Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo

Subject: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 11:14 AM

I am trying to find the origin of "Johnny Come Down to Hilo"
It is listed in one source as a Broadside. I am interested in finding the African-American roots to this sea ballad.

Could this be related to: "John come Down de Holler" by Dan Emmett. Does anyone have Emmett's lyrics?

What are the minstrel roots to "Johnny Come Down to Hilo"?

-Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: JOHNNY COME DOWN DE HOLLOW
From: masato sakurai
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 12:23 PM

JOHNNY COME DOWN TO HILO in the DT.

From The Traditional Ballad Index:

Johnny Walk Along to Hilo

DESCRIPTION: Shanty, with chorus, "Johnny walk along to Hilo, Oh, poor old man, Oh, wake her, oh, shake, her, Oh, wake that gal with the blue dress on!" The verses usually consist of a scattering of lines from assorted Black and minstrel songs
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1914 (Sharp-EFC)
KEYWORDS: shanty nonballad
FOUND IN: US(MA)
REFERENCES (6 citations):
Doerflinger, p. 72, "Johnny Walk Along to Hilo" (1 text, 1 tune)
Colcord, p. 102, "Johnny Come Down to Hilo" (1 text, 1 tune)
Hugill, pp. 266-268, "Johnny Come Down to Hilo," "The Gal With the Blue Dress" (3 texts, 3 tunes) [AbEd, pp. 196-197]
Sharp-EFC, XVI, p. 19, "O Johnny Come to Hilo" (1 text, 1 tune)
Lomax-ABFS, pp. 483-485, "Johnny Come Down to Hilo" (1 text, 1 tune)
DT, JOHNHILO*
Roud #650
RECORDINGS:
Pete Seeger, "Johnny Come Down to Hilo" (on PeteSeeger04)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Uncle Ned" (floating lyrics)
ALTERNATE TITLES:
Johnny Come Down the Backstay
Johnny Come to Hilo
Shake Her, Johnny, Shake Her!
NOTES: Doerflinger says of this song that it was "doubtless invented by colored shellbacks, but [was] just as popular with whites" -- and indeed, Doerflinger's version is in white dialect while Lomax has a Black text. Even more interestingly, they don't have any lyrics in common except the chorus -- Doerflinger's only lyric is from "Uncle Ned," which the Lomax version does not quote. - RBW
File: Doe072a

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There're are two seemingly related songs in John Greenway's American Folksongs of Protest (1953; rpt. Octagon Press, 1970, pp. 94-95) [no mention of Emmett; without music]:

JOHNNY COME DOWN DE HOLLOW

Johnny come down de hollow--
  Oh, hollow.
De nigger trader got he--
  Oh, hollow.
De speculator bought me--
  Oh, hollow.
I'm sold for silver dollars--
  Oh, hollow.
Boys, go catch de pony--
  Oh, hollow.
Bring him round de corner--
  Oh, hollow.
I'm goin' way to Georgia--
  Oh, hollow.
Boys, good-bye forever.
  Oh, hollow.
 --H.M. Henry, The Police Control of the Slave in South Carolina, p. 56.

HILO! HILO!

William Rino sold Henry Silvers--
  Hilo! Hilo!
Sold him to de Georgy trader--
  Hilo! Hilo!
His wife se cried, and children bawled--
  Hilo! Hilo!
Sold him to de Georgy trader--
  Hilo! Hilo!
  --J.D. Long, Pictures of Salvery, Philadelphia, 1857, p. 198.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: masato sakurai
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 12:49 PM

"Johnny come down de hollow" is quoted in William Cullen Bryant, CORN-SHUCKING IN SOUTH CAROLINA--FROM THE LETTERS OF A TRAVELLER (BARNWELL DISTRICT, South Carolina, March 29, 1843) (Click here and scroll down), where the words are "De nigger-trader got me." In Roger D. Abrahams, Singing the Master: The Emergence of African-American Culture in the Plantation South (1992; Penguin, 1993), this song is in quotations from Bryant's Letter and William Wells Brown, M.D., My Southern Home, or the South and Its People (Boston, A.G. Brown and Co.. 1880) [pp. 224 and 249 respectively].

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 12:51 PM

Interesting, Masato. What you seem to be saying is the earliest forms may to be related to "Shallo Brown," as both versions you presented above seem to scan to that chantey. I wonder where and when they diverged.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 01:55 PM

Hilo got worked into so many shanties that I wonder if they just enjoyed the name, with its internal contradiction.
Away....
Keith.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 02:03 PM

Masato-

Great work! I bet Emmett version of "John Come Down de Holler" is based on an earlier African-American version.

Here are lyric versions in the DT:
HILO, BOYS, HILO
TOM'S GONE TO HILO 2
CAN'T YE HILO?
TOMMYS GONE TO HILO
JOHNNY COME DOWN TO HILO
HILO, JOHNNY BROWN
RANZO RAY

There are three Shallow Brown versions including, HULLABALOO BELAY in the DT.

