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BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA!
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Subject: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST Date: 01 Jul 02 - 03:04 PM 120 dead. So is this what the 'war on terrorism' means? Full story from the BBC here I won't bother with the CNN report. That says that 4 people were injured. Right... This is sickening. A Pentagon spokesman said 'sorry' Thanks for that America |
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Subject: RE: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Genie Date: 01 Jul 02 - 03:48 PM Well, guest, to quote Charlie Daniels' patriotic masterpiece, "The Last Fallen Hero,"
"This is a righteous cause, so without doubt or pause and
"Now the winds of war are blowing, and there's no way of knowing
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Subject: RE: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST Date: 01 Jul 02 - 03:52 PM a righteous cause???? I don't think so. Bin Laden is probably not in Afghanistan - face it, you have no idea where he is. Bombing innocent Afghanis is in NO way justifiable Righteous my arse! |
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Subject: RE: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Jul 02 - 04:04 PM Guest, you've started a non-music thread that will be sure to attract lots of arguments. It's our custom here, when doing that, to use the BS: prefix in the thread title. And people tend to prefer that you choose some name to post with, so everyone can keep it straight whcih Guest they are addressing in replying to any points that have been made. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Bobert Date: 01 Jul 02 - 04:04 PM This bloody path will lead to yet another bloody path which will lead to yet another bloody path which will lead to yet.... And the beat goes on. Yeah, war sucks and things like this bombing happen in wars. Always have. But war is no longer a practical foriegn policy alternative for the US. The world has gotten too tribalized the economy to mixed. The current "War on Terrorism" (which it isn't...) cannot succeed. Only a foreign policy that better addresses global poverty, a redistribution of wealth, inclusion, and the teaching og peace can work. All we are doing is insuring that "We will face it again." And again, and again, and... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: SharonA Date: 01 Jul 02 - 04:06 PM According to the CNN article and the ABCNews article, on their respective websites, the Pentagon's official word at present is that the US is not sure whether the damage was the result of an "errant bomb" that the US dropped as part of a response to anti-aircraft fire over the region, or whether the anti-aircraft fire itself – falling back to earth – was responsible. There's a question as to whether there was a deliberate anti-aircraft attack, or whether the US pilots mistook the firing of guns as part of the wedding party to be a military attack. But even if these people were shooting as part of a celebration, it's a dangerous practice (those bullets fall back to earth too, y'know), especially when your town is being flown over by an opposing military force with bombs! How many brain cells does it take to know better? Sheesh!!! The four injured people in question are civilians that US forces themselves had airlifted to a hospital in Kandahar, so they're the only casualties the US can be sure of. The other casualty figures, at this point, are speculation until confirmed. Here's the ABCNews article: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/STRIKE_MAIN.html |
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Subject: RE: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST Date: 01 Jul 02 - 04:18 PM A number of good points, Sharon. However, to suggest that the Afghans 'should have realized' that the traditional practice of shooting guns in the air would be mistaken for anti-aircraft fire... It's pretty obvious who has the smaller number of brain cells. God, I hate America |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: RolyH Date: 01 Jul 02 - 04:25 PM Point made Guest,but there must be better places to air your views than a music forum. RolyH(in the UK) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST,mkebenn Date: 01 Jul 02 - 04:26 PM However many people were hurt/killed, it was unintended, unlike flying airplanes full of innocent people into buildings. I grieve, but in contex. Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST,Just Amy Date: 01 Jul 02 - 04:33 PM One, two, three, what are we fightin' for? Don't ask me I don't give a damn... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Wesley S Date: 01 Jul 02 - 04:37 PM Gee - An unnamed guest thats's critical of America. What a suprise. I'm sure our guest is just as upset about the innocents that died on 9/11. Let's not raise to this bait. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Don Firth Date: 01 Jul 02 - 04:39 PM We do tend to get things bass-ackwards. The Korean War was a war. But the gummint insisted on calling it a "police action." The terrorist attack of 9/11 was a criminal act, and should have been responded to with an actual police action (track down the individuals responsible and bring them to justice), but the gummint insisted on declaring "War on Terrorism" and then bombed the crap out of a little country that had already had the crap bombed out of it. And we wonder where terrorist come from. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: SharonA Date: 01 Jul 02 - 04:41 PM One sentence in that BBC article puzzles me – it says: "One six-year-old girl was brought to the hospital still wearing her party dress." "Still wearing"?? Like the other injured people went home and changed clothes first???? Yes, I realize that this is an obvious attempt to wring more tears from the reader, but it puzzles me that it appears in a news article that is supposed to be objective and dispassionate. From the BBC, no less. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: X Date: 01 Jul 02 - 04:42 PM The Afghans should have kicked their "House Guest" out sooner. By the way GUEST, I'm an American and I hate you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST Date: 01 Jul 02 - 04:44 PM Hear, hear, Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST Date: 01 Jul 02 - 04:46 PM The Banjoest, I feel very sorry that you have the need to hate anyone. Hate is a very bad emotion |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Penny S. Date: 01 Jul 02 - 04:47 PM It was the middle of the night, I heard. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Jul 02 - 04:51 PM Well, I would imagine that most Americans will be full of regret that this has happened. It's a horrible thing, and it shouldn't have happened - but somebody made a horrible mistake, and it DID happen. I hate war. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST,Just Amy Date: 01 Jul 02 - 05:25 PM CNN is reporting 20 dead and 60 injured. See www.cnn.com |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST Date: 01 Jul 02 - 05:47 PM For space age technology, for Stone Age finesse, For getting us all in one hell of a mess, With your God save America, God damn the rest. America, we stand against you
