BS: Politics ruin entertainment value

Subject: BS: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: wilco
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:07 PM

Isn't it presumptuous of entertainers to think that they have any special insight into anything, much less foreign affairs and international politics? I don't want to know what an entertainer's opinions are about religion or politics. If they want to pontificate, they either have an ego problem, or they are in the wrong field. I really want to know where Hulk Hogan stands on abortion. Or, where James Taylor stands on tariff law. Or, where Jaonny Cash stands on
the International Monetary Fund. Or, the Dixie Chicks on Bush.

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:09 PM

right on!

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Frankham
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:11 PM

Tell it to Rush Limbaugh.

Frank

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:16 PM

In my experience I'd say they are every bit as smart as politicians and have, just as you do, every right to hold and express an opinion.

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: mooman
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:29 PM

I agree Pink Lad.

moo

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: NicoleC
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 06:36 PM

Isn't it presumptuous of audience members to think that their opinion is of greater insight than the performer's?

Vote with your attendance. I have no desire to hear Ricky Skaggs pontificate about God, for example, so I'd never go see a show of his. Others disagree (obviously!) since so many folks go see his shows.

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Gareth
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 06:39 PM

Well, wearing my other hat as an election agent (UK),
folk tunes go well over loudspeakers

In 1992 I used " Morgans March" in Caerphilly.

In 1997 - Canterbury again "Morgans March",

In 1999 - Canterbury " 3 score and 10"

IN 2001 - Caerphilly - "Morgans March" - Again !

Suggestions are awaited for the Welsh Assembly Elections in May 2003, I am tempted to use "The Shoals of Herring", but I am open to suggestions - bearing in mind that due to the "Unfortunte" resignation of Ron Davies we don't have a candidate untill Tuesday night.

Any thoughts fellow 'Catters ????

Superstion says I will not be using "Garryowen" - Though in the past that might have been appropriate for the Labour Party !!

Gareth

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 06:58 PM

Well... with a president with a C- average in school, who spent a large amount of his life putting illegal substances into his system to scramble his gray matter, my assumption is that the Dixie Chicks are likly smarter. As to their opinon, as Charlie Sheehan sais, because I am an actor does not mean I have a right to my opinion.
Besides, who do you think wrote the national anthem, an artist or a politician. So, when artists agree with you it is ok for them to have an opion eh? How do you feel about Charlston Heston?
Cheers, all the best
Larry
PS I am much more offended by the idea that when a vote is about to go against you in the UN you cut off the vote... kinda Florida all over aint it???

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 07:06 PM

I think that in general expressing an opinion on a political or controverial subject is better done through the song than through the spiel.

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Frankham
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 08:36 PM

Pete Seeger wouldn't exist as an entertainer I think if it hadn't been for his political motivation as a performer. Don't think it hurt him one bit. Woody Guthrie or Big Bill Broonzy likewise.

I think it depends upon how skillfully or artfully it's done. If it's too heavy handed someone could fall asleep but mostly it's about people getting offended if they don't agree with it. My opinion, who cares what they say as long as they like the music.

I've heard jingoism by plenty of acts whom I've admired and it really didn't bother me. Sometimes they've said stuff that I don't agree with but I just figure what the hell, that's their privilege as an American to have passion and opinions.

Frank

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 08:54 PM

This might be a good place to say how disturbed I and a number of others were during a Ricky Skaggs concert in Juneau, Alaska. Unless he was just playing to the crowd, the man is both anti-Semitic and a gay basher. (I would love to say a 'basher who is gay'!)

Because of it, I would not go to see him again.

To my regret, I didn't call him on it, nor did anyone else...

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:01 PM

One more thing... the majority of the American religious leaders as well as the world's religious leaders are against this war... do their comments ruin their entertainment value?
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Willie-O
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:01 PM

Well Frank I'm an odd one to be telling an American this but as Jack Lemmon said in the movie "Missing": "No, it's not my privilege, it's my RIGHT!!!"

And I reckon it's your right as a human being, not just an American.

I think people take more leadership than they might want to admit from their entertainment icons... starting with choosing who to admire. And we know, having followed someone's career for a long time, whether they are consistent, serious, and articulate about their opinions, or are just testing the waters. For example Susan Sarandon, Steve Earle, Bruce Springsteen--these people are serious about their principles, they're not just blowin' in the wind.

You might like Tom Clancy, I prefer John LeCarre, whose books show a fascinating evolution of consciousness from Cold Warrior to rational leftist.

Natalie Maines and her bandmates have taken a courageous stand, considering the general political slant of the country music industry, which drapes itself in the flag at every chance. I'm waiting to see where they go with it, it's a good start, nothing more or less.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:12 PM

I've known some staunch, virtuous conservatives who once voted for an actor who was running for president. True.