There are also fiddle tune lyrics that have Hilo (Shilo) in them. Perhaps there is also a connection there.

Does anyone think that this is a one of the origins of the "Shallow Brown" "Hilo" and Hog-eye" sea shanty songs?

Are the tunes related also?

-Richie

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 03:22 PM

As with sets of lyrics, there are so many chantey melodies that it is very difficult to say. The two versions that Masato posted look as though they were sung slowly, possibly as a field holler for swinging a hoe or cultivating. The other two you inquired about are much livelier.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: curmudgeon
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 03:50 PM

Terry includes this song in "The Shanty Book" Part I, 1921, and comments, "This is clearly of Negro origin. I learn't several variants of it, but for its present form I am indebted to Capt. W. I. Dowdy."

Compare with "Gal With the Blue Dress On," as sung by A.L. Lloyd on the Prestige collection, "A Sailor's Garland." Here, Lloyd writes, "A halyard shanty, most shelbacks say, though at least one 19th collection names it a pumping song. Known to Liverpool seamen, but sounding much like a Negro composition."

Shake her and we'll wake her -- Tom

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 03:53 PM

Johnny Come Down to Hilo, and Hogeye Man, have several interchangable verses. See threads 11353 and 28208, among others. Hogeye and Johnny    
Shallow Brown has some of the same verses. See DT and posts to 7955 Shallow
Some random verses from Johnny-Hilo, not noted in skimming through the threads:
My little gal her hair is red
It's curly all over but not on her head.

But this little gal, she put some hair,
She put some hair on top of his head.

Her eyes are blue, her dress the same,
But she always fell asleep before I came.
I think these are from an old bawdy lp by Oscar Brand.

These were sung by Jesse Schaffer Johnny
My wife died in Tennessee,
They sent her jawbone back to me.

I set that jawbone on the fence,
And I ain't heard nothing but the jawbone since.

So hand me down my riding cane,
I'm off to see Miss Sarah Jane.

Keith, Hilo, pronounced He'-lo, was well-known in the 19th century. It was an important whaling, supply and victualizing port as well as a "playground" for the seamen, along with a similar port at Lahaina on Maui. Its port was a protected narrow horseshoe. In the 20th century, the big tourist ships came, but facilities were largely destroyed by a huge tidal wave whose effect was magnified by the bay's shape.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: curmudgeon
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 04:44 PM

More likely, Ylo or Hilo in Peru. Hawaiian place names were not part of the merchant sailor's language until late in the 19th century. While the Sandwich Islands were common R & R spots for whalers, they were not commercial ports, whereas Hilo, Peru was important in the nitrate trade.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 05:21 PM

Well, apparently a plantation version can be traced back to the 1860's
, as recalled by Solomon Northup, one of the best known Black itinerant musicians of the 19th century according to Eileen Southern in her book THE MUSIC OF BLACK AMERICANS. This fragment is what's called a "patting song", one that was used for dancing when there weren't any instruments:

Who's been here since I've been gone?
Pretty little gal with a josey on.
Hog eye!
Old hog eye!
And Hosey too!
Never seen the like since I was born,
Here comes a little gal wid a josey on.
Hog eye!
Old hog eye!
And Hosey too!

There seems to be several "birds to kill" with this fragment, including our old friend "Hog Eye."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 10:07 PM

I was wondering about the connection of the words; "Hilo" to "Shilo" to "Shallow". Is the folk process at work here?

Could this connect with the "Limber Jim," "Jim Along Josie," "Seven Up," "Shiloh" "Black Them Boots" family?

-Richie

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 10:38 PM

Just a quick note on Charley Noble's post:

See the "Jim Along Josie" Thread also.

Yaller Gal with a Josey On, The
Baltimore: F. D. Benteen, 1849.
As sung by Nightingale Ethiopian Serenaders

I see'd a dashing yaller gal,
One day upon the levee,
Her form was round her step was light
But wa'nt her bustle heavy!

She cast a tender glance on me,
And my heart was gone Oh!
She was the taring yaller gal,
That had a josey on,

Chorus: Oh yes, we all remember her
She used to hoe the corn,
She's the dashing yaller gal
That had a Josey on.

This might be where the expression "Pretty little gal with a josey on" comes from.

Also a Josie might be a slang for "a Joseph" which was a woman's riding cloak.

Interesting that this is mixed with "Hog-eye" lyrics.

-Richie

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 11:47 PM

A correction. Curmudgeon is probably right (hell, more than probably).
In 1854, the whole of Hawai'i received only 148 steam frigates, the great majority at Honolulu, which had become by far the greatest of the Hawaiian ports in amount of trade. 2500 men on whaling vessels did port in Hilo in 1854, but many more landed in Honolulu, and even Lahaina was more important than Hilo.
In 1854, 1,600,000 gallons of whale oil were transhipped in Hawaii, the great majority at Honolulu. Figures from American Memory.
Where the name of the song Johnny Came Down to Hilo came from, I don't know. Ylo would be pronounced E'-lo normally, close to Hilo, but how did sailors pronounce these names?