Miles Woolton |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: SharonA Date: 01 Jul 02 - 05:47 PM GUEST says in response to my post: "...to suggest that the Afghans 'should have realized' that the traditional practice of shooting guns in the air would be mistaken for anti-aircraft fire..." No, I didn't suggest that they "should have realized" that; I suggested that shooting guns in the air when an opposition force that has the capacity to drop bombs on you is in your country is not a very wise thing to do. Please note, in the ABCNews article I linked, that it says, "Pentagon and U.S. military Central Command officials told ABCNEWS that U.S. military forces on the ground in the Uruzgan province in southern Afghanistan came under anti-aircraft fire while on a reconnaissance patrol mission Sunday night local time. Troops then called in close air support, according to U.S. officials, and coalition aircraft opened fire on a target in a village about 100 miles north of the southern Afghan city of Kandahar. U.S. officials acknowledged that at least one bomb went astray during the attack on the target." My guess is that the troops on the ground were able to tell the difference between shooting party-goers and anti-aircraft fire. I also guess that the partying villagers were aware that IN THEIR VILLAGE there were people using anti-aircraft artillery. And yet they popped off their party guns, at night, when those flashes MIGHT – not would, but might – be interpreted from the air as being part of the anti-aircraft attack GOING ON AT THE SAME TIME IN THE SAME VILLAGE. It's foolish, to say the least, to take a chance on killing your fellow party-goer in any case. Besides, when did this shooting-off of guns become a "traditional" part of an Afghani wedding celebration? To me, it sounds less like tradition than like a bad habit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST Date: 01 Jul 02 - 06:00 PM Besides, when did this shooting-off of guns become a "traditional" part of an Afghani wedding celebration? To me, it sounds less like tradition than like a bad habit. So, what 'you think' is important? You obviosly know nothing about Afghani culture To try and defend the US action in this case is a losing battle. America did wrong. VERY WRONG The earlier GUEST who quoted "With your God save America, God damn the rest" had it pretty much spot on |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: greg stephens Date: 01 Jul 02 - 06:20 PM Cockups happen.War is shit. And GUEST, Afghanis is not a polite term for Afghans; if you want to present yourself as someone a little bit in the know, try a bit of research. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST Date: 01 Jul 02 - 06:25 PM Thank you Greg, point taken The fact that this is a 'war' against a non-existant enemy where innocent Afghans die for no good reason should surely be questioned? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Amos Date: 01 Jul 02 - 07:00 PM Guest: A non-existant enemy? Excuse me? Oh, dear -- you mean we just misplaced three skyscrapers full of innocent people? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST Date: 01 Jul 02 - 07:11 PM Amos, I'm aware of two towers. Where do you get your 'third' skyscaper from? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: X Date: 01 Jul 02 - 07:44 PM Guest: Truly, I don't hate you, But I feel sorry you hate a whole country of people, people who are only defending themselves. I just thougth you need a bit of your own of your own medicine. Looks like you didn't like the taste. Don't forget, it was hate for the US that started this mess and they were the first ones to fire on us. Pay back is a bitch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Amos Date: 01 Jul 02 - 07:47 PM I believe at least one other WTC building was destroyed, but I may be wrong about that. Correct it to two, then. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Lepus Rex Date: 01 Jul 02 - 07:56 PM What did you mean, mkbenn, by "However many people were hurt/killed, it was unintended, unlike flying airplanes full of innocent people into buildings. I grieve, but in contex"? You mean they didn't mean to kill anyone with those bombs they dropped? It was all just an awful mistake? Please. US soldiers such as those responsible for todays massacres have shown over and over that they have no respect for Afghan lives. Most of them are cretins who spent their childhoods raping Ned Beatty and shooting 'possums for dinner. Savages. But what, exactly, does 9/11 have to do with the evaporation of an Afghan wedding party? How were a bunch of Afghan hillbillies responsible for "flying airplanes full of innocent people into buildings?" Oh, maybe they were the ones who blew up Amos' "third tower." And Banjoest said: "Don't forget, it was hate for the US that started this mess and they were the first ones to fire on us. Pay back is a bitch." Again, WHAT Afghans are you talking about? How... Oh, forget it. I won't even try with something like you. Just continue to take up valuable oxygen, genius. You couldn't find Afghanistan on a map of Afghanistan. God, you're some evil fuckers. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST,Matt Date: 01 Jul 02 - 08:28 PM Sharon asks why the BBC would include the detail about the wounded girl arriving at the hospital in her party dress. Well, duh. Sharon, dear, think about how the news business works. American bomb falls on little Afghan girl. That, sadly, is not news. American bomb falls on little Afghan girl wearing party dress. Aha, now that's the kind of horrific detail that will get people's attention. Run that story. In any case, is it such a bad thing for us Americans to be reminded that when bombs are dropped, some land on children? Our revenge for 9/11 comes at a terrible price, and in fact we all knew this when we lined up behind President Bush as he ordered our forces into action. We knew that collateral damage would occur, i.e., that innocents would be maimed and killed by accident as we exacted our revenge. I don't see how pointing out the obvious makes CNN somehow unobjective in their reporting. This is not to say that firing guns into the air when there are American bombers in the vicinity is a bright idea. Those people should be nominated for a Darwin award. Then again, the primate brain is fairly small, and has room for at most one thought. Shoot gun, now. Make big noise. Express joy, yes. I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time. But the little girl in the news story was surely not the one pulling the trigger, and it is not a breach of objectivity for CNN to point that out. She's an innocent victim, no matter where you think the blame lies. We humans are rather a hopeless lot. Americans are no better or worse than our English-speaking "GUEST", who for all we know may be from a country with an equally spotty record in the matter of Afghanistan. The fact is, we've been soaking the earth with each other's blood ever since we figured out that it was