they would have to do in the U. S.

In Santa Fe, funds from the Archdiocese help pay for students whose parents are poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 01:39 PM

Joe, Greg F's sole purpose is to demonize or ridicule all who post opinion, fact or supposition or other legitimate material. He does not contribute anything of substance.

His comments on your posts and mine illustrate his bent. It is time his name was removed from membership.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 01:41 PM

Ireland is not alone in these horror stories and the Irish Catholic Church is not the sole culprit.

I don't recall anyone saying that they were.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 03:45 PM

"Ireland is not alone in these horror stories and the Irish Catholic Church is not the sole culprit."

That is so true. The commonalities are church, state and populace: they all three deserve the blame in equal amounts. Silence on the part of any is a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 04:30 PM

We Didn't Know
Words and Music by Tom Paxton

We Didn't Know

We didn't know said the Burgomeister,
About the camps on the edge of town.
It was Hitler and his crew,
That tore the German nation down.
We saw the cattle cars it's true,
And maybe they carried a Jew or two.
They woke us up as they rattled through,
But what did you expect me to do?

[Cho:]
We didn't know at all,
We didn't see a thing.
You can't hold us to blame,
What could we do?
It was a terrible shame,
But we can't bear the blame.
Oh no, not us, we didn't know.

We didn't know said the congregation,
Singing a hymn in a church of white.
The Press was full of lies about us,
Preacher told us we were right.
The outside agitators came.
They burned some churches and put the blame,
On decent southern people's names,
To set our colored folk aflame.
And maybe some of our boys got hot,
And a couple of niggers and reds got shot,
They should have stayed where they belong,
The preacher would've told us if we'd done wrong.

[Cho:]

We didn't know said the puzzled voter,
Watching the President on TV.
I guess we've got to drop those bombs,
If we're gonna keep South Asia free.
The President's such a peaceful man,
I guess he's got some kind of plan.
They say we're torturing prisoners of war,
But I don't believe that stuff no more.
Torturing prisoners is a communist game,
And You can bet they're doing the same.
I wish this war was over and through,
But what do you expect me to do?

[Cho:]

From

http://www.mydfz.com/Paxton/lyrics/wdk.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 05:29 PM

Jim Carroll, I just don't understand what you are saying. Over and over again, you accuse me of having "resorted to dishonest evasion to defend the indefensible" - yet you refuse to cite any specific examples of my having done this. You simply repeat over and over again, your accusations that I deny the wrongdoing that has taken place in Ireland, and that I defend those who have done wrong.

I do deny the story about the 800 baby bodies in a septic tank in Tuam. The story is patently false, and serves only to distract from the truth of the systematic mistreatment of children in institutions in Ireland during the first half of the twentieth century.

I do not deny or defend what happened in the scandals of clerical child abuse, the Magdalene Laundries, the industrial schools, or the care homes. I do believe these matters must be studied truthfully, rationally, and without hysteria. Your distorted accusations against me show you have lost regard for the truth, and you are becoming increasingly irrational and hysterical. You've lost it, man.

---

Peter Laban, Church history is a sordid and fascinating tale, a very complex matter with no straight lines. Look back to the 16th century and ask yourself who had the most power in the Church in England. Was it Rome, or was it the King? What about in pre-revolution France? Remember that the popes were in Avignon 1309 to 1377. And toward the end of the Avignon Papacy, there were two or three popes at the same time for several years, and each pope answered to a different national power. And then we hear of the Spanish Inquisition of the late 15th century - note that a succession of Spanish Borgias sat on the throne in Rome at the time. For centuries, the papacy was usually held by whichever was the most powerful family in Europe at the time. No wonder there was a Reformation.

But it's more complicated that that. National churches paid better attention to Rome (or Avignon) when the Pope was "one of their own," and the pope usually answered to some more powerful party in his home country. There were also rich and powerful and fiercely independent monasteries scattered all over Europe, and they also weren't too good about answering to the Pope.

The Church cleaned up its act a bit after the Reformation, instituting reforms during the Council of Trent (1545-63). Trent is like Mecca for many current ultra-right Catholics who interpret its proclamations very rigidly, but it actually came out with a lot of very reasonable reforms. The Church in Rome became less and less important as a political entity. The Pope had held the Papal States in central Italy since the 700s, but lost control of all territory with the unification of Italy in 1870. A very interesting character was Pope Pius IX, the longest-reigning elected pope in the history of the Catholic Church (1846-78 - 32 years). While Pius IX lost control as a political ruler, he was quite effective in establishing control over religious matters. His First Vatican Council (1869-1870) decreed the much-misunderstood doctrine of Infallibility. While often referred to as "papal infallibility," the doctrine applies only to teachings - and only those that are at the highest level and are considered to be dogma.

Pius IX and the loss of the Papal States brought about what is sometimes referred to as the Cult of the Papacy - the belief in the Pope as the center of the faith of the Roman Catholic Church. Pius X (ruled 1903-1914) ranted against what he referred to as the heresy of Modernism, which a theology professor told us was a "list of things Pius X didn't like." From 1910 until 1967, Priests and certain others had to take an Oath Against Modernism, which did a lot to force at least some uniformity upon the Church.

Now, interestingly, the ones who now most loudly profess their loyalty to Rome, are the ultra-conservatives. Their loyalty is more to what they think Rome should be saying, rather than actual proclamations to the Vatican. The most powerful seat of ultra-conservative power is Opus Dei, which has its roots in Spain and has some interesting (and embarrassing) ties to the Franco Regime. Another is the Society of Saint Pius X, founded by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who was excommunicated in 1988. Another is the Legionaries of Christ, founded in Mexico in 1941 by Marcial Maciel, a favorite of Pope John Paul II. Maciel was guilty of a long list of sexual and other improprieties, and was suspended from the priesthood in 2006.

The Catholics who are probably the ones most loyal to the Vatican are the Sedevacantists ("empty seat"). Despite their absolute belief in the authority of the Pope, they believe there has been no legitimate pope since the death of Pius XII in 1958.

So, Peter, my point in all this is that Rome doesn't have as firm a grip on the Catholic Church as one might think it has. The "local ordinary" (chief bishop) is the highest authority in a diocese, and it is near impossible to remove a sitting bishop. About the best the Vatican can do is ask an offending bishop to resign. The bishop has a right to refuse, and then the process of removal may go on until the bishop reaches mandatory retirement age. The national organizations of bishops are very strong in a few countries, and not so strong in some. The British were in power in Ireland until the early 1920s, but yet the Irish people were all Catholic. The best and brightest and most powerful sons and daughters of Ireland went into service of the Church. My theory is that this gave an inordinate amount of power to the bishops of Ireland, since for centuries the Irish had no government of their own to counter the power of the Church. And the Church remained powerful and independent after Irish independence. I don't know as much about the history of the Catholic Church in Ireland as I'd like to, but I do know that it is not a pretty story. But it is clear to me that the power of the Catholic Church in Ireland has always been held by Irish sons of Irish mothers, not by the Vatican.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 05:57 PM

When one can unentangle the relationship between the Irish sons who go on to become priests ad Irish mothers, one will understand the church in Ireland, and pretty much in America. It often seems way to be unhealthily entertwined...emotionally unhealthy, son fulfilling some of the aspects that should be the father..mother pushing father away for fear of another pregnancy, father turning to drink sometimes...mother son thing is very wierd sometimes and this has been heard from the pulpit..this totally unrealistic almost worship of the mother that no one else seems to have. What comes first, the chicken or the egg? I do not know. But it is part of what needs to be looked at. IF one puts one's mother on a pedestal, gives her retroactive virtues of chastity untained by marriage etc..how can one have a healthy view of marriage, mating in general etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 06:14 PM

MG, it sounds like you're telling the life story of my troubled Irish pastor, who seems to sincerely believe that all priests are alcoholics. He has a lot of good qualities, but a lot of anger issues - and a lot of that anger has been directed at me over the last nine years. And yes, his father was a drinker. I think he's afraid of me because I have an annoying tendency to speak the truth. He's done everything in his power to push me out of the things I've done in the church for years, and has been known to refer to a class I teach as "Joe's fucking bible study."

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 06:42 PM

Sounds like a real prince Joe - and a great advertisement for Catholicism.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 07:07 PM

He's certainly a difficult case, Greg - but despite that, he can be very effective. I suppose it would be nice to have only perfect humans serve as priests - but perfect humans have an annoying habit of being very shallow. Does the Catholic Church need advertising, or is it better off dealing with reality? My relationship with this guy, despite profound difficulties, is actually quite productive.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 09:03 PM

OK, then read "example" for "advertisement". And nobody- least of all me- expects "perfect" humans; I've never met one, Joe - have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 02:26 AM

"Jim Carroll, I just don't understand what you are saying."
You have described criticism of the Catholic church, here and elsewhere, as 'propaganda', you have never, as far as I can see, accepted the role that the church AS AN ORGANISATION has had in all these cases, and you have attacked those of us who have pointed them out, as prejudiced bigots.
What seems obvious to me is that all of these affairs are a case of a Church with too much power and influence and the abuse of that power.
Many of my family are Catholics; virtually all of my friends and neighbours here are Catholics
I respect their beliefs, while not sharing them.
The vast majority of them I have spoken with feel that they have been betrayed - not by a "few rotten apples", but by the church itself.
I share that view is the extent of my 'bigotry' and 'prejudice'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:41 AM

Another way of removing a bishop is under arrest. Covering up and moving criminals on rather than informing the police of the alleged crime by his employees. That's how civilised society deals with crime so removing isn't quite as difficult as you think Joe.

Even now, even with the spotlight on the fitness of the church, the whisking off of Cardinal O 'Brien out of the reach of the Scottish police investigation of his abuse of boys questions this myth over the innocence of The Vatican. (Not forgetting his threats to excommunicate any catholic MSP who voted for gay marriage a few weeks before his hypocritical lifestyle was exposed.)

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:43 AM

You, Mr. Carroll, are putting words in my mouth. You say, "you have never, as far as I can see, accepted the role that the church AS AN ORGANISATION has had in all these cases." I have always acknowledged The misdeeds were committed by Irish priests, nuns, and others involved in the operation of the institutions. Irish bishops and Irish Catholic religious orders were responsible for oversight of the work done in these institutions. And one would think that there must be Irish government officials who shared responsibility for oversight.

These things were not done under orders from the Vatican.

There is no doubt that what was done in these institutions was wrong, but people have used this tragedy and an excuse for a broad attack against the entire Catholic Church.

And this Tuam story was the most sensational, with people all over the world outraged that Catholic nuns had dumped 800 bodies into a septic tank. To many of them, the fact that it didn't happen, is immaterial.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:26 AM

Joe, I'm just not buying that. Child abuse is endemic in this Church, in the case I was involved in in Belgium 800 cases were covered up by the circle immediately surrounding the Cardinal, a Papal instruction to cooperate with the team I formed has been ignored, this goes right to the top. I have firm evidence of it starting with Pope Leo XIII, and it continues. The tale is too big to write here, but my team includes a Belgian Supreme Court judge, technically in retirement, and Belgium's top corporate ethicist.

Your leaders have failed, and will bring you down too. I'm a Protestant and was very clearly jonahed into it, some intervention instantly forced my hand when I decided I wanted nothing of it. 'Im Upstairs (or wherever) still backed that Church then, but not now, I think. Not exery part is tainted, but because good men like you are doing nothing real to sort out the mess, you're allowing real evil to flourish in your midst.

Leo XIII's chief theological adviser was Cardinal Henri de Bonnechose. His confessor was Bishop Felix Billard, and Bishop Billard was clearly deeply involved in FUDOSI, the French satanic group who put the "naughty" into "nineties". This was the circle behind the Rennes le Chateau nonsense, blackmailing the Pope over his mistress and alchemical interests - interests, in passing, which may lie behind numerous child murders, from Ian Huntley at Soham to Gilles de Rais, the original Bluebeard.

I don't think matters have improved since.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:51 AM

Joe Offer said we should wait for the full facts to come out. He then said it didn't happen.

A wee bit of consistency please Joe. To date, I read your posts because you give a perspective that may be less than objective, but is at least genuine. Believe me, on some threads around here, that alone is a welcome relief.

Whether it were 800 or just one, the evidence to date does seem to suggest that babies and young children were, for the crime of being born out of religious wedlock, starved to death and not given a burial in line with the religion that was complicit in their murder.

There is no sensationalism in that statement above. If one baby was tossed in a cesspit or septic tank, it was done by people whose superstition meant that you had to be buried in line with their rules in order to enjoy the jam tomorrow they promise their members. Callous isn't quite strong enough is it?

If we need to bandy around the numbers to ease collective conscience, I can live with that, but with no prejudice whatsoever as to the heinous crime itself. Stalin once said that a single death is a tragedy and a million deaths a statistic. Don't go all Stalinist on us eh? (He trained as a priest if my history books haven't been revised just yet...)

Folk singers wanting to wait for the official history to be written? Since when?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 05:39 AM

The 800-body story is just too sensational to let go of, huh, Musket?

I'm still convinced that a rational, balanced study is going to produce the most useful response. But go ahead and hold onto your hysteria. Must be hard to sustain such excitement about a 60-year-old event, so you guys must be using Viagra or something....

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 05:53 AM

Joe: In all honesty & sobriety:-

can you really call it "hysteria" to be distressed by such things having occurred within living memory? 60 whole years ago, eh! My goodness; waywayway-back ~~ when I was an ancient in my 20s. Really longlonglongago history! Absolutely antediluvian!; so let's just fuggedaboutit, huh!

Surprised at you, Joe! Genuinely...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 06:43 AM

I came across this account with a Google search. It may add some historic perspective?

Catherine Corles  

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:04 AM

"June 9, 2014 ,LONDON — The Roman Catholic archbishop of Dublin, regarded as among the most influential church leaders in England and Ireland, has added his voice to those calling for an urgent inquiry into the discovery of nearly 800 babies and children buried in a septic tank at Tuam, a home for unwed mothers in western Ireland."
Read more here: http://www.thestate.com/2014/06/09/3497456/irish-archbishop-adds-voice-to.html?sp=/99/132/#storylink=cpy




Irish archbishop adds voice to those calling for investigation 

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 08:17 AM

I think you'll find it's priests who have most requirement for Viagra when addressing ecclesiastical issues Joe...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 08:36 AM

Must be hard to sustain such excitement about a 60-year-old event

Hmmmm - 60 year old event - like the Holocaust, ya mean, Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 09:03 AM

On Ian's allegations of the "Catholic church starving children to death", I feel these remarks are simply conjecture.
In the 1920s and 30s in Ireland, starvation was everywhere, and how do we know the physical condition of every teenage mother who was admitted to these homes.
I am sure in those days, stillbirths and premature births must have been commonplace and had the undernourished babies survived into infancy, the treatment regimes and availability of effective drug therapy would have been nothing like we have at the present day.

Nothing is as simple as some would like us to believe.

On the abuse of boys, the Catholic Church and its celibacy rule has historically been a safe haven for male homosexuals, it is estimated that at least 30% of the priesthood are homosexual. The abuse was almost exclusively perpetrated by adult men on teenage boys, which would point to a sexual orientation factor coming into play.

Cardinal O'Brien's alleged crimes were not against boys, but young adult priests, which makes Cardinal Obrien a predatory male homosexual(if these allegations are proved)and a hypocrite, but not a paedophile.

Abuse can be stopped or reduced at a stroke by opening the priesthood to married men preferably with children......I hold the
Church to account for this rule which has caused untold damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 09:24 AM

Not forgetting his threats to excommunicate any catholic MSP who voted for gay marriage a few weeks before his hypocritical lifestyle was exposed

Not remembering this at all Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 10:02 AM

"Safe haven for male homosexuals."

Fucking amazing. I truly am speechless.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 12:44 PM

Amazed Ian, did you not know that homosexuality used to be a crime?

The word "historically" is the clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 01:02 PM

BBC News, 10 June, 2014- "deaths of almost 800 children..." Headline- "Babies born out of wedlock treated as inferior subspecies..."

Belfast Telegraph, 05 June 2014- "Archbishop of Tuam Michael Neary has told Bon Secours nuns that they have a moral obligation to engage with an examination of how 796 children died and were buried in a mass grave."
The Archbishop spoke of women "witnessing the death" of their babies.

Belfast Telegraph.co.uk/news, Wednesday, 11 June 2014

The ordered review "may include other homes around Ireland..."

I was going to leave this thread since it seems to be degenerating into condemnation of the Catholic Church and faith. I may be atheist, but singling out one Faith or government for what was widespread mistreatment of disadvantaged children by government as well as church-run institutions is wrong.

The story about 800 bodies seems to be accurate, not denied by the Archbishop or the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 01:25 PM

"The commonalities are church, state and populace: they all three deserve the blame in equal amounts. Silence on the part of any is a crime."

Second time lucky?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 02:26 PM

I do deny the story about the 800 baby bodies in a septic tank in Tuam. The story is patently false

Looks like you were right, Joe - it wasn't 800 children. It was only 796. The relative numbers of those in the septic tank vs. those in unmarked graves don't mean squat overall.

See 5th parahraph here:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27775763

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:11 PM

Thanks for that link, Greg F. The BBC story is the most balanced, rational presentation of the Tuam home story that I've seen.

And it doesn't mention the term "septic tank" a single time. Not once.

There's no doubt in my mind that the problems of the mother-and-baby homes were numerous and widespread - and that the people responsible for these problems were almost all Catholic, probably mostly nuns and priests. I wonder if people in 1961 knew about these problems. Do you think that possibly that could be the reason why they closed the Tuam home in 1961?

To my mind, that problem has been resolved. There are no more mother-and-baby homes, or industrial schools, or Magdalene Laundries. The truth remains that these things happened and that the Catholic Church of Ireland was the major party responsible. That shame will live on forever.

I wonder, though, about the passion and vehemence of the response to these stories of what happened fifty years ago. Do these same people expend as much passion and energy on current injustices?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:26 PM

The story has only recently surfaced, Joe, for heavens sake. Of course it is found stressful. I am afraid you are reminding me irresistibly of the old joke, that I have never found all that hilarious at that, about the Jew and the Irishmen who had been friends for years, until one day Patrick punched Moishe on the nose. "What was that for?" demanded the astonished Mo. "The Jews killed Jesus," Paddy replied. "But that was over 2000 years ago," Mo protested. "Maybe," sez Pat, "but I've only just heard about it!"

We've all only just heard about it, Joe; why is how long ago it happened supposed to condition our horrified response?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:47 PM

"it is estimated that at least 30% of the priesthood are homosexual"

As a courtesy, it would be nice to see a source, when such dark figures are put forward on an organization to which some mudcat folks are associated. Without it, "an estimate" could be as sketchy as a couple of tipsy guys throwing around blind guesses at a pub (hardly worth repeating). If it is valid research, why not share the information, for people to consider for themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:33 PM

50 years ago in Irish time is like two seconds...grudges go back for centuries...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 10:52 PM

My experience is current, Joe, in Belgium, true. I first learned they wanted to abuse the local kids, including my daughter, ten years back, and the battle over their plans continues to this day. Tuam was but one of many sites and your denials ring false, sadly.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 11:37 PM

Guest in belgium...are these abuse messes linked together...if so, wbat can you tell us.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:56 AM

A couple of good letters in today's Irish Times; both point out that while people are outraged at the Tuam atrocities, the comments in the paper on stories about current homelessness and the treatment of immigrants show that the same attitudes are alive and well.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 02:32 AM

I wonder, though, about the passion and vehemence of the response to these stories of what happened fifty years ago. Do these same people expend as much passion and energy on current injustices?

In most cases those dead children will have close relatives still alive and in some way suffering consequences from what the nuns did. Killing a child 50 years ago usually does mean a current injustice.

If you'd had a brother taken away in infancy and dropped down an anonymous hole somewhere after being refused baptism, wouldn't you want some sort of individual response that gave him a name and a story?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:34 AM

Funnily enough, I agree with Akenaton that priests should be allowed to marry. I somehow think however that his thoughts are slightly more exclusive than that of normal people on this subject.

Out of interest, does anybody know what, if any, the statute of limitation is for murder in Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 04:04 AM

Simples, Ian: what you think wikipedia for. Here you are --

"Statute of Limitations in Ireland

Limitation periods
Criminal cases

    Summary offences: normally 6 months but the period can vary
    Indictable offences: no limit,[2] judges have discretion regarding excessively long delays"

Murder obviously an indictable offence. So no limit.

OK?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 05:55 AM

@mg, that "grudges go back for centuries" trope is a typical piece of prejudice. (And I'll know *your* face again.)

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 05:56 AM

(Just realised I might have chilled mg a bit. That second part was, of course, a joke.)

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 09:10 AM

Ah. Wikipedia as the arbiter. That answers so many questions Michael....

Anyway.. Having written a song about it and sang it last night in a folk club, I can say that it is 800 and no lower figure, as 800 has the required three syllables for my verse, and anything subsequent won't last the passage of time in the same way a song does. A Martian Cecil Sharpe will collect my song in the future. He won't be unearthing an old copy of The Irish Times.

I still can't believe I heard a folk singer want to see what the nitty gritty facts are. So out of character.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 10:47 AM

sounds great Musket!

hush little baby now you're dead!
We'll keep your body in the shed!

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 12:09 PM

Anyway, to make MG feel better, a reply to his 11 Jun 14 - 11:37 PM

The Belgian situation has seen around 1000 dossiers into general abuse suppressed by the Malines archdiocese - research Wim de Troy.

The last of the suppressors is a child shrink named Peter Adriaenssens. He's in cahoots with the leaders of the La Ramée/Fond'Roy psychiatric institution, Belgium's top psychiatric hospital, in an organisation named Action for Teens.

These other shrinks are behind a campaign looting the last large greenfield site in Brussels, a convent opposite my former home, aiming at establishing an open outcentre for incurable psychiatric patients who have not responded to treatment in five years - Belgium's equivalent of Care in the Community. The Law on the subject only permits one such centre in each Council area, and one already exists there, making this a ghetto for the mentally abnormal - the main school for the mentally handicapped is also on the block.

The transfer of the property was structured for a notional amount, in fraudulent breach of Belgian fiscal law and in blatant contravention of a direct instruction from the Mother Superior General's immediate line superior the Pope (this being a Prima Primaria Order, reporting directly and uniquely to him). Their intention expressed in Crown Court was that half a dozen local kids should be able to reintegrate the mentally ill into society despite the failure of the best efforts of the profession over five years previously. Exposing the local kids (my own daughter foremost among them) to the tender care of 120 incurable madmen without the least consultation with, let alone approval from, their parents isn't child abuse, I don't know what is. In this, I worked with Belgium's top Supreme Court Judge in the domain, so it's not my subjective opinion, but that of the topmost authority.

The Order in question is supposed to be the ArchiAssociation of the Eucharist, "perpetually and universally" charged with the leadership of the lay Eucharistic Associations of the Roman Church, according to its Papal mandate of the 1890s. It has repeatedly refused to respect a Papal instruction to cooperate with the local Neighbourhood Association in the transfer of its functions, and so has completely dropped the ball where its responsibility for a fundamental tenet of the Christian creed, the Eucharist, is concerned. They have returned to the attack no less than five times now.

If Rome no longer gives a toss for its basic tenets of faith, let alone for children, then I can no longer consider it has any claim to spiritual authority. It has had its chance to correct itself, and seem determined to wallow in turpitude. True, it's not child murders on a Tuam scale, but the scale of abuse covered up and evidently still intended is on an equivalent level in terms of numbers. The victims have had no justice 4 years after the Adrieanssens Report, and matters continue as ever, unrepentant.

Roma delenda est

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 12:17 PM

Aye, Al. At the end of every verse, I shout "Come on everybody!" Just like The Spinners did; Let's sing of a mining disaster! Everybody!!

I must admit, I prefer the dirge lamenting and noting the story I wrote to your upbeat pop song there. Mine was inspired by the one mg put earlier in the thread. What was yours, Dave Allen?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:35 PM

you should not be surprised, musket. when folk singers wanted me to post lyrics to one of my songs they were very particular about the details !

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:38 PM

Jack is absolutely right. If Joe you had heard some of the harrowing stories that people have been telling on RTE radio recently, of their personal experiences you would realise just how right he is.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:40 PM

Can you post thelyrics

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:08 PM

Aye well pete, you write your lyrics from your perspective and I from mine eh?

That said, nobody here, unless they were in a certain folk club in North !Lincolnshire last night know the song I wrote....

I am playing over the weekend down in Surrey so the song gets another airing. Mind you, I daren't get down as far as Dorset. Al might picket the pub door...

Ireland and superstition interfering in reality and making lives a misery. Not exactly a new song subject is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:14 PM

"These things were not done under orders from the Vatican."
In the case of Bessborough, the Vatican intervened directly when the appointed medical officer demanded that the medically inexperined be removed from caring for the children and that sick and infected children be quarantined - a papal representative complained to deValera directly.
Throughout thechild abuse scandal, the hierarchy of the church facilitated further abuse by passing the abusers on to other parishes, and eventually other countries and continue their abusing.
The Vatican still refuses to release documents to surviving abuse victims - see Mea Maxima Culpa.
As I said - not "a few rotten apples" - but a whole blighted tree.
Ireland in the first half of the 20th century was what it was directly due to the influence of the Church
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 05:25 PM

And if you doubt it, ask yourself why it is now 15 months after Francis was elected and narry a doctrinal instruction given. Someone probably whispered John Paul I in his ear.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:29 PM

Be a Catholic! Don't be a sceptic!
We can dump our babies in a tank that's septic
We can dance at the crossroads! that will be a highlight
Before we kill the kids, in the Celtic Twilight!

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 01:12 AM

Never heard anyone call your songs rap before Al.

There again, my ears need syringing.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 10:12 AM

well catholic priest pervs - its a bit of an open goal.

bit like all these songs - isn't it a pity all the heroes died in the first world war....yeh that's revolutionary talk all right...man the barricades!

it gets to the point where someone like that muslim woman denounces IDS as a thieving greedy bastard - and everyone is shocked. just imagine that...having something to say about whats happening this week!

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 11:08 AM

I saw it. I'm not sure any of the panelists came out smelling of roses. I was even shouting at the telly at the end of a particular contribution by Ian Hislop, and that doesn't happen too often.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 12:06 PM

The previous two entries referring to BBC's Question Time 12.6.14, which I turned off within two minutes once it became clear the agenda was rigged.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 01:23 PM

The program "Question Time" is seen in N. Am. but I seldom watch.

However, if "that muslim woman" applies to Salma Yaqoob, it sounds like a gratuitous racist slur.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 01:40 PM

IDS = Iain Duncan Smith, Tory leader.
mudcat is international, and posts that are not made with this in mind are useless for many who look at the thread.

A summary of Selma Yaqoob's comments and Smith's appeared in the Huffington Post United Kingdom, 13/06/2014; which may be found with Google.

Just how this applies to the subject of this thread is not apparent.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 03:39 AM

IDS isn't the Tory leader, but he used to be many years ago, when they were in opposition. He is the works and pensions secretary.

Question Time is never rigged, other than the panel is known beforehand to the audience who may tailor their questions accordingly.

Nothing to do with this thread. Al made a link, I commented and the rest is par for the course.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 04:23 AM

"Question Time is never rigged,"
Moot point Muskie.
The questions are submitted beforehand and sometimes the programme is 'sanitised' by careful selection I understand.
Also, as I understand it, it operates a '20 second' system, whereby the technicians are able to edit or exclude offensive, liable or maybe 'controversial' contributions before the signal is actually transmitted.
One of the reasons I ceased to be a devoted follower is the infuriating way in which the chairman insists on interrupting with his own opinions - he never used to, way back.
I never watched the Irish counterpart of the programme for exactly the same reason, only here it was far worse - no longer with us.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 04:50 AM

I said all that Jim.

The programme doesn't have a delay as it is recorded earlier in the evening these days. As a licence payer I don't wish to see my fee being used fighting libel cases so the opportunity to edit it out is rather important. More money to spend on commissioning a new series of Quirke.

Back to the subject. An interesting article with an interview with the lady herself in today's Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 04:56 AM

Up above, Musket describes the Catholic Church as an organisation that sees itself as fit for judging the morals of others.

I wonder what qualifications an organization has to have to be worthy to comment on the morality of something.

To my mind, "morality" has very little to do with sexual conduct. Sexual matters fit in there somewhere, but most of the time they serve to distract us from the real matters of morality, the well-being of people who are oppressed and the commandment to "do unto others as you would have them....."

The Washington Post says that last Sunday, Pope Francis hosted Israeli President Shimon Peres and Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas in what he termed a "Prayer Summit." Peres and Abbas "concluded the two-hour ceremony by kissing each other on the cheek and then planting an olive tree, gestures intended to signal a commitment to trying to end one of the longest-running, most intractable conflicts in the world."

I'd say that was quite an accomplishment, to get Peres and Abbas together in peace for two hours.

I've been working particularly hard the last two weeks as a Catholic representative in an interfaith effort on two projects - to reduce the phenomenal incarceration rate in the U.S., and to provide housing for homeless people in our community. Particularly in the mass incarceration project, I had to stand up before county officials and tell them they were wrong.

I suppose you could say that in these situations, the Pope and I were guilty of "judging the morals of others." The Pope said Israel and Palestine were wrong to have kept fighting these 65 years, and I said our county officials were wrong to suppress a report that pointed out mismanagement of our criminal justice system.

According to Musket's logic, the Pope and I have no right to speak out on such matters, because we belong to a church that was responsible for running institutions in Ireland that practiced cruelty in a variety of ways during the first half of the twentieth century.

In my area, most of the social service programs have Catholic roots, the community organizing group where I'm the spokesman and the women's center where I do maintenance work, the food bank, the dining room that provides meals and services to homeless people, Mercy Housing that builds low-income housing, and many other services. All of these agencies started out Catholic, but they are now all but Mercy Housing* are disconnected from any church and open to all volunteers and clients. But still, these agencies show their Catholic roots - two have nuns as executive directors (and I'm proud to say that both of them are friends of mine). And these agencies are very vocal in speaking up for the rights of people in need, so they also are guilty of making moral judgments of the actions of those who seek to oppress the poor.

I get really involved in this stuff, and I get a lot of satisfaction out of doing something worthwhile - but it's hard work. The worst part is having to get up early in the morning when the work demands it. I'm not the kind of person who functions very well before about noon.

