BS: The murder of Sarah Everard

Subject: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 07:02 PM

Sarah Everard was a beautiful young woman who, last March, was abducted, under false pretences, by a policeman, who drove her to a remote area, raped her, strangled her then burned her body. Today, he's been sentenced to die in prison.

I'm not wanting to rattle on about the Met Police and their failings, etc. That's for somewhere else. My reason for raising this is that, as a bloke, I feel rotten. This fellow has besmirched male humanity in this country. He's made women feel unsafe on our streets. It feels useless at this time to bleat about how we blokes are not all the same (we're not, but how irrelevant that seems just now). I get all the arguments about the right of women to feel safe on our streets. But I think that we blokes have got a massive part to play. Male culture simply has to change. I can't currently get my head round this, but begod it's bloody important. Discuss...

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 07:28 PM

.. and he has a wurzel accent like Fred West..

AS if we SW folks don't have enough stigma to live with...


A life time in a select population which don't tolerate sex offenders and coppers,
might guarantee his arsehole will have to get used to being stitched back together
after frequent rough justice punishment... ???

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 08:03 PM

I'm not that bothered any more about what happens to him. That's done and dusted, thank Christ. But this case has struck a real note. It's about trust in coppers, too right. But it's also about trust in blokes...

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 09:47 PM

I read about that for the first time today. How awful - he was caught on CC-TV as he abused his office in a way that would possibly have gotten him the death penalty in some states in the US.

Police Officer Sentenced to Life in Prison for Murder of Sarah Everard
The extent to which Ms. Everard’s attacker wielded his powers as a police officer in the horrific attack has prompted a wave of new calls for reform in the London police department.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 03:44 AM

Oh Steve, if you were sitting here beside me I'd give you a great big hug! What a lovely post, you've expressed everything I've been thinking about this terrible case, and about women's safety in general.
I've just read that the monster's colleagues thought he was a really fun chap and nicknamed him 'The Rapist' even before this murder. Can you believe it???!!!
I know that all men aren't like this, and I'm lucky enough to know several genuinely good men, but there is indeed a 'lads' culture' in which women are seen as objects for what is infuriatingly called 'banter', and that it certainly is not safe for any woman to walk alone outside, in towns, cities or the countryside. This is disgraceful.
As you know, I've done 'Prison Visiting', and rest assured this jailed copper will be attacked at every opportunity by the other inmates, unless he goes 'on the numbers' - an expression meaning taking the option of having a cell on a special Wing (isolation).
God forgive me, but I actually hope he commits bloomin' suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 05:56 AM

I agree with all the above comments and although I don't wish to detract from the message, it should also be added that some organised religious groups need to stop being allowed to decide what a woman can and cannot do. To say that a woman must dress modestly or not be alone with a man in case she tempts him is putting the failings of men on the shoulders of women. It not only restricts the freedoms of women but gives some men a feeble excuse for their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 06:55 AM

Yes yes Dave! There are several such cultures around, and I detest all of them. Fortunately, my Muslim husband and I reached an understanding on this one long before we got married. But his poor sisters back in Africa are treated like disempowered slaves. (FGM, subservience etc) Luckily, they live in a city, and with the internet are gradually becoming more independent and in charge of their own lives.
I reckon this is the decade when all these attitudes towards women can be reassessed and big improvements made. I don't 'hate men' but I do believe that males need to examine their inner motivations and behaviour. The key is 'mutual respect', which applies to any group, males, females, race, age, and so on.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 07:32 AM

Steve, Dave, I completely agree with every word in your posts. I have nothing to add, my thoughts on this dreadful issue have already been eloquently expressed in your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 07:39 AM

To follow what Dave said, an aspect of this I find detestable is the "advice" I sometimes hear about how women should protect themselves: don't go out alone, don't go out late at night, always plan your route, watch how you dress, avoid unlit areas, if stopped by a policeman always ask for his credentials, and all the rest of it. All that reveals to me is that we have a bloody big problem with MEN. I should think that most women are fearful enough about being out on the streets that they don't need to be patronisingly given that sort of advice, and why SHOULD they have to behave as though the streets are permanently filled with predatory men anyway? That approach is coming at the issue from completely the wrong angle. I don't pretend to know the answers to this but I really hope that this horrid incident will be a game-changer and that it doesn't just turn into yet another nine-day news wonder.