possible. I don't see any hope that this will change, whether the United States remains dominant or some new power rises, or we all just fall into anarchy. I won't be waving any flags today, or spouting off about just causes. But I *will* remember that little girl as I change my son's diaper tonight. My family won the geographic lottery, that's all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Wincing Devil Date: 01 Jul 02 - 08:40 PM Take into consideration that once you have read a news account of an event, you have a fairly good idea of what DIDN'T happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Don Firth Date: 01 Jul 02 - 08:55 PM ". . . when we lined up behind President Bush. . . ." Sorry, Matt, but "we" didn't all line up behind President Bush. I stand by what I said above. The response to 9/11 should have been something amounting to a police action, i.e., tracking down the guilty parties and bringing them to justice. Granted, this would be extremely difficult to do. Nevertheless! Bush took the easy way and simply declared war on what looked like the most likely target. That it would result in "collateral damage" should come as no surprise to anyone. Whereas the polls claim that the whole country is "lining up" behind Bush, there is a substantial number of people who are aware that, from the start of his tenure as President, Bush was in for some pretty heavy weather. It may seem callous to say, but 9/11 was the best thing that could have happened to him. The collective knee-jerk kicked him up in the polls, and the international situation creates enough distraction that it's allowing him to attempt to push things through on the domestic front that will return this country to the nineteenth century. But not everybody is fooled. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Amos Date: 01 Jul 02 - 09:03 PM Lepus: Excuse me; you have eithe rmisunderstood me, or something much worse, but I seriously object to being called an evil fucker by anyone. I was responding to the anonymous Guest's remark about non-existent enemies. I was not justifying or lessening in any way the horror of this incident and all events of similar insanity. Including the destruction of the two main towers and the other buildings at the World Trade Center which were lost. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Lepus Rex Date: 01 Jul 02 - 09:11 PM Ah, actually, I only meant to call Banjoest and mkbenn "evil fuckers." The "third tower" comment was s'posed to be funny, from my original, light-hearted post, which I almost completely re-wrote after I read Banjoest's latest. Should've deleted the reference to you in the final version. Sorry. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Bill D Date: 01 Jul 02 - 09:11 PM righto!...some soldiers make a mistake and you post "shame" in a folk group..(and the use of the spelling 'arse' pretty much jibes with other cultural/linguistic hints to tell us where most of these 'guest' postings are from..) Write a letter to the Pentagon saying "please, be more careful"--but go the hell away and LEAVE THIS GROUP OUT OF IT, unless you have something positive to contribute! BTW...there were at least 4 buildings destroyed...3 from the direct result of the planes--not that it makes any relevant difference. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Celtic Soul Date: 01 Jul 02 - 09:41 PM Amos, you are correct. The 2 twin towers got all the press, but there was a *lot* of collateral damage. I saw a couple of friends of mine just last night who live in NYC. One of them has been commuting to Connecticut, and now to Jersey City because her building was decimated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Amos Date: 01 Jul 02 - 10:01 PM Thanks, CS -- someone oughta post an inventory. There's a terrific in-depth story about the excavation in the current Atlantic. But really, the point is not that we have enemies. We kind of know that. The question is, are we handling them with any more intelligence than we are fucking up all the other aspects of our struggle for decent survival on a limited if beautiful sphere in a huge vacuum... and I think not. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Genie Date: 01 Jul 02 - 11:00 PM Guest, I hope you realize that in quoting Charlie Daniels's song, I was using irony. Unfortunately, I fear that the sentiments he expresses in that song echo those of an awful lot, if not the majority, of the US public right now. I hope that the news coverage of this mishap will help wake folks up to the realities of even a "just" war. Genie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Bobert Date: 01 Jul 02 - 11:05 PM Take a deep beath and chill, folks. Now, try to put a little more effort into finding common ground as opposed to slaughtering one another in some game of win-lose. We have a world full of win-lose folks at the controls and with them the world is very much less stable than what any clear thinking perspon would prefer... Start thinking peace, compromise and what kind of world you want to leave for your kids.., Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Peg Date: 01 Jul 02 - 11:09 PM why is it always assumed that an entire NATION must be somehow responsible for the actions of its military or government? I didn't vote for these people, and I think bombing Afghanistan in retribution for something a bunch of Saudi Arabian nationals did defies logic...I mean, it's so illogical it isn't even wrong... As for "them" attacking "us" first...get real. 9-11 was a wake-up call for anyone who has not yet realized that there is a huge amount of hatred for the USA across the globe. I personally do not feel this is entirely deserved, but it would be extremely naive and not a little bit dishonest to think that we as a nation have not also wrought a great deal of evil in the world... No one deserves to be bombed to death.
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Subject: Peace, compromise, the world we'll leave our kids From: Haruo Date: 01 Jul 02 - 11:15 PM I'm with Genie's latest, Joe's choice of hate objects, and Bobert's counsel. Liland |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: X Date: 01 Jul 02 - 11:26 PM Lepus Rex: I've been to war and yes,I am an Evil Fucker but not so evil I would fly a plane full of innocents into a building kill other innocents. What we did is sadly the thing that happens in wars, people get killed and yes this is a war, but we didn't fly that bomb into that wedding on purpose. The US has done a Damd good job of keeping civilian casualties down. Hell, we could have carpet bombed the place. By the way King Rabbit, I know where Afghanstan is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Lanfranc Date: 02 Jul 02 - 04:41 AM If the first victim of any war is truth, the second is always children. Children lose their fathers in fighting, and in indiscriminate modern war, their mothers, other family members and even their own lives in "collateral damage". Then, for example, if they are Iraqi, they are denied medical treatment and adequate food by a combination of the despot ruling their own country and indiscriminate sanctions aimed at that despot.