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 12:54 AM

When I moved to Hilo in 1994, I was very excited to think that I was standing by the very bay that John had come down to. Sadly, I wasn't. As the song says, "Oh Hilo town is in Peru..." Here's what Stan Hugill has to say about it:

"...we will now run through those worksongs woven aroung the word 'Hilo'. Hilo is a port in the Hawaiian group, and, although occasionally shellbacks may have been referring to this locality, usually it was a port in South America of which they were singing--the Peruvian nitrate port of Ilo. But in some of these Hilo shanties it was not a port, either in Hawaii or Peru, to which they were referring. Sometimes the word was a substitute for a 'do', a 'jamboree', or even a 'dance'. And in some cases the word was used as a verb--to 'hilo' somebody or something. In this sense its origin and derivation is a mystery. Furthermore, since shanties were not composed in the normal manner, by putting them down, it is on paper quite possible many of these 'hilos' are nothing more than 'high-low', as Miss Colcord has it in her version of We'll Ranzo Ray. Take your pick!"

Stan includes several Shallow Brown shanties as a "detour" in this chapter, indicating there is a definite relation. He also has this to say about the song in question, Johnny Come Down to Hilo, which accords with what has been said previously [politically incorrect phraseology not edited]:

"Now we come to the last of our Hilo series, one well known nowadays, thanks to Terry's making it popular in schools, and so on. This is Johnny, Come Down to Hilo... The tune is Irish in origin and the wording is a mixture of Negro catch-phrases, of lines from Negro and nigger minstrel ditties, and odd bits from other shanties, e.g. Poor Old Man and The Gal With the Blue Dress... The normal use of Johnny, Come Down to Hilo was at the capstan when a steady march round was needed."

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 03:55 AM

By the way, the cruise ships still come to Hilo. The reason they don't come there as often as they do to Maui and Kona is because of the weather, not because of the effects of the tsunami ("tidal wave" is a misnomer).

Two big tsunami hit Hilo in the 20th century, in 1946 and 1960. But things have been pretty well cleaned up since then! Here are some photos from the 1960 tsunami, and here's some information about the tsunami and its effects on Hilo. (In the photo site, the first picture is of a group of people standing at the water's edge, hoping to see the water rush out before the first wave arrives! I don't know what happened to them, but it just goes to show you that stupidity knows no boundaries...)

We actually had a tsunami hit the island soon after I moved there in 1994. We left town and went inland to Waimea. The biggest wave turned out to be 18 inches high! Apparently while seismic analysis can help the experts predict that a tsunami will arrive, they can't tell just how big it will be until it reaches land.

Aloha,
Mark
(We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread)

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 08:43 AM

Here is some info using "Shiloh" lyric the from the Limber Jim/Buckeye Jim family:

From the O.E.D. he found an item on "limber-holes" and "limber-ropes". He says that "Limber-holes are holes made in the floor timbers of a ship to allow bilge water to pass through [along with mud from boots etc.] for pumping." And a "limber-rope" is a "rope used to clean the limber-holes so the stuff can go through for pumping out." Perhaps there is a shanty connection for "Limber Jim"/"Buckeye Jim".

Here are two lyrics from Masato's post above:

William Rino sold Henry Silvers--
Hilo! Hilo!

Johnny come down de hollow--
Oh, hollow.

Ruth Crawford Seeger's AMERICAN FOLK SONGS FOR CHILDREN, pp. 96-97, called "Scraping Up Sand In The Bottom Of The Sea". The chorus goes:

Scraping up sand in the bottom of the sea, Shiloh, Shiloh,
Scraping up sand in the bottom of the sea, Shiloh, Liza Jane.

From Black them Boots:

Black those shoes and make them shine,
Shiloh, Shiloh,
Black those shoes and make them shine,
Shiloh, Liza Jane.

Excerpt from Limber Jim:
Limber Jim,
[All.] Shiloh!
Talk it agin,
[All.] Shiloh!
Walk back in love,
[All.] Shiloh!
You turtle-dove,
[All.] Shiloh!

There seems to be some similarities between Masato's posted songs and Limber Jim.

Does anyone have Daniel Emmett's "John come Down de Holler"? It seems remarkable that Emmett's music is so hard to find considering his stature as an American arranger and composer.

-Richie

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 09:11 AM

Richie-

You may actually be making some progress here!

I can't find Daniel Decateur Emmett's "John come Down de Holler" but did find another reference to a "Jim Along Josey" which was another rewrite of a plantation song by the White/Black-faced minstrels of the 1840's.

BUT how about this fragment from an early 19th century field worksong (also from THE MUSIC OF BLACK AMERICANS, pp. 153):

Oh, this is the day to roll and go,
Hill-up, boys, hilo;
Oh, this is the day to roll and go,
Hill-up, boys, hilo.

Again, two birds with a single stone, "hilo" and "roll and go."

