BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?

Subject: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 03:29 AM

i was very impressed by the scottish campaign for independence- it was hugely encouraging for democracy and the chance for people to have a positive say in their own lives. what lessons can the rest of the uk (and beyond) learn from this? i don't mean the main parties or any top down notion of imposing anything on anyone - could ordinary people in (eg) the north of england get together in such a way and demand a better, austerity free life? do we have to rely on indistinguishable and corrupt parties squabbling for parliamentary advantage? is UKIP/and more far right wing media and politics all there is? we can do better than this surely? it may be naive to hope for just positive suggestions here - but there are other threads to indulge in name-calling and party politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 03:48 AM

IN MY OPINION THE MOST REFRESHING ASPECT OF THE CAMPAIGN WAS ALEX SALMOND . A POLITICIAN WHO WAS DOING HIS BEST NOT FOR HIMSELF LIKE MOST POLITICIANS, BUT FOR THE SCOTTISH PEOPLE.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 03:51 AM

I think " party politics" are the real problem, its all short term thinking and there is no longer a socialist voice in British politics.
The referendum showed that there are bigger issues than which gang of pirates are given the few small levers of power.

The system is in control unless the people do things for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 04:07 AM

Pssst Dick read this and then remark on Jowly:

"Mr Salmond remarked that the referendum was a triumph for the democratic process and participation in politics, calling 'on all of Scotland to follow suit in accepting the democratic verdict of the people of Scotland.' The First Minister finished his speech saying: 'We shall go forward as one nation"

He said that on Friday the 19th September, 2014
By Monday the 22nd September, 2014 he was threatening a possible Scottish declaration of UDI if the SNP win the next Scottish Election - so much for respecting the democratic verdict of the people of Scotland eh?

The man is a complete and utter embarrassment to Scotland and the Scottish People

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 04:55 AM

The referendum had to be delivered in order to clear the air. The Scottish Parliament has a habit of blaming Westminster for its own failures and hitherto, such positions had the tacit support of many of those they were letting down.

Now, the people can say yes, but what are you doing with the status we wish you to have?

For the rest of The UK, it starts a debate regarding what could be devolved more regionally, making sense of public spending for the communities involved. Some things are better served nationally for risk pool purposes, some by local government and if it could be efficient, (no promises..) regional assembly for commissioning services.

The Conservative party, for all their small government ideals are fans of centralised control. The small bit refers only to budget, not control. Labour are bigger fans of devolved powers, and Prescott blew his budget trying to set up government of the regions. He left it too late though.

Interestingly, away from idealism and incompetence in delivery, I am very much in tune with the inclusive, liberal, equality focused aims of SNP. They are in some ways the Labour party we don't have. Their clouded vision however hampers their fitness for purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 05:11 AM

Regional devolution was voted out a few years back, and won't come back for another generation. Otherwise we end up in the worst of short-termism, holding European-style referenda ad infinitum until we get the result we want.

What is more relevant from this is that we already have a form of regionalism, in that Scotland and Wales have devolved governments, but England does not. The Machine wants to divide and conquer, as always, by thinking about City-based regions (presumably London for the South-East, Bristol for the West, Birmingham for the Midlands, Cambridge for East Anglia, Manchester for the North West, and Newcastle for the North East), but the obvious answer is for England to have the same devolved powers and all devolution to be at the same level.

What we did in WEU coordinating foreign and defence policy in Europe was to ensure that horizontal communication (and no, I don't mean get-a-room) was continued across the Nations so it could not become a Power Game. The same should happen inside the UK, with an Assembly for each devloved Ministerial area to ensure no unmanageabe disparity of policy arises. At that point, the only Central functions needed become those where the UK as a whole has to have a single external position, in other words Foreign and Defence policy and finance.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 07:04 AM

The important point is that "extra powers" were promised by all three Westminster clowns....guaranteed!!

They lied.   They knew very well that the powers would be undeliverable, but as the referendum would be won or lost by then, it wouldn't matter.

They don't need to grant extra powers to Scotland from "day one" as they promised, but if they fail to do so, the Scottish people will punish them at the next election.

The UK is already split, one more chop should do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 08:39 AM

Seen somewhere else but I really liked it:

"1: Edinburgh Agreement signed 15th October 2012

2: "The VOW" appears on the front page of the Daily Record - aka "Scotland's National Comic" on the 16th September 2014

3: Independence Referendum held in Scotland 18th September 2014

4: By Monday 22nd September, 2014 the recently departed but still annoyingly and stridently audible Alex Salmond is muttering because the new powers have not yet been granted.

In this vow no new additional specific powers were detailed, they did mention the one's that the Scottish Parliament has always had but for some strange reason never used.

Change has been promised, change will be delivered - but that change will be delivered right across the board in Northern Ireland, Wales, England and in Scotland. England will get it's Parliament or National Assembly in which no Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish MP can vote.

I would doubt very much if the 48 hour gap between the publication of "The VOW" made any difference at all - my mind on the referendum was made up on the 15th October 2012 as I suppose were most of those who intended voting NO - to attempt to state anything other than that or that "The VOW" was a factor is simply ridiculous."

The SNP wanted the Independence Referendum the people of Scotland DID NOT.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 08:46 AM

How can David Cameron be a liar and Alex Salmond not? They do a similar job don't they?

It is this belief in people to the point of anybody else must be a liar that politicians depend on. The little people who fall for bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 01:39 PM

I heard Cameron, Darling, Brown, The Liberal wally, all declare that Scotland would be given new extra powers over Taxation, Benefits and Social Services, if the SCOTTISH people voted NO in the referendum.

England, Wales or Northern Ireland could not vote in the referendum, so these imaginary powers must have been exclusively for the SCOTTISH government......no ifs, no buts, they lied and they will continue to lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: selby
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 02:01 PM

As I understand it there is a a timetable of events to deliver what was promised as we have not reached a milestone date yet and failed how can anyone be a liar. Equally to say that people who voted against the wishes of the yes camp where bribed, is doing there own country man a disservice. Me thinks the Yes voters need to grow up understand how democracy works and work to a good outcome.

In an earlier post someone mentioned where regional capitals may locate they omitted to say that YORKSHIRE,s regional capital will obviously in York.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 02:18 PM

More citizens of the world, fewer of any nations united in saying We are us and all of you guys are Them! If you're going to secede, join the planet, don't make your own new/cling to your own old, dvisive boundaries. If you don't want to be united with the rest of your fellow nationals, try to figure out what is up with *you* instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 02:32 PM

Keith. Its Leeds. The regional government set up offices under Prescott ahead of assembly legislation that never happened. Public health was one workstream they got going and I sat on that group representing regulation. (Not a waste of time because the work became invaluable for specialised commissioning of cancer services, but I digress.)

Trust me. Leeds is the capital of Yorkshire.. I speak as a lad brought up around Sheffield, and could never understand it either. We've got a real football team for Clapton's sake. Just the one mind you.. York is a tourist trap with a hoopy music shop off the northern ring road.

Of course, to be coterminus with existing regional bodies, it is Yorkshire and The Humber, so Leeds as the capital of Yorkshire would considered alongside Brigg and Grimsby, the capitals of North Lincs and North East Lincs accordingly.

Your comments re certain failed nationalists in the counties of The UK that make up Scotland are bang on though..

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 07:32 PM

so, is england doomed?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 07:43 PM

They seem to call themselves "The 45" these days. I prefer to call them "The 44.7" as none of them are quite the full article.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 02:45 AM

Quite.

Mind you, there's a reason why Akenaton should be able to spot a liar...

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 02:59 AM

Hi John, finally jumped off that pesky fence? :0)
Hope all is well.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:52 AM

Hi Akenaton,

It was the antics of The Yes campaign which pushed me over to the other side. I was actually prepared to listen to much of what they had to say and many of them are good, honourable people. However, all the various factions were offering different visions and policies while the views and behaviour of some was quite extreme to say the least.

As polling day approached I became even more determined to vote "No" and it had nothing to do with "the vow", fear stories or any of that nonsense. Besides, the pro Indy people didn't need to take any lessons re scare mongering themselves and were offering unrealistic and wild promises which would have been unachievable.

You can always expect some exaggerations and half truths in an a election campaign but we should all be prepared to accept the result and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 05:18 AM

Maybe so John, but I don't think the young people will be prepared to "move on", which in their case means move back into an existence of hopelessness....They have tasted the same dish as we did in the sixties and they will want to feel as if they can contribute and have a purpose.
The rebirth of political thought amongst the young folk was to me, an amazing experience, I thought idealism was quite dead.
The only negative to me, was the resurrection of the old malady, sectarianism....and its link to the Unionist cause.

Always nice to hear from you John, and I always treat your views with the greatest respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 05:31 AM

"the resurrection of the old malady, sectarianism....and its link to the Unionist cause"

I never even knew about sectarianism until I came down to The Central Belt and even there it seemed to be mainly from Bathgate westwards. I'm sure the majority of No voters in Scotland wouldn't even have considered such views when reaching their decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 07:59 AM

You've led a very sheltered life John. :0)

I believe it is worse in the West and the central belt, a hangover from the days that the Labour mafia held power through its use and the works were controlled by Unionist bosses,
"Whit school did ye go tae son".

On my reckoning, at least 5% voted primarily on sectarian lines, another 5% on promises of Devo- Max which will never be made good.
The well off pensioners, featherbedded by the Scottish Govt voted 75% NO.
The young folks voted 75% YES.....and they are the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 08:12 AM

In my school in Inverness, children of all faiths studied together. There was never an issue.

New figures from The Herald indicate that only the 25-39 age group voted Yes.

Overall, even the 16-24 age group voted against independence.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/referendum-survey-suggests-a-slender-majority-of-young-people-voted-no.25407723

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 08:27 AM

Sorry, Johnny, but that's going too far. The original herald article wisely points out this is based on a survey of a little over 3000 but "However, only 14 people in that age group responded to the survey.".

Or to put it another way, it would be a serious error to assume *anything* about the 16-24 year olds in such a tiny sample. Consider, for example, what the 'swing' would be if any of that 14 were replaced by a voter of the opposite persuasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 08:39 AM

Of course, all surveys are flawed.

Also, I don't believe that any person's vote should be dismissed or regarded as having more or less value because of their age. Both older and younger people have an equal right to decide on the country's future.

Views and political opinions can also change or mellow over the years. Many angry young men and women will eventually become grumpy auld gits.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 09:18 AM

Devolved parliaments for the various regions of England? I welcome the prospect with open arms.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 09:20 AM

One would only choose York, Leeds or Sheffield if one chose to ignore regionality completely, and go instead for increased local devolution, to County level.
The reason for suggesting Newcastle is its historic geography in relation to the Debateable Lands, which we well know here. The Midlands are already over-represented in the model I gave, and adding Leeds or Sheffield, or even York, leaves a howling gap in the North. This was a past mistake not to be repeated.
But as it is, you miss my point: regional devolution was voted down a while back, and will not be back on the table for a very long time, certainly not in the next half century. The model that is working is Scotland, is Wales, is Northern Ireland: which only leaves England, at an intermediate level.
Yes, you could argue that the other groups are a fistful of millions, and england is very diverse. The South East on such a basis would be the equivalent of several Scotlands, and unless we were to take London separately from Home Counties as a ring around it, then any other separation would make little sense. Even then, living within easy walking distance of the northern edge of Greater London, the fact one can cross a road and find oneself outside the boundary without seeing any social distinction, makes it an illogical distinction.
It almost makes more sense to revert to the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms grosso-modo, Wessex, East Anglia, Mercia, The North, Home Counties.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Stu
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 09:55 AM

"The only negative to me, was the resurrection of the old malady, sectarianism....and its link to the Unionist cause."

Scottish Unionist cause, sectarianism is virtually unknown in England thankfully. There is an Orange lodge in Manchester as I stumbled upon them marching a couple of years ago. A few sad old men with angry faces living in the past and a rather pathetic sight; an anachronism.

Growing up in Brum my mates were catholic and C of E and the only way it affected us was they went to mass some Fridays and were late out.

Surely sectarianism is linked to football too? The old firm derby and all that?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 10:30 AM

You miss my point, Johnny. I am not saying the survey is flawed. A critical part of any survey is its margin of error, and in the case of this survey for the 16-24 year olds the margin of error in something like 14%. That is, whatever the stated figure it could be higher or lower by roughly 14%. Because of that range, it would be unwise to make any deductions from the headline value. I would need more information to calculate it precisely, but you can get a rough idea of the margin of error by noting that with 14 people each individual vote represents approx 7% of the final result. So changing a yes voter to a no or vice verse gives something like a 14% swing.