"I come and stand at every door, What we need to fight are the causes of war and terrorism, ie the disease and not the symptoms. Alan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Hrothgar Date: 02 Jul 02 - 05:17 AM Some spin doctors are going to have their work cut out convincing the survivors of the wedding party not to have at least a strong distate for Americans. ..and of course, they can't tell the difference between Bush supporters and opponents any more that the military can tell the difference between guns fired by a wedding party and guns fired in anger. By the way, I'm intrigued, as a student of military tactics, about the party of ground troops that came under anti-aircraft fire (described above). Were the troops as high as some of those in Vietnam? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST,mkebenn Date: 02 Jul 02 - 08:14 AM Evil fucker because I grieve for innocents caught in a war torn country? Sigh, see ya, have a nice day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: PeteBoom Date: 02 Jul 02 - 09:01 AM Ya know - maybe they'd be better if the US and all their pals pulled out and left the folks there to sort things out for themselves.... Oh, wait - we tried that once. That resulted in the Taliban coming to power. Is there another suggestion? Have a day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: SharonA Date: 02 Jul 02 - 09:32 AM GUEST asks, sarcastically, "So, what 'you think' is important?" What I think is no more or less important than what anyone else on this Forum thinks. That's why forums like this exist, to be a means of sharing and exchanging points of view. For GUEST to express his or her thoughts and then to rudely dismiss the thoughts of others only serves to invalidate GUEST's opinion. In other words, GUEST, if what others think is unimportant to you, don't expect others to share your view of your own importance. GUEST also says, "You obviosly know nothing about Afghani culture." GUEST obviously knows nothing about how to spell "obviously"! As to "Afghani culture", I know that it existed before guns were invented, so I have trouble accepting the claim that shooting guns into the air is part of some ancient rite. I also know that people all over the world like to make noise when they're celebrating, and that some forms of noisemaking are not safe. In some cultures, the unsafe noisemaking is regulated and those who violate those regulations can be arrested and/or can have their noisemakers confiscated (e.g. in some US states it's illegal for the general public to purchase and shoot fireworks, or to shoot guns into the air – and, yes, some people here do it anyway and call it their "tradition" and think there's nothing wrong with it, but it's still illegal). I also know that it used to be part of American culture and tradition to send black people to the back of the bus and to discriminate against them in many other ways that were just as indefensible as the "tradition" of endangering others' lives by indiscriminate shooting. GUEST also says, "To try and defend the US action in this case is a losing battle." The US "action" was a military action, taken in response to an enemy's deliberate act of aggression (anti-aircraft fire), and as often happens a bomb missed its target – the bombing of innocent civilians was unintentional. GUEST seems to doubt that there was any anti-aircraft fire, so I refer GUEST to the following text, taken from the article linked here: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/STRIKE_MAIN.html "...Afghans say about 40 people were killed at a wedding ceremony on Monday, in which participants fired their guns into the air in celebration. However, U.S. officials said it appeared to be more than just celebratory fire. " 'Normally when you think of celebratory fire, which is something that is not necessarily uncommon, it's random, it's sprayed, it's not directed at a specific target,' U.S. Colonel Roger King said at Bagram air base. 'In this instance, the people on board the aircraft felt that the weapons were tracking them and were making a sustained effort to engage them.' "Pentagon and U.S. military Central Command officials told ABCNEWS that U.S. military forces on the ground and in the air were conducting a large reconnaissance operation Sunday evening in Uruzgan province, an area where Taliban leader Mullah Omar is thought to be hiding, when they came under what appeared to be hostile fire. "Troops called in air support, according to U.S. officials, and coalition aircraft opened fire on a target in a village about 100 miles north of the city of Kandahar. During the operation, an American AC-130 gunship took 'deliberate and sustained anti-aircraft fire' from the ground, and shot back. The officials say an American B-52 also dropped seven precision-guided bombs, called JDAMs, targeted at caves and bunkers. Officials confirmed one of the bombs missed its target." GUEST says, "America did wrong. VERY WRONG." That's an emotional value judgment (kinda like that "hating Americans" thing... some people will say it's wrong to hate anyone, others will try to justify the "rightness" of hating a select group of people whether they're directly responsible for a "wrong" action or not). Militarily, the US forces did just what their training says they should have done in response to a military threat – no "right" or "wrong" about it. There's nothing "right" or "wrong" about a mistake, and a bomb missing its target is a mistake. Shit happens. Italics fixed by JoeClone |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: SharonA Date: 02 Jul 02 - 09:38 AM Oops – I didn't put an end-of-italics HTML after the word "WRONG" in the last paragraph of my last post. (See, there's another mistake! *G*) That paragraph is my commentary, and not part of the ABC News article that I'd posted in italics above it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: kendall Date: 02 Jul 02 - 10:08 AM Why is it that people can create "smart bombs" but we can't create smart people to drop them? Right on Peg! These people who think it all started with the towers remind me of the story about the little boy who came home with a bloody nose and a black eye; his father asked what happened, and he said "It all started when he hit me back." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Lepus Rex Date: 02 Jul 02 - 12:18 PM No, mkebenn, because you're grieving "in context." Because your sorrow is apparently tempered by the fact that the victims were Muslims. Again, why bring up 9/11? What did these people have to do with "flying airplanes full of innocent people into buildings?" Seriously, I'd like to know. And Banjoest, there is no "war." Maybe in a "war on drugs" way, but not in a "WW2" way, or even a "Vietnam" way. Keep telling yourself that there is, though, if it makes you feel better about all those "civilian casualties." And as others have already pointed out, there were no Afghans flying airplanes into buildings on Sept. 11th. The only thing the hijackers had in common with the Afghan peoples is that they were Muslims. Are Muslims the "they" you spoke of, the ones who deserve some "pay back?" See, evil. ---Lepus Rex
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Lonesome EJ Date: 02 Jul 02 - 12:45 PM Bombing an Afghan wedding is a tragic mistake. Intentionally attacking and murdering thousands of innocents at the World Trade Center was homicide. The action in Afghanistan by the US has been directed toward removing a criminal theocracy that repressed and murdered its own people and supported and gave safe harbor to Al Quaeda. The overthrow of this fundamentalist theocracy was largely supported by Afghan citizens. I am also largely ignorant of Afghan Cultural habits. I do know this : bullets fired into the air return to earth at roughly the same speed. Recently, a 6 year old child at the Denver Zoo was fatally wounded by a round fired into the air several miles away. Thus, I would deduce that this kind of activity, culturally based or not, is stupid and dangerous and should be stopped. My guess is that, in a land where there is no existing tradition of law and order, the guy with the gun gets to make the rules whether they are stupid and dangerous or not. My guess is that Iraq is next in line. And, though I didn't vote for Bush either, I hope to hell we do find a way to yank Sadam Hussein like the rotten tooth he is. And Guest "who hates America"...feel free. I'm sure your country has no enemies, and that you'll never have to dig bodies of your countrymen from a smoking rubble that was the result of someone's religious fanaticism. Sit in your ivory tower and condemn those of us who did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: kendall Date: 02 Jul 02 - 12:57 PM My instinct tells me that "Guest" lives in one of those countries that we saved from the Nazis or the Japanese. Maybe his country owes us billions in war debts? one sure way to make an enemy is to loan him money. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST,Oona Date: 02 Jul 02 - 05:08 PM I happen to think that when you are smart, wealthy, powerful, ingenious, generous and compassionate, others knock you because of jealousy. So this is what the USA can expect from its enemies and allies. I am an American and I can say from experience I have heard it all!!!! Of course the people who have the biggest problems with us are having a bigger problem with themselves, for they do not have the privilege to be an American. This is still the place to be on this planet and I wish the rest of you would get over it!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Donuel Date: 02 Jul 02 - 05:23 PM Spotters with a laser painted their target but a finger lingered too long on the trigger and swept across the land as the pointer was set down. It briefly splashed a hospital two miles away.