But according to Musket and many others who have posted above, I'm not worthy to be doing this work, because I belong to a church that was responsible for some really bad stuff in Ireland during the first half of the twentieth century.

What they say about the industrial schools and the mother and baby homes and the Magdalene Laundries is all true, as are the countless stories of priests molesting children, as are so many other stories of injustice committed by people in the name of the Catholic Church. I wouldn't dream of denying these things. Indeed, I have been aware of child molestation in the Catholic Church since the 1960s, and I have worked in many different ways to promote efforts to stop this abuse and punish the offenders. One time, I was recruited by my diocese to monitor the conduct of a priest who had been accused of making inappropriate advances toward a woman, and (because of my background as an investigator) I have been called on to provide assistance in a number of programs designed to protect the safety of children.

I am well aware of the many bad things that have been done under Catholic auspices. Rog Peek says, "If Joe you had heard some of the harrowing stories that people have been telling on RTE radio recently, of their personal experiences you would realise just how right he is." I'm sure that I would be moved by those stories, Rog - but I'm already convinced that what was done in the mother and baby homes was wrong, and in the industrial schools, and in the Magdalene Laundries, and in the countless cases of molestation of children by priests. No question about it - I am appalled by these things, just as appalled as anyone here.

But these things happened in the past, and most of them were done by people I would readily condemn. But then some other things were done by people I've known and admired, and It's really hard for me to decide what to think about that. I knew so-and-so, and I really liked him. He was a brilliant person, and he was good to everybody. And he led a number of programs that accomplished wonderful things. But along the way, he molested children - and the news accounts have convinced me that the accusations against him are true. But I've known this guy, and I've seen all the good things he's done. I can't understand why he molested those children, but the reports are very credible and there's no way I can deny them. But do the accusations mean that everything good this man has done is for naught?

And what about me? I know my own faults very well, and I've done lots of things I'm not proud of. Do my faults mean I'm not worthy to do anything worthwhile? But if I'm not worthy do do what I have to do this week to oppose mass incarceration, nobody is going to do it - so what do I do now?

Peter Laban asks difficult questions, but he does so in a way that's fair; and I've never found reason to oppose him. I know Jim Carroll and Musket and MtheGM much better and I like them very much, and I appreciate much of what they have to say, but sometimes I think they're unfair. I'm not sure they realize how much I like them, but I do.

I have to say that threads like this give me a lot to think about. They also give me good reason for humility, which is a very good thing. I think they're right in many ways. I really am not worthy to stand in front of county officials and tell them they are wrong. Who am I to say that? Since I know I am not worthy to pass judgment on them, I've been forced to think about them and their value, and I've come to really like most of the people I'm opposing. And then a funny thing is happening - I'm finding that they like me. And I'm actually finding out that we want the same thing, but that we describe it differently.

-Joe-

*Mercy Housing is operated by the Sisters of Mercy, who also operated some of the mother-and-baby homes and industrial schools in Ireland. Now they use hospital profits to build housing for homeless people in my area. I'm an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy, by the way. Oh, and they gave my community organizing group a $20,000 grant from those hospital profits, so we can fight for immigrant rights and against mass incarceration.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 06:53 AM

The church has always seen fit to judge the morals of others - from the 'cuttie stools' in Scots chapels to the public shaming of immoral women (never men) in front of congregations in Catholic churches.
One of the main reasons given by the church for their devastating opposition to crossroads and house dances was that they encouraged young people to socialise "unchaperoned".
The homes for "sinning" women, the Magdalene laundries and the seizure and sale of "illegitimate" babies were among the the results of this judgement, and the widespread and long-term clerical abuses were proof, if any were needed, of the total unsuitability of the largely male-dominated church as a guide and arbiter in sexual matters.
Interesting comment on the subject in this morning's Irish Times letter page:

"Sir, - David Smith (June 13th) might be surprised to learn that most atheists are not overly concerned with the belief (or non-belief) of others in deities. Their primary concern is the belief that the same deity cares, among other things, about who you sleep with, how you get married, what you learn in school, and whether your non-viable pregnancy should be terminated. The devolution of authority from the people to the church, often with disastrous consequences, is what really beggars belief.
Separate the church from the so-called republic, and you can believe in whatever you like.-
Yours, etc,
EOIN O'LOUGHLIN,
Newtown Park,
Naas Road,
Blessington,
Co Wicklow."

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 08:02 AM

these things happened in the past

No they didn't. The cover-up of these events and the marginalization of the living relatives affected by them continues to the present day. People in the Church hierarchy are ACTIVELY doing this as part of their job and knowingly causing real suffering in the process.

The term in Anglo-American law is "accessory after the fact". It seems that Catholic canon law not only has no such concept, it says the secular authority should be prevented from applying it by every means possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 08:41 AM

Regarding the 'judgement' Jim is writing about: the Clare Champion this week carries a story about the mother & baby home as was operated by the Sisters of Mercy in Kilrush. The mothers in that particular home were separated in 'First time offenders', who were there to have their first baby, and the 'degenerates', those who had the temerity of having two or more babies outside of wedlock.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 10:15 AM

Tell you what Joe, judging by the word count, judging by the words and judging by the strong emphasis on morals..

I seem to have hit a nerve.

You see, I don't need humility. Why? I don't have any association to defend.

Churches speak of teaching when they are really speaking of adherence. I didn't teach my children what to think, but I went to great pains trying to teach them how to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 04:21 PM

Joe probably thought he was on safe ground when he said "modern pro-lifers are unlikely to be in favor of burying dead babies in a septic tank." But he is forgetting that these kids were wicked little bastards: fit for neither baptism nor Christian burial; drenched in that oh, so compassionate concept, Original Sin.

Joe's world of sweet old ladies making nice tea, and jesuits capturing young minds purely to instil a lifelong love of learning(!), betrays an innocence that would be touching if the realities he overlooks were not so monstrous.

In Joe's world it is the brainwashed, not the brainwashers, who are to blame. The exploited are to blame rather than an arrogant church that learnt in mediaeval times that where education and knowledge are in short supply, ludicrous superstitions can be spread like a virus.

Joe's desire to bury the past would exculpate the Nazis and it would exculpate a number of churches, not least his own. It took the Nazis less than a decade to take hold of impressionable minds en masse. The Catholic church worked at it over many centuries, embedding its power deep in many cultures, enjoying its greatest success where access to education was most limited. Yet so easy to resist, in Joe's halcyon world.

In rural Irish communities even in the 1950s, it would have been as hard to defy the Catholic church as it would have been for German youth to defy Hitler. I always refrained from criticising the last pope for enlisting in the Hitler Youth in his salad days. To hold out against it would have needed an order of bravery I would probably not have had myself. Yet Joe is ready to blame entire communities for falling under the sway of an arrogant hierarchy, kitted to the hilt in their disgusting finery, which even (in the person of Dublin archbishop McQuade) drafted itself into the heart of the Irish Constitution. When a cabinet minister proposed mother-and-child legislation that would have taken the sinful little critturs away from the church's clutches, the church brought down the government.

That church is at last starting to lose the battle in Ireland, but Africa still offers fertile ground, with the Catholic bishops relentless in their quest to infest minds against the benefits of condoms. It would be better if Joe and all like-minded sweet innocents just shut up until they learn a little more about the miseries and destroyed lives for which their loving church is responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 10:19 PM

Jim Carroll says: The church has always seen fit to judge the morals of others - from the 'cuttie stools' in Scots chapels to the public shaming of immoral women (never men) in front of congregations in Catholic churches.
One of the main reasons given by the church for their devastating opposition to crossroads and house dances was that they encouraged young people to socialise "unchaperoned".
The homes for "sinning" women, the Magdalene laundries and the seizure and sale of "illegitimate" babies were among the the results of this judgement, and the widespread and long-term clerical abuses were proof, if any were needed, of the total unsuitability of the largely male-dominated church as a guide and arbiter in sexual matters.

Jim, Jim, Jim....why this compulsion to dwell on the past? Adn why this obsession with sex? We're in the twenty-first century now, not the fifteenth. Public shaming hasn't been a practice in the Catholic Church for over fifty years, and it was uncommon even in the first half of the twentieth century. For a long time even before the Second Vatican Council, the practice of the Catholic Church has been to express moral opinions in a rational fashion, not as edicts. When John Paul II condemned the American invasions of Iraq, he used logical arguments against the attacks - not edicts. And instead of damning all Americans to hell for the attacks, he explained the logical consequences of the action.

When Pope Francis attempted to intervene in the Israel-Palestine conflict, he used persuasion, not threats of damnation.

When Benedict XVI spoke against the greed of capitalism, he used a logical argument, not moral sanctions.

And the same goes back a long way. Most of the moral pronouncements of the Catholic Church in recent centuries have not been the moral dictates of your stereotype - they've been rational discussions of moral issues. Now, you may or may not agree with the church's opinion on these matters, but certainly that Catholic Church has as much right to voice an opinion as you have (and when the Catholic Church voices a moral opinion, it does so with a far less moralistic tone than you use yourself).

Your argument that the Catholic Church has no right to voice an opinion on moral matters because it has immoral acts in its history, simply doesn't make sense.

I see that the message I typed last night, brought out the bigots in full force. Even Fionn has raised his angry head to repeat the angry, self-righteous cry of condemnation (and his false implication that I would support Nazis). Musket, Jim Carroll, Fionn, and the others are all the same - they get on their white chargers and lead the charge of righteousness against the hordes of dead Catholics who committed the horrible atrocities of the past. And of course, they seek to righteously silence all current Catholics because of the misdeeds of past Catholics.

If you disagree with Catholic opposition to capital punishment, capitalist greed, American imperialism, oppression of immigrants, or whatever, do so by addressing the issue directly instead of bringing up past history on unrelated issues. If you agree with me and condemn the coverups of priests who molest children, or disagree with Catholic opposition to homosexual marriage, use of condoms, and a number of other issues, join me in addressing those issues directly and rationally.

But don't bring up the past in order to condemn the present. That's just not fair. I agree that these past issues are important and that they must be investigated fully. But they're in the past and were committed by people who are mostly dead or over the age of 80. And these things happened in institutions that no longer exist, and nobody would dream of building similar institutions in the current day or any time in the future. The guilt is still there, and will remain forever - but the guilty people are, for the most part, dead...or nearly so.

And don't get all hung up on sex. Think about what elderly celibate bishops are likely to know about sex, and then take what they say for what it's worth. And for that matter, the current practice of the Catholic Church is not to say much about sex - and it's been that way for fifty years, since the fiasco of Humanae Vitae of 1968. Better update your stereotypes.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: LadyJean
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 10:37 PM

American nuns have been arguing with the Pope for years, bless them.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 10:42 PM

Fionn says: In rural Irish communities even in the 1950s, it would have been as hard to defy the Catholic church as it would have been for German youth to defy Hitler.

Fionn, look up the definition of the word "truism."

Yes, I agree that the Catholic Church of Ireland had too much power in the 1950s, and that it had a most unholy alliance with the government.

Now, tell me how your statement applies to rural Irish communities of 2014. Why is it that you people try to make a statement about the present by using all these impassioned references to the past?

Take what's happening now and address it head-on, not by referring to past things done by dead people.

What's that? Do you mean to tell me that you don't have the courage to do that?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 11:03 PM

Hi, LadyJean-

I'm an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy. We're very proud of our nun in Phoenix who was excommunicated for approving an abortion when the mother's life was in danger. There's a subtle but very effective memorial to that event in the original chapel of the Sisters of Mercy on Baggot Street in Dublin - the tabernacle from the chapel of the hospital that the bishop "unconsecrated" in conjunction with the excommunication.

Those darn nuns are very good at practicing the annoying virtues of solidarity and collegiality. It does tend to make the Vatican bureaucrats rather testy.

And while Pope Francis does a lot of good stuff, the Vatican bureaucracy is alive and well - and still quite powerful.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 03:12 AM

But if Catholic teaching is worth a damn, the Irish lot could have been trusted with their political influence in the '50s but turned out to be as corruptible as anyone else.

The Vatican loved this national influence rather than warning about it. Mmmm.

The more Joe injects reality, the more you question the privilege society offers religion. It's alright saying ignore celibate priests when they give advice on sex but listen to them on a n other issue but if you are capable of filtering where they can help you in the first place, why bother asking them?

Or can you trust them to not give advice on matters YOU think they have no expertise?

The day I start pointing out the weaknesses of Sheffield Wednesday is the day I am no longer a true fan.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 04:01 AM

....why this compulsion to dwell on the past? and why this obsession with sex?"
Joe, Joe, Joe,
We learn from the mistakes of the past - or some of us do.
Many of the victims of "the past" are still alive, have had their lives ruined and are entitled to some sort of recognition of that fact from the perpetrators of the crimes that blighted their lives.
Following the Holocaust, the survivors declared that such a thing should never happen again, they advocated that those responsible should be punished and their crimes revealed - they even set up museums in order that these events should be remembered.
Germany has made Holocaust denial a crime.
Would you deny them the right to have done this?
The church today - certainly here in Ireland - is fighting tooth-and-nail to maintain it's right to educate children.
It is using its (diminishing) power to control laws on homosexuality and on pregnancy termination, its main weapon in this being spiritual blackmail as it has lost its political clout.
You have ignored and refused to respond to every single salient point of these events.
Your church has yet to acknowledge the damage they did to peoples lives - they/you were dragged kicking and screaming, to answering for their part in child abuse, in the Laundries, the Industrial Schools, the "homes for fallen women" - the sale of children hasn't fueled yet, never mind taken off.
The Philomena Lee case didn't just uncover a past horrendous practice, but the continuing cruelty of the perpetrators right up to the present day - not in the dim and distant past - if you haven't, I suggest you go and see the film, if for no other reason that to prepare yourself for more of the same.
Those of us who lived under the influence of Catholicism were burdened with guilt for being what we were - that was always the church's 'thing', yet the church has not shown a shred of contrition for what it did - even those who have accepted it wish to male it a thing of the past.
""Jim, Jim, Jim"
If you go in for mantras Joe - try "never aain, never again, never again".

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 06:41 AM

By the way,
I didn't respond my "obsession" with sex because I thought it beyond words - would that I still had the luxury of such an obsession.
It is the church's obsession with sex that filled these institutions with "sinners" which enabled them to be abused the way they were.
It was the churches "obsession" with sex that destroyed an important cultural pastime.
That "obsession" continues with the church's persecution of other people'sexuality.
Please tell me the rape of children by clergymen taking advantage of their authority, has nothing to do with sex - that really will make my day!!
If the mantra I suggested doesn't work for you, try "mea maxima culpa X 1000" that might do the trick!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 07:15 AM

Joe, you yourself recognise that the Vatican bureaucracy is resisting Francis' clear instructions to clean the ship. I've seen similar instructions in Belgium go utterly disregarded for five years and more. The Pope counts as nothing these days, and so if the ship's determined to remain a cesspit, there's not a thing to be done to defend the image that it's a part of paradise.
Sure, the cesspit may contain chunks of undigested food which are utterly palateable if the external corruption is cleansed away and the result cut back. But it doesn't alter the fact that a cesspit is a cespit is a cesspit and not even the injection of Holy Innocents can change that.
Your actions are clearly virtuous in and of themselves and have no effect on the moral values of others of your fellowship. They would be equally virtuous if performed by a followwer of another religion, an agnostic, or an atheist. They give no credit beyond the do-er of the deed, it's not Rome which makes you moral, but you. That may come from your inmost faith, but as Matt 5-8 points out, that is intrinsic to you and nothing to do with your Church. Your Church does not make you virtuous, nor your virtue the Church, nor is it exclusive to Roman Catholicism.
So stop conflating the acts of pew fodder with the organised, endemic perversion of a faith your heirarchy has become, in part proactively, predominantly tacitly through its refusal to cast out the recalcitrantly sinful. However much you might wish a turd become a steak, a turd it is, and a turd it will remain until its internal corruption breaks it down to useful manure. Perhaps it's time for Rome to start over from scratch, in other words, pay off all those who make a living from HolyJoeing, liquidate the assets and start doing the real-world work it's supposed to.
The eternal Steeple Fund campaign in an area where people are starving is to my mind putrid. It's time to attend to the real Commandments and not the heirarchy.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 07:20 AM

Mr. Carroll, your impassioned exhortations are ninety percent rhetoric, and ten percent truth - and the examples you use as "proof," while mostly truthful, are 100 percent irrelevant.

The child molestation scandal is indeed a scandal, and it should never have happened. However, there is no evidence that its occurrence is significantly higher among priests, than it is among the male population in general.

And, as I have said so many times before, institutions such as the mother and baby homes and industrial schools and Magdalene Laundries, no longer exist. Your suggestion that a museum be built to tell the story of how people suffered in these institutions, is a good one.

As for the sex obsession, that was another age. Certainly some vestiges remain, but the Catholic Church is mostly out of its Victorian attitudes about sex. As for homosexuality and homosexual marriage, church attitudes seem to be slowly coming around, as they are in the population in general. If you want proof, go to the Vatican Website and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church and other documents, and take note of how few of the materials there have anything to do with sex. Time to update your stereotypes, Jim.

You say, "The church today - certainly here in Ireland - is fighting tooth-and-nail to maintain it's right to educate children."

[I should make a comment here that if nothing else, I learned the correct use of the apostrophe in Catholic school.]

Now, your statement is hard for me as an American to understand. I chose to send my kids to Catholic schools, and I paid every penny of the cost of their education. The primary reason for my choice was that Catholic schools offered an education that I thought was far better than that offered in tax-supported schools (which I paid for but didn't use). My children had some contact with priests and nuns in school, but most of their teachers were lay people.

Now, what is it about the setup of schools in Ireland that makes Catholic schools objectionable to you? Why shouldn't parents have the right to choose to send their children to whatever school they choose? Because of the history of the institutions in the first half of the twentieth century? Why not evaluate the current record of Catholic schools in Ireland, instead of dwelling on past history?

---

Unnamed guest, whoever you are, you say: Your actions are clearly virtuous in and of themselves and have no effect on the moral values of others of your fellowship. They would be equally virtuous if performed by a followwer of another religion, an agnostic, or an atheist. They give no credit beyond the do-er of the deed, it's not Rome which makes you moral, but you. That may come from your inmost faith, but as Matt 5-8 points out, that is intrinsic to you and nothing to do with your Church. Your Church does not make you virtuous, nor your virtue the Church, nor is it exclusive to Roman Catholicism.

The Germans might respond, "Na und?" (And so?). Please tell me when I have ever claimed that the Catholic Church is virtuous. Some of its members are virtuous, and some are not. Therefore, one has to evaluate the individuals. It is a fallacy to issue a blanket condemnation of the Catholic Church as a whole (as you have done), for that is the essence of bigotry.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 07:44 AM

I have an obsession with sex. On account of being the male of the species.

Even if I don't seem to be alpha male domestically. (Mrs Musket, pet greyhound, poor third.)

Religions are very jealous contraptions. Most of them don't like to see you enjoy yourself in any meaningful way, let alone sexually, and inject a sense of shame. Fuck that for a game of soldiers. It is this hateful philosophy that eventually leads to the awful controlling influence it has on superstitious vulnerable people. Left to run riot without accountability, you end up with the tragic situations such as these.

A fair few years ago, it was a popular joke to say that in some parts of Ireland, Father Ted was thought to be a fly on the wall documentary. Not quite so funny comparison now.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 07:44 AM

'Now, what is it about the setup of schools in Ireland that makes Catholic schools objectionable to you? Why shouldn't parents have the right to choose to send their children to whatever school they choose?'

To understand this in an Irish context Joe, you need to know what the situation in Ireland is. This has been up for discussion here several times but I'll outline it again: There is no choice of school in Ireland where it comes to religion. You go to a Catholic school and are forced to subscribe to the (Catholic) ethos of the school.

True, multi-denominational schools have been on the rise in the last decade (non denominational or non religious is still many steps to far apparently) but in reality this is not a viable choice in many locations, especially in rural Ireland.

So the reality is, children are exposed to many hours of religious education, visits by and talks with the PP and are prepared for their communions and what have you as part of the curriculum. Some school principals may or may not allow your child to sit these things out and read, in a corner but not all will be as understanding towards the non religious.

The church is, lets say, not eager to cooperate with any efforts to change the school system. And quality, you say? Well sure there are decent schools, overall though, don't get me started.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 08:01 AM

Hi, Peter-

If attendance at a church school is compulsory, I wouldn't agree with that, either. That's a recipe for mediocrity, not to mention that it's unfair to force religion on those who do not wish to practice it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 08:22 AM

"Mr. Carroll, your impassioned exhortations are ninety percent rhetoric"
No they are not Joe - and your problem appears to be that you are totally incapable of addressing the truth
Everything I have claimed is based on the reality of a church with unassailable power
If anything I have claimed is untrue, then feel free to disprove it with argument, rather than throwing stones in the form of labels from a distance.
"However, there is no evidence that its occurrence is significantly higher among priests, than it is among the male population in general."
Totally immaterial in the circumstances where priests had spiritual power and control over those they were raping.
It was the church who turned sex into a regrettable necessity and it was the representatives of the church who abused children using the power that the church gave them.
"tell the story of how people suffered in these institutions, is a good one"
It was not my suggestion, nor is it one of my particular desires, as things stand, though the monument that has been proposes has been greeted by an offer of a minuscule amount of money from one church group
The Magdalene girls weren't so lucky - they were told to piss off and look elsewhere, the "sweepings of the street" that they were.
As far as church education is concerned - parents do not have the right to choose the type of education for their children here, or in many Catholic countries - it is a case of having a Catholic education or staying uneducated.
The growing demand is that education should be either downgraded or removed entirely from the educational curriculum.
If the church wishes to provide for parents who want more, then they should provide classes outside the mainstream educational system for same.   
Given what has passed, these should be closely scrutinised - the church has proved beyond doubt that they are not to be trusted where children are concerned.
Jim Carroll

One more time - the argument in full:
FAITH SCHOOLS ARE DIVISIVE. LET'S GET RID OF THEM
A state education should celebrate all religions equally. Churches, synagogues and mosques can teach the devout
When I was a teenager I was fascinated by the Jewish boarding school a few fields away from our house. The local children barely ever saw any orthodox pupils leave their citadel. Occasionally they would ask us to buy them pork scratchings at the local garage, which they would eat illicitly by the river.
Theirs was a different world. Girls and boys didn't swim together. They couldn't even turn on a light bulb on Saturdays; they performed no Shakespeare because he was considered antisemitic; and they had hours of Hebrew each week.
Still I rather wanted to go there: it had amazing sports and music facilities and was only five minutes from home. But I couldn't because, my parents explained, I wasn't Jewish. Instead I went to a school a bus ride away, which was once run by Anglican nuns but now catered for every denomination. We had the occasional church service with a few beautiful hymns, there was an option to be confirmed and pupils could wear discreet crosses or headscarves. My friends were Church of England, Plymouth Brethren, Catholic and Jewish. We learnt about every faith and I went to bar mitzvahs as well as confirmations. It showed me a wide and tolerant world.
So I have always felt uneasy about fervently religious schools. They seem to teach exactly the opposite of what education should be about — to give pupils all the facts and allow them to discover their beliefs for themselves. The issue resurfaced when my husband was a governor of our local school which had a large
If we had Muslim or Catholic NHS hospitals there'd be an outcry
number of pupils from Morocco. An imam was trying to stop the pupils from drawing pictures or playing sport together. The head teacher was desperate and Christian parents began to complain that their children were being excluded. The local authority eventually intervened and the imam, who was in Britain illegally, was deported.
Twenty years later I feel even more strongly that that there is something disquieting about faith schools. We. accept them because they often achieve great results and have good discipline, something that has been missing from the British state education system recently. There are so few excellent schools, the argument goes, that we must protect those that excel, however they do it.
This is partly why the schools caught up in the Trojan Horse row, which were secular but prioritised Islam, were allowed to continue without much scrutiny — their grades were generally good.
It is also partly why, I suspect, Tony Blair, David Cameron and Michael Gove have all chosen faith schools for their children. They like the ethos and the results.
But it is an anomaly to allow publicly funded schools to choose their intake, overtly or covertly, on religious background only. No other state-funded institution is exempt from the Equality Act. There would be an outcry if there were exclusively Jewish, Catholic or Muslim NHS hospitals.
The French with their new charter for secularism in schools have been too aggressive, banning the wearing of hijabs and crosses and preventing discussion of religion. But in America, a more religious country than Britain, they have a system set up 50 years ago whereby schools cannot proselytise or promote one religion, but children's differing faiths are celebrated and accepted.
In Britain we could do the same. Nearly 16 per cent of children attend schools that select on religious identity. Instead of encouraging more faith schools as the Department for Education is now doing, we should gradually phase out religious selection in state-funded
No creed should make girls, gays or non¬believers feel inferior
establishments. High morals and good discipline shouldn't be the preserve of the devout.
There is no reason why schools that are not faith-based cannot be every bit as good as those that are. Part of the reason that faith schools excel is because their exclusive entry precludes many children from more disadvantaged backgrounds. Church of England schools admit 10 per cent fewer pupils eligible for free school meals than live in their catchment area, RC schools admit 24 per cent fewer, Muslim schools 25 per cent and Jewish schools 61 per cent.
I want my children to enjoy discovering Hinduism and Jainism as
well as the stories from the Koran and the Bible —they are all now part of Britain's broader culture.
In our fragmented society schools can be one of the few ways to bring people of differing cultures together and encourage inclusiveness. In Northern Ireland, where schools have long been divided on religious grounds, the effects have been coruscating. We need to teach children empathy, tolerance, respect for others and the importance of a cohesive society where everyone's beliefs and views are valued as long as they don't impinge on others. The best place for this is at school. Girls, gays or non-believers should not be made to feel inferior by any creed. Education should be the enemy of rabid extremism because it should encourage children to question and think for themselves.
Devout parents can still teach their children at home about their own beliefs; they can enrol their children at Sunday classes, hold Shabbat dinners or take the family to their mosque.
But schools should abide by the words of Thomas Paine, the philosopher who argued against institutionalised religion more than 200 years ago: "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren and to do good is my religion."

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 08:52 AM

If attendance at a church school is compulsory, I wouldn't agree with that, either. That's a recipe for mediocrity, not to mention that it's unfair to force religion on those who do not wish to practice it.

Yet Joe, that's the de facto situation. 90% of National (=primary) education is in the hands of the school. In many areas that will mean that there is no choice. I don't have the figures for secondary schools but the de facto situation in the area where I live is again not one of choice. Enrolment of pupils will only be accepted by the various schools if the parents sign a declaration they will support and subscribe to the schools' catholic ethos. At this point my son is in college, there again the school is very clear about the 'ethos' they follow.

Yes, mediocrity. And that's an understatement.

There are attempts by the government to have 50% of catholic schools as they exist change to a non religious management in order to provide choice for parents. The process is slow, as I said, the church is not eager to loosen the reins.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 12:59 PM

I took a look at the Vatican website, and found prominently the very lengthy "Apostolic exhortation" on evangelization and promulgation of the faith.
The thrust is to encourage Catholics to act as St. Paul pronounced, "Woe to me if I do not proclaim the gospel."
Other groups also have taken this as "gospel," so we find Jehovah's Witless ringing our doorbell.
I find all evangelism aimed at conversions or recruitment repulsive, regardless of their listing of good deeds and actions.

The Catechism also is a very long and involved. Looking at the section on baptism in the section on sacraments, "Baptism of Infants...... Born with a fallen human nature and tainted with original sin, children also have need of the new birth in baptism to be freed from the power of darkness....."

Primitive superstition abounds throughout this section; one can visualize early humans huddled in the safety of their campfire, fearfully looking over their shoulders into the surrounding darkness

Reading through the catechism, It is easy to see how various groups within the church develop rules and superstitions of their own which can lead to the horrors of the treatment of unwed mothers and their babies, leading to their deaths since they are unworthy of baptism.
I remember. at one New Mexico Catholic graveyard, the unkempt plot without markers outside the fence of the consecrated, well-tended area, for those who were unbaptized or excommunicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 02:08 PM

Using the Curate's Egg as an argument does not offer you much credit, Joe: it is you who are bigotted, turning a blind eye to the core corruption in the centre of your creed. Eleven days, eleven days it is since the problem arose, and what has your Church done? Diddly squat. All mouth and no trousers.
The Garda are taking the "Nothing happened, move on" stance. The Government are not talking about doing, but how to do, which means they're not doing. As ever, the problem's in the past - except it isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 02:14 PM

I recall our more pious members complaining when I said that it is difficult to discuss some subjects with religious people as they lack objective intelligence where superstition is concerned.

I had a quick gander at the website too Q. It answers so many questions as to why children and vulnerable adults need protecting from religions. Here in The UK, we are hand wringing over Islamic influence in state schools. Meanwhile, children are being dressed as brides in a rather sinister Christian ritual.

Toss a coin if you must differentiate but membership and participation in religious cults should be the free wish of adults, not brainwashed children.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 04:49 PM

So are the children of the unwed still denied "baptism" in the Catholic Church ?       And the doctrine that children are born with a sin nature is a biblical doctrine. Are you saying that Christians are not to believe the bible? I should have thought that would be expected.       Seems strange to me that even though joe does not excuse the crimes of clerics and nuns, and even is a "progressive"catholic, that you are going after him so strongly and persistently.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 05:22 PM

Using a dramatic style all too common in this thread, our unnamed Guest says: Eleven days, eleven days it is since the problem arose, and what has your Church done?

There's no doubt that the story of the mother-and-baby homes is a serious one, but most of the story has been known for a long time. While the recent book and film titled Philomena covered a different institution, it was clear that story applied to most or all of the institutions. What problem was it that arose eleven days ago, Guest? It has been public record that there were 796 deaths at the Tuam home in the 44 years from 1925 to 1961. This was 18 deaths a year. People in the community have known for decades that the bodies of the children were buried in the graveyard on the grounds. In 1975, two ten-year-old boys found perhaps 20 skeletons in a hole in the ground with a concrete cover, and some people speculated the hole was a septic tank. The Garda searched the grounds and found no bodies in a septic tank.

So, what's the urgent problem?

In many ways, one could say that the problem was mostly resolved in 1961, by the closing of the institution. It does appear that the clients of the institution were treated poorly, so the institutions were closed for good reason. There are also reports that children at the Tuam home were used to test vaccines. There is no doubt that the history of these homes must be investigated fully, along with the industrial schools and the Magdalene Laundries.