That is a completely different issue from whether a 16-year-olds vote is more or less significant than a 70 year olds.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:47 PM

following the vote in scotland there has been a big increase in membership for parties supporting the Yes campaign - SNP, scottish greens and scottish socialists. i heard plenty of northern english (based) people during the debate supporting the positive scots and envying their initiative and better politics. some of us joked (or dreamed) about moving the border south (maybe the M25 would be good) - and plenty of people oop north (i'm in cumbria) would rather be ruled from edinburgh than london. does anyone know of any groups in england who are campaigning on anti austerity, scrap trident etc sort of issues who are trying to import some of this scottish energy. would it possible for all us old splitters and idealists to ever build a genuinely popular left movement again?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 06:03 PM

Left movement?

Even Bonny Prince Jowly pointed out independence was an apolitical ideal.

You think it was about people with your politics. Akenaton thinks it was about people with his. You can't both be right.

Though of course, you may possibly both be wrong...

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 06:28 PM

that was part of my question - can we get people with a broad range of views on the left to work together to bring a bit of hopeful energy to the political scene? will scots now condemned to westminster rule for the foreseeable join with the more progressive elements south of the border? is this an opportunity for the greens, especially with the labour party giving up any pretence of being a left of centre party?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 06:50 PM

DMcG very good point.
Polls and stats have a significant potential for error UNLESS u are a politician or or have a hidden personal agenda
I mean there are lies, damned lies and statistics. :<)

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 06:51 PM

This is kinda an interesting poll. However, unlike many surveys, they do not seem to give many details on the statistical methods if selecting the respondants- so, it is difficulty to determine the rating of statistical accuracy.


yougovt poll 

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 07:52 AM

1: "can we get people with a broad range of views on the left to work together to bring a bit of hopeful energy to the political scene?"

I dare say that you could try, but as usual it would ultimately end in failure, as the last time this was tried was. Every experimentation in "socialism" starts out well supported with everyone yelling how great it will all be, then those actually running the show find themselves confronting real problems that require real solutions which may prove to be highly unpopular so the problems get ignored or "fudged". Then when it all turns to shit (As it did in 1951; 1970; 1979 & 20104i.e. those responsible for running things} weren't really "socialists" after all.

2: "will scots now condemned to westminster rule for the foreseeable join with the more progressive elements south of the border?"

Ah GUEST,achmelvich since 1999 no Scots have been condemned to Westminster rule - they have had their own Parliament which has been almost exclusively "left-wing" and "socialist" in nature. That devolved Parliament was granted tax raising powers from its inception but no Scottish Government whether Labour or Scottish Nationalist ever saw fit to use them {Much easier to blame Westminster which is what Jowly & Co did during the Referendum Campaign} - which kinda begs the question "If you don't use the extra powers you've had for 15 years, what the hell are you going to do with these additional powers being called for now?"

The additional powers will never be used to increase tax revenue as that would make the elected government unpopular with the electorate - No good just saying "Tax the Rich" because then the rich just move taking their money with them and you end up taking in less than before - your tax regime must not only be "fair" but it has to seen as being "fair to all" (Top 10% income bracket {The Rich} pay ~45% of the total tax revenue collected from income) squeezing them more is generally not a good idea short, medium of long term.

Between 1997 and 2010 there appeared to be a meeting of minds between these socialist progressive minds north and south of the border - it resulted in the country {The UK} going from being fairly well positioned financially and economically to almost being totally ruined.   

3: "is this an opportunity for the greens"

The Greens as partners are "toxic" for any potential political party - take them onboard and you end up getting roped into daft deals that cost a fortune in terms of money, businesses and jobs.

4: "especially with the labour party giving up any pretence of being a left of centre party?"

There you go - Not real socialists - but I am pleased that you have met and have recognised that new phenomenon - the Professional Politician - capable of sporting any campaign rosette of any colour, never held down an actual job in his life, and is only interested in gaining power by whatever means, subterfuge or promise (None of which he ever intended to honour) then is totally focused on holding onto power irrespective of the damage done to the country in pursuit of that goal - Thus Gordon Brown sold off the Gold Reserves of the UK and raided the Pension Funds (To buy votes) allowed unchecked mass immigration to ensure there would be a sufficiency of Labour voters at the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 03:18 AM

1. 'can we get people with a broad range of views on the left to work together on the political scene and bring a bit of hopeful energy?' not always doomed to failure - see scotland in the last month.
2. can that energy move south? well, the greens are doing well down here too - me and mrs ach just joined, anyway
3. not ruled from westminster? heard on the radio this morning that the uk government has informed the scottish government by phone call that the central belt area of scotland is to be approved for fracking. no consultation with the people or the parliament. where's your devolved powers noo? really, you would think that english politicians were deliberately trying to annoy the scots - and that's before the tory conference and a few days of ukip. referundum or not we are increasingly become 2 more different parties

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 03:23 AM

oops - when i said 'parties' i meant countries. if england wants to go down the tory lite/tory/ultra tory route with continued austerity and cameronjohnson/farage in charge, trident and endless wars then formal seperation with scotland is inevitable - just a matter of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 04:04 AM

Scotland in the last month?? The entire United Kingdom over the period of the last two years has been subjected to highly damaging and unnecessary upheaval and uncertainty on a whim promoted by a minority in Scotland. There was absolutely nothing "hopeful" about it - The Scottish Independence Referendum - a complete and utter waste of time, money and resources.

For your sake I do earnestly hope that one day "The Greens" will eventually come up with something that is vaguely sensible that doesn't cost anybody their job and that meets the demands required by society.

Fracking? "Though energy policy is an area reserved to the UK government under the Scotland Act 1998 that established devolved government for Scotland, the Scottish Government has an energy policy for Scotland at variance with UK policy, and has planning powers to enable it to put some aspects of its policy priorities into effect."

Sorry but I thought that the SNP were all for fracking in order to boost the country's income from fossil fuels - ask the members of the N56 Business Body Committee that Jowly & Co., were so keen on quoting.

"Continued Austerity" - By that are you referring to the "not-so-drastic" measures that had to be implemented by the Coalition Government in 2010 to get the country out of the shit left as usual by the outgoing Labour Government? The "not-so-drastic" measures that have managed to turn the economy round and has given the UK the best economic growth figures in the western world? Our current leaders are actually in fact leading and do not seem overly preoccupied in winning a popularity contest - but there again government is about leadership and about being able to follow through on tough decisions made for the good of the nation as a whole (Government is about looking out for the national interest - we citizens are responsible for looking after ourselves).

"Trident" - The majority of people want it - live with it - it is the only thing that actually defends our country and guarantees our freedom and sovereignty.

"Endless Wars"?? What endless wars?? The UK has not been engaged in a war since 1945.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 05:06 AM

I was with you till the last bit Terribulus. It may be technically correct but there are enough young war widows and greiving parents to seek clarification of your claim we have not been at war since 1945...

Hitherto, I was bemused when agreeing with many of your valid points re Scotland and the political reality but then reading some of your more ludicrous comments about The Middle East. I've sussed it. It's armed conflict where you have difficulties grasping reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 05:28 AM

Musket old chap radicalist/fundamentalist/militant Islam declared "war" on the rest of the non-believing world about 43 years ago.

All instances where British Forces have been engaged on active service since the end of the Second World War have been in response to obligations related to bilateral self-defence treaties, in response to requests by the United Nations, in response to assistance requested as "Aid to the Civil Power", in response to obligations related to membership of NATO or in response to naked aggression and direct invasion of sovereign territory. IIRC 1968 was the only year since the end of the Second World War that no UK serviceman or woman was killed on active duty.

To state that the United Kingdom has not been "at War" since 1945 is not merely technically correct Musket - it is factually correct, perhaps you should review what it means for a nation to be at war actually involves.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 08:05 AM

There is no good reason for Scotland to be IN NATO, in fact we would be much safer outside......as someone who lives only a few miles from Coulport, as the crow flies, I would be delighted to see the weapons of mass destruction removed and proper jobs found for those who service them.

Achmelvich is correct, we have been involved in military adventures almost continuously for the last thirty years all of these adventures have been to make political points, not for the good of the people we were supposed to be assisting. Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and soon Syria are lawless wastelands, prefect breeding grounds for the lunatics of Islamic fundamentalism. Even the Falklands was a wild gamble which came off and gave the Tories a few more years of power.

I do not think this state of affairs happened "by accident", I am sure the destabilisation of the Middle East and North Africa was a long term objective of NATO and the West.

Divide and rule being the maxim, but the whole scenario has got out of hand, now it has become a damage limitation exercise.

For a small trading nation we would be much better out of NATO and out of the political machinations of the EU.
The dream lives, and SNP membership keeps growing   over 60,000 from 17'000 in a week........roll on the election and God help Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 08:12 AM

"For a small trading nation we would be much better out of NATO and out of the political machinations of the EU."

Not SNP policy at the moment. Do all the new members realise that?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: selby
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 08:20 AM

In case it has escaped anyone Scotland can not get out of NATO as it is part of The United Kingdom, Scotland by a clear majority last week voted to stay in the UK.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 08:27 AM

"I am sure the destabilisation of the Middle East and North Africa was a long term objective of NATO and the West."

Ludicrous creating an unstable Middle-East and North Africa is of benefit to NATO? and the "big,bad, West" in what way Akenaton?

"Divide and rule being the maxim"

Really? Whose? Pray tell where have either NATO or "The West" divided and ruled in the entire 65 years of their existence?

A small trading nation is correct - become independent and you lose 80% of your trade at a stroke.

Choice between creating a Scottish Defence Force and increasing benefits by £2 a week and the vote will go for benefits, resulting in the situation where anyone can fish out your waters and anyone could take over your offshore oil and gas fields then hold them to ransom - independent Scotland would not be able to do a single thing about it.

SNP membership growing? All that proves is that there are at least 60,000 truly certifiable eedjits in amongst Scotland's population of some 5,313,600 people {That amounts to 1.12% of the population}.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 09:05 AM

There wasn't a single political party advocating withdrawal from NATO during the independence debate. Also, the party Akenaton claims to be a member of led the legislative work to introduce gay marriage and equal rights for all, irrespective of race, gender, disability or sexual orientation. Yet he claims they are in tune with his sick creed.

I doubt he actually knows what SNP is, although I did email SNP communications office with a link to his claims on this website that Salmond believes the exact opposite of his party manifesto, and gave Akenaton's details.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 11:07 AM

Aw, don't fret, Musket, we all know the real Akhenaten had medical problems. He's just copying his avatar.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 11:45 AM

Is that who he bases himself on? Is it an alternative spelling or a measure of intellect?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 12:20 PM

Akenaton and myself have had several robust discussions over the years on different forums but we always had the decency to address each other directly and never saw fit to resort to making such snide comments as those I've read in the last few posts.

By all means, we can disagree with each other and challenge opinions but, please, can we try to play the ball and not the man?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 12:36 PM

I never said withdrawal from NATO and the EU were official SNP policy John, but after we become an independent nation EVERYTHING is on the table. It is up to the politicians who are elected to government to present policies which will be acceptable to the Scottish people, In all probability it will be a Scottish Labour/SNP coalition.

Mr T..."
Ludicrous creating an unstable Middle-East and North Africa is of benefit to NATO? and the "big,bad, West" in what way Akenaton?"

Well Sir, can you think of any other reason that that they should have behaved in such an utterly stupid fashion?
I don't believe we can put the whole shambles down to stupidity.
The removal of the dictators Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, and the Egyptian guy who's name escapes me,opened up the whole fundamentalist
can of worms, yet we move into a coalition with the worst dictatorships in the Middle East, people who have been funding the decapitators for years....Ludicrous indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Stu
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 12:39 PM

"The UK has not been engaged in a war since 1945."

This is Tezza trolling. He chucks in arguments involving sematics when he's up against it. For all his instance we've been at war with someone since the Falklands pretty much.

Are you happy now we're off again Tezza? There's not enough gore in the world for many it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 12:44 PM

Ian....You are like a record player with the needle stuck in the groove......take your homosexual "marriage" and stick it where the sun don't shine, go back and play in your sand pit, we are discussing issues of some importance to the people of Scotland and the UK.

Homosexual "marriage" is of importance to 0.04 of the population.....and YOU of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 12:45 PM

Johnny. I don't see bigoted shit on the same level as human beings. Speaking about it is far better than addressing it direct. You don't have to shower afterwards.

If you read his disgusting diatribe, which thankfully comes under the criminal act of propogating hatred, you might just think twice about defending him. Lying about a section of the community in order to villify them is not free speech.