The bomb knows
If anyone here knows
US words said
"stray bomb.
We know what we don't know
It is not the same as the women
*quotes by Rumsfeld 7-2-2002 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Penny S. Date: 02 Jul 02 - 05:37 PM Kendall, I usually find your comments thoughtful. I try to stay out of this sort of debate? discussion? whatever, because it gets stereotyped and silly. The people of a state are not its government, and those who castigate the Americans or the British or whoever as though they were only succeed in riling everyone. And those who confuse error in confusing circumstances with negligence with war crime do too. But please don't bring up that debt we are supposed to owe the USA, who only entered the World Wars when they were attacked themselves, and tried to stay out when others were struggling. That entry was welcomed, and its outcome appreciated, but not the way we get accused of ingratitude, envy and weakness whenever we feel that the decisions of a government we have no chance to vote for, and for whom many of those who do don't bother to are wrong. Its a new century and the past is the past. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: kendall Date: 02 Jul 02 - 07:33 PM And the debt goes on... My point was aimed at the "person" who said he/she HATES AMERICA, and, at no one else. Old Maine proverb, If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, only the one it hits will yelp. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 02 Jul 02 - 08:49 PM Bravely spoken, Peg - you're a diamond! Banjoist said: Don't forget, it was hate for the US that started this mess. I wonder if he has ever given a moment's thought to what started the hate? Even here in the UK - where we have just about the only government (apart from Israel's) that is prepared to support Bush - a large proportion of thinking people hold America in contempt. Perhaps the attitude exemplified by Kendall partly explains why. His remarks about saving us (I like the "we") would take the breath away, except that he's probably blissfully unaware that more than 20 MILLION USSR people lost their lives fighting that war. Or if he is aware, he would also know they were only commies. And anyway, Uncle Sam weighed in with dollars, which obviously count more than lives. Round about now might be a good time for Americans to start reading "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" while there might yet be time to prevent history repeating itself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Amos Date: 02 Jul 02 - 09:00 PM Fionn: I would hesitate to put words in Kendall's mouth or attitudes in his head for him. I seriously doubt he has forgotten who else fought with the Allies in WW2. I reckon you have mistaken him for some other kind of person. It is doubtful whether Stalin's forces could have (or even would have) pushed Hitler's forces back to Berlin from the East if the English, American and European resitance forces weren't pounding him from the West at the same time. I am not sure whether the Allies could have done it without the USSR, although I like to fancy they could have soomer or later. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST,Pean O'Graffey Date: 03 Jul 02 - 01:27 AM I find this thread disturbing on several levels. First because I am a guest from an arse-spelling part of the world and find the word "hate" offensive in what should be a reasonably intelligent debate. Second, because governments of all western alleged democracies have taken actions against the wishes of most of their constituents, and taken those actions in the name of those constituents, claiming a mandate to do so. In this none of us are any better or worse than the others. Third, the reporting of the wedding being bombed was irresponsible and emotive propaganda. Does it matter that it was a wedding and not a building site? Or a jail? That they were civilians is all that's relevant, and all we should be discussing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST Date: 03 Jul 02 - 01:32 AM Fire Guns in the Air...In a WAR_ZONE?????
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Teribus Date: 03 Jul 02 - 05:06 AM From the reports I have read and the briefings given there were two aircraft involved, a B-52 which dropped seven laser guided bombs, and an AC-130 gunship that returned fire on what was considered to be in response to a threat. The Forward Observers who "painted" the targets for the B-52 strike saw six of the bombs strike thier designated targets. The seventh bomb struck a hillside not the village - this I believe is borne out by the casualty figures as they would have been much greater if the bomb had hit the village.
By the bye, Kendall in referring to war debts owed by us Europeans - please when making those statements concede two points
1. The United Kingdom did not receive any aid under the Marshall Plan.
2. The United Kingdom paid off it's War Debt to America in full back sometime between 1968 and 1972 - The only country to do so. To those contributing to this thread who question the validity of attacking Afghanistan in the wake of the events of 9th September, remember that Bin Laden, who was based in Afghanistan, was implicated from the beginning and that those controlling Afghanistan at that time were given every opportunity to surrender him. They chose not to and put themselves squarely in the frame. With any terrorist organisation that has managed to establish themselves, the first essential step in any counter- terrorist action (call it war, police action, whatever) is to deny that organisation a safe operating base - this the coalition did when they successfully removed the Taliban from power in Afghanistan. Groups still remain at large and will continue to do so for some time, but while they are still being kept on the move their ability to pursue their agenda is severely inhibited.