Two other points: first, Sarah Everard DID see his police credentials, and it's my guess that one hundred percent of people put in that situation would have been convinced by that policeman. So much for the specious advice to women to ask for credentials. Second, Cressida Dick needs to do a rapid disappearing act.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Charmion
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 07:59 AM

Here in Canada, we have a murderer of that class — Russell Williams, who was a colonel in command of the largest air base in the country. He kidnapped, raped and killed two women before he was caught, after a long career of creeping, peeping and snatching underpants off clotheslines. One of his victims was a corporal under his command. Only incest murder is worse.

The capture of Russell Williams is down to a brilliant detective of the Ontario Provincial Police, who secured a full confession leading to a guilty plea and a life sentence. But the shock of it still reverberates through the Canadian Armed Forces. In my last gummint job, the staff officer in the cubicle next to mine was reduced to tears at the news; Russell Williams had been his previous boss, and had given him the most glowing performance evaluation of his career. He says now that the very existence of that man’s name in his personnel record feels like a taint.

Yes, blokes in general really should check their privilege and attitudes with respect to women’s right just to be as they wish to be in the world. But some evildoers have such excellent camouflage that the rest of us can be forgiven for not spotting them as the predators they are.

That said, the killer of Sarah Everard must have showed his true colours at some point if the other guys in his unit nicknamed him “the Rapist”. Pity they didn’t realize that their eyes were not deceiving them, and that it was no joke.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 08:00 AM

The Sarah Everard case has overshadowed somewhat the recent brutal and violent stranger-murder on the streets of the young teacher Sabina Nessa. A number of other women have been murdered in streets and parks in recent months. That's not to speak of the current epidemic of domestic violence against women. I don't exactly feel proud to be a man just now.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 08:15 AM

It's true that women are always warned about the 'dangers' of going out alone, being followed, dressing 'inappropriately', using quiet byways etc. Totally unacceptable, and should not be needed. Children too being warned about 'Stranger Danger'. It's a jungle out there, and it jolly well shouldn't be.
My feisty niece in Edinburgh has reached a high level of karate, and knows how to defend herself, but I dread to think she may need her skills one evening while out walking alone.
Even in our tranquil rural village, my neighbour's daughter of eighteen has to walk their little dog with her mother following behind at a distance, 'just in case'. And there has been a strange man in a car following children coming off the school bus. The (male) Police have refused to 'speak' to him as they say he isn't committing a crime. But we are all keeping watch on him and tell him to ...er...go away, which he does, but comes back another day.
Men men men - why? why? why? Is it testosterone? Or the Lads Culture?

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 09:53 AM

Sadly, Eliza, I don't know what it is but I doubt it is chemical. I have the same feelings and urges as other men, I think, although at approaching 70 they have lessened! Certainly as a younger man there were times when it was a good job it was not a crime to fantasise :-) I was brought up in the era when sexism, and racism for that matter, was acceptable. Yet for all that the very thought of taking advantage of anyone by force repulses me. Why some men act on those base impulses is beyond my limited reasoning :-(

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 10:10 AM

Same here precisely, Dave. It seems to have a lot more to do with some men regarding women as commodities/objects/playthings rather than human beings with feelings, and they don't like reluctance to be shown.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 12:31 PM

Nail on the head, I think, Steve. Anyone who treats people as a commodities or objects has a screw loose in my opinion. Sadly it seems to be our gender that suffer the most from that affliction.