Mind you, you have to laugh.. "when we become an independent nation.." A few posts up it rattles on about resisting the outcome. His hatred seems to extend to the Scottish people?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 01:44 PM

I have never met John personally, but I do know from experience that he is one of the most decent and helpful people that I have ever encountered.
We disagree amicably on a fair few subjects, and he is a truly liberal person in the very best sense of the word.....he also has a highly developed sense of humour, and a huge circle of friends in the folk world.....I value his kindness and depth.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:06 PM

Teribus....It is beneath your usual level of debate to brand new SNP members as Certifiable Eejits(please get your spelling right, if nothing else) :0)
The referendum debate has promoted political thought amongst sections of the public who had previously been uninterested.
The idea of National pride and personal responsibility allied to a sensible attitude towards our place in the world as a small trading nation, must surely be a good thing, no matter what ones political views may be?

Could you please explain your remarks concerning the loss of 80% of our trade if we become independent....that seems rather "ludicrous" to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:27 PM

akenaton,

Whilst I think that you are right to question Tebibus's remark concerning the 'loss of 80% of our trade' you could perhaps justify some of the figures you quote such as:

Homosexual "marriage" is of importance to 0.04 of the population

and

at least 5% voted primarily on sectarian lines, another 5% on promises of Devo- Max...young folks voted 75% YES

Could you please give your sources for these figures? Or did you just make them up?

Thanks,

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:28 PM

Tebibus = Teribus. My apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 03:00 PM

Sorry Ed, but I've promised SRS that I will stop responding to trolls.

I'm sure there are a few like minds who will accommodate you.

The woods are full of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 03:09 PM

I'm sorry??? But in what sense is politely asking you to justify some figures that you quote trolling?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 03:55 PM

Good try, Ed, a few posters frequently mis-use the term "troll" as an "easy out", often when they are "found out" and asked to be personably responsible for their post content- by (at a minimum) providing sources for figures they loosely throw about, (or, quite often made up, or "cherry picked"). Is it not odd that these folks have the time to respond by calling another poster a name (by doing what they chastise others for)   under a disguise of not responding to another posters question:


"A brick could be used to raise your status as an upstanding citizen. Don't get too excited, though. It'll only raise you up about three inches.
" 
― Jarod Kintz, Brick


)

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 02:48 AM

I suppose you see everybody as trolls when you reckon equality is only of interest to 0.04% of the population. Especially when you claim The SNP don't actually support their own liberal agenda.

Never mind. Scotland has been offered the chance to look idiots and declined the offer. Move on. The younger generations can look forward to more certainty and, interestingly, more impetus to hold the Scottish Parliament to account for their powers, instead of blaming Westminster for their own failings.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: selby
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 02:56 AM

The Scotland issue is very much like the fairy tale of the kings new cloths there are those that can see the truth and benefits then there are those who listen to the SNP who have had power but blamed every body else for their failings.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 04:57 AM

80% of Scotland's trade at present is with the countries that make up the rest of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Had Scotland voted YES it would have found itself an independent country on the 24th March 2016 according to Jowly's timetable.

That independent Scotland would have found itself:
1: Using someone else's currency over which it had no control
2: Financially hobbled as its borrowing costs would have been through the roof and with absolutely no handle on interest rates
3: A non-EU member state.

In the time between the result of the YES vote being announced and independence all of Scotland's "customers" in England, Northern Ireland and in Wales would have to make the purely business decision of paying more (the EU levies automatic penalties on member states buying stuff from non-EU countries) or finding alternative suppliers. Companies based in Scotland would be faced with making purely business decisions regarding reduction of prices to customers (Which would of course involve cutting their own costs, like wages), finding alternative customers for their products, or relocating to England, Wales or Northern Ireland. The latter by the way would be found to be the optimum for the business in question, and the easiest to implement.

Akenaton the fundamentalist can of worms has been open since 1971 and you would have seen and appreciated that had you been paying attention - nothing whatsoever to do with Iraq, Libya or Egypt.

Your 60,000 certifiable eejits (Nothing wrong with the spelling of either word there Ake - eejit and eedjit are accepted spellings according to the "Urban Dictionary") Ake have joined in the hope that they can make this issue into an "Neverendum" to be adopted at the next SNP Conference. If they succeed in doing that against the plainly demonstrated wishes of the Scottish people then if adopted by the SNP then at the 2016 Scottish Parliamentary Elections the prospect of independence becoming a "neverendum" will be used as a club to beat the SNP with. The last two years have shown the SNP to be exactly what they are - small minded, petty, spiteful nationalists who have only their own interests at heart. "Nationalism" does not have a single redeeming feature it could call its own and it should never, ever be confused or conflated with "patriotism".

Some of the many positive things that have come out of the NO result:
1: We are still the UK
2: Increased devolutionary powers will be extended to each member state making up the UK - (Not just Scotland Ake)
3: The normally silent NO voters have been roused and the indelible lesson they were taught in the referendum campaign was that apathy and non-participation with regard to politics in Scotland is now no longer an option - they universally oppose the SNP and what the SNP seeks to do
4: All those rushing to the YeSNP banner who had to register to vote in Scotland are all now being checked against non-payment of Poll Tax - the Revenue look like making inroads into recovering at least some of the £300 million that wasn't paid - priceless, absolutely priceless.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 09:57 AM

An interesting hypothesis Mr T, but I don't think you can state with any degree of certainty, that "Scotland would lose 80% if its trade if becoming independent"
I have little knowledge of big business methods, but I know that made in Scotland is a sought after brand and we produce many things that the world wants any temporary obstacles would be overcome by everyone working in their own interests.......just like the currency issue, but the fear tactic worked for the moment.

You are a bit behind the times Teribus, there are now almost 75000 SNP "eejits" who want to put their heart and soul into obtaining self determination for Scotland. This equates to the whole population of a medium sized town!......and still rising, how many people are rushing to join the Westminster parties?......With the exception of Mr Farage's band of rebels, he has certainly shown up Westmister toadies for what they are.

The "vow" of more powers, was made to only the people of Scotland IF they voted NO in the referendum, no ifs, no buts, and they better come up with the goods before the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 10:03 AM

Oh yes, the Poll Tax, that would certainly be the end for Westminster if they ever attempted to reopen THAT can of worms.. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 05:35 AM

Not only "an interesting hypothesis" Akenaton but a fairly accurate one particularly if everyone looked after "their own interests".

So 75,000 village idiots now is it? It may very well equate to the population of a medium sized town but the last time I looked the will of the majority of the electorate of Scotland decides the outcome - not the number of card carrying members of any specific political party - this is the UK Akenaton not the U.S.S.R, or Orwell's Animal Farm

"The "vow" of more powers, was made to only the people of Scotland IF they voted NO in the referendum".

Well here is the actual wording of that VOW (Taken from Scotland's National Comic "The Daily Record" of the 16th September 2014) - I have highlighted the bits that refer to the the whole of the UK which means all four nations that make it up:

"The VOW

The people of Scotland want to know that all three main parties will deliver change for Scotland.

WE ARE AGREED THAT:

The Scottish Parliament is permanent and extensive new powers for the Parliament will be delivered by the process and to the timetable agreed and announced by our three parties, starting on the 19th September.

And it is our hope that the people of Scotland will be engaged directly as each party works to improve the way we are governed in the UK in the years ahead.

We agree that the UK exists to ensure opportunity and security for all by sharing our resources equitably across all four nations to secure the defence, prosperity and welfare of every citizen.

And because of the continuation of the Barnett allocation for resources, and the powers of the Scottish Parliament to raise revenue, we can state categorically that the final say on how much is spent on the NHS will be a matter for the Scottish Parliament.

We believe that the arguments that so powerfully make the case for staying together in the UK should underpin our future as a country. We will honour those principles and values not only before the referendum but after.

People want to see change. A No vote will deliver faster, safer and better change than separation.

So Akenaton not just Scotland - Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland all have their own Parliaments or Assemblies only England does not, that mismatch has got to be addressed and if Westminster Members of Parliament are excluded from voting on solely national issues within those devolved Parliaments and Assemblies then in all conscience Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland Members of the Westminster Parliament should not be allowed to vote on issues that solely affect England and its population.

But not much point in granting additional powers if successive Scottish Governments elected to power in Scotland are not going to use them for fear of becoming unelectable at the next election. The successive Scottish Governments since 1999, all "socialist" in nature, have not once used their powers to raise revenue in Scotland in fifteen years to address any of the problems they moan about.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 05:49 AM

Educating 🐖 again I see.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 02:28 PM

75,000 of the already converted are now SNP members?
Only 2,001,926 to convert for an overall consensus.
"Come back Torquemada" is the new SNP Battle cry.
I hear he is looking for an assistamt I wonder which "thistle heid whapper" that will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 03:04 AM

"Oh yes, the Poll Tax, that would certainly be the end for Westminster if they ever attempted to reopen THAT can of worms."

Great pity that it is not reintroduced it is after all a much fairer system, taking into account that the money raised pays for local services and in Scotland water.

Saw this somewhere else and it made the point beautifully:

Two houses in the same Council Tax Band.
One is the home of a widowed OAP, the other is a the family home of a grown family with five wage earners living in it.

Under Council Tax rules both houses pay the same amount. But which of those homes puts the greatest strain on the services provided by the Council? The family home produces five times the amount of rubbish for the council to clear and uses at least five times the water that the widow's house does. Now under Poll Tax the bill would be split six ways instead of two and it would mean that those who actually utilised the services actually pay for them - now I would say that that was fair wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 03:58 AM

The poll tax or community charge was a good idea in principle but unworkable. It's all very well for everyone to make a contibution but not everyone can actually afford that. Collection is also a big issue especially if someone doesn't have a fixed address or income. Also, does a person with NF Abode or single person living with thei parent really fully use the same services?

The present council tax in Scotland is not a bad compromise whereby single occupiers are entitled to a discount but, personally, I'd prefer some form of local income tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 04:58 AM

Side issue..

Poll tax or the present form of council tax, the hilarious events of the last few weeks remain..

Those who had gone under the radar to avoid being chased for the money they owe decided to go back on the electoral register to vote. The councils then carried out their statutory duties when it comes to tax avoidance

Salmond says the tax cheats shouldn't have to pay because they revealed themselves as patriots.... (Any MSP who votes for such a measure, any councillor for that matter could find themselves surcharged if they try writing off debt of bodies not under their direct control. See The Clay Cross "martrys" for details.

On this occasion, a sarcastic quip from yours truly would be superflous to the satire reality has thrown us.

😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 05:16 AM

Ehmmm Johnny J, your local income tax would be simpler and easier to collect than Poll Tax how exactly?

I dare say that there would be very convincing arguments put forward by those who felt that they couldn't afford to pay, or finding those who should be paying but who have "no-fixed-abode" or fixed income. But there again you could deduct it at source couldn't you - exactly the same as you could have done for Poll Tax collection.

Either way Poll Tax, as was, and a local income tax {And like you I would prefer some form of local income tax} are far fairer ways of meeting the costs of local council provided services than the current Council Tax. "Households" and property do not use council provided services - the people that live and work in them do, so it is the people that live in them should pay as individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 05:41 AM

"your local income tax would be simpler and easier to collect than Poll Tax how exactly"

Most of us are still PAYE, I think.
I get your point though and it may be that it would be the higher earners and "rich" who would then try to avoid payment rather than the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 06:01 AM

Even Westminster politicians would not be stupid enough to try to enforce Poll Tax payments.
Does no one remember the demonstrations which followed its introduction.......what a gift to Independence THAT would be!

Back to reality, seems the promises of huge additional powers for the Scottish government are being quietly kicked into the long grass.

Or blended into a "neverland" of regional devolution, which of course will also be "consulted on" until we are all under the sod.

The fearties and well off pensioners who scuppered the bid for Scottish self determination will soon be overtaken by an army of newly motivated young people, many of whom will wish to be involved in politics at party level.
Westminster's rule has had its day, Independence will come.
The seed has been planted, the young folk have found something which inspires them, makes then feel as if they have a purpose....they will not get back in their cages and be fed their benefits through the bars.    The human spirit never ceases to amaze me!

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 06:15 AM

Perhaps they can start by paying the arrears they owe the country they love...