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: SharonA Date: 03 Jul 02 - 08:59 AM Thanks, Teribus, for making that post and bringing up those points. I, too, have read and heard that the one bomb (out of the seven dropped) to miss its target landed on an unoccupied hillside outside the village. A US military team on the ground saw it land and said they did not see anyone in the area. So the title of this thread is incorrect; the US did not "bomb an Afghan wedding." A joint team of Afghan and US investigators is now trying to determine whether the AC-130 gunship fire is responsible for the civilian casualties, or whether the civilians were killed and injured by the Afghan anti-aircraft fire itself, as it fell back to the ground. Please, let's hold off on posting any more songs and poems about this incident until these investigators announce their findings, instead of depending on what may just be anti-American propaganda from Kabul. Today's update on abcnews.go.com (same link as I posted above – the content changes daily) includes the following: "There have been a number of reports of American aircraft bombing civilians since the military campaign in Afghanistan began last October, and this latest incident angered some residents of the Afghan capital of Kabul. In May, the private Afghan Islamic Press reported that U.S. planes pounded the village of Bul Khil in Khost province after mistaking traditional firing at a wedding for an attack, a report the U.S. Army rejected." Given this precedent, I'm not surprised that Kabul's claim that last Monday's gunfire was nothing but "traditional firing at a wedding" isn't holding water. The ABC News article also says, "During the past two weeks, U.S. Central Command officials told ABCNEWS, the U.S. military has run aerial and ground reconnaissance missions in the Uruzgan province area and were certain there was a pocket of air defense sites in the area. In recent weeks, planes have been fired upon as they have flown over the space, officials said." Surely, that wasn't "traditional firing at a wedding". Heck, they're even shooting at US personnel who are trying to aid the people wounded Monday. The same article states, "Pentagon officials also reported Tuesday that a U.S. military convoy of three vehicles carrying six soldiers came under enemy fire today while returning from a city hospital in Kandahar to check on the status of 10 people who checked themselves in after Monday's incident. One U.S. soldier reportedly suffered a minor gunshot wound in the foot and was being treated at the military hospital at Kandahar Air Base. The convoy was carrying U.S. civil affairs and medical personnel for the 101st Airborne division, and officials believe 20 rounds of fire were directed at the soldiers. At the Kandahar city hospital, the soldiers offered military assistance to the hospital, observed the condition of about 20 people and questioned hospital staff about how the patients were wounded — presumably to see if any of the injured were enemy troops. The convoy made it back to its base without returning fire." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Mrrzy Date: 03 Jul 02 - 10:33 AM Yes, we did bomb (or strafe) a wedding. However, the wedding guests were shooting up into the air where our planes were, and there is no way we could distinguish happy gunfire from dangerous gunfire. If you know there are warplanes overhead, don't use automatic weapons fire to call for a toast, even if it is your wont. It may be horrible but it is completely understandable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: SharonA Date: 03 Jul 02 - 10:46 AM But Mrrzy, there were troops on the ground directing the aircraft, telling them where to bomb and strafe. You don't think those ground troops could tell whether the Afghans were shooting at planes or just partying? I do. I think the whole "just traditional wedding gunfire" story is suspect, especially in light of the fact that they tried to use the same story in May; it was a crock then, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's a crock now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: SharonA Date: 03 Jul 02 - 11:08 AM The latest update on abcnews.go.com includes this: "At Bagram, Colonel Roger King said a U.S. ground patrol had called in air support after feeling threatened by automatic weapons fire. The planes, he said, then met sustained and hostile fire from several locations around the village, including anti-aircraft fire, that was not consistent with a wedding party." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST,JTT Date: 03 Jul 02 - 11:15 AM I'm in Ireland, yet I'm certainly aware that it's a Middle Eastern custom to fire guns in the air at celebrations of all kinds. Not a very bright one - but then there are Irish customs that undoubtedly the Middle Eastern world would find equally stupid. There seems to be a game of "who hurts most" going on here; let's not show each other our scabs, please. All of us in the west have been hurt by the crushing of the World Trade Centre twin towers and surrounding buildings; Ireland lost more citizens than any other country outside the US, as it happens. But to many *outside* the US it seems illogical to bomb Afghanistan, one of the poorest countries in the world, rather than refusing to trade with Saudi Arabia, for instance, where the centre of the Bin Laden movement apparently was or is; or (maybe even more wild an idea) trying to see why people should hate western capitalism enough to want to kill 3,000 people. These are not bad people, though they do bad things. Surely we can find a better way out of this awful tangle than killing more and more people? As for the little girl "still wearing her party dress", those unfamiliar with bombs perhaps don't realise that those caught at the centre of a bombing normally have their clothes blown off; those closer still have limbs blown off; those at the centre explode themselves. |
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Subject: The US did not bomb an Afghan Wedding. From: SharonA Date: 03 Jul 02 - 11:57 AM Again, from the latest update on abcnews.go.com: "There was also a pre-planned U.S. attack in the area that night, with B-52 bombers dropping seven 2,000-pound bombs on a cave and tunnel complex as well as on a nearby anti-aircraft position, which had fired on coalition planes in the past. One of those bombs went astray but ground spotters reported it fell on an uninhabited hillside. 'The pre-planned target was out of the village, on a ridgeline in another location,' Colonel Roger King said." So there were no bombs dropped on the village at all. All that remains to be determined is whether the bullets that killed and injured the Afghan civilians came from the US airship or not. If anyone did set off a bomb in the village that night, it wasn't dropped there by the US. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST,JTT Date: 03 Jul 02 - 12:03 PM Accounts by survivors say they were being chased, and rockets fired at the fleeing guests: http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20020703/D7KHHLNG0.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: X Date: 03 Jul 02 - 12:27 PM I think I'll change my name to "Evil Fucker." I kind of like that handle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: SharonA Date: 03 Jul 02 - 12:34 PM Strange... The AP report that JTT posted says that the guy who was to be married, along with his fiancee, were not at the party and were not injured. Yet the Reuters report reprinted by ABC, NBC and CBS says that the bride and groom were killed. Obviously we don't have the whole story yet. But the AP story doesn't convince me that the artillery that fell into the midst of the crowd at the party came from the US plane and not from those "several locations around the village" that were firing at the plane. The AP report says that several hundred people were dancing to the light of one tractor's headlights, so it sounds like most of them were in the dark; how could they have discerned, in the dark, where the shells were coming from? The AP report also says that the survivors are insistent that there had been no shooting at the party for several hours before the attack. There's no way that the US airship could have mistaken wedding-party gunfire for hostile fire when there wasn't any wedding-party gunfire! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: kendall Date: 03 Jul 02 - 01:06 PM Just to clear up a point or two, I majored in history in college, Finland, for many years, was the only country to pay their debt. Why did it take the UK so long? I wasn't aware that that had been repaid, I stand corrected. I'm also well aware of the losses of life over there, but, that has nothing to do with the point I made. That sap who hates America must have a better reason than those idiots who dropped their load in the wrong place. Maybe he/she would be more specific? Finally, a two front war was what licked Mr. Shicklegruber; the Russian didn't do it and the allies didn't do it, not by themselves anyway. BTW where was your sympathy when 200 of our Marines were killed in Lebanon by a bomb? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: DonD Date: 03 Jul 02 - 01:36 PM A bumper sticker for sale at the Clearwater Revival says "DON'T BELIEVE WHAT YOU THINK" What good advice, but how impossible to act on. Those who conclude anything with "I hate ..." obviously started with the idea "I hate". We know we can't believe what news reports say, or what generals say, or -- politicians. The expression 'I couldn't believe my eyes' is more truth than poetry; eyewitness descriptions are the last evidence to rely on. Basically we don't know shit. If we only talked about what we really know to be true rather than we think or believe, how little we would say, and what a blessing it would be. But there'd always be music. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Gervase Date: 04 Jul 02 - 04:36 AM Seems sad that more Afghans have now died as a result of TWAT (The War Against Terrorism - as personified by Dubbya) than were killed in the twin towers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: kendall Date: 04 Jul 02 - 07:54 AM You cant break eggs without making an omlette |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: kendall Date: 04 Jul 02 - 07:57 AM The title of this thread really bugs me; the USA didn't bomb a wedding, some hotdog in a plane did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST Date: 04 Jul 02 - 08:10 AM Interesting piece about this in today's Independent Newspaper |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Celtic Soul Date: 04 Jul 02 - 08:53 AM Well put, Kendall. My own thoughts on the title went something like this: You're quite welcome, GUEST! You know, we all here in the USA get on a party line with the Prez and vote on whether or not to do *anything*. If it isn't unanimous, we never do a thing. And of course, we're absolutely perfect, so everything that happens is obviously intentional. Gotta run now...it's time to get everyone in the States on the horn to see if it's OK for me to wipe my butt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Ringer Date: 04 Jul 02 - 08:56 AM Hmmm... hardly objective, I'd say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Celtic Soul Date: 04 Jul 02 - 09:16 AM Neither was the title, Ringer. Which is my one and only point. I am not saying the USA does not make mistakes. Only that all of her citizens don't get a vote *before* things happen. We only get one afterwards when election time rolls around. 20/20 hindsight never *prevented* a thing from happening, and until we are all privy to the inner workings of our government, the whole of the nation cannot be held responsible for things that the Government, or (as stated previously in this thread) one hotshot pilot, decide(s) to do. And if they make a really stupid unplanned mistake, even if we *were* all privy to the inner workings of our government, we would not be able to prevent it. OK...that's it for my political participation for the next few months. Time to go back to music and fun. Y'all have a good time in here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Celtic Soul Date: 04 Jul 02 - 09:19 AM Jeez! What is with all the duplicate posting? I sent this and another once, and I have multiples everywhere. Weird... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST,K'tilda Date: 04 Jul 02 - 09:45 AM [i]Even here in the UK a large proportion of thinking people hold America in contempt.[/i] Give me peace. As a former expat American I have to call you on this one. We'll have to substitute 'knee-jerk psudo-intellectual(usually student)types' for 'thinking' in that sentence and then we'll come closer to the mark. This is a ridiculous debate for this forum, as evidenced by me posting in disgust. I have been reading these forums for upwards of four years and count the number of times I've posted on my fingers. I usually come looking for information not half assed political debate. Instead of firing off the cuff armed with nothing but emotion, try doing a little research, look for the facts, THEN form an opinion. But I understand that's too much for some folks. Thanks to Sharon and Teribus for actually following through with the above. Can we end this now, please?
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: K'tilda Date: 04 Jul 02 - 09:49 AM See that? So disgusted I forgot to log in.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST,JTT Date: 04 Jul 02 - 09:49 AM Well, K'tilda, the US does some things that don't win it friends. Look at this biz about not wanting its citizens to be liable to trial in the International Criminal Court, where every other citizen of the world should be so liable. Maybe you don't know this, but UN troops - of which a proportion are Americans - are enthusiastic consumers of child prostitutes. Now, why shouldn't they be liable to trial for child abuse? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Celtic Soul Date: 04 Jul 02 - 10:36 AM K'tilda... Point well taken. I posted in anger, and should have done as I normally do, which is to take a moment and think it through. I apologize. Time to go back to what I am here for...music and fun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: RichM Date: 04 Jul 02 - 11:12 AM Kind of makes a mockery of the Nuremburg trials, doesn't it? My small opinion is that citizens ARE responsible for their government's actions, whether or not they directly participated. It's a tough stance, I know, and maybe unfair--but in this era of possible instant armageddon, we have to accept responsibility before we will be willing to work to change the mistakes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Paul from Hull Date: 04 Jul 02 - 02:15 PM I think Mark Steel of the Independent comes & Trolls on here...it seems very similar! *G* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Jul 02 - 02:47 PM "..(and the use of the spelling 'arse' pretty much jibes with other cultural/linguistic hints to tell us where most of these 'guest' postings are from..) "
It doesn't actually - it just indicates that the poster is from somewhere where they don't use the American spelling. Unless "where" in this context means the rest of the world outside the USA, which is rather a big where.
These thing always seem to start with denials anything happened, and then with suggestions that it was the other guys fault and so forth. And then gradually the truth leaks out. Not just Americans - the English do it, the Israelis do it. No doubt all kinds of terrorist organisations do it as well, except we don't get to hear the lying press statements from them, and if we do they don't get treated as anything other than lying propaganda.
One thing that is different about this - there isn't any evidence of any current significant armed opposition in Afghanistan, that makes it a bit different from some of the other situations where this kind of tragedy happens. It was supposed to be a liberating invasion, and the enemy have been defeated, or moved off to other parts of the world.