But rushing to answer unfounded claims of bodies in a septic tank? I can't see any reason for that. Better to take the time to investigate the entire situation fully and correctly.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 06:11 PM

It does appear that the clients of the institution were treated poorly.

Hmmm..... starving children to death is "treating them poorly".

I suppose lynching Black folks was also "treating them poorly" in your book, Joe?

And the same book would have us forget about both, because they "happened in the past"?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 06:33 PM

bias and memory 

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 07:12 PM

Most of us hope that history will judge our actions by the standards of our time.

Abusing, and failing to provide for the young under our care was not considered a reasonable standard in civilized society for some time. I suspect (and hope) this will not change much into the future

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 07:31 PM

As a scientist who used evolutionary change through time throughout my career to determine geologic sequences of sedimentary rocks and to identify determine past environmental conditions, mostly in aid of petroleum exploration, I regard the encyclical "Humani generis" at the Vatican website as complete nonsense.

In our supposedly enlightened age it is superstition that leads to statements such as "some imprudently and indiscreetly hold that evolution, which has not been fully proved even in the domain of natural sciences..." "and audaciously support the monastic and pantheistic opinion that the world is in continual evolution." "Communists gladly subscribe to this opinion..." "Dialectical materialism."

The Catholic Church is the great fount of superstition in our world; it is not alone, but the brain-washing tactics of this giant structure do the most damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 08:04 PM

But then, Q, you might consider that Humani Generis was written in 1950, and that it was a great advance for its time - a major step toward the general acceptance of evolution by Catholics. In 1945, Pius XII gave official approval to modern methods of scripture study, thereby abandoning the last vestiges of biblical fundamentalism. By the time I got to college in a Catholic seminary in 1966, I was taught that evolution was a fact.

I think it's important to consider these things in the context of the times when they happened. If you want to evaluate the Catholic Church, I'd suggest that you focus your attention on the last twenty-five years. Most things that happened before the Second Vatican Council (1962-65) are irrelevant. There are places (notably Ireland and Poland) where the Catholic Church has evolved much more slowly, but even they have changed significantly since Vatican II.

I'm sorry you didn't like Evangelii Gaudium, the recent "apostolic exhortation" by Pope Francis. Perhaps it will comfort you to know that when Catholics evangelize, they wait until a person walks in the door and starts asking questions. I'm sure some overzealous Catholics will prove me wrong and find a call to start preaching door-to-door, but I don't think that will become a common practice. I find Evangelii Gaudium (The Joy of the Gospel) to be a refreshing change in attitude. Notice that Francis says, "It is not by proselytizing that the Church grows, but 'by attraction'”.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 08:23 PM

"Most things that happened before the Second Vatican Council (1962-65) are irrelevant."


Wow!

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 08:55 PM

Vatican II was a major housecleaning, Ed. It was a time of really honest introspection, and many of the medievalisms that allowed such things as the Magdalene Laundries, were cast aside. To a great extent, much of the theological work done after Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) was ignored, as was much of the doctrine promulgated during those 700 years after Aquinas. It was recognized that the Church had been a political entity for most of the millennium, and much was done to move away from involvement in political intrigue. Still, the Catholic Church is deeply flawed. And we have far more than our fair share of hypocrites.

So, no, it's not fair to judge the Catholic Church primarily by things that happened before Vatican II. That being said, the peak of child molestation by priests seems to have been 1970-1985 in both the U.S. and Europe, and I don't know why. At least in the U.S., the Catholic Church spent millions of dollars on programs that were supposed to cure molesting priests. Unfortunately, the programs didn't work like the bishops expected them to.

And I will repeat that it is simply not fair to judge the current Catholic Church or anyone by what happened in the mother and baby homes, the industrial schools, and the Magdalene Laundries. These institutions had largely been abandoned by the mid-1980s, and rightly so. All of the voices above who condemn these institutions, are correct in doing so - and I join them in their condemnation, even though they did not invite me to do so. Nonetheless, in the name of fairness, I repeat that if you wish to find fault with an institution, you had better be prepared to use more recent evidence.

And Jim Carroll, please note that I agree with you that it is wrong for religious schools to be the only option available to taxpayers who wish to educate their children. Non-religious schools must be the primary education system. When religion is supported by taxes, religion becomes beholden to political interests.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 12:09 AM

Joe asked "Now, tell me how your statement applies to rural Irish communities of 2014."

OK, so it applies a little less now than 30 years ago. But the church has lost ground only because of a succession of shameful episodes coming to light that it did everything in its power to suppress, and which would be quietly forgotten if Joe had his way.

If I were to put a date on when the hierarchy started to lose its grip, I'd say it was in 1992 with the revelation that Bishop Eamon Casey was the father of a grown-up son whose upbringing - like that of many other sons of clerics - had been part funded from church collecting plates. Even then, many in rural Ireland who had been taught to ostracise and condemn "fallen women" could not bring themselves to question a bishop, and for RTE's fawning Gay Byrne, Casey was still a fine man. But in Dublin, tee-shirts started to appear with advice to "Wear a condom, just in Casey" - the hierarchy's first real taste of open ridicule.

A couple of years later apparent church-state collusion concerning the imfamous paedophile Father Brendan Smyth brought the collapse of Ireland's government. That was followed by many more revelations of corruption and abuse, and evidence of the hierarchy's extraordinary tenacity in trying to protect its own interests.

And as Peter Laban noted, the church still works hard at getting into young minds. It seems you didn't know, Joe, that most people in Ireland have access only to Catholic schools. But then it seems there's quite a lot you did't know, like the fact that the last Magdalene asylum closed in 1996, some 30-odd years after Vatican II.

I know you have some experience of your church's operations beyond the US, so I am baffled that you persistently argue as though your US experiences are the norm.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:11 AM

Am I the only one who noticed pete's contribution?

Something about the bible justifying the concept of children born with sin.

An interesting question. Can an old book justify crime?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:25 AM

Fionn says: But the church has lost ground only because of a succession of shameful episodes coming to light that it did everything in its power to suppress, and which would be quietly forgotten if Joe had his way.

Which is not correct. I would never seek to suppress the truth, but I do see the truth as important. I do admit to taking some delight in seeing oppressive prelates get the comeuppance they deserve, but I think there's also a need for fairness that gets lost amidst the rashe generalizations that are so common here. I think things need to be seen in proper perspective and proportion, and thus I object to the anachronistic hysteria that is so common here. What I see here at Mudcat is constant condemnation of the Catholic Church, usually based on half truths or distorted implications or long-ago events - e.g., Brainwashing from birth, small children forced to wear brides costumes in a grotesque ritual, bodies in a septic tank, Joe's desire to bury the past would exculpate the Nazis....


All these things make for a distorted, bigoted view. Yes, there are many wrong things in the history of the Catholic Church. But they must be viewed through realistic eyes, not shrouded with the language and hysteria of bigotry.

Yes, the last of the Magdalene Laundries closed in 1996, but tell us how many such institutions were extant at the time and how many were living in them, and what their living conditions were at the time the institutions closed. Same with the other institutions. While a few may have remained into the 1980s or even later, the conditions within them had greatly improved. I don't deny the existence of these institutions or the harshness of conditions in them when they were at their worst. All I ask is that in the name of fairness, they should be addressed factually.

All my life, I've been in the forefront of those seeking change in the Catholic Church, and I have actively opposed many of the same things you people have opposed. But I believe in fairness and proportion, not hysteria and constant distortion of the facts.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 04:09 AM

Joe:
"Rushing to judgement"
The clerical sex abuse scandals first began to emerge in the 1990s - around 15 years ago - hardly a "rush to judgement" by anybody's standards.
The Church impeded any in-depth enquiries into them at every step of the way and it continues to refuse to pass on information on them.
The realism is that the church should not be allowed to hold the power and influence it still seeks to retain.
Religion still, in fact, controls the education system here, and through it, the minds of the future citizens of Ireland, they have never been given any other choice
I have little doubt that, had a referendum been called on the matter twenty years ago, there might have considerable support for the church's position.
I am equally sure that, should a referendum be held today, there would be little support for it, both because of the revelations of Church behaviour and the necessity of getting the most practical education possible to survive in a world where young people are almost certainly going to be forced to emigrate to survive - as one devout Catholic told me in an interview "the church has done more to keep my belly empty than it has to put a meal on the table".
It has always been a foregone conclusion that the church should have control of education - that has ceased to be the case.
That is the parental freedom "to send children to the school of their choice you talk about" - one that they have never really had.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 05:14 AM

the Catholic Church spent millions of dollars on programs that were supposed to cure molesting priests. Unfortunately, the programs didn't work like the bishops expected them to.

The victims were denied any voice in the process because the Church adopted the rapists' perspective and saw them as worthless scum. Of course it wasn't going to work given that attitude. An abuser could be confident of continued secrecy.


And I will repeat that it is simply not fair to judge the current Catholic Church or anyone by what happened in the mother and baby homes, the industrial schools, and the Magdalene Laundries. These institutions had largely been abandoned by the mid-1980s, and rightly so.

In Glasgow they weren't abandoned because of any change of heart by the Church. The prisoners in Lochburn Asylum organized a mass escape in 1958 which hit the headlines and forced the state to step in. That was well before Vatican II. I suspect the same was true elsewhere - liberation came from the victims standing up for themselves, not by freedom being granted from above.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 05:19 AM

Any normal society has another slush fund to deal with molesting priests. It's called the justice and penal budget, consisting of courts and prisons.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 05:25 AM

what puzzles me Joe is why, when you are living in such a liberated society, you are so keen stick up for this church which has been up to all sorts of repressive skulduggery, for as long as anyone can remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 05:44 AM

"Most things that happened before the Second Vatican Council (1962-65) are irrelevant."

"So, no, it's not fair to judge the Catholic Church primarily by things that happened before Vatican II."

There seems to be two discussions going on at the same time. One, the broader church and religion, and the other, cases of abuse of children some type by those in the church specific locations.

It seems problematic to make a general statement/assessment as you have done in the first quote, Joe, since it is likely that some of the people in positions of power over children and in church affairs most likely retained their power and church influence beyond the event you noted.

The second statement has more logic, mainly because you use the word "primarily" in that case.

Of course people will judge organizations by all events, past and present. Organizations do not absolve themselves from responsiblity for past events by saying "we had a meeting and we have changed". Branding an organization is more complex than that and takes time and with real-examples exemplifying thhis change. IMO, attempts at denying unfortunate past events happened, or attempts to limit their significance, takes away, rather then reinforces an embedded view that real change has actually not occured. As with other large organizations, fir example GM, expect that any new reports of bad actions will renew memories of bad past evenrs.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 05:55 AM

It seems apparent from this mornings papers that state and church-run mental homes are to be added to the list of enquiries now being demanded.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 06:33 AM

Link to the article Jim is referring to

It would seem to make sense as both mother and child homes and the mental institutions were used in Ireland to lock away elements that didn't fit in with the desired order of society. Left there to rot, safely out of sight, one could argue.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 06:42 AM

Michael provided the legal side. There is no statute of limitation when investigating alleged murder, so this talk of Vatican councils is irrelevant. The starving and disposal of bodies took place in a country where the law allows criminals to be held to account, should they still be alive, as far back as you like.

Talk of judging religious cults and organisations doesn't come Into it. People on Irish soil at the time of alleged crimes are the only creatures needing judging.

Judgement is secular, and judged by secular standards. Hiding behind superstition is hopefully no defence. Following orders has a well known legal precedent for that matter.....

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:46 PM

Joe insists that the church is shedding its old ways, but read the encyclicals at the Vatican website, and it is evident that the old superstitions are still central to their (and those of Francis)beliefs.

www.vatican.va (select English)

The encyclical letter by Francis, "Lumen fidei," offers little except re-affirmation of the old ways.
"The light of autonomous reason is not enough to illumine the future...The future remains shadowy and fraught with fear of the unknown....Truth itself..... incapable of showing the way."

The lengthy article offers little that shows an advance in attitude to science over the days of Galileo.
Attitudes remain, e. g.:
Francis discusses the faith of Israel but immediately goes into discussion of the "Fullness of the Faith" (Christian).

Salvation, and a chapter entitled "Unless you believe you will not understand " follow, all pointing out that his way is the only way,
"The Dialogue Between Faith and Reason" - of course in his mind faith wins.
Near the end of chapter two, he comments on theology, "Theology cannot consider the magisterium of the pope and the bishops in communion with him as something extrinsic, a limitation of its freedom, but rather as one of its internal, constitutive dimensions....." The substance is that Frsncis and his bishops are the sole interpreters and must be followed.

The encyclical goes on in two more chapters, all in all, offering nothing new and no evolving thought, just reaffirmation of the old beliefs.

The current directors of the church offer nothing that would change the ways of the executors- the clergy, the groups such as Franciscans and Jesuits, act.

Faith schools continue to be divisive, as noted in preceding material posted by Jim Carroll. Even here in Alberta, some communities where the French influence is strong, the beliefs of the RC are given priority.

I still would not permit a pregnancy in the family to be assisted in a Catholic-run hospital, where the baby is given precedence, if it came to saving the life of one or the other. I wonder how many cases of this type were decided by the Bon Secours women.

Joe continues to talk about conditions in the U. S., but in magnitude they are different in the countries to the south, Mexico to Argentina, or the Philippines and some areas in Africa where the faith has been sold.

We do not know if conditions leading to those that existed in Ireland persist in large area of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:55 PM

Joe, please try to understand that this is not just about history. The catholic church has never voluntarily abandoned its criminal ways. It only ever does so when confronted by irresistible protest, which sometimes requires more courage than the hierarchy expects from what should be a docile flock. But the battle is far from won.

A disgusting criminal, Sean O'Brady, sits to this day in pompous office not just as a bishop, or even an archbishop, but as primate of all Ireland and a cardinal to boot. Read here how he helped the monstrous pervert Brendan Smyth pursue a career in child abuse - and then had the brass neck to appeal to the forgiving Christian insticts of the Irish. Yep, still in office Joe. Still dishing out bread and wine to those gullible enough to think it turns to bits of Jesus in their mouths, and still preaching Christian values. Until these arrogant clerics are treated like the scum they are, the fight must go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 05:43 PM

"Contemporary Ireland feigned shock when stories of the Laundries and residential institutions emerged. Perhaps the shock of those who were too young to be threatened with being put in one for "acting up" was genuine, because the institutions started to close as the years went on. But people in their fifties and sixties now, will remember how the "Home Babies" sometimes came to schools, and were isolated by other (legitimate) children, and then sometimes never came back. While those school-children may not have comprehended fully the extent of what happened, their parents and teachers, and the community of adults surrounding them knew."

from

http://feministire.wordpress.com/2014/06/03/no-country-for-young-women-honour-crimes-and-infanticide-in-ireland/

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:54 PM

Aha!

A perfect example of Jim Carroll's usual legerdemain, the old bait-and-switch trick.

My comment was about "rushing to answer unfounded claims of bodies in a septic tank."

Jim's response: The clerical sex abuse scandals first began to emerge in the 1990s - around 15 years ago - hardly a "rush to judgement" by anybody's standards.

This thread is about the allegation that there were 796 bodies in a septic tank, and the cries for immediate justice that ensued - and have continued even after the septic tank allegations were discovered to be unfounded. There are still indignant cries in the press about the failure of Catholic authorities to jump into the cesspool.

Caught you red-handed, Jim, up to your usual tricks. Why don't you fight fair for a change?

Fionn does the same thing - I don't know how many years he's been trying to prove me a holocaust denier. Fionn's fallacy is so shallow - and so common - that it has a name now: argumentum ad Hitlerum.

Oh, and then (despite the fact I have a negative view of Cardinal Brady), look at Fionn's overblown statement above: A disgusting criminal, Sean O'Brady, sits to this day in pompous office not just as a bishop, or even an archbishop, but as primate of all Ireland and a cardinal to boot. Read here how he helped the monstrous pervert Brendan Smyth pursue a career in child abuse - and then had the brass neck to appeal to the forgiving Christian insticts of the Irish.
Brady's reputation as a "disgusting criminal" apparently stems from the fact that as a young priest in 1975, Brady was present when two of Smyth's victims signed a silence agreement after receiving a settlement of their claims against a diocese for Smyth's conduct. Fionn's flair for drama is indeed remarkable, but the significance of his remarks remains in question.

I see all sorts of rhetoric here, but most of it distorts the facts far out of proportion to their reality. I'm beginning to think that all the allegations against the mother and baby homes, the laundries, and the industrial schools are far out of proportion, too. I have no doubt that conditions in these institutions were harsh - and that was wrong. But then I read a number of accounts from people who had lived in these institutions, and I found that the conditions were about the same level of harshness and cruelty that was experienced by U.S. Army recruits in the 1960s and early 1970s. Recruits were battered with demeaning taunts, worked beyond the point of exhaustion, awakened in the middle of the night for no reason, given physical punishment for the most insignificant failures, forced to do heavy exertion when sick, and generally demeaned and battered until they were forced into submission. The death rate in Army basic training was quite high, and spinal meningitis spread like wildfire. This was done to "build strong fighting men." But it was also cruel and unnecessary. But those were the times - people seemed to think that abuse "builds character."

By the way, there were mother and baby homes in England, too - see http://www.motherandbabyhomes.com/.

No doubt, the mother and baby homes and the other institutions need to be studied in depth - not only in Ireland, and not only those institutions that were run by Catholics.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:31 PM

So, no one wants to discuss the complicity of the Irish people? Fucking wonderful. The lot of you!

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:56 PM

Big Al Whittle says: what puzzles me Joe is why, when you are living in such a liberated society, you are so keen stick up for this church which has been up to all sorts of repressive skulduggery, for as long as anyone can remember.

I know about the skullduggery, Al. It does exist, and I have often had to deal with it. But skullduggery exists wherever you go - it's part of the reality of life. But my experience of the Catholic Church, like that of most Catholics I know, has been 96 percent good and four percent bad.

But it's the four percent that gets covered in the press, and in Internet forum discussions like this one.

#, you're not allowed to mention "complicity of the Irish people" here. I once dared to suggest that all those priests and nuns and cardinals were children of Irish mothers, and I was called a liar. The truth, they say, is that those priests and nuns were spawned in a tank in the Sistine Chapel, ordained, and delivered to Ireland in black submarines in the dark of night.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 02:09 AM

I suppose, although I wouldn't wish to see it as a defence, that when you are force fed your morality by priests and nuns all your life, complicity has a diminished responsibility aspect to it.

Complicity means you never challenged the criminals as they claimed their right under their God, whilst reminding you he is your God too.

Deep ingrained superstition, the fuel of corruption.

Time for Voltaire methinks;

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 03:57 AM

"Caught you red-handed, Jim, up to your usual tricks. Why don't you fight fair for a change?"
What on earth are you talking about Joe
The facts of clerical physical abuse have been with us for virtually all of my lifetime - the brutality of the Christian Brothers affected a number of my friend
A couple decades ago the horrors of the industrial schools were examined and exposed.
Clerical sexual abuse has been brought into the open, investigated, confirmed and has yet to be dealt with fully.
The extent of this will never be known due to the silence brought on by the shame of such abuse, but even what evidence there exists because of the Vatican's refusal to hand over documents
It is 20 years since The Magdalene laundries first hit the fan - those responsible are still refusing to acknowledge guilt or contribute to agreed compensation, and have now moved on to verbally abusing their victims.
Those of us who have commented on the latest horrors have made it clear, as have those who are in the process of examining them, that this is part of the ethos of the church - not something new - it is how the church behaved and, some of us believe, wou;d continue to behave if they were allowed to - it is taking the record of the accused into consideration before passing sentence (or in this case, before allowing the church to remain in positions where they could re-offend).
You dishonestly refer to "septic tanks" - you have never had the good grace or honesty to admit that it was I who warned against the use of such an emotive term, to the extent of producing a lengthy article on what these burial places might have been - I expressed my disgust at your suggestion that a septic tank was a suitable place for a burial - no more.
I also pointed out that it was possible that some of the bodies may have been Famine victims.      
When every one of these cases has been raised, you have stonewalled in defence of the church - every single one.
You blamed the parents for knowing about the sexual abuse and allowing it to take place.
On all these matters, you have claimed it as a thing of the past, committed by people now dead who are not here to defend themselves.
Nowhere have you held your hands up and accepted that the power invested in the church as an organisation was and remains wrong.
Peter, I and others have reacted to revelations that are daily coming out in our press, nothing more - may of these abuses have been known about for decades - the treatment of "illegitimate" (the term is a form of abuse in itself) children went on record in the 1940s and was not brought to public notice then
Extreme clerical brutality in education has been a known fact throughout my lifetime - never acted on.
Sexual abuse of children was treated as a fact of life throughout the church, but kept secret, never acted upon other than to pass on the perpetrators to other places when their abuse became excessive.
The revelations of these abuses are ongoing - we have yet to find if there is any basis for the suggestions of abuse of mental patients, or whether the government and administrators of these homes allowed the inmates to be used as guinea-pigs for the testing of untried drugs - all to come.
What are we expected to do - sit on our hands and say nothing until everl last case is done and dusted, and in the meantime allow the church to be held in respect and continue to give them access to the nations children - is that what you would do?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 06:29 AM

Some thoughts from a Redemptorist priest in today;'s Irish Times:


Rite & Reason : The cumulative effect of scandals has a devastating effect of the church

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 07:01 AM

"I suppose, although I wouldn't wish to see it as a defence, that when you are force fed your morality by priests and nuns all your life, complicity has a diminished responsibility aspect to it.

Complicity means you never challenged the criminals as they claimed their right under their God, whilst reminding you he is your God too.

Deep ingrained superstition, the fuel of corruption.

Time for Voltaire methinks;

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Musket

Same generalisation and observation relate equally for Muslims then Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 08:17 AM

"Same generalisation and observation relate equally for Muslims then Musket?"
Don't you mean "Islamists" or do you tar all Christians with the same brush, as you obviously do Muslims?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 08:40 AM

As my last post was deleted for no good reason, I suppose I shall have to repeat.

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 09:32 AM

Joe, the sheer sophistry of your replies denies any acceptance of the reality of the problem, I'm sad to have to say. You close the gamut of the problem down so nobody actually responsible can be held to account, and you shift the target, it's not the protestors who are not fighting fair, it's you.
Your Church has become a byword for contempt and you are clearly willing to turn every blind eye, to twist every logic, to cheese-pare and finagle until the problem that's as plain as a pikestaff disappears in a chimaera of farrago. The answer's equally plain: you speak for a Church which will do anything to dodge, duck and sidle past any accountability for its responsibility. You won't even accept that your Church writ large is responsible for anything, let alone accountable for the consequences. It's not the position for what the law has found across a fairish gamut of the world, so denial of the truth makes you equally as much recalcitrant as those who actually backslide into repeating the offences.
In doing so, you dishonour not only your heritage, but the reputation of other Churches of your faith not tainted by the same besmirching. The only way you'll ever manage to clear that up is by gathering the innocent men in the pews to act against your heirarchy, in rebellion. I don't see how you can possibly accept the philosophy of apostolic descent in the Confessional when the heirarchy is unpredictably tainted by such deeds, for example: your priesthood would have to act if nobody turned up to be absolved one Saturday. You have power you won't use, and so are tacitly complicit.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 02:25 PM

Voltaire's statement applies to all groups who can hold sway over people, religious, political and educational.
All three elements operate in Ireland, and many other regions, but there is a slight loosening of the ties now. The educational aspect, where children are brainwashed into beliefs is the worst.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 02:51 PM

"I've become to realize there's a world of difference between knowing something happened, even knowing why it happened, and believing it." Gayle Forman, Where She Went

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 02:55 PM

There are no deleted posts in this thread, Musket. The message you posted must not have "taken," but there is no conspiracy to delete your posts.


Peter Laban posted a link to a recent article in the Irish Times:
Rite & Reason : The cumulative effect of scandals has a devastating effect of the church

I urge you all to read it. It expresses more-or-less what I feel about these things. I am deeply disturbed by what happened in the Magdalene Laundries, the industrial schools, and the mother-and-baby homes - and, of course, also the molestation of children by priests. I object to the dramatic rhetoric because it unfairly distorts the reality, but nonetheless I am disgusted with church authorities for having allowed this to happen. One would think that if a church follows the creed of "Love thy neighbor," then that church should have run such institutions in a kind and generous manner - and it's clear that quite the opposite is what happened, and that sometimes the conduct of the employees of these institutions was criminal.

But on the other hand, there are a lot of people here who are using these incidents as a vehicle for their prejudice and their antireligious ideology. Their moralistic rants make it impossible for rational and honest discussion of these serious matters.

Anyhow, read the article. The author says exactly what I think, and he says it far better than I can.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 03:04 PM

"But on the other hand, there are a lot of people here who are using these incidents as a vehicle for their prejudice and their antireligious ideolog"
Every single poster to this thread has expressed the same disgust you have gotten round to doing finally.
There is not a shred of evidence of anybody using this topic as "a vehicle for their own prejudice and anti religious ideology."
All posts have condemned the actual events - some have expressed doubts of a church capable of such behaviour being fit to be left caring for or influencing children - that is neither "ant-religious" or "prejudiced" - just simple common sense.
We get the same type of smears when we criticise Israel - that we are "Antisemitic".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 03:10 PM

It was deleted Joe, although mainly because I called him a thick twat.

Sometimes, reason isn't enough. You have to prick the bubble of pomposity. You have snapped from time to time I recall, it's just that my snapping is possibly more dismissive, and I certainly am dismissive of Terribulus's notion that holding a religious body in contempt means you hold their members in contempt. I'd be a lonely old bastard if I did...

On a serious note, you can't say that every criticism is an opportunity for an anti religious agenda. It's like saying every public health report is an anti smoking agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 08:30 PM

I can see all deleted posts, Musket, so I am quite certain that no posts of yours were deleted from this thread. If you ever have reason to think something has been deleted that shouldn't have been, just ask me, and I'll be glad to take a look.

There is only one deleted message in this thread, and it was a duplicate message.

It takes a lot to get a message deleted here. The moderators do not take the choice to delete lightly, and they delete only the most extremely offensive messages.

But on the other hand, a lot of messages just don't "take." It's a good idea to take ten seconds to highlight [CTRL-A] and copy [CTRL-C] your message text before posting, especially if it's a message you worked hard on. Then check the thread to make sure the message "took." If it didn't, refresh the thread [F5 key on your keyboard], and paste [CTRL-V] the message into the message box and post it again. If you have refreshed the thread, the post will almost certainly "take" unless Mudcat is running sluggishly.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 08:45 PM

"The hardest thing to learn in life is which bridge to cross and which to burn." 
― Bertrand Russell

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 08:56 PM

Joe, if what you say about Army recruits is true, I agree that it's to be deplored. So what?

What angers me about the Catholic church's culture of abuse is the arrogance, hypocrisy and contempt for the laity that has allowed it to flourish. Thus a "fallen woman" is to be excoriated and her child denied baptism and Christian burial, while an archbishopo, when his own contemptible behaviour is exposed, is quick to remember Christian values: "I sometimes wonder if we are in danger of losing our sense of mercy and forgiveness in Ireland today." Thus Cardinal Brady responded to calls for his resignation or dismissal.

And are you suggesting, Joe, that Brady's role in covering up a priest's criminal abuse of children was a small matter? [Apologies for calling him O'Brady earlier. I blame my fingers.]

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 08:58 PM

I guess I'd say that in most circumstances, it doesn't do any good to try to figure out whom to blame when something is wrong - and I guess maybe that's what I feel is wrong with all these threads that condemn the Catholic Church for this and that. All too often, the condemnation gets in the way of fixing the problem.

If something is wrong, what's needed is for good people to step in and fix the problem - and too often, the screaming and finger-pointing gets in the way of that. I am a big fan of the "tipping point" theory, based on the book by Malcolm Gladwell that was published in 2000.

Gladwell's theory is that most things move along by inertia, and they seem almost impossible to change. But if a single person or a small group push against the inertia, amazing things can happen. Things can be really bad, and most people - even really good people - accept that's the way things are, and find it impossible to change things. I'm sure that's what happened in the institutions in Ireland. I can't believe that most of the people who worked in those institutions were horrible people who intended to be cruel. I'm sure that many of them did individual acts of kindness in those institutions and that they never did anything that was intentionally cruel - but they accepted the situation as it was, and never dreamed they could do anything to change it. The forces of negativity are very strong, and it may well be that they prevail most of the time. But I'm also sure that in some of those institutions, there were people who pushed against the system, and a very few people can make a real difference in a situation like that. And when kindness and compassion become the rule rather than the exception, radical change happens.

But it appears clear that didn't happen very often in the Catholic institutions of Ireland, if it happened at all.

I think the tide is finally turning, and now the Catholic Church even has a Pope who thinks that doing things with a good heart is more important than following the rules.

The baggage from the past still remains, and there's no denying it. I can't fix it - nobody can fix it. Great harm was done by the Catholic Church, and that's a fact. There is a demand for apologies and reparations, and there is a need for that - but somehow I don't think it's fair if the process of reparations for the past destroys current Catholics who are trying to do what's right.

The current compensation for Catholic priest child molestation victims in the United States is a million dollars. But each million dollars spent compensating a molestation victim, is a million dollars that can't be spent feeding the homeless. And a million-dollar damage settlement doesn't heal the victim of child molestation. And the million dollars is paid by people who had nothing to do with the crime, since the criminals are dead or penniless. So, I don't know what's the answer to that.

As I see it, the arrogance of the Catholic hierarchy has finally been broken, although there's a bastard here and there who got through the cracks. But the Catholic Church as a whole is deeply humbled by the multiple scandals and coverups that took place in the twentieth century and for centuries before that.

So, now you have a humbled church that wants to do right. Where do we go from here?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 09:13 PM

I do not think we are done bumbling ooops typo humbling archbishops yet. Carlson, guy in venice florida, finn, dolan, listecki, paprocki, sartain, cordeleone, burke..misspelled some names...but.do they strike you as humbled? Read abuse tracker every day ..every single day and see if we have reached that great come and get it day yet. Every day it seems something new and even more disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 12:10 AM

"the arrogance of the Catholic hierarchy has finally been broken, although there's a bastard here and there who got through the cracks."
.,,.
Considering the criteria by which all those babies got dead in the first place, might this have been perhaps more happily expressed!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 03:46 AM

Don't give lessons on how to cut and paste Joe. There are enough members who think that cutting and pasting text from dubious websites out of context equals debate as it is...