I can think of a certain prime minister who would be the exception but let's not get political :-D

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 01:27 PM

Women/children in unsafe situations isn't by any means a new thing. In the early sixties, when my sister was eleven, she and a friend were playing in the woods near our home when a man appeared and exposed himself to them. He had a big black dog with him, and the girls ran like hell. My father contacted the Police, but the man was never found.
I used to go up to London with my two friends in my early teens, and once on the Tube we noticed that a man sitting opposite had his ... er... well, bits out on view. We shouted out to the other passengers and pointed at him, and he flew off the train at the next station.
Obviously neither of these two creeps was mentally normal. But we never saw a woman 'exposing' herself.
I know so many very gentle, kind and respectable men. Ones I would trust with my life. But there are some monsters around and they can be very dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 07:13 PM

Add in the incels who regard women as the enemy
to be defeated and taken without mercy...

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 07:16 PM

"All women know they are prey – and that no one with any authority seems to care
Marina Hyde". (in todays Guardian)

Please google this. Sorry, I'm useless at links. This, to me anyway, is a superb article which sums up the problem we have with the way we men - but maybe not just men... view and treat women. It took me two hours to cut my over-long grass this afternoon, a window of opportunity in a whole bunch of wet weather (I do have half an acre of grass...) and I seethed about this horrid event for the whole two hours (it sort of made the job pass more easily, which wasn't what I really wanted...) We've had stuff on the telly tonight about the grooming and exploitation of teenage girls. I'm not putting it too strongly when I say I can't bloody bear that stuff. I mean, what's up with us. And what I don't bloody want to hear from our sick politicians and police commissioners is that "we have to learn lessons." No we don't. We have to DO something. Grr...

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 07:36 PM

Yes something does need to be done but what exactly?

Marina Hyde's article is much like the comments she is complaining about. Solutions are much harder and are not likely to be quick unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 07:58 PM

Yebbut we are at the point at which we desperately don't know what to do. I started this thread with a post that ended "discuss", remember? I personally can't come up with anything remotely resembling an answer. To be honest, I need to hear from women here....

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 03:34 AM

Yet that in itself may be putting the onus on women, Steve:-(

How about a parallel campaign by men and for men? I thought at first of something along the lines of "You're safe with me". Trouble is poor Sarah thought she was safe with a policeman. I can see that some would use it to gain trust for malicious purposes. I came to the conclusion that it has to start with education at an early age. From the moment they can understand lads need to be taught that women are not objects for their pleasure. Going back to my earlier point we need to rid the world of the teachings that say the opposite. It will be tough to do where education is governed by extreme religious sects but maybe by starting at our own front doorsteps it will eventually happen.

Much like mowing your lawn :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 03:52 AM

Shifting of onus not intended, Dave. It's just that, with the exception of Eliza, this is turning into a lament among some blokes...

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 04:01 AM

Have you ever spoken with women about this subject?

A big problem is that there appears to be little discussion between the sexes on this subject. I have spoken with some on this matter after they brought the subject up.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 04:12 AM

As with most 'social' problems, it's a good idea first to investigate the causes. There could be many reasons for certain attitudes among men towards women:-
Hormones (testosterone in all mammals affects behaviour)
Culture (All men 'must' be seen to be tough, macho, emotionless, full of 'phwoar', always up for sex/a cheap thrill)
Religious background ('all women are inferior, created by God to serve and pleasure men')
Sport (in the past, men were strong and sporty, most women were tender and weak)
Aggression - to defend their territory and their families (two world wars demonstrated this attitude).
All these things would be extremely difficult to erase from the male psyche.
Punishment (including life-for-life sentencing, or even the Death Penalty, which I don't support) doesn't change attitudes, it just wreaks revenge.
Sigh. Haven't a clue what we could do.
Steve - have you got a ride-on mower? We did in our last house, and I adored whizzing around on it! Husband loved it too.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 04:23 AM

Just another thought, even more difficult. If we rid ourselves of all such definitions - man, woman, black, white, Christian, Muslim, etc. and were all just people, perhaps the world may be a better place.

We live near a park and I love watching the little children play. They don't care what gender, colour or creed their playmates are. The differences don't seem to matter up to a certain age. Something changes them in later life. Peer pressure? Conditioning? The current education system? Change whatever that is and we are on a winner :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 04:45 AM

Oh Dave, you're so right there! As a primary school teacher, I saw this so often. I think I related on here a while ago about the white South African lad of about eight who arrived in my class. There was an empty seat next to Ahmed, but the lad objected loudly (strong SA accent) "Ai daont sit nixt to BLEX!!" I was rather proud that my entire class gasped in horror. I took the boy outside and explained gently about 'all humans being the same, and we don't say those things here'. He hung his head and sat nixt to the bleck!
That summer, I shed a quiet tear when the same lad appeared with Ahmed in the three-legged race, arms about eachother. They'd become firm friends! (And they won the race too!)