😹😹😹

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: selby
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 06:20 AM

Westminster politicians SHOULD chase down the poll tax cheats it is the law of the land or does SNP Scotland in its little cosy world of Brigadoon decide what is right for them and bugger everyone else.
I thought that the referendum was a good idea and fair for all. I love Scotland and its people but there comes a point when even your friends tell you to shut up and grow up as you are doing more damage to yourself than you think.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 07:45 AM

Very well said Musket ........ liked that a lot!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 08:00 AM

"The fearties and well off pensioners"

I would regard myself as neither and, whatever the exact figures, many people of all ages also voted "No". The over 65s wouldn't have carried the day on their own.

It's also an erroneous assumption that the political views of an individual will always remain constant throughout his or her lifetime. If this was the case, then the Tories would have long ceased to exist but many former left leaning young people become conservative with a small "c" as they get older, buy property, move up the ladder of life and so on. I'm not suggesting that this is right or necessarily a good thing but it appears to be what happens.

Dick Gaughan sadly summed it up in this song.

http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/songs/texts/whathappened.html

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 08:06 AM

Oops

http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/songs/texts/whathappened.html

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 03:52 AM

John, I didn't mean to imply that the votes of young people are "worth more" than those of folks who are nearing the end of their lives, but the motivations are quite different. Like it or not the youth are the future of Scotland and how we are to be governed will affect them for a very long time.

Also, the Scottish demographic is rather weird to say the least, containing a large number of people over working age, as well as a huge "English residing in Scotland" demographic.....the ratio of 1 in ten is calculated. Most of these "immigrants",do not contribute to the Scottish economy, but avail themselves of the benefits(free care for the elderly, council tax freeze, free prescriptions, etc)fought so hard for by the SNP government.
There are many in this area of Argyll and in the referendum most seemed to be in the NO camp.

In my lifetime I have seen people change, as you mention, but not usually in their political opinions.....people do become more conservative socially, and quite rightly, the speed of social change propelled by the media has no basis in common sense and is often a hindrance to the creation of a sensible, sustainable, and a REAL egalitarian society.
I have been a socialist since I was 17 and still retain my political views, but years of life experience have proved to me, that social conservatism is in our interests as a society. Social change should be affected slowly....in an evolutionary fashion, or the effects could be terminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 03:58 AM

"Effected"

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 04:57 AM

Or put in more succinct words.

The people of Scotland rejected independence.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 06:05 AM

So 1 in 10 of Scottish residents are English 'immigrants' of pensionable age?

Really? Once again, akenaton, I ask you to justify your figure.

Oh damn, I forgot that questioning the veracity of your assertions is considered trolling...

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 06:26 AM

It's not his fault. He genuinely thinks he is a typical Scot when even SNP when debating legislation point to people of his views as, and I quote from the deputy first minister "a stain on society."

If he bothers he will give you some American statistics anyway, judging by his previous terminological inexactitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 07:21 AM

:0).....The people who are "a stain on society", are those who terrorised George Square, wrapped in the Union flag and the Red Hand of Ulster.
The "Butchers apron" and the "Bloody Hand"......Dysfunctional members of our happy "family"?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 07:31 AM

STATS

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 09:05 AM

Thank you for your stats, akenaton.

Whilst it's not going to be precise (your figures coming from 2005 and mine from the 2011 Census), it doesn't take a mathematical genius to note that 61,582 English born people over 65 in populatin of 5,295,403 isn't exactly 10% is it?

In case you can't do the maths, it's a little over 1%. Indeed, the entire English born population (including those too young to vote) of 408,948 amounts to less than 8%.

If you're going to quote statistics in support of your argument, at least get them remotely correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 09:13 AM

Yes, she was referring to bigots now you mention it.. That's two examples we have.

😹

Interesting stats. Don't support your theory, but fair play, they do look like stats.

Yet another way of saying the people of Scotland rejected independence. I like democracy because faith in people to use their intelligence is so important.

If it helps, I am not too happy to call you a fellow British subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 09:20 AM

Stats and exact figures aside, these English born voters are now living in Scotland, for whatever reason, and are surely entitled to a view on the future of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 11:32 AM

Ed....Don't try to insult me, I'm far too ignorant! :0)

What I said was the demographic of "English residing in Scotland"....between 9 and 10%....they are not ALL retired, or EARLY retired, but very many of them are. Early retirement, sell their house in the South of England, move up here buy a better house at half the price, educate their kids and grandkids for nothing, low council tax, free health care.... While our own young people cant even get a mortgage for a crummy flat, as most of them are on low paid short term working.....but its good for the Westminster employment figures isn't it?


"Stats and exact figures aside, these English born voters are now living in Scotland, for whatever reason, and are surely entitled to a view on the future of the country."

Yes John, but there is no balance, in percentage terms there are far more English living here than Scots living in England and their political input is disproportionate.
On a rough personal poll of my customers and their friends, I would say over 80% voted to retain the Union....not only that, but they are almost all upper middle class....we don't see many English "workies" up here, although there was apparently an influx of EDL supporters in amongst the "family gathering" in George Square?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 11:48 AM

Much easier transportation (for those not liking things where they are) than it was a few hundred years ago.:)


Direct flights 

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 03:35 AM

Sounds to me that those who see Scotland's potential didn't wish to risk the country's future by reckless nationalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 04:07 AM

i don't really recognise much of these comments about the english (or non-scots) living in scotland. i have moved over the border five times(i was born north of carlisle but south of the border) most recently i worked for 6 years at a homeless hostel in aberdeen and have been up many times for football, music and to visit our chldren and the highlands. i havn't come across any retired english or even middle class english though don't dispute there are many. i found in the north west (round ullapool) often english people were prominent in starting up or maintaining businesses with not much apparent resentment. in the organisation i worked for, at training days or union meetings local aberdeen voices were relatively quiet while the english people usually have plenty to say -when they could get the weegies to shut up! my attitude has to been to try to be open and friendly with everyone - no matter where they come from - perhaps because of my own cross-border confusion i really can't be bothered to care where people are from or what class they are. there are some very good people and some not so good but the vast majority of us are all just trying to get by without harming anyone. a major reason why i was (am) so enthusiastic about the Yes campaign was their definition of a scot as simply someone who lives there. it is inclusive and massively positive for everyone who lives in scotland or loves the country but wasn't born there. what a contrast to the increasingly deeply unpleasant and racist way that english politics is going. in scotland there is a tradition and a desire to help people in hard times -in england we blame them. The Yes campaign was more about this issue -and the ridiculous westminster show - than any anti-english or nationalist politics. i'm hoping this momentum keeps going and we can import it over the border - but i hae ma doots!

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 04:26 AM

But don't confuse dismay at the appallingly awful Westminster perspective and whether or not part of The UK would be better off alone.

We are all guilty of encouraging feckless politicians and we provide the impetus for newspaper barons to influence them. Dividing us just strengthens knee jerk politics. Show me where Holyrood is fundamentally any different to Westminster other than the policies of the party of the moment? No matter how you voted, you were going to get a government that offers more than it delivers.

And every single person that voted had a vote as legitimate as the next. Every single person went into the voting booth on the basis of accepting the outcome. That's the fundamental basis of bothering to vote in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 04:45 AM

holyrood uses a proportional representation system. this is designed to be non-confrontational in that parties are forced to compromise and co-operate to form a government. the building itself is open to the public and the debates in the chamber are more grown up and well attended than the old boys' club at westminster. the MSPs are less distant and more accountable to their constituents. (and 85% turnout! pretty good)
at present the SNP have an overall majority in Holyrood -and though it won't last, it is more likely to now there has been a No vote. The Yes campaign was a coalition of many groups, a coalition that will probably split up following independence - but that is well-functioning democracy.
Did I read that a labour government (UK) could be elected on 32% of the vote? surely that system is broken and we could do better

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 04:48 AM

In the referendum we were not voting for a "government", but for the idea of self representation.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 04:59 AM

what can we learn from the "neverendum" ?

Well:
1) if you word the question right - you get a bias in your favour that has nothing to do with the issues. People will tend towards the "Yes" answer. Look at the wording - it was imposed by Alec Salmond.
2) Young people have less grasp on the history, recent or long standing, and are more likely to favour novelty. Look at the age range imposed by ................
3) When Quebec voted they got not independance but a new law (and its language) that made a lot of big corporations decamp to Toronto - redundancy! Mess with the status quo and there are unexpected consequences. Unexpected not because they were not voiced, but because the politicians valued their importance over reality. Think Banking (can we have our money back?) Look at .............
4) History repeats itself. It has to, nobody is listening. Well actually they are but they ain't the ones on a quest of self importance.
5) Would Greece be in the situation it is if polititions had not pursued a policy of giving the public what they wanted? Instead of what was prudent?

Scotland is a valued member of the United Kingdom, culturally and in friendship and we can ignore the value that is the relative share of the total tax income (more than any other region). Beware, if one province were to split - how long before London declares UDI? Eh yup - Yorkshire decided not to devolve.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 05:31 AM

as i recall the wording for the referendum was agreed between salmond and cameron. and it was cameron that specifically ruled out the devo max option . at least until the last 5 minutes of the campaign when it was cynically inserted to swing it for the nae sayers.

'young people have less grasp on history and are more likely to favour novelty...' this is patronising nonsense. all of us at any age are capable of being disinteresed in politics or just dim (think of the recent popularity of UKIP among older, white, middle class males)

if there is one lesson we should have learned from history it is the dangers of blaming and demonising the less successful and minority groups in our society. young people are generally much more comfortable with this than some of their 'wiser' elders. one lesson the scots have learned is -'you don't trust the tories'

how do we use the recent surge of interest and engagement in politics for all our benefits and to breath new life into the dead and divisive english (OK then, UK) system of government

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 11:31 AM

And those saying here that the vote was for a system rather than a government were the same reckless fools saying a yes vote meant embracing SNP policies, such as promises on trident, NHS, social care, education...

Out of interest, we have a coalition in Westminster, so have had a form of PR anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 12:16 PM

"Out of interest, we have a coalition in Westminster, so have had a form of PR anyway"...:0)   ha ha....Lets have a guessing game, what does "PR" stand for in that context!

I could think of several, but think I'll leave it to Jim Knowledge."

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 12:22 PM

I think it's suffixed by the letters ATS.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 12:26 PM

Very good guest.....bit too kind though, anything more fittingly vicious?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 12:45 PM

""Young people have less grasp on the history, recent or long standing, and are more likely to favour novelty. Look at the age range imposed by ...............""

You mention the Quebec analogy. Recent surveys indicate young voters there are less interested in separation today, and are mostly interested in economic concerns than independence from Canada. (Things could change, and situations may differ- but, these current indicators in this location suggests that time may lesson, versus strengthen, youth interest in separation).

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 01:31 PM

I think you are right achmelvich, I saw the phenomenon at first hand, saw young people taking an interest in the campaign for independence.....a generation whom I thought had no interest in the political system, how wrong I was....these young folks are now signing up in droves to make a material difference to the status of our country.
We are in for a few interesting years, if I was a betting man, I would have my house on Scotland being free by 2017.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 03:00 AM

Does that mean I'll get it at a bargain knock down price? Add in the cost of a builder to put it right...

It'd take a couple of years for the property's reputation to die down but you'd be surprised what people will put up with for a cheap holiday.

Holiday lets for next year took off after the vote. Talking to two cottage letting agents over the last couple of weeks, it isn't just mine either. Confidence in Scotland has shot up. The Dutch and Belgians who had been waiting for the outcome, they are the main ones booking, followed by English who waited to see how it panned out. By the way, I am a betting man and although the odds were lousy, (bookies understand The Scots better than SNP do) I still made just over £200 on my bet.

Scotland keep supplying the faux cheesy tartan, I'll keep supplying the punters. Win win.



On a serious note, it'll not be so easy to get criminal tax avoiders to register to vote next time, so I doubt even SNP, if they wish to carry on as a day to day party will dare another humiliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 03:07 AM

Achmelvich is correct. The Yes campaign lost the vote but the No campaign had already given up trying to win it on the terms they chose to fight it on. Prior to the campaign the various polls showed that of the three options (status-quo; independence; or some form of devomax) the devomax option was the most popular among ordinary Scots. Though not their favoured option the Scottish gvt was willing to have a third devomax question on the ballot paper. It was the unionist parties and the UK gvt who threw this out. The ballot was to be about a straight 'in or out' question. Any idea of further devolution was to be a question for the future and not for the referendum. And remember some were hostile to the idea of further devolution. Ruth Davidson in her leadership campaign for the Tories declared that the Scotland Bill was the line in the sand. There would be no more powers!!