Ok, I shall accept the coincidence of the only post not taking being one where I gave a medical diagnosis of a member.

But as to my other point in my last post; I really take issue with your assertion that such atrocities are an excuse for the religion bashers to come out of the woodwork. Rational reactions to crime are not an excuse to moan about crime, they are a plea to get assurances that this sort of thing has a lower risk of reoccurrence now than before.

To date, I see on the Vatican website that obeying church authority and getting your moral compass from an old book with 2,000 year old ideals is the only way to be a good catholic.

You might not fall for that, but how many have your access to education and experience of applying reason? How many times do we read that priests are harmless but imams are dangerous for quoting the same instruction to their flock?

The sooner personal faith and organised religions are seen as two different influences on society, the sooner we can begin to dismantle the privilege that religious organisations have yet hardly deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 04:43 AM

Meanwhile, deathrates in the Tuam Mother & Baby Home are being looked at more closely an astonishing 79% of babies born there didn't live through their first year : irish Times article

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 05:14 AM

To give the number in the previous post some context: the present infant mortality rate in Ireland is around 3.4 in 1000, in 1900 this number was 150 in a 1000.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 05:44 AM

"...each million dollars spent compensating a molestation victim, is a million dollars that can't be spent feeding the homeless. And a million-dollar damage settlement doesn't heal the victim of child molestation. And the million dollars is paid by people who had nothing to do with the crime, since the criminals are dead or penniless. So, I don't know what's the answer to that."

The million dollars was paid by people who are members of the Roman Catholic Church organization who were jointly "accountable" for those who did the molesting, the continuation and the coverup "period". Though it will never heal the wounds, and impact, that go beyond those abused, at a minimum, it helps and sends a clear message to this church and other organizations, that they are responsible for the actions of those in their organization, and have a duty to put reasonable measures in place to protect the young under the organizations authority.

I suspect it is much like a lawsuit against any large organization, like the big car companies, the shareholders, assembly line workers and consumers pay for the mistakes of others doing wrong in their organizations that impact others. It is the way it goes in the world. Get over it Joe, let it go and move on from that sob story, as others have done. It reflects some underlying bitterness and a lack of compassion for those abused and compensated (some, only after being denied a minimum of consideration and compassion by the RC organization for many years). I feel you are better than that, Joe, and do have compassion for others, under that bitterness towards those who were abused, compensated and exposed the un-Christion-like past church actions (the organization and people in positions of power).

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 06:07 AM

On the compensation issue: in an Irish context the church fought tooth and tail against any compensation and eventually managed to get a deal in which a redress board was set up that would pay out compensation to victims of clerical sex abuse. Both the church and the orders involved would contribute 50% each to this fund.

As things stand, the orders were, lets say, slow to contribute and were quite happy to let the state foot the bill. Orders also wide moved assets in order to avoid payment to victims.

This article. outlines some of the things involved.

Was the money 'saved' by the orders spent on good works? That's not made clear in any of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 06:14 AM

[Joe's characterization of the Catholic Church]
Things can be really bad, and most people - even really good people - accept that's the way things are, and find it impossible to change things.

That's a description of a fundamentally rotten and destructive institution...

it doesn't do any good to try to figure out whom to blame when something is wrong - and I guess maybe that's what I feel is wrong with all these threads that condemn the Catholic Church for this and that

...where the blame lies not with individuals but with the institution itself. So those threads are right to condemn the Church rather than the thousands of sadists, paedophiles and thieves who have made use of it for their own ends.

The current compensation for Catholic priest child molestation victims in the United States is a million dollars. But each million dollars spent compensating a molestation victim, is a million dollars that can't be spent feeding the homeless. And a million-dollar damage settlement doesn't heal the victim of child molestation. And the million dollars is paid by people who had nothing to do with the crime, since the criminals are dead or penniless.

As you said yourself, the Vatican has vast financial resources (because Mussolini expropriated a large part of the wealth of Italy to hire them as ideological cops). They can afford it, and paying that sum communicates the important point that institutions can be punished for doing evil. That's something most victims will be very happy to see, regardless of what use they may be able to make of the money. An institution that murders and lies should not be seen to get away with it.

If the Church sincerely wants to see the homeless fed, they can throw their weight behind the struggle for a society where each receives according to their need. No institution has the dosh to feed the world as a charitable project.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 06:45 AM

This article from this morning's Irish Times discusses the punative nature of the homes.
A further piece points out that they situation was not confined to Catholic-run homes, but included the Protestant-run Bethany Homes, though to a much lesser degree.
Jim Carroll

COUNTY HOMES TOOK THEIR TOLL ON 'UNMARRIED MOTHERS'
Sean Lucey
Background
Hard unpaid Labour was part of price mothers and babies paid for basic shelter

In 1925, the medical officer of the Kerry County Home recommended 22 of the institution's "unmarried mothers" receive two extra eggs daily because they were "required to perform work of an objectionable nature".
When the department of local government and public health inquired further, the religious matron of the home, Sr Gerard, described the women's harsh work regimes.
She informed the department there were no paid ward maids and the women were
"engaged from 12 to 14 hours" in labour every day. The institution housed up to 400 patients: the majority were elderly and those suffering from long-term chronic sickness, mental illness and intellectual disabilities, and in need of frequent care.
In turn, the "unmarried mothers" carried out much of the manual labour in the home including cleaning, washing and laundry. The matron highlighted that much of this work was "so filthy and unhealthy" it was "almost inhuman " - particularly as the institution had no laundry machine and many of the patients were incontinent - and that some of the women were "almost physical wrecks".

STRICTER REGIMES
County homes were multifunctional healthcare and welfare institutions. These differed in many ways from mother and baby homes and Magdalene laundries, where disciplinary regimes were far stricter and based on redemptive morality.
Mother and baby homes such as Bessborough in Cork city were designed for women with one "illegitimate" child-or "first offenders" – who ere often considered "hopeless cases" whose moral character
could be redeemed. Many of the women in county homes had more than one "illegitimate" child. These were "repeat offenders" and subjected to the harshest attitudes.
Although the 1927 Poor Law Commission recommended that such "degraded cases" be fully removed from county homes and placed in a new network of institutions for "repeat offenders", financially straitened local authorities were unwilling to invest in separate institutions.
So large numbers of "unmarried" mothers and children remained in county homes despite the protestations of many, including the matron of the Kerry home. On March 31st, 1943, there were 583 "unmarried women" in 31 county homes in Ireland, compared to 352 in th e three mother and baby homes run by the Order of the Sacred Heart -Bessborough in Cork City, Sean Ross in Roscrea and Manor Home in Castlepollard- and 201 in Tuam and Pelletstown combined.

MENIAL WORK
Problematically, these women continued to carry out much of the menial work in the homes, and their unpaid labour helped to keep the the local rates down: this was legal under.the public assistance laws.
By 1949, the interdepartmental commission into county homes commented on how unmarried women did in a "large part the hard domestic work" of such institutions.
A combination of government inertia, parsimonious ratepayers and the wider social environment that gave unmarried mothers limited options ensured these women remained in county homes.
Furthermore, county homes were interconnected with mother and baby homes, Magdalene asylums and voluntary-run institutions and women were often transferred between these institutions.
County homes also housed a large number of children, many of whom were sent to
industrial schools or more commonly boarded out in what was an early fostering service.
On March 31st, 1943,2,330 children were boarded out by local authorities, 1,425 children were in local authority institutions – primarily county homes - and 685 were in external voluntary institutions.
While boarded-out children were the focus of local and central government inspection, criticisms were prevalent that they were often used for domestic service and as agricultural labourers.

ALL ASPECTS
While today's Government decides on the nature of any potential inquiry into mother and baby homes, it is apparent that all aspects of local authori¬ty provision for unmarried mothers and children need to be fully considered.
County homes, a hangover from the workhouse system, were peculiar institutions that housed not just "unmarried mothers" and children, but large numbers of the "aged" poor, "infirm", mentally ill and intellectually disabled in independent Ireland.
On March 31st, 1943, county homes had a population close to 8,000. These were deeply unpopular with the wider population and remained highly stigmatising. Conditions were bare.

LOW STANDARDS
One government inspector in 1949 commented on the "low standards of comfort and amenities" in the wards and believed the atmosphere was one of "penury". He also noted that elderly male residents lacked interest in their surroundings and sat in the day room "motionless and often silent". The chronic sick were described as "apathetic".
While Minister for Children Charlie Flanagan's fear of any potential inquiry descending into a "bottomless quagmire" is somewhat understandable, much deeper understandings of Ireland's institutional past, complex social history and treatment of the vulnerable in the 20th century are needed.
Dr Sean Lucey is research fellow (AHRC) at the school of history and anthropology, Queen's University Belfast

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 07:07 AM

Accountability since the Second Vatican Council (1962-65)?

UN Human Rights report 

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 07:12 AM

From thd UN report I linked. "The Vatican was 14 years late submitting its most recent report."

Anyone notice hints if "the old shell game" when it comes to RC church accountability for bad actions of its employees/representativies?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 01:31 PM

Thanks for linking the Human Rights report.
Francis calls abortion horrific, and offers no change in the Church rules on contraception and abortion.
Catholic hospitals and hospices should be avoided by pregnant couples since the idea of conception does not allow abortion even when the life of the mother is at stake.

Sex education is recommended for young pupils in Canadian schools, but in Ontario, as elsewhere, but how the concepts are taught is up to the teacher.
In Alberta, the RC schools issue Human Sexuality Parents Handbooks.
An introductory statement says the essential purpose of the RC school system is to fully permeate Catholic theology, philosophy, practices and beliefs .... in all aspects of school life.
....All institutional materials, instruction and exercises will at all times include subject matter that deals primarily and explicitly with religion.
The role of man and woman is stressed (no mention of gays, etc.).
Conception is stated as the beginning of life. Subjects such as abortion are not mentioned.

Students are taught gender roles. This of course emphasizes the role of the male as the bread-winner and the woman as home-maker, although students are told to make their own decisions.

Catechetical Focus-
"Contraception technology is contrary to Catholic moral teaching..."
"Human life begins at the moment of conception..."
"Abortion is the killing of an innocent life."

Periodic continence is recommended for couples who wish to limit the possibility of pregnancy.
"to render procreation impossible is essentially evil."

This school system is funded with public money in Alberta.
The school system thus allows brain-washing of a large segment of the student population.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 02:16 PM

Catholic hospitals and hospices should be avoided by pregnant couples since the idea of conception does not allow abortion even when the life of the mother is at stake.

Maybe all this shouldn't be dragged into this particular discussion but Google the Savita Hallapanavar case.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 02:30 PM

Joe, ever heard of false humility? Taking pride in how humble you are? That's the kind of hogwash your sect specialises in, it's crocodile tears.
In general, the theory has it that repentant confession leads to rebirth. For that to happen, the tear-down of repentance has to be fundamental, and the confession the recognition before the face of the living God the reality in all its depth and turpitude of what was wrong, rooted in self-loathing and contempt. But there is one exception to that rule, the destruction of childhood innocence. For that, Christ made it clear there is no forgiveness. The confession is one in faith and before the Spirit, not some transvestite sexual repressive. Sorry, but those who did it, and those who covered for them, and those who covered for them, are all irrecoverably damned.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 02:57 PM

first I heard of that. They always said there was a sin against the Holy Spirit that could not be forgiven but they never told us what it was. I figured it must be something like what goes on your permanent record.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 11:44 PM

Peter Laban, usually you get things right, but this time you misinterpreted the numbers:

Thread #154680   Message #3634206
Posted By: GUEST,Peter Laban
18-Jun-14 - 04:43 AM
Thread Name: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns


Meanwhile, deathrates in the Tuam Mother & Baby Home are being looked at more closely an astonishing 79% of babies born there didn't live through their first year : irish Times article

The article says, Almost 80 per cent of the 796 children who died in the Bon Secours mother and baby home in Tuam did not live to see their first birthday. Note that the report says that 10 of the 796 children died of a form of malnutrition when they were between 2 and 12 months old - no information about malnutrition before 2 months or after 12 months, so we don't know the whole story there.

And while we know that over a period of 36 years the home lost an average of 22 babies or children a year, we don't know how many were born there - so we can't determine the death rate.

I read somewhere that the capacity of the Tuam home was 200, and I'm gathering that means 200 unwed mothers. Some other article said that the young women stayed in the home for a year. So, I'm guessing the number of births was 200 a year or fewer. If there were 22 deaths a year and 200 births, that makes a death rate of about ten percent. But that's just a guess - we need an accurate number of births to determine an accurate death rate. I've seen estimates of a twenty percent death rate at Tuam, which sounds more credible to me. Twenty percent is certainly a serious problem, but not as shocking as 79 percent.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 12:20 AM

Yes, sorry that was sloppy reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 02:46 AM

and sloppy thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 02:56 AM

Who told Akenaton it was sloppy thinking? Did he work it out for himself.

If you read accounts of the Nuremberg trials, one if the most obscene moments was von Ribbentrop arguing a report he had acknowledged about 400,000 deaths, where he had his defence assert that it was only 350,000 and wanted the court to take this lower number into account as mitigation.

Still hung the bastard.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 03:00 AM

MG, the exact texts are the start of Matt 18, Mark 9:36-42, and Luke 17:2 (but beware here, it's a scrapbook clipping quoted out of context). Rome as ever takes it and turns it into its own twisted version, the Holy Innocents, so that it can get away with slipping the twisted version of Original Sin underlying this in under the radar without being noticed.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 03:14 AM

"and sloppy thinking."
I wonder why some people insist on using minor slips like this to justify or sidestep what is inescapably inhuman behaviour to a horrific level, while at the same time, totally ignoring the all the facts, especially the full implications of a body like The Catholic Church behaving as they have and being place in a situation where they were able to carry out such inhuman behaviour.
Of all the posters here, Peter has been one of the most informative and even-handed.
Give us a break.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 12:08 PM

the texts that guest gives certainly apply to the criminal clerics, but I don't think they teach that repentance and restoration are impossible......even if we think that they ought.

I too was surprised by akenatons post. seemed uncalled for to me .
maybe another sorry is in order?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 12:33 PM

I was listening to local radio here in cork, and a listener rang in and said it was common knowledge at the time that if a bachelor wanted to get a wife he could go and pay and have the choice of one of the women that were working for the nuns[ as a means of paying off their debts, some women had to work as agricultural slaves for a couple of years]. dont know if itis true, but if it is it is another scandal.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 12:47 PM

Add it to the list of other apologies Akenaton needs to make...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 07:06 PM

"And Stim's tie to the hypocrisy of modern anti-abortionists is a bit anachronistic, I'd say. I'd agree that hypocrisy is alive and well in the so-called "pro-life" movement, but modern pro-lifers are unlikely to be in favor of burying dead babies in a septic tank."

Come on Joe! You know as well as I, or any other who was raised as a Catholic, that the Church back then did not permit contraception, or abortion even when abortion was to save the mother's life.

How does that gel with delivering live babies and deliberately allowing them to starve to death because they were illegitimate?

How they disposed of the bodies, while horrific, is a side issue.

The point is that those who professed an absolute concern for preserving life, were at the same time taking life by deliberate neglect.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 07:39 PM

@Pleiades Pete
Matt 18:14 ...your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish. So killing kids is against God's will.
Matt 18:6 ...it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. and a pretty gruesome fate awaits them.
Matt 18:8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. namely hell-fire.

Which to me is pretty categorical that no redemption for them is possible.

The idea that Heaven is accessible to all is yet another piece of Roman apostasy. The number of texts which say otherwise is considerable, and it is clear that not all are chosen (Matt 22:14).

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 07:43 PM

In heaven, all the interesting people are missing." 
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 08:21 PM

... taking life by deliberate neglect.

Ah, but then, ya see, 'twas God's will.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 08:54 PM

well it is only pretty recently that they declared that heaven was open to all...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 10:55 PM

Troubadour says: Come on Joe! You know as well as I, or any other who was raised as a Catholic, that the Church back then did not permit contraception, or abortion even when abortion was to save the mother's life.

Well, Troubadour, the Catholic Church has always had exceptions for the cases when an abortion would save a mother's life - but there has been a lot of misunderstanding of that exception, even among priests.

As for the Catholic Church not permitting contraception, that's true - and it's a rule I have always ignored myself. However, for the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would worry about following a rule against contraception, while ignoring a rule against extramarital sex. That's close to the height of stupidity, like setting the house afire but carefully making sure to turn off all the lights before leaving. And in my memory, contraceptives were always available even when they were not supposed to be available. It's had for me to believe that condoms were impossible to get in Ireland. Marijuana is illegal under federal law in the U.S., but is anyone willing to say it's impossible to obtain?

As for abortion, I don't know if there will ever be agreement on that issue. If you believe that human life begins at conception, you most likely would be very unwilling to end that life during pregnancy. If you believe life begins at birth, you most likely will have a different opinion of abortion.

As for me, I don't know when life begins, and I think it's a matter of opinion that has no firm answer. Therefore, I mourn the loss of life or potential life that takes place in abortion, but still believe it is the pregnant woman who must make the final decision.

I don't think it's immoral to oppose abortion, or to support abortion. Still, I think that abortion is reason for grieving the loss of life.

I don't think in absolutes, and I'm very reluctant to pass absolute moral judgments against other people. I don't walk in their shoes.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 03:58 AM

Joe, however reluctant you may be to usurp God's judgement, we have judgement to be able to exercise free will, and it is there to be used. Not using it is actually using it, in deciding not to. So being reluctant to pass absolute moral judgemnent is deciding to be morally permissive, and this is the result. Being a moral prude is the opposite extreme.
As has long been said, all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. There are many good men in the Roman Church, it is time they acted to purge it of those who are looting it, both morally and literally.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 04:02 AM

One wonders, MG, whether they really mean that, or whether they actually mean they want to impose (ie tax) themselves on all. Parasites are as parasites do.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 04:06 AM

And again I'll say: Joe, not in Ireland. Please look beyond your own local experience and the most liberal minded best case scenario. Reality is all too often different.

And again I'll refer to the Savita Halapanavar case, how recent do you want the experience to be, who was told 'we're a Catholic country, we can not give you an abortion' .

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 04:33 AM

Thinking about this a few more minutes Joe I actually am getting very angry about this. So the church allows abortion under certain circumstances? How to explain the church's reaction to legislation, allowing for abortion in very limited circumstances to save a mother's life, proposed after the Halapanavar fiasco?

That reaction spoke of dismay when the bill was passed see here and had the Cardinal threaten with legal action if this bill meant church run hospitals would have to perform abortions in cases like the Halapanaver one, i.e. to save the mother's life.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 04:33 AM

"It's had for me to believe that condoms were impossible to get in Ireland"
Condoms we virtually impossible to get outside the cities - Ireland is a rural country
Sex does not work by a rule book - it is often a spur of the moment act - it was a sin to contemplate birth control.
The forbidding of birth control was an act ob barbarism considering that large families was the main cause of poverty and hardship among the lower classes.
The grim irony of all this is while the church was dictating the sexual behaviour of the faithful it was ignoring and often facilitating the rape of children.
As far as I am able to find, even today, the only compromise the modern church has considered on the subject of contraception, is in the cases of the spread of AIDS, and that, reluctantly.
The church continues to prove itself unfit to guide, let alone dictate on sexual matters.
Jim Carroll

"Ignoring the mountain of evidence, some maintain that the Church considers the use of contraception a matter for each married couple to decide according to their "individual conscience." Yet, nothing could be further from the truth. The Church has always maintained the historic Christian teaching that deliberate acts of contraception are always gravely sinful, which means that it is mortally sinful if done with full knowledge and deliberate consent (CCC 1857). This teaching cannot be changed and has been taught by the Church infallibly."
THE CHURCH AND BIRTH CONTROL

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 06:29 AM

I add to Jim's post this wiki entry on contraceptives in Ireland

And some memories of a few of the women who rode [url=http://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/1666-women-and-society/459015-condom-train-and-women-in-the-media/]contraceptive trains[/url]of the 1970s and were arrested for bringing in contraceptive contraband from the North.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 06:39 AM

contraceptive trains

corrected link from previous post. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 08:00 AM

In Northern Ireland, which is part of The UK, it is very difficult to get an abortion, even in cases that would satisfy the terms of The Abortion Act 1968. Hitherto, it has meant a trip on a ferry to a hospital in Scotland or England, as we are all NHS contributors and recipients.

A recent ruling has meant that in future, women from Northern Ireland will have to pay. Add the ferry / flight on top etc, and you begin to see the problem. Most women who would travel for termination are, measured by their funding authority, so we can distinguish between and find the NI ladies cared for on mainland Great Britain include victims of rape or domestic violence, (34% for 2011/12 as opposed to 11% overall for UK.) Not always the most upwardly socially mobile of women for such an expense. The procedure privately has a going rate, I am informed of circa £560.00 plus any accommodation and after care. (Price of a small hospital whose overall price list I happen to have.)

Not exactly boutique abortion or abortion as a form of contraceptive is it? For every one of these to register in that abuse category, (HRG in NHS speke) it would mean police and social services input. It doesn't allow for those who refused social assessment, sometimes because they were afraid for when they returned.

Even in The UK then, where despite an official religion (Anglican) we see a separation of church and government, Northern Ireland lets superstition reign with church inspired abortion regime and legislation to oppress gay people. Not to mention a first minister, lead politician and all that, applauding and defending a bigoted pastor who called other religions evil.

Yeah, California may be land of the free (unless you are of Mexican extraction) but the rest of the world has superstitious hang ups Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 04:11 AM

A bit more on mortality rates at the various mother and baby institutions. One, and I read it correctly this time, clocking up a 50% infant mortality rate between 1924 and 1931 resulting in 662 deaths in that period. Mortality rates for 'illegitimate' children were five times those of children born within marriage.

Irish Times rticle

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 03:12 PM

Well, we have a step forwards, folks. The Pope has excommunicated the Mafia ne masse, after the Ndrangheta killed a three year old in Calabria in an execution shooting targeting his grandfather. His exact words were "It must never again happen that a child suffers in this way."

Now, your Holiness, if you would be so kind as to repeat the exercise on the denizens of your own Halls of Infamy, we might start getting somewhere. Oh, and ensuring they actually apply your first instruction might be a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,davemc
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 08:32 PM

Associated Press has issued an apology for its misleading reporting of this issue. Most of the major "shock! horror!" aspects of the story seem to have been fabricated and then subsequently picked up and embelished by other news agencies:

"In stories published June 3 and June 8 about young children buried in unmarked graves after dying at a former Irish orphanage for the children of unwed mothers, The Associated Press incorrectly reported that the children had not received Roman Catholic baptisms; documents show that many children at the orphanage were baptized. The AP also incorrectly reported that Catholic teaching at the time was to deny baptism and Christian burial to the children of unwed mothers; although that may have occurred in practice at times it was not church teaching. In addition, in the June 3 story, the AP quoted a researcher who said she believed that most of the remains of children who died there were interred in a disused septic tank; the researcher has since clarified that without excavation and forensic analysis it is impossible to know how many sets of remains the tank contains, if any. The June 3 story also contained an incorrect reference to the year that the orphanage opened; it was 1925, not 1926."

(source: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100277164/associated-press-apologises-for-its-incorrect-reporting-of-the-tuam-babies-scandal/ )

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 08:53 PM

@DaveMC
Kindly do us the service of reading the thread before you come plunging in at the end of the debate with a load of nonsense. We went back to source and found that there was quite enough to go on pending the excavation of the site, if it ever happens, and even without, the way those kids were treated throughout their lives reduces this so-called religion to a den of sadists. OK, there are those who have not have lived virtuous lives within the fellowship, very many more than those who have not, but by not kicking out those who parasitise them, they are thereby giving aid and comfort to their abusers.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 02:15 AM

"It was 1925, not 1926."

Oh, that's alright then. The catholic approach to children is off the hook if that's the case.

Move on, nothing to see here.

zzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 02:47 AM

Musket, this story of 800 babies thrown into a septic tank spread all over the world, but yet most of those babies were buried in earthen graves and the death count was 22 per year. So far, no septic tank has been found.

There are statements above in this thread about how babies were starved to death by the nuns who ran these institution, but there were only ten babies who died of malnutrition over 36 years - and no information how that malnutrition occurred.

I would think that any religion that has "love thy neighbor" and "preferential option for the poor" as basic teaching, ought to do an excellent job running institutions such as the mother and baby homes and the industrial schools and the Magdalene Laundries - but they didn't, and that is a scandal and a shame. From what I've read, the environment for the young people in these institutions was harsh and uncaring, very much like basic training in the U.S. Army was for me. For the most part, there was no systematic cruelty, but the clients of these institutions were treated as having done something wrong that they had to pay the price for - very much like they were in a penal institution.

Such an environment is fertile ground for abusive personalities, and there are records of many employees in some of these institution who were abusive.

But for the most part, the stories are not as dramatic as the demagogues would have you believe. And the stories are the same all over the world during that period. The workhouses of England were just the same, and England also had mother-and-baby homes that were similar to those in Ireland. Sinclair Lewis wrote of poor people in the U.S. who were treated similarly.

And it wasn't all bad. After the last of Magdalene Laundries closed in 1996, many of the remaining residents moved to convents and were cared for by nuns for the rest of their lives.

But it's true that if the Catholic Church believes what it preaches, it should have done a far better job with the institutions under its care, and it failed to do that.

Hello, my name is Joe Offer.
I am a Roman Catholic. I was brought up Catholic, and it is the religious tradition where I feel at home.
Yes, I know it's fucked up, and it's not perfect like your life; but it's an essential part of my life and it's where I feel at home.
Get over it.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 03:07 AM

"So far, no septic tank has been found."
The septic tank claim was laid to rest (more decently than the children were) some tome ago - it is you who has kept it alive to divert from the real issue - the horrifically inhuman treatment of "sinners" at the hands of those calling themselves Christians, with the full collusion of the Irish Government - that is, and has always been the real issue.
"many of the remaining residents moved to convents and were cared for by nuns for the rest of their lives."
Your sanitised view of what happened to the Magdalene girls can be found in full here - I suggest you follow all the internal links - they make for uncomfortable reading.
MAGDALENE LAUNDRIES
When I was growing up, my main impression of the church was one of sin and guilt - It would be good to witness contrition from the groups that were the direct cause of such suffering - precious little has been in evidence so far, especially from those involved in the laundries.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 04:04 AM

If The Yorkshire Indoors League of Darts, Dominoes, Cribbage and Putting Ferrets Down Your Trousers decided at their AGM to set up a system of abusing young women, I'd want to see evidence that such a motion was not only overturned but that the proposers were asked to leave.

Otherwise, I'd have no option but to resign myself....

I would still get pleasure out of saying 15/2 15/4 and the odd 5s & 3s, but I wouldn't be able to represent my pub in the league, that's all. I would disassociate myself rather than say that they don't represent members, because in actual fact, they would...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 04:44 AM

What a predictable response from Ian.

It says everything about who and what he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 04:56 AM

Well, Jim Carroll, no matter what you think, I believe the truth is far more effective than all the dramatic posturing. Tell the truth, and tell it in proper context. Otherwise, I might begin to think that all you can do is spout propaganda.

There were comments made about the septic tank story just before the message I posted, and I felt it appropriate to respond. I'm glad to see you finally concede that the septic tank story is false.


You gave me a link to a Website, http://www.magdalenelaundries.com/. I went to the Website to find information about treatments of the residents of the laundries. I clicked four or five links, but didn't find any information about conditions in the laundries. I'd really like to see factual information, but please direct me to more specific locations.

Here (click) is a story about a Magdalene Laundry that closed in 1993. The story says, "When the laundry closed its doors in 1993, Madge and other women being held in the laundry were moved to a new building but remained under the care of the Good Shepherd nuns."

Seems to me that by the time these institutions closed, people realized that they were places of cruelty, so efforts were made to improve conditions at the end. I haven't found complete data on the Tuam home, but I have read several articles about the death rate, including this one. It appears that the death rate was very high during the early years of the institution, as high as 50 percent during one year. Then the death rate went down, and then went up again during World War II. And one report said that of the 796 deaths, 10 were due to malnutrition.

forbes.com has an interesting view of the perceptions of this whole story. It's worth a look.

I have no doubt that the actual data will determine that the conditions at Tuam and other institutions were unacceptable. But I want to see real data before I form an opinion.