It's not frightened shell shocked soldiers firing in a panic, or breaking under the stress and turning into psychotic killers. It's more a question of bored fliers playing war games. Have any American air crew actually been killed by any kind of enemy on this war? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Chip2447 Date: 04 Jul 02 - 04:50 PM HMMMM, airplanes fly in the AIR...Firearms firying bullets into the AIR...Sounds to me like anti aircraft fire whether it was intentionally aimed at the aircraft or not. Chip2447 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST Date: 04 Jul 02 - 05:08 PM A pistol shooting 'at' a plane 15 000 feet up? I don't think so... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Jul 02 - 05:31 PM I have a feeling if it was some cowboy wedding with people shooting their guns off into the air it wouldn't have been seen as the same kind of threat.
This isn't a wartime mistake. The people who made it aren't living on their nerves in fear of imminent death.
There was a short war in Afghanistan, but that's over. There's a regime in place which is at least in some ways better than the Taliban, and it's not too stable, and the aim of the outside military presence is supposed to be to help it get more stable - and this kind of thing is the best possible way to destabilise it.
And you can guarantee there are now people out there with guns, and a determination to carry out blood vengeance form these killings of relatives. (Just as there probably would be if it had been a cowboy wedding and something like that had happened.)
Did any US flags fly at half mast today because of this? That's not a rhetorical question - it would have been the humane and reasonable thing to do, and there are a lot of humane and reasonable Americans.
Pedantic NB - Afghani is not an offensive word so far as I know. It's in no way analogous to Paki in that respect. It's more like Israeli. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST Date: 04 Jul 02 - 05:41 PM Well said McGrath If any of the survivors of this attack had the ability to retaliate by attacking the USA it would doubtless be seen as an 'unprovoked attack against the free world' With your God Bless America, God damn the rest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Teribus Date: 05 Jul 02 - 04:45 AM Kendall:
"..Finland, for many years, was the only country to pay their debt. Why did it take the UK so long? " The aid given to Britain was "Lend Lease" and I would imagine amounted to a damn sight more than the aid given to Finland under the Marshall plan. There is a saying that states something about people in glass houses. Perhaps you can offer some sort of explanation about America's outstanding account with the United Nations.
McGrath of Harlow: British, MoH, British. The only thing England has done independently from the other constituent parts of the United Kingdom since 1707 is field sports teams.
Also:
"This isn't a wartime mistake. The people who made it aren't living on their nerves in fear of imminent death." Considering the conditions and operations being conducted, your sentence, quoted above, clearly indicates that this is a situation you have never been in - I have. American and Afghan investigators are now on the scene - one of the things they have commented on is the lack of graves to support the numbers reportedly killed (only five found). Burials normally take place within 24 hours of death in Islamic countries - could be they were all at the point of contact and "vapourised", that doesn't square with the FO's statement of were the stray bomb landed.
"There was a short war in Afghanistan, but that's over. " Don't you believe it. The border with Pakistan is like a collander, and when things got tough for the Taliban and Al Qaeda they slipped into Pakistan. The type of operation required to ensure that those groups do not reform and become a threat to the people of Afghanistan is similar in nature to the operations mounted in Malaysia, those lasted from 1949 to 1964. The harder and longer you pursue them the weaker they get, while at the same time the government of Afghanistan gets stronger and more stable - to the benefit of the Afghan people as a whole.
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Wolfgang Date: 05 Jul 02 - 04:48 AM Have any American air crew actually been killed by any kind of enemy on this war? In the first weeks of the war, when a US helicopter went down and several US soldiers were killed in the border region to Pakistan, the Taleban claimed to have shot it down. The US spokesman denied these claims. So if you are more inclined to believed the US spokesman the answer to that question is 'no'. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 05 Jul 02 - 08:13 AM Wolfgang, I don't think it's questioned that some of the por-US combatants have killed each other, but so far as I know none has been killed by the enemy. Here's a clicky to that Independent article referred to by one of the anonymous guests. The Independent. It's quite amusing. A couple of days ago the Daily Mirror, the second-biggest daily in the UK devoted its front page to the fact that the US has now killed twice as many civilians as died on Sept 11. Might it be possible to construct an exit strategy around this distinguished victory in the field of battle? Kendall, you need to major in history but pick up some half-baked gossip about war debts? Maybe if you go for a higher degree in current affairs, you'll be able to answer that question about what the US owes to the UN (under rules to which the US subscribed). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Wolfgang Date: 05 Jul 02 - 09:41 AM Fionn, the helicopter crashed with several dead that's sure. Nobody has ever claimed that crash to be caused by friendly fire. The last I read was that two different claims were standing: The Taleban claimed that it was their fire that brought the helicopter down, the US military said it could be due to engine failure. All I was saying is that 'no' is not an undisputed answer to McGrath's question. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: Wolfgang Date: 05 Jul 02 - 09:54 AM O.K., I have found it and must admit that I have failed to read that the "engine failure" explanantion was retracted later by the USA. Read here and you'll see that the only correct response (unless you assume that both parties lie) to McGrath's question is 'yes'. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: GUEST,Claymore Date: 05 Jul 02 - 10:48 PM Thats crap! 1. One of the first Americans killed was a SEAL who fell out of the chopper when it was hit by an RPG and surveillence photos established that he was captured and later executed by the Taliban. 2. It has been real clear that the 52 strike was not the cause of the casualties; the BDAs have established where these bombs hit and none of them were near the village. 3. I have not seen any information on the cause or caliber of the weapons that hit the children. If it's 7.62 short round ammo, then it's Russian or Chinese AK-47 stuff and the tables get turned fast. And we'll know if it's our shapnel from the Puff soon enough (powder composition, metal analysis etc). 4. As one of the Marines said of the last wedding that was suposedly bombed "The bride wore a beard and carried an AK-47". 5. As for flags at half mast, if we fly it one day for each of the American victims, we still have ten years to go... 6. As for the "short war being over", what color is the sky on your planet? That statement requires its own exhibition at the Air and Space Museum in DC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bomb an Afghan Wedding. Well done USA! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Jul 02 - 07:15 AM "if we fly it one day for each of the American victims" - I assume that means September 11th (by no means all those killed were Americans). I don't think anyone would suggest that the people killed in that wedding party had anything to do with the who killing on September 11th. I think it would have been a good gesture when something terrible is done on the eve of July 4th.
If noone actually did take their flag down to half mast, I'd be a bit surprised really. |