The No campaign expected to win the referendum easily so in the last few weeks when it looked far too close for their comfort it was suddenly declared that there would be more powers. Not a question of if but a question of what and when. The people who took the original Ruth Davidson stance were pushed aside in the panic and were told they were getting no voice on the matter. There would be more powers whether they liked it or not. An aspect of this which seems to have been completely ignored. We are a split household in that I was a Yes whilst my wife was not only a No but actually through her association with the Tories actively worked for Better Together. Her original stance was further devolution shouldn't be on the table because "why should Alex Salmond have a consolation prize?". Didn't think it was the most logical position to take but it was her position never the less. She's forgotten that now and isn't it great all these powers Cameron is going to give us is the position!!!

As to who the long time winners will be. It is hard to say but it could well be just that it has been delayed for a while. Out of a room of 20 people who voted it was only 11-9 to retain the union. Out of said room only one person need be swayed to make it even so despite what some claim about a big victory it was much closer than people expected and it doesn't seem to have done the Nats any harm in the short term. Not only are they well ahead in the polls for Holyrood but they are also even ahead on the voting intentions for Westminster which must be making Labour nervous in the extreme. Their core support, at least in the short term, seems to have mushroomed. I don't know if that stat has been distributed widely throughout the UK?

At the time of the referendum the membership of the SNP was around 25,000 members which equated to just about as many members as the other three main parties combined. Labour have something like 13,000 and the Tories 11,000 though I can tell you the bulk of Tory membership in Scotland is quite elderly. In the several weeks since the vote SNP membership has rocketed without, they admit themselves, them even trying to obtain new members. It now stands officially at over 75,000 and I've seen reports that this does not include a few thousands applications yet to be processed as thousands have been applying every day. People are talking about 100,000 members within a few weeks if it continues! Plus the membership of the Greens has rocketed too.

Whether this is of any long term significance or not only time will tell but it must be a bit of a hollow victory especially for ardent status-quo unionists. They've had their views brushed aside by their unionist partners without getting their say in a referendum on the issue - and now see their polar opposites flourishing rather than skulking away as a beaten movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 03:10 AM

Musket the poll tax thing was a red herring. In lasw it is seemingly written off in Scotland after 20 years. No-one could be chased for it. Salmond took an Aberdeen councillor to bits on a live radio phone in over the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 05:31 AM

The problem with basing your analyses on the opinion polls, Allan, is that they got it wrong: the margin in the actual vote was quite a bit bigger than they predicted. That distorted the political judgements, in particular spurring the No change of policy. Now, rightly or wrongly founded, that change of policy was real, and should be delivered on if possible in the time between now and the election: and thereafter if the Conservatives remain in power.
But the real point of this meme is not what it means for Scotland, rather than what it means for the rest of the UK. The somewhat childish defering of the question until after the next election just lost them my vote, for one thing: they just don't get the message from 38 Degreees and Change that they can no longer treat their electorate with contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 05:46 AM

There is no demographic split. There are no pensioners, no young people, no indigenous Scots, no immigrants, no people born elsewhere in The UK.

The only demographic is people going into the polling booths with a vote. A vote on the basis they live in Scotland. And they voted. The vote was counted and the will of the democratic majority carries the day.

Full stop.

All this assuming people are gullible, thick, taken in by politicians? Works both ways. Either way, looking down on people and saying they were wrong isn't going to win any favours.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 06:59 AM

People ARE "taken in by politicians", I've met about a dozen who voted NO because they believed they were promised more powers for Scotland AND the "security" of remaining within the UK.
They now understand that they have been conned.

This does not assume that they are "thick", most of them are well educated business people, but they trusted the Westminster party leaders to tell the truth and were misled.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 07:02 AM

To state that there are no demographics in politics.... or health care.... is simplistic, misleading, and ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 07:03 AM

""People ARE "taken in by politicians""

Yes, some are- but, on all sides of any issue;)

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 07:04 AM

The victory for No though wasn't larger than most of the polls had shown. It was only in the fortnight before the vote that they got really tight which caused the unionists to come up with the Vow. Prior to that No had a pretty clear lead throughout and up until say the beginning of this year it was a huge lead. There is no saying what the result would have been had they not come up with the Vow. I take it some people must have been swayed by it? How many we can't be sure!

Musket has a point. Breaking it down into sections of the population is perhaps interesting but not that significant overall. Everyone's vote had the same value. The truth is if we look at it from a start point then if you class success by how many people you persuade then the Yes side won more people over but they didn't win enough to take the vote itself. That saying the core Yes movement is in a stronger position now than it was prior to the said referendum. On the other side possibly only the Scottish Tories have come out of it well. Seem to have maybe shored up and perhaps consolidated their vote. The Lib Dems and Labour are perhaps sitting less well for the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 07:46 AM

If all the votes are not considered equal by the losing side, then is it logical to assume they will never accept votes from those Scottish citizens who, for whatever reason that mattered to them, voted the other way a few weeks ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 08:25 AM

Spooky, that came out as guest.

I'm the only one here who tells bigots to get back in their hole...

Ed. That is indeed the case, reading some of the comments. A referendum was held. All sides were required by the enabling legislation itself to respect the outcome. We had an outcome.

Nobody is interested in whether someone accepts it or not. The point is, it happened and we have the same number of UK subjects now as before.

Nothing to see here.

Move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 09:16 AM

That came out as guest too.

Right. Try again.

Cookie seems to be crumbling eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 11:02 AM

(almost) regardless of the result, i think it is more interesting that there was a great deal of enthusiasm and democratic involvement than in any other recent political event. i'm sure we can all agree it would be a good thing if that enthusiasm is maintained and that the political leaders of all the main parties are seriously held to account for the promises they make before polling days. the alternative is to say 'well, politicians will say anything to get your vote - but we can't expect them to actually mean any of it' That would be to accept their cynicism and lies and to approve it - they will have succeeded in bringing us down to their level.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 11:15 AM

"...i'm sure we can all agree it would be a good thing if that enthusiasm is maintained.""

A good approach, unfortunately, in many of this type of situation, a small number show negative, sour-grape type of attitudes and choose to play the blame game, versus enthusiasm and respect for the choice of others- who merely see things differently than they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 02:20 PM

Only a matter of time chaps, There are a huge number of as yet unprocessed membership applications sitting in in SNP offices, final figures of over 150,000 members are being seriously considered

The SNP could very soon have the largest membership in the UK....then the cat would be really amongst the pigeons. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 02:37 PM

Very wide range of opinions amongst the former Yes supporters not least on how best to achieve their aims. Some wish to have a re-vote, others a referendum further down the road, while many also believe it's legitimate to seize power unilaterally with an SNP majority in Holyrood or even 50%+1 Scottish MPs at Westminster.

They'll all be fighting like ferrets in a sack.

However, no matter how large the membership, they are still only a minority of the electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 03:48 PM

Rather small minority. 3.5 million people voted and by voting accept the outcome or have no argument to put forward.

SNP are a political party. An independence referendum is nothing to do with party politics. The stance of SNP is that they need independence in order to carry out their programme.

Not much point in voting for them in an election then... A pity in some ways as their actual ideas are based on social justice and equality. Alex Salmond delivered marriage as a right for all despite the huge influence religious bigotry and a cultural Calvinist outlook has in Scottish society.

I fully agree that the debate sparked interest and awareness in politics. A pity then that neither side in the debate rose to the opportunity to show politics in a positive light.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 03:49 PM

SNP membership over 100,000 and rising.


From Huffington post,

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 04:48 PM

100 000's not even 2% of the population. This Yes campaign is simply a rehash of Scottish history, divided until it's too late, then forming a pointless coallition with more mouth than trousers. Probably why they wear kilts, to allow the hot air out.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 05:54 PM

I am delighted with the 100,000, but its going to be 150,000 very soon and I know what that means at party level.

What percentage of the UK population are members of any of the Westminster parties? :0)
What a ridiculous post guest, you really haven't a clue about what's happening up here, do you?

Alex Salmond brought a small fringe party from oblivion to become the Scottish Government in a few short years....almost single handed...against all odds. The most able politician of his generation.
He is still motivating our young people and when independence is achieved he will be there to take his rightful place.

The vow was a damned lie.....most of us knew it was a lie, but enough believed it to lose us the referendum......but there are more ways than one to skin a cat!

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 06:16 PM

I think that the idea that there is not much point in voting for the SNP in an election is way wide of the mark. To put it simply when asked which party do you believe will stand up for Scotland's interests within the UK the fact is that far more people trust the SNP to do that that any of the other parties.

As to the possibility of another referendum well Salmond himself said 'in his opinion' it should be settled for a generation. Sturgeon said circumstances would decide whether there would be another one which seems a pretty sensible and obvious thing to say. She believes it is a matter of when rather than if. Considering they were only just defeated in this referendum and their support is growing then it seems not too fanciful an idea to believe. Salmond pointed out that there was more ways to obtain independence than another referendum. This to me seemed to be in response to comments like Jack Straw's when he suggested Westminster should now settle it and make Scottish indepedence illegal. Salmond was only pointing out that the people of Scotland are sovereign not the Westminster parliament. I can't imagine there would be another vote unless the Yes side was clearly and consistently ahead in polls. One thing is clear though we were consistently told during the campaign that should we vote Yes there would never be any going back - the same was not claimed with the No vote. Never was it suggested that if Scotland voted No then it could never be independent!!

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 06:55 PM

I don't agree with much of what The SNP have done in Government particularly in relation to law and order issues, increased centralisation etc but I've got to admit they've done a very efficient job and many voters trust them. So it's highly likely, they'll continue to be The Gov after 2016.

Unfortunately, The Tories, Lab, Lib Dems etc haven't had that high a regard for Holyrood until recently. The SNP have always put up their "first team" for election whereas the other parties have focused on Westminster and seem to have relied on their "reserves" for Holyrood.
This is an attitude which will have to change.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 07:05 PM

The will of Westminster is sovereign.

Last month, the people of Scotland were asked if they wished to remain so, and they voted for the soverienty of Westminster.

Westminster legislation allows for sub committees. The same Westminster allowed an independence referendum. I can't see an argument for another, as the will of the residents of the constituencies that make up the area called Scotland have given their answer.

Responsible people are getting on with the future, not hankering for a past that never delivered for their ancestors anyway. The referendum may have been needed to clear the air but was damaging for business and in the final analysis, nothing else matters. The Scottish Parliament has enough on dealing with an aging population, health inequalities that make your eyes water, an overburdening public sector and huge social issues. It gets more per head of health and social care funding than most of the rest of The UK so politicians serve their population best by using it wisely, concentrating on the neefs of the people and do what they promised they would do.

Dreamers have the luxury of dreaming without the responsibility of dreams becoming true.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 07:24 PM

Musket, Scotland is a COUNTRY not an area.

While I don't want Independence, I have to say that I don't agree with all your arguments
either. We may get a little more out but we also put more in..... I'm happy to believe the figures which show this.

Ake wiĺ accuse me of sitti g on the fence again, no doubt.   ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 02:27 AM

Yes Johnny J Scotland is a country, a country that has had it's own Parliament since 1999, a Parliament that is responsible for the day-to-day running of the country. The elected Government of the country you refer to should put the best interests of the country first - Could you, Akenaton, or Allan Conn tell the rest of us why they singularly haven't done that?

You state that you thought that the SNP had "done a very efficient job and many voters trust them" - Hate to disillusion you but they have done a far from efficient job and instead of looking after the best interests of Scotland they have consistently put their own agenda and interests before those of the nation. They have consistently pursued "populist" policies and promoted "populist" give-aways that cannot ever be sustained in order to bribe the electorate. That simple fact is evident in the absolute shambles that was demonstrated throughout the referendum campaign when it was patently obvious that the Scottish Government and the SNP could answer even the most rudimentary questions related to finance, taxation, budgets, pensions, interest rates or currency. The SNP put the SNP first and the country second.

In the second of the televised debates Darling was deplorable, Salmond was wittering on about the NHS {Actually the Scottish NHS over which his government and the Scottish Parliament have full financial control}, job creation, foodbanks and the number of Scottish Children that were about to be "put-into-poverty" - Yet not one single person, Darling included, had the sense to ask Alex Salmond why, if these problems needed addressing, that his Scottish Government hadn't done anything about it - Correct me if I am wrong here but since it was created the Scottish Parliament has had the power to raise taxes in Scotland by 3% - Can you, Akenaton, or Allan Conn tell me why they have never made the slightest attempt to use those powers to solve what are perceived as being "Scottish problems"? The Scottish Parliament has failed in 15 years to use the devolved powers they already have can you tell us why, all of a sudden they are going to start using these powers and more now?