I do have to say that it's entertaining to watch the moral outrage of all our born-again atheists/agnostics. The sound very suspiciously like born-again Christians with their outrage and their moral superiority. I guess they have the right to do that because they disowned their ancestors and covered up the skeletons in their closets and made sure they didn't have Jews or other unacceptable elements in their dart clubs. But they say the same exaggerated things about Catholics that the fundamentalists and snake handlers have been saying for years.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 05:33 AM

Well Joe Offer - since you appear to insist on addressing those who disagree with you in a hostile manner.
The conditions in the Magdalene Laundries are far to well known to repeat, and if we did, you would, no doubt, accuse us of rubbing the church's noses i past sins.
The link was intended to highlight the problems that the victims of these slave camps had in getting recognition of, let alone recompense for their suffering at the hands of members of your church.
The victims you were referring to had spent their lives in these hell-holes and were too old to be returned anywhere other than to be placed in the hands who would take care of them (ongoing revelations having made further mistreatment and neglect unlikely).
That church bodies should take on responsibility for such victims cannot considered anything but an obligation on the part of the church - not by any stretch of the imagination a kindness.
Contemporary eye-witness accounts of the conditions in the mother and childrens' homes
My and others here's disgust of the behaviour of those left in charge of the most vulnerable, is not that of a "born again atheist" but that of human beings - I wonder how long it will take for those who carried out or oversaw these abuses to ascend to that level - or do only the holy psess that particular quality.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 05:36 AM

It was real data which started this, Joe and nothing but nothing has been done by the Roman Church to add anything to it. Instead, you wriggle and twist in an utterly discreditable manner, putting your creed who we know and don't love before the Joe Offer we know and love. The latter is someone real, the former something which has disappeared so far up its own philosophical posterior as not to know any longer where its arse and its elbow are. Yes, it would be wonderful if Rome could get back to where it should be, but to do that you need to get rid of everything baleful from the past - and that includes some dogma about the priesthood. The infamous pairing of Papal Infallibility and Apostiolic Descent producing the sense of priestly infallibility behind the unaccountability. The suppression of confession in the Confessional, busibody monitoring of fellow-believers gone insane. At root, it is an absence of faith in the power of God to affect real change for good, usuroing his authority for one's own career prospects.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 08:46 AM

"putting your creed"
Sorry Guest - I don't go along with this, though Mr Offer (to be even more formal) would love it to be the case.
Since we moved to Ireland the churches here have gradually emptied in the light of the revelations, even in the somewhat conservative west - good Christians have simply walked away from their church.
I understand that some of the churches in Dublin are now in trouble due to the difficulty in recruiting new priests.
We spent forty years recording devout Catholics and, while not sharing their beliefs, it was impossible not to respect their faith and their humanity - it was part of the joy of working here.
It is this humanity that is missing from this discussion and it is the lack of a decently contrite response from the church which will lower it even further in the eyes of the faithful.
I shudder to think of how all this would have effected some of the older singers we recorded, admired, and in some cases, regarded as close friends - all wonderful human beings.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 02:10 PM

Jim, I don't think it is humanity which has disappeared here, just that there are limits to how much a Church which claims divine inspiration can take refuge behind it. If it didn't, and never had, then perhaps there would be a case, but if you set high standards to everyone and fail to measure up to them yourself, then you'll find yourself accused either of hypocrisy or of being away with the fairies.
I'm not saying the ideals are unachievable, they are achieveable but only by direct inspiration, not by organisational measures. The test is objective, can they really do the exceptional? I'm qualified to criticise because I not only have, but do, to a level which is mundanely incomprehensible. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
In this instance, the proof is that the pudding was putrid. The solution, to clean the shop. It's not happening and the Spiritual Health Inspector's closing the shop as a result.
#it humanity were to be applied, then the starting point is to recognise the problem and sort it out so it can never recur. The Pope has it in him, in theory, but does he have the bottom to succeed in practice? If he were thirty, then he would have time to progress at the measured pace he is taking, but he isn't, the clock's ticking, and the hand is writing on the wall, Mene Mene Tekel Upharsim.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 06:28 PM

Well, Jim Carroll, despite what you may presume about me, I am really interested in finding out the truth about the Magdalene Laundries, the industrial schools, and the mother and baby homes. These stories have been so shrouded in name calling and posturing, that it is impossible to sort out the truth.
You cited a story above about the findings of an inspector in a mother and baby home in Cork, and it was a very believable story that was factually presented.
On 6 January, Catherine Corless posted a Facebook entry that was credible and unclouded with propaganda, and I think it's worthwhile to post it here:

The following is a synopsis of the research and essay that I wrote.
The Mother/Baby Home Tuam
The Mother/Baby Home in Tuam was opened in 1925 and was run by the Bon Secours Sisters to cater for unmarried mothers and their babies. This was an era in our history when pregnancy before marriage was deeply frowned upon by church, state and family. The unfortunate woman who found herself in this predicament was quickly sent to an institution such as the Mother/Baby Home out of sight of prying neighbours and relatives.
The Bon Secours Sisters were a nursing congregation who had come from Dublin to take charge of the hospital wing of Glenamaddy Workhouse, which catered for the destitute, old and infirm, orphans and unmarried mothers. These Workhouses had been instigated by the Irish Poor Law since the 1840's, but now after the Treaty, the Irish Free State reformed the whole system and put in place administration on a county basis, so that separate arrangements were made for the aged and infirm to go to County Homes, and for the unmarried mothers and orphans to go to institutions.
All Workhouses were closed, but it was decided that the one on the Dublin road in Tuam would be chosen as a Mother/Baby Home. The Home building itself was in a good structural state but needed quite a bit of repair. The Sisters and some of the mothers and children began the task of clearing and cleaning, and by the end of the year 1925, all were ready to move in. Dr. Thomas B. Costello was the Medical Officer for the Home and the Rev. Peter J. Kelly, a grandnephew of the former Archbishop of Tuam Dr. John McEvilly, was chaplain.
The building belonged to Galway Co.Co. and they were responsible for repairs and Maintenance, and a capitation grant was paid to the nuns for the cost and upkeep of the mothers and babies, and for the salaries of doctors. A maternity wing was added some time later. The travel writer Halliday Sutherland visited the Home in the 1950's and it is worth quoting his review of the Home:
"The grounds were well kept and had many flower beds. The Home is run by the Sisters of the Bon Secours of Paris and the Reverend Mother showed me around. Each of the Sisters is a fully trained nurse and midwife. Some are also trained children's nurses. An unmarried girl may come here to have her baby. She agrees to stay in the Home for one year. During this time she looks after her baby and assists the nuns in domestic work. She is unpaid. At the end of the year she may leave. She may take her baby with her or leave the baby at the Home in the hope that it will be adopted. The nuns keep the child until the age of seven, when it is sent to an industrial school. There were 51 confinements in 1954 and the nuns now looked after 120 children. For each child or mother in the Home, the Galway Co.Co. pays £1 a week. Children of five or over attend the local schools. The whole building was fresh and clean."
Haliday Sutherland, however, did not interview any of the resident mothers or helpers. Had he done so, he would have got quite a different story to the one he was told. During my researching the Home, I spoke to some mothers who gave birth there and their account of their confinements speaks of long unattended labours without sight of a Sister or midwife, it was only during the birth that a nurse was in attendance with only the help of an untrained resident. The doctor gave one examination when the mother was first admitted and that was the last they saw of him. No drugs of any kind were ever administered to help with pain, no kindness ever shown. Only mothers who had the ability to pay £100 for delivery services were allowed to leave after the birth. It was a condition that all others must wait a full year
in the Home filling domestic duties, cooking, cleaning, minding the babies and children and tending to the gardens. The mothers did not have the choice of keeping their babies as outlined by the writer Halliday Sutherland. Seeing that their confinement in the first place was a hush-hush affair, no family would allow a daughter back home with a baby, as Irish Catholics in those days were in fear of a much distorted doctrine by the Catholic Church that the unmarried mother had committed a heinous crime. It is also to be remembered that the man who had fathered the child was never villainized or held responsible. Neither did the Irish state at that time offer any support for the unmarried mother.
The late John Cunningham, former editor of the 'Connaught Tribune' spent his early days in the Tuam Home, as his mother died in his infancy, and in an article which he published in the 'Connaught Tribune' April 1998, he speaks of the cruelty of the system which allowed the separation of babies from their mothers.
In his article entitled 'Emotional minefield of the rights of mothers and adopted children from the Ireland of yesterday', John relayed the conversation he had with a woman who had spent most of her life in the Home: 'What were the young women to do? Many weren't wanted at home, they were ostracised by society.
In those days a young woman could not become pregnant and stay at home. It was as simple as that. I saw the devastation when they were parted from their children. They nursed the child and looked after it for a year and then they went one way and the child stayed to be adopted or to be boarded out a few years later. I don't know if any of them recovered from the heart-breaking parting. It was heart rending'.
For the children who were not adopted from the Home, they attended the Mercy Convent N.S. or the Presentation N.S. once they reached the age of 5. They were brought down to the schools in a line and always left a little earlier in the evenings, to ensure that there would be no integration with the other pupils. The sound of their heavy clogs making their way up the Dublin road is a memory that resonates with most people. After they made their first communion, many of the children were fostered out by families. There was an allowance per week from the Government at the time, and a yearly clothing allowance, provided to those families for the care of the children. Unfortunately, there was no vetting system in place to check on the suitability of those families to take those young vulnerable children, and many of them were sent to uncaring unscrupulous families who spent very little of the allowance on them. Many of the children were treated little better than slaves, but had to remain with the families until they reached 16 years of age after which many of them emigrated to England in the hope of a better life. Some of the children fared a little better, with the foster family accepting them as one of their own, and some even inherited the farmsteads they were sent to.
The Home was closed in 1961 as it had fallen into a dilapidated state. The children who had remained there were sent to the Industrial School in Castlepollard, Co. Westmeath. The Home and grounds remained vacant for a number of years, except for the rear building which was used by 'Bontex' who made school uniforms. In the early 1970's the whole building was demolished to make way for a new housing estate. When I started my research into the Home, I spoke to some of the residents who had moved into this housing estate on the Dublin/Athenry road,
and they indicated that there was an unmarked graveyard in an area at the rear of where the Home once stood. It was believed that it was an angels plot for unbaptised babies, but further in my research I discovered that in fact, many children and young babies were also buried here. I was astonished to find that there was no formal marking or plaque to indicate that these children were buried there. I decided
to contact the Registration Office in Galway to check for deaths in the Home. I was dismayed to find that in fact the number of children who died in the Home during it's existence 1925-1961 numbered nearly 800. I now have all those children's names, date of death, and age at death, which will be recorded into a special book.
It just did not seem right that all those children lay there unnamed forgotten.
Hence, I made contact with the Western Traveller and Intercultural Development (WTID) and a committee of interested people emerged, all with the view that some sort of Memorial should be erected in this children's graveyard in dedication to their memory. Our committee is named: 'The Children's Home Graveyard Committee'
We introduced our Project to erect a Memorial to the children, to the Tuam Town Council at one of their meetings, and got a unanimous decision that they would help us with some funding when they get their 2014 Grant Allowance. The Heritage Council have also promised to help but have cautioned us that Heritage Grants have been cut for 2014. Our fundraising is ongoing as it will take a large sum to complete the whole Project, i.e. to erect a proper Monument, clear the pathways into the graveyard, and to maintain the area with flowers and shrubs etc., A St. Jarlath's Credit Union account has been set up for anyone who would like to contribute to this very worthy Project.

That's what I'm looking for, Jim - factual information.
I'd also suggest reading the Ryan Report, http://www.childabusecommission.ie/rpt/ExecSummary.php. This report gives very credible details of the cruelty in the industrial schools, which were primarily operated by orders of religious nuns or brothers.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 07:29 PM

Catherine Corless is the amateur historian who first brought the story of the 796 unmarked graves to light.
Ms Corless obtained death certificates for all 796; deaths listed were influenza, convulsions, tuberculosis, measles, whooping cough, meningitis and other illnesses. Infections spread rapidly in these institutions. (The death certificates were examined by The Irish Times.)
She did not find any burial records.
The burial was first described by boys (interviewed by Corless) who levered up a slab the size of a coffee table and found small skulls (they guessed about 20).
The buildings had been a workhouse before it was taken over by the sisters. In back was an area labeled septic tank on maps of the site.
The graves are in a part of that area.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:31 AM

"These stories have been so shrouded in name calling and posturing, that it is impossible to sort out the truth."
That is the point Joe - the truth has been a matter of record, certainly on the clerical abuses, the Industrial Schools and the Magdalene Laundries, for a long time now - the Government has put its hands up to its part in them and compensation has been paid, largely by the taxpayer.
What remains is to ascertain there is a full recognition of why these things took place and that they can never happen again
In order for this to be possible, the church needs to acknowledge its part and pass on all necessary information, mainly to give the victims and their families some sort of public recognition that what happened was wrong - closure.
That has yet to happen.
The only posturing that has taken place here has been that by and in defence of the church.
There has always been a danger that this could be put down to the Catholic religion (pretty much the way things have been labelled 'Muslim' elsewhere.   
Whatever my personal beliefs on religion, I have no wish to see Catholic members of my family or friends and neighbours implicated in any way - they were victims of the church's unacceptable behaviour, as were those who suffered and died in the Homes, industrial schools and Laundries.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 12:17 PM

The Associated Press last week issued a lengthy correction admitting that the septic tank might not contain any human remains at all; the wire service had also incorrectly reported that the children hadn't been baptized because they were born out of wedlock. Other media outlets have been slower to dial down the hyperbole. Britain's Guardian newspaper amended a headline on an opinion piece, removing the "dumped" claim, but most outlets have left their fact-free speculation to stand.

The truth is not entirely clear, but we know this: 796 babies are buried somewhere on the site of the old Bon Secours sisters' home, which operated between 1925 and 1961. The records clearly show that. It's also true that these institutions, into which unmarried women were placed by their families, has a higher infant mortality rate than the general population. In the 1920s, children born to unmarried mothers, mostly living in institutions, were six times more likely to die than children living at home with married parents. By the 1950s, they were three times higher, and by the 1960s it was equal, says historian Lindsey Earner-Byrne, author of Mother and Child: Maternity and Child Welfare in Dublin, 1922-60.

That Story About Irish Babies Buried in a Septic Tank Was Shocking. It Also Wasn't Entirely True.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 02:53 PM

And by 2014 the Church had still not learned to avoid denial when faced with hard facts. Nothing to be seen, move along...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 02:12 AM

Despite the allegation from our unknown Guest, I haven't seen any recent statements from the Catholic Church denying the conditions at the mother and baby homes. Indeed, Archbishop Martin of Dublin called for an investigation of Tuam and the other Mother and Baby Homes. It really doesn't pay the Catholic Church to deny anything that's factual anymore, so they've stopped doing that for the most part.

We of the Catholic left want to know the facts of the conditions in these institutions, but we can't make use of unsupported allegations or information that is clouded by slanted language. We think the Catholic Church should be a place that fosters critical thinking and supports free will and a spirit of generosity. We don't want to go back to the authoritarian atmosphere that existed before Vatican II. I think it is that authoritarianism and the clericalism and judgmental spirit that goes with it, that fostered the harsh conditions in the mother and baby homes and the Magdalene Laundries and the industrial schools. There is a strong conservative movement in the Catholic Church. I don't know why, but they want to gain back the severity that was so prevalent in the Catholic Church before Vatican II. They made great advances during the lengthy reign of John Paul II, 1978-2005. They lost some ground during the reign of Benedict XVI, and they've been really worried since Pope Francis took over in March 2013.

But you born-again know-nothings* who make such a ruckus here, make no recognition of the different forces active within the Catholic Church, and you see it all as monolithic and therefore uniformly to blame for everything bad done in the name of the Catholic Church.

I don't think the conditions in these institutions were quite as dramatically bad as some of you would like people to think, but I think it's clear that these institutions were deplorable. There are strong forces within the Catholic Church fighting to see that such deplorable situations never happen again in my church - but to win that fight, we need to make use of factual information, not Know-Nothing propaganda.

-Joe-


*Know-Nothings, for those of you who don't know: Wikipedia will tell you the Know Nothing movement was an American political movement that operated on a national basis during the mid-1850s. It promised to purify American politics by limiting or ending the influence of Irish Catholics and other immigrants, thus reflecting nativism and anti-Catholic sentiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 03:10 AM

"born-again know-nothings"
Your case would be far more palatable if it wasn't accompanied by smears such as this
The 'Know Nothings' were established to denigrate the Irish people fleeing the Famine, those commenting here are criticising church bodies for their behaviour towards vulnerable human beings.
You have already linked these criticism to atheism - now you are presenting it as an attack on Catholicism - it is neither.
It is a condemnation of the appalling de-humanisation and abuse of many thousands of sick and distressed people by bodies which were part of an all-powerful church - the excuse for that behaviour was that their victims were "sinners" who deserved nothing more.
There are more then enough established facts for you to deal with - deal with them before you dig yourself in even deeper and lose the respect of those of us who still regard you as a decent person.
"admitting that the septic tank might not contain any human remains"
Old news Boo-boo - the 'septic tank' burials were a headline-grabbing ploy, largely by the gutter press - they have long been established as not a factor in all this, except to those who wish to divert from the main issue, which is the maltreatment and deaths of thousands of people.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 03:32 AM

Catholic left?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 05:03 AM

Jim Carroll and Musket, I really had thought that the two of you would be capable of reasonable discussion, but I guess that's not possible.
Too bad.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 05:10 AM

the 'septic tank' burials were a headline-grabbing ploy, largely by the gutter press

You lapped it up gullibly enough Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 07:35 AM

"You lapped it up gullibly enough Jim."
No I did not - remember golden rule, brain in gear before opening mouth.
I was the one who pointed out that the burial sites were possibly historical tombs - and produced the article stating the same - (08 Jun 14 - 03:46 AM)
I don't expect a withdrawal from you - you don't go in for that sort of thing.
" I really had thought that the two of you would be capable of reasonable discussion, but I guess that's not possible."
Would you please indicate where anything I have written is in any way unreasonable?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 07:47 AM

I only asked what Catholic left meant Joe? It was a question, not a debate. It sounds a bit of an oxymoron, that's all.

My comment comparing membership of a religion with membership of an indoor pub sports league is an interesting analogy. To oppose and remain corporate at the same time takes some doing.

I suppose that the detail of how the regime starved babies and treated women as second class for having them needs further investigation. But for some on here to assume that as the detail of the septic tank scenario being somewhat inaccurate means those disgusted at the church and it's wicked ideas need to apologise for something?

Eight hours solid sleep each night. No problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:16 AM

Jim,
P placing children, in death, in shit-holes (no matter how magnificent),

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:21 AM

The septic tank story is the way this came in the new originally. Sensationalist? I don't know, pretty solid news outlets like RTE reported it that way, based, one assumes, on the fact the area was marked on some older maps as 'septic' tank.

As soon as more clarity came to the issue this was corrected.

My own issue with this news was the priest who came on the original news item to say there was nothing to see there, just move along, it's all old stuff anyway. And I wasn't exactly the only one who took offence at that, if some of the comments locally are to be taken into account. I must stress here that the downplaying of the situation came well before there was more clarity so it's fair to say it was the kneejerk reaction some would expect. There was, at that point, no call for clarity or looking into the matter just the denial anything untoward could have come to light. And that's where this thread started.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:26 AM

We haven't seen anything proactive from the Church either, Joe, just blather, flim-flam and flannel. If I had 800 bodies buried under my land, I'd be acting, making arrangements for the matter to be sorted out permanently.

Let's look at this right-wing now. If ever there was a case for accusing Rome of bowing before vested power and influence, this is it. It starts among the Cardinals - they are the self-selected candidates for the top job, and so what starts as a desire for perfection, becomes infighting between them. We then meet the next layer down, the Bishops. They would love to become Cardinals, but can more easily be destroyed by them, and so become sycophants. At the same time, they also hold the Parishes under a thumb of iron, lest by acting autonomously, they open the way to destruction. The result is an authoritarian heirarchy.

Alongside that, you often find a shadow fellowship of family. I find it really surprising to find how often the people who rise high in the Church come from families who are high in the secular world, to an utterly feudal degree. I thought it might have just been Belgium, but I'm now dealing with another European monarchy at top level and it's the same. The result is you have to nail both Church and State to get anything to change, they protect each other. Thus it is we see power corrupting, and absolute power corrupting absolutely, the perfect recipe for right-wing diktat.

There must be a limit to toleration, as liberality is abused in this way. Every time this kind of thing has happened - and it has been current for eighteen years now in my adult life - the liberal wing has allowed the right wing to hide behind it. You have turned the cheek the requisite seven times, you have told your brothers they are wrong, and still it continues. It must stop.

The Biblical foundation for the damnation of child abuse is the start of Matthew 18, but the Chapter goes on to cover all of this in great and specific detail. Taking the grace of forgiveness and using it for evil is exactly what it deals with, and is all part of the same sick spirit.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:56 AM

"placing children, in death, in shit-holes (no matter how magnificent),"
For crying out loud Keith - if you are going to try and score points out of this disgusting affair, have the sense to read what had been written before you make a complete arsehole of yourself - haven't you got yourself in enough trouble by just selecting the bits that suit you?
I actually wrote:
"I raised the matter only in response to your appalling suggestion that any place designed to dump our shit is a suitable one to dispose of maltreated children -"
I then went on to produce the archaeological evidence of what these vaults might have been.
I have since been pointing out that the 'septic tank' issue is a diversion from the real issue
Stop trying to score points out of the deaths of children
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 11:04 AM

Missed a bit - just so we can put an end to this distasteful interlude
Joe wrote:
"My home's septic tank is a huge, sturdy concrete vault that looks very similar to the concrete vaults used in graveyards. It would not necessarily be an inappropriate grave."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 12:45 PM

Concern over this and other matters is not people picking on Catholics. I am a practicing, although not a "good" Catholic and I am as disgusted as any. I encourage everyone to read bishop accountability abuse tracker each and every day. There is so much more coming out..we are starting to hear from other parts of the world, Australia is revealing more and more about Vatican interference for one thing...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 02:44 PM

"Stop trying to score points out of the deaths of children"
.,,.

As that is precisely what this thread is about, that is what every poster to it is doing, by definition.

Don't be silly, eh Jim?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 02:49 PM

Scoring points from dead children? If it is about anything, it is about questioning the right of the Catholic Church to be in charge of children and vulnerable adults, given their track record in living memory of most of us here.

Point scoring from tragedy I leave to the likes of you Michael. You seem far better at it than me, Jim or any other decent member of Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 03:14 PM

"As that is precisely what this thread is about, that is what every poster to it is doing, by definition."
No it isn't Mike - it is yet another revelation of how a Church, given enough power, will abuse that power.
That is not scoring points - it is making sure it can never happen again.
Yousr suggestion implies that those who brought it to world attention in the first place did so to "score points"
Pretty much on par with a mutual 'friend'.
Rather be silly than sick, thanks all the same.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 06:30 PM

Jim Carroll, World Champion Point-Misser -- as usual!

~M~

Nemmine, Jim: it's that ole ❤-in-right-place that matters -- what we all luvya-4!

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 03:45 AM

"Jim Carroll, World Champion Point-Misser -- as usual!"
Me must see can't establish a childish name-calling event in the next Olympics Mike.
I have my as much information as I thought helpful here, and I have argued to the best of my ability.
In teturn:
"Nemmine, Jim: it's that ole ❤-in-right-place that matters -- what we all luvya-4!"
Sorry - I'm past the point in life where I can handle that level of childishness from an 'adult' leave it to the kids - it can be charming in them.
If you have a 'point' to make - please make it and stop alluding to it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 04:57 AM

Unlucky Jim.

He doesn't love me any more...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 08:09 AM

A spin-off story is developing further: The Baby Black Market

The story of the babies sold off for adoption in, mainly, the US. Mostly illegally. Around 15% of all 'illegitimate' children in the mother and baby homes went that way. According to a tv programme that was on earlier this week it was quite the money spinner for the nuns too.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 08:19 AM

Philmena.

It became a money spinner for Steve Coogan too. The fact that the film was based on a true story and the journalist who helped Philomena being a household name, adding to the provenance, made it a rather harrowing tale to watch (or read, although I dont have the book.)

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 08:29 AM

Yes, it's not a new story but it seems to be taking off, Philomena and Mother and Baby Homes combining to increase focus on the baby sales.

Another area where church and Irish state colluded.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 02:39 PM

okay - you all know me. you all know I have tried to be your friend. I daresay I have upset one or two of you over the years - but I have never been intentionally malicious - or tried at any time to hold myself as something special.

so I am going to ask you ALL a favour, and hope you will try to treat with respect what I am saying. What I have to say is this:-

I know for a fact the Joe Offer has been very deeply hurt by some of the comments on this thread. Out of respect for the man, can I ask you to apologise for any hurt your comments have caused? I am sure you are all aware that Joe is man who would never countenance or condone any evil or cruel act.

I know that some of you come from places and cultures where the Roman Catholic Church has lost any respect due to it. I know that feelings run high on this subject. But this is a good man we are talking about - a man who has done good things for all of us on mudcat; a man we owe.

Can I ask you to be nice to him, if its not too soppy - to show love and respect?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 03:47 PM

Joe is definitely a very good, sincere, honourable man, one to be much respected. I try to respect likewise his views on faith, tho I do not always find it possible. But I should not like to think that anything I have said in disputing them was in any way intended other than in a spirit of honest debate; and certainly never intended as any sort of ad hominem attack, and should be very grieved to learn he had ever taken anything I have posted in such a way.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 06:15 PM

appreciated Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 06:37 PM

Ditto to MtheGMs message from me.
No stress or disrespect intended from my end. IMO, Joe O is a "Stand up guy" and should be admired for his comittment and honest comments.

Debate, sometimes candid and always spirited, never takes away from that, though we may have different perspectives, and ways of stating them in debates on sensitive issues.Wouldn't be boring, and fruitless, if we all saw things the same way, and could not learn from each other?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 08:01 PM

Yes I agree with you Al ....Joe is kind and helpful always seeing the best in everyone.....and you're not a bad fellow yourself....A

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 08:19 PM

I tend to agree that the situation in the Tuam home was deplorable, as it was in most of the other institutions. If we can stick to the facts and explore what actually happened in these institutions, then I would probably agree with most of what is said - and we would all learn something.

When you take advantage of these tragedies to promote an anti-Catholic agenda, then you go beyond the limits of fair play.

The two basic teachings of every Christian church are these: love God, and love your neighbor. If Christians do anything that violates these two precepts, then they have perverted the fundamental principles of the faith they profess - and they deserve to be condemned for that. But I know lots of Catholics and lots of Christians who live their lives by those two principles, and they do not deserve to be condemned along with the wrongdoers.

So, if you believe in fair play and tolerance, I ask you to discuss specific conduct and specific incidents and to back it up with documented, factual information. And please, refrain from blanket generalizations. Blame the people who are to blame, not the people who are fighting to fix what's wrong.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 08:21 PM

However good Joe is, and I don't dispute it, the other side of the story is that the Roman heirarchy has a long heritage of abuse, which my family bears testimony to. I'm taking this approach now to avoid any shilly-shallying around, an RC speciality.

My grandmother, brought up in Belgian high society, was required by that Church to undergo advanced catechistic training prior to marrying a "heathen" Englishman, who would also have to convert, in order to set up a good Catholic family in pagan England. Towards the end of the training, the catechist, a priest of some reputation in Belgium, attempted to rape her, a perverted form of the feudal "droits de cuissage" originally intended to show the family where the power lay. He forgot that she was the daughter of a war hero, and she fought better than he did, escaping. Returning home distraught, she told her parents the Catholic wedding in Ostend Cathedral was off, she was packing immediately and would have a registry office wedding in London. To prevent the scandal, Malines Archdiocese accepted that she could have the wedding, and that they would have no more claim over her and her descendants. That was in the 1920s.
In the first years of this century, working in Belgium, I uncovered a project hatched by a Roman Catholic Order which would have exposed my daughter to the not so tender mercies of a large number of the incurably mentally ill, "assisting them in their reinsertion into society", to use the exact words of a Mother superior General in Court. It is part of a wider pattern involving the same group of people at the heart of some of the Belgian child abuse allegations. They have no less than five times put up an appearance of contrition, and five times have relapsed. Their contrition is for children, for the credulous, it is not meant.

The above is not something possibly mis-reported, but the first-hand testimony of my grandmother to me and my own direct experience, checked by some serious Belgian authorities. The report behind the Irish situation is coherent in terms of the attitude, it is based on facts in the public record, and so cannot be denied. The weak reaction of the Roman Church is also coherent with its past policy of coverups.

I'd compare it to the problem the military face with prisoner abuse: it happens, it's not common, but unlike in Rome, it is sorted out with serious legal repercussions to those responsible. It stems from a sense of over-empowerment, self-righteous virtue and contempt for "the others". In the military, it comes from the barrel of a rifle, in the Church, from the sense of being God's Select. But in both instances, it is abusive, and that is the truth. It does not apply to the entire organisation, but it dishonours the whole.

So if Joe feels got at, it's because he is more than somewhat in denial. It may not be him or his immediate circle, but it is part of the body whose virtue he would defend, and it is more widespread than he thinks. I and mine are owed some serious apologies by Rome, rather, for not taking proper measures to control the problem. They said they'd not bother us again and did. Their word to me is worthless, and my willingness to tolerate their flim-flam zero. So no, I'm not going to deny the evidence of my own eyes, nor will I apologise for what I have had to say, because it aligns with my own testimony, not something reported or third-hand. Some elements of the Roman heirarchy over more than 100 years have had an entirely too close relationship with Satanism, a manmade fabulation, and some elements of Rome's foundation are not what they claim. It does not invalidate the reality of justified faith, as that goes far beyond their remit, for all that they claim otherwise, but it does bring into question their rights to claim virtue.

Sorry, but that's how the world is in reality. I didn't make it that way, I'd like to have it otherwise, but if we're to improve it we must start from where we really are now.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 08:38 PM

Unless you have a name, Guest, you have no credibility.
And in this thread, we're talking about institutions in Ireland - although I'm sure there also are bad people in Belgium who are Catholics, even some priests. And every time a priest commits a crime, it is a scandal and a shame.

Yes, it's true that there are all sorts of people in this world who do all sorts of horrible things. Not all of them are Catholic, and not all Catholics do horrible things. Whoever they are, they should be reported to and prosecuted through criminal justice authorities. If nobody had the courage to report the crime to authorities until ninety years later, then the offense is going to be very difficult to prosecute. Nonetheless, I am sorry for what happened to your grandmother - and I do believe it may have happened as you describe.

Yes, I'm sure the apology was inadequate and unbelievable. Very often, apologies (and reparations) are demanded from people who had nothing to do with the crime that was committed - and there's not much they can do about a crime committed ninety years ago. And yet, the outrage rightly continues. When a horrible crime is committed, nothing can be done to fix it. And if you insist on going to Rome to seek a remedy for a crime committed in Belgium, you're looking in the wrong place.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 12:28 AM

Not sure about your first or your last points there, Joe, I have to say. In fact, looking back again, I am sure you have them both wrong -

i. It is the facts that the Guest adduced, not what his identity may be, which matter here. I am sure he will have good reason for acting anonymously. But even were he acting merely perversely in remaining anon., that would in no way affect the significance of his allegations, whose probable truth you appear to acknowledge.

ii. No; he is looking in the right place for final resolution of the matter: it is ultimately "Rome", the Vatican, which must acknowledge the fault or it remains a stain on the reputation of the Church whose ultimate authority & fountainhead it is, whatever redress might have been provided by civil law and the competent national legal authorities. The Belgian government or police or courts could not have produced the necessary absolution for the responsibility of the Church for the sins and crimes that the perpetrators within that Church had committed. Until that has been achieved, the matter remains unresolved, and the 'remedy' unadministered.

Hope my meaning clear here.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 12:58 AM

Your argument is based on a misunderstanding of the authority structure of the Catholic Church, Mike. It is far more decentralized than you understand. Your belief is that it is a simple, top-down, absolute monarchy. The reality is far more complex than that.

In almost all matters but doctrine, the orders come from the local bishop's office - and the operation of mother-and-baby homes is not a matter of doctrine. Even the national council of bishops or the national primate, cannot overrule a bishop in his own diocese. In the U.S. in 2002, all Catholic dioceses but one adopted a national system of safeguards against child molestation - neither they nor Rome could make the guy change his ways until he retired [this was archconservative Fabian Bruskiewicz of Lincoln, Nebraska].