Clint

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: GUEST,Jambo1874
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:19 PM

I think that entertainers should be free to comment (or perform) about any topic that they care about - First Amendment, and all that. The audience is free to choose whether to listen or not.

And anyway, why criticise performers for mixing politics and entertainment? Politicians have done the same for years, to the detriment of political discourse.

Mind you, I wish I could recall the name of the cynic who suggested that the first ever protest song was a CIA conspiracy.

:^)

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Willie-O
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:20 PM

Ebbie: Ricky Skaggs anti-Semitic? I thought the current style among right-wing Christians was pro-Semitism, anti-Arabism.

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:29 PM

Isn't it presumptuous of entertainers to think that they have any special insight into anything...

Certainly no more presumptious than arrogant George Bush Jr. thinking that he does, that his view is the only 'correct' view, and his branding anyone who disagrees with him a traitor.

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:46 PM

I can't believe I've read commentary against political outspokenness on a "folk music" message board. People like Ochs, Dylan, Guthrie, and Seeger aside, the "tradition" of political commentary in music is about as "folk" as you can get. Isn't it? "Vicar of Bray" and all that? Christ, I thought that's at least part of what folk music is FOR.

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:50 PM

Glad you asked, Willie-O! If he said it here, he has said it at other places...

During his 'patter' he said something like "I'm glad to be here in Juneau. Jewsnose, you know." And then to make sure we heard him, he repeated it.

A little later he mentioned two men (I no longer remember who they are, although they were names we recognized) and said with a chuckle, "I guess we know which one of them will be picking out the curtains."

Seeing it on paper it doesn't sound as bad as it sounded in person. I really wish I had called out clearly, "What's your problem?" And I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing we had done something about it. But the moment went by so fast, it was hard to grasp that he had actually said it.

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 10:07 PM

I don't care where Hulk Hogan stands on abortion either. But I do very much care where people stand on the Bush/Iraq issue.
And if a Dixie Chick or a Sean Penn can use their notoriety get a few people to reconsider their entrenched jingoistic attitudes, more power to 'em.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 10:38 PM

"Vicar of Bray" is a very useful song to keep on hand in any political administration. That's the beauty of it!

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: GUEST,Sing Out - Speak Out Too
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 11:33 PM

Politics is far to important to leave to the politicians. I do think however that an entertainer should deliver their messages in short doses. Of course I wish that the politicians would too.

Listen - If you don't like the message you can always let your mind wander and write a shopping list, or compose a letter to a friend. But I have to salute the Dixie Chicks for speaking out. It's going to lose them a lot of ticket and CD sales. No doubt that the rest of Nashville that objects to their views will have something to say about it. And that will be considered patriotic.

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 12:06 AM

I agree Stilly! The Vicar of Bray is quite accurate...

I think that "the people's issues" can be given adequate coverage with song choice, and the 'pontificating' between songs can be best left to the audience... I find that a simple 'contextual' explaination is quite sufficient, and gives the listeners plenty of room for interpretations... Preachers gather denominations, and choirs... ttr

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 12:17 AM

I'd probably pay more attention to a bush on a Dixie Chick than the other way around, myself...but that could just be me...


A

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 04:36 AM

Please don't leave the vital things that affect us all - to politicians.

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: alanabit
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 04:39 AM

Politics - like religion - often works better if it informs an artist's work rather than dominates it. It is quite possible to be political and entertaining at the same time, but there is an art to it. I recall Bob Davenport's terse comment, "This is a song about Durham County Prison - which is one of the few places in the world where the working class is alllowed."

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Marion
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 03:32 PM

I too am exploiting my prestige as a musician for political purposes. I've been busking with a poster in my case informing people about upcoming anti-war demos. As long as people are peeking into my case anyway...

Seriously though, we all have to stand up for peace (or stand up for war, I suppose, if you really must) where we are and with what we have. I don't think that celebrities have any more special insight than the rest of us, but they do have a tool that most of us don't have. If they want to use that tool for what they believe in, more power to them.

Marion

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 04:06 PM

Joe Offer--
Could you move this one downstairs? Clearly BS

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 04:15 PM

Once again I have an aggresively moderate position so it'll just drift up into the ether, but.....

There are folks who'll now BUY Dixie Chicks Albums, BECAUSE one of them made a rude crack? She's apologized big time, so what are these folks gonna do....take the albums BACK to the store? After two days?

Man....if the "Chicks" had simply said "No War" over the mikes and then sang a song, it would have had so much more impact.

And I'd sure prefer if the listening public's taste was such that they boycotted Chicks' records because they're slick, muzaky, and forgettable rather than cuz of a dumb comment on stage.