"Responsible people are getting on with the future, not hankering for a past that never delivered for their ancestors anyway. The referendum may have been needed to clear the air but was damaging for business and in the final analysis, nothing else matters. The Scottish Parliament has enough on dealing with an aging population, health inequalities that make your eyes water, an overburdening public sector and huge social issues. It gets more per head of health and social care funding than most of the rest of The UK so politicians serve their population best by using it wisely, concentrating on the needs of the people and do what they promised they would do.

Dreamers have the luxury of dreaming without the responsibility of dreams becoming true." - Musket

No truer words ever stated.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 02:30 AM

Apologies - "They have consistently pursued "populist" policies and promoted "populist" give-aways that cannot ever be sustained in order to bribe the electorate. That simple fact is evident in the absolute shambles that was demonstrated throughout the referendum campaign when it was patently obvious that the Scottish Government and the SNP could answer even the most rudimentary questions related to finance, taxation, budgets, pensions, interest rates or currency. The SNP put the SNP first and the country second."

Should of course read:

"They have consistently pursued "populist" policies and promoted "populist" give-aways that cannot ever be sustained in order to bribe the electorate. That simple fact is evident in the absolute shambles that was demonstrated throughout the referendum campaign when it was patently obvious that the Scottish Government and the SNP COULD NOT answer even the most rudimentary questions related to finance, taxation, budgets, pensions, interest rates or currency. The SNP put the SNP first and the country second."

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 02:56 AM

The Scottish Government is obliged to balance the books each year unlike Westminster and, so far, have managed this.
Savings and cuts obviously do have to be made elsewhere and there has been under investment in health generally, other areas of education, and local authorities have also been strapped for cash especially with the council tax freeze. As I say, there is quite a lot I disagree with but it doesn't mean that they are inefficient.

Also, I agree that the referendum has been a distraction and many Government policies have not been scrutinised by the electorate as their attentions have been elsewhere.

I should point out too that The SNP have only been in power for the last seven years and can't be held to account for everything which has occurred in the last fifteen years. The first term(2007), they were actually elected as a minority Government.

In my opinion, this is why further tax powers are important and SHOULD be used so as the Gov are responsible for raising the bulk of their own income. Then the electorate can choose(via the ballot box)and determine how this is spent. It may well be that they will still see free prescriptions(They don't actually cost an awful really as the majority of those on long term treatments, low income, over 60s never needed to pay anyway) and other of your so called "give aways" etc as a priority but, on the other hand, they might just prefer lower taxation.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 03:10 AM

Scotland is indeed a country. But the people, when asked did not wish it to be a sovereign country.

When using the word "country" it isn't a bad idea to recognise the two legally different interpretations of the word.

Either way, the SNP led legislative body is responsible for delivering many things SNP blame failures on Westminster for. The vote suggests that despite the low opinion some on here have of their neighbours, that many see that and dismiss SNP arguments to the contrary.

There is certainly work to be done in confidence rebuilding. A look at doctor vacancies in BMJ, covering UK and Eire shows that as of yesterday, over 24% of all consultant grade vacancies are in Scotland. By my reckoning, you would expect it to be 8%. I have very loose connections with Edinburgh medical school and they are concerned that their hitherto excellent reputation for student and house officer (foundation as they are now called) placements is compromised which leads to not being so high on the list of aspiring students. Mrs Musket was such a student and is involved over the road at The Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh, and they share the concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 04:42 AM

Teribus, your diatribe is simply "old politics" rehashed to suit your own views.....all the questions you ask were answered in the campaign, except those which had to be negotiated AFTER independence.
Salmond made it clear that there would be years of negotiations after a YES vote, and any sensible person should understand that.
All the YES campaign could do was give their VIEWS on what agreement the negotiations would lead to....as in the currency issue.

The shared currency was obviously the best option for everyone, but the NO campaign could hardly admit to that while trying desperately to keep the Union intact.

The devolved powers that Scotland has at present, like Health, is totally dependent on how much money is granted to Scotland by the Westminster exchequer....we do NOT have a blank cheque.

What is developing now in the "YES Scotland" campaign is apolitical, huge numbers of people from all parties coming together in support of one goal ....Scottish independence. It is being driven by the newly enfranchised young people and is NOT to be controlled by the SNP. It is a national movement, rather than a "Nationalist" one.

Of course the new strength of the SNP in financial terms and at the ballot box, will give additional impetus.

All arguments on the subject are academic, Scottish Independence is a reality now.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 06:23 AM

Reminds me of the title at least of the Si Khan song

What you do with what you've got.

Especially when Holyrood set the budget.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 08:15 AM

Akenaton and Johnny J having read through your waffle can you please explain to me in simple terms why no Scottish Government since 1999 (All of which have been "socialist" governments in nature) has ever used the tax raising powers they have always had to address what they perceive as being "Scottish problems".

The Referendum cost the Scottish tax payer ~£13.3 million.

Anymore for anymore?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 08:28 AM

Teribus...the devolved tax raising powers are very limited, and why should we punish our population further when they are already being robbed by Westminster.
Do you think we should increase taxes to subsidise what we lose in the Barnet formula?......Isn't that a bit like punishing the victims?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 08:36 AM

Perhaps this can clarify why tax rates have not been amended under SNP rule.

"No Scottish government has varied the income tax rate. The Parliament can only increase all the rates simultaneously or reduce all the rates simultaneously. This provides very little flexibility since the number of rates, the banding of them, and eligibility remain wholly UK responsibilities. Scotland also has no control over the tax thresholds.

For instance: the basic rate of income tax is 20%. The higher rate is 40%. The additional rate is 45%.

When the Scotland Act comes into effect in 2016, a Holyrood Government could choose to reduce the rates to 10%, 30% and 35%, or they could increase them to 30%, 50% and 55%. All three rates would have to move in tandem.

The Personal Allowance defines how much income you can earn before paying income tax. The tax threshold is £9,440 for 2013-14. This will still be controlled by Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 08:49 AM

Sorry slipped up there To tax the rich at a higher rate, would mean taxing the poor at a DISPROPORTIONALLY higher rate.

Anymore for anymore!

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 09:39 AM

"Akenaton and Johnny J having read through your waffle can you please explain to me in simple terms why no Scottish Government since 1999 (All of which have been "socialist" governments in nature) has ever used the tax raising powers they have always had to address what they perceive as being "Scottish problems"."

The 1999-2007 Gov wasn't socialist (Neither is the present SNP actually, it's social democratic) and was even a coalition with Lib Dems. At that time, Labour were also in power at Westminster and, presumably, Scottish Labour didn't want to be at odds with their English colleagues re taxation.

I can't speak for why The SNP Gov didn't use these powers...The Swinney One allowed them to expire
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11792876
but they were a minority Gov and would have had difficulty getting it agreed anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 03:51 PM

"Scottish independence is a reality now"

Can I tell him? 😂

The Scottish people rejected independence.

Easy

You'll be dead and buried before it comes up again. Which it probably won't as parochialism is old fashioned in sophisticated well educated countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 07:42 PM

that would be the sophisticated, well-educated countries where 60% of the population vote for 2 or 3 parties that can only manage to offer a politics that will only promise variants of what the daily mail approves of and then fail to deliver on that. and the rest think that neo-fascist idiots are a radical alternative? where liars, spivs or cheats are the only option. defeated, cynical countries where hope for anything better from our politicians is treated with scorn and derision. those sort of countries?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 03:19 AM

Rather intrigued by this:

"The 1999-2007 Gov wasn't socialist"

The 1999-2003 was a Labour/Lib Dem Coalition that Labour drove
59% turnout; 2.35 million voted; Labour gathered 908,392 votes; 33.64% of votes cast. Represents 23% of the electorate who voted for the Government they got in the Scottish Parliament - 41% of the electorate "couldna gie a f**k" leaving almost two-thirds of those who did vote voting against Labour.

The 2003-2007 was more of the same
49.4% turnout; 1.89 million voted; Labour gathered 659,879 votes; 29.3% of votes cast. Represents 17% of the electorate who voted for the Government they got in the Scottish Parliament - 50.6% of the electorate "couldna gie a f**k" again leaving two-thirds of those who did vote voting against Labour.

To say that either of these Governments were anything other than "socialist" in nature is ridiculous, to attempt to say that they were "social democrat" would be the greatest example of the "Tail-wagging-the-dog" ever seen.

2007-2011 Minority SNP Government
51.7% turnout; 2.02 million voted; SNP gathered 664,227 votes; 31% of votes cast. Represents 17% of the electorate who voted for the Government they got in the Scottish Parliament - 48.3% of the electorate "couldna gie a f**k" again leaving two-thirds of those who did vote voting against the SNP.

2011-Present Majority SNP Government
50% turnout; 1.99 million voted; SNP gathered 902,915 votes; 44.04% of the votes cast. Represents 22.6% of the electorate who voted for the Government they got in the Scottish Parliament - 50% of the electorate "couldna gie a f**k" again leaving 55% of those who did vote voting against the SNP.

(Odd that the supposed "landslide election win that brought the SNP to power in 2011 almost exactly mirrors the Independence Referendum result - Isn't it?)

But you see the pattern emerging - while the SNP may bang on about Westminster Parliaments not always delivering the Government Scotland wants - it can be clearly shown that large areas of Scotland never get the Government they naturally vote for - that is democracy - learn to live with it. The SNP's "populist" policies are driven by the imperative that they must win votes irrespective of whether or not such policies are "good" for the country, or in the country's best long term interest. The SNP have to be in power in order to call for a referendum to achieve independence for Scotland ( So all the division, rancor and harm done is only on the agenda of one single Scottish Party that the majority of people in Scotland never vote for or support).

Before we waste £13.3 million again the electorate of Scotland should be given a say on whether or not they want a referendum - a simple separate question on the Parliamentary ballot paper would determine that, and would remove any chance of only 22% of the electorate of Scotland putting the long term interest of the country in jeopardy.

On Tax Akenaton, IIRC when they introduced upper band of tax that only applied to the existing upper band all other rates stayed exactly the same as they had been. Besides if you do raise taxes right across the board the amount they are raised by would be less, and before you moan about the low earners being the worst hit - just remember that the vast majority of those low earners do not pay any income tax at all. Offhand I cannot remember precisely the percentage of wage earners in Scotland who receive more in benefits each year than they pay in tax, but I do recall that it is high.

To answer some of your other questions:
"why should we punish our population further when they are already being robbed by Westminster."

1: Because Governments are supposed to look to the national interests of the country and look after the population. If the elected Government of Scotland ("independent or not") cannot be arsed to act to address perceived problems, then can you tell me who should? That is the essence of Government - Providing Leadership ("Not a popularity contest, not merely delivering on political dogma") - addressing, overcoming and solving problems. Already robbed by Westminster??? - Populist SNP MYTH - I think the figures prove otherwise.

2: Income Tax Rates:
2014 to 2015 tax year
The current tax year is from 6 April 2014 to 5 April 2015.

Tax rate/Taxable income above your Personal Allowance
Basic rate 20%        - £0 to £31,865
Higher rate 40%        - £31,866 to £150,000
Additional rate 45% - Over £150,000

Example - Source gov.uk/income-tax-rates
You earn £35,000 of taxable income and your Personal Allowance is £10,000. You pay basic rate tax at 20% on £25,000 (£35,000 minus £10,000).

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 03:47 AM

Achmelvich. This sophisticated country you describe. Scotland? England? Wales? The other one? (Hearing their new health minister the other day, perhaps Northern Ireland fails the "sophisticated" test.)

People vote in a parliament of politicians who do what politicians do. I fail to see the difference?

In fact, Scotland has the advantage of all the policies and acts that actually affect people's lives have been passed by majority of left leaning parties for 15 years now, more if you include a couple of Blair years before.

And still they blame the Tories for their own failings 😂😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 04:48 AM

Young people have less grasp on the history, recent or long standing, and are more likely to favour novelty.

The consensus of the great and wise is just that. Experience brings an overview. Experience comes with age. It also brings caution and fear of irrational change. But that is why experience is valued. How do Yoof acquire that? Patronising is not the germain word, perspicacious more like. But then if you have an agenda any word that fits will do.

Why is personal debt so prevalent? Because people have to HAVE - look at the rise and rise of technology and who is doing the most buying? Borrowing is the way to buy.

As Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens said (allegedly) "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years" (yea yea - his father died when he was twelve. That's Sammy for you)

and FWIW Cameron agreed to the referendum wording but only after a lot of hard bargaining, it was not his choice, merely his acceptance. Ditto voting age.
But if you have an agenda, the above can be re-worded to suit your ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 05:55 AM

Teribus,

You are obviously a Tory if you believe that either Labour or The SNP are "socialists" these days.