Of course, the Irish institutions were run mostly by orders of nuns, and religious orders have their own autonomy. The local bishop has only limited say-so about the activity of religious orders in his diocese. In the U.S., reparations for child molestation were paid by local bishops if the offender was a diocesan priest, and by the religious order if the offender was member of an order.

Most of the time, I'm happy about this decentralized power structure, because it means we American Catholics have not been heavily affected by the whims of the Italian power elite in Rome. They may rule Rome, but they have to rely on political give-and-take outside Rome.

During the reign of Benedict XVI, the Vatican finally bowed to international pressure and began to set up a churchwide system to control child abuse, but this is counter to the ordinary system of operation of the church.

It's ironic - so many people condemn the Catholic Church for being the absolute monarchy that it isn't, and then they demand that it act like an absolute monarchy in situations like this.

-Joe Offer-

P.S. Our unnamed Guest can remain anonymous, but common courtesy here is to use a consistent name or consistent pseudonym on every post. No-name posts are rude and deceptive and downright cowardly, even if Mudcat has no rule prohibiting them. Oh, and I must say that our Guest's mention(s) of Satanism makes me wonder whether he/she is running on all four cylinders.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 03:00 AM

"Unless you have a name, Guest, you have no credibility."
Then the rules of this forum need to be altered.
Every point made on this forum is equally valid, whether it is made by the vast majority of those who decline to be identified or not, unless they are obvious trolls.
As far as apologising to Joe, there have been a number of unjustified flung around on this extremely emotive subject - perhaps apolgies all round might be in order.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 03:02 AM

Sorry - that should read "unjustified accusations and innuendos" - too early in the morning!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 03:13 AM

I agree with you, Joe, as I have frequently remarked on various threads, that the use of the designation 'Guest' with no further identification required, is evasive & potentially confusing; it used until recently not to be permitted and posts so headed were liable to be deleted, and I don't know why the rule was dropped, and I wish it could be restored.

But I still don't see that the practice deprives the contents of a post of credibility, which was what you appeared to be saying.

Re the post under consideration: it went back some way in history, to a point where I think the Vatican held more sway than it does now. Even if wrong about this, I do not think the Vatican should remain silent about evident abuses within your Church. IMO the institution, and the Church itself, are deprived of cred if the Pope does not even express an opinion on abuses which bring the Body of the faith into widespread public disrepute. I appreciate that there is not the least reason why the Vatican should care for the opinion as to its image of an atheistic outsider like me: but my point seems to me a valid one nonetheless.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 03:49 AM

The problem of the abuse of minors by adult priests, is almost impossible for the liberal wing of the church to address, as it brings faith and ideology into conflict.
Good men like Joe are caught in the crossfire.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 08:19 AM

About par for the course, isn't it, Joe, calling someone victimised by your Church a fruitcake? The need to fight dirty reveals the body you seek to defend has no defence. As it happens, I just completed a thorough medical workup in all aspects of my life, physical and psychological, and I can most certainly declare on independent medical evidence not only that the shrinks are entirely happy with me, but also that I have an IQ up with the absolute tops: I am not only firing on all four cylinders, but on all eight, horizontally opposed with a fully-functional turbo boost to boot. I work at post-doctoral level with London University's Advanced Studies School, including esoteric studies, and my peers do work on both sides of the boundary between dark and light. I do not, because I am clearly tasked to work in the light, but to do so have to have a certain knowledge of the other side: you will observe my rider that Satanism is a human invention. I was recently dragged along by my peers to the launch of Marco Pasi's study of Crowley's relationships with the political system of his day at Treadwells bookshop, a launch which was not short of satanists, and not all of them are New Age loonies: some respected academics are in their number. Rome gives them more than a little justification, in hard fact, and they raise exactly the same accusations against it as you do against them. More to the point, I have hard evidence they were close to Pope Leo XIII, and I suspect set roots in the Vatican they have never let go.
Now, as it happens, in checking yet again that what I have to say in the next section about The Log in the Pope's Eye remains true, I have discovered that a lobby has appeared making identical charges, which I have nothing to do with. They go further, adding a new accusation of ritual murder in Belgium involving some rather familiar names and linking in Canada, the Netherlands, UK and Ireland. They appear to be a tad psyched, true, in setting up their own common court, but having seen the way the public courts won't touch such matters with a bargepole and get forced out by the Church when they show an interest (Wim de Troy being a case in point) some such action must be necessary to offer the victims some kind of justice. So it is not just me, there is smoke and where there's smoke, there's fire.
So, for refusing to apologise for something I have nothing to apologise for, I am put under attack for being a victim. That's a pretty low form of bullying, Joe, and should be beneath you if you are all you claim to be. OK, it's a BS robust environment, but when you're claiming probity, you can't go there.

To return to the meme, what I still have no reply on is how a Pope can excommunicate the entire Mafia for the murder of one child and make no comment on the murder of eight hundred, when it is the body he is directly responsible for which has done it. Eight hundred as a simple instance in class action, in any case, there are alomst certainly far more: the real point is one of the Mote in the Pope's Eye, one would have thought that he would at least have cleaned his own house before throwing stones at another criminal organisation's.

Turning now to the question of identification, either you do or you don't. Max knows me, we talk on another forum, so there should be no issue there. You've had cases, quite recently too, of pseudo-use of Guest avatars, and in this case, as being from a family of victims it's quite important not to make myself identifiable. At the moment, the perpetrators are walking away whistling happily whereas someone speaking for a family twice victimised is under accusation. Happy now?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 08:49 AM

Nobody needs to vilify Joe for defending wicked people in a corrupt organisation.

Akenaton can be the poster boy far more easily. Perhaps he can explain why "liberals" in the church can't address abuse of children for reasons of ideology?

What are you trying to say Akenaton?

You really are sick. Truly sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 09:03 AM

Quiz: guess who posted this one (on this thread) below- and, when challenged to do so, never seemed to be able to come up with a credible source for the of the "30 percent sexual accusation figure" irresponsibly put forward as a fact- on the RC church and the homosexual community.

""On the abuse of boys, the Catholic Church and its celibacy rule has historically been a safe haven for male homosexuals, it is estimated that at least 30% of the priesthood are homosexual. The abuse was almost exclusively perpetrated by adult men on teenage boys, which would point to a sexual orientation factor coming into play.""

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 10:01 AM

Mthe GM says: Re the post under consideration: it went back some way in history, to a point where I think the Vatican held more sway than it does now. Even if wrong about this, I do not think the Vatican should remain silent about evident abuses within your Church. IMO the institution, and the Church itself, are deprived of cred if the Pope does not even express an opinion on abuses which bring the Body of the faith into widespread public disrepute. I appreciate that there is not the least reason why the Vatican should care for the opinion as to its image of an atheistic outsider like me: but my point seems to me a valid one nonetheless.

Mike, I think you have your timeline about the the increasing power of the Pope backwards. No Pope in the 20th century reigned long enough to amass the power needed to buck the Roman Curia and the local bishops - until John Paul II. And John Paul II was absolutely silent about the child molestation crisis, which is a shame and a scandal. It was Cardinal Ratzinger who finally instituted Vatican controls over priestly sexual abuse - and by that time, John Paul II was too ill to do much of anything.

So, although your timeline is backwards, your conclusion is absolutely correct. John Paul II had the power to do something, and he did nothing. And nobody can figure out why he failed to take action.

Sexual abuse by priests was widely reported in the American Catholic press as early as the 1970s, and there were strict screening processes in place when I was in the seminary in the 1960s. American bishops spent millions in the 1970s on treatment centers for abusive priests, but those treatments didn't work.

And then John Paul became Pope in 1978. By 2000, almost all the active bishops had been appointed by John Paul. And John Paul did nothing and said nothing to respond to the sex molestation - so the problem just kept getting worse and worse.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 10:38 AM

out of interest, I wonder if any mudcatters could name an institution wielding enormous power, and with global influence, that has no evil acts that can be laid at their door.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 10:57 AM

From WIKI....there are numerous studies Ed, but thank you for bringing it up.

Studies find it difficult to quantify specific percentages of Roman Catholic priests who identify as gay priests,[12][not in citation given] although the John Jay Report reported that "homosexual men entered the seminaries in noticeable numbers from the late 1970s through the 1980s",[13] and available figures for homosexual priests in the United States range from 15–58%.[12][14] A 2002 Los Angeles Times nationwide poll of 1,854 priests (responding) reported that 9 percent of priests identified themselves as homosexual, and 6 percent as "somewhere in between but more on the homosexual side." Asked if a "homosexual subculture" (defined as a "definite group of persons that has its own friendships, social gatherings and vocabulary") existed in their diocese or religious order, 17 percent of the priests said "definitely," and 27 percent said "probably." 53 percent of priests who were ordained in the last 20 years (1982-2002) affirmed such a subculture existed in the seminary when they attended.[14]

Anonymous studies have also suggested a prevalence of homosexual leanings in the Roman Catholic priesthood. Studies by Wolf and Sipe from the early 1990s suggest that the percentage of priests in the Catholic Church who admitted to being gay or were in homosexual relationships was well above the national average for the United States of America.[15] Elizabeth Stuart, a former convener of the Catholic Caucus of the Lesbian and Gay Christian movement claimed, "It has been estimated that at least 33 percent of all priests in the RC Church in the United States are homosexual."[16]

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 11:03 AM

The actual percentage is debatable, but certainly homosexuals are massively over represented in the priesthood, compared to percentages in the general public (1.5%)

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 12:04 PM

"Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them." 
― George Orwell, 1984

Wiki and the annomyous sources are hardly the calibre of "reliable sources" one would expect a "grown up" to use on such a serious matter, ake. That would hardly get you a pass on research beyond grade school.

Could the person you often quote from, anti-RC Orwell also influenced your logic (I use that term lightly on your contribution) on this topic?

One cannot really be a Catholic and grown up."
- George Orwell

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 12:28 PM

I believe Joe Offer has more reliable I information (based on actual research), than what you posted ake, (I recall he linked some in the past), if he feels there is any point in doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 12:34 PM

If Akenaton makes a link between being gay and abusing children, I question whether unsuspecting respectable people, gay or straight should be able to view his hateful and vile comments without a warning that people could be distressed by the lies and fantasy on the webpage?

He was asked about abuse of children and he justified it by quoting studies into how many priests are gay.

Is he linking the two?

How fucking sick and debased does he have to get before the oxygen of publicity is withheld?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 12:34 PM

Don't be silly Ed, WIKI has linked to several of the studies.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 12:38 PM

Joe has enough to do fending off the Mudcat anti faith "vultures", without involving him in your fantasies.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 12:46 PM

Regarding the statistics, I make no allegations or links, I only produce the figures and the circumstances.

"You can take a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink"

Put that in your book of quotes.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 12:51 PM

More digression-

Percentage in the general public- All sorts of percentages are thrown around here, but I don't want to delve further into this argument, but the Williams Institute report of 2011 reports 3.5% approx. of the adult population in the U. S. (or about 9 million) are homosexual.

More have had one or more encounters, but are normally heterosexual in their responses. See Wikipedia, a long but rather good article on the subject "Homosexuality".

A LA Times survey reported 9% of responding priests reported homosexuality, but most reports seem biased and that may also be true here. See Wikipedia, Homosexuality and Roman Catholic Priests. A Vatican directive (2005) said deeply rooted homosexuals should not be ordained.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 01:18 PM

Credible research on wiki, Ake, and from annon sources, Ake....not likely. Sketchy is a better term, a better onefmay bec flakey.

I suspevt if they were so credible, you would have been eager to provide the " kinda research" sources some time ago, when openly asked (as you seem eager to done with your hiv- gay stats stuff)..

When you post a statement, you own it, and it is your role to defend it, nor abandon it... it does not become property of some annon-source site to refend.

Good try at weaseling out from something "you" posted"...possibly when you were in a anti-homosexual, doublespeak-orwell, dream mode. But, I remain hopeul....it does not rule out that you may have a lot of gay worker-friends, and could " love gay-folks to death" in your non-mudcat life:)

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 01:58 PM

homos are all right...its the deeply rooted ones you gotta watch out for....

if the Pope says it, you can take his word for it.....

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 03:34 PM

But saying child molesting priests are a symptom of the percentage who are gay is ok?

It's a bit like when Seaham Cemetry said that as Akenaton is a Scottish greyhound trainer, he must have given puppies to a builder in Seaham to kill them if they don't make good runners. After all, the internet said Scottish greyhound trainers had puppies killed.

Akenaton bristled at the accusation, but thinks it OK to link gay people to paedophiles.

Double standards eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 03:39 PM

I'm not trying to start another thread to this thread, but I would love to hear the Vatican's definition of a 'deeply rooted' homosexual and how non-deeply rooted one would need to be to qualify for ordination.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 04:24 PM

"Double standards eh?"

Doublespeak;)

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 05:14 PM

Depends on who's doing the rooting, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 05:20 PM

Rooting? 

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 07:23 PM

Come, now, Ed T. Many words & phrases possess multiple meanings which context makes clear, and it is a disingenuously silly trick to try to ridicule a statement by exploiting a non-misunderstanding not brought about by such an ambiguity.

You will have to do better than that.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 07:51 PM

Routine?
Do the Chinese have difficulty taking Wayne Rooney seliousry?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 08:12 PM

Maybe not seliousry but possibly celeriacally.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 08:26 PM

The whole topic of priests and sexuality is a complex one. Wikipedia has an interesting article on Homosexuality and Roman Catholic Priests, and it rings pretty true to me. Yes, there were times in my eight years of seminary where there seemed to be a sexually-charged atmosphere dominated by homosexuals, and it didn't seem healthy. If people are planning on living a celibate life, then I don't think they should be sexually active, either homosexual or heterosexual - but I don't really see a need for priests to be celibate.

Like mg, I regularly look through the information on priest child molesters at http://bishopaccountability.org/, although I suspect we do it for different reasons. I go to look for people I've known, and I've known quite a few. Only two are people I thought might be homosexual. There's no information on the Website that one molested anyone - just that he was removed from ministry. He told me he's been HIV-positive for 25 years, but I don't know of any trouble he may have been in. The other one was accused recently of conduct in incidents that happened in the 1970s. But the priests I know that have been accused of sexual offenses, are almost all people I thought of as heterosexual, and usually people who seemed very normal and often extraordinarily popular and capable people. I don't know how anyone could have predicted that they would commit sexual offenses.

I think that most of us are far more uncertain about our sexuality that we'd like to think we are. It's a very awkward area, and very few of us get it completely right.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 08:27 PM

No, it's just a smalluity, not a big one?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 11:02 PM

I have a theory about why John Paul II neglected the child molestation crisis.

After he was shot and almost killed in 1981 (3 years after his election as Pope), JPII often said that his life was saved by a miracle, and he made a big deal about that miracle. He even built a gorgeous chapel in Zakopane, Poland, to commemorate that supposed miracle. I think that he began to regard himself as a "living saint," and thus may have lost the ability to perceive his own fallibility and the fallibility of his church. If you read things he wrote as Pope, that attitude came through. I think he also felt he was chosen by God to save the persecuted Polish church - and saviors tend to take a very defensive attitude about whatever it is that they're saving, even if they're saving something that is deeply flawed.

Ronald Reagan was almost killed about the same time, and he and JPII had similar attitudes. I think both believed that their unsuccessful assassination attempts proved they were Chosen By God to bring an end to godless Communism.

I've never had much good to say about JPII, and I sometimes wonder if that's why I lost my job at my Catholic parish. Many Catholics, especially the conservative ones, speak of JPII in hushed, reverential tones; and they cannot accept any criticism of the man. One time when I was teaching a religion class to adults, I dared to criticize JPII's writing style. I said that JPII's style was flowery, and that he had an annoying habit of quoting himself. He also used the "royal we" when speaking or writing, and he often didn't make a whole lot of sense. In contrast, I said that Benedict XVI had a writing style that was direct, clear, rational, and compassionate. A very conservative, very prominent member of the parish came up to me after class and castigated me for referring to JPII so irreverently. I mean, this guy reamed me up one side and down the other. He was MAD! Shortly afterwards, I was removed from my volunteer teaching position - and the pastor refused to tell me why. The pastor had removed me from a paid position a couple of years earlier, and he has tried (mostly unsuccessfully) over the years to remove me from other positions of influence. It's hard to fire a volunteer, but he keeps trying. So, when I was removed from the teaching position, I decided my financial contributions were better spent elsewhere. I went from donating $3,000 a year to nothing. Mudcat is one of the beneficiaries of that. I hope some of you purists don't mind that you're posting messages on a server that was paid for (at least partly) by money intended for the collection basket in a Catholic Church. I won't give a penny to my parish and my diocese until we get a new pastor and a new bishop.

Mind you, I am saying that Rome was aware only of the child molestation crisis and should have done something and didn't. I still believe that the Irish mother and baby homes, the industrial schools, and the Magdalene Laundries were completely beyond the awareness of Rome. Communication was far less effective, and there was no Pope until 1978 who had the power that John Paul II wielded. It may well be that his rockstar personality and the effectiveness of modern communications and his long reign, made John Paul II the most powerful Pope in history. And he wasted his power.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 11:43 PM

Oh, and I've often said that the Catholic Church doesn't say much about sex, and doesn't fit the stereotype of constant harangues against sex. That's generally true. However, if you Google Theology of the Body [also here (click)], you'll find that John Paul II certainly had a lot to say about sex. The "theology of the body" stuff is still very popular, and I make myself invisible whenever I'm invited to teach anything remotely related to it. Catholic married women with children seem to buy into this crap, including some women I (otherwise) respect very much - and they should know better.

It makes me cringe.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 02:55 AM

"I have a theory about why John Paul II neglected the child molestation crisis."
The church neglected the molestation (child rape) crisis, not just the pope.
Those on the 'prayer face' were aware it was going on; rather than prevent it, the acts were covered up and parents who reported incidents were bullied into silence.
His acts were sometimes noted; they were often referred to as 'eccentricities' and ' "weaknesses", and, if recurring, "kept an eye on".
If protests reached an embarrassing level, he was moved on to a parish where his 'little weaknesses' were not known, and eventually, if his behaviour continued to draw attention to himself, he was sent to far-flung places like Africa, where it didn't matter too much what he did to whom.
Nothing to do with a 'near-martyred Pope', rather with a Church that was prepared to allow the use of children in their care by clerics who wielded enormous spiritual influence.
It is interesting that the greatest support you are getting here is coming from Mudcat's resident homophobe and that his homophobia is now entering this discussion - damned by rotten praise, I would suggest.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 04:16 AM

Well, if I were to say that an orange is a citrus fruit, Jim Carroll would find a way to disagree with me. And then if I agreed with what he said to the contrary, he'd disagree with me again.

As I have said before, the primary responsibility for all of these things lies in the hands of the local bishop. Many others share the blame, including law enforcement authorities who looked the other way and parents who were afraid to contact the authorities. Despite appearances to the contrary, the Catholic Church is not an absolute monarchy ruled from Rome. There is an enormous amount of local autonomy in all matters but doctrine. Nonetheless, John Paul II was in a position to do something because of the great power he had amassed during his lengthy reign, and he didn't even acknowledge that there was a crisis. Benedict XVI, on the other hand, made a significant response to the child molestation scandal (even before he was elected Pope) - and Francis has continued that effort.

All of the is quite factual - I've studied the politics of the Catholic Church since my seminary days in the 1960s. But Mr. Carroll is duty-bound to disagree with my every word.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 05:37 AM

"As I have said before, the primary responsibility for all of these things lies in the hands of the local bishop"
The responsibility belongs to everybody in the church who knew about it and did nothing - from the ground floor of the church.
The church was, and to some extent continues to be shrouded in a cloak of secrecy
You would do better to respond to my statements rather than alluding to my errors.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 12:32 PM

do not count out satanism...case in the news of a priest who murdered a nun some time ago and satanism believed to be involved. Concerns it has happened at very high levels of Vatican.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 12:55 PM

Priests take a vow of celibacy, but they are human and the body's urges call.
The statement I quoted with the words "deeply rooted" came from a committee, not the pope. That remark and a couple of other responses tend toward condemnation of homosexuality as a contributor to molestation, which was not intended by my rather careless partial quotation.

There is no correlation that I know of between homosexuality and molestation tendencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 03:24 PM

Firstly, paedophilia is very rare in the abuse committed by Catholic priest....even rarer than paedophilia in the general public.
84% of the abuse was committed by adult men against teenage boys and youths.   This is simple homosexual assault of minors.
Studies say that there are very high numbers of homosexuals in the priesthood, that there is a strong homosexual subculture in the seminaries (as Joe has noted)....56% of ordained priests interviewed agreed that this subculture existed.

Does anyone seriously put up the suggestion that heterosexuals are attracted sexually to their own gender?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 05:26 PM

It is not rare at all. Time after time we hear about altar boys being raped. That is pedophilia. They call 12 year olds non-children. What dumb idiocy. Of course a 12 year old is a child. Of course a 13 year old is as well. A 17 year old is not...the idiots like donahue keep saying they are not children because they have reached puberty..well, little girls are reaching puberty at the age of 9...are they not children?

It is fine with me if 100% of priests are homosexual, male or female. It is not fine with me if any at all priests, male or female are child abusers and twisters of truth by calling it by another name.

I do not care what adults do with other non-exploited consensual other adults. It is no more my business than what my dentist does in consensual activity.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 09:09 PM

"Does anyone seriously put forward the suggestion that heterosexuals are attracted sexually to their own gender?"

Well, one mudcat poster says it is more of a choice? Situational homosexuality is also a strong consideration?

Regardless, beyond homophobia, does it really matter if a representative group of priests snd monks lean towards their own sex, or not? If you arevnot a RC, "whatvdoesbit mattervtonyou, it is not your concern.

It is a different matter if any adult in a position of trust and power takes advantage of a minor, girl or boy, regardless if they are a priest, a nun, a minister, a teacher, a doctor,a baby sitter, a coach, or a scout or girl guide leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 02:31 AM

MG and ED, we are trying to determine why these rates of sexual abuse pertained in only the Catholic Church.

There are some pretty obvious factors that apply only to the Catholic Church and which may have a bearing....are they to be completely ignored because of a twisted political ideology?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 02:48 AM

Seeing people as being of equal status based on their sexual orientation is not twisted political ideology.

Homophobia however, is twisted. Not to mention sick, horrid, disgraceful and pathetic.

Come to think of it, thanks to advances in safeguarding legislation, it is illegal to propogate it where Akenaton lives, making him an alleged criminal for incitement to hatred. Free speech is responsible speech. He props up his hate with lies and distorted information. Akenaton isn't fit to be responsible for his keyboard.

Yet he is quick to mention his solicitor whenever his own morals are brought up.

I find it fascinating that such people still exist in modern society. Still, time heals all wounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:38 AM

If a male teacher abuses a minor, let's say a girl. It is because he is a pervert, not because he has a teaching degree, is a heterosexual, may be a Lutheran, nor because his favourite colour is blue.

Linking unrelated dots, and putting forward sketchy and unreliable statistics (and making some up) in a clear attempt to to demonize homosexuality does nothing to increase the understanding of unfortunate past happenings in the RC church. Given it is not a first attempt to demonize homosexuality, I suspect few are fooled by such approaches and see it for what it really is.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Andrez
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM

Working from the premise of not confusing the issue with facts, regardless of what the RC church and its adherants may or may not have done elswhere or elsewhen, here are a few 'facts' about the Tuam story and how the media have used it to push their various agendas.

Check this out. The Truth Behind Tuam

Cheers,

Andrez

PS: Professionally, I have contributed to several submissions to our own Australian Royal Commission into Institutional responses to Child Sexual Abuse. Their Interim report has just been released for those who are interested in reading factual stuff as opposed to conjecture and media hype.

Royal Commission Interim Report June 30, 2014

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 10:13 AM

And what, pray, does an inconclusive report about Australia have to do with Ireland, Andrez, other than throw yet another red herring into the soup? And for the rest of it, that's been rehashed till the cows come home here and the conclusion is, "Guilty as charged" for all that Joe wants it to be otherwise.

You wouldn't happen to be Cathlic yourself, now, would you, by any chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 10:46 AM

throwing red herrings in the soup.....hmmmm!

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 12:26 PM

If it were Australian soup Al, they'd use red snapper not red herring...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 09:56 PM

metaphorical herrings in the metaphorical soup

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Janie
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 11:20 PM

Thank you, Andrez.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Andrez
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 08:27 AM

Not a problem Janie, thanks :-)

To respond to one comment above, the reason for posting the media watch story was to highlight the way the Murdoch press promoted the story in Oz and how his lot in the UK then took up the story from their Oz paper with bugger all fact-checking and research and absolutely no interest in the underlying issues and reprinted it with banner headlines just to flog more of their newspapers to people who are happy to have their prejudices and stereotypes reinforced and untroubled by critical thinking.

The reason for the other link was simply to share with those interested some current information about child abuse that has been happening in Oz through institutions run by a range of religious and non-religious organisations. Today we heard about the harm experienced by children in state care:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-02/siblings-sexual-abuse-highlights-flaws-in-victorian-state-care/5566378

Until we get a clearer picture through better evidence (i.e. not the Murdoch press) about what actually happened at Tuam, I'm not sure there is much we can do about those potentially awful events by now.

That said regardless of where we live now we have a responsibility to do what we can to see that children can be safe and free from harm regardless of whose care they are in. If those people or institutions let children get hurt then the book (legal not holy) should be thrown at them. Hear that Harris?

Cheers,

Andrez

PS: Is there going to be any UK investigation into who knew what and how Saville got away with his 'capers' over the years?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 12:55 PM

There is plenty we can do about the situation in Tuam and elsewhere. The mothers and babies are still alive and are coming forward. For one thing we can listen to them. For another we can let the truth play out without trying to block it..let's wait for all the facts, let's not get too excited..other religions are just as guilty etc., they hate us because we are Catholic, Salvation Army, Christians and we were told we could expect to be persecuted.    just let the truth come out as it is violently trying to right now. that alone will be very healthy. A knowledge among current caretakers that the world is watching is going to benefit everyone. Situations in institutions right now will improve with better focus. Like the orphanages in Tibet that a friend visits..where they break the childrens' arms for some reason..take out the toys that are donated only when there are visitors or inspectors...don't stifle the truth, don't expect that people running institutions can not get jaded and corrupted, regardless of their good intentions. Assume that all over the world equal or worse things are happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 01:05 PM

The NHS published its investigation into Savile five days ago, I think you'll find. Another prominent Australian, Rolf Harris, has also just been sent down. Now then, where's the same with all the RC priests who did the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM

Our too-rude-to-name-himself Guest asks, "Now then, where's the same with all the RC priests who did the same?"

Well, in Ireland, you can read the Ryan Report, or near-daily articles in the Irish Times.

In the U.S., try http://bishopaccountability.org/.

It's not like these things are deep, dark secrets any more.

The Wikipedia article on Catholic Sex Abuse Cases has a bibliography and filmography that will keep you enthralled for years.

I can't tell if this rude Guest is the same rude Guest that said, "the conclusion is, "Guilty as charged" for all that Joe wants it to be otherwise."

Yes, I would much prefer that it be otherwise, but the fact of the matter is that a number of priests were guilty of molesting children.

And indeed, conditions were very poor in Catholic and government-run institutions in Ireland in the first half of the twentieth century. A religion that professes the need to "love thy neighbor" betrayed that principle in the operation of these institutions. Alas, I wish it had been otherwise, but I cannot deny that these things happened.

And for that matter, I never have denied that these things happened, and I have worked since the 1960s to right these wrongs - no matter what cowardly nameless people would have you think about me. Why would I do otherwise?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM

" no matter what cowardly nameless people"
Are we to understand that those who choose not to reveal their names on this forum are henceforth to be regarded "cowardly" or "too-rude-to-name-himself"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 03:08 PM

'Our too-rude-to-name-himself Guest asks'

I agree recognisble identities on posts are much preferable but as long as the site allows anonymous posting or tolerates posters using several identities etc etc any name calling of people who are within what the rules of the site allow, is highly misplaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 04:28 PM

well in a way...theres the rules, but theres also the spirit of mudcat. which joe and max have done their damndest to make a friendly and inclusive place.

I hate it when guest fires a off a few highly insulting and personal remarks, and Jim - you've been round here long enough to know what I mean. stuff like that feels like an attack by apaches - they melt back into cyberspace having inflicted as much vitriol on the atmosphere of mudcat as they can. Martin Gibson was a sweetheart compared to those buggers.

I quite like it when you insult me Jim - because fundamentally, you're an okay guy. I hate it when some turd I don't know, but obviously knows me, spews out a piece of insulting, undermining malice.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 01:06 AM

If a person is an occasional visitor here and posts purely objective information, particularly if it's musical information, then I have no problem with that person not using a name - and we don't require use of names because we don't want to scare away occasional visitors who simply want to provide information or ask a question.

But if a person is making critical remarks about me, then I think he/she is rude and a coward if he/she posts anonymously.

That's my opinion. That is not Mudcat policy, but I do believe I have a right to an opinion.

And the unnamed Guest in this thread has made all sorts of critical remarks that affect me directly, so I think I have a right to say that I think his anonymity is cowardly.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:12 AM

and its destructive as well Joe.

Some piece of shit called my website a shambles. and to be honest - the website was never there to get gigs. it was place I could publish my songs and explain them - write essays about them, without pissing about with halfwit record companies.

Fasthosts who were the web providers had been arseholes for years, absolute hell to deal with.

So the upshot was - I let the site go. Despite the fact there was twelve years work on it.

I can't see any justification for these bloody stinkpots -popping in to piss on us.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:37 AM

"If a person is an occasional visitor here and posts purely objective information, particularly if it's musical information, then I have no problem with that person not using a name - and we don't require use of names because we don't want to scare away occasional visitors who simply want to provide information or ask a question.

But if a person is making critical remarks about me, then I think he/she is rude and a coward if he/she posts anonymously."

In complete agreement with you on this Joe, so wouldn't a sensible compromise be that Guests are only allowed to post on the music related section and not the B/S section, which is where the most contentious topics are posted, and therefore where insults are most likely to occur?