Still curious about what a "josey" might be, a riding cloak doesn't seem to ring true for a field girl.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: masato sakurai
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 09:29 AM

Not found, but mentioned in Hans Nathan, Dan Emmett and the Rise of Early Negro Minstrelsy (U of Oklahoma Pr, 1962, 1977, pp. 241-242):

Though the versification reveals Emmett's hand, numerous lines and images were nevertheless lifted, according to professional custom, from earlier minstrel songs. Appearing alongside passages from English folk texts and such urban colloquialism as "o.k." are many bits from the workaday reality of the slave, as well as such expressions as "going home," "traveling a rocky road," and "joining the union," which, though stripped of their religious meaning, derive from Negro spirituals. The following song, which was sung in the early forties by colored plantation hands in South Carolina as they shucked corn, is a good example:

Johnny come down de hollow. Oh, hollow!
Johnny come down de hollow. Oh, hollow!
De nigger-trader got me. Oh, hollow!
De speculator bought me. Oh, hollow!
I'm sold for silver dollars. Oh, hollow!
Boys, go catch de pony. Oh, hollow!
Bring him round de corner. Oh, hollow!
I'm goin' away to Georgia. Oh, hollow!
Boys, good-bye forever. Oh, hollow!*

Emmett remembered almost all of these lines when he composed his walk-arounds. The opening he borrowed literally for his "John Come down de Hollow," and the rest he paralleled, in practically the same sequence, in his "Road to Georgia" and its alternate text version "Road to Richmond" as follows: "De niggar trader tink me nice" ("De speculator tink me nice"), "De white folks sell me for half price" (later: "We'll fotch a thousand dollars down"), and "Under way, under way Ho! we are on de way to Georgia."
[*Quoted in Norris Yates, "Four Plantation Songs Noted by William Cullen Bryant," Southern Folklore Quarterly (December, 1951)]

~Masato

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: masato sakurai
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 09:54 AM

Not the same song, but there's the line: "John come down de hollow." Quoted from
Francis Fedric, Slave Life in Virginia and Kentucky; or, Fifty Years of Slavery in the Southern States of America (1863):

[Page 47]
In the autumn, about the 1st of November, the slaves commence gathering the Indian-corn, pulling it off the stalk, and throwing it into heaps. Then it is carted home, and thrown into heaps sixty or seventy yards long, seven or eight feet high, and about six or seven feet wide. Some of the masters make their slaves shuck the corn. All the slaves stand on one side of the heap, and throw the ears over, which
[Page 48]
are then cribbed. This is the time when the whole country far and wide resounds with the corn-songs. When they commence shucking the corn, the master will say, "Ain't you going to sing any to-night?" The slaves say, "Yers, Sir." One slave will begin:--

                         "Fare you well, Miss Lucy.
                         ALL. John come down de hollow."

The next song will be:--

                         "Fare you well, fare you well.
                         ALL. Weell ho. Weell ho.
                         CAPTAIN. Fare you well, young ladies all.
                         ALL. Weell. ho. Weell ho.
                         CAPTAIN. Fare you well, I'm going away.
                         ALL. Weell ho. Weell ho.
                         CAPTAIN. I'm going away to Canada.
                         ALL. Weell ho. Weell ho."

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 01:02 PM

Masato- Good connection with Emmett. I suspected this was a similar song.

Charley- I had found two references to a Josey/Josie as an undergarment. Both were unsubstantiated and one (when contacted by Guest in the Jim Along Josey post) admitted it was not based on fact.
Look at the Jim Along Josey thread.

Is it possible that "in some of these Hilo shanties it was not a port, either in Hawaii or Peru, to which they were referring? Sometimes the word was a substitute for a 'do', a 'jamboree', or even a 'dance'. And in some cases the word was used as a verb--to 'hilo' somebody or something. In this sense its origin and derivation is a mystery." From Previous Post by Mark Cohen.

This seems more likely to be the origin of the term, "Hilo" "Shiloh"
"Shallow" etc.

Is perhaps "Limber Jim" a sea shanty also that is mixed with the
"Martin Said To His Man," registered in 1588, type songs-Kitty Alone, Johnny Fool, Hurrah, Lie!, The Bed-time Song, Who's the Fool Now?, Old Blind Drunk John, Fooba-Wooba John? The songs are mostly nonsense songs with animals. Perhaps Turtle Old Man can check into this.

-Richie

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 01:38 PM

Masato, you seem to have pinned it down pretty well. Weell ho seems like a pretty good antecedent for Hilo.
Your link to Francis Fedric doesn't work. I tried http://docsouth.unc.edu/fedric/menu.html and that didn't work either.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 02:15 PM

When I first read the lines with josie-josey I wondered if it was a sack-like coverall dress. Then I found the garment called a joseph (a cloak) defined in the dictionary. Thinking of minstrel get-ups , including the long blue coat, I thought it likely.
The 1849 song posted by Richie says "wa'nt her bustle heavy." Does this refer to a "big bottom" or to the undergarment pad addition? The word bustle for the big pad was in print by the 1790s and the bustle was used off and on through much of the 19th century. Who has a fashion history?
Farther on in the same song, she has a josey on. Could it be another name for a bustle? Seems it is either that, or a garment which covers the gal. For slaves, often only one layer was both outer and under garment. Was this called a josey? (Or is it just a nonsense word?).
That's a problem with these words; meanings change with time, or they become nonsense. Very difficult to pin down.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Dead Horse
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 03:24 PM

Shallow and Shiloh are far more likely to be corruptions of Challow, which was a description of negroes, and refers to the colour of skin. The fairer the better of course! The darker the skin, the more *uncivilised*. I'd go with Hugill, for what it's worth.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:45 PM

Challow =?? Sallow (= salloh, salow, salo, etc.). Used as a description of light yellow or dirty-grayish. "A man may be high colored or sallowe colored and yet not blacke;" usage goes back to the 16th century.
Source of challow?