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 05:16 AM

Plenty of food for thought there, Eliza. I know that there's a temptation to think of the subjugation of women and girls in religions as a "Muslim thang," but I was brought up a Catholic, and my Catholicism in my formative years was solidly a lads'/men's club in which the inferiority and unsuitability of women for any kind of position in the Church was assumed and unquestioned. Most of the "great composers" and artists were men. As you allude to, there has always been the assumption that women's sport is a lesser light (reflected in lower reward for achievement, something only recently beginning to be addressed).

Without wanting to sound too gloomy, Dave, those children then go home to their parents, aunties, uncles, grannies and grandads, many of whom are still steeped in the old attitudes...

My garden's way too bitty in layout for a ride-on, Eliza.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 05:25 AM

You caught the lad just in time Eliza. Well, nearly. I believe it was Aristotle who said "Give me a child until he is 7 and I will show you the man.”

Point taken about the families, Steve, but we have to start somewhere. It could take many generations but the number of people with those attitudes will become fewer and fewer until it becomes negligible. We just have to persist.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 05:47 AM

"A big problem is that there appears to be little discussion between the sexes on this subject."

It's hard at times for men to bring this up and easy to say the wrong thing. Not because there's the risk of being jumped on for so doing, but because a lot of otherwise caring men haven't articulated their ideas clearly in their own minds. A classic example of saying the wrong thing is advising women and girls to "be careful" whenever they go out.

On a slightly lighter note, but possibly illustrative, whenever I have to drive anywhere on my own for more than a few miles, Mrs Steve bids me drive carefully. I always say nah, I'm going to drive like a bloody maniac, jump every traffic light and belt along at 100 mph on the wrong side of the road...

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 06:18 AM

Why is it wrong to say be careful? I would rather not have to say it but in some cases it needs to be said.

The Soham murder case of 2002 has been brought up in the news. Back then the case was all over the tv radio and newspapers. My nieces were 11 and 9 at the time. They knew the names of Holly & Jessica and brought up the subject. Their father was there too. We calmly told them about being wary of strangers and if anyone tried to entice them into a car etc, to run and shout as loudly as possible.

I was saddened that the subject was brought up but, in a way, glad that it was. I have no doubt that children would have been talking about it among themselves.

Would it be wrong to tell you about a pub with a reputation for violence? Or be wary of an area known for muggings etc?

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 07:15 AM

I can see we all understand the problem, appreciate the causes, identify the type of perpetrators and the areas in which it occurs, view askance the roots of it all and approve of stern sentencing of offenders. But What Can Be Done To Change Things??
My only suggestion is for Feminism to come to the fore. We women need to stand up for ourselves like my feisty niece (she's an ardent feminist, gives lectures, participates in public demonstrations etc)
In short, we need to become more like men! Not hating men, not despising them, but forming a new society in which equal rights, standards and respect prevail. Sounds very 'soapboxy' I know. But what alternatives are there?
I have an advantage here. As you know, my much-loved husband is an African (women? pah!) and a Muslim (women? pah and double pah!) But I knew about these attitudes, having seen them in action all over W Africa. Fortunately, we have achieved a compromise, using mutual respect, understanding and kindness. Plus a lot of love. Could there be some sort of clue in this for addressing the misogynistic crew?

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 07:52 AM

"Would it be wrong to tell you about a pub with a reputation for violence? Or be wary of an area known for muggings etc?"

Of course not. Those are specific cases in which advice is appropriate. I'm referring to generalised advice to girls and women to not go out alone, not go out late, always stay under street lights, don't go out in a miniskirt, don't get drunk, always ask a cop for credentials...

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 08:22 AM

A dispiriting but still sadly apt article i read yesterday.