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:19 AM

"and therefore where insults are most likely to occur?"
I take it you've never participated in a "what if folk" debate Rog!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:31 AM

"But if a person is making critical remarks about me, then I think he/she is rude and a coward if he/she posts anonymously."
.,.,

Indeed, Joe ... Or even under a consistent pseudonym. I think the person who calls himself 'GUEST giovanni' & has for some unfathomable reason taken to abusing Richard Bridge & me on another thread just as contemptible, hiding behind an assumed name like that. Not that I am particularly bothered by his gadfly buzzing; but I think the point holds here.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM

Jim - I did say MORE likely to occur. I've only been here since 2007, but it certainly has been my experience that this is the case. If you disagree, then fine. 'Twas just a suggestion.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:18 AM

Can't read my own post! MOST, not MORE, but anyway you know what I mean.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:36 AM

I agree with Rog Peek's suggestion that 'guests' should not be permitted to post to discussion threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:55 PM

Did I kill this thread, or are people just argued out?

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 03:20 AM

" I did say MORE likely to occur."
Sorry Rog - 'twas but a joke - I tend to need to lighten these discussions for myself in order to return to them - I find some of them extremely harrowing.
I personally have never been comfortable with the idea of discussing with people whose names I don't know - somehow, addressing replies to names which seem downright discourteous doesn't seem right.
On the other hand, to make a rule for guests on one type of posting seems discriminating to those who, for one reason or another, don't wish to be identified, doesn't seem the way to go.
I don't think you have killed this thread - far from it.
Here in Ireland there is a bit of a lull in the proceedings - it has disappeared from the letter pages of the newspapers for the present, but no doubt, it will be back.
Ireland has been in the process of reading the entrails of its state and religious-run organisations for over a decade now, and no doubt, will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
Further issues are lurking in the shadows; the testing of untried drugs on the children in some of these institutions, the conditions in nursing homes and homes for the elderly and in mental homes being among them.
It has never been an attack on religion - if it had it would have been a severe case of self-harm as it is Catholics who have been in the forefront of the campaigns.
It is, hopefully, the long-overdue and much-needed cleaning out of an Augean stable - more power to that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:41 AM

Thanks Jim, I do take your point.

"Here in Ireland there is a bit of a lull in the proceedings". - I've been in Ireland myself since the middle of May, and you're right, almost nothing on the news recently. The most important news item at present seems to be the 'tragic' loss of a couple of Garth Brooks concerts in Croke Park.

As you said though, for sure more coming down the road.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 08:04 AM

"The most important news item at present seems to be the 'tragic' loss of a couple of Garth Brooks concerts in Croke Park."
We do have our priorities over here!
It seems he's quite likely to cancel all his concerts - wouldn't it be wonderful if politicians were as reliable in living up to their promises?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 10:54 AM

Wouldn't it just!

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 04:15 AM

anyway - the point is this. I imagine Joe finds it hard enough having to defend almost single handedly an institution from which he derives spiritual sustenance - defend it from his friends. good people who are there in the telephone book -genuine people...

that some cyber generated ectoplasm should appear out of cyberspace and heap personal insults is horrible, and then disappear like the fucking Lone Ranger....

say! who was that masked man! look! he's shit on the carpet!
that was the Lone Ranger, ...the big one is his horse, and the Indian's there to wipe his arse! that's the paper!

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 04:37 AM

Sorry - have I missed something here?
It seems to me that 'Guest' - whoever he/she is - has put forward a number of valid and important points here which have been stifled and ignored by cries of - "how dare you sir/madam - are you a member of this exclusive club - I'll call the doorman to see you out!"
Insults?
Some of us have been told by Joe that the opinions we hold are not valid because we are atheists and therefore we have an agenda behind what we say and believe.
Don't know about anybody else, but I find that pretty ****** insulting.
Methinks, the lady doth protest too much.
How about dealing with what he/she has said rather than hiding behind his/her anonymity.
I don't know who Akenaton or Keith A or Bobad are, but I spend a great deal of time and effort responding to views they express which I find offensive, and sometimes downright dangerous.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 05:58 AM

an agenda. yes I suppose I have.

haven't we all got agendas - its not like we've all emerged from a vacuum.
why wouldn't you have an agenda.

the fact is you can't 'deal with' and address every legitimate concern, and Joe is wise enough to realise he can't answer every criticism of the Catholic church - he's too intelligent to attempt to blether down and brush aside every argument.

some stuff like the Spanish Inquisition and the abuse by a priest of my cousin when he was a kid - just unforgiveable -whatever Christ commanded of us - we are not made from stone..

but I have a friend recently bereaved - who derives great sustenance from the Catholic church. support better than I can give. somehow they seem to have something to give which some people need. you have to understand jim, there is no way of annulling all our agendas.

we should not ask or expect it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 07:05 AM

Sorry Al - I'm not accusing anybody of having an agenda - you, least of all.
What I am saying, before this gets bogged down in "agendas", alongside anonymity, is, as far as I can see, 'Guest' has made a number of valid points and it doesn't matter a rats arse whether or not we know who he/she is or not.
Please do not allow the anonymity that most members of this forum choose to post under, act as a diversion to the points being made.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 03:06 PM

I reckon that was an insightful post, al, for what its worth.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 04:28 PM

well I've had a look through guests posting, and to tabulate his brilliant debating angles seem to be:-

1) the Roman Catholic Church are a bad lot
2) the Pope hasn't admitted they are a rotten lot
3) there hasn't been an official report calling them a bad lot
4) Joe is 'in denial'

in rebuttal

1) Most catholics admit the church has done some bad stuff. that's the nature of faith. rather like bravery in battle - it requires suspension of the imagination (Hemingway). if a soldier thinks of all the bullets that could kill him, he would be paralysed with fear and could not function. similarly if the believer thought about the likelihood of man nailed to cross being the son of god, they couldn't believe - many need the theatre and poetry of church ritual to make that leap of belief

2) The Pope has the precedent of Gerard Ratner to know what would happen if he came clean. He owes to the faithful to put on a brave face and front his product.

3) Who do do suggest to examine the Church....... Which Magazine?

4) Joe has admitted the church has faults and he has admitted witnessing the skulduggery. But he needs the church. Leave him be. Stop accusing him. Guest wants more than he has to give. The rest is courtesy. And what if he is in denial. He's human. A great human being. Talk to him with respect

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 10:07 PM

what the pope owes the faithful is honesty. He can start by getting a new spokesman or spokeswoman..the current one seems disentangled from the truth. We have a church that is corrupt to the core..you can't tell where the Mafia starts and the church stops. There is systemic abuse of children..it is built in. There is systemic cruelty built in. We have cardinals and bishops dropping like flies from various crimes that either they committed or oversaw. The pope is trying. If he tries too hard he will be murdered, I think it goes without saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:16 AM

Jim Carroll says: Some of us have been told by Joe that the opinions we hold are not valid because we are atheists and therefore we have an agenda behind what we say and believe.

Care to find an example where I said such a thing, Mr. Carroll? I question the validity of opinions because of lack of evidence and rationality and context. The reason motivating people to post such opinions may be the agenda, but I question opinions only if they don't make sense.

This statement of yours is one example of an invalid statement. I dare you to find evidence to support your allegation.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:15 AM

Al Whittle brings up a couple of examples: some stuff like the Spanish Inquisition and the abuse by a priest of my cousin when he was a kid - just unforgiveable

And he's right - such things are unforgiveable.

I get such things thrown at me all the time, because I'm one of those horrible, unsympathetic, criminal-coddling people who works for jail reform and against capital punishment. The argument of the horror and frequency of crime is indeed a powerful and valid argument, and it must not be ignored - wherever and whenever it happened, and whoever committed the crime. And that argument is particularly strong when the crime was done under the guise of a religion that preaches love of neighbor.

But rational people don't favor crime or criminals, or deny that the crimes were committed. People work for a tempered response to crime not because they favor crime, but because they think there should be limits to the extent a civilized society will go in its response to crime. I think some people have figured out that retribution for crime simply doesn't work. Especially for horrible crimes against children, nothing can be done to repay and repair the damage done. So, all that can be done is to fix the problem so it's unlikely to happen again, and do our best to heal the trauma that was caused.

We can't deny that crime happens - it happens all the time, and sometimes the criminals are people that we know and love. And when the criminals are our own people, it's hard for us to believe the allegations, no matter what amount of proof is provided. Those criminals must be punished, but then I think that most must be given a chance to reform their lives - even though the full price of the crime can never be extracted, and "justice" can never fully be satisfied. And certainly we must do all we can to ensure the healing of the effects of the crime and just compensation to victims.

But if we dwell on crime and expend all our energy extracting payment for crime, we hurt ourselves. And we sometimes end up extracting payment from people who are no more guilty of the crime than we ourselves are.

So, it's an issue that must be explored honestly. I think our primary goal should be to do our best to heal individuals and society and the injury done to them by crime - and trying to prevent such crime from happening again.

When the crime happened long ago, I think our approach must be different. There comes a point in time where nothing can be done, since the evidence is cold and the criminals are elderly or dead. Instead of trying to punish wrongdoers and compensate victims, we must study such crimes to learn how to stop them from happening again.

And although I seem to be in the minority on this, I think it's time that we stop attempting to prosecute people for crimes they committed during World War II. The wrong done was terrible, but World War II ended 69 years ago. Nothing can be done to fix those things now.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:35 AM

"Care to find an example where I said such a thing, Mr. Carroll? "
Well Mr Joe (don't you find this hostile formality as childish as I do?
You have persistently talked about agendas and attacks on the church rather than address the actual events under discussion and their implications
"But if we dwell on crime and expend all our energy extracting payment for crime"
As with the 'septic tank' red herring, you continue to either miss or avoid the point.
Nobody is calling for punishment - as far as I can see, they never have.
Those of us concerned about the events are asking for recognition of the wrongs done to the victims - slow enough to obtain from the government, virtually existent from the church.
We also suggest that a body such as the Catholic Church has proved itself unsuitable to be involved in anything other than spiritual guidance - certainly not influence on our politics, on sexual practices and on medical procedures.
You really seem to be totally unaware of the influence on your church these events have had here.
Attendance at masses have radically diminished, even here in the faithful west, recruitment into the clergy has reached crisis point in some parts of the country, and the clergy as a whole have lost the respect of many believers.
The effects of all this have been traumatic on many of the people I know and count among my friends (and relatives)
Your ignoring this situation is little more than self harm.
Personally, as an atheist, I should be happy about this, but I would far rather people made their minds up on the question on the basis of rational thinking rather than on the behaviour of criminal priests and a defensive and secretive hierarchy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:42 AM

I don't entirely agree with you Joe. 'Wherever and whenever it happened' would imply that even 'old' crimes shouldn't go unpunished. Retribution is what most victims want. And while paedophiles and abusers are sitting in prison, they aren't abusing anyone. Result!

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM

Yeah, but you have to think about more than what will satisfy victims, Eliza. I know a very smart and dedicated attorney who has worked for years in the victims' rights movements. Her sister was murdered by a boyfriend over 25 years ago, and the boyfriend went to prison. The mother and other family members have been avid opponents of parole ever since, and they get hundreds of people to show up in protest every time anyone comes up for parole, and especially the man who murdered my friend's sister.

And I sympathize with this family completely, and I do my best to avoid conflict with this woman. I know them quite well, and I know how much they're still hurting. But this man committed one crime in his life, a crime of passion when he was twenty. Now he's almost fifty, and an objective mind can wonder what good it does to keep him in prison at taxpayer expense. Maybe it's better to let the guy out and give him the chance to do something constructive to repay what he's done. Maybe punishment is not the only answer.

We all do things that are wrong, and there is at least some requirement for punishment and reparation when we do such things. Maybe positive responses can be a more appropriate solution, but we must not forget the concerns and needs of the victims in the process.

---

Jim Carroll, I guess you really don't have any evidence to support your allegations against me. All you can do is repeat your allegations, again with no evidence. Yes, I am well aware that much harm was done in these institutions fifty years ago. And yes, I am reading a lot and trying to learn the truth and the lessons behind it all.

But having worked thirty years as an investigator, I have an annoying habit of looking for facts and evidence and data that are unclouded by propaganda. I can't help it. I want to know the truth.

You say you have no agenda, Jim, but yet you state an agenda: We also suggest that a body such as the Catholic Church has proved itself unsuitable to be involved in anything other than spiritual guidance - certainly not influence on our politics, on sexual practices and on medical procedures and the church has proved beyond doubt that they are not to be trusted where children are concerned.

I think I'd agree that the Catholic Church has had far too much influence on legislation and government operations in Ireland. Church and state should not be bedfellows, and they certainly have been in bed together in Ireland for far too long - but they do seem to be moving apart. But still, your position implies a need for total suppression of church, allowing it to speak only on what you deem to be "spiritual" matters. I think it is important that Church speak strongly on moral matters as a counterbalance against State. And to my mind (and according to Catholic teaching), sexual conduct is a relatively minor aspect of morality. The moral issues of peace and poverty are far more important than the issue of sexual behavior, and many churches have been powerful voices on behalf of the poor and against warfare.

As for dealing with children, I would certainly agree that all children should have the option of non-religious education, and I don't think taxpayers should pay for any sort of religious education. Despite the fact that there have been many abuses, especially in Ireland, I think that church institutions and schools have often done a great service in the education and care of children, so each situation must be considered individually instead of being subjected to another of your blanket condemnations.

No doubt, there have been many abuses that warrant condemnation. But many children, myself included, have had wonderful experiences and excellent education in church-operated institutions.

So, Mr. Carroll, er...."Jim," I think you need to work on your logic.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 05:35 AM

I think it's time that we stop attempting to prosecute people for crimes they committed during World War II. The wrong done was terrible, but World War II ended 69 years ago. Nothing can be done to fix those things now. -Joe-
.,,.
I don't think the point is to 'fix' anything, Joe; but to demonstrate, not least to the perpetrators themselves, that some crimes are literally and absolutely unforgivable, and that no statute of limitation, emotional as well as legal or forensic, can be permitted to apply to them. It needs to be shown that, in certain instances, it is right that there should be 'no hiding place'.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 05:37 AM

... E V E R

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 06:03 AM

I respect your standpoint, Joe, as always. But I would like to point out that the murderer of the young woman 'is now in his fifties'. Unfortunately, the dead woman is not and never will be. And the very fact he committed this crime on parole would seem to me to justify the fears many people express about 'letting out' offenders. As you know, I used to visit prisoners, and had a naive feeling of sympathy with them and a wish to do some good for them. However (as you also know) my naivety gave way to cynicism. I'm on the side of the law-abiders. One can't have a foot in both camps.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 09:22 AM

"I guess you really don't have any evidence to support your allegations against me. "
Allegations- what allegations?
I have responded to your unforgivable suggestion that your own septic tank would not be unsuitable to use as a burial-place.
In reply to your @a few bad apples" and "dim and distant" arguments, have pointed out that it is the church that is at fault for facilitating the pedophile attacks in the first place and that they continue to hide the documented facts from the victims and their survivors - that is just about the limit of my "allegations" all the rest has been information I have supplied, which you have yet to directly respond to.
"but yet you state an agenda:"
If that is an agenda, it certainly isn't one of my making.
The church is battling to maintain its grip on the education of children here i Ireland; it continues to use its power to prevent new laws on pregnancy termination (despite two high-profile cases of deaths having been caused by the present ones) and homosexuality.
If this is an agenda, the it is far higher up the packing order than anybody here.
Wake up and smell the coffee Joe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 09:45 AM

WW2 may have ended 69 years ago, but there are still people alive today who witnessed (and incredibly survived) the most unimaginable horrors in the Holocaust. There are death-camp survivors who can never forget (whether they can forgive, I do not know) the abject cruelty and wickedness they suffered, or the faces of the people who committed these atrocities. No matter how old the criminals are, IMO they are still punishable. Any other course is an insult to the millions whom we can never let slip from our collective memories.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 09:53 AM

The pope has spoken out today against all those in the church who shielded abusers within the ranks.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 06:49 PM

Eliza, please note that the man I spoke of committed only one crime in his life - he murdered his girlfriend when he was about twenty years old. He has not been out of prison since. His petitions for parole have been denied a number of times.

While I can understand why people think that crimes of the Holocaust should be prosecuted no matter how long ago they took place, I think it is well-nigh impossible to conduct a fair trial of a crime that took place over 69 years ago, amidst the chaos and confusion of war. And those accused were barely adults when they committed their crimes.

---

Jim Carroll, I quoted your allegation, and I will quote it again: Some of us have been told by Joe that the opinions we hold are not valid because we are atheists and therefore we have an agenda behind what we say and believe.

And once again, I challenge you to find just one quote from me that supports your allegation.

Your opinions, sir, are not valid because you continually fail to support them with logic and evidence. Belief or lack of belief does not affect the validity of an opinion. What counts, is logic and evidence.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 07:20 PM

I agree with Joe, trials 60-70 years after the event cannot be fair. A number of the guards were Ukrainian, pressed into service. Could they refuse and not be court-marshalled or immediately shot?

I don't know what this has to do with the Tuam Bon Secours nuns.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 03:21 AM

You have persistently avoided answering the criticism made of the church's behaviour by describing it as an attack on the church and have depicted us making those criticisms as "taking advantage of of these tragedies" to do so.

"When you take advantage of these tragedies to promote an anti-Catholic agenda, then you go beyond the limits of fair play."

"Of course all such atrocities are wrong, no matter who commits them. All of them must be studied and responded to, not just those committed by people of religions or nationalities you don't happen to like."

"And on top of that, you and Mr. Carroll are incapable of seeing religion as anything but ideology, because the two of you are so rigidly ideological that you can see nothing else."
That, as far as I am concerned, is using our non-belief to undermine our criticisms.
It is as unacceptable as your suggesting it permissible to bury dead babies in your septic tank - which you have yet to respond to.
"Your opinions, sir, are not valid because you continually fail to support them with logic and evidence"
This is patently untrue - I have persistently provided masses evidence in the form of articles, from contemporary statements by doctors and witnesses from the first half of the twentieth century, to links to discussion from today's newspapers - mainly The Irish Times.
I have attempted to be even-handed by putting the 'septic tank' ssue to rest, but I have shown what is beig daily reported here and the effect it is having on the church in Ireland.
That is my "failure to support my arguments with logic or evidence".
You, on the other hand, have attempted to absolve the church from its sins by suggesting it all happened in the dim and distant past and most of the perpetrators are now dead.
The extent of my "attack on the church" is that, by their behaviour, they have proven beyond doubt that they are not fit to be allowed to to interfere in matters political, sexual or medical - mountains of evidence for all of these.
This has been openly under discussion in Ireland for some time now - nothing to do with an attack on religion - just an attempt to see that this can never happen again.
Your lack of response on all of this is an ongoing dishonesty, and it damaging to you as an individual and to your religion.
Yu accuse me of lack of logic - please specify instead of alluding.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 03:50 AM

Thank you for making my point, Mr. Carroll (I use formal address to match your condescendingly righteous tone).

Allow me to quote you quoting me: "Of course all such atrocities are wrong, no matter who commits them. All of them must be studied and responded to, not just those committed by people of religions or nationalities you don't happen to like."

And that's the truth.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 03:59 AM

Regarding the Holocaust, the Germans were assiduous in their record-keeping. The 'Final Solution' was monitored to ensure the 'new methods' of genocide were as effective as possible. In fact, if a death camp was not delivering enough death according to 'the figures', military inspectors arrived, the Kommandant was sent packing, and a new one installed, with fresh ideas of a better killing system. Records are available from these sources. It would seem also that, in spite of the enormous and horrifying death toll, there were survivors of the 300 plus extermination camps, and surely their testimonies count for something? The young man who killed at the age of 20 is still alive. His girlfriend is not. If the Courts deem one is of adult age and guilty, one must pay the price for one's deeds. Anything less would be an insult to the deceased's family. He is fortunate not to have paid the ultimate penalty for killing someone. I assume a death sentence didn't pertain in his State.
The 'common denominator' in all this punishment/time business is the retribution on behalf of the victims and their families. There's far too much concern for the perpetrators and not nearly enough for the sufferers. An old man who killed is still a killer. An ageing entertainer who once abused children is still a paedophile. Old crimes are still crimes. And punishment should IMO still be meted out.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 04:16 AM

That's certainly a valid point, Eliza. I think though, that there is no right or wrong answer here - it's strictly a matter of widely differing opinions. It's up to those with responsibility to achieve a balance that does its best to satisfy differing interests.

I certainly sympathize with the victims, but I just can't see how it does any good to prosecute a 90-yr-old for crimes he committed when he was twenty. And I think that sometimes, those who scream loudest demanding retribution, are the ones who have the least interest in the victim. Retribution does little to heal an injury. I think there is good reason to explore the principles of restorative justice, which explore the possibility of requiring the offender to work to make the victim whole again.

And to my mind, a twenty-year-old does not have the maturity of judgment that one has at thirty, and that should be a mitigating factor.

Q asks how these references to the Holocaust are relevant. Although the Tuam home closed in 1961, the worst abuses too place in the 1930s and 1940s, about the same time as the crimes of the Holocaust.

I will continue to think that 50-year-old crimes are a matter for sociologists and historians, not for prosecutors. It's too late for any effective or reasonable punishment, but there are still many lessons to be learned from such crimes that have a wide effect. I think a fifty-year statute of limitations is reasonable for any crime, no matter how serious - and even that is too long to allow for a truly fair trial.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 04:42 AM

Sorry - what's your point Joe (sorry -refuse to stoop to your childish sulky level - it certainly doesn't in any way respond to a single point I've made.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 04:47 AM

And to let Mr. Carroll finally get to rest, let me say that I agree that it would be totally wrong to bury anyone in a container that had been used as a septic tank. I'm truly sorry if he misunderstood me.

But a concrete vault, is a concrete vault. Such vaults can be used for many things - bomb shelters, burial places, vaults for storing and preserving things, and septic tanks.

Could it be, Mr. Carroll, that in your vast experience, you have never seen a concrete septic tank? It looks just like a concrete burial vault,, and it usually has no label on it specifying what it is to be used for. It doesn't become a septic tank until the plumbing is added.

What's my point, Jim? Let me repeat: I will continue to think that 50-year-old crimes are a matter for sociologists and historians, not for prosecutors. It's too late for any effective or reasonable punishment, but there are still many lessons to be learned from such crimes that have a wide effect. I think a fifty-year statute of limitations is reasonable for any crime, no matter how serious - and even that is too long to allow for a truly fair trial.

And while I know that the Ryan Report focused primarily on the industrial schools, it also covered the Magdalene Laundries and the mother-and-baby homes. And the mother-and-baby homes were covered in the Philomena book and movie, and the Magdalene Laundries in Magdalene Sisters. That makes all this stuff about the Tuam home a recycled scandal - one based on a distorted story that kept getting more and more twisted until it became an international outcry about babies being dumped in a septic tank.
No doubt that conditions in these institutions were bad, but the outrage about this Tuam thing is simply yet another recycling of a story that has been known for a long, long time. It's time to stop the screaming and the self-righteous and the blanket declarations. It's time to study this whole system of institutions and abuse, and learn the lessons they have to teach us.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 05:07 AM

""I think there is good reason to explore the principles of restorative justice, requiring the offender explore the possibility of requiring the offender to work to make the victim whole again.""

That is exactly where I suggested (in earlier discussions) where the RC church failed with the priest sex abuse cases, Joe. Because of that failure, nd frustration from the victims, they paid faced a significent financial cost.

I seem to recall you "sluffed off" this suggestion (related to the RC failures to show compassion for healing the victims)( when I raised it, Joe. My recollection, is you were focused on bitterness that members of the church had to pay the financial costs for crimes, which took money from other initiatives.

While the direct offenders were the priests, the RC organization (and its members) also bore responsibility fir the offences as an enabler. There was no interest shown in the RC church to explore opportunities to make the victims whole again.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:37 AM

"Could it be, Mr. Carroll, that in your vast experience, you have never seen a concrete septic tank? "
We have a very fine one of our own - it's where we dispose of our shit - not unwanted babies
Tell me - is your consecrated - I believe that's an issue with Catholics?
" will continue to think that 50-year-old crimes are a matter for sociologists and historians,"
Who ever mentioned prosecutors other than yourself?
What is an issue with me is that those who facilitated those crimes, and those who continue to hide evidence of them are not fit to hold positions they have in the past.
Putting these crimes on 'the long finger' and making them 'history' has become an excuse for them.
You are lying when you claim I am making 'self-righteous declarations' - I am not, nor do go in for that sort of thing.
I have presented as fairly as I can what is happening here at present - which akes the whole of Ireland "self-righteous declarers".
You have yet to address one aspect of these long-term criminal activities other than to write them of as an unfortunate part of history.
Never again - that is my only declaration.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 10:19 AM

"When things have happened in the past, I think we need to stop and question what good will be done by opening those wounds all over again. I think twenty years is a good number. If it happened more than twenty years ago, there's little you can do to fix it, so maybe it's time to drop it." (5 June.)

"I will continue to think that 50-year-old crimes are a matter for sociologists and historians, not for prosecutors. It's too late for any effective or reasonable punishment, but there are still many lessons to be learned from such crimes that have a wide effect. I think a fifty-year statute of limitations is reasonable for any crime, no matter how serious - and even that is too long to allow for a truly fair trial." (8 Jul.)

Joe, I take some comfort from the fact you have extended your statute of limitations from 20yrs to 50 yrs. However I do not believe that just because those who commit certain horrendous crimes have avoided the law that there should ever come the day when they can relax and stop looking over their shoulder. In this way, at least they will have served a 'sentence' of sorts.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 01:27 PM

That "concrete septic tank" keeps showing up in posts. There was none.

A slab the size "of a coffee table" covered the remains of a number of small children. This has been reported in the Irish Times, and was mentioned earlier in this thread. This conjectorily was the location of a shaft burial vault.

Maps show the area of the burials as a septic or leach field in the days when the establishment was a workhouse. The operation had ceased when the buildings and grounds passed to the nuns.

Catherine Corless, the historian who broke the story (see Irish Times, June 7, 2004), concluded that many of the 796 children had been buried in an unofficial graveyard at the rear of the home. The grassy space has been tended for decades by local people, and a small grotto was put up in one corner. (Bold type is mine).

In long decades past, the area was a waste disposal area.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 05:22 PM

Rog, you question my thinking on statutes of limitations. Please remember that I'm thinking out loud here, not enacting legislation. Yes, I think that for most crimes, a twenty-year statute of limitations would be appropriate. Murder is an obvious exception, as is rape. In the period that the Tuam home existed, 1925-1961, we have records that show that eight babies died of malnutrition - and we don't know the circumstances. In fact, there's a lot that we don't know about Tuam and the other institutions, and it is essential that we know the facts and study them impartially before we come to any conclusions.

There are those who want to blame the entire thing on the Church, and want to hold the Vatican responsible for it all. Others blame local churchmen and nuns. Others might be willing to admit that local and national governments of Ireland must bear a good part of the blame. I think that in honesty, Irish society and all of Western society must bear a significant portion of the blame, because these institutions carried out what seems to have been the will of the people. That sort of thinking is diminishing now, but Western society has long condemned unwed mothers as "bad girls," while holding the fathers blameless. The Church was complicit in this and is certainly not blameless, but this has been the thinking of all of society - not something imposed on society by churches.

But back to statutes of limitations. As I said above, my personal feeling is that prosecuting a crime after 20 years doesn't do much good; and I think that society is wasting its resources if it puts extraordinary effort into resolving crimes that are more than twenty years old. But yes, there are crimes like murder and rape that cause such outrage and such trauma that twenty years isn't long enough. For such crimes, I think we should stop attempts at prosecution at fifty years, because I can't imagine being able to conduct a fair trial after more than fifty years. People bring up the fact that the Germans kept meticulous records during the Holocaust that could be used as evidence, but then I ask why weren't those meticulous records used in prosecution fifty years ago. So, now that the Holocaust is almost seventy years ago, I think it's time to stop trying to prosecute ninety-year-olds for crimes they committed at the age of twenty.

Admittedly, this discussion of statutes of limitations and the Holocaust and such is a sideline, but there are parallels. As I have said before, the conditions in the church-run institutions in Ireland in the first half of the twentieth century were indeed deplorable. I agree wholeheartedly with Jim Carroll's "never again" declaration. I'm also pleased to see that Jim Carroll admits that prosecution is not the appropriate response to the way these institutions were operated half a century ago.

And yet, we have here a case where the Tuam story created an international outrage against an order of nuns and the Catholic Church for murdering* 800 babies and dumping their bodies into a septic tank. The nuns and the church were prosecuted in the press, and the call for execution has been loud and clear. Except for the fact that it appears the bodies were buried in soil, not dumped in a septic tank. And the babies died at a rate of about twenty per year, and of natural causes.

So much speculation has clouded the issue of these institutions, that it is becoming more and more difficult to sort out the truth. The Philomena movie and other accounts are very helpful, but we must also take note that such movies have modified information to make it work as a movie. We have a lot to learn from this issue, but we can learn only if we make an honest and thorough exploration of all the facts of the matter. We can't learn if we are shrouded in speculation and rash generalizations.

Ed T brings up an issue: That (restorative justice) is exactly where I suggested (in earlier discussions) where the RC church failed with the priest sex abuse cases, Joe. Because of that failure, and frustration from the victims, they paid faced a significant financial cost. That's a matter worthy of discussion, Ed, and I agree with you to a great extent. I guess I'd better cut the grass before I post an answer. Let's talk about that later.

-Joe-


*Jim Carroll will now rush to the dais and huffily insist that he never accused anyone at Tuam of murder, so let me agree that's true. Jim did not make such an accusation. But Musket termed the 800 deaths at Tuam as murder, and so did some others here and many others in the press. And yes, no doubt that someone will attack me for using 800 as a number instead of 796, but so be it. All we really know about Tuam is that Catherine Corless found 796 death certificates for people who died at the Tuam home, and that various natural causes were listed as the cause of death. That's a good starting point, and it's clear that more facts are available - but most of what we've read is sheer speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 05:31 PM

Not meaning to call you out, Joe, just seems like an oddly different standard, if my RC church isdues recollection is correct.

There's grass in California (I suspect you refer to the non-medicinal type)?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:49 PM

Engineers have found two anomalies at the site, using ground penetrating radar. One is a box or culvert-like structure about 5m by 5m, that is most likely man-made, according to engineers examining the site.
Another area. 12 by 4 mters, is anomalous in that the area is more dense than the covering or adjacent soil.
The article shows maps and sections.
The Children's Home Graveyard Committee and Caherine Corless cooperated in the project.