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: masato sakurai
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 08:35 PM

My link to FRANCIS FEDRIC works.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 09:31 PM

Fine now. Server or website off for a while, I guess. Interesting story.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,Barry witout a cookie
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 02:03 AM

From the West Indies.


Poor ole man he's sick in bed

He want somebody for rub his head


Johnny come down to the Hilo

Poor ole man.


Barry

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 07:55 AM

Barry-

It's true that a lot of the lines in the verses cited above appear in West Indies sea shanties, but the plantation work songs seem to date back further, at least as far back as the 1840's. We need some diaries to sort this out, and I bet someone has an attic full.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 08:17 AM

One location on-line lists a broadside as an early source. It's not clear if it's an American or English broadside but I would presume it's from the mid- 1800's. Can anyone locate this broadside?

-Richie

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 09:32 AM

By the way, as in thread drift, if anyone comes across a minstrel version of the West Indies Blues while they're researching the above, please post your comments here or on my old thread of that name. The verses I suspect of being minstrel in origin probably date from the 1890's when my mother's nursemaid, Ella Madison, was touring Europe with a Black minstrel group:

West Indies Blues

Been all over dis doggone world,
Even been as far as China,
Worstes' place I ever did see
Was Charleston, South Carolina.

I'se goin' home,
Goin' 'cross de water,
Make my livin' sure's you bo'n,
Diving after quarters.
Got dem Wes' Indies blues.

Charleston folks eat alligator meat,
Fried wi' rice and taters,
Bestes' eatin' I ever did have
Was monkey hips an' tomaters.

I'se goin' home,
Get meself a carriage;
Get meself a monkey gal,
An' make monkey marriage.
I'se goin' home.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: Lyr.Add. Round' de Corn, Sally
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 11:27 AM

More thread creep but I'm on a roll. Most of us nautical singers are familar with the old sea shanty "Round the Corner, Sally" in which the corner refered to has been ascribed to Cape Horn. Well, try this old plantation corn husking song on for size:

ROUN' DE CORN, SALLY

(corn husking song collected by slaveholder James Hungerford's The Old Plantation and What I Gathered There in an Autumn Month, c. 1832, quoted in THE MUSIC OF BLACK AMERICANS by Eileen Southern, pp. 180)

Grand Chorus:

Hooray, hooray, ho! Roun' de corn, Sally!
Hooray for all de lubly (lovely) ladies! Roun' de corn, Sally!
Hooray, hooray, ho! Roun' de corn, Sally!
Hooray for all de lubly ladies! Roun' de corn, Sally!

Dis lub's er (a) thing dat's sure to hab you, Roun' de corn, Sally!
He hole (hold) you tight, when once he grab you, Roun' de corn, Sally!
Un (an) ole (old) un (one) ugly, young un (one) pretty, Roun' de corn, Sally!
You needen try when once he git you, Roun' de corn, Sally! (CHO)

Dere's Mr. Travers lub Miss Jinny, Roun' de corn, Sally!
He thinks she is us (as) good us any, Roun' de corn, Sally!
He comes from church wid her er (on) Sunday, Roun' de corn, Sally!
Un (He) don't go back ter town till Monday, Roun' de corn, Sally! (CHO)

My interpretations in ()'s.
Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 12:25 PM

Damn! Just noticed that Forebitter from Mystic Seaport has made the same connection between "Roun' the Corn, Sally" and "Round the Corner, Sally" in the notes to their fine CD LIND OF CHAIN.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 01:43 PM

"Round De Corn, Sally," first collected when used as a rowing song, had at least one more verse in Hungerford, two lines of which are given, along with yours, in Dena J. Epstein, "Sinful Tunes and Spirituals." Are the other two lines in your reference?
Epstein gives the sheet music on p. 169 of her book.
Filling in Charley Noble's post:

Dere's Mr Lucas lub Miss T'resser,
Un ebery thing he does ter please her;

Quoting from Epstein (from Hungerford); "When a passenger (on the boat, coastal Maryland) requested "Round de Corn, Sally," she was told 'Dat's a corn song, un we'll hab ter sing it slow ter row to." They sang it, improvising words to fit the members of the party.
Other songs, such as "Poor Rosy, Poor Gal," could be sung fast to grind hominy and slow to row by, just as a corn song could be adapted for rowing.
The corn shucking song quoted by Masato, and others here all could be used as rowing songs from the east coast, Maryland and the Carolinas to Florida.
This one was a rowing song, also from Hungerford (? In another thread also? Seem to remember that at least one of the variants was posted, but it fits in the context of this thread).