I was searching for the quote

"Men are afraid women will laugh at them.

Women are afraid men will kill them.”


By Jennifer Wright from Harpers Bazaar January 2018

A timely lesson on why sexual coercion isn't consent.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 08:41 AM

What a super article, Rain Dog. Should be compulsory reading.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 08:44 AM

Well that's a good read, but it's a long read, and its cumulative impact is, well, to cast men in general in a bad light, despite the occasional caveats. Maybe that's needed...? It made me uncomfortable, not because it was saying things I didn't want to hear but because, er, I'm not like that...

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 09:12 AM

One of the most important books I have read in the last 30 years is:

The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals That Protect Us from Violence
https://www.goodreads.com › 56465.The_Gift_of_Fear
The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker tells us how to tune into the body's natural awareness (a subconscious intuition for danger that is hard-wired into our ...

Everyone needs to read it.

And every parent needs to pay heed to how they are raising their sons. I was totally conscious the whole time my two sons were growing up that I wanted to raise them in such a way that no woman would come back at me and tell me "what a lousy job" I did. Part of my "job" was getting them away from a father who abused two wives. Of course it helped that my Dad had raised me to be strong and independent. And our social circle included very good men - good role models in the pre and early teens.

Does every woman have this option? Why not?

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Charmion
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 10:41 AM

Rain Dog, the source of that quote is the Canadian novelist, poet and essayist Margaret Atwood, author of “The Handmaid’s Tale” and a lot more thought-provoking stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 12:58 PM

Thanks Charmion. I did find it yesterday, the article i mentioned uses it. Apologies for not making that clear in my post. In fact it seems that Gavin de Becker also mentions it in the book which Dorothy recommends.

I have not read any Atwood but have read/heard/seen many interviews with her. I have always found her interesting.

I did watch the first series of The Handmaid's Tale and thought it was the best drama i saw that year. It seemed even more so in an era of Trump and ISIS. Sadly it still is relevant now.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 06:05 PM

An article in The Observer by Karen Ingala Smith.

The 81 Women allegedly killed by men since the murder of Sarah Everard

Data compiled by Karen Ingala-Smith on her blog Counting Dead Women


The Observer


"I started Counting Dead Women in January 2012, after the murder of 20-year-old Kirsty Treloar, who had been referred to the charity of which I am chief executive, when she was trying to leave her violent boyfriend. A year and a half later, Clarrie O’Callaghan and I had our first conversation, one that would lead to the development of the Femicide Census. We’ve made Freedom of Information requests going back to 2009 about men’s fatal violence against women. From this we’ve identified that 62% of women killed by men are killed by a partner or ex-partner, and that at least a third of these women were in the process of leaving, or had left him; that teenage girls, as well as women in their 80s or 90s, can be killed by men who were supposed to love them; that 92% of women who are killed by men are killed by someone they know. One in 12 is a woman who is killed by her son.

Black women are disproportionately victimised, yet more likely to receive a sub-standard response from state agencies. And Sarah Everard was the 16th woman to be killed by a serving or former police officer since 2009."

++

Mentioned on the list is Julia James who lived in a small village just outside Dover. She was killed while walking her dog in a wood, a short distance from her home.

She joined the police as a PCSO in 2008 and had more recently been working with victims of domestic abuse while based in Canterbury.

One of my friends had known her since primary school. It was a big shock to the local community.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 06:12 PM

Russell Williams scandalized the profession of arms in Canada; he brought it into disrepute. Worse than that, he murdered. When I was a young officer, we were all enjoined, "don't fuck the troops." Williams, apparently, never hoisted it in. The mention of his name still raises the hackles on the back of my neck.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 06:47 PM

Rain Dog, it's bloody awful when thing strike so close to home. My sister is a good friend of Jo Cox's mum and watched Jo grow up from a little girl, through her teenage years and as an accomplished grown-up as she became a cherished local MP. One of my dearest friends in the 1970s was Blair Peach, a very fine man who taught me how to fight racism and stand up for working people's rights, murdered by a policeman. Well, whaddya know... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Oct 21 - 04:15 AM