It is suggested that slit trenches are the next step.

It has been suggested that the children are not in the ground, but Catherine Corless says "I still believe that they are in that ground."

Daily Mail, 8 June 2014, "We need to dig babies graves':....."
Alison O'Reilley and Neil Michael
www.dailymail.co.uk

A lot remains to be learned about the site and the burials. One family has made a formal exhumation request.

The anomalies found may belong to the age of the workhouse, or they may be later; only digging will answer that question.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:59 PM

prosecuting a crime after 20 years doesn't do much good

For fucksake, these crimes are NOT 20 years old, they are ongoing. The Church's sleazebag hierarchy has been lying to protect the killers all the way up to the present day. They are STILL criminally withholding information to cover their arses.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:56 PM

I don't really know if I could say I have grass in my lawn, Ed. I do have a huge crop of plantain that was growing pretty high, though - and I guess the brown stuff underneath it could be called grass if you were really generous about it.....Good thing my garden tractor has a cupholder so I could have something cold to keep me company.

So, the child molestation and the coverup by bishops and the amounts of reparation paid.....it's a very complex and interesting issue.

I live in the Diocese of Sacramento, California. From 1979-1993, during the worst of the child molestation crisis, we had an exemplary bishop, Francis Quinn. He instituted what I thought was a very good policy for dealing with child molestation complaints. Victims of major offenses were offered a settlement of $40,000, which was about half the cost of a decent house in this area at the time. Victims of less serious offenses were offered $25,000, like the adult woman who was "groped" by a priest who thought she was in love with her. These settlements were given for all reasonably credible offenses, with no need for a trial. Victims were also offered counseling at diocesan expense. I think it was 1986 when insurance companies refused to cover dioceses for child molestation claims. After whatever date that was, the dioceses had to pay the claims, and our diocese paid every reasonable claim without hesitation. I don't know if there were nondisclosure agreements connected to the settlements, but those are common in out-of-court settlements because they help keep settlements from escalating. I suppose that nondisclosure can also be understood as keeping the story from the press and maybe (or maybe not) from the police, but the primary purpose is to prevent a "run on the bank."

If you look under Sacramento at bishop-accountability.org, you will see that the Sacramento Diocese has a relatively short list of offenders, and that all of the cases were handled openly. So.....we thought our diocese did the right thing. And many U.S. dioceses had done the right thing. This problem of child molestation first came to light in the 1960s - it was not a new thing. Bishops spent millions on psychological testing of seminarians, and on treatment facilities that psychiatrists guaranteed would cure priests.

But everything changed in 2002. All hell broke loose, and it came to light that bishops in a number of dioceses in the United States had covered up incidents and moved priests instead of firing them and referring them to prosecution. There was a national outrage, and rightly so. California and many other states lifted statutes of limitation on child molestation claims, and the price of settlements went up and up. By the time things settled down, the rate of compensation was $1 million, and all the victims in my diocese who had already been compensated years ago, received an additional million dollars. The same thing happened all over the U.S. There were a number of dioceses that had callously done their best to evade responsibility, and their coverups caused a scandal that hurt those dioceses who had done the right thing from the start. And bishops and management personnel in some of those offending dioceses should be in jail for what they did. It should be noted though, that in 2002 the U.S. bishops set forth a number of guidelines meant to prevent molestation of children; and from my experience in security matters, I and say I think they're very good guidelines. No preventive measures are perfect, but these are quite good. Only one bishop failed to sign onto the agreement to adopt these measures, and he's now retired.

But please remember that the crime of child molestation was committed by individuals, not by the church. As the employer of these individuals, of course the church must bear financial responsibility. I'm sure some will say I'm a horrible person for saying so, but a million dollars is far more generous than the rate of liability compensation that you'll find for malpractice in most situations in the U.S. - and a million dollars, or even fifty million dollars, will not do a thing to heal the harm done by a child molester. Catholics were sincerely outraged by the harm and the betrayal done by some of their priests, compounded by some of their bishops. And yes, there were some Catholics who had a hard time believing accusations levelled against priests they had known and loved for years. Looking down the list of California and Wisconsin priests accused of offenses, I can see a number of friends I just can't believe would do such a thing - but the evidence is there, so I have to believe it.

We still haven't heard the full story. No bishop has stepped forward to explain how and why these coverups happened, and why accused priests were transferred instead of being suspended and referred to law enforcement authorities. I suppose the trouble is, that the hysteria level is so high that honest discussion is impossible. If a bishop dared to open his mouth, he would be inundated with million-dollar damage claims.

And the trouble with those million-dollar claims is that typically, lawyers collect half of the awards in fees, even if the lawyer has done nothing more than file a claim form. Entire law firms in the U.S. deal in nothing but Catholic child molestation claims. It's big business, and it has no interest in healing the people who were harmed by the molesters. Victims of crimes are healed by quiet compassion and counseling and just compensation, and just punishment for offenders - not by huge settlements and big headlines.

So, yeah, I'm opening myself to all sorts of outrage by saying that million-dollar settlements are excessive. And it could well be that the outrageous conduct of a few callous bishops is a large part of the reason for those million-dollar settlements. What's happening now is that a number of dioceses are filing for bankruptcy, leaving some victims with huge settlements and some with nothing - and continuing to drain the contributions of parishioners who had nothing to do with this wrongdoing.

There are no easy answers, and so much of it has to do with blame and retribution and self-righteous outrage that has nothing to do with healing the victims and preventing future crimes. I'm sure this statement gives the screamers plenty to scream about, but that's what I think.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:29 PM

Getting back to the statement: "I think there is good reason to explore the principles of restorative justice, requiring the offender explore the possibility of requiring the offender to work to make the victim whole again.""

What you mention is primarily early financial payments by your local, which I suspect was not the norm, Joe, in the USA or elsewhere. The coverup denials, and movement of priests seem to be widespread, international in scope, if you may. It seems odd that this would have occured so broadly, without some form communication or coordination from the top, or between the bishops.

If you listen to what many victims state, it is frustration that their plight was ignored by the church, which they valued and trusted. Rather than genuinely working with compassion to make them whole again, they were marginalized and vilified by the church organization. I suspect if genuine outreach efforts were made to help these people deal with the crimes, and root out the evil (which is part of the victims healing) *, vastly fewer and lower punitive cases and amounts would have evolved from the great bitterness. However, I note that millions was spent on the criminal priests who broke the trust...in efforts to heal, cure and make them whole again. Where did those millions come from, also the pockets of parishoners, I suspect.

what puzzles me in your early statement (I highlighted above) , which led me to my questions is what I see as a double standard....one for most victims, and another for victims of those acting within the RC church organization.

Can't you see why such actions would be a serious blight on the church, Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:46 AM

Maybe I'm not completely understanding what you're saying about a double standard, Ed. I'm not able to find data on early responses by dioceses to sex molestation by priests. I'm guessing that if insurance companies refused to insure dioceses against such claims as early as 1986, that many dioceses must have had a system of paying damages and offering counseling that was similar to mine. It's been my belief that most dioceses had such a system set up, but I have direct knowledge of such systems only in Sacramento and Milwaukee, the two dioceses where I worked for many years as both volunteer and employee. The 2004 John Jay Report says that 74 percent of U.S. Catholic dioceses had made payment for victim treatment. I'm sure that some of those dioceses didn't pay much; and the fact that 26 percent of dioceses paid nothing, is indeed deplorable. The 200-page PDF of the John Jay Report is available here (click). Information on treatment and compensation of victims begins on page 103.

Even in the 1960s, when I was a seminarian in Milwaukee, the archdiocese had a serious concern about sexual abuse by priests. The screening process we went through in college was lengthy and intensive.

It's the callous responses that get covered in the press, so one can easily get the impression that the "dark side" is the predominant side. I think that there were many dioceses that showed a genuine concern about sexual abuse by priests, but you don't hear about those dioceses. But it's clear from the John Jay report that 26 percent of dioceses made no attempt to pay for treatment of victims of sex abuse by priests - and that's deplorable.

The Wikipedia article on Catholic sex abuse cases has a lot of good information, but not the historical detail I'd like to see. The John Jay Report gives a lot of good information - and the executive summary at the beginning is a reasonable amount of reading that will give a good overview.

For most of my life, I have subscribed to the Jesuit America Magazine, and the independent National Catholic Reporter. I have also occasionally subscribed to the independent Commonweal Magazine. To my mind, these are the three magazines that thinking American Catholics read - my parents subscribed to the Jesuit America Magazine when I was a kid, and I began subscribing to National Catholic Reporter when I was in college. All three have been highly critical of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church for many, many years - and I think their coverage of this issue has been brutally honest. Since America is owned by a religious order, Rome was able to force the removal of one editor, Fr. Tom Reese, but America soon bounced back with even more forceful coverage. Of the three, I'd say that America is the most popular. I think most U.S. priests have ready access to it. I would say that the general attitude of these publications toward the sex abuse crisis has been "agonized soul-searching." These three publications never seem to cover up anything, and they never seem afraid to ask any question. They have always acknowledged sex abuse as a serious problem in the Catholic Church. Other Catholic publications have occasionally made some mention of the sex abuse crisis, but it's rare that they discuss the matter seriously. And then there are a few that either deny the abuse completely, or blame it all on heretical liberals.

I think I have a fairly balanced perspective on the sexual abuse crisis in the U.S. I've studied it quite closely since the 1960s. But I have a friend, Esther, a tough old nun in her eighties, who isn't so sure I have it straight. One time she said, "Joe, you don't know the half of it. We told them (the diocese) years and years ago, and they just didn't listen." Esther is one of the most honest and insightful people I know. If she has questions, then I have to keep asking questions.

-Joe-

---

One other thing - here's a 2004 article for Hearst newspapers by Thomas G. Plante, one of the foremost experts on the U.S. Catholic sex abuse crisis: http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/openforum/article/Sexual-abuse-by-Catholic-priests-Next-steps-2785669.php. An excerpt:

The much anticipated document from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York stated that 4,392 priests (4 percent of the U.S. total) sexually victimized 10,667 children during the past 52 years. The report noted that 81 percent of the victims were boys, with two-thirds being teenagers. Most of the abuse occurred in the 1970s (70 percent of the offending priests were ordained on or before 1970), with significant declines by the 1980s and 1990s. In a separate report also commissioned by American Catholic bishops, the National Review Board for the Protection of Children and Young People, composed of lay persons, chastised the bishops for how they dealt with child-abuse allegations over the years.

How do we put these numbers in perspective? Tragically, the best available data from both the federal government and a number of independent researchers suggest that sexual victimization of children is neither rare nor confined to the Catholic Church. In fact, about 20 percent of American women and 15 percent of American men report that they were victims of child sexual abuse, with about 80 percent reporting that the abuse was perpetrated by a family member. Sexual abuse by other groups of men who have regular unsupervised contact with and power over children appears to occur at levels similar to those associated with priests. About 5 percent of school teachers, for instance, have sexually victimized a student; 15 percent of Americans report being the target of sexual misconduct by a teacher while in primary or secondary school. Apparently, other groups also need to conduct their own John Jay study.

We naturally expect better behavior from religious leaders such as priests than from other men, however. Furthermore, we expect that church officials would deal with sexual abuse allegations with concern, responsibility and stellar ethics. Tragically, we have come to realize that some priests and bishops behaved very badly.

The frequent recent reminders of the clergy sexual abuse problem in the American Catholic Church can't feel very good for anyone. Victims and their families are often retraumatized and thwarted in their attempts to heal and move on with their lives. The 96 percent of priests who have not abused children as well as average Catholics in the pews once again feel saddened, depressed and angry. They must find ways to make sense of such horrific behavior among their clergy as well as defend their faith tradition from frequent attacks, ridicule and jokes.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:12 AM

"Jim Carroll will now rush to the dais and huffily insist that he never accused anyone at Tuam of murder"
You would make your case far better if, instead of claiming what I would "huffily" do, you directly answered some of the points made and not surround yourself with an army of straw men to slay.
The child molestations wre acts of individuals - nobody has claimed the church held rituals in which children were raped.
Those crimes were widely known about by other members of the clergy, who either ignored them and treated as eccentricities, or passed them on to a higher authority, who, by and large did nothing about them until thet got 'out of hand'.
The perpetrator would then be moved on to another parish, where he was allowed to continue his abusive behaviour.
If that got out of hand, he was sent abroad, often to Africa - out of sight.
This makes the church an accomplice to the crimes.
Since all this has come to light, the church has continually refused to co-operate with investigations; Mea Maxima Culpa, involving the abuse of deaf children, showed that Bishops refused to co-operate at the time, allowing the abuses to continue, and since then, has dragged its feet in allowing access to information which would bring all the facts into the open - this includes a massive amount of documentation held by the Vatican an refused access to.
These are criminal acts, and had they been carried out by education or hospital authorities, all those concerned would have long bee prosecuted and punished under the law - they certainly would never have been allowed to continue to hold positions of responsibility in society.
The contempt that officers of the church held ordinary people in has been a running theme in all of this.
When the parents of Smythe, the most prolific of the abusers, reported his abuses to the Bishop, they were told to go home and pray for the souls of their children - Smythe was allowed to continue.
Others were bullied into silence, or told that their children were liars - grotesque monsters.
Right up to the present day the Magdalene Nuns have shown no contrition, describing their victims as the "sweepings of the street" - they have refused point blank to pay a penny towards the pitiful compensation being paid out , leaving the taxpayers to foot the bill.
In many cases, the victims have been treated as criminals; a couple of years ago, one victim who turned up to church to protest at the inviting of a Bishop who actively covered up abusers, was booed and driven out of the church by the priest and congregation (we have our share of red-necks).
The Catholic church is rapidly earning the contempt of the people of Ireland, not just because of past behaviour, but by continuing contempt for the people of whom they once held sway.
They have lost the respect of the nation, and while you continue to prevaricate, you will have done the same here Joe (I refuse to lower myself to your appallingly 'surnames-only' behaviour grow up).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:40 AM

I suppose pointing out that there was no septic tank is like pointing out a "mind your head" sign at the entrance to gas chambers...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:13 AM

the babies died at a rate of about twenty per year, and of natural causes.

A death rate that high is NOT natural. It implies lethal neglect. Anybody responsible in a secular institution would be facing criminal proceedings - those nuns killed far more children than any 19th century baby farmer. Instead, what's happened is that their accomplices in the Church hierarchy have conspired to keep them beyond the reach of the law.

If you're right, their superiors were not always the local Church organization and they were directly accountable to the Pope. Fine, extradite Ratzinger for perverting the course of justice. He was the main man in charge in charge while his senile fascist boss was gibbering his way into the same mental state as his pal Ronnie Reagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:14 AM

This is rather interesting to watch. There almost seems to be a competition between Musket and Jim Carroll, to determine which one can be more huffily Morally Superior than the other....

There are real issues to be explored here, and they need to be explored honestly. Unfortunately, Mr. Musket and Mr. Carroll are too busy being Morally Superior to actually spend honest time exploring the issues realistically.

They're striving so hard to claim the same Moral Superiority they accuse church people of claiming.

Maybe they should get together with the righteous Church Ladies and have tea.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:18 AM

Jack Campin says: He was the main man in charge in charge while his senile fascist boss was gibbering his way into the same mental state as his pal Ronnie Reagan.

Well, Jack, you're right about John Paul II and Ronnie Reagan....and Maggie Thatcher seemed to be of the same, dottering ilk.

But Ratzinger bucked the curia and was the first in the Vatican to take action against child abuse.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:30 AM

" Musket and Jim Carroll, to determine which one can be more huffily Morally Superior than the other...."
Please don't leave yourself out of all this Joe - you are doing sterling work in avoiding every single point being made.
It really doesn't say a great deal for your honesty and sincerity.
Answer the facts being presented rather than taking snideswipes at those presenting them
Are they true or are they not important enough for you to bother with?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:52 AM

I've answered the facts as best and as honestly I can, Jim - and I have to say that the facts do not make the Catholic Church look good. But in the end, it makes Catholics look like fallible humans, and and you and Musket and your ilk do not seem to be able to understand or tolerate the fallibility of humanity. Take note of what I've posted in the Hitchcock thread.

The reality of life isn't pretty. If you expect humans to be perfect, you will be continually disappointed. If you expect humans to be human, you will be continually surprised...and perhaps inspired.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 05:24 AM

But, Joe, you seem to me evading the point that this "fallibility" had consequences which, in any other context, would almost certainly have led these "fallible" people to have to face some consequences: internal disciplinary action other than merely being posted elsewhere to get on with it somewhere else; even perhaps criminal charges for neglect:- which consequences were fudged by those in authority or otherwise evaded by the "fallible"; and this, it appears to those outside the charmed circle, because things done in a context of "sincerely held faith" are for some reason to be regarded as exceptions to the general rules governing normal social intercourse.

I am afraid the rest of us just don't buy it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 05:39 AM

Mike, the fallible people who created the harsh conditions at Tuam (which closed in 1961 and was at its worst in the 1940s)....they're dead, or at least most of them are. The ones still living were too young at the time to have much say-so. If they were alive, then I'd say that they should be prosecuted if it can be proved that they committed crimes. I have never said that "sincerely held faith" is any excuse for criminal behavior, and it would be wrong for you or anybody to imply that I would say such a thing. If anything, that would add to the culpability of the miscreant, because it would make him/her also a hypocrite. But 1961 was a long, long time ago (53 years, to be exact) - and so far, there has been no attempt to collect the evidence needed to get an accurate view of what truly happened at Tuam.

Go ahead. Prosecute those dead people and convict them, and then dance on their graves or whatever else it is you want to do.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 08:21 AM

"Maybe I'm not completely understanding what you're saying about a double standard, Ed. (T)."

My observation, Joe is you stated that you feel there is good reason to explore the principles of restorative justice, requiring the offender requiring the offender to work to make the victim whole again.

Would that not be especially important for the RC church organization (the offender) to show (to have shown) leadership in that area, a Christian focused organization?

While you note a few local examples of local initiatives of early financial compensation (not the issue) , there seems to be no evidence that there was any broad based initiative to "work with the victims of RC sex abuse to make them whole again". I believe the testimony of many victims and court and newspaper reports indicate the opposite occured, in many, if not most, cases. However, significant resources were focused on attempts to "hide" the crimes, and make the offenders (aka priests) "whole again".

So, if your statement represents your views related to most offenders, why would it differ forvthe RC church organization? You seem to focus on the financial settlements, many court imposed - IMO, designed to punish the church, to compensate those abused and mostly ignored, and to send a message to all organizations...not to make the victims whole again.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 09:20 AM

Sorry Joe, but it has never been about the fallibility of human beings - I think Mike has covered that pretty well.
It is about the role of the hierarchy of the Church and whether it makes them a suitable body to continue to occupy the position that they have in the past and are fighting to retain.
Until you get around to addressing that you will not even have touched on the problem.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 01:06 PM

actually some have claimed ritualistic abuse...which is terrifying. The priest who murdered the nun and was just buried was alleged to have been involved in this but hopefully not with children. Other cases are alleged as well. I think more will come out with the investigation now ordered for England.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:37 PM

The Tuam Bon Secours home is no longer discussed.

The Children's Minister, Charlie Flanigan, promised a preliminary report in a month (Now 5 weeks since that statement.)

The location of the site where the majority of the 796 bodies are buried is being sought. There are no burial records for the children.
Only the 20 or so bodies in the burial vault have been found.

Catherine Corless does not want the site to be excavated; she is "certain" that the bodies are there.

No "new" news since the first week in June.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:51 PM

"Go ahead. Prosecute those dead people and convict them"
Nor is it about prosecuting dead people - another straw man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:19 PM

"
Would that not be especially important for the RC church organization (the offender) to show (to have shown) leadership in that area, a Christian focused organization?"

No. the Catholic Church was not "the offender"

A large number of adult males who happen to work for the Catholic Church and abused mainly adolescent boys were the "offenders"

The Catholic Church may have been guilty of a cover up, but was not guilty of homosexual assault.

Clean up the priesthood, employ married priests with children, problem solved.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:02 PM

"No. the Catholic Church was not "the offender""
The Catholic church was and remains an accomplice to those crimes.
"Clean up the priesthood, employ married priests with children, problem solved."
Once again you choose to use this as an attack on homosexuals.
Married men are just as likely to be pedophiles and rapists as are homosexual men - Problem certainly not solved by persecuting man whose natural sexual tendencies are not your own.
Disgusting bigotry against a sexual tendency which is both legal and natural.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:21 PM

So, Joe, is it fair to say that the RC church organization has no responsibility for the actions of priests in its employ (they do get paid)?

If so, why would this be different from other large organizations, like GM, for example. Would GM get away with saying its not responsible for the actions of those making its cars, that any defects would be the employees, or shift managers issues to deal with? If GM managers knew about this, and did not take corrective action, should they still be able to deflect any responsibility for resulting injuries?

It is clear that the persons (employees) in positions of authority within the RC church knew about the abuse, and did not take appropriate and reasonable action to halt it, or stopping its spread- including reporting the crimes to authorities. This made them enablers.

As you have stated in the past, Joe, sexual crimes against minors (male and female) under their care has occured in many organizations. Perversion exists with married folks, as well as with those not married. There is clearly no simple solution, but many measures needed to rectify the situation. However, the big wack in the RC pocketbook, likely got the attention of someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 12:16 AM

I think you're not reading me carefully enough, Ed. I said above, "As the employer of these individuals [priests], of course the church must bear financial responsibility." I also stated that in the U.S., 74 percent of dioceses provided at least some treatment for victims of child molestation by priests. That leaves 26 percent who did not provide treatment as of 2004, and I think that's terrible. The 2002 guidelines issued in the U.S. require dioceses to provide treatment, so I hope the compliance rate is now closer to 100 percent.

I think that in many places in the U.S. Catholic Church, the bishops listened to their lawyers above everything else. Not only in the child molestation scandal, but also in other matters, all too often bishops listened to their legal and financial advisors instead of doing what was right and compassionate. That has been a great source of frustration and disillusion to many of us in leadership positions in the Catholic Church. I think the bishops are doing better now, but I'm not convinced they've turned around completely.

Q, you say, "Only the 20 or so bodies in the burial vault have been found." Are you referring to the 1975 discovery of bones by ten-year-old boys, or has the vault been rediscovered in the last few weeks?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 12:42 AM

Those 20 bodies are those found by the boys. It looks like they were in a burial vault.
No other bodies have been found. Excavation is needed to find the other bodies (if, indeed, they were buried at that site!).

The ground-penetrating radar found a 12 x 4 meter site with "denser soil," but just what this is can only be determined by excavation. Also a culvert-like reflection, again its meaning not known.

One family has applied for exhumation. There is no indication as to when this or other excavation might take place.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:56 AM

"Clean up the priesthood, employ married priests with children, problem solved."
Can I follow this disgusting piece of bigotry up now I have a little more time in the middle of the week of the Willie Clancy Summer School.
I seldom attend church; if I do it is exclusively for funerals of neighbours and friends.
One aspect of modernisation I have noticed lately is that the young people who service the masses nowadays have been girls - the last one a month ago was carried out entirely of young altar-girls, and the choir was entirely female.
The atmosphere has become such that I got to wondering whether they were as much at risk as boys have been in the past.
These incidents have never been about the sexual orientation of the offending clergy, rather the prevailing situation and the power wielded by those with influence.
Rape has always been been rife within our prison systems, not because the prisoners are overwhelmingly homosexuals, but a simple case of of what is on hand within the system (pun not intended).
Mixed-sex prisons - now there's a thought!
Please do not let this discussion be used for another of Ake's attacks on homosexuals - I certainly hope that homosexuals are not used as scapegoats when Ireland finally gets around to sorting out the question of church power, which I believe is the root of many of these problems.
I also hope that finance does not become a major issue in these discussions - this affair has never been a matter of compensating the victims, though that is an aspect that has to be dealt with, where possible and applicable.
It must be in recognising the immeasurable damage that has been done to countless generations of children and assuring that it can never happen again, however that is achieved.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:15 AM

Joe, the figure 76 percent in tge USA seems suspect to me, what is the source?
What precisely does "some treatment" mean? If accurate, how does it compare with other countries?

Good points Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:53 AM

Joe O, While not dealing with tge issue we were discussing, I found this article interesting:


Child sexual abuse and the churches: A story of moral failure? 

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 09:24 AM

Just some linked resources from international bodies relalated to clerical child abuse.


Resouces 

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 12:59 PM

I think the fear of women increasing their roles is then all the men will leave...and I think it is true that the proportions would swing wildly. But it would sort itself out.

And never ever ever allow any children, boys or girls, or even teens, in the sacristy..even if they say other witnesses will be there. They can put on their altar clothes outside in the main part of the church.

NEVER EVER HAVE AN ALTAR BOY OR GIRL IN A SACRISTY. Too many awful things have gone on and it is a privilege we have lost, I think forever. I want to scream when I see them come out. And is dressing them up appealing to the creepy part of some priests' psyches? I don't know but read up on what Pope John Paul I said about paraphelia..attachment to the vestments etc. Which I must say explains a lot. And all of this has to be discussed in public, no matter how icky it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:34 PM

Infant mortality in Ireland
Deaths/1000 births
1930    1950    1959
70      50      29

The above figures are approximate (from Fig. 1) Jour. Health Economics, Jan. 2011; Irish Life Tables and central Statistics Office.

The Tuam Bon Secours Nuns operated he home from 1926-1961.
There were 200 infants/children at the home in 1926 when they took charge.
There are 796 child death certificates for the entire period, or 22/year.
We do not know the condition of children admitted to the home, number of births at the home, number of children at the home/year or any other statistics.
All records were given to the government; none has been made public.

We know only that approx. 20 bodies were found in a burial shaft in 1975; none recovered since from the area (that was used as a septic field when the institution was a workhouse).

We do not know for certain how many bodies are at the site. Catherine Corless, who reported on the home and obtained copies of 796 death certificates, is "certain" that they are buried there.

Some interesting anomalies have been found by ground-penetrating radar, but nothing to indicate definitely that burials are there.

There are no burial records apparently.

The whole story became conflated and fictionized.

This thread has become an attack and defense of the Catholic Church and its hierarchy; with attacks on the Nuns for what seems the tenor of the times that they had the Home.

It would take a careful reader to sort out the few facts about the Home from the fantasy in most posts.

No new information has developed since June 14 in the Irish Press.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 04:25 PM

Hi, Ed- Here's what I said above:

The 2004 John Jay Report says that 74 percent of U.S. Catholic dioceses had made payment for victim treatment. I'm sure that some of those dioceses didn't pay much; and the fact that 26 percent of dioceses paid nothing, is indeed deplorable. The 200-page PDF of the John Jay Report is available here (click). Information on treatment and compensation of victims begins on page 103.

In 2002, the bishops of the U.S. commissioned the John Jay College of Criminal Justice (of the City University of New York) to do a study of the sexual abuse of children in the U.S. Catholic Church. I hadn't known it, but John Jay is a public institution, not affiliated with the Catholic Church. The study was extensive, and it is widely respected.

The Jay report shows the numbers of offenders to be much smaller than some would have you think, but they are still alarming. The study said that four percent of U.S. priests had had sex at least once with a minor under the age of 18. Four percent doesn't sound like much. In my diocese, new priests have training assignments to three different parishes during their first five years of priesthood. Considering that U.S. parishes have from 500 to 1500 families or more, that's exposing young priests to a large number of children - and many of those parishes have schools, which compounds the number of contacts with children and the number of possible victims. So, although the percentage of priests offending is about the same as the percentage of offenders among U.S. men in general, priests have contact with a huge number of potential victims, and so the damage done by a single offender can be phenomenal. That's why organizations that serve children must have such strict controls - because a single offender can do so much damage, and because it's so hard to predict in advance who is going to be a sex offender and who is not.

Ed, note that I said that 74 percent of dioceses paid at least something to provide for treatment for victims. I did not find information on the percentage of victims that were offered counseling, or on the quality of treatment provided. It could be that the 26 percent that did not pay for counseling, had internal staff provide counseling. To my mind, it is appalling that 26 percent of dioceses did not offer any sort of treatment, but that's what the numbers lead me to believe - that's potentially a huge number of victims who were not offered treatment. I suppose you may be surprised that there were so many dioceses that offered treatment, but that number sounds about right to me. Press coverage can easily lead people to believe that molestation of children and the coverup of such crimes has been the rule in the Catholic Church, not the exception. Most people do the right thing, and most priests and nuns and even most bishops are not evil or inhuman - but a few offenders can affect a huge number of victims.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 04:48 PM

Resource material 

Thanks Joe, I will look it over...I was actually aware of the Jay report.

I read over the 2003 Philadelphia Grand Jury report and also the Archbishops response, I understand that this location has an internal outreach program with three sociologists employed that are available to for parishners assistance, including spiritual and other services to those sexually assaulted.
If that represents the typical level of support "to assist those victims assaulted to become "whole again", it would seem very minimal, to deal with some fairly serious long -term impacts of youths being violated by people in a position of trust.

While neither of us seem to be in a position of knowledge to determine if the response was effective nor appropriate for the crimes...it is best that we not shoot down the possibility that it was effective, nor lead people to believe it was a proper response "to assist the victims to become whole".

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 04:57 PM

Ed, remember that Philadelphia, a huge archdiocese, was one location where a high-ranking diocesan official went to jail for covering up child molestation. He was later released on appeal, but I think that the jailing is a clear indication that the handling of child molestation was near-criminal, if not an actual crime.

So, I would not deem Philadelphia as an example of a "good" response. Indeed, I think that Philadelphia and Boston were among the worst offenders. My sister lived in Boston at the time of Cardinal Law, and she had been a very active Catholic. The Boston archdiocese went to such efforts to deny the problem and blame those who reported it, that my sister eventually left the Catholic Church in disgust.

I'm still an active Catholic, but that doesn't mean that I'm not often disgusted. My bishop tried to make political hay out of the abortion issue, at the expense of an order of nuns and a nonprofit that serves homeless people. As a result, I demanded (and received) a refund of my last $250 donation to the diocese three years ago, and I haven't given a penny to the diocese since.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 02:47 PM

The Irish government has announced that Judge Yvonne Murphy will head the investigation into mother and baby homes. Announcement by the Department for Children. www.irishhealth.com, Murphy to chair.....