Labour never really were and although they did and still do have members who believe in and espouse socialist views and ideals, they have always been a "broad church" albeit with a generally left of centre stance. The most radical Labour Governments were between 1945-1951 but even they believed in free market economy and had no ambition to set up a socialist state. All those since could easily have been labelled "Red Tories" even in the sixties and seventies but, of course, The Tories themselves were not as far to the right back then. "Butskillism" was regarded to be the political consensus in The UK at that time.

The SNP is also officially "left of centre" but by no means socialist either. While they may be left leaning in terms of welfare, they have different ideas regarding the economy, law and order etc. Salmond was once quoted as saying that he " "didn't mind the economic side" to ... Thatcher, but disapproved of the "social" implications of her policies ".


"(Odd that the supposed "landslide election win that brought the SNP to power in 2011 almost exactly mirrors the Independence Referendum result - Isn't it?)"

It's a little more complicated than that. Although the percentages are not that different   SNP in 2011(47%) YES in referendum(45), the make up is quite different. Many SNP voters voted NO in the referendum particularly those in SNP heartlands in The NE of Scotland etc. Those may have previously been Tory or Lib Dem voters in the past or have the potential to be so in the future. They would certainly not be "left wing".

However, many Labour voters from Central Scotland(and Dundee)...mainly Strathclyde region voted YES in the referendum in areas which were once Labour strongholds.

So while the total percentages may not be that dissimilar, the make up is not quite the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 04:31 PM

I believe it was Michael Foot who said "you can call me a liar, you can call me a fool. But do not insult my socialism."

Most members of the Labour Party would consider themselves socialists. Most members of The Conservative Party would say Labout Party members are socialists too.

When we have finished with pedantry, Scotland has had over 15 years of "not Conservative" rule on the issues that affect peoples day to day lives, so blaming the Tories is rather laughable.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 03:54 AM

"
When we have finished with pedantry, Scotland has had over 15 years of "not Conservative" rule on the issues that affect peoples day to day lives, so blaming the Tories is rather laughable."

We have had a few years of "Scottish Government" with Westminster holding the financial reins.
I have explained below why the limited powers afforded to the Scottish government are so ineffective, as well as holding the reins, Westminster makes the rules......like the one about all taxrates to move in tandem and no control over tax thresholds, thereby constraining any attempt to implement socialist economic policy.

Whether you agree with socialist policy is neither here nor there, under Westminster rule it is simply impossible to implement.

My son registers new SNP members in our area, the response to the referendum has resulted in quadrupling of membership most being between 16 and 40.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 05:32 AM

I wonder if he heard from SNP communications after I emailed them with your details, claiming Salmond doesn't believe in his own policies?

You haven't explained anything other than some propaganda that you are thick enough to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 07:36 AM

Perhaps you require a visit to the optician Ian?

"No Scottish government has varied the income tax rate. The Parliament can only increase all the rates simultaneously or reduce all the rates simultaneously. This provides very little flexibility since the number of rates, the banding of them, and eligibility remain wholly UK responsibilities. Scotland also has no control over the tax thresholds.

For instance: the basic rate of income tax is 20%. The higher rate is 40%. The additional rate is 45%.

When the Scotland Act comes into effect in 2016, a Holyrood Government could choose to reduce the rates to 10%, 30% and 35%, or they could increase them to 30%, 50% and 55%. All three rates would have to move in tandem.

The Personal Allowance defines how much income you can earn before paying income tax. The tax threshold is £9,440 for 2013-14. This will still be controlled by Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 09:53 AM

( akenaton and musket - have you ever considered starting your own private thread, you could always choose different names for all the other ones)....anyway..... the recent referendum in scotland gave a great boost to participation in the democratic process - surely a good thing whichever way the scots voted. what was also evident was a widespread mistrust of the ridiculous westminster pantomime. is there a chance of any such positive developments south of the border as we approach the next general election? why should scots be able to understand our political process better than the english, where the only 'alternative' seems to be UKIP? surely we can do better than that?
(as interesting to some as the past tax raising powers of holyrood may be, it doesn't shed a great deal of light on how the rest of the UK can move forward positively)

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 12:29 PM

Well achmelvich, I don't really think the rest of the UK has very much going for it, the encouragement of cheap labour from abroad instead of realistic retraining programmes for our young folks, has led to a nightmarish racial landscape in England.
No thought was given to the long term effects of multiculturalism, and lack of integration.

Wales has very little to contribute the population being left to rot after the demise of engineering and mining.

NI is still a swamp of militant Unionism and resentful republicanism.

Sorry....they are all basket cases. Only Scotland has much to be positive about, and we have been thwarted for now by a posse of liars.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 06:50 PM

"local authorities have also been strapped for cash especially with the council tax freeze."

Not by any means all, in fact I suspect not many!

My own County Council is cutting services, while sitting on over twenty million pounds idle liquid dosh, earmarked, they say, "For a rainy day".

Newsflash! It's been pissing down for a couple of years, but you would rather have a dig at the government than do YOUR job!

This is representative of the mindset of those to whom some people suggest devolved powers should be given.

As for Scotland, I'm sure that would be King Alex will still be pushing to take Scotland in the direction he wants, and therefore an English parliament relieved of all who serve constituencies in Scotland is essential, and as soon as possible.

The Welsh and Northern Irish don't bother themselves with purely English matters, but the Scots, who decry rule from Westminster, still insist upon voting on such.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 07:27 PM

Troubadour,

I don't wish you disclose any information which might affect your privacy but I think it might be relevant whether or not you live in Scotland...... re your last post.

Council tax has been frozen here since 2007. While they are compensated by The Scottish Gov, they don't have the same freedom to raise extra money themselves. So difficult choices have to be made at local gov level.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 07:58 PM

And, now, for something completely different:


unrelated 



The Top of the Pyramid: The Rothschilds, the British Crown and the Vatican Rule the World - See more at: http://truthalerts.com/the-top-of-the-pyramid-the-rothschilds-the-british-crown-and-the-vatican-rule-the-world-2/#sthash.r3D5Jwp6.dpuf

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 08:12 PM

akenaton i can't agree with you about what you see as the (negative) 'long term effects of multiculturalism' . this is something the english are (also) pretty good at - just ask -eg the italians, irish, caribbeans and scots how well it's going. and the asian folk would be having a much better time were it not for our repulsive media and shit stirring politicians.
there are a few towns with racial tensions but the people are ok -it's the shape shifting lizards that have caused any'nightmarish racial landscape' with their horrible newspapers and scapegoating media messages. and the zombies who buy the daily mail and approve of the whole westminster circus - a least they are(were) our own feckless eejits. shoudn't generalise but plenty of england also rocks and much of scotland is shit, nothing would drag me from cumbria to lanarkshire for example, and bristol and brighton should be in scotland. show them how to party without chips and annoint the greens as the party of choice for all of us who need to make them count. we raise our flags over the festivals, boris gets his cannons out , anyway -miliband, cleggand cameron your time has gone. now wander off into the woods and save your mates from slaughtering wild animals and birds. es

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 03:26 AM

Multiculturalism is something Scotland is proud of. The SNP shout it from the rooftops in fact.

They can sideline the bigots whilst collecting membership fees from them. Neat trick 😎

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 06:13 AM

There are bigots in Scotland just as there are everywhere but it doesn't do to almost suggest people are bigoted because they are SNP members. The stance of the SNP itself is that when they are talking about Scottish people they are talking about the people normally living here in Scotland - regardless of where they originated from. The vast bulk of SNP supporters take that line too. A party can't legislate for what every individual member of the public says online etc!!

There are shadowy racist groups in Scotland - just as there are elsewhere - but those of the nationalist variety are only tiny groupings of no consequence! Members of Siol nan Gaidheal (Seed of the Gael) were expelled from the SNP decades ago. They are a tiny organisation though and the bigoted groups to worry about do tend to be unionist orientated. As we saw in George Square several weeks ago.

I was shocked by one comment earlier this year here in Kelso. In the aftermath of the accident at the Jim Clarke Rally some neighbours said to me "I hope the people killed are from down south?" I kind of know what they meant in that they hoped it was no-one they knew - however to specifically say they hoped it was someone from down south shocked me. But no they aren't nationalists. At least not Scottish nationalists supporters. They are the only people locally with UKIP posters in their windows.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 06:20 AM

Troubadour do you have some evidence that it is only the Scots who vote on English matters? The fact that it is only the Scots, or at least mainly the Scots, who the English media moan about doesn't mean it is only the Scots voting! In fact the SNP are one party who on principle don't vote on English only matters! So on that point surely you should be applauding them?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 06:28 AM

As to the tax issue! Coincidentally the first new Scottish tax in over 300 years was announced yesterday. The Scottish Government's new Land & Building Transactions Tax means that from next April most people buying properties over £125K are going to be better off.
I was just working out an example based on a purchase price of £270K. Under the present Stamp Duty the buyers would pay 3% of the total purchase price amounting to £8,100. When the new tax comes into force next April they would pay no tax on the initial £135K; then 2% of the next £115K up to £250K which amounts to £2,300; then 10% for the £20K over £250K which amounts to £2,000. So £4,300 tax in total. A saving of £3,800.
Most purchasers here in the Borders, both movers and first time buyers, will benefit - with the cut off point where the new tax starts to cost you more being £325,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 06:44 AM

Allan. You realise of course I was referring to one card carrying member, Akenaton. I know damned well he isn't representative of SNP and they stand for everything he despises, such as equality, social justice and fairness for all. SNP pushed through gay marriage for crying out loud. They are not bigoted at all.

They do manage however to get ignorant bigots to think they are for them also and seem happy to see them as members. Interesting. Akenaton claimed on this thread that Salmond doesn't give a shit for gay people and he appeases anybody of a liberal outlook but he is more in line with Akenaton's views. Akenaton also claims to have met Salmond and gained that impression.

I sent a link to his claims to SNP communications email address, together with his real name and location. Either he is a liar or Salmond is a fraud, it seems...


(I sent a link to his claims to The Scotsman too, just for a laugh.)

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 07:27 AM

Point taken - sorry! Misread it as a wider sweep. Personally I don't think Salmond follows the populist line on that. I don't think equality for gays or telling people the country needs more immigration are typically ways to gain lots of support. There could be a third scenario other than the Ake is a liar or Salmond is a fraud idea! Ake may simply have gotten the wrong impression.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 07:45 AM

In recent years, the SNP has styled itself as a left of centre social democratic party which also happens to believe in Independence.

It wasn't always thus, of course, although while in Government they have adopted a pragmatic and moderate approach.

However, their supporters are extremely diverse and they attract votes from ex or natural Tory voters in rural areas and disillusioned Labour supporters in The Central Belt. There are also many other pro Independence/separatist factions who will vote for them as they see them as the best route to achieve their aims.

So, inevitably, there will be many supporters with some quite extreme and even bigoted views and quite a few "nut jobs" into the bargain. The increase in membership may well lead to a lot of in fighting within the party.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 08:11 AM

I'm not sure that the increase will lead to in fighting at the higher level within the party. Maybe at a local level yes as new some new members make a mark on the ground whilst existing ones defend their place perhaps - but that is maybe even exaggerated. In my experience (limited though it is) many of the new members aren't really political animals as such. Just people who were at first inspired by the campaign, then disappointed by the result, who just now want to continue showing some kind of support. Kind of a good problem to have. The other parties would give their eye teeth to have the kind of membership in Scotland that the Nats now have. If we are to believe the stats then their membership is now standing at somewhere between 25 to 30 times the size of the Lib Dem membership in Scotland and perhaps approaching as much as double what their membership is in the UK as a whole !

I think the defeat itself may have led to a fracturing of the party but the way it came so close along with the holding up of support shown in voting intention polls and the massive unprecendented surge in membership has seem them just as unified and possibly more confident than they were pre campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 10:19 AM

Of course he has the wrong impression....

On just about everything judging by his posts on Mudcat.

My comments re SNP are genuine, but I can't let it pass without agreeing the SNP has the word "nationalist" in it. I can't help but be wary of anybody wanting to discard other influences in order to take control. "Nationalists" tend to have a rather ugly side to their character.

They may have had better early support if they used the word "independence" instead of "nationalist." It gives them a whiff of UKIP and BNP ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Paddy
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 03:59 AM

It's the Scottish National Party, a party representing the people who inhabit the nation of Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 05:24 AM

No Paddy. They represent those who vote for them. They serve the inhabitants of Scotland. In terms of whether they are representative of Scotland is another matter after their whole reason for existing was emphatically declined by the people.