It must indeed be awful when the victim is known to you. Anger and sadness combined.
I've been thinking about different types of men in different settings, and remember the days when I used to go all alone to the Sheringham Potty Festival, staying for the evening sing-arounds in the pub. I was much much younger then, and would normally never go into a pub all alone, but the men from the numerous Morris sides were absolute gentlemen. No silly remarks or 'banter', no sexual innuendo or touching. I felt completely safe and respected. They were kindly and offered me a seat etc (like brothers or uncles!)
But for some reason, men on building sites can sometimes be of the 'phwoar' variety. Wolf whistles, lewd remarks, innuendo and so on.
I think this reflects on social mores and group influences. Maybe even 'class'.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Oct 21 - 06:40 AM

I think it does depend to a large extent on how you are brought up and your peer group.

Men, in the company of other men, might well indulge in 'banter' but if a female joins their company, the majority of men will stop doing so. They have no intention of offending women.

A smaller number of men will indulge in 'banter' in mixed company. If they know the females that are present, they might well think the women don't mind it, based on past experience. I doubt if they ever asked the women if they liked it or not. The women might well just put up with it rather than being seen to make a fuss.

Men directing 'banter' at strangers is another matter. Some do it to impress their mates, fit in with the group etc. Some might do it in order to attract the attention of the women, showing they are some sort of cheeky chappy and that will impress the woman. For others it is an act of aggression directed at the woman but excused as 'banter'. The fact is that in all three cases there is a level of aggression involved. It is directed at strangers so they have no idea as to how they will react.

I mentioned Mickey Flanagan on the brexit thread. He is an east end (of London) comic. His radio show is being repeated on BBC Radio 4 Extra at the moment.

Last week he was doing a bit about going out with his mates etc. He said he might be indulging in 'banter' with them as usual but if his sister walked in the pub he would say "that's my sister, that's my sister" in order to stop his mates making any comments about her.

He was talking about the 70s and 80s. His show is a mix of his routines and chatting to his mates and family about those times. He chats to his sister about it too. Worth a listen.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 21 - 07:43 AM

That's a very thoughtful post.

I've just heard an interview with the successful young marathon runner, Charlotte Purdue. She said she has never trained alone in the dark, and when she was younger her mum or dad would even follow her in the car if she was out training in the evening. One sad aspect of all this is that more and more people will be fearful of going out at night, there will be fewer people on the streets and the streets will be all the more dangerous.

I love the custom of the evening stroll with friends and family, including children, in Spain (paseo) and Italy (passeggiata). We join in whenever we are holiday. Of course, you do need the weather for it. It's not about "feeling safe." It's about the sheer enjoyment of socialising, enjoying a stroll, maybe having a drink outside a bar or just people-watching. At the weekend even the younger kids can play out quite late, their parents never too far away. One of the best passeggiatas we've come across is the one in Lecce in Puglia. It seems that every man, woman, child and dog are out! The gelaterias are damn good too... In Andalucía, we had an all-too-brief stay in Cazorla. The paseo in the lovely town square was a highlight. That was one for a glass or two of Rioja and a spot of people-watching.

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 09:12 AM

An article from The Guardian today.

The indecent exposure epidemic.

"Recent weeks have seen renewed focus on the crime of indecent exposure, after the sentencing of the Metropolitan police officer Wayne Couzens for Everard’s kidnap, rape and murder. Couzens, it has been subsequently reported, had a history of indecent exposure. In 2015, a woman reported him for indecent exposure to Kent police; the force is now under investigation for its response to the allegation. Couzens has also been accused of twice exposing himself to staff at a McDonald’s drive-thru, again in Kent, just days before he attacked Everard. Staff provided police with Couzens’s car registration number, but it appears that no action was taken."

Subject: RE: BS: The murder of Sarah Everard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 09:35 AM

Sadly, that does not surprise me Rain Dog. While we have a police force that will do everything to protect its own and a judiciary that will always take the side of the police force, people like Couzens will always be attracted to the force for the power it gives them. A truly independent authority needs to be established to ensure the police are properly governed.