SOLD OFF TO GEORGY

Farewell, fellow servants! O-ho! O-ho!
I'm gwine away to leabe you; O-ho! O-ho!
I'm gwine to leabe de ole county; O-ho! O-ho!
I'm sold off to Georgy! O-ho! O-ho!

Farewell, old plantation, O-ho! O-ho!
Farewell, de old quarter, O-ho! O-ho!
Un daddy, un mammy; O-ho! O-ho!
Un marster, un missus! O-ho! O-ho!

My dear wife un one chile, O-ho! O-ho!
My poor heart is breaking; O-ho! O-ho!
No more shall I see you, O-ho! O-ho!
Oh! No more foreber! O-ho! O-ho!

The response on the part of the rowers, O-ho!, easily changes to "Weel-ho!," "Yoe! Yoee!," "Shilo," "Hollow!," "Hilo!" noted in other songs.
This song appears in many guises in various references. "Sold off to Georgy" (or other far south plantation region) seems to have been a constant fear of slaves working in the more liberal coastal Carolinas.

Aye! Ayee!, is another of the chorused responses in a rowing song (This one has to be called a chantey!).

We are going down to Georgia, boys, Aye! Aye!
To see the pretty girls, boys; Yoe! Yoe!
We'll give 'em a pint of brandy, boys, Aye! Aye!
An a hearty kiss, besides, boys. Yoe! Yoe!
etc., etc.
"The words were nonsense; anything, in fact, which came into their heads." Heard in 1808, traveling by boat from Purrysburgh to Savannah, GA, by boat. John Lambert, Travels, II, p. 253-54.

Others have written of the singing of the Galley slaves on the larger rivers and estuary boats and canoes of the coastal and riverine South.
Unfortunately, secular songs were seldom collected. Major attention was given to the spirituals on the part of collectors.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 01:46 PM

Forgot to note that the Lambert-collected song is also from Dena Epstein's study of pre-Civil War songs.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 09:37 AM

Guest-

There are no other verses of "Roun' the Corner, Sally" in THE MUSIC OF BLACK AMERICANS, pp. 180. However, the Forebitter version which I just listened to again begins with the grand chorus and the first verse as in the above and then adds different verses, one of which is typically sung in "Bully in the Alley." When I get some time I'll post their version here. It's a good listen and the tune is probably similar to the one notated in the above.

There are aslo a lot of versions of "Goin' Down to Georgia."

We needs a time machine to sort them out!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 07:54 PM

Hi Charley, I wasn't making a point with that post, just adding an extra to the pot. It'd be quite the ramble to dicuss origins & to put a time line up for what dated where & which came from which. Though I do have strong notions as to what the dimise of what Whall calls real/new shanties & who's golden age of the shanty came when where & how? IMHO. See ya soon somewhere. Barry

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:45 PM

refresh!

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: doc.tom
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:02 PM

A good refreshment, Charlie

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: stallion
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 06:53 PM

interesting Charley, so the version ron sings is the Doerflinger version and not the Lomax version, does the Lomax version predate Doerflinger?

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 01:15 PM

Doerflinger provides no date, nor useful data on origin.
"....medley of catch phrases from old Negro and minstrel songs."
An unsupported statement by Doerflinger says, "Dooubtless invented by colored shellbacks...."
Lomax is equally unreliable, quoting from Colcord, giving a chantey with minstrel phrases and Liverpool fragments and repeating her statement "There can be no doubt of the Negro origin of the next shanty;...."

I nebber see de like since I been born,
When a big buck nigger wid his sea boots on,
Says "Johnny come down to Hilo,
Poor old man!
Oh, wake her, oh, shake her,
Oh, wake dat gal wid de blue dress on!
When Johnny comes down to Hilo,
Poor old man!"

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 01:20 PM

Liverpool and other English sailors, not Blacks, made good money screwing cotton in Mobile, as pointed out in another thread; both Colcord and Lomax seem to have been unaware of this when they published. The pay was higher than shipboard pay.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 05:44 PM

Without going off into all the cross references and tangents on this BODY of song, and sticking just to the songs with a J(OHNNY) coming down", here's an attempt at a chronology of references. Some has been posted already, but just to get the ducks in a row...

1863        Fedric, Francis. _Slave Life in Virginia and Kentucky_. London: Wertheim, Macintosh, and Hunt.

Frederick (Fedric), an escaped slave, lived circa 1805-1882. Refers to a corn-shucking circa 1820s-1833 on a Virginia or Kentucky plantation.