Their constitution speaks of their "nationalist agenda" by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 06:33 AM

Out of interest, Scotland is a country using historic definition, but it is not a nation as it fails on six out of the eight tests for nationhood. Your "nation of Scotland" is an oxymoron.

In addition, the democratic will of the people living there did not wish for nationhood when it was offered last month.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 06:54 AM

By the way, did I mention that Scotland rejected independence?

It was in all the newspapers apparently. David Dimbleby did a programme on the telly about it.



👎

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 07:18 AM

I believe Uncle Alex(Salmond) said

"It is important to say that our referendum was an agreed and consented process and Scotland has by a majority decided not, AT THIS STAGE, to become an independent country."

(Emphasis mine)

His implication seems to be that we will be convinced eventually. He may or may not be correct but it's just as possible that things could go the other way too. It's a fallacy on the part of The Yes side to assume that the only reason a majority voted "No" was because they were, as yet, unconvinced("Deferred YES supporters" as opposed to Nos...Salmond said). They have to accept that many people want to be part of The UK regardless as they actually believe in The Union.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 07:26 AM

People who voted No weren't on whe whole voting to declare that Scotland wasn't a nation. They were deciding whether their nation should stay inside a wider union or not.

Neither was the result emphatic! An emphatic win would have been had the UK gvt and unionist parties carried the result easily on their own terms as stated at the start of the campaign. Prior to the campaign the polls all showed that of the three choices (independence, the status quo, or some form of enhanced devolution) the latter choice was the most popular amongst Scots. The Scottish gvt was willing to have said third choice on the ballot paper but the UK gvt vetoed it saying the question would only be straight in or out question and that any talk of whether there should be enhanced devolution would be after the vote as it was a separate issue.

In the weeks before the vote itself the UK gvt threw in the towel on this stance and came to the conclusion that it couldn't risk trying to win on that stance as the polls had dramatically closed. So suddenly a vote No was not a vote for no change as further devolution was now guaranteed and not up for discussion only. So hardly emphatic! Actually if you have 20 people in a room who voted then 11 voted No and 9 voted Yes. Only one person would need to change their minds to make it absolutely even. I was speaking to a Canadian couple who were at our music session just the day after the vote. They made it clear they thought that No had been the proper choice - but at the same time they were astonished that the UK wide media was portraying it as a decisive win when it was so close.

As to the word Nationalist well I understand that in England the word has been tainted by the politics of the BNP etc however it doesn't carry the same association here as the first party you think of when using the word is the SNP so it doesn't have the same negative association. And to tell you the truth my first reply was because I thought you were attacking nationalists as a whole - then you said you were only having a go at one card carrying nationalist - but now again you say "nationalists tend to have a rather ugly side to their character" so again you are pointing your finger not at one person but at a big chunk of the Scottish population.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 07:46 AM

One more voter than the losers, that is emphatic in law.

Of course, far more than that rejected independence. Their reasons were... actually as many reasons as there were voters. And every reason is as valid as the next. Funnily enough to say they were gullible, as SNP seem to be claiming just winds them up.

Small point, but calling it a nation when it isn't might ease the blow but kind of lowers the intelllectual impact of your posts.. It used to be a nation but there again, so did Danelaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 10:14 AM

Well, now we know - Gideon and John Worthington Foulfellow don't believe in democracy enough to make a stand for England, and Millie wants to force Scottish Rule on us.
With idiots like this in charge, they actually make Farrago a realistic proposition. No wonder the population don't believe in politicians any longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 10:39 AM

"" Scotland (nor Wales, nor Northern Ireland, nor England itself) is not an independent country nor is it a State. However, Scotland is most certainly a nation of people living in an internal division of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.""


Scotland is a nation of people  

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 11:54 AM

Scotland fails all but two of the tests for nationhood. I suppose you could google it for details.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 03:14 PM

i can't imagine that anyone really thought that when the 3 main westminster parties promised further significant powers for a 'no' voting scotland that this would arrive promptly with all parties agreeing. i was initially impressed in a despairing way with the cynicism and ruthlessness of the establishment - but i really thought they could come with something less shambolic than this. does anyone have any faith in the westminster farrago

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 04:13 PM

This spells the beginning of the end for the Union....roll on the election.....SNP to sweep the boards.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 04:39 PM

Can't help thinking labour is putting the party before the country to the detriment of us all

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 05:36 PM

""Scotland fails all but two of the tests for nationhood.""

Whose specific tests do you refer to? It seems kinda time consuming to conduct a search through google sites to understand what you refer to, when you must know.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 08:06 PM

A positive economic asset base and stable income - nope
A political mandate to stand independently - nope
The ability to defend its policies in the international arena, by diplomacy backed by a military element - nope
A portfolio of International Treaties - empty
A political structure capable of planning fowards successfully more than a fortnight - nope
A civil service capable of administering its needs - nope
A central bank capable of implementing fiscal policy - nope (RBS and BoS both made it clear they'd head for the UK, and Clydesdale is already owned by the Australians)
The two pluses are presumably the NHS and Education functions, but even there they are dependent on finance

And that still depends on a further vote, which the UK will not allow them in this generation: the European precedent of continual referenda until you get the result you want won't wash here.

And now Scotland is suddenly realising that the attempt came at a price, win or lose. That was entirely predictable, but the fishmongers Salmond and Sturgeon were as ever so full of themselves they failed to realise it. So what did we see in Parliament today? SNP turning on Scottish Labour, who blame the Conservatives for being democrats. Twas ever so with the Scots, give one real power and he makes a third-world dictator look moderate: not for nothing did Idid Amin style himself as the Last King of Scotland. Every time they got near to doing something serious as a nation, the top men would start squabbling like a bunch of sulky schoolboys and it would collapse in faction, and it's clear nothing but nothing has changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 03:41 AM

In all the confusion and political shenanigans, there is one single statement of fact that all discussions are based on.

The people of Scotland wish to remain part of The United Kingdom.

No treachery by SNP or anybody can be allowed to fetter the wishes of the people as per the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Paddy
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 03:53 AM

You're so wrong. English votes for English Laws will be agreed in November when Haig calls for Parliament to pass legislation ... Then Scottish MPs will be seen to be second class and if Labour is in power their power will be restricted. If Scotland is granted 100%income tax powers, they will not be able to vote on the budget so once again the whole shenanigan will start again? This time it will have been caused by English Nationalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:00 AM

Many will disagree with me here but I believe the majority of No voters weren't particularly interested in extra powers and I don't think this is what clinched the result in the campaign.

It's doubtful that YES were ever ahead in the campaign. Only a couple of polls actually showed them ahead and only by a couple of points. The establishment did panic though but they didn't have any real need.

Of course, the polls were very close but this was more to do with the lackluster and negative campaign by Better Together in general as opposed to the ultra positive "Utopian" promises from The Yes side.

If anything, the offer of extra powers carried the risk that voters might regard it as a sense of desperation on the part of Unionist politicians and just decide that they would be as well going "the whole hog" and go for full Independence anyway. After all, the offering of increasingly larger concessions by the Better Together politicians, was hardly a sign of faith in the status quo or much of an endorsement for The Union.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:03 AM

English Nationalism sparked by Scottish: you cannot ask one group if they want in or out and not ask the others, which is where the mistake lay. Now they have opened Pandora's Box, they have to live with the consequences. You can gag some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but you cannot gag all of the people all of the time.

Nor has the SNP taken its responsibility for its failure, Salmond may be going, but Sturgeon steps up and nothing else changes.

What model do we need? Exterior relations at a National level, split as Treasury, Foreign Office, Defence and Foreign Aid, all else at regional, I think. London makes the money, yet the regions seem to think they have a divine right to spend it: that may become a sizeable sticking point, not least with the former Treasurer of the Conservative Party, Paul Judge, becoming Lord Mayor of the City in November.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:18 AM

John, regardless of whether the "VOW" affected the result(I am of the opinion that it did), it was still a solemn promise made by the three Westminster Party leaders, and it has already been reneged upon, by linking to regional devolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:48 AM

It will still have to go ahead in the end and, preferably within the timescale, regardless of whether or not there is agreement about English devolution. However, English MPS are still entitled to talk about such things.

Of course, whatever we get will not satisfy everybody and certainly not the more staunch members of The 45 but it will still be a majority who counts.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 09:34 AM

Incidentally, just as an aside.. a straw in the wind, in 2011 SNP were elected partly on the strength of the second choice question "Alex Salmond for First Minister". So is there a mandate for Nicola Sturgeon?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 01:12 PM

Electing partly on a strength has no basis in law. That is a media concern, not a law one. To be fair to Sturgeon, the law dictates you vote for an MP to represent your constituency. Ministers are decided by the elected members. Hence Gordon Brown was legally sound as Prime Minister, as the electorate does not choose ministers.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 01:23 PM

The second choice vote was for List MSPs. So they didn't vote for any particular candidate. The choice they had on the ballot paper was Vote "Alex Salmond for First Minister".

It's true they would still have been the largest party as regards directly elected MSPs in 2011 and would probably still have been able to form a Government but, without the list MSPS(Around another 20), they couldn't have had a majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Paddy
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 05:14 PM

Gordon Brown has been dressed up like a kipper and is trying to show he will save the Union AGAIN by asking the Scottish people to accept less so they are still reliant on Westminster. Cameron was too clever for him. Looking at the Command Paper it is surprising how many taxes Laboir wants Scotland NOT to have. The Command Paper is online and a look at page 19 I think will shock a lot of NO voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 02:30 AM

You know, what gets me is the idiotic assumption that there are people who think that without the last minute panic by the Westminster party leaders, that there would have been a yes majority vote.

Some people really do think that the electorate in Scotland are thick. Everybody who voted to remain in The UK must think SNP and sundry other yes campaigners reckon they were suckered in by politicians.

You can see where Salmond supporters get that idea. By being suckered in by politicians.

😹😹😹

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 04:30 AM

surely the establishment shared the 'idiotic assumption' that they needed to make an apparently generous last minute offer or the vote may have been lost to them. whether or not this offer did swing the vote to No is largely immaterial - if you make a Vow you have to honour it. the current attempt to interpret the result selectively and legislate for narrow party advantage seems calculated to create further divisions in the union and encourage the scots to turn away from westminster - (f**k thae squabbling numpties, let's just go for it!)
In fact, is this just another stage in the plan of getting the scots to leave the union - there have been so many crass and cynical errors by the better together lot that it all seems to look like a deliberate self-defeating strategy. (can't you jocks take the hint?)

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 04:56 AM

Politicians do come over as idiots, especially telling two and a half million people they are gullible fools!

😹

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 04:57 AM

The Scottish leaders.. Lamont, Davidson, and Rennie had already endorsed extra powers in June. So, it wasn't a last minute thing.

It was certainly given extra focus in the last few days whether through panic or otherwise.

Funny, how it is only the No voters who have been apparently misled or duped. Could the same thing not be said about some of The 44.7?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Paddy
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 05:31 AM

It's the 55% who are now wondering what's going on. Brown accusing Cameron of setting a Tory trap and all three leaders plus Alastair Darling not bothering to turn up for the debate. And today Brown is given another chance to "save the Union". it's now a fight to save Labour as the Tories couldn't give a tinker's cuss anymore .... heads they win, tails Labour loses.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 05:37 AM

It's the 44.7% who seem to be making the biggest noise about it.

Most No voters can take or leave the "extra powers". They'd rather The Scottish Government learned to use those powers they already have properly, in the first instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Paddy
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 10:01 AM

Johnny J does not have his ear to the ground as it's the NO voters who are complaining about Cameron's hi-jacking of the result without mentioning his plans for EVAL beforehand. Gordon Brown is raging and he is obviously a NO voter. Most YES voters look on in amazement and with some degree of schadenfreude at the NO mob fighting among themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 10:46 AM

But what about the majority who have made it clear that

A). They have decided (no wishing necessary) to remain British subjects.

B). They want politicians to get on with health, education, welfare, enterprise and junketing trips to Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Paddy
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 11:30 AM

The majority includes Gordon Brown who sees the Conservative party really want to split the Union. This time the blame will not be on Cameron, he saw to it that Brown saved his skin, but EVAL will spike the Labour guns. I'm surprised the NO camp cannot see that ... the Union is f####ed and Scottish Independence has only been delayed.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 11:39 AM

Me? I listen to what the people of Scotland said they wanted and have got.

Who knows, might even signal sympathy amongst the well heeled for the conservative and unionist party, as they are there to preserve the union.

Sturgeon can hopefully get on with what Westminster have devolved responsibility for rather than blaming Westminster for their own failings in government.

Its what the people want..