When I first started becoming passionate about Bluegrass, I accepted the fact that the music was made by men who were against EVERYTHING I believed in. It's not easy. You've really gotta Love the music....but think of the many Jewish kids in the sixties who kept this music alive and toured with the old-timers. Players like Grisman, Ralph Rinzler, Richard Greene etc. I was around a bit of it (and even being an aetheist) I know I couldn't have stood it. On the other hand, the old time Bluegrass guys always carried guns as well...so I probably WOULD have kept my mouth shut, ha ha!!

Rick

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 04:21 PM

I am disappointed that the Dixie Chicks have apologised for telling the truth, though like Rick says, they could have done it in a much more effective way.

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 04:27 PM

She apologized very indirectly, for disrespect to the office of the POS, not for saying she was ashamed he was a Texan.

A

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Willie-O
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 04:39 PM

Quote:(from the Salon report of the apology:)

On Friday, Maines said the group is "witnessing a huge anti-American sentiment as a result of the perceived rush to war" while on tour in Europe.

"While war may remain a viable option, as a mother, I just want to see every possible alternative exhausted before children and American soldiers' lives are lost," she said. "I love my country. I am a proud American."


Frankly, I think this makes her a confused American, and there's no shortage of them these days. But she's still got the right idea, basically. Too bad Bush can't get it, even in this watered-down form. (I'd like to think she is concerned about Iraqi adults as well as children.)

Oddly, she left out apple pie.

Willie-O
not really surprised.

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 04:41 PM

Nashville, Tennessee-AP -- The Dixie Chicks' Natalie Maines is apologizing for saying she's "ashamed" of President Bush.

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 04:45 PM

My point was, kat that to make a wisecrack (no matter HOW accurate one might feel it is) is not going to have the weight of simply saying firmly "No War".

To a Conservative, her initial crack is gonna seem the same as Ricky Scaggs' "Jewnose" reference is to a person who can't believe that attitudes like that are still ALL around.

Boy, would John Lennon be an asset right now. Anyone else thought about him lately? Think I'll sing "Imagine" in the basement tonight.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: toadfrog
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 05:28 PM

I agree with Dick Greenhaus. If you want to start a BS thread, you ought to label it as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 01:06 PM

Went and browsed through a couple of my antique SING-OUTS this morning and guess what? Even in 1953 they were getting letters pro and con about politics with music.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: DougR
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 01:33 PM

I agree Wilco.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 03:01 PM

The following is a link to a story in The Independent.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=387599

Subject: RE: BS: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: DougR
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 06:03 PM

Bruce: I guess it could be said that anyone who forms an opinion based on what Sean Penn or a Dixie Chick says isn't rowing with all the oars in the water either, right?

Greg F: I assume from your post that you believe you have as much information about the situation in Iraq as Bush does. Blair too, I suppose. Is that correct?

Dick and Toad: I agree the poster should have labled the thread BS but wouldn't the word "politics" give you a slight hint?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 08:18 PM

Of course it could easily have developed into a song-centred thread.

It's the songs that carry the message, if there is a message. I've always admired the way Vin Garbutt will give a long rambling and hilarious introduction - and then launch into a deadly serious song, which has nothing to do with what he's been talking about, maybe with a couple of words or more typically less, to warn people what's coming.

Bob Dylan of course has almost always studiously avoided any kind of introduction, believing in letting the songs speak for themselves.

The other thing of course is singing the songs in a context where that in itself is expressing solidarity with some kind of struggle or movement. On a picket line, at a rally, or a benefit, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 08:35 PM

Well, danged!

What the Hell is this, Russia?

For a hundred years folks musicans have been singing about the world that they see around them. No, they weren't recorded until the late 20's when some of the early country folk blues artists were recorded but, even then, there were glimpses into their realiities.

As folk musicans, we a bound by *duty* to try to create songs that will give a glimpse of *our* realities. People have mentioned Woody Guthrie and Dylan but there are so many folk musicans who took it upon themselve to fullfill that *duty* to tell the story!

Now, if during these times you want to write songs about stuff that either happened a long time ago or ois nothin' more that "Yeah, yeah, baby" love crap then feel free! Just don't think that you are living up to the *duty* of a folk muscian...

That's my *opinion* on the subject...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: InOBU
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 08:57 PM

The question is not, apparently from the Dixie Chicks thread, if it is about Music and the Music industry, but whether some folks wish to marginalize certain beliefs or not. Now, I am not one to get all pissy about this, but we are living in times in America when free speach is limited by point of view, in that what is main stream is that about which those in power agree. Ah well, what else is new.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Hrothgar
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 03:47 AM

Whether entertainers have political opinions is up to hem.

Whether I listen and/or agree is up to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics ruin entertainment value
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:44 PM

So you think they are abusing the first ammendment.
You think these people are yelling fire in a theatre.

There is a fire in the theatre.

Thank god they are yelling fire.