In the autumn, about the 1st of November, the slaves commence gathering the Indian-corn, pulling it off the stalk, and throwing it into heaps. Then it is carted home, and thrown into heaps sixty or seventy yards long, seven or eight feet high, and about six or seven feet wide. Some of the masters make their slaves shuck the corn. All the slaves stand on one side of the heap, and throw the ears over, which are then cribbed. This is the time when the whole country far and wide resounds with the corn-songs. When they commence shucking the corn, the master will say, "Ain't you going to sing any to-night?" The slaves say, "Yers, Sir." One slave will begin:--

"Fare you well, Miss Lucy. 
                        
ALL. John come down de hollow."


***

1850        Bryant, William Cullen. _Letters of a Traveller_. London: Richard Bentley.

Refers to a corn-shucking bee on a South Carolina plantation in March 1843.

The light-wood-fire was made, and the negroes dropped in from the neighboring plantations, singing as they came. The driver of the plantation, a colored man, brought out baskets of corn in the husk, and piled it in a heap; and the negroes began to strip the husks from the ears, singing with great glee as they worked, keeping time to the music, and now and then throwing in a joke and an extravagant burst of laughter. The songs were generally of a comic character; but one of them was set to a singularly wild and plaintive air, which some of our musicians would do well to reduce to notation. These are the words:

Johnny come down de hollow.
             Oh hollow!
Johnny come down de hollow.
             Oh hollow !
De nigger-trader got me.
             Oh hollow!
De speculator bought me.
             Oh hollow !
I'm sold for silver dollars,
             Oh hollow !
Boys, go catch the pony.
             Oh hollow!
Bring him round the corner.
             Oh hollow!
I'm goln' away to Georgia.
             Oh hollow!
Boys, good-by forever!
             Oh hollow!


***

1856        Olmsted, Frederick Law. _A Journey in the Seaboard Slave States_. New York: Dix and Edwards.

It is 1853 and Olmsted is traveling on a steamboat on the Red River to Shrevport, LA. Though Olmsted observed and mentioned chanties earlier in his career, he make no comparison or recognition here.


" John come down in de holler,
   Oh, work and talk and holler,
   Oh, John, come down in de holler,
Ime gwine away to-morrow.
Oh, John, &c.
Ime gwine away to marry,
Oh, John, &c.

Get my cloves in order,
Oh. John, &c.
I'se gwine away to-morrow,
Oh, John, &c.
Oh, work and talk and holler,
Oh, John, &c.
Massa guv me dollar,
Oh, John, &c.
Don't cry yer eyes out, honey,
Oh, John, &c.
I'm gwine to get some money,
Oh, John, &c.
But I'll come back to-morrow,
Oh, John, &c.
So work and talk and holler,
Oh, John, &c.
Work all day and Sunday,
Oh, John, &c.
Massa get de money,
Oh, John, &c.

After the conclusion of this song, and after the negroes had left the bows, and were coming aft along the guards, we passed two or three colored nurses, walking with children on the river bank; as we did so the singers jumped on some cotton bales, bowed very low to them, took off their hats, and swung and waved them, and renewed their song:

God bless you all, dah ! ladies !
Oh, John come down in de holler,
Farwell, de Lord be wid you, honey,
            Oh, John, come down, &c.
Done cry yerself to def,
            Oh, John. &c.
I'm gwine down to New Orleans,
            Oh, John. &c
I'll come back, dough, bime-by,
            Oh, John, &c,
So far-you-well, my honey,
            Oh, John, &c.
Far-you-well, all you dah, shore,
            Oh, John, &c.
And save your cotton for de Dalmo!
Oh, John, &c

These references suggest quite strongly that the song (or the phrase that was the basis for later songs) was a part of African-American folk-song, predating and/or distinct from both popular minstrel song and modern chanties.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 05:57 PM

The next reference I have, now as a chanty, is not until,

1914        Bullen, Frank. T. and W.F. Arnold. _Songs of Sea Labour_. London: Orpheus Music Publishing.

Bullen, born c.1858, first went to sea in 1869 at age 11. He was a chantyman in the 1870s.

He claimed that he last heard this song off Calcutta, in the 1870s, I believe.

…brings to my mind most vividly a dewy morning in Garden Reach where we lay just off the King of Oudh's palace awaiting our permit to moor. I was before the mast in one of Bates' ships, the "Herat," and when the order came at dawn to man the windlass I raised this Chanty and my shipmates sang the chorus as I never heard it sung before or since…I have never heard that noble Chanty sung since…

Bullen gives the lyrics in a Black eye-dialect, suggesting that the song was associated (by him) with Black Americans or Caribbeans.

10. Johnny Come Down to Hilo.

I nebber seen de like, Since I ben born
When a 'Merican man wid de sea boots on
Says Johnny come down to Hilo.
Poor old man!
Oh! wake her! Oh! Shake her
Oh wake dat gal wid der blue dress on,
When Johnny comes down to Hilo!
Poor old man!

This song, if the same, certainly developed since the plantation song. I would guess that it has touches of minstrel style to it, but it may have been developed among chantymen. I have no info to speculate further, only that "girl with the blue dress" and "poor old man" were minstrel phrases.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 06:16 PM

In the same year, we have this:

1914        Sharp, Cecil K. 1914. _English Folk-Chanteys_. London: Simpkin, Marshall, Hamilton, Kent & Co. Ltd.

Sharp collected it from John Short. Short ("Yankee Jack") started his deepwater career circa 1857/8 and retired from that circa 1873-75.

16. O Johnny Come to Hilo.

O a poor old man came a-riding by,
Says I : old man your horse will die.
O Johnny come to Hilo,
O poor old man.
O wake her, O shake her,
O shake that girl with the blue dress on,
O Johnny come to Hilo;
Poor old man.

This version suggests more of the influence of the "poor old man" minstrel song about the dying horse.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 06:34 PM

Terry presented the song, in brief, in the following. Though he says it was "known to every sailor," compared to other chanties it wasn't mentioned much up to that point.

1920        Terry, R.R. "Sailor Shanties (II)." _Music and Letters_ 1(3) (July 1920):256-268.

Of the more rhythmic capstan shanties, the following rollicking tune (known to every sailor) is a fair sample:-

JOHNNY COMES DOWN TO HILO.

I nebber see de like since I bin born,
When a big buck nigger wid de sea boots on,
Sez Johnny come down to Hilo, O poor old man.
Oh wake her, Oh shake her, Oh wake dat gel wid de blue dress on,
When Johnny comes down to Hilo, O poor old man.

In his collection of the following year, ...

1921        Terry, Richard Runciman. _The Shanty Book, Part I_. London: J. Curwen & Sons.

...he presents the same, yet with more lyrics. These may be lyrics (probably, I think) that he didn't have space for in the earlier article. However, there is also the possibility that he tacked on lyrics from another source to flesh out and expand the song to a perform-able version (something he also admits to have done, in general). Terry sought to present "ideal" versions of the chanties, and tweaked them according to that concept. However, they were "based" in versions he once heard or deliberately collected. Here is what he says about this specific song:

This is clearly of negro origin. I learnt several variants of it, but for its present form I am indebted to Capt. W.J. Dowdy.

Keep in mind, FWIW, that Terry had also read Bullen and Sharp's works, above.

Here is the song text.

4. Johnny come down to Hilo

1. I nebber see de like since I bin born,

When a big buck nigger wid de sea boots on,

Says "Johnny come down to Hilo.
 Poor old man."

Oh wake her, oh, shake her,

Oh wake dat gel wid de blue dress on,

When Johnny comes down to Hilo.
 Poor old man.

2. I lub a little gel across de sea,

She's a Badian beauty and she sez to me,

"Oh Johnny," etc.

3. Oh was you ebber down in Mobile Bay

Where dey screws de cotton on a summer day?

When Johnny, etc.


4. Did you ebber see de ole Plantation Boss

And de long-tailed filly and de big black hoss?

When Johnny, etc.

5. I nebber seen de like since I bin born

When a big buck nigger wid de sea boots on,

Says "Johnny come down," etc.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 06:49 PM

Very interesting sources. Here's another one.
John Dixon Long, 1857, Pictures of Slavery, pp. 197-198.

William Rino sold Henry Silvers;
Hilo ! Hilo !
Sold him to the Georgy trader;
Hilo ! Hilo !
His wife she cried and children bawled,
Hilo ! Hilo !
Sold him to the Georgy trader;
Hilo ! Hilo !

The above from Dena J. Epstein, 1977, Sinful Tunes and Spirituals, University of Illinois Press.
She says other songs in Long's book.
----------------

Fare ye well, ye white folks all!
Wo-o-o-o-o-o!
And fare ye well, ye niggers too!
Wo-o-o-o-o-o!
I holler dis time, I holler no mo'!
Wo-o-o-o-o-o!
etc.
W. H. Venable, 1858, Down South Before the War; Record of a Ramble ...., , Ohio Archaeological and Historical Society, Pub. 2 (1889)

There are many more of these reminiscences. I think every literate person who took a trip to the South must have written his recollections and/or published his notes.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 06:50 PM

The above from Dena J. Epstein (cited above). She has a long bibliography in her book.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 06:57 PM

1924        Colcord, Joanna C. _Roll and Go_. London: Heath Cranton.

I don't have the full version of Colcord's text with me, and my only question is where she says she got her version from.

In any case, the verse she gives -- both text and music -- can be seen as absolutely identical to Terry's. She makes reference to Bullen in the introductory notes.

***

1934    Lomax, John A. and Alan Lomax. _American Ballads and Folk Songs_. New York: Macmillan.

This simply contained a reprint of Colcord's presentation (i.e. Terry's).

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 07:06 PM

1946        Hatfield, James Taft. "Some Nineteenth Century Shanties." _Journal of American Folklore_ 59(232): 108-113.

In 1886, prior to July, Hatfield traveled from Pensacola to Nice on the bark AHKERA, during which time he noted his chanties from the crew, who were all Black men from Jamaica.

10. SHAKE HER UP
Shake her up and make her go!
O, shake that girl with a blue dress on!
O me Johnny come along, too ma high low,
This